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The Steelers Head Coaching Tree (Part 1) · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, and welcome to another defensive episode of Pittsburgh Sports Memories.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're going to talk about defensive coordinators who become head coaches, and um there are quite a few of them.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: As usual, I'm your co-host, Steve Wert, and I'm joined by I'm Tim Hammond.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: So uh Tim, um, do you know yourself?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel like you're you know very self-aware or I I don't know.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Self-aware sounds bad.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like you just you you know you you've gotten to that age where you know what you're good at and you know what you're bad at and you kind of know what role you can feel, fill or not fill.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I think I've gotten better at that over the years.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: I I would argue that age plays a role in it, but also you know, like the willingness to to to do some work to get there also plays a role in it.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that kind of ties into what we're going with here, because obviously, you know, I am the first banana here and Tim's the second banana all the time.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously, yeah, yeah.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so like you know, in the NFL, and this is kind of happens, so we're gonna go over um guys that were kind of good second bananas, and some were really good head coaches, and some were not so much.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: So some guys, you know, they're they're definitely you know in it to become a head coach, and some guys it's just their whole career is an assistant coach, and they try out as a head coach somewhere and it doesn't work out.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, as Aristotle said, knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom, Tim.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes you gotta know yourself, and sometimes you just gotta put yourself out there, and you know, maybe you try something that doesn't work, but at least you learn, hey, I I don't like doing this.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Also, probably the first time Aristotle has made an appearance on the podcast.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we try and keep it high class here.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Greek philosophy, right in there.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's why you're the number one banana, Steve.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know myself, and that's the beginning of all my wisdom.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, more biblical would be the fear of the well, what is it, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's probably a little more accurate than Aristotle, depending on your belief system, but you can guess mine from what I just said, I guess.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, um, getting into we'll start with the um defensive guys, and I'm gonna leave one defensive guy off this list because we'll go over him at the end.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it's kind of interesting.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, do you remember Jim Hazlitt, Tim?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: I do.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, he was kind of loud, he was kind of like one of the more colorful defensive like uh head defensive coordinators we've had.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: So when did he coach with the Steelers?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: He from 1997 to 1999, he was the defensive coordinator, so he really wasn't the coordinator too long.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um the Steelers ranked 11th, 7th, and 12th in those seasons, so mediocre to good.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um they never were bad.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they had some bad records: 11 and 5, 7-9, 6-10.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I always thought the offense was probably more of the issue than the defense.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Although the defense wasn't it what it wasn't like the defense was horrible.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: The defense just wasn't good enough to carry the team, and they didn't have an offense to pick up the slack.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: So um I remember him not getting along with Cower.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like he was kind of too big of a personality for Bill Cower.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um I read an article, Ron Cook said he didn't blame Hazlitt for leaving.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they like I don't remember this, but I as I was researching this, there was this narrative like in the 90s that oh, Cower doesn't get along with his assistant coaches because they all leave to take better jobs and head coaching jobs.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like then remember Tomlin as he went on, it's like none of his coaches ever get hired because he's such a the such an egomaniac, you won't let anybody, you won't pick anybody that's a quality head coach.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's very typical of how we handle the head coach here.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's like no matter what, they can't win.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: We always put them in no-win situations.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like all your guys leave because you're a jerk.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: None of your guys will get hired because you're not a good you're too much of an egomaniac.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: So so that was uh unfortunate for both Mike Tomlin and Bill Cower.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I don't know about Chuck Knoll.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so where did he go?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: He went to the New Orleans Saints from 2000 to 2005, ominously enough.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um he had a record there of 45 and 51, so about even.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a losing record, but not by much.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And considering the Saints, the Saints were always like a joke.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: They they were like a joke team for years.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I guess they had those defenses like in the nine, like what was it, the Dome Patrol defense?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: That were was that the nineties or the eighties?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was like the late 80s, early 90s.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like I remember Jim Warren, wasn't that like their quarterback curt?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, those fans are sick because they were cheering.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they were cheering when was that Wade Wilson or I forget who was Bobby A Bear, one of those.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it was it was Bobby A Bear.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Bobby Herbert.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Bobby.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's Bobby A.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Bear, but I forget that that was a Seinfeld.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Seinfeld reference.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if they were very up and down though, with Tazlitt, but he had Aaron Brooks as a quarterback, so go figure.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: I um he finishes he finishes out his Saints tenure as the second most wins in Saint history.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I didn't look up who had the most wins.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can't imagine probably Jim Mora.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, probably now it's what's it's Sean Payton, I would imagine.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I thought you meant like when he finished, he was no, no, I think no, that that is finish.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: I was I would you were correct.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: I okay you heard me.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: I I yeah, you were right.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably Jim Mora.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: As from now it would be Sean Payton for sure.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so what happened to poor um Jim Hazlitt was 2005 was a very tumultuous season.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know if you can describe it as a bad season for the it was just a bad year for the Sinnery of New Orleans in general, New Orleans in general.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if anybody remembers, but uh there was this big hurricane Katrina that went in the Gulf and became a category five and hit the city of New Orleans and basically wiped it out, like killed lots of I I didn't look up the stats.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: It killed lots of people, I'm sure caused over millions to billions of dollars of damage.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: It displaced a lot of people too.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: We were we actually back then, my wife and I were helping out a refugee family that came up here to Pittsburgh.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: I remember that there were kids in my son's elementary school that were from New Orleans because it was and people were living in FEMA housing for years after that.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people moved to Houston, and yeah, it was it was just terrible.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And like people actually went to the Silver Dome for refuge, and remember then like it ripped part of the roof off and it started leaking, and there was no water, so it was just turned out to be a really bad situation.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and like before that, like Tom Benson, it was Tom Benson, right?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's the owner of the was thinking about moving the Saints out anyway.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: The Saints were always kind of like one of those teams, like you you like you always hear that in professional sports, like Tampa Bay, or who else, the ra the Raiders or the the A's, like there's always those teams and like whatever city, the Phoenix, Utah, like they're always thinking about moving to another city.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's a in every sport, there's that team that's always like, oh, they might move next year.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And the Saints were kind of one of those teams.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And after this, in the big brew ha, like, there was no way the NFL could move the Saints because it was such a political football.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Ha ha look at me.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: I made a funny um that they that would have caused so much damage.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: It would have been like, oh my god, you're piling on to poor New Orleans.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Not only did they lose their like whole city, they lost their football team.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the Saints played in Baton Rouge that year, and um they actually went 3-13.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that the which was really bad, but they really didn't have a home that year.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: They played on the road the whole season.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think they played some games in San Antonio at the Alamo, too.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it was just bad.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Do you can like he had that terrible was didn't they have that play where at the end of the game, like they did like a lateral play and they scored a touchdown to tie the game, or no, yes, to to tie the game, but they have to kick the extra point.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the reliable kicker was it Kearney?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: It was John Carney.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, misses the extra point to lose the game.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that was kind of like how things went for the New Orleans Saints of that era.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good that's actually you're right.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: That play that one play kind of sums up Jim Hazlitt's tenure in in New Orleans because they made the playoffs a couple of times.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: I remember they beat They did a lot of things right, yeah.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: They beat the the greatest Sean Turf Rams in the playoffs.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was a big rivalry because they were both in the same division.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so so yeah, he wasn't a bad coach.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: You're right, some bad luck.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it was funny because he he coached like like you said, the Steelers kind of stunk when he was the defensive coordinator, but then he got hired as a head coach.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you don't see many defensive coordinators from a six and ten team go be a head coach.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that said a lot about what people in the NFL thought of him.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um, Mickey Loomis, who was the general manager at the time who ended up firing, said firing Jim Hazlitt said.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think Jim performed really well under some adverse conditions, unprecedented conditions, but unfortunately, we haven't had the results the past five seasons that you come to expect in the league.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't just based on this season.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: I I guess that's fair enough.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um it was a mixed bag.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Four out of his six seasons were non-losing ones.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and he made the playoffs and lost to the Vikings in the first round one year, and I guess I forgot that they beat the Rams.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he had a stint, like his last NFL job, he worked with the Titans in 2020, 2021.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: And like there was just this like weird era of the Tennessee Titans hiring like all Bill Cowers assistants, as you'll see as we go through this list.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because like I swear, half this list like coached for the Tennessee Titans at some point in their career.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh he had a stint in the XFL with Seattle.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he seems to be out of football.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: That was in 2023, so that was three years ago now.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: This is 2026.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um he seems to be out of football.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe he's retired.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: He is 70 years old, so that's kind of a shame that Tim Hazlitt never it's so weird.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like you I guess what how many teams in the FL 30?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Is it 32?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: 32.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: 32.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: So there's only 32 head coaching jobs and you know that's just if you don't you know you you just you don't not a lot of guys get a second chance anymore, it seems.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's some guys that seem to get multiple chances.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I I think so much of success in the NFL, whether you're a player or a coach, is dependent on your talent, but there's also a ton that's dependent on your circumstance.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: There is something to that where you end up.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And there's so many examples of that, like guys that didn't fit in with one system, like Jim Plunkett.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like he went to New England and they didn't know how to do with him, and then like he was completely washed up, goes to the Raiders and wins two Super Bowls with the Raiders, right?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And like isn't just like a Trent Dilfer kind of character, like he actually was a key part of those winning teams.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: So next up on our list is uh Tim's favorite coordinator of the 1980s, would be Rod Rust.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when did he coach with the Steelers?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he was a defensive coordinator in 1989.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: One year, Tim.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: He came for one year.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um Chuck Knoll actually demoted Tony Dungey for this guy.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: So um in 1988, which we'll go over under the Tony Dungey defense, they were ranked dead last in the NFL.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: 1988 was a pretty god awful season for the Steelers.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Have we ever gone over that season, Tim?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: Not in detail, but I mean to this day, it's since the like I think since '69, I think that's probably their second worst season.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: It it is.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: Or or if you just want to take the Immaculate Reception, if you if you consider like the Immaculate Reception, the starting point of like the current Steelers era, they've never had fewer wins than they did that year.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: That was their worst season.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we have to I I was thinking I have to do like, are you we'll fight over it?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: We'll arm wrestle over it after.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, who who gets to talk about the 1988 Steelers season?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's just a bundle of joy that was you lived it, so it'll be well yeah.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I was at a lot of those games.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was a glorious time.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: So so Rod Rust comes in and he's gonna fix everything, Tim.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: So what do they do in 1989?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the defense is perfectly fixed because they get lit up 51 to nothing, the Bernie Kozar and the Browns.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then, okay, it's the first game of the season.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Rod Rust's still implementing his system, Tim.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: They go, they lose to Cincinnati and boomer sized in 41 to 10.
• 14:02
  unknown: Yeah.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: But to their credit, they hang in there and they turn things around, they make the playoffs, they upset Houston, they lose a close game to Denver, and the defense actually ends up being ranked in the 15th in the league.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um uh Keith Willis was the sack leader at six and a half, so they actually went from terrible to kind of middle of the pack, and that's even after two very bad weeks to start the season.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I wonder what their ranking would be if you like took those first two games out, probably more like 10th.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like as like outliers, yeah.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, so where did Mr.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Rod Rust go after this?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: So he spends one year here and he gets a head coaching gig.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And this is just seems ridiculous that he like literally spent one year like as at the Steelers.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess he had been an assistant coach, he had bounced around a lot.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so he goes to the Patriots, and they were this was not the Robert Kraft run Patriots, this was the uh the Razor guy.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Victor Kayam.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think how do you always you always remember?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: I can never remember his name.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I don't, I guess I bought a lot of razors back in the yeah.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that electric razor with that weird-looking top to it.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: So um he's the head coach um of the Patriots.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: He's the only Steeler assistant to be hired as a head coach to that point.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Can you believe it or not?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: In 1989, no Steeler assistant coach had moved on to be a head coach.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's hard to believe.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's really hard to believe.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: So the Patriots, um, their record uh as as that um time was uh one in 15 for the 1990 season.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: They were terrible.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: They won the first game, too, and then lost the for 14 in a row.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um Victor Kayam had seen enough and was fired him after a close shave.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's a bad joke.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um Rod Rust goes on to be an assistant coach for the Giants, Falcons, and 49ers.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: He actually goes to the CFL and he coaches for Montreal and Winnipeg.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't know.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Was he successful or not, Tim?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think for that season, he must he maybe turned it around, seemed to turn it around and get him to the middle of the pack.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this guy seems like one of those job hopper guys.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like he just keeps going like a Jimmy Johnson, or a lot, there's a lot of like I'm thinking like Terry Rybitsky seems to have been everywhere.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's just so many like assistant coaches that are like that.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's that's interesting that you know that that he got hired after that one kind of decent season.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: He had he had been the defensive coordinator for the Patriots, I think, before the Steelers, so I guess the Patriots had some familiarity with them.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Also remember that the Patriots back then were a little bit of a hot.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: They were a poorly run organization.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like Robert Kraft, I think, buys the team actually in '91, I think.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it's shortly after this, I know that.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and he's obviously done a pr you know, much of the Arsenal Grant a pretty good job.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: It took him about two to three years.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like they make the Super Bowl in '96, right?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: But he hires Parcells, they draft Cardinals Martin and Drew Bledsoe.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: So the one in 15 season kind of sets them up because they get to draft Drew Bledsoe.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And like, I know we all like to make fun of oh, Drew Bledsoe, this and that, but you know, he was a good quarterback.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: He wasn't like maybe uh he wasn't a Hall of Famer, but he was definitely a solid NFL quarterback.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: So um, what happened to uh Mr.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Rod Rust?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, unfortunately, Mr.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Rod Rust passed away in 2018, so he was uh R.I.P.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Mr.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Defensive Coordinator.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so next up on our list was a uh gentleman named Bud Carson.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um so when was he coach with the Steelers?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: So from 1972 to 1977, he coached with the Steelers.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: 72 to 73, he was a defensive backs coach.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: 73 to 77, he was actually the defensive coordinator.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: He helped develop the cover two scheme that the Steelers would use, and I kind of you know developed that defense in the Steel Carton defense in the 70s with you know all the you know Mike Wagner, you know, Joe Green, you know, Jack Lambert, Jack Ham, all those guys, you know, LC Greenwood, all those players.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he was there for the great defense of 1976 in the first two Super Bowl wins.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: So what happens to Bud Carson?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: He ends up going to the Rams, and this is when they were in LA in 78, and he's their defensive coordinator, so it's a lateral move.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know why he left, but maybe the Rams just paid him a crap ton of money.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: We we we talked about that in our Super Bowl 14 episode, and my speculation at the time I couldn't find a reason either.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: My speculation at the time was that he probably wanted to make a name for himself and all those great Steeler defenses.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody was just gonna be like, well, that's Chuck Knoll.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Chuck Knowle's the defense guy.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and if he could go somewhere else and have success, then he could prove like, no, it wasn't just Chuck Knowle, it was me, also.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: That was at least this is the best I can guess, Steve.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, because there really isn't a re like a lot of these guys, like, especially the early, like the papers don't say much.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: They said, uh, Bud Carson left and went to the Rams, or it doesn't come up until the Super Bowl.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it isn't like like the Super Bowls back then, although they were becoming more hyped, it wasn't like today, like there would be such, oh, why'd you leave the Steelers?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, what do you think about playing your old team and blah blah blah blah blah?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't there as much.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so where did he go?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um he went to the Rams.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: He floated around after 81, so 78 to 81.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: They almost beat the Steelers in Super Bowl 14.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like his defense doesn't play a bad first half, like they hold the the Steelers offense in check pretty much the whole first half.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: And they you know, the Rams had kind of like the Rams were a weird team in the 70s.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: They were very like I can't think of like like Vikings like or like Buffalo Bills of this era, like they were always good, but they could just never make the Super Bowl because there was a the Dallas.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Dallas was there, and nobody could beat Dallas back in the 70s in the NFC.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: So but they didn't have to play Dallas in that one championship game in '79.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: They had to play Tampa Bay, which is interesting enough.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: You had Tampa Bay and the Rams playing in the NFC championship game.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: That was a weird season.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: But but yeah, I mean, we talked about in that Super Bowl 14 episode, they had the Steelers on the rails.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they really did, and that was really because they were fr they they were Franco Harris and Rocky Blair could do nothing against that defense, and then they intercepted Brad, I think, three times.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: So and then finally in the second half, the Steelers kind of make some plays, figure it out, and um, you know, they unfortunately lose.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Gus Farragamo kind of throws a bad interception late in the game.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: So um what I say, the Rams finishing behind the Cowboys and Vikings.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Those were kind of the two teams in that that conference that seemed to be dominated that during the 70s.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um in 1989, he finally becomes the head coach.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: So from 1981 to 19 like he does he doesn't get head coaching give.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: And um he's hired only after Marty Schottenheimer got lost to Houston in nineteen eighty eight.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: So he's like the guy.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think he was on Marty Schottenheimer's staff, maybe, and he got promoted by Art Model.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: to become to become the head coach.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And um he's actually hired by Er Ernie Accorsi, if you remember him.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: He who later drafted Eli Manning in 2004.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's kind of funny because like Bud Carson says he actually this isn't what he said.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: This is in in the paper it says wasn't allowed to draft players or hire any assistant coaches.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: So what are we doing here?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: We hired a head coach without really any authority.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: He goes he coaches from 1989 to 1990.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: He has a record of 11 and 13.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: He got gets fired by Art Model, speaking of not great owners um 42 to nothing they lose to Buffalo in 1990 and art says you're gone after a year and a half the Cleveland paper I was reading some of the Cleveland papers um they called it Bud Watch.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: The papers were like far more willing to be like jerks back then.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Apparently the fans and everybody suspected he would be fired.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Upon his firing Bug Carson says boy the head coach of the Browns doesn't have much authority around here.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I don't blame you.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: You can't draft anybody can't hire like what are we doing?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know um Art Modell to his credit did call firing Carson a mistake but he said he just kind of panicked because they were having such a bad season and wanted to stop the losing or the hemorrhaging as Art Modell called it.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah that that was surprising because they Carson had got them to the AFC championship game in 89 where they lost to Denver again.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah that was that the fumble no no so 86 was a drive 87 was was a fumble 89 was just they lost so that was like that was a big win for Bud Carson because it's like they just lost there was no like tragic moment attached to it.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: So so you thought boy we maybe really have a good coach here.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: Then they had that awful follow-up season and yeah modell was a little Steinbrenner ish at that point in his career.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think he learned his lesson like just from reading the interviews like with Art Modell he kind of like figured out you can't hire fire a football coach every five minutes.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like basketball or baseball where you can go through coaches and it doesn't seem to affect the outcome of your team as much football it seems like you need consistency.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: It works much better that way so I don't know if it's just because football has a lot more moving parts and you need like a lot of like baseball like you just have to manage like rest this guy, rest that guy play the matchups like you don't have to like you know the pitcher and you know the left fielder can totally not get along and who cares you know and not not so much in like football.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like they have to you kind of have to work together if you're like you know on a defense and you're two you're two linebackers or you know everybody has to work together in football.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's so much different than any other sport.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: It is the ultimate team sport.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: It it really is and you're right you really can't you really can't do that.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: I I I remember what I remember about when they fired Bud Carson was that they made Jim Schaffner the interim coach and then they came to play us here at Pittsburgh maybe the next week or like two weeks after and we just they fumbled on the first three play of the game three plays of the games we were up 21 to nothing like five minutes into the game and it was just they were so terrible.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: And the Steelers weren't exactly dominant in that era but it was just so so bad.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: It was such a mess at that point um so was Bud Carson successful or not um after his stint with the Steelers I think he's like a classic example of good coordinator maybe not a great head coach um as a defensive coordinator yes he's one of the greatest of all time steel curtain and actually remember the Eagles defenses in 91 with Reggie White and oh that was him yeah oh wow I know I did not know that I mean it was Buddy Ryan too but yeah but still that's yeah yeah he was pretty good and um he actually was a head coach he was not very good at Georgia Tech either because he actually coached in college Georgia Tech so um where is he now um much like uh Rod Rust he's not doing too much these days because he passed away in 2005 from emphysema he was a smoker and I guess working for Art Model will drive you to smoke um uh in 2017 he was giving the Dr.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Z Award posthumously why can I not say that word for top assistant coaches so it was after he had passed away um kind of a sad ending to his career there but I mean he did win two Super Bowls with the Steelers so you know he had a pretty successful career.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah I feel like that was an era where so so that was today it's like man if you're the top defensive coordinator if you're the defensive coordinator or offensive coordinator for like this team that's really really good you're almost guaranteed to get an open head shot job yeah a shot yeah and that just wasn't the culture in the 1970s or even into the 80s because that that's assistants were assistants head coaches were really what mattered to people or ex-players that was the that was the culture you wanted to hire somebody that that had more of that experience than they had that's why you had saw saw a lot of coaches get recycled over and over again even though they failed yeah that was more important having head coaching experience is more important than being an offensive coordinator or defensive coordinator and I think if he if he would have been coaching that 7060 over defense today he would have been hired like the the second after the they lost the AFC championship game he would have been like hired by had an offer on the table from five different teams.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah so next up on our list is uh Marvin Lewis who this is an odd case this is like I don't know what to make of Marvin Lewis yeah I agree you talk about circumstances it's it's weird it it's just an odd coaching career for Marvin Lewis Marvin Lewis so when did he coach he coached with the Steelers at linebackers from 92 to 95.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: He was on the 95 team that made it to Super Bowl 30 unfortunately lost to the Cowboys um the defense in 95 the total defense was third um rushing defense was second scoring defense was ninth passing defense was sixth which was pretty good since they were playing Carnell Lake at defensive back so he did a pretty good job um in the sacks they were eight they had 34 team sacks um Greg Lloyd had six and a half sacks and three interceptions Chad Brown had five and a half sacks so it was a really great coaching job by uh Marvin Lewis there um and the linebackers really were what made that defense you had Lloyd and Green were just so fierce and then you had LeVon Kirkland and Chad Brown as the inside linebackers I think by 95 you had did you have Osasky by or no Brown was still there in 95 and Kirkland was really becoming like a star at that point.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: He he we said before he could have been the MVP of Super Bowl 30 had the Steelers won.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: So where did Marvin Lewis go?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: He goes to Baltimore which was really Cleveland in disguise um in 96 and he becomes their defensive coordinator and um boy that Baltimore defense from 96 to 2001 probably one of the greatest defenses of all time.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: Pains us to say it but yes.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Are we allowed to say this on this podcast do we have to kind of mumble it under our breath you said it's your first banana you have to take that responsibility see second banana Steve the second banana has its has its uh I'm just like whatever you say Steve then you know after being coordinator from 2001 in 2003 he finally gets his head coaching gig but um that's the good news do you want to know the bad news Tim it's with Cincinnati so you figure what he'll last two or three years and Mike Brown will fire him right like he fires everybody else except for David Shula.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well for some reason Mike Brown I guess maybe decided he needed to be patient and Marvin Lewis coaches in Cincinnati for 15 years.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you go wow he must have won a bunch of playoffs and maybe even a Super Bowl right Steve no no no no they I don't think they ever won a playoff game under Marvin Lewis.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: No no because they didn't win to the next coach because remember that they hadn't won a game since like nine a playoff game since like that Bo Jackson game.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: Correct yeah yeah and that was in like what 1989 1990 right so um I I don't know I I this was he successful as a head coach in Cincinnati I I I mediocre maybe mediocre is the best he kind of has like a Mike Tomlin kind of ride there doesn't he like he he does he's successful in Baltimore as a coordinator one of the greatest defensive coordinators of all time 2001 fewest rushing yards and fewest points in a 16 game season his record as Bengals head coach is 131 and 122 so it is winning winning um never made a Super Bowl never made it out of the wild card round never won a playoff game when 0-7 he did have some decent quarter that's the thing well maybe never had a quarterback Carson Palmer and Andy Dalton.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how good Andy Dalton is I could never like there's just these quarterbacks in the NFL now now with all the passing rules like was is Andy Dalton good is Dak Prescott really good i i I I don't know.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: I could never it's harder to judge yes so it was it the height of mediocrity or was he being consistent um you'll have to ask Mike Brown that um he has the most wins all time in Bengals history 131 and it's by a large margin over Sam Weich with 61.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Wow um I would say the hallmark of his Bengal teams were being undisciplined such as um deciding to just take multiple penalties at the end of that Steeler playoff game to lose it but even in that playoff game like he had he was playing with what um the backup quarterback so it wasn't like he had that great of a quarterback so I I don't know I think your comparison to like late career Mike Tomlin is accurate you know because because like late career Mike Tomlin it was like hey he's winning games he's making it to the playoffs he's winning division titles um but then once they get to the playoffs you know it's just one and done you know every year now the difference with the two differences with Mike Tomlin number one this was this was his entire 15 years like at least Tomlin had the early success to fall back on like like Marvin Lewis never had that number two in Pittsburgh we expect so much more in Cincinnati when Marvin Lewis came making the playoffs was like playoffs you know I mean that was that was unheard of so for him to take that just god awful the Bengals had the worst record of the entire 1990s of all uh however many NFL teams there were back then 2830 I can't remember but they had the worst record and he came and he made them into a a somewhat consistent you know good team so is that success I guess from my perspective but then like he can't win a playoff game so is that success not really so so yeah you're right I what you said at the beginning is spot on like it's really hard to gauge Marvin Lewis's tenure.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well too it's like he's in Cincinnati which isn't the most well-run organization I would say what I would fault him for would be the undisciplined nature of his team if he has a more disciplined nature he wins a playoff game he at least has one playoff win all they have to do is not hit people in the head like like even if you hit somebody in the head there like the Steelers still weren't in field goal range like you just play a little bit more defense and like then couldn't throw a ball more than five yards down the field.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Literally just play like normal defense and you probably win.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah just don't punch Joey Porter yeah who's not even who's 10 years retired at that point.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah like that's all you had to do.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah that's that's a good point.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: That was under his control.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Mike Brown yeah that that was a bad I mean that's like managing the Pirates I think I think Zach Taylor's showing that now it's like you know Zach Taylor came in it's like oh they took him all the way to the Super Bowl and and then all the way to the AFC championship game in the last few seasons have been kind of a struggle and is that Zach Taylor's fault?
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: Is that just because I think what yeah well what happened to Cincinnati was they signed all those free agents on um defense and then they didn't sign them long term.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was like oh we're just gonna have this one year wonder on defense and that's been their problem is if they just had like a middle of the pack defense they'd at least be making the playoffs again poorly run.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I mean.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's just now now but then the head coach is somewhat responsible for that.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know it it it's hard it's like it's like is Don Kelly a good manager for the Pirates I I don't really know because it's he's he's fighting uphill so hard that it's it's difficult to really gauge that and I think Marvin Lewis and any coach of the Bengals is going to be the same way.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well at least till Mike Brown sells the team or passes away or I don't know if he has any kids so yeah I'm but who knows um so where is um Mr Marvin Lewis now he is an assistant head coach with the Raiders since 2024 so I wonder how it feels working for Tom Brady so I don't know I bet that's a fun job going from the Bengals to the Raiders yikes who's their head coach now is it they had one guy for like that pierced for like one year and now I don't even know who the head coach it's Clint Kubiak.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh that's right oh that's because that was the big scandal is like Tom Brady like had an inside track to get Clint Kubiak.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I had to look that up I did not remember that.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah because I I just I should have remembered that because I was just reading about that like Mike Florio's complaining that Tom Brady's giving like inside track to get hires because he works for Fox and he he like did like a sit-down interview with Clink Kubiak I guess and that was basically became a real interview for a job.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: So were all the were a lot of people banging down the door Clint Kubiak and I have no idea it's an odd hill to die on for Mike Flurio.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah anyway uh next up is Dom Capers Tim do you remember Dom Capers who could Pittsburgh yeah um Bill Cower hires Dom Capers from New Orleans ironically enough in 1991 he's the defensive coordinator here for a grand total of two years because nobody can stand to work with that Bill Cower guy so in 92 um the Steelers defense is 11 and 5 first in the AFC Central um they allow 225 points which was second in the NFL they have Greg Lloyd Rod Woodson Hardy Harhard Nickerson and Darren Perry with his six interceptions.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: 93 they take a step back but um they're uh 17th uh points per game so they're eighth in the NFL so they go from second to eighth they're still top ten um but they uh I think they had lost Hardy Nickerson so they had Greg Lloyd Kevin Green and Rod Woodson um they give up some more points uh 94 probably the best defense under dom capers 12 and four um second in the NFL again in points per game um kevin green um is co-sax leader with greg Lloyd they had 14 so that means this damn alone had 28 sacks so you know and this Blitzberg scheme which really was kind of developed by Dick Lebeau in Cincinnati in the 80s um we're really is Dom Caper like kind of takes it to a whole nother level so they kind of compared I remember Greg Lloyd in an interview Jurassic Park was big and do you remember like the Raptors how the Raptors were like clever and would hunt like the one raptor would disguise you remember how Mould dies like he's a clever girl but it's kind of like the same concept like you think like Kevin Green's coming from this side when really Greg Lloyd's coming from the other or that's kind of like you're trying to fool people where the blitz is coming from so um he leaves after the 94 season after the loss to San Diego to be a coach with the expansion Caroline Carolina Panthers he actually gets them to the NFC Championship um the first season they go seven and eight the second season is really their breakout season they go 12 and 4 and losing the NFC championship then Carolina kind of comes back to earth and they have some losing seasons and capers get fired after a after a 4 and 12 season he is 30 and 34 overall in those four years which wasn't great.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: He does get another chance with another expansion team they're like he did so well in Carolina let's hire him in Houston and um they're just terrible Houston is just terrible for years.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: He goes 18 and 46 um not really successful and that's that's his last head coaching gig and it really like who's it Bob McNair who owned the or his son whoever runs that Houston Texans team is not a very good owner.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: He's another one of those kind of like idiot owners that likes to meddle and stuff so um he is uh he does get his revenge on the Steelers he's the defensive coordinator of the Packers in 2010 and that's the team that beats the Steelers in the Super Bowl with Aaron.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's more Aaron Rodgers than the defense but I mean they did force that fumble what's his AJ was that AJ Hawk or yeah that was uh that was the other guy Clay one of the Matthews kids yeah yeah yeah made up made the uh al Qaeda sympathizer fumble that's right anyway um is he successful or not I would say he was he was NFL AP coach of the year in 96 um it was more of a mixed bag bad ownership in Houston I have Cal McNair that was it because his son Cal Bob McNair's son likes to meddle um but he did have great success with Carolina and Jerry Richardson I always thought was a pretty decent owner he was good friends with uh Dan Rooney so he had that he tried to run his team like the Steelers until he decided to sexually harassing his staff and had to leave Carolina but um so where is um Dom Capers now um hey he's currently a defensive assistant with the Cleveland Browns so I didn't know that yeah yeah he was he was a real I mean that 94 defense is still like legendary I don't you could argue well probably a couple of years since then but but there's not many years since then where we had that good of a defense I always it's always the biggest what if what if you know mcaire doesn't give up that touchdown what do they do against San Francisco in that super bowl it would be a great what if I I can tell you with almost certainty I know what you're gonna say yeah they don't let Jerry Rice split their safeties on like the third play of the game which is what the Targers did yeah but Junior Sal Tim Yeah yeah what a joke but hey we we blew it so poor Tim McCire yeah um so next up is a guy you probably know and recognize John Fox you're like oh hey John Fox not only did he coach for the Steelers he coached for Pitt it's a double it's a double coach there so he coached the University of Pittsburgh under Mike Gottfrey from 1986 to 1988 those glory days of six and six and five and seven I'm sure and tying West Virginia with last second field goals it was it was an amazing time to be a Pitt fan back then um so I guess while he was at Pitt he like decided to wander down to like wherever the Steelers headquarters were I think there were three or a stadium still at that point.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: So he'd go there and hang out and he made some connections with Chuck Knowle.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so in 1989 Chuck Knowles like okay this guy seems to know what he's doing.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know about this you know Mike McCarthy or John Gruden guy who are also assistant coaches on that staff but we'll hire this guy.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know about those other two guys.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: They'll never win a Super Bowl um he he becomes a defensive back coach from nineteen eighty nine to ninety one.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um He coaches with Rod Rust and Tony Dungey.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, they hire a new defensive coordinator, Dave Brazil.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know who I didn't even heard of this guy.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: The 1990 season is good defense, bad offense, because of Joe Walton, unfortunately, who maybe I should have put on here.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: I did put Joe Walton on here because I guess he went to become head coach in college, not really the pros.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: Should I have put Joe Joe Walton on here?
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: No, he he was a reverse guy.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: He was the head coach of the Jets who came to the Steelers after being a head coach with the Jets.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that would be that would be kind of the reverse.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: Then he did go head coach Robert Morris.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think you were going for became a head coach in the NFL.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sorry if I left.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry if I offended anybody that knows Joe Walton.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: He seems like a nice enough guy.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: And he started Robert Morris football.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: So he did a heck of a job there.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: It has a stadium named after him.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: So he got the last laugh there.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um 1989 stats, you know, we went over them.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: They're kind of mediocre.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're 15th in the league, but it was better than being last in the league.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um the 1990 season, um, this is under John Fox, of course, ends with an infamous game, which we went over in our Houston Oilers slash Tennessee Titans episode.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: And Tim loves this game because we're was this the burning Cody Carlson cards in our Yeah, we were my brother and I in our fireplace were just burning all of our Houston Oiler football cards that we could find during this game.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: Lorenzo White, Cody Carlson, Warren Moon, even though he wasn't playing because he was hurt.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it didn't matter.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um it ends in disaster.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think did they miss the yeah, they missed the playoffs because Cody they can't stop Cody Carlson.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you can't, you know, one thing I've learned in my life is you can't stop Cody Carlson.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: You can only hope to contain him.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he's still a legend in Houston after this game.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, in two francs and well, one franchise later, right?
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um maybe that was John Fox's fault, Tim.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think he just didn't coach the defensive backs up good enough, or the Steelers just had a bad game?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, sure.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: It was a it was a failure all around.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you can put it on one assistant coach.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um we have some stats.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the 90 season, um, let's see, they were uh they were the defense was top five for fewest points in that season, which is kind of they're ranked third overall, which kind of depressing considered they just kind of choked at the end of the year.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: 91, um, they went back, they were seven and nine, they're ranked 22nd.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: So um I don't know.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: They they definitely slipped back in the lower tier after that 90 season.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: And um, when Chuck Knoll retires after that season, John Fox sees the writing on the wall that he's not gonna get hired by Bill Cower.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because unlike Bud Carson, they actually let Bill Cower hire some assistants, I think.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: Don't they?
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think they do, yeah.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: Or he hires very good assistants.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they help him hire assistants.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: John Fox leaves Pittsburgh, so where does he go?
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: He bounces around as assistant coaches.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna read the list because it's like, you know, it's kind of like that Johnny Cash song, I've been everywhere, man.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: I've been everywhere.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, bounces around, and all these guys do.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, all that's the life of an assistant coach is you're gonna bounce around and coach at every city, college and pro and XFL and USFL.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so you these guys have been everywhere from Birmingham to NFL Europe to you know Green Bay, Wisconsin to you know, LA to wherever, right?
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um he coaches the Panthers for nine years.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: He lands in Carolina, so once again, like there is kind of like this, like you said, this relationship with like Jerry Richardson and the um Steelers.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Dan R Dan Rooney, like you said, Dan Rooney always talked very, very highly of Jerry Richardson and the Panthers.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: So he coaches them for nine years, and he's one of their, I think he's still one of their successful coaches, most successful.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, although his overall record is only 73 and 71.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he goes to the Super Bowl in 2003, but he loses New England on a last second field goal.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: They that was kind of like a weird, I remember that Super Bowl.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: It was a very boring first half and then a very exciting second half.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: And they really did.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like Masin Mohammed scored a touchdown late, and he had Jake DeLome, who's like another one of those, like he's okay.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: He's not like he's not like a great quarterback, right?
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, kind of the star of that team was their running backs, wasn't it?
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, yeah, but the um had a really good um run that year, and like you said, they were man, they were so close to beaming New England in that series.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: And Vanateri had an off game, actually.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: He had missed a couple field goals, but just Vanateri being the Hall of Famer that he is hit the one that mattered.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so he get he gets fired after a bad season in Carolina, um, and just kind of overall mediocrity.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: See, they're not all Mike Brown on this list where you just let a guy hang around forever.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: Although nine seasons, that's a long time in NFL world.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he coaches Denver from 2011 to 2014, and he gets he's 46 and 18.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: He has a very good record in Denver, but he gets fired after a 12-4 season in 2014.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think that was the John Elway years.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: He gets fired, and uh, I think on John Elway replaces him with Gary Kubiac.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's when that's actually I think the next year or so is when they then Braun of Denver wins the Super Bowl.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because he does take John Fox does take Denver to the Super Bowl, but that was with the decrepit Peyton Manning, and they they lose the Super Bowl to Seattle.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's the first play of the game, goes for like was it a safety or a safety, yeah.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um like I said, he didn't like his quarterbacks, he didn't have the greatest quarterbacks.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: He had Jake Delahome and Peyton Manning at the end of his career.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um the Bears, I mean, he goes and coaches the Bears.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: They're just terrible.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: I the Bears are a terribly run organization.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: I hate to say it.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's because they're like one of the biggest, most popular teams in the NFL, but they're just so poorly run right now.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: They're kind of like where Washington was a couple years ago without all the scandal.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a good comparison.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Although, like, it's becoming scandalous, like their whole relocating their stadium out of Chicago, but that's more, once again, a political football.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's probably more on the politicians than them.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: And they had a really good like they're they're now with Caleb Williams, they they look like they could be like this great up-and-coming team, but I bet it doesn't last just because they're the Bears.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of like the Bengals a few years ago, right?
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, similar, I I kind of put um John Fox and Dom Capers in kind of the similar categories.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um they lose to the Cardinals, he loses to the Cardinals and Colts in the playoffs.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: They kind of sealed his coaching rep.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, where is he now?
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: He's a senior assistant with the Bills, and that's as of this season, 2026.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: So John Fox, I don't know.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think more success.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like if he would have had one more year with Denver, maybe.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe obviously John Elway made the right call.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: They won a Super Bowl with but Gary Kubiak, wasn't he?
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't want to coach, right?
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't want to be a head coach because like he had health issues.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: And like I think he had been a head coach before, and he was like, he didn't like it.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, I don't like being a head coach.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I mean, once again, know yourself, you know, and so good on Gary Kubiak knowing what he was good at and what he didn't didn't want to do.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_02: So by the way, we just we were talking about Clint Kubiak before.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's Gary's son, yeah.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: John Fox was a good coach.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he he took two different teams to the Super Bowl.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_02: Not many guys can say that.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: He also didn't win either of the Super Bowl.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_02: It it's it's it's I would say like good coach, not great coach.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking of, um, this is the guy that definitely fits the definition of great defensive career, probably one of the great and he's a great player, too.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: In the hall of fame, could have gone on in the hall of fame as just a player, not just a coach.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: But he I think they put him in more as a coach than a player, but so it's the one, the only Dick Lebeau.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Dick Lebeau, when did he coach the Steelers from 92 to 94 as a defensive backs coach?
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: From 95 to 96, he was a defensive coordinator.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then the his really when he came into his own and his best defense is from 2004 to 2014 as defensive coordinator.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: So LeBeau does leave for um Cincinnati in like the middle of his career, that 96.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: And like I actually found a reason.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like later when he came back in 2004, um, he he's in an interview with uh, I think this is Ed Bouchette.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um says, It's great to be back, Ohio is my home.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, this is actually when he leaves in '96 to go back to the Bengals as a coordinator under I want to say Bruce Coslett.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um he says, it's great to be back.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: Ohio, Ohio was my home.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: I was born in London, Ohio, played at Ohio State, cornerback.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: This is kind of a dream come true for me.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: I I really kind of felt like professional.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: There wasn't much professionally, there wasn't much more to do in Pittsburgh.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: I was looking forward to another challenge, and I'm looking forward to the one that awaits us here.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, he's trying to transform the Cincinnati defense.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um to their credit, the Bengals weren't supposed to be able to talk to Lebeau, but um Brown got permission from Dan Rooney, and Dan Rooney let him talk to him.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so you know, there was no need no need for permission to sign him away from the division rival.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Mike Brown says, I appreciate what Pittsburgh did.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: They could have been wounded or resentful.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: I know it pinches them, it probably aggravates them, but they wish Dick well.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, it's kind of like one of those things, like, you know, sometimes if you treat a person right, it kind of ends up, you know, he comes back.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's say the Steelers would have been petty about it and like, oh no, you can't talk to Dick LeBeau, Dick LeBeau can't go, blah, blah, blah.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe he doesn't come back in 2004.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: So um, in 2004 to 2000, defensive coordinator Steelers, Mark Madden on the Lebau hire, um, because they hire him and Mark Madden has his comment.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I don't want the I don't want Robinson.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: He was talking about another guy they're looking at.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's like hiring a convicted arsonist to teach fire safety classes.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want Lebau just because I don't like to recycle.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's a mistake.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: He wanted Ted Cottrell or some other guy named Blatch.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I I get I get the opinion there.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, wait, we're bringing back a coach that used to be here to be the defensive coordinator again, but he was a good defensive coordinator the first time he was here.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like we fired him.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, he left because he wanted to go back to Cincinnati.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um Madden was upset that we fired Tim Lewis, who was pretty mediocre.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was Mark Madden has had some really good opinions over the years.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_02: Had some ones that aren't so good either, and that was that was one of his fails.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that was uh absolutely the right move to fire Tim Lewis and to bring in Dick Lebeau, obviously paid off tremendously.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um where he went, um he the defense uh in Cincinnati never ranked above 25th.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: He actually became the head coach after Bruce Coslett resigned.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_01: I thought Bruce Coslett got fired, but Bruce Coslet just quit after three seasons.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_01: One year.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, um, and then Dicklebeau went 12 and 33.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: And uh DickleBoe ends up getting fired in 2002.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, successful or not, he's a great coach.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: He developed the zone blitz in the 80s, had those great Bengals defenses.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: They were and there was Solomon Wilcox and Tim Crumwry.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, Tim Crumwai came back as a coach in the 90s with him under um Coslet, I do believe.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: So then he came to the Steelers and he really has two very successful stints: the Blitzburg of the early 90s, and then the legendary defenses of the 2004 to 2014.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: Which is the better defense, the 2008 Tim or the 2005?
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: Probably 2008, I would say.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_02: Probably 2008, yeah.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the 2008 defense, um, but he both won two Super Bowls in 40 and 43.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they led the league in scoring defense first in total defense enforcement scoring defense.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: That was 2008.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: James Harrison had 16 sacks.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he became like this father figure to that defense.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: He was so beloved by his players, you know, just the players talk so positively about him.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I think the oldest players that he coached talk pretty positively about him.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've never heard Solomon Wilcox say a bad thing about him or Crum Rye or any of those guys from the Bengals team.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so where is uh Dick Lebeau now?
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um he was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2010.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um he did another guy, he coached the Titans from 2015 to 2017, and um then he kind of retired in 2018, and he has he's just you know he's in retirement now.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I think he's in his 70s, in his mid-70s.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: So he might yeah, he might even be older than that.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_02: He's definitely up there in years.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_02: I I think there's two things.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_02: So Diclebo obviously is a legend, he's a Hall of Famer.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_02: There's two things he never gets enough credit for.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_02: Number one was Super Bowl 23, that everybody just remembers.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_02: Joe Montana and Jerry Rice.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: They held them in check for most of that Super Bowl, yeah.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't score a touchdown in that game, San Francisco, until the fourth quarter.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: And and you look at the the year after that, they played Denver in the Super Bowl, and Denver had the number one defense in the league, and they scored 55 points.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, they they you know, but nobody remembers that because again, he drove down the field in the last minute and beat them.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I guess the same thing would happen in 2008 had you know Larry Fitzgerald got that touchdown and he hadn't come back.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_02: So that's number one.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: Number two that he doesn't get enough credit for is he effectively ruined the 2002 Steelers season.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, oh I forgot.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, John Kitna.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because in in a very late season game in two so in 2001, the this we did just did an episode about the 2001 Steelers.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: They had this great team, this led by this amazing defense, was on the cover of Sports Illustrated.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_02: They were just dominant, no one could stop their defense.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_02: And there's this one game, this like little outlier game real late in the season, where John Kitten just completely destroys the Steelers.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because they didn't even try and run the ball, they didn't even try.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_02: Which was and nobody nobody copied that into the playoffs.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, New England beat us in the playoffs on Special.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think New England was going to do that, but Tom Brady got hurt.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because I've seen interviews in that championship game where um oh, who's the jerk?
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: Charlie um Weiss Weiss was like, we're gonna throw the ball 50 times today.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like yeah, and then and then the opening game of the 2002 season, they did that.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_02: It was at Marine, and and they did that, and they just picked the Steelers apart, and then every team for that entire rest of the season did the same thing.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we we can't fire Tim Lewis, though, Tim.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_02: So so yeah, by the time you got to 2004, the the that defense, which was like this great defense in 2001, had just been completely they they were a complete mess, and everybody knew how to like everybody knew the secret keep code to beat them.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then Dick Lebeau, after he ruins that defense, comes back to Pittsburgh and rebuilds it from the ground up.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_02: So, like I said, he never gets enough credit for for for some of that.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_02: He really is one of the greatest defensive coaches in the history of the league.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: And not really, like, as a head coach, it's not that's not really his thing.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: And he to his credit, he never is a head coach after that short stints in Cincinnati.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: And he he was just intern, really.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think that Lebow was smart enough to realize what's going on.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_02: All right, folks, those were the defensive assistants who became head coaches.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna do a part two next time where we cover the offensive assistants.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're thinking, hey, you guys left off a pretty notable Steelers defensive coordinator who became a really successful head coach, don't worry, we'll get to him next time as well.
• 1:01:34
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• 1:01:38
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• 1:01:43
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• 1:01:46
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• 1:01:51
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