Latest / Houselights: A Film Director Podcast / Da Five Bloods (2020) - Spike Lee | Houselights #184

Transcript

Da Five Bloods (2020) - Spike Lee | Houselights #184 · Houselights: A Film Director Podcast

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Hello everybody. Tristan Riddell here, and I just wanted to give you a
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quick note before you started this episode that there was an unforeseen technical error with
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the service that we used to record. Even our backup was messed up.
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And so while this episode is very listenable and it is still a fantastic conversation
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that I'm sure all of you will enjoy, the technical quality is not up
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to our usual standards. But we didn't want to deprive you of an episode
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this week, so we hope that you can forgive us and please enjoy.
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Welcome to the ned Palty, Hello at home, and welcome back to House
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Lights. Here we are entered into the House of Lee, Spike Lee in
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specific, as we've been looking at a different work of Spike Lee through each
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decade that he has been active as a director. This is going to be
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our final week in the House of Lee as we look at twenty twenty's to
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five Bloods, which was a Netflix exclusive released to a fair amount of fanfare
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actually and with an all star cast, to discuss this Vietnam retrospective through the
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lens of the Black Experience. I'm joined by Darren Moser and Tristan Riddell here
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on house lights, gentlemen. I mean, let's just get down to brass
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tacks. No, you know, we're not going to do any sort of
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like soft shoe into this or anything, but to five Bloods. Did you
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catch this? Tristan, I'll ask you first, did you catch this when
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it came out? Or is this your first time encountering this and going in?
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What did you know about it? I had never seen this before.
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I had very rarely heard of it, Like I think I saw a trailer
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for it to begin with, and a long time ago when it first came
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out, and I just didn't really give it a second thought. Was I
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kind of chuckled a little bit at deaf five Bloods? Like even just like
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saying it out loud to you guys. Now I feel a little self conscious,
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like should I say that? Should I call it the five blood But
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it's not the five Bloods, it's the five Bloods. I knew nothing about
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it other than that it was four guys going back to looking for something.
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But I didn't even know that. I didn't even know what they were looking
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for. They were just they were ve's going back and visiting. That was
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it? Darren? What about you. Is this your first time encountering it
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and did you know anything going in? No, this was definitely my first
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time seeing it. And yeah, I don't watch as much Netflix nowadays,
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so it didn't even hang on my radar. So I probably should have looked
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at more of what Spike Lee had done as we were diving into this house.
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But yeah, it is always the fun to visit a director's work that
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is really current, because sometimes when we're doing decade by decade, even our
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most current piece could be ten years old. But this is only you know
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half of that. You know, it's interesting too because with this I was
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excited to see it. I remember seeing the trailers for it. I don't
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know why I didn't watch it before now. I was very excited by it,
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the cast, the concept. I you know, I grew up in
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the eighties and nineties, but like you know, I'm first coming up in
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the eighties. I remember seeing Platoon in the movie theater. I was entirely
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too young, should not have gone to go see that movie, yet I
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did. So. Vietnam movies have always been sort of a staple because the
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eighties was the first big pass through, you know, starting of course with
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seventy nine. You know, you get Deer Hunter, you get Apocalypse Now.
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But in the eighties there was like Hamburger, Hill, Platoon, all
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of these different movies that came out. Casualties of War with Sean Pennan and
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Michael J. Fox, directed by Brian De Palma, So I sort of
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grew up on Vietnam movies. So it's a comfortable area for me in the
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sense that it's like, you know, if you view it as its own
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genre, it's like being a sci fi fan, where you're like, oh,
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okay, I understand the rules of this genre, and I enjoy the
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war movie and the retrospective, and there's something cathartic about going through something like
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this, even though I've never been in war or anything. It always offers
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the opportunity to get in touch with some really real sort of emotions that are
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out there. So I was very excited. I don't know, I can't
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explain why I missed it, but I did. And then time March is
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forward and now here we are, And what's interesting to me about it is,
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you know, Darren, you mentioned this is only four years old,
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but this was the first feature film that Lee did after twenty eighteen's Black Clansmen,
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and it's decidedly different in tone. Right, Black Clansmen, we all
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talked about it had, you know, quasi comedic aspect to it. This
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definitely is not playing for laughs in any regard. Now, my first question
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to you, Tristan is, while I grew up, you know, decades
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ago, in the height of Vietnam era film storytelling, you know, retrospective
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storytelling, this is twenty twenty and we're in the twenty twenties. Now Vietnam
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is a very long time away. Now, did you have any challenges connecting
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with the stories it were? Would this film have benefited and I know it
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changes the whole structure of everything, but basically, is it like watching a
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World War Two movie? At this point it's so distant that there's a difficulty
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with the emotional connection of that conflict. I as someone who was born in
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the mid eighties, you know, obviously, like Vietnam was finished by the
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time I was born, and you know, being born in the in the
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Cold War, and you know, being raised on you know, Afghanistan and
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you know desert storm and everything like that, you know, like there was
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always there was always some sort of distance, like I'd never up until September
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eleventh, there was really no you know, oh my god, this is
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this is happening mentality when I was a kid, Like I said, it
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was like not until September eleventh. And but the thing is, my dad
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was born in the forties and so and my mother was born in the fifties,
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and so they went to high school. They both went to school during
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the Vietnam era, and they saw friends getting drafted and my dad got lucky
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and he had a low lottery number. And so because of their experience,
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I know more about it than probably your average person who didn't who wasn't raised
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during that time. And on top of that, I'm a huge movie fan,
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and so I've seen tons and tons of Vietnam War movies, just like
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my grandfather, who actually fought in World War Two, has seen tons and
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tons and tons of World War Two movies. And so to me, this
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didn't feel like that far away, even though you know, like I mean,
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we're getting older, Vietnam Vets are getting older. The greatest generation is
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almost gone. My you know, like my my grandfather who lied about his
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age in order to serve in the navy, I think he was sixteen,
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like, and he said he was eighteen and he's ninety seven right now and
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he's still alive and kicking just now stops driving. And so, you know,
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I have older parents who had older parents, and so I feel like
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that generational knowledge kind of got passed down as well as I try to keep
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track of it through a pop culture hemisphere. So that was a very long
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answer to say, No, I didn't feel like the disconnect, but I
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would be interested to hear what gin Z or younger you know, has any
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opinion on the Vietnam because even when you know, John, I don't know
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about you, but Darren, you know, like when we were growing up,
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did you did we even have a section a segment in school in elementary
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school, middle school, or high school about the Vietnam War. I feel
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like it was the war that was least taught about in schools, at least
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from my perspective. Yeah, I mean just a cursory coverage. But I
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think again, just World War two is supreme, like World War one and
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two like and actually you were lucky if you got a good chunk of World
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War one, because it's a very different war. But you know, by
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far eighty percent was probably World War Two. Well we covered and as little
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as you might have covered about Vietnam, the true forgotten conflict is the Korean
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War, which just is it's a shame how few people actually know learned everything
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about the Korean War from Mesh, which I'm not saying is a good thing.
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I'm just saying that's what has taught me because it's not taught elsewhere.
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Yeah, it's going back to my grandfather, who fought in World War Two
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also fought in the Korean War. And that's probably the only reason why I
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know about it, honestly, is because my grandfather. Well, just as
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an aside as we move forward, the Korean War Memorial is an overlooked,
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haunting gem. If you ever get the chance to see it on the New
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National Ball when there's snow on the ground at night, it absolutely will never
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leave you. But Darren, you know, Tristan has said, you know,
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he didn't really have a trouble connecting, but you know, I'm not
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trying to like hang onto this thing, but like, is there any trouble
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connecting on your end with Vietnam? And the whole reason I bring it up
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is because as worthwhile as it is, to explore every conflict from as many
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different angles as you can get, and you know, we'll get to Lee's
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perspective as we see it here. Like, you know, do you think
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that the time for this movie was maybe ten years prior to its release,
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or even fifteen years prior to its release, would have resonated with audiences more
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initially? I would say yes, like, like ten years prior is probably
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more of a time to resonate. But I think because it's not it's not
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just telling us, you know, an in person. We're set in the
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the seventies, is during the war. It's not that kind of a movie.
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It's a flashback movie. And because a lot of the story hinges on
10:09
the characters and they're all old dads with families and you know, but they're
10:15
kind of still back there. You know, there's a part of them that
10:18
never left, that never could let go of what happened and what they saw
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their and their comrades and all of that. So I think that angle the
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older your present day actors are, the better that payoff is. So I
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think that I'll say that worked well if this had just been you know,
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the young guys in the seventies it's all in the moment and we're seeing all
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of that, and then maybe we're saving private Ryan it at the very end
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where they're around a tombstone, like, that's a different story and I but
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I think what he did worked well in twenty twenty four. So Tristan Darren
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talks about these are men who are trapped in this moment. There's a part
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of them that's never left it. Lee makes a very conscious decision not to
11:05
deage his actors, even though they're playing the young versions of themselves. I
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will flat out admit through me when it first happened, I was like,
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wait, did they even like? I was like struggling where I was like
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wait, is this just shoddy work? Is the lighting wrong? Because I'm
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so used to it to de aging by this point, I just accepted as
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a natural thing that's going to happen. Did you appreciate what Lee was doing
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there by consciously not deaging his actors or did it take you out of the
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moment at all? I didn't even know what he was going for until I
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started doing some research after I saw the movie, where a couple of people
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commented with authority, I have no idea if they're accurate or not, but
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where they said like, oh, the reason why they didn't recast or dage
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is because this wasn't a flashback. This was actually told through the memories of
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the guys themselves, and so they're they're remembering themselves as they are now,
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and they're remembering their fallen brother because that's how old he was when he fell.
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And I was like, oh, that's pretty interesting. I didn't get
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that at all when I was watching it. It really took me out,
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Like it really took me out. Because I'm not saying he had to like
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use some sort of like Irishman technology and dage. It's just there was a
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photo that they showed of all of them together and they clearly had dyed black
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hair, no grays, no roots, no nothing. And I think Isaiah
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Washington had a lot of makeup on to kind of flatten his face. And
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I was like, yeah, I can buy that. But when I saw
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them first, you know, running around and they all have grays on their
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temples, they're you know, like they're definitely heavier than they would have been
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if they were like eighteen nineteen or twenty or something like that. It did.
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It really took me out of it. Especially during that first I was
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just like, Okay, this is what he's doing. Clearly he's making a
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choice not to do this. But I kept thinking about it every single time
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we went back, and I was right there with you, Darren, something
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I was thinking about to try to get past it. I would throw the
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idea out at you to achieve what Tristian's talking about, where it's like,
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oh, they're telling from their perspective, and so they see themselves as themselves
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in that moment. Should live instead taken a different tech and had it so
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that whoever's primary perspective we were getting in the flashback, he did not dage,
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but everybody else around them was the proper age and build for what was
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going on. Would that have helped? I mean, there's a couple of
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ways you could do it. You could frame it more where someone's like literally
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reading a diary or something, so that's very obvious. This is a memory,
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this is being a told story. You could do a perspective shift where
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the person, like you said, who is the key viewer. It's literally
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their point of you never see them third person. They're always the eyes we
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are viewing. I think I know they did some things with aspect ratios in
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the different times, which I think helps. I think it gave a lot,
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But honestly, the biggest aspect to me, it didn't bother me as
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much them not deaging. Honestly, I almost thought that they had changed actors,
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because again they did you know, make up and changed a little bit,
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so I was still in the learning who's who moment of the story as
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I was trying to like pick out, So in a way, them being
14:33
the same actor helped. But I think the fact that Chadwick Boseman was like,
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obviously he's stuck in time. He is only in the past, and
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he's a younger guy than all these other gentlemen. So in that regard,
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I think it had a very interesting take in the fact that you have this
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young guy leading a bunch of older, visibly older guys around, but they're
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all meant to be, you know, in the same same time. So
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I think the inclusion of you know, of Storm and Norman, I think
15:09
pulled it off enough to make it pass for me, you know where it
15:13
gave an interesting aspect. One thing that I always felt like as I was
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watching it, I was like, it really could have been I mean,
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this is gonna be this is going to reveal a future criticism of myself.
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There's so much of this film that is spoon fed to you anyway, Like
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so much of it is spoon fed to you. I know that Spike Lee
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doesn't do subtlety very well, and he and sometimes he likes to hit you
15:37
overhead with a hammer. So I think this addition that I'm about to say
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wouldn't be that big of a deal. Is that, like before our first
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flashback or memory recall or whatever, because they often talk, especially Paul talks
15:50
about seeing Storm and Norman all the time, like he's like as a ghost.
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He's like he's talks to me. I see him every night. It's
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crazy. And in one of those moments, he could say, like when
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I remember the days when we were all here, you know, I look
16:04
at Storm and Norman and he's still young as ever. But when I look
16:07
at your sorry ass, you're you're overweight and gray haired. You know this
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is something like that, you know, like when I remember us, you
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know, it's something along those lines. So it's embedded in our brain that
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oh it's okay, we're seeing it through the eyes of so and so's memory
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and you know, then my brain would have released just a little bit.
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I mean, I think it's a I think it's a fair thing. It's
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it's challenging, and Darren, let me let me throw this to you,
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okay. I think that it's challenging because the film's structure I think betrays the
16:40
fact that it's a rewrite. That this film was originally set for Oliver Stone
16:45
actually to direct it, and then Lee came in and rewrote the film,
16:48
and he acknowledged a book by Wallace Terry called Blood's in Oral History of the
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Vietnam War by Black Veterans, so he used that as a way to reshape
16:59
the story. Do you think that some of the challenges and some of the
17:03
decisions made here, including the deaging, including the way the characters relate to
17:07
each other, including the spoon feeding, do you think that is reflective of
17:11
the rewrite as opposed to it being a nature of the script from the ground
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up. I mean, it's kind of hard to say without knowing the original
17:19
story, just like you know, anytime, you don't know how much has
17:22
been rewritten. But it I think really the crutch that this movie has is,
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like you said, Tristan is kind of that spoon feeding and it.
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I mean I kind of mentioned as we were getting ready to record that this
17:42
is a Netflix movie. I wasn't really meaning that as a compliment in the
17:48
very beginning. I was meaning it in the fact that it like it looked
17:52
like it it had a not a cheapness. That's the wrong word, because
17:57
Netflix is quale, but it felt less cinematic, but at least to me
18:04
by far then, especially than Black Clansmen, And that could be subconscious things
18:10
I'm picking up on the lens uses and the cinematography and like, like,
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there's things that we think of that make us feel like that things are cinematic,
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but this felt smaller and less budget and it just always gave me that
18:26
vibe the entire time in Tristan. Do you think that Darren's criticism, and
18:30
I think it's a fair one, has to do with the way that digital
18:33
video is used in this well, I mean digital filmmaking basically where they like,
18:38
I would offer my own comment on it that what makes it feel and
18:42
look a little odd is it has in the night scenes, specifically when they're
18:48
out on the town in Vietnam in the beginning especially when they're outdoors. There's
18:55
that different visual like that it's hard for me to quantify, but like it
18:59
just it looks more like a documentary type of type of shooting. Like it
19:04
doesn't match with when when you when you move digital into nighttime and if you
19:11
don't light it just right, it looks like digital video as opposed to high
19:18
quality. What you're talking about is it's kind of like your your ISO setting.
19:25
You know, like on film cameras, you have film ISO which is
19:27
the type of literal film that you put into the camera and that measures your
19:32
light sensitivity. On a digital camera, it is you can adjust it where
19:37
you can say, like you can put in your type of ISO that you
19:41
want, and sometimes if you don't shoot at a native ISO and you kind
19:47
of ramp it up and try to ramp up the sensitivity, which is often
19:49
happens at nighttime like you don't have as many lights, it can make it
19:55
look very digitally, where like the motion is different, the motion blur is
20:00
different from what we register as film. The if you look at Michael Mann's
20:07
work on Collateral and those night scenes, that's kind of what he shot it
20:12
on digital tape and he kind of embraced that look. He said like,
20:15
yeah, this is what it looks like. If you don't know what you're
20:18
doing when it comes to lighting digital at night, it'll look like collateral.
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And sometimes it's a good thing if that's what you want to do. But
20:26
if you don't want that, that's what can happen. And what's funny is
20:30
that there was another scene that kind of took me out at nighttime, which
20:34
was too blue. It was way too blue. Yes, And the reason
20:40
why it's way too blue is because that actually wasn't shot at night. It
20:42
was a day for night scene where they shoot it during the day and then
20:47
just in post just make it as dark as possible and then cover the saturation
20:52
with blue. So I don't know. Monte Cristo and the night beaches where
20:56
it's so obvious it's day. Yeah, Like there is a two o'clock shadow
21:03
on that horse riding down the beach. What's crazy is that, like it's
21:07
at quote unquote nighttime and people are like squinting because the moon is so bright
21:15
shades at night because I'm aheading to Graceland, you know, I don't know
21:21
if I agree with Darren's statement about how it didn't feel cinematic. I think,
21:26
well, I mean, okay, let me, let me rephrase it.
21:30
I think there are there are things about this movie that don't feel as
21:33
cinematic as the past, because I feel like Lee is you know, Lee
21:38
on location is different than Lee in a city, And Lee doing an action
21:45
scene is different than Lee doing a conversation scene, and so this is I
21:49
feel like this is one of those movies where Lee is stretching himself. He's
21:52
doing different things, He's doing things he's never done before, He's doing more
21:57
of it, and it's just there were certain digital effects that didn't quite work,
22:03
like the the blood splatter and the muzzle flashes didn't quite work to like,
22:07
Oh, that feels kind of cheap. Also, I feel like Lee's
22:11
visual language was all over the place with it since we're on it, Like,
22:15
his visual language was so different from scene to scene. It made the
22:21
tonal shifts that much more jarring. There were so many times I felt like
22:25
I got whiplash. I'm glad you said that, because, in all honesty,
22:29
if it weren't for knowing that it was directed by Spike Lee, I
22:33
struggled so hard to find him in here. From a visual sense. Just
22:37
look at the difference even with Black Clansmen in this two years apart in terms
22:41
of their release. I would have I would have put money on different directors
22:45
between those two, just visually right off of that. And and it's and
22:49
it's we don't even get the the signature. Uh uh, you know,
22:55
tracking shot until the very end, and it is it's really odd, Darren.
23:03
Do you think that's because this subject matter is so different? Like Tristan
23:07
mentions, Lee is obviously stretching himself here. He's trying to do something different
23:14
than what he's done before. Do you think that this is that this film
23:18
reflects a director who's trying something new, And as much as we give him
23:23
credit for that, it's just not clicking the way that he had hoped it
23:26
would. That he doesn't quite find purchase, He doesn't find his footing on
23:32
this particular hill. I mean, it could be. I think I didn't
23:37
even notice till Tristan mentioned it though. Yeah, the four previous films we've
23:41
watched are all in a city, you know, different types of cities,
23:45
but a town, you know, and this is jungle. This is completely
23:48
different, you know. Now, I do want to say some positive things
23:55
about it, Like I feel that the minefield tension was very well done,
24:02
like you plant the seeds of oh, we're part of a group that are
24:07
getting rid of mind, so thus we have let you know that there are
24:11
minds. And then I swear as that guy's walking around with that metal detector,
24:15
I'm like, dude, like, you're just you're you're attacking the ground
24:21
every time there's metal, and I just I'm just waiting. I'm just waiting
24:25
for it to happen. I hated how laughable that scene was, like building
24:33
up to it, okay, and let me let me fill up the payoff
24:37
and the way that the mind actually happened wasn't didn't work, or or the
24:41
way they did the build up. You're saying I think the build up was
24:45
infuriating, And I say laughable because it was infuriating, not laughable as oh
24:49
he's gonna step on a land mine. That's hilarious, Right, That's not
24:52
what I'm saying at all. Uh, it was you know, they talked
24:56
about him being pigeon toed, and they kept talking about it, kept talking
24:59
about and then they brought up landmines earlier at the bar, and just like
25:02
okay, check off's gun, checkof's gun, checkof's gun. And if he
25:07
had more motivation to move backward, I wouldn't have thought anything of it.
25:14
Oh, but the fact that he is just randomly walking backwards further, further,
25:19
further, still talking, still walking backwards for no reason, backwards and
25:23
backwards and backwards. And I don't know how there could have been anybody in
25:27
the audience who didn't know that guy was going to get blown up by a
25:30
landmine. And then when it finally happens, you're like, well, there
25:33
you go, and you start thinking about tropic thunder when you know, like
25:37
the director got blown up. And then all of a sudden, you have
25:41
this crash back to reality where you're like, wait, wait right, this
25:45
isn't supposed to be a stupid moment. This is insane, this is crazy.
25:49
And then it gets amped up to eleven when you see that he is
25:53
still alive. Yeah, that is terrifying, grotesque and just beyond tragic.
26:02
And then you have this emotional schizophrenia going on. Am I alone in that
26:07
moment? I see what you're saying, and I agree. I think the
26:12
general build up was very tense, and the fact when they're looking for gold
26:17
and he's like and you're like, well, dude, You're like, I
26:21
would be checking every single thing very gingerly. And they're like, especially when
26:25
they get really far away from like where the first pieces are found, and
26:27
they're like, look, there's more goal over here, And I'm like,
26:30
is there or did you find something else? But no, I totally agree
26:34
that was well done. The once he starts jumping back, that is a
26:41
totally like you want to talk about telegraphing, like it is clear as day
26:45
what's about to happen. I don't think anyone was surprised by that moment,
26:51
but I think I don't know. I mean, if you're gonna have the
26:53
gun, the checkof's gun go off, you know, have it be.
26:57
It could be the same guy and the same moment, but just it's literally
27:03
him stepping off the path between two trees and boom, like it comes out
27:06
of nowhere. It was way too telegraphed in that part. I agree.
27:11
As soon as they started using the metal detector, I like a little stopwatch
27:17
started going in my head. I was like, how long have we gone
27:18
before? The mind like I knew it was coming, and Tristan I didn't
27:22
think it was laughable. I thought it was. It took me so out
27:26
of it because I was just sitting there waiting for it. I was I
27:30
was like half paying attention to what's going on with the characters, and the
27:33
other half of me was obsessively just like, is it it's gonna go up?
27:37
Nope? Not now? Okay, is it gonna go up? Nope?
27:40
Not now? And like every minute I was like, is he gonna
27:42
know? He's not gonna blow up? And I that is what took me
27:45
out of the movie, because I knew the minute that, uh, that
27:49
we have the discussion with the people who are looking for minds, you know,
27:53
oh, we're saving people from minds, I'm like, all right,
27:56
this is gonna play into things. And it's like it's a shame because I
28:02
think it's also a very clear indication of how conflicted the movie is about what
28:11
story it wants to like, what it wants its message to be. Overall,
28:15
like, there's just too much. It's all over the place. And
28:18
I think additionally, it's very very clear to me, at least that the
28:25
maybe in a first draft or maybe at the core of it, that Paul
28:29
is supposed to be like the main character, like it's to Five Bloods,
28:33
but it's Paul's story in a lot of parts, but then it strays away
28:38
at different parts, and it's that sort of It needed more disciplined storytelling so
28:45
that I stayed with Paul a little more closely through the whole thing, because
28:48
it very obviously was telling the story of how Paul was a broken person from
28:53
that moment forward, and that that's why Paul was struggling with who he was,
29:00
where he was in the world. Why this, why that? Like
29:03
I the way Delroy Lindo plays him, he's incredibly heartbreaking. By the end.
29:08
Lindo does an incredible job, as I would expect him to because he's
29:12
an incredible actor with the role and he just absolutely sticks it. H I
29:18
mean, Tristan, do you agree with me like that? I mean,
29:22
did this script need another pass to get it to that discipline point or is
29:26
this just it was there but it didn't come together in the edit. The
29:32
script was by far the weakest part of this. I feel like if there
29:37
was a tighter script, way, way shorter, way, not trying to
29:42
do as much because there's there's a lot of interesting things in this. There's
29:48
a lot of interesting things in this Like okay, just just as a brief
29:51
overview of some of the concepts in this movie. We have blacks, like
29:56
a disproportionate amount of black souled or being drafted in Vietnam concept. You know,
30:04
we have we have four black veterans, Vietnam vets, going back to
30:11
find their fallen brothers bones. Oh twist, it's not really just for bones.
30:17
They want to steal some CII gold that they feel like they're that they're
30:19
that they're owed. Oh twist. Paul's son is along on the way.
30:25
Oh further twist, they don't get along at all. Paul's a broken man
30:30
and he's a black man who voted for Trump. Whole can of worms right
30:33
there. And then you know, like further down, we're like, oh,
30:37
Otis finds out that he has a daughter he knew nothing about. She's
30:41
an adult. Are they going to reconnect? Who knows? You know?
30:45
Like and we like then we like land mines. We have three people here
30:48
who you know, investigate land mines. Oh, we have some we have
30:52
some Vietnam uh you know, uh, native native Vietnamese people who feel like
30:56
they're owed the money. Now we got this frint, this French guy who's
31:00
you know, like messing everything up. It's just and he's really the mastermind
31:04
behind it all. And and all of a sudden he you know, he's
31:07
the man behind the curtain. And it's just it's just like an all all
31:11
why all while Paul is slowly, slowly going into madness. And as Paul
31:18
is going into madness, like you you as you as the movie goes along,
31:22
you're like, oh, Paul is clearly broken. He's the one who
31:25
is not holding it together like everybody else was. You know, like he
31:27
even mentions that where it's just like yeah, you you know, your wife
31:32
and kids, they love you, you know, like you're a successful business
31:34
person. Blah blah blah blah. I could never do it. And like
31:38
we just know that, like some people came back from non were broken mentally
31:41
and physically sometimes both. And you know when you just when you realize that
31:48
he's snapped, you're just like, oh, he snapped and all of a
31:51
sudden became the villain. But then you're like, oh, wait, no,
31:53
he's not the villain. He's just snapped. He's going into madness.
31:57
And by the time you realize he's going into madness, it gets interesting,
32:01
and then it's over and I feel like, yeah, there's so much of
32:06
that. I've been talking for a while, but like that's kind I just
32:08
there's so much in there, and it's all good stuff, but it's just
32:13
focus, focused on a few things. I agree with that, and I'll
32:17
go ahead and offer that this is undone partly by its run time, because
32:23
a lot of the same issues that this has in terms of its storytelling,
32:28
in terms of its underlying script and all of that stuff, are some criticisms
32:32
that I would have offered, or I think I did offer actually about do
32:37
the right thing, but do the right Thing was still tighter. It was
32:42
a single day. It was focus, It had one thing it was trying
32:45
to say. It was less ambitious in its scope, and I think that
32:50
worked to its advantage because it helps make up for a lot of the flaws
32:53
that a two and a half hour plus run time. You hit that mark
32:59
and you're kind of like, Okay, I'm if you don't wrap this up
33:02
in five minutes, I'm gonna have some issues with you. That's really how
33:06
I feel about a movie like this, where I'm willing to just go along
33:09
with it. But then as soon as I realized that, no matter how
33:13
well you stick this landing, you've outstayed your welcome in terms of how much
33:17
time I want to spend with this, you're asking too much of me as
33:22
an audience member. And I think to add on to what you were saying,
33:25
Tristan, and I don't know if you would agree with me, Darren,
33:28
but I think there are even little moments such as when Eddie Norman Lewis's
33:32
character is saying, no, this is you know, this is for reparations,
33:37
is for the cause we're gonna go out there, and Paul says that's
33:40
easy for you to say you have money, and then Eddie goes, no,
33:45
I'm actually broke. That was the point at which where I was like,
33:46
this feels like a high school play at that point, because it's like,
33:51
oh, okay, well this is another unresult like oh no, he's
33:54
been broke the whole time, and the car like come off no. And
33:59
I think it may when you mentioned do the right thing, it made me
34:02
think back to, you know, how did I feel about those characters and
34:07
when did I feel that about those characters? And I think the problem with
34:12
the Five Bloods kind of one of its core issues is they kept giving us
34:16
those curveballs. I'm okay, Like, in a way, it's good that
34:22
we jump right into arriving at Vietnam, But in another way, I don't
34:25
know who any of these characters are right off the bat, So we're kind
34:29
of jumping into scene two from the very beginning, which you can do if
34:34
you pull it off right. But I'm still like, say, let's say
34:37
Paul for example. So I'm trying as a viewer to wrap my mind around
34:43
how am I supposed to feel about Paul, what kind of story as being
34:46
told to me that I should agree with, disagree with? How should I
34:52
feel about this? And just when I kind of get a sense of like,
34:55
oh, he he's feeling like disconnected after the war, and then and
35:00
then we get a curveball of like, oh and his son's there and they
35:02
have a bad relationship, I'm like, okay, and I kind of adjust
35:07
that understanding, and then you know, eventually we get like, you know,
35:12
the wife dies in the Birth of the Sun and he takes it on
35:15
the sun. It's like, okay, and it's just so I think that
35:19
happens, Like you've stated multiple times, across many characters where at the end
35:25
I don't know how I'm supposed to feel, and not that I can't make
35:30
my own decision about how I feel, but how my understanding comparing it to
35:37
do the right thing. You're picking up on. This is how this character
35:39
is feeling. This is a father son owning a business, you know,
35:45
boom like it. That doesn't change throughout the entire movie. That is the
35:49
core of those characters. They're developed and we're given more information, which obviously
35:53
is good. That's the plot, but their core of who they are,
35:58
that anchor never changes, and it does so much that it's sliding out from
36:02
under you. Honestly, part of me would rather some sort of play out
36:08
of the entire flashback at the beginning and do something where we the audience know
36:15
that Paul shot Norman, but the others like that's the domino to drop for
36:22
them to eventually learn that. But the fact that we are kept from that
36:25
information for ninety percent of the movie. I mean, it's a choice,
36:30
but that's how it goes. I would, yeah, I mean, it's
36:34
always dangerous territory to get into the Oh well, this is how I would
36:37
have written. But this is the note. The note I would have offered
36:39
along those same lines. Actually, I would have had a scene at the
36:44
beginning, probably before you know, the opening titles or whatever, that would
36:47
have had Paul in his like va therapist's office, where he's talking about how
36:52
he feels specifically guilty for Norman's death and he's hoping that this trip, you
36:59
know, the therapist like, well, no, you should go on this
37:00
trip with your friends. This will help you maybe work some of that out,
37:05
and you know, and get there, you know, just remember,
37:07
you know, say do this, take your pills, all those sorts of
37:10
things, and then you know, and then maybe some poignt line where it's
37:15
like, I just can't. It's always going to be my fault, and
37:17
then in the credits and then they're arriving at Vietnam. I think just that
37:22
little bit of a tease would have been enough for me to have that entry
37:25
that I think you're talking about, without having without starting off with a flashback.
37:30
Although I don't reject what you're saying now, Tristan, do you think
37:34
that some of, if not all, of the film's woes are solved with
37:39
a little different intro scene like that in the beginning, I think it could
37:45
solve some like we could compound it with what I was talking about where you
37:53
know, like if he's talking it was a therapist, and he says,
37:54
it's like, oh yeah, when I remember back in the days, I
37:58
remember myself as how I am today, as an old man, blah blah
38:01
blah blah blah, maybe something like that, like you know, I don't
38:05
know, I don't I don't know like that, that's not the film we
38:07
were given. But it's it's an it's an interesting exercise. It's just it's
38:12
it's I feel like we're compelled to do this because there's so much great material
38:19
but executed so poorly. And it's you know, there's there's little sprinkles of
38:25
Lee throughout, but it doesn't feel like a Lee movie. It only feels
38:30
like a Lee movie when he's become aware of his own signature, like John
38:34
wu mm hmm. So basically then that brings it to you know, I'll
38:39
go ahead and ask Eu trist and I mean, we've all we've all repeatedly
38:43
said, this doesn't really feel like a Lee movie. This doesn't you know,
38:45
where is he in here? We see a couple of flashes here and
38:47
there Is this simply a story that Lee was better suited to produce and not
38:54
direct. Even after Stone passes on it, should Lee have stepped aside and
38:59
found another director, you know, maybe lent his his his weight to an
39:05
up and coming black director and said, I'll produce and I'll help write the
39:08
script, you know, whatever it takes to get it made. Is it
39:12
just that he failed to realize that he was not the right fit for the
39:16
material. I think if if he, I think he could still direct.
39:23
I believe that he could have directed it if he helped write it or said,
39:29
you know what, this is a great concept. We can't just rewrite
39:32
it. We can't just rewrite parts. We need to take the core concept
39:37
and soup the nuts start over. Mm hmm. Like I feel, I
39:40
feel like if he had more of a hand in its genesis, he this
39:45
would have been a much better Spike Lee movie. I agree. I completely
39:51
agree, and Darren, I'm presuming you agree as well. I do,
39:54
and it's I feel that it is well acted at times, but I just
40:06
I can't get it out of my head. The forenames of the original cast
40:10
men being Samuel L. Jackson, Denzel Washington, Gina Carlos Posito and John
40:19
David Washington, and I just I can't imagine what that movie would be like.
40:24
I feel like they were just even with the exact same source material.
40:30
Again, nothing against the actors that we got, but man, that sounds
40:35
like a good lineup. It is exactly what you mean, man like it.
40:37
No disrespect to these actors, but who I I again, no disrespect.
40:45
I love Isaiah Whitlock Junior. I think he's just he's He's an absolutely
40:49
charming actor. I love Clark Peters. I've always been a fan of Clark
40:52
Peters and del Ry Lindo. In all honesty, it sounds so stupid,
40:59
but just like Samuel L. Jackson, if you say he's in the project,
41:01
I'm like, oh, immediately interested. Okay, I'll at least I'll
41:06
at least let you play a couple of trailers for me about what this movie
41:08
is about, sort of thing and setting aside anything else. You know,
41:14
Jonathan Majors is a talented actor, so you know he brought something to it.
41:19
And then adding gen Renau on top, I love the guy. I
41:22
think he's a great actor. But the energy, yes, I love gen
41:25
Renau popping up like it was just the right size role for him, yep,
41:30
where I was like, Okay, you're just chewing the scenery. I
41:32
love it. I love it. And while I acknowledge that you know,
41:37
Jackson, Washington, Esposito and Washington would have been really well suited and brought
41:43
a very big energy, you know, very electric sort of cast, I
41:47
just come back to what Tristan was saying, it's still needed a soup to
41:52
nuts free, right. I don't think any cast of actors was going to
41:55
breathe the life into this that was necessary, And I think that the actors
42:00
that we got, if anything, probably enhance the material because they all lean
42:07
toward more understated performances, and I think as a result, they were suited.
42:14
It's a really weird, sounds like backhanded sort of compliment, but I
42:19
would have rather had this cast try to make the most out of the script
42:23
that, like the script is a one to one. I think this cast
42:28
has a more forgive the phrasing, but like a more everyman quality than if
42:34
I'm watching Sam Jackson in this true I'm like, come on, come on,
42:39
get it out there. Yeah, I can't wait to see you in
42:42
a battle scene sort of thing. Whereas I'm more patient with these performances I
42:46
think, you know, give or take. I think del Roy Lindo when
42:51
he's going off and he gets bit by the snake and he's going like,
42:54
those are moments where I'm like, Tristan, you want to talk about fantastic
42:58
stuff. What about del Lindo alone, hacking his way through getting bitten by
43:02
the snake, falling down the ravine, having the hallucination. Like that's a
43:07
piece of the movie that I think was trying to get through the whole time.
43:12
That I mean, that's kind of what I was talking about earlier when
43:14
I was saying Paul descending into madness and then he's straight up looking at the
43:17
camera, which I usually hate, Like I don't like it, Like unless
43:22
you're doing that all the time, like in House of Cards or something like
43:25
that, I don't really dig on someone all of a sudden just like looking
43:30
at the camera and winking at the audience. But the idea that this guy
43:35
is falling into madness and Lindo has that look in his eye and he's talking
43:40
about God speaking to him, like, yeah, it's much more terrifying when
43:45
you look straight down the lens. And then it gets taken away, Well,
43:50
I definitely, I think the way that they have you know, actually,
43:52
Darren, I'll ask you this. I know it serves the larger quote
43:57
unquote story point of is it is de Roche? Is that his name de
44:02
Roche because it's because they call him the roach at one point or something John's
44:07
character something like that. It serves a larger story point. But did Paul's
44:12
death feel right to you in terms of being found and then digs his own
44:17
grave and gets shot. Did that feel like the right ending for that character?
44:22
I mean, when he went off his own on his own, I
44:24
was like, we're not going to see him alive again, like you,
44:28
like I would be highly surprised if he walked out of that jungle alive.
44:31
But it honestly, I think we're all kind of agreeing that that sequence is
44:37
probably the highlight of the movie, like where he is like he is acting
44:43
his heart out, he is, you know, all the wave is breaking
44:47
through all of this stuff. And then again it's a choice. But like
44:55
like you kind of mentioned early on, Tristan, the part where the CGI
45:00
is used, the fake blood, the you know, it's very obvious that
45:05
like he's not actually being shot and it's all cg'ed over to and I get
45:09
the cost saving of that. I get it's a it's a choice, but
45:14
that pulls me right out of it the with you know, all of those
45:16
little moments were just just reminded me that this was on Netflix. Is really
45:22
what it spoke to me. Well, See, the thing is, I
45:25
take a different tack where if you're going to shoot on digital using natural light
45:30
in a h an unspoiled environment like the middle of the jungle, I would
45:35
prefer you not to use the environment destroying blood packets and squibs and stuff like
45:39
that. I would actually I'll live with the the iffy digital on that one.
45:44
See, I need my predator like I want. I know, nibs
45:47
everywhere I know, But I just I'm I'm the type of guy I'm like
45:52
setting that aside. What I mean is very specifically, uh, him walking
45:57
in the jungle like basically I expected when he got bit by the snake that
46:00
was going to lead to the hallucination, and then him face down in the
46:05
river having one last vision of Norman forgiving him as he drifts off to death.
46:12
It's the gun like Tristian, I see you nodding, even though it
46:15
is not a visual medium. I'll let everybody know you're nodding. But like,
46:17
you know what I'm saying, Like him then getting found and shot,
46:21
I was like, that doesn't make sense. No, he No, he
46:23
kept talking about how he wasn't going to let these guys take him down.
46:29
It wasn't going to let the US government take him down. I wanted nature
46:32
to take him down. And that's kind of you know, felt like when
46:39
Paul stormed off, he was in he was in conflict with his own mind
46:45
and his own surroundings, and that was compounded by when he got bit by
46:49
the snake and sucking out the poison. He fell down into the ravine,
46:53
lost his pack, he you know, snagged his foot and he was just
46:58
kind of hanging there and you know, like he's battling the elements through his
47:02
own psychosis and the idea that these guys caught up with them and then they
47:07
just blast him to smithereens is just like no, like he had a peaceful,
47:12
serene moment when he was when the ghost of Norman forgave him and said,
47:16
it's just an accident. It's just an accident. God is love.
47:19
Love is God, have him in a ravine, Have him in that same
47:22
ravine on his back and looking up into the heavens, give him some sort
47:27
of some decent exit or I don't know, But he also doesn't in all
47:34
honesty, at that point in his madness, he doesn't seem like the type
47:38
that's going to agree to dig the grave. That he's going to be more
47:42
I'm just going to charge at you in mine madness and think I can take
47:45
you out sort of thing. But even that's like, it's just too it's
47:47
too action oriented. Right, it makes more sense. It makes more sense
47:52
that he dies like that looking up into the sky, he has his final
47:55
vision, and they find him, yeah, and have some sort of exchange
48:00
where it's like, well, okay, I guess I guess that's part of
48:04
it. All right, Well, let's grab his hat and let let Duroche
48:07
know that he's dead and you know, this is our evidence that we got
48:10
him sort of thing, or even not even have them find him, just
48:14
have them find the hat and be like, oh, there's no way that
48:15
guy's alive. Yeah, something like that. Yeah, very straightforward. No,
48:21
I mean I picture it again. I think that great scene where he's
48:23
actually talking to the vision of you know, Storm and Norman, and yeah,
48:28
do a slow like a two shot over the shoulder of them talking to
48:32
each other, and you push in enough on Norman that you can't see Paul
48:37
anymore, but Norman's still looking like he's standing right there. And then when
48:43
you pull back again, you see that Paul is just face down dead in
48:47
the river, like like he pat like you don't see the cut. It
48:51
was just yea, Now there's almost a vision without a person to envision them.
48:57
And yeah, I like that where the bad guys are upset because they
48:59
can't and terrogated corpse. They can't get any more information out of it.
49:02
They'll never find the gold that he had. Yeah, you know. Now,
49:07
obviously I have a big thing about asking about music, and we all
49:10
loved the score for Black Clansmen. Darren, I'll throw it to you first.
49:15
Was there anything about this score that jumped out you? Are you able
49:19
to even remember what was happening with it? Like, is there anything that
49:22
jumps out outside of the period music that they used? Yeah, I mean
49:27
it, you know, it's got some fortunate son. We all know the
49:30
songs that play during you know, Vietnam movies and that check that box.
49:37
I guess like I, yeah, nothing really stood out to me, particularly
49:40
in the score. Now, see that's a trap question, because Tristian,
49:44
before I toss it to you, I will mention that it was nominated for
49:47
Best Original Score at the Academy Awards. Does this strike you as a Best
49:52
Original Score nominee? No, this one felt pretty How do I explain it?
50:01
Pretty trophy for the times and for the vibe that they were going for.
50:07
I think, you know, Terrence does fantastic work no matter what movie
50:12
he's scoring. But I definitely felt like this was one of his weaker scores.
50:15
But hey, if one of his weaker scores still gets nominated, that
50:19
means you have a talent. He's a pretty talented guy. That's very very
50:22
true, very true. And the thing is, we're a podcast that is
50:29
pretty great at talking about music as we approach third, as we're rounding third,
50:34
as we like to say, so this brings us inevitably to our final
50:37
thoughts and ratings four to five Bloods, which as of this recording is the
50:45
Lee has not directed a feature film since, so we're several years on.
50:50
I'm very curious as to why that is. I don't know that I would
50:54
consider this any sort of Swan song. I think Lee's got at least another
50:59
one in him that that would be worth I think he has twenty four he
51:05
does that he's working on, Yeah, accorating time to be High and Low,
51:09
okay, and crime thriller directed by Spike Lee is an a twenty four.
51:14
So no, all right, but I love the studio, really talented
51:19
director and crime drama that sounds very much up his alley. Because you're going
51:25
to be in the city again. To your point Tristan that this is an
51:29
environment, probably New York, that he feels very rum to stay in the
51:31
city. Yeah, So, speaking of knowing that he should have stayed in
51:36
the city, I prefer to stay with Darren giving the first ratings and review
51:39
here on any episode of house Lights. So Darren, I will kick it
51:43
to you to help us start closing this out. Final thoughts and rating for
51:47
twenty twenties to five bloods by Well, yeah, gosh, I think,
51:54
like I kind of said in the beginning, it's it's a Netflix film.
51:58
It it doesn't feel like it doesn't feel as big, as polished, as
52:07
cinematic as Black Clansmen. I love Black Clansmen. I think that you know,
52:15
it was a very different vibe and feel. I think we've we've said,
52:20
we've said a lot. I agreed with pretty much everything both of you
52:22
have said about maybe a page one rewrite, maybe you know, making the
52:27
story your own, Like I don't know if Lee like had a grandfather in
52:30
Vietnam or something like that, but or you know, or father, like
52:35
some sort of personal story that he wanted to put into this. Maybe it
52:42
would have been better to be something more like Inside Man, where I feel
52:45
like Inside Man is less messagy, like they're like, it's a good just
52:51
a good story, whereas this has a lot of message in it, and
52:57
maybe it didn't need that. But I think as far as we've talked a
53:02
lot about the actors and you know, even tossing the coin to to Denzel
53:07
or or to Samuel L. Jackson. But I was hard pressed, in
53:14
my lance Reddick pick for this picture just because they it's they're all across the
53:22
pot. I would almost want to give it to Paul just just to see,
53:24
Like I love Delroy in this. I was excited for Delroy because of
53:30
us seeing in him. I'm not giving it to Paul. I'm just saying
53:31
I almost want to do that because it's kind of a like a Paul or
53:35
Nothing kind of vibe to me. But I think the thinking of ages I
53:42
can tell I've very definitely thought this all out, But no, I think,
53:45
yeah, I would give it to to Otis, to to Clark Peters.
53:52
I think again, we've all said that these guys elevated and and settled
53:59
their foremance in a good way. That kind of drove the plot. But
54:04
I'm kind of curious what one of these four being the kind of has the
54:10
right head on their shoulders. And that's the vibe I think Glance would have
54:14
given. Is kind of the the straight man of like wait, wait,
54:17
we're still going through with this, like we're still going into the jungle,
54:22
like like there's mayans guys like hey, like wave in the flag of like
54:25
what what are we still doing here? Like or you broke the phone?
54:30
Why did you do that? Like I think that calm, collected voice of
54:35
reason, he would be the voice of reason in the middle of the insanity
54:38
that is this plot. So I'm gonna go with with Otis and I'm raiding
54:43
it and I'm real sorry and I'm reading a two stars. I'm giving it
54:46
a two all right, all right, Tristan. I was so excited because
54:52
I think that recasting Clark Peters is a travesty, and I want one of
54:58
us to take the first shot at Darren for having the gall like not even
55:02
I mean, come on, now, Lance Reddick is a terrific actor,
55:06
but I would never replace Clark Peters. But I've been a fan of his
55:09
for many many years. At this point, Tristan, where do you see
55:14
Lance Reddick final thoughts on the film and your rating? Hey, we have
55:19
gone over this so many times that when we apply Lance Reddick to a film,
55:24
it is not to replace a bad acting job a good one. It
55:30
is trying to figure out where he would have fit if he was cast.
55:35
See no, Darren, he's still trying to make up for that time he
55:37
tried to change your rating that one time. It's all wise because I would
55:44
go with Otis as well, for the exact same reasons that Darren talked about.
55:46
It's just like I think Lance would give that kind of like that wisdom,
55:52
like Otis felt like the wisest one out there, the one who had
55:55
his head on his swivel. And on his shoulders, And I feel like,
56:00
if it wasn't Otis, maybe Eddie. But even then, even then,
56:06
I think it's Otis is the clear front runner for me, and I'm
56:10
with my with my rating, I'm teetering between two and two point five.
56:15
This was a real disappointment for me. I mean, this was there was
56:19
so many like if I if I wanted to go on concepts, on just
56:22
concepts that it was going for, you'd be much higher rating. But put
56:28
them all together, and this isn't just a mediocre film, I guess I'm
56:32
gonna have to go with with this is a this is a bad film,
56:36
this is this is two stars. Wow. Well, uh okay, I'm
56:40
gonna start with the landscratic thing first here Again, yes, we're not judging
56:45
anybody's performance, but no, I'd never never take Clark Peters out. That's
56:49
just a no go right there, no fly zone. I'm first inclined to
56:54
go with him as Eddie because as much as I think Norm Lewis is a
56:59
great actor, he was actually the second actor after Robert Gillohme to be an
57:04
African American who took the title role of fan of the opera. I would
57:07
have loved, loved stage in that role. I love Fan of the Opera's
57:12
one of my favorite musicals of all time. But I like that Norm feels
57:15
a little out of place. He feels a little lost here, like Norm.
57:21
Of all of the characters, I think Norm Eddie as as Norman Lewis
57:27
plays him. I think Lewis does a really good job of inhabiting a character
57:31
who feels like he's not even sure why he's there with these guys, you
57:37
know, like why am I here? You know, And it's like he's
57:40
setting aside the whole but wait, I'm broke. Like this feels like the
57:45
type of guy who's got everything put together in such a way that he doesn't
57:49
feel the need to go do this right. He feels that he's done his
57:53
part for himself and the world to be, you know, a positive influence
58:00
on things. I would actually bring Lance Reddick in as de Roche because I
58:06
think that adds an incredibly great aspect to it to have another black man betray
58:14
them all, and I think that adds a whole other layer to the ending
58:16
that winds up being even more interesting. French Lance Reddick, I come here
58:22
for it exactly, not that it has to be French, but yeah,
58:25
I could see it. I think I think that would have added a whole
58:29
other layer to that conflict and would have been would have paid off very much.
58:34
There's nothing I can disagree with you guys about what you're saying about the
58:37
movie. Obviously we've had a long conversation. I am so disappointed with this
58:42
film. I part of it's the expectations game, but I just I just
58:49
don't know how it could have gone right without a page one rewrite, like
58:52
you were saying, Tristan. As much as I think Delroy Lindo does everything
58:58
he can to bring Paul to life, it's just it's a mishmash. It's
59:04
trying to say too much. It doesn't know how to say everything that's trying
59:07
to say, and so as a result, I wind up as well with
59:10
a two. So that's all three of us agreeing on a two for Spike
59:15
Lee's as we record. This the last film that he has released in any
59:21
form. And so here we go, closing the door to the House of
59:25
Lee. Darren. What are we in for next week on House Lights?
59:30
Well, next week we're going to be covering Roland Emeric of the nineties,
59:36
which you might think would start with Universal Soldier, But no, we're going
59:39
back to nineteen ninety with Moon forty four. Buckle up here on house lights.
59:46
Join the Revolution, Join the net Party.