Latest / GEL & Tell / Ep 10 - Josh Croggon: From PT to Fully Online (the good, the bad & what no one tells you)
Transcript
- G: welcome back to episode 10 of Gel and Tell. Can you believe you're in double digits? Nora: Yes, because that's what we do. stick to things. Isn't that right, Josh? Josh Croggon: Yes, we do. We are relentless. Nora doesn't miss and I'm sure Georgia doesn't either. Nora: Yeah. we've got another ⁓ very special guest joining us, Mr. Josh Croghan. Hello. ⁓ course, thanks for being here. Josh is a natural Josh Croggon: Thanks for having me. Nora: World champion bodybuilder, as you can see probably from the background for anyone who's watching the podcast with all of the trophies also a full-time online coach his coaching company, Just Coaching. years being the online space, creating content, documenting the process also sponsored by some pretty cool brands, I would say. to add to that, Josh is also my coach, guys. So for anyone that's been following the bodybuilding journey that we have discussed multiple times on this podcast. Josh has been the person behind the scenes for the last three years, I believe. Yeah, Bing. I think so. You had to put up with me for that long. Josh Croggon: Has it been that long? Wow. G: He's responsible for the Vitas, the famous Nora Vita. Josh Croggon: That is crazy. Nora: He's responsible for the biceps, yeah. Josh Croggon: the wall. G: Nora's biceps are quite famous amongst our circles because they are so big. Josh Croggon: Right. Nora: Josh has had the of coaching for the last three years. I am of course, Josh's favorite client. I have a lot of respect for him. He's great human being and I'm excited to get into this conversation, which, the goal would be to hopefully help a lot of in the industry that are either aspiring coaches or current PTs wanting to get. into the online space because Josh, you've had a fantastic journey the last few years. I remember when I first joined you, started, you were still doing some PT. So I've seen that transition going fully online, which has been pretty, pretty cool. But yeah, over to you. mean, maybe give us a quick version. have summarized what I could. What do you do and who do you work with? Josh Croggon: who don't I work with? That's a, that's a better question. yeah, like Nora said, I'm an online coach. ⁓ I would say like ⁓ over last couple of years, I've very much transitioned to pretty much only working with natural bodybuilders. previous to was, know, just general lifestyle. right way back when it was PT, ⁓ I have actually, I've been working in the fitness space now for about 10 years. think it'd be 10 years in September. So I've, I'm a little bit of an OG, you could say, ⁓ an unk. I believe that's what the kids call it these days. ⁓ an unk is like ⁓ that's been around for a while. Nora: Yeah. G: Young, what an unk! Is it like meant to be short for uncle or am I, cause you're old enough to be an uncle. No, didn't hear that one before. Josh Croggon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm a bit of an unk in the fitness space. PT for like five years, open my own little studio, convert my dad's garage into what I called the time was the Mecca. It was ⁓ so sick. then ⁓ from there, know, I did my first prep out of that gym, got into the space and then as you know, my reputation within bodybuilding has grown, my online coaching business has as well. unfortunately I had to knock it on the head, you know, the old PT stuff, but I think, you know, letting go of that and then going all in on the online was a hundred percent the best thing that's ever happened to me. I've been doing, I've been full-time online coaching for four and a half years now. Did a little bit of PTing for two years, you know, like on that like kind of crossover, but yeah, now it is all online and it is all great fun. No stress at all. Ultimate freedom. Like, like what everyone tells you. No, I'm joking. is good though. I'm, ⁓ I'm very grateful for the position that I'm in. like, we've already discussed, I work with some pretty cool brands, that have all come through like the bodybuilding stuff and like me documenting the journey. and yeah, just grateful to. have all these opportunities. G: That's amazing. I didn't know that you'd had your own studio and it had kind of gone on that journey. How did you get into fitness in the first place? Because was there a Josh in the gym before there was a bodybuilder Josh? When did that start? Have you always been sporty? Josh Croggon: Yeah, but I've always been a pretty sporty guy. I started training when I was like 16 to try and get a little bit more, I don't know, muscular for playing football. very quickly, I think I realized that I enjoyed the training more than I did the actual playing football. And then, you know, when you enjoy something, you get good at it. It then has more negatives to other aspects of life. So, I found myself quite injury prone when it came to playing football. G: Hmm. Josh Croggon: ⁓ and then that just forced me down the bodybuilding even more. I ended up with like two AC pretty big, pretty bad ACL injuries. and then that just forced me to go all in on the, ⁓ the bodybuilding, which again, you know, wasn't a great time, but it's ended up becoming the best thing ever. G: to you. Yeah, it's like the center of your business and world, I guess. Did you have to have surgery for your ACL? Josh Croggon: Yeah, I've had three operations over the space of 18 months, was ⁓ It was like two and a half years of rehab. Terrible. G: ⁓ my god, I've got a few friends that are going through similar things and it's horrible, especially when you're someone that enjoys the gym so much. How did that impact your training? That must have been a journey in itself. Josh Croggon: Yeah, well, I think that was the start of like me becoming a men's physique competitor. I'm not, I'm not sure how much you know, but in bodybuilding, you've got bodybuilding, which is wearing like the tiny little thong and you've got classic, which is a slightly longer trunk. And then you've got what I do, which is men's physique, which is wearing, wearing board shorts down to your knees. So your legs aren't really on show. G: I didn't know you were wearing the wrong fit. So does Gio wear the shorts too? Because I don't think I've seen Gio in a thong before. ⁓ So you, so the less clothing, so walk me through this guys because I'm a bodybuilding noob. So you get, as you get bigger, do you wear less? Nora: Yeah. No! Josh Croggon: No. Pretty much. So if you've got big legs, you won't compete against me. You'll go and do the bodybuilding, which is tiny trunks. legs aren't your thing, or if you've got a really big upper body like Gio does, then the board shorts is kind of like where you sit. So my injury basically meant that I could only train upper body for about two years. And everything on lower body was just like rehab stuff. Nora: Basically. G: Hmm Josh Croggon: So yeah, that kind of like determined my direction from day one. Nora: What made you ⁓ to compete? Do you remember that switch from training ⁓ football to then getting the injuries and being like, I want to step on stage? Did you have someone that you looked up to that was competing at the time? Josh Croggon: Yeah. ⁓ my introduction to specifically men's physique was pretty wild. I've got an uncle who at the time when I was like 16, 17 years old, he was a window cleaner. And one the guys that he cleaned the windows for was ⁓ Ryan who if gee, I don't expect you to know that is he's ⁓ three He's now three time Mr. Olympia. So he's Nora: Okay. Josh Croggon: the best is king. So ⁓ when I was like 17, my uncle showed me like this guy and he was like, ⁓ he's doing these shows out in America. He's sponsored by like USN. He's got like his photos all over the gym that he trains at. And I was like in awe of this guy. was like, ⁓ my God, he's so cool. I wanna be like him. G: Thank Josh Croggon: That was my introduction, like my inspiration. yeah, wild. G: Have you? Nora: I mean recently, yeah he's met him, I was just gonna say that. You even have a YouTube video with him now. Josh Croggon: Yeah, it's gone full circle. The first, when I won my, like, so in bodybuilding, you've got like certain tiers. You'd compete as an amateur and then your goal as an amateur is to win your pro card and then you go and compete all over the world as a pro. When I won my pro card, I was wearing shorts that Ryan designed. So it was like his brand. And about a year after that, G: Mm. Josh Croggon: went to a Gymshark event and Ryan was there and his wife saw me and was like, I know you, you wore Ryan's shorts on stage. And I was like, shit, she knows who I am. So she like pulled me out of this queue and was like, Ryan, who's this? And Ryan was like, ⁓ Josh, nice to meet you. Thank you for wearing my shorts. I was just like, what the fuck's going on? G: ⁓ my god. Oh my god, that's amazing! How cool! Your idol knew who you were and you had no idea until you met her. That's f***ing cool! Josh Croggon: Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And then it gets, it gets crazier. So two years ago, through my own podcast, ended up kind of becoming friends with someone at Gymshark, a guy called Ash, very cool guy. is the head of male brand, I believe. and at the of last year, he was part of a team that was designing ⁓ Ryan's board shorts the Olympia last year. And he was like, right, we need someone that's in the industry. We need someone that knows the space. Do you want to be part of the team to design the shots? I was like, are you fucking kidding? Like, hell yeah. So all last year, like I was going to gym shark pretty much every month, to doing like measurement fittings, design stuff, like you name it. And obviously spent a decent amount of time with Ryan throughout all that. So he ended up wearing a pair of shorts that I was like part of. for when he won his third Olympia. So like the craziest full circle moment that you could ever imagine. Like, and I still look at it now, like, I can't believe bodybuilding has provided me with these opportunities. It's the maddest thing. Yeah. Nora: Yeah, that's so cool. Those are the shorts that Gio will be wearing on stage this year. Because when they came out, Josh was like, guys, they're live. And I went and got them for Gio ⁓ as a gift. So yeah, very cool seeing that. Josh Croggon: It's so cool. I've seen a few people wear them on stage now and it's like, I can't get my head around it. It's the coolest thing that I've ever been part of. G: that's really, really cool. What a story. ⁓ And to think it started with Unc, the window cleaner. Josh Croggon: Yeah. Nora: You Josh Croggon: Yeah, show me this guy that was on the cover of 30 magazines and stuff. Wild. G: sick. Nora: ⁓ of that. So then you started your training journey, like what then got you into PTing? Josh Croggon: and simple. I've quite enjoyed helping people. I I don't I have no idea why, but I've always been more driven by having an impact than kind of, you know, making shit loads of money and all that kind of stuff. And I found that like with my own training, I'd want to help people more than I would want to train myself. So naturally it's like, you know, I enjoy being in the gym. I enjoy helping people. PTing is gonna be like the perfect fit. So when I was 18, going through like all my injuries, went and got my PT qualifications, started working in a few different gyms throughout like my local area. ⁓ then it just kind of like grew and snowballed from there. Nora: Yeah. G: Nice, where is your local area by the way, Josh? Josh Croggon: So I live in Sheffield, but at the time I was living in Rotherham. So I was like working all over South Yorkshire. think at my like busiest, I was working in four different gyms, teaching spin classes, ⁓ ⁓ doing all sorts of shit just to try and build my reputation. Yeah, ⁓ was a fun time. G: Yeah, it's, but it is part of the parcel, I think with it, right? Like I think a lot of new personal trainers that we've come across in the last few years, see this picture of like an online coaching business and see people like you and think, well, I want to be like Josh. Like I want to do that. And they think they can almost like skip some of the steps. And I think, you know, if you've not got experienced coaching people on the gym floor, you've never run a class, like you don't know how people move and you can't like, coached yet, because you've just qualified. I don't feel like you deserve to have a successful online business yet. And cancel me. But I do think that that is really important to become a really good coach, to have that grounding and experience. Do you think it helped you become the coach that you are today? Josh Croggon: a hundred percent like when you're in a gym, you see every type of person when you're online, you end up seeing a lot of one type of person. So you don't know how to like deliver a coaching service to everyone. You kind of like, right, that's the person that I want to work with because I've seen, I don't know, AJ Morris do it or, know, whoever the top coaches are and kind of like forget that there is this huge demographic of people and like your, your coaching business isn't going to be working with the dream client a hundred times. It's going to be working with a hundred different people or, know, even 20 different people. And, and yeah, you're absolutely right. You've almost got to earn the right to have type of business. And everyone, everyone wants his quick fix nowadays. No one wants to have to be patient or do a lot of boring. Nora: Yeah. Josh Croggon: shifts or work for free for a bit. It's all like, I want to live in Dubai and earn fucking 20 grand a month. Like, it's just not, it's just not realistic. Nora: I think the other thing is you have to earn the right to like be a good coach because like coaching is not writing a training program. Like a lot of people think, ⁓ because I can program for myself, I can suddenly coach people. I find in any, not even in the fitness industry, coaching in general is how you deal with people, how you manage expectations, how you manage their feelings, their emotions, like a lot of a huge part of the coaching, especially with you working with competitors, I imagine is managing everything outside of the training rather than the training itself or the nutrition and stuff. And that's what coaching is all about. And that in person experience helps shape that, isn't it? And like, it helps you like understand different types of people before you get on board. Josh Croggon: Absolutely. could talk ⁓ day on this. If didn't do the in-person stuff for as long as what I did with the variety of people that I did it with, I really don't think that I'd be in the position that I am now with my coaching business. ⁓ And think everyone just sees where it's at now and just think that that's how it's been all the time. It's just, it's so far from the truth, honestly. Nora: Yeah. G: Yeah, it must have been quite a journey in terms of building the online stuff. And it was gradual. Like you said, you were still doing some in-person stuff as you were scaling the online business. So what did the early days of your online coaching business actually look like if that was what four and a half years ago you said? Josh Croggon: Yeah. my light introduction to online coaching was almost like having it as a bolt onto my in-person services. So it'd like safe on an average week. I'd do 50 PT sessions. If someone wanted more sessions ⁓ that I couldn't provide them, I'd put them ⁓ on online training platform as well. So I use, use app called true coach. I have done pretty much from day one. I think it's great. basically just offer an additional service on there so that I've their session with me plus two or three sessions on True Coach. And that was like, right, okay, I'm getting used to, you know, almost like monitoring things online and like keeping someone accountable without having to, you know, have them in the gym with me at all times. That was like, it was almost like a soft launch of online coaching. And then, you know, like most people, COVID happened ⁓ ⁓ became, the only thing that I was doing. And I'm again, like very, very grateful that it did happen because I don't think I would have ever took that leap. think I'd have just, I don't know, just been Josh in the gym and being grateful that, you know, my diary's always booked and I worked with pretty good people, but it weren't scalable. So yeah, COVID happened, everyone moved online. And then that was kind of like, right, okay, now I need to make this process better and... almost like manage my time better and just be like the coach that I'm in person, but transferring it to an online setting. Yeah. Nora: I that. you remember your first fully online client? Because I remember you still people from Australia and stuff, isn't it, as well? You work with people ⁓ all the world. ⁓ what you your first few clients fully online that weren't hybrid? Josh Croggon: So my first ever online client signed up with me on the 2nd of September 2019 and it was a guy called Phil Hachuk. Phil, shout out Phil, I love Phil. I met Phil when I was doing a gap yard in Australia. We became really good mates and then kind of like almost like pen pals after that. And I remember the date so specifically because it was the day after my first ever show. G: you ⁓ Josh Croggon: So I went and did that and the day after it was like, I wanna do the same, let's do it. I was like, ⁓ my God, it's happening. The dream is occurring. So yeah, Phil signed up and then I had Phil for seven and years, six years, seven years in time, like competed a lot. ⁓ He's one of my best mates in the world. ⁓ Ended going to Australia to go to his wedding. Yeah. So that was like, that was the first one. And I would say like, the thing that like got the ball rolling was documenting I was doing to some degree, you know, posting my workouts, posting the show stuff. but keeping it truly like authentic to myself, you know, rather than like trying to copy what people were doing. was like, I'd type the way that I talk. ⁓ I'd. Nora: Yeah. G: No. Josh Croggon: keep it extremely honest rather than trying to dress it up to be this amazing, wonderful thing that I'm doing. It was just all like, it was just authentic to me. And some people bought into it and once someone's got an interest in you and you're consistent with your results and all the rest of it, they are more likely or more keen to want to work with you. So I'd say that's kind of like what got the ball rolling. I wouldn't put it entirely down to competing, but it was more the fact that I was... consistent with everything and I did all the things that I said that I was going to do. G: practice what you preach. Yeah, like your own social proof. Love that. Have you had a lot of clients like compete then? Is that kind of like the main thing that happens in the business now? People going on stage as opposed to like general body transformation? Is it competitive bodybuilding? Josh Croggon: 100 % Yeah. I would say that everyone that I work with is a bodybuilder. Some people won't step on stage. Some people, well, I'd say like 90 % of my clients are planning on stepping on stage, but even the ones that aren't, they've got a bodybuilder's mindset. You know, they've got an interest in bodybuilding. They've got, you know, like the same training styles as a bodybuilder. None of them are that interested in high rocks or that kind of thing. It's just kind of. G: . Josh Croggon: You know, it's all in on the, the hypertrophy, the bulking, the cutting, all that kind of stuff. G: Yeah, I didn't hear quite a bit about this from Nora my god, Josh, be in your session we did on Monday. Fuck my life. ⁓ shoulders have not recovered. It's Wednesday afternoon and I literally am like, so yeah, that hypertrophy stuff guys does definitely work. ⁓ That's really cool. There's quite a lot of mindset coaching that must go into this then if you're getting in the position to be able to like put on a little song on stage. Nora: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. G: do you work with people on like getting in the right headspace to not, I mean, let's put it bluntly, you stood in a line in a song being compared to the people stood next to you in your of carrot coloured as well. so ⁓ like, do you help, like, how we help someone not feel like a tit and fit like to feel like I'm confident, like, I can win this, like not be looking, you know, ⁓ my God, like, they're Nora: You G: Delta's bigger, like how do we do this, right? It's hard, surely. Josh Croggon: Yeah, it is very hard. I think the thing that I try to get all my clients to do is just kind of like be very aware of what they've done in the past. So like you don't just wake up one day and put tan on and step on stage. You'll go through a 20 week diet, but before that you'll go through a 40 week off season and maybe another 15 week diet before that. So you get them to look at everything that they've done to that point and start to see that. G: Mm. Josh Croggon: They are capable of doing stuff and being a version of themselves that they've never been before. And you know, just the stepping on the stage, the time, all the rest of it being judged against other people, it's just all part of the process. And you shouldn't necessarily pin too much on like the winning or, know, getting the, getting your trophy or whatever. You should just focus entirely on like, right, this is the process that I've committed myself to. This is almost like the end goal, but it's not an end goal. It's again, it's just. part of the bigger picture that you'll not be able to see for, you know, the next five years. It's really, really weird, but it is extremely deep. I like, ⁓ time I'll, you know, have a consult with anyone or have a chat with anyone on why they want to compete, there's always a really deep reason as to why they want to do it. Like there's very few people that turn around and go, ⁓ I want I just to do it for a laugh. Like ⁓ It's not that enjoyable. it's, it's more of a, I don't know. It's more like a, a deep journey that someone wants to go on because of shit that's happened in the past or they're in a weird place of the life at the minute. it's yeah, it's so it's a proper weird one. Bodybuilding. Nora: Yeah. G: It's interesting the way you describe it as like, obviously, you've got all of the inputs that go in and this like structured path. And if you focus too much on the outcome, then it might ruin the outcome. It screams like a business strategy to me, like, do you think that the way that you approach bodybuilding reflects in how you show up in your business? it Josh Croggon: 100 % yeah. it's like the transferable skills of bodybuilding. If you can commit yourself to something and you know, truly look at it and go, I'm doing everything that I can. You can take that mindset and apply it to other areas of your life. You know, it doesn't necessarily have to be business, but you know, I've got quite a lot of clients that are dads and they're like, right, if I can do this for myself, what can I do for my kids? Like how can I turn up for them the way that I turn up for myself? Like He honestly so deep and I love it. but yeah, transferable skills of bodybuilding like transcend way beyond putting on tan and ⁓ skimpy bikini. It's, ⁓ it's definitely a mindset and a skill set that you can use in, absolutely everything. Nora: Yeah. Yeah, 100%. the discipline around it and the training and the mindset around it, helps you develop as a person. much in terms of like how you show up in business but in life for your partner as well. Like, you know, obviously I'm grateful to have Gio be on a similar journey to me but like the fact that we are both going through that and we're both that disciplined and that consistent like it us like manage so many things that get thrown our way on a daily basis. So yeah, totally I think I completely agree with that. It's so transferable. Josh Croggon: Yeah. So many times in bodybuilding where you can look at it and go, ⁓ this is really quite an overwhelming period of my life. But then you get through it and you're like, ⁓ it went anywhere near as bad as what I thought it was going to be. And again, yeah, it's just that like building that mental fortitude. It's amazing. G: is who Nora: Hmm. G: takes so much resilience and discipline, I think, just like, like watching you go through like obviously, prep nor in the way you speak about it. It's very enlightening because I think it's often something that's judged quite a lot, to be honest, and like, very misunderstood from people that aren't in the industry or people that don't know bodybuilders, like, you know, there can be presumptions that it's, you know, got an eating disorder or like it's not a healthy thing to do. What's your take on that Josh in terms of like people saying that bodybuilding isn't healthy? Josh Croggon: It's defined, defined healthy. A lot of the people that are saying that it's not healthy are the same people that like a lot of like two, three takeaways a week and, you know, sleep for like four hours a night or the opposite 12 hours. it healthy. You know, when you get to the extremes of anything, it's not healthy. You know, like the run up to a show, which probably the Least healthy is that it could be, but it's the most lean that you've ever been. Same when you're in an off season and you're pushing body weight super high. It's not necessarily healthy then, but. It's such a, it's such a tricky one. always like say to people when they're like worried about my health ⁓ I can, I can reverse anything that I've done in a very short period of time so that I can push to the limit on a, you know, getting lean from, and I can pull myself out of it. within two, three weeks, be a healthier body weight with healthy, healthier composition and mindset. It's just, it's, it's, it's almost like just kind of. just pushing it to an extreme for a very short period of time rather than like staying in that state for, for a long time and it doing more like detrimental long-term effects. health is out the forefront of everything that we do, of course. Nora: I think it's strategic, know, like just like with any other sport that is, you know, a bit of an extreme sport or even like, Hirox is an example. When you look at the elite 15s, like they, you know, they plan everything so towards that day that they're competing. They can't miss, you know, a training. I bet their nutrition is very dialed in, even though it's a performance sport and not an aesthetics sport. Josh Croggon: I've tried to like compare bodybuilding to like all the sports and with bodybuilding, you've almost got to become like an elite level athlete at the amateur level. Whereas like if you're playing football, you can almost like, say if you played semi-pro, you could act like a semi-professional athlete and be fine. Whereas bodybuilding, you've almost like got to go beyond the standard that you're at and that can come across as quite extreme. So it's like, you know, you're not going to be able to get away with doing a shorter prep if you want to do well as an amateur. So you could look at it and go, you've been dieting for 30 weeks. That's so unhealthy. That's disordered, yada, yada, yada. But that's just what you've got to do to do well at a low level. And then again, like when I've competed at the highest level of natural bodybuilding, when you see the guys out there, the things that they're doing, it's not crazy different to what the people at the bottom level are doing. Nora: Yeah. Josh Croggon: So it comes across as though that it's more drastic because the standard that you're competing at is lower. that make sense? G: Yeah, it does. What are the crazy things people do then you sort of dangled that carrot then as you said some of the things they're doing seem a bit different but have you seen any crazy shit when you've been at shows or like what's the most unhinged thing you've seen a bodybuilding competition? Josh Croggon: can give you, so in you've got like the natural and the ⁓ unnaturally A friend of mine ⁓ recently an hour in a sauna whilst he'd had any water for the day and not eating any carbs for two days, trying to make weight for a show. That's quite dangerous. So that's like, you know, that's the, but that's not unheard of. That's a relatively normal thing. Normal. It's the least normal thing ever, but it's a relatively normal thing when you're trying to make way in bodybuilding. So you hear stories like that all the time. G: Yes Ha ha. That's quite scary isn't it? Did he come out like a lazen? Josh Croggon: Mmm. Yeah, yeah. But he made way, so that's all that matters. Nora: Yeah, I think one thing that I I've always liked about your coaching style been that never takes over your life. I think you've applied that in your own competitions as well, which is why me and Geo initially inquired with you is like, we didn't want to go with someone that bodybuilding was their entire life because we didn't want that to become us. And like we wanted that to be like a thing that a hobby almost like something that we just do and we enjoy and like, it's part of our life, but not necessarily takes over it. And, you know, I know you've had like your signature like picking protocols with your comms, like having a Waka Mama the night before a beer and all that stuff, which you don't typically see right Josh Croggon: I wouldn't have a beer the night before, I'd end up pissed. Nora: ⁓ I think I've seen a YouTube vlog of you having a beer before a show. ⁓ Josh Croggon: I might... I might have had a glass of champagne a few days before. Nora: Maybe, maybe, yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe that. But yeah, like how you approach it is very different to other bodybuilding coaches out there, I would say as well. Do you think that is part of like your strategy around getting the right people on board that you align with? Josh Croggon: when I look at the industry now, I there's a lot of people that are trying to create a position of authority or like, you know, they're trying to look as though they are way more hardcore than they need to be. Whereas my coaching approach, ⁓ I would say like my approach to life is what's necessary. And sometimes, Nora: Mm. Josh Croggon: It's not necessary to completely ruin your life for a bodybuilding show. Sometimes it's necessary to go out for food and have a meal with your missus or whatever to chill you out a bit. You know, that might not look like a normal thing to do for a lot of coaches because they've never done it before and they can't see the benefits of it. But for me, it's like are all necessary things. know, you... ⁓ There's no point making your life harder because your coach doesn't want to look as though, you know, they're being soft on you or, you know, won't want to get like a weird reputation for being this chill guy that I'm quite happy to have. Is a tactic of getting the in that I want to work with? Maybe a little bit. I've had it few times where like someone will come to me that's worked with a super strict coach and they'll like, almost take it the wrong way of how I'm being. Whereas like, you know, they could go, ⁓ Josh, I want to go out for an off plan meal this weekend. And I was like, yeah, that's fine. And they're like, ⁓ you've not even asked what it is. Like, well, I don't need to know really. I can't imagine you're going to go and eat, you know, entire fridge. So I think you'll be fine. And equally like what's one meal going to do for the, you know, the rest of the month that you've been perfect for. So does it, yeah, it does help with attracting the right people. But sometimes it can get misunderstood. I reckon if I wanted to have a bigger coaching business than what I do now, I could have maybe made it look more hardcore and more profound than what it is or what I think it is. But I'm happy with keeping it real and keeping it authentic to myself. Nora: Yeah. But I guess like by bringing the right people in which you have done, I mean, you do team meetups quite often. And one thing that I've noticed is like, everyone's very similar. They're different, but similar in their values and they're good fun. They don't take it too seriously. You do have the very serious bodybuilders as well. But yeah, most of your clients ⁓ are in, you know, ⁓ relationships you want to go out with their partner or want to have a bit of family time and be present and they value that stuff and they don't want bodybuilding taking over that in any way. So would you say that has allowed you to build a bit of a community within the business as well? Josh Croggon: Yeah, definitely, definitely. I think that is like the best bit about my job. Like there's so many people that like I work with and I'm like, oh, if you met this guy, like you'd get on like a house on fire. I've had it before where like last year we did a team meetup and like most coaching businesses, you end up with like the young guys, the guys that are like in the twenties and then guys that are like, you know, in the thirties. And all my young guys, all like, having met each other once, they all like booked to go on a holiday together. And I was like, I knew this was going to happen because they're all so similar. Like they're similar to me in many ways, but they're all the exact same. And it's so, it's so nice. And I don't think, I don't think you can build a coaching team like that by going like hunting for your clients. You've almost got to just be a magnet and accept that, you know, the right people going to come your way. G: I love that analogy, but I just have to ask one question before we move on from this. If the young guys aren't in their 20s, how old are the young guys? Josh Croggon: So I, my young guys are like 22 and younger. My mid twenties are like people like me. G: Okay, fine. Okay fine, was like, God are we aging over here anymore? Josh Croggon: Oh, no, there's some like 18 year olds in the team. Yeah. G: Wow, and how old do you compete? Is there an age on it? Josh Croggon: There's a teen class. Yeah. I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of the teen class. I don't think that there should be teens competing in bodybuilding. G: Really? Yeah. Okay. I'm glad you said that because that is my instant gut reaction was that sounds really like they're not ready for it yet. Josh Croggon: Yeah, yeah. And I tell all of my teens that. But then it's like, you know, I've now got the opportunity, if I am working with a teenager, to help them on their journey as healthy as possible. You know, to make sure that they don't get too bogged down in like, you know, being lean or like focusing too much on social media and trying to like grow all that kind of shite. Cause it's all, know, veneer nonsense. Yeah. G: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, had no idea that you could compete in your teams. That's my mind a little bit. But I think that's really good the approach that you've got. And you're right, like if they're going to do it, you'd rather them do it safely. Nora: Speaking of growing the business then, have you invested in the business before? Whether that would be coach, a mentor? Josh Croggon: No, no. Like for years and years it was like literally just organic growth. And know, kind of relying on word of mouth. ⁓ But then 12 months ago I did hire a business coach for, I think it were about three months. And I can't lie, it was the most money that the business ⁓ has ever ever. ⁓ But it the least amount of fun that I've ever had working. Nora: Yeah. Really. Josh Croggon: because I did everything that they said and signed up loads of new clients, but there were so many people that I just weren't aligned with. You know, working with like just people that people all over the world that either the potentially didn't know me quite as well as what, my British clients do. and that I just didn't enjoy as much. So was like, yeah, all right. The strategies have worked fair play. Nora: Hmm. G: Hmm. Josh Croggon: respect, people that are able to scale their business to like, you know, multiple six figures a year. But for me, like I got into coaching because I enjoy coaching. I'm quite all right with slower growth if growth is good growth. And I'm working with people like, like Gio and Nora. But you guys came to me, I didn't go hunting for you. Like ⁓ it's, I'd rather that consistently over the space of two years than. G: Yeah. Josh Croggon: like ⁓ aggressive three month growth spurt where you're working with a lot of people that you just don't get on with or they're bought into you and vice versa. Yeah, it a weird one. Nora: Yeah. G: really interesting and something that screams for me is that you've obviously got great retention because like Norris, I've worked with you what three years? Who was it earlier that worked for you for seven years, first client? Like ⁓ you get people in, you look after them so well, your service is brilliant that they stay. So like it's not necessarily like you need to be growing aggressively to grow your business. Because three months to work with a business coach isn't a very long time, to be honest. That's quite a short burst. So it obviously wasn't feeling aligned, which, Nora: line. Josh Croggon: very quick, honestly, after about six weeks, I was like, right. Nice one. ⁓ my, for, for numbers, I went from like, I did like a nine K month and then went from nine to 17 K in a few weeks. And, but that extra money, I would have rather have not earned it. It was, it just crap. It were honestly, it was so, it was so, shit, but ⁓ I with it because I will pay him for it. And. G: Wow. Nora: Mm. Josh Croggon: I kind of wanted to see if I'd get to, you know, that like, that good core of people eventually. And I just didn't. I did a comparison at the start of this year of the client retention of people that like came through working with a mentor versus the organic growth. And the mentor signups were like an average of three and a half months, which is not a long time. Um, whereas my organic, it's like 17 months. which is, yeah, what would you rather have? Yeah. G: Yeah, I mean, there's no Nora: mean, long term as well, even if you sign more clients, but they only stay for three months, the lifetime value is so different. 17 months of someone paying you X amount versus three and a half. G: Yeah. But also all the other things that come with ongoing retention, right? So when someone stays longer, they get better results. When they get better results, they're happier. They tell more people you get more referrals, but also it's way more rewarding for you because there's nothing more shit than having a client that isn't winning. Like I actually, feel sometimes more upset and anxious about someone not getting results than they probably do. So just want them to succeed and it's so shit when they don't. Speaking of which, have you experienced that when someone's trying and things aren't working and like if someone is genuinely following all the steps and everything you're coaching them to do has there ever been an example where it's just not working and then they're like Josh like this isn't working the coaching isn't working I'm leaving and like throwing a little hissy fit like has that ever happened in your years of coaching? Josh Croggon: many times, many times. I think some people think that they are working and they're know, it's like, I always like talk about steps with people. Like, you know, there's a difference between like registering a step and like marching. So it's like, yeah, you can get the same number on the screen, but is it at the same intensity? Is the quality there? Are you doing everything right? Yeah, always get people that like... G: Hmm. Josh Croggon: You know, they'll think that they should have got more results in a timeframe that you've been working with them. You'll get people that are like absolutely ecstatic with the results that they've gotten. It could be literally the exact same. Um, it's just part of, it's just part of working with people. Um, I suppose the aim is to kind of like get the, the clients that are losing their heads a bit to kind of, again, look at what they've done or like where they were at and kind of get them to see that. trajectory that they're on is a good trajectory. It might just be slower than what they expected but slow progress is better than no progress. G: Yeah, how do you deal with cancellations? like, have you got a way of like, not letting it emotionally like impact you when someone does leave the coaching program? What does this Josh Croggon: Ew. It used to affect me so much more, but I think having had like my high turnover period last year, I'm a lot better now at like almost moving on from things, not letting them upset me. And also again, like I'd ⁓ say least 95 % of my clients leave, if not all of them, God. G: Mm. Josh Croggon: leaving a better state than what they arrive in. So being able to look at that and just be proud of that, knowing that like, you know, I've done my job. you know, I quite a lot of coaches take it for granted that the client's going to stay with them forever. So there needs to be an element of, you know, all right, okay, I've had them for this period of time. We've got this result and now they've left like that. It's not that deep. It's not a personal attack. It's just, this is business. You know what I mean? Nora: Yeah. Josh Croggon: Yeah, don't get too caught up now. G: That's good. That shows a lot of like, growth, I think, because it does sting. Like, let's not pretend it's nice when someone leaves. ⁓ Josh Croggon: No, it depends who it is. you're like, thank fuck for that. Nora: like. ⁓ Yeah, I think it's part of the parcel with any service business, isn't it? When you deal with people, there will always, you can't expect people to stay forever. Equally, you can't expect to gel with everyone and there are those times where either not working for or it's not working for you. G: you Nora: Has there been a case where it wasn't working for you? You were really not enjoying coaching that person and you said, yeah, this is not working. Let's just. Josh Croggon: Yes. Yes. have like an audit that I do every six months. So, dear. two years ago, I was working with a girl who's an influencer. And when she checked in, I used to get anxiety like, ⁓ shit, I'm scared to do the loom. I'm scared to tell her that like, you know, this change is coming. She'd spend all of her check-in. G: I need a client. Nora: Mm-hmm. Josh Croggon: almost complaining that she weren't getting the results that she wanted, but then also saying, ⁓ yeah, she's like living in Bali and stuff. So she didn't cook at all ever. So you're not going to get the bloody results that you want from the work that you're not doing. So that was like my first one where I was like, right, the money that she's me isn't worth the stress that it's causing me. So when I first, when I broke up with her as a client, after that, I was like, ⁓ it's not, it's not that bad. You know, sometimes you need to do this. like last year after the business I spent a lot of time trying to grow and grow and grow. And it came to point like, I'd like 90 clients. ⁓ weren't really enjoying it. I'm to offer like top tier service to 90 people. ⁓ I couldn't do that at time. so I got rid of 25 clients heading into this year, which like, you know, G: Hmm. Josh Croggon: to sacrifice that much money, fucking hell, you're like, Jesus, how am gonna bounce back from that? But I've been able to do my job better with everyone else that I've got. So those little breakups, not that deep, it's fine. G: Yeah, you shook the tree. Well done. Josh Croggon: Yeah. Nora: I made the cut. Josh Croggon: Nora, if you saw who didn't make the cut, you'd be like, what the fuck? it's meant that I can enjoy my job way more. So again, it's like, it's a few grand, right, whatever, move on, fine. G: Yeah, and that space that it's opened up, yeah, you might have like lost a little bit of money there. But this service then improved for everyone else, your headspace, like you enjoying the business, like we always say, there's no point making loads of money if you can't enjoy it. But you've got no time to spend the money you're making, and you don't have the brain capacity to be present and enjoy your life. It's just not worth it. So yeah, I'm, yeah, I think that's amazing. And a lot of people could learn from it as well. It's not all about Nora: Yeah. G: money. Josh Croggon: It really isn't. But again, you don't know that until you've earned a decent amount of money through your business. It's, and I'm sure there's people say, you're going, oh, Josh, I'd love to have all those 25 clients. You wouldn't, you wouldn't. You'd want to have 25 clients that are aligned with you, not 25 that aren't. Nora: Yeah. G: Yeah, what do you think of obviously you followed some tactics and we're going to like name and shame the business mentorship. But I would love to know what you think was the thing that got in the wrong people. Like, can you give us any kind of indication of like, where did the misalignment come from? Maybe from a marketing perspective? there like a tactic that you ran? it specific? What was the thing that you think brought in the wrong people to the business? Josh Croggon: ⁓ I think almost trying to monetize the entirety of my audience. So like every person that followed me, whereas, you know, maybe if I was better at marketing, I'd able to see who I'm more aligned with better. You know, like going on someone's profile and like, ⁓ yeah, that aligns with it. That's good. That's good. Whereas last year it was just talk to everyone, try and build a relationship with everyone, then try and sell to everyone. G: Okay. Nora: Mm. G: Yeah. Josh Croggon: And people would buy because some people have money and you know, you can't really tell much about a personality in the DMS. Yeah. We're just, it was just a, just a weird time. G: Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. So probably not like fully qualifying all the leads, as as you could have done. Fair for cutting off climbs. That's bold. I love it. Josh Croggon: Yeah. It was so necessary. Nora: That's been very insightful. Some things I've never, I didn't know about the business as well, even though I've been. Josh Croggon: I don't think I've ever spoke about it online so you've got some stuff here. Nora: There we go, we've got some golden nuggets. G: Does Nora claims that she's like really client and she does everything? And I kind of believe that that is true. But I want to ask you directly, does Nora actually tick every single box like she claims she does as your client? Josh Croggon: Uh, Nora has completed 698 workouts since we've started working together. She has an 89 % completion rate as in like everything's ticked off. So, um, in terms of, um, percentage wise or like placings, I would probably say Nora is in the top five of my clients. She's, she's pretty good. G: to make that habit. Jesus, is she better than you? Does she rank higher than Gio? Josh Croggon: in the placings, yes, she does, but there's, there's other rankings that we've got going on at JustCoaching, you know, Geo's, Geo's a vibe guy. You know, he's, we Geo. He's actually good at bodybuilding. G: you UNIFI- Nora: Youssef me? What the- What is that? Josh Croggon: No, we've got to give him some, got to give him some wins. He might actually listen to this one. Gio, you're amazing. Gio's actually really good at bodybuilding. That's his thing. Nora: Yeah, he's really good. He is really good. He's gotten some trophies as well. I haven't. So ⁓ we'll after this season. G: it on. love to know Josh before we close up if someone is listening to this and they're like I'd love to build a business that aligns with me that's like something like yours like what you've created over all these years what would be the best piece of advice you could give them? Josh Croggon: You will. completely authentic to yourself. don't look at other people in the space are doing and try to copy them. take inspiration of course, be yourself. Like you, only one version of you and you, like I've said so many times on this podcast, you want to build a business that like you actually want to enjoy working in. So being yourself, documenting your journey, you'll end up with the that. You want rather than the one that, you know, everyone else has or seems to have. just, just be patient. Like I've been, I have been in this game a very long time ⁓ ⁓ hoped that I'd be in this position that I'm in now after like two years. And that's, that, you know, you, you realize very quickly that that's not going to happen, but just got to believe that you will end up in a good position eventually and turning up every day and. You know, being grateful that you're able to do this as a, as a job rather than like viewing everything as like a massive, I've got to do this many check-ins today and you know, message this many people and look at all these phone videos. It's not like, it's not that deep. It's not that big a deal. Just enjoy it. Nora: that. Yeah, impact over income is what we always say. And you align with that very well. So yeah, been a great conversation. Josh Croggon: I love that. Impact over income. That is me to the core. I don't give a shit about money. Nora: Yeah, I usually we always say the more you focus on impact, the more income you make, like the people that are looking for the quick fix, you might get the big months for one, two months. People leave if you don't deliver the service, if you don't really care about what you do, really offer a great service, really care about the clients. It's only lasting for that long. And that story that you said about the lifetime value of your clients that came through organic versus G: Thank Nora: pushy strategies and like really aggressive marketing is proof of that. So yeah, love that. Well, it's been a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining us. and I hope that it's been a very helpful conversation for other coaches that wanna do ⁓ similar things to what achieved. Josh Croggon: you for having me. G: Josh, if people want to drop you a follow and keep in touch and watch your journey, what handles shall they be following? Josh Croggon: Search Josh Croggan on Instagram and I'm sure I will appear. I'm on a few podcasts. I've got a relatively consistent YouTube. Yeah. But I only come if you're like aligned with me. Don't bother coming into this, my little bubble if you're a dickhead. We don't do dickheads. ⁓ G: This is interesting, we have a no-decay policy. it. Thank you so much for your time, all your wisdom. It so nice to meet you finally, put a, well, I know what your face looks like, so was gonna say a face to the name. Nice to meet you. Josh Croggon: Yeah, you too.