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Podcast Industry Insights with Tom Webster · Buzzcast

0:00
Kevin: I'm just wondering if we're talking about the daily No, because they have been getting a lot of funny tweets and stuff about Conan O'Brien needs a friend episode where he was talking about the daily and how good of a podcast it is. And he's like, but Michael Barbaro.
0:09
Kevin: I think I could stand in for Michael bar because like, I can do what Michael Barr does. And I think they've broken down the formula of being a really good interviewer, which is like you just repeat whatever the person said back to you summarize it, you repeat it back. You just say it back to them. Yeah, you say it back to them. But more succinctly, you say it back to them, but more succinctly.
0:29
Kevin: That's right. And then you take the obvious, like, next step in the story, and then you say, so like, I suppose that this happened next? And they're like, yes, exactly. And then they continue on with the next part of story. And then you interject a lot of, and yes, in between what they're saying. But I love that people are like dissecting Michael Barrows, interviewing style, and offering to step in for him because it seems so easily replicable. Yeah. Seems so easily recognizable.
0:55
Kevin: Replicated.
1:02
Alban: I hope you know that you did an entire segment. Right? I did the entire segment. I did it back to you the first time as soon as you said you just repeat it. I said it, then you said something else. And then Jordan repeated back to you, then I repeat it back to you again. It was so good. I didn't even know.
1:26
Alban: We got some feedback that made a correction on something from the last episode. And I'm not sure if the feedback is correct. So let's go. Yeah, it might be stretch to call it a correction.
1:35
Alban: Yeah, somebody wrote in and said that for Apple podcasts episode, artwork, that as long as artwork is included, within the audio file, it three tags is displayed on the Now Playing bar at the bottom of the app on the full screen on the playing screen and control center all sorts of places. And when we're doing the pre show, I started saying like, Hey, guys, I guess you were wrong on this. And both of you start telling me no. And so I just want to verify that.
1:59
Alban: This is correct. None of this is right, until I subscribe to a show. So I went and found a show that I know has artwork for the podcast. And when I click on all the episodes like yeah, it's pulling up that episode artwork.
2:10
Alban: But for some reason, once I click that plus button, and I do the follow that episode, artwork disappears. So right, and I've seen it not disappear. What happens in my app is that whatever they like the most recent episode artwork that they've used, shows for all the episodes that I play.
2:28
Alban: Interesting. So it overrides the standard podcast artwork for the latest episode artwork, regardless of which episode I'm playing. So the same thing is happening for all three of us.
2:38
Alban: Are we wrong? Right? This is three out of three that are confirming that if you do follow the podcast, episodic artwork does not show up. So I don't know. I don't know, I think we can call that a correction. If we can call it a fact check and check the facts. And think we're right.
2:56
Kevin: We, we do appreciate follow up.
3:00
Alban: We don't want to be negative about it. But yeah, it doesn't appear that this is the case, this team like this bug, I can't imagine this is the intended way that it works. So this bug is still consistent with what everyone's been seeing in the Facebook group. So yeah, but thank you for the feedback.
3:16
Kevin: Find a podcast that changes every time, open up Apple podcasts, search for it, find that you'll see all the different episodes have different artwork, when you look at them in the Browse thing. But then as soon as you follow that podcast, then you go back to your library, you click under that show, and go down and change episodes, the artwork stays the same of whatever the most recent was, at least that's the behavior that we're seeing on our phone.
3:37
Jordan: Maybe we could change the artwork for this particular episode of Buzzcast. And then listeners can test out on Apple podcasts they can unfollow and then refile the show and see if that same thing happens for them.
3:48
Kevin: Oh, yeah, I wonder if everybody unfollowed them and re follows if that would get us a boost into one of the charts or something? Let's do that.
3:52
Kevin: Everyone who listens on Apple podcasts do that.
3:57
Alban: Alright, so let us know if you see album artwork for this episode. And if you do, tweet or something at us and let us know, you can send us a booster gram if you use a different app later. But let us know if you see it. And we'll be sure to follow up on this in the future.
4:15
Jordan: IB posted a US podcast advertising revenue study. And there were some things in the study that were really, really exciting to me, because it just really shows that advertisers are interested in podcasting and are continuing to be interested in it. It be reported that podcasts advertising grew two times faster in 2021 than the total internet ad market, which is insane. That's a lot.
4:42
Alban: Yeah, so up 72% and 2021.
4:42
Alban: And they're projecting that by the end of this year, they have a set 2.1 billion so pretty intense growth projected by the company that measures podcast advertising growth, so that's a good sign there. The authority here. One thing that kept popping up in my mind, as I read through this was Apple's new policy around like inept tracking of behaviors. So if you ever notice, like when you open Facebook or another app now it's like, it's okay, if this app tracks you, or you can say, like ask not to track. what that's done is it's really broken the link between ads, especially inside of Facebook, but also Snapchat and Instagram, is broken the link between those and actually making purchases online. And it's made it much harder for certain companies like Facebook to continue to grow. I did wonder if the tracking is kind of gotten worse on the Facebook side, and maybe for some other apps, I wonder if it's maybe encouraged more advertisers to get a little creative. And if that's maybe given us a little bit of this boost. 72% is pretty incredible, especially when the industry, like you said, was growing about half that rate?
5:51
Jordan: Well, I think that they're probably getting lots of reports of return on investment for podcasts, especially since I know that when I have sponsorships, I do ad reads and stuff, I get specific codes or specific URLs that my listeners get sent to. So I think it's interesting that podcasting does not have a whole lot of information about the audience that you're reaching. And yet advertisers are really putting a lot of money into podcasting.
6:13
Jordan: Even though we don't have all those statistics and stuff that a lot of these other platforms have.
6:21
Kevin: Yeah, I'd be super interested in seeing the breakdown of where this money is funneling in through. Obviously, Spotify has the ability to provide more data than hitting the open podcast ecosystem, mostly meaning third party apps, Apple podcasts, things like that. If you advertise specifically on Spotify, a large chunk of the ads that they sell, almost, maybe it's even all of them. So I don't want to misspeak here. But they are investing heavily in providing selling ads, giving out opportunities for podcasters, to be able to monetize in that way.
6:48
Kevin: And then they're doubling down on the amount of data that they can provide. Because all the plays are happening through the Spotify app, I think what happens is any plays that extend beyond Spotify, I don't know that ads are being inserted in those in the same way. And there may be exceptions to that. But I would say if those plays are happening in the outside of the Spotify ecosystem, then they certainly don't have the same level of data that they can associate back. So I'm wondering how much of this is happening through Spotify, like how much of that how much money was $1.4 billion is coming through Spotify? How many is how much is coming through other places? And then what's the breakdown of like super high level podcasts, obviously, the large production companies that gimlets in the podcast and the Joe Rogan's and and those and how much is making it down to the indie podcaster level, like, let's just say people who are doing, I don't know, maybe 1000 downloads a month or something, which is still that's a significant amount of interest that you're gathering around your content, what's the percentage of podcasters that are doing 1000 2000 3000 downloads a month, how much of that 1.4 million or a billion dollars is actually making it to them versus the people at the top?
7:52
Alban: I don't think they broke that out specifically. But one thing they really stuck out to me was they did year over year between dynamic ad insertion and baked in ADS. And so 2018, it was like 5050, a little bit more people were actually doing baked in ads, where they're doing host read reads that are, you know, related to the product, kind of like in our mind the top of the line ad. And then last year, that was only a third two thirds were dynamic ads. And their projections as we continue is for 84% of all ad reads to be done by dynamic ad insertion.
8:29
Alban: And so that does seem to indicate to me that it's probably even more heavily skewed to those top end shows that are signing up with products that, you know, they often want 5000 plays per month, which we know is puts you really in the top few percent of podcasts. So I'm thinking this is really not something that's you know, trickling down yet to the to the indie podcasters. And it's probably primarily focused on these really large shows.
8:52
Jordan: You know, I actually kind of disagree with that a little bit, because I know that there's podcasts that get 200 downloads per episode in the first 30 days or 501,000 downloads in the first 30 days.
9:02
Jordan: And they're still able to get sponsorships through popcorn through advertise cast through emailing companies that do sponsor podcasts or they're coming in in a network or collaboration kind of thing as a group and pitching this podcast group and then sharing the income from that I know that that's a method that a lot of podcasters have used that are the smaller indie podcasts. And so I think that there is a market share for smaller podcasts. And yeah, maybe they'll get $15 per episode for an ad spot. But, you know, according the study, podcast ads are starting to mirror the industry standard of 15 and 32nd ads as opposed to like a 62nd ad. And so that means that you can actually fit more ad reads into your podcasts without it taking up a huge amount of time.
9:53
Alban: One of the things that stuck out to me was that we're seeing a little bit of a growth in post roll ads. So did you see this bit where you know This year they project a third of all plays, ads are going to be pre roll that's before the content 64% mid roll in the middle of the content. But we've now grown from two and probably to 4%.
10:11
Alban: Post roll ads. And if you ever read sounds profitable, Brian Barletta, he always says, you know, post roll is BS, like nobody is ever listening to those post roll ads. And if they are, it's in the desperation to like delete the episode or move on. It's rarely that people are thinking like, Oh, this is something I've got to listen to intently. So I'm interested to see you know, we're getting more plays there. I don't know if that's an indication of heavier ad load. That podcast they used to only have slots for for ads are now trying to put in eight ads. And so so the advertisers are just making do with the post roll. But it's interesting to see that grow, especially when we know that's definitely not the optimal spot for podcast ad reads.
10:55
Kevin: So here's my opinion on that. I think pre roll and post roll is an opportunity for the podcast host to either do like a brand deal or a host read ad, if you put something at the beginning of the episode that's programmatic, it's too easy to skip over. And the same thing, if it's a post roll, it's too easy to move on to the next episode. I think programmatic is the future of podcast advertising. I think that's the only way that it scales totally up and down, regardless of your audience size. And I think we need to think about selling audiences instead of specific shows. But that aside, those only work best like they, they only work in the middle, like when somebody is in the middle of listening to engage in content, they've got their phone, sit down, or they're driving in their car, they're not going to pull it out and hit the skip button, that's when you can actually get an ad in as long as it's a good ad. And it's engaging. And it's not, it's not too long, it's not a three minute ad read or something, it's gonna force me to come out and skip over. So you know, things, 30 seconds thing, 40 seconds think relative to whatever this podcast is about mid roll, that's a great place for programmatic. If you're thinking about pre roll and post roll again, my opinion on how that works is that needs to be as soon as I click on that podcast episode, I want to hear the host or a familiar voice talking to me. And so it's a great opportunity to endorse something to do a host right ad.
12:02
Kevin: And the same thing at the end.
12:02
Kevin: If it's not the host, if it's a commercial playing at the end, I'm out. I'm moving on to the next episode. But as the host says, Hey, I hope you enjoyed that episode. Thanks for sticking around. One of the ways you know that we support this show is through great partners like XYZ, and I'm gonna talk to you a little bit about that, that'd be fine. I might listen to that, again, as long as an obnoxious long, not two or three minutes, but I'm happy to support shows in that way. But programmatic stuff I think has to live in the middle. My opinion.
12:26
Alban: I remember we talked to Marty at Gumball a few years ago, and remember, one of the things he said that I thought was really smart was we will call some stuff pre roll at times. He's like, but it's never a pre roll, you know, people will use that wording. But if the episode starts with a ad, people already had it in their hand, they start clicking immediately. And then they skipped over the ad. So I think you said when even if they call it pre roll, they would still wait 30 seconds of the host doing an intro. And then before like the meat of the episode, after like kind of that intro music that would be where an ad would be. So he's like, you can call that pre roll. But really, the only thing we're interested in doing are mid roll advertisements.
13:09
Jordan: Yeah, that's that's exactly what I was thinking to is, you know, pre rolls are only beneficial to the advertiser if you have already started the episode. And then you integrate that sponsorship ad read into your episode intro before you get into the meat of it if you're going to be doing a pre roll. And so that's kind of the hard thing with dynamic pre rolls. Like the dynamic ad insertion. I know that it's growing. I know that advertisers are really interested in it. I know that it is a great way to make a lot of money for podcasts if you get a lot of downloads across your entire catalogue.
13:42
Jordan: But it's not as effective as the baked in, worked into the topic host read pre roll ads.
13:51
Kevin: Right? It's an art form to to pull it off. I remember, you know, before Joe Rogan went exclusive to Spotify would listen to his episodes once in a while. And the beginning of his episodes were like six minutes of him spewing ads. But the thing was, is that he didn't like he's a comedian. And so he made them funny and engaging.
14:05
Kevin: Like I couldn't believe that he got sponsors to sign up. And then he would throw all these profanities around the brand, but I guess they were the brands that were fine with it. But I remember I'm talking about cash app. And it's like ridiculous the way that you spoke about cash out, but you could actually listen to it because it was so ridiculous out there. And if you like his style of comedy, it's while you're listening to the show, so you listen to that ad.
14:24
Kevin: But if you're skipping over it, then you're skipping over, you know, he makes the ad content.
14:27
Kevin: And the same thing with Conan O'Brien when Conan O'Brien does add raids in the middle of a show, he's making that content, he's making them funny, he's making them engaging. And so that type of stuff can work, I think in pre roll and post roll.
14:37
Kevin: I won't skip if you make it content. But in the middle of the show, especially with programmatic you're not going to be able to make that content. So you have to keep it concise. It has to be something that's not worth me waking up my phone or pulling it out are so long that I have time to stop at a light at the you know in the car and skip over that ad and it has to be relevant to what I'm listening to. So if I'm listening to a tech show, like we want tech products if I'm listening to Do homeschooling podcasts and I don't want to hear necessarily a real estate ad. Now some of these things have big wide swaths of crossover and stuff. But that level of of targeting, I think, is critical to the success and the growth of podcasts advertising, and again, being able for it to move up and down and scale vertically, again, whether you do 100,000 downloads per episode, or 1000 downloads per episode, or maybe even, you know, 250, or 500, like you said, and just get, you know, some some pizza money or something that cover the expenses of something that you're passionate about.
15:27
Alban: One thing we keep talking about, Kevin is offline, is I think of a pretty broad consensus on like, what's the perfect podcast ad, it's the comedian that's doing the podcast doing a host read read in the middle of the episode, they're kind of tying it to the content of the episode, it's baked in. And it's related to some of the audience we're wanting, like, that's the top at the top of the line. And I think if you look at companies like Gumball they're doing that really, really well. The problem sometimes is, there's things that are perfect, that they take a lot of work. And that can hold people back from doing anything.
15:59
Alban: The metaphor I've drawn a couple times is like detailing your car, will the best way to get the cleanest car ever is to detail your car to have somebody actually go over it really carefully, and spend hours working on it. But when we invented car washes, that was a big breakthrough for people because they went, Oh, I'm not interested in $200.04 hours at work. I'm just looking for Drive Thru eight bucks, and I'm done.
16:22
Alban: And it's quite a bit cleaner, even though they know it's not perfect. And so I think my mind has shifted a bit on some of the dynamic ad insertion that the true perfect version, it's very difficult to scale all the way down to the smallest podcasts.
16:36
Alban: And as we start looking at how do we actually solve this problem for indie podcasters? I think the answer is gonna need to kind of follow that carwash metaphor a little bit, that maybe there is a carwash version of it, that's probably dynamic ad insertion is trying to solve some of these problems, and do as good of a job as it can, even while knowing it won't be 100%.
16:55
Alban: Perfect.
16:58
Kevin: Yeah, I like the carwash analogy, because when you get a car detailed, the first thing they do is they wash the car, right, and that's like 85 or 90% of the job. And you get it in the first 15 or 20 minutes, that the hose the thing down, they lather it episode, they scrub it a little bit and they wash it down. You're you're 80 or 90% of the way there, right and then the next three and a half hours is spent with the toothbrush getting in every nook and cranny and making sure every crumb and every dog hair, whatever things from the environment on the outside your car off. And you're absolutely right, there's a difference when we see the car.
17:29
Kevin: But when two cars are pulled up in a light next to each other, you can't tell the difference.
17:33
Kevin: You can only tell the difference, like when you get in and inspect it. And so when you think about that, like how does that apply to podcast advertising as a smaller show like us like we do what unlike 1500, maybe 2000 downloads in a 30 day period for a typical episode of Buzzcast. right for us to be able to find a brand sponsor and partner with us.
17:50
Kevin: Let's say we get a decent, right maybe it's $25 CPM, so 2000 downloads in 30 days, so it's$50 they're gonna pay us the amount of work that it would take for us to vet the sponsor and the sponsor to better us than for us to get talking points from them to go ahead and do sample ad reads for them to send them to them to have them approved to checked off to integrate them into our episodes. It's just not worth it for $50 Like it's hours and hours of work. So it just doesn't work. What does work is something that is very, like low level like the drive thru carwash low level of involvement, even though I might get paid a little bit less, because it's not as high quality, it brings me 80 to 90% of the way there. That's what programmatic offers. But the tools that are available for programmatic today still require more work than we think is absolutely necessary to get a good solution. So we're thinking about this, we're spending a lot of time thinking about this.
18:37
Kevin: We're trying to invent something that might be able to move the ball forward.
18:41
Jordan: You know, I think that there's also a little bit of a correlation between the expensive detailing of the car versus the cheap carwash, advertisers pay so much in CPM.
18:54
Jordan: Because there is a level of professionalism and intentionality that podcasters bring, like there's that love and thought into crafting these podcast ads that podcasters take so much time to do. And that's why they get paid so much per 1000 downloads in other digital markets and stuff like that you do not get paid nearly as much.
19:14
Jordan: I think the average that I've experienced has been like $25 per 1000 downloads, sometimes 30 $35 per 1000 downloads, some podcasters charge $45 per 1000 downloads. And it's because they're able to do that because they take so much time and thought into crafting these podcast ads. So I think that that's why advertisers are coming over to podcasting is because of the quality of advertising that we provide, as opposed to just like slapping in these pre recorded things into the pre roll and post roll.
19:45
Alban: Yeah, I've actually been listening to a little bit more radio the last few weeks just like accidentally, I guess. And I've been surprised at how bad some of the ads are like they truly are people who are just, oh, we've got a small business and it's kind of starting to grow a yes Should do advertising. And they appear to have just recorded something on their phone and 30 seconds. So he said some of them don't even clearly make it known who the company is that's talking to you. And so I definitely believe you're right, that the care that podcast ads are taking is much higher than other mediums. But I'm also starting to think of this as like a balancing act, that there are multiple things we're trying to figure out all at once. And if I want the perfect ad, what I ended up doing is I basically say that's going to be reserved for, you know, the pod save America to the world or something like these big podcasts that are doing host read ads, and are doing a really funny job of putting them in there. Where if you go listen to a smaller podcast, but they're just they don't have the time to try to make $50, the back and forth that that would take for us, it's just cost prohibitive. And there's got to be a balancing of all these interests, that we can get a good ad, we can get a decent CPM, we're not annoying the listener so much that they want to drop off. And we're kind of combining all of this together to find some sort of a revenue model that at least takes the financial burden. You know, like Kevin says, kids, little pizza money for the people who are putting the podcast together, because it does feel good, if you're starting to make some money in podcasting, at least is not costing you money, you're actually making a little money off your hobby.
21:17
Kevin: Those ads are also endorsements both ways when a podcaster is doing host write out for a company, the level of trust that they built with their audience is now being extended to whoever they're sponsored by.
21:25
Kevin: And the same thing with the sponsor. So the sponsor is putting trust in a podcaster and their voice and their opinion to put behind their brand. And so either one of those things go in a bad direction, in the eyes of the other person. So if a podcaster starts talking about stuff that the brand is not comfortable with, or the brand starts going in a direction that the podcaster is not comfortable with, that stuff falls apart, and it can fall apart, like it can get pretty ugly, right? Like you could lose some of your audience or they could lose some of their customer base. It says it's dangerous. And so what happens is, there's a lot of time upfront kind of evaluating the risk, like, do I want to endorse this company? And what do I know about them have I tried their products are actually good. And the same thing with them, like, they don't just wanna listen to your most recent episode, they're gonna spend some time listening to your history of episodes, they're probably gonna look up your social profiles and see what you're tweeting about, and what you're posting on Instagram, all that kind of stuff. And you're building this relationship. And so all that stuff just takes time. And it just ups the ante of what is involved and be able, like, the majority of podcasters just want you to money, they just want, you know, I'm spending 15 or$20, I got some hosting fees, I'd like to buy a new microphone, maybe once every couple years, maybe get a boom arm, like one day, if I could pursue this passion or this hobby, this thing that I like doing and it just doesn't cost me an arm and a leg to do it that I would love to have a little change in my pocket to be able to do it. And so that's the solution, I think that we're interested in providing.
22:45
Alban: Alright, so I've mentioned sounds profitable. And Brian Barletta, who's been doing a lot of work in podcast ads for a long time and has been writing about it on the sounds profitable newsletter. You guys do both the read sounds profitable. Yeah, absolutely.
22:55
Alban: Ariel was on the show a couple weeks ago. Yeah, exactly. So the team has grown. And Tom Webster, for anybody who doesn't know, was until the end of the month is the Senior Vice President at Edison Research. He speaks all these podcasting events. He's the author of the infinite dial, which is kind of the big podcast stats study every year that comes out from Edison Research, and been working in this industry for 20 years. So one of the most respected voices in podcasting is now moving on from Edison. And we'll be working with Brian. So let's go check out that podcast interview. Tom, thank you so much for joining me.
23:33
Tom: Hey, my pleasure. Thanks for having me back.
23:36
Alban: I'm excited to bring you on to share some good news. So tell you what, what's what's happening in the world of Tom Webster?
23:41
Tom: Well, the world of Tom Webster, Tom is changing jobs, which that may not be a big deal to some, but when you've been at the one you've had for 18 years, it's a bit it's a little bit of a big deal. So I'm leaving Edison. I've been at Edison.
23:54
Tom: Edison Research since 2004. And I'm leaving this coming month to join Brian Barletta at sounds profitable as a partner and sounds profitable. And I really kind of expand the purview of sounds profitable into something that we think is going to help make the future of audio and the future of podcasting a little bit better.
24:13
Alban: Yeah, and Brian started sound profitable, because he's a ad tech expert. He's been working in podcasting advertising for a long time. And started sounds profitable to level the playing field so that the podcast professionals but also indie podcasters had a little bit of a peek behind the curtain as to what was happening back there with all the ad dollars. Yeah,
24:33
Tom: I mean, that's one of the reasons why I was really attracted to sounds profitable and to talking with Brian because he actually is that guy.
24:38
Tom: He's really passionate about leveling up the space, improving the diversity in the space, improving the opportunities for as many people as want to make a living in the space. You know, it's been good for me, it's been good for him. There's still some barriers and there's still some challenges and we're both really passionate about doubling down on making sure that you will have the resources they need on putting out information that's going to help the space level itself up. And just encouraging the fantastic community of sponsors that Brian has put together to continue to share and grow the garden, I think, you know, everybody's been very focused on growing their little plot of the garden, and improving their share in it. But I think it's time for the industry to grow its footprint a little bit more. And that's going to require, I think, more communication and more cooperation, which we hope to facilitate.
25:29
Alban: One of the things that I feel like the entire podcast community has always really enjoyed has been your work on the infinite dial with Edison, which for anyone who's not familiar with it, it has been kind of a, I don't know, it's the keynote event for a years, where you're bringing together really great research on what's happening in audio, and particularly in podcasting. And will you be able to bring some of that over when you're working with Brian,
25:56
Tom: I am happy to announce that we have an agreement in place with Edison to be the research provider for a series of studies that we're going to put out over the next 12 months, I have a great relationship with the team there, it was really important for me to have that kind of continuity. And to know, you know, this is data I can trust and I know how to work with so.
26:15
Tom: So I'm going to continue to be working with Edison going forward. And what Brian and I are planning on doing is really sort of two separate initiatives. And the more ambitious thing that we're going to undertake is a quarterly research series, where every quarter, we're going to put out a brand new study, these studies will be sponsors. And we're actively looking for sponsorships for those now. But the intent of those is, you know, what is the information that's going to remove as many roadblocks to podcasters as we can, and we can be nimble and agile and responsive and, and continue to update those topics, and try to put out a resource every single quarter that helps the space educate itself a little bit more about its audience and their behaviors and habits. I just serve as something that's publicly and freely available to all, you know, for independents to make use of. And again, Edison will be helping with that. But we also wanted to hit the ground running with something quick and interesting to the space. And that's a study that we're calling the creators. And it's long overdue. I think it's a difficult research challenge to put out a study on who's creating podcasts, right? If you look at the percentage of people that listen to podcasts, and then take a little sliver of that that's a real research challenge. And it's been difficult to do in any kind of scientific good methodology. And you could put a link out on Twitter and say, Hey, do you make podcasts click this link?
27:34
Tom: That's not great. You know, that's what we've had. But with Edison, over the past four quarters, we have introduced a question into the podcast, consumer tracker, which is an ongoing study of weekly podcast listeners, where we've just asked, Hey, have you ever been involved with making a podcast, and over the course of a four quarters, we've put together a pretty good sample. And so this report is going to talk about the demographics of the creators, who are they, you know, age, gender, race and ethnic background? What kinds of topics are they interested in?
28:06
Tom: What are their behaviors and habits and, you know, kind of compare and contrast who these people are, that are making this content with the people that are listening to this content. So that's going to be pulling from some existing never before published data that that we've gathered at Edison over the past year, that we're going to get that out in June. But then our quarterly research series really starts in August. And we've got, I think, some exciting topics planned for that.
28:30
Alban: Yeah, that'll be incredible. I just actually something from the latest infinite dial that you brought out, which showed kind of the demographics for podcasting are shockingly close to the US population in general.
28:44
Tom: Yeah, that has changed a lot over the past three or four years. And the cohorts that have changed the most are really on the young end. And on the older end, because the middle has always been fairly strong for podcasting, it's really always had a 30 to 49 presence. It's always been strong there. But a couple things have happened. The growth rate with 55 Plus is fairly high. It's really the fastest growing cohort because it started much lower. But then on the younger end, we're also seeing as Spotify give it the Spotify taketh away, I think there was a big surge of younger listeners as a result of things like Spotify, and also YouTube, and some of them went away in the past 12 months, I think, as many of them returned offices and workplaces and school. So it's getting very close to the US population. I still think there's some opportunities at the youngest end and at the oldest end.
29:30
Alban: Yeah. Is there anything you would recommend for people who are thinking about maybe underserved audiences that there may be for people on podcast genres? You know, there seems to be way too many podcasts and certain pop culture and comedy for how many people are looking for that content? Comparatively, are there any recommendations you'd give as far as gender or age range that you could kind of target is your ideal listener?
29:58
Tom: Well, I will say this I'm not sure when this is going to air. But I think Edison is about to put out an updated rancor of genres from the podcast consumer tracker, which I can't reveal anything from. But I know that's about to hit. And one of the things that I would ask your audience to think about, is look at that ranking and challenge it. Right? Does it make sense?
30:19
Tom: Does it make sense for comedy to always be number one, which has been like every quarter? Maybe it does. But you look at some of the other categories. And I would posit that many of them kind of punch below their weight. And that's either because there isn't enough great content in those topics, which I'm not sure is true. Or people can't find it, which I'm pretty sure it's true. So that's one of the things that I would look at is look at what looks off to you in that rancor and instead of going, Oh, that can't be right.
30:43
Tom: Assume that it is and think about where the opportunities are for things that are seem to be underperforming in it.
30:50
Alban: Yeah, I think that's great advice. I, though I'm catching myself doing something I often recommend people not do, which is say, hey, find out which audience is out there and underserved and run after them.
30:59
Alban: Rather than think about, well, what's this podcast going to be about? And why is it a podcast that I will be able to stick with and be able to create great content for so make sure there's an overlap between the audience that you're hoping to serve and also that you can serve them with good content that you've enjoyed making? Yeah, cuz
31:17
Tom: it's really hard to do this. Right. It's really hard to make great podcast content, I think. So I think you have to have some confidence that you can do a great job in it before you go sort of hunting down niches, you know,
31:29
Alban: one of the things you've written about over the past year that I've really I found myself coming back to over and over is some research you did about YouTube primaries. And this just felt highly relevant to anybody that listens to Buzzcast. So could you tell me a little bit about what are you two primaries? And what did that research tell you?
31:47
Tom: Yeah, one of the questions that Edison has asked, and it's ongoing research, quarter after quarter, you know, we'll ask what platforms do you ever use to listen to podcasts? And then what platform do you most often use, right? And those things have shifted around a lot in the past year or so. And today, when you ask people, what's the platform that you use? Most often, Spotify is actually the most frequently named platform.
32:10
Tom: But when you ask, what platforms do you ever use, YouTube is number one. And this is a rock that I've been pushing uphill now for a couple of years, because I think some people in the podcasting space don't want to believe it. But there is an awful lot of podcast content that's consumed on YouTube. And, you know, you might look at some of it. And first of all, anything that we measure at Edison in the podcast, consumer tracker, we verify that it actually is available as a podcast, right that it has an RSS feed and can be consumed in a podcast client. So nothing that YouTube only gets counted in there. But you know, there's a if someone is watching The Breakfast Club, right from I heart, which is a video of their podcast, I'm not going to argue with them that that's not a podcast, if they think it's a podcast, and it's available as a podcast, and the show calls itself a podcast, then I don't think we need to litigate that anymore. But I think what people underestimate is just how powerful YouTube is as a discovery engine. And when we talk about one of the biggest problems in podcasting, everyone always talks about the discovery problem. Podcasting, I don't think has a discovery problem. I think your podcast has a discovery problem, whoever you may be your individual show has a discovery problem. And YouTube is the content search engine period, it is the one place where you know, you're going to be able to find content that you're looking for. If I want to recommend a show to you, I don't need to know if you have a Spotify account. Or if you have Apple podcasts. I can just say search for this on YouTube. And I hope you can find it. So I think to me, it's less about is this the platform for podcast consumption? For some things it is it's helpful if you have good video to go with it, obviously.
33:49
Tom: But more than that, it is a platform to find content and have content recommended to you.
33:53
Tom: And that's really the superpower of
33:57
Alban: Yeah, I think it's easy for people to imagine, well, at least right now maybe some of them in the future. They don't have a way for RSS feeds to be pulled in and put into YouTube.
34:05
Alban: And they don't have a YouTube podcast yet, and may get caught up on definitions. But the reality is there's people are uploading videos of conversations, and they're calling it a podcast. And their listeners are calling it a podcast. And it's the stuff that you are competing with. If you're putting things on RSS feeds, and you're calling yours a podcast, we can argue the semantics. Or we can say let's make sure that our podcasts, especially if you have a video component are on YouTube as well. So that when we say things like wherever podcasts are found, what your research has showed is most people who listen to podcasts or at least it I don't know if it's actually a majority, or it's just a very large group are saying at least some of the time. That's where I'm watching podcasts.
34:48
Tom: Yeah, it's number one. When you ask that question, what platforms do you ever use and it doesn't mean it's what people use most frequently. But you know, if you want to catch pod save America, if you want to catch clips from the Joe Rogan show. It's all there on YouTube.
34:58
Tom: And with, you know, millions of views, right? And I think the challenging thing is that people ask What's that video component going to be? The truth is you will do better if you have a decent video component and and even if that's just watching people talking to microphones like pod save America, or if it's a more kind of produced show, you will do better with video. But even just anything dynamic, sometimes people just want to look at something. So it would be smart to have at least some way for people to discover your content on YouTube have metadata associated with it, and be recommended.
35:33
Alban: One of the other things that you've been talking about, and you might be one of the very few people who's talked about it, and I think it's kind of under discussed is tick tock, especially as far as the discovery platform. Tiktok is, in many ways the opposite of podcasting. But I think that might kind of be its its charm.
35:49
Alban: And what makes it so great for podcasters.
35:55
Tom: Well, it may or may not make sense for podcasters to use it. But I will tell you this that tick tock, if you are a podcaster tick tock is eating the world, they're eating your lunch. They're the third most widely used social media platform now second amongst young people. And look, we've all done it, we have all sat there in bed and just scroll for, you know, for a long period of time, it is so compelling. If it picks up immediately it gives you that content like immediately. And it's short form. Yeah, you know, and you can say, well, it's good for people with short attention spans. But you know, you look up at your clock and you've spent a half an hour on tick tock your attention span is just fine. You just don't have a great attention span for crap. So what I think is important for tick tock is not to dump your podcast on tick tock, because if that's not the mindset that people are in, right, they're in a mental mode, that they want a quick snack. So find a way if you want to compete on tick tock, and if you want to try and take some of that share back mentally that I think podcasting has lost a little bit to tick tock, then you have to create content that suits the form that suits the medium. And that's not necessarily clips from your show. It's a thing unto itself.
36:59
Tom: It's a short form piece of content that introduces people to you and to your brand. And maybe they'll like it, and maybe they'll get more of that content. And then maybe then they will discover what you're doing from a podcast standpoint.
37:11
Tom: If you just throw your podcast up or throw clips of your podcast up, it's probably not going to work that well. It's a bit dicey. You do have to commit to it, I think. But you also have to understand that it is eating into our time, and we're not spending any more time with audio than we used to. Right. So knowing that that it's a bit of a zero sum game, then tick tock is a place to compete.
37:34
Alban: Yeah, we've seen quite a few podcasts on Buzzsprout go viral through tick tock. And what's happened with most of them is, like you're saying they're not just uploading the podcast or a clip of the podcast. Instead, they're creating a new piece of content with the same story. And so when it kind of comes to mind is a podcast about disasters called marked safe. And so they just picked one of their favorite episodes about a roller coaster disaster, where there's a collision between rollercoasters, and they just tell this really compelling, terrible story. And they're putting up visuals of roller coasters. And I don't imagine it was the one from the accident, but you're caught and you're sucked in. And it's like, if you want to learn more about this story, and all of the details in the aftermath, go listen to this podcast. So they didn't sell it as like, here's a trailer for the podcast, they told the whole story. And they're like, but if you kind of like this kind of stuff, we have a podcast for it.
38:31
Alban: And the podcast was getting 1000s of new subscribers every day. And this is for a podcast was relatively small. So for them, they just saw this massive spike. And it was all due to they put out a great piece of content that caught the algorithm in Tik Tok and a ton of people really enjoyed it.
38:49
Tom: What you just described, I think, is a fantastic discipline for any podcaster. You know, I mentioned this at Podcast Movement last year. You know, whenever I'm asked, How long is the perfect podcast? How long should a podcast be? My answer is generally shorter than the last one. Yeah. And obviously, there's a limit to that. But the discipline of communicating a story in 20 seconds, 30 seconds, 60 seconds. Everybody should do that. I'm not saying that.
39:16
Tom: That's what you do from now on.
39:19
Tom: But if you can't do it, then that's how your podcast gets better is learning those skills.
39:22
Tom: Not that that's always what you're going to do. But once you've learned that discipline, and you've just been ruthless, and cutting to the bones of a story, you'll never think about it the same way and your actual regular length podcast. I guarantee you will get better.
39:37
Tom: Yeah,
39:38
Alban: I think that's a great point. So Tom, what is next with sounds profitable? And when can we look forward to the indie podcasters or the creators coming out?
39:49
Tom: Yeah, the creators will come out sometime in June. I started officially June 1. So I think the first things that you're going to see from sounds profitable that I'm involved with are going to be additions to the new newsletter. But then we're working on future studies, we're working on a couple of events that we're going to be able to talk about really, really soon. So if you're not subscribed to sounds profitable, it's free, do the thing. It's definitely one of the must reads, I think in the industry every week. So that's the best place to keep up on all of that.
40:17
Alban: Great. Well, we will put a link to that in the show notes. We'll also link to your Twitter, which I personally think is an excellent follow and everybody should check it out.
40:25
Alban: And make sure you subscribe too.
40:25
Alban: I hear things with Tom Webster, which is one of my personal favorite podcasts about podcasting. So, Tom, thank you so much for joining us and hope to talk to you soon.
40:36
Tom: Absolutely. Thanks, Alban.
40:41
Jordan: Some bad news for a lot of podcasters is that Zoom has changed their free account duration, from unlimited to 40 minutes, which is really bad, a lot of podcasters use Zoom, because it's free, their bootstrapping their podcast.
40:57
Jordan: Now, they're going to be limited to 40 minutes for even one on one.
41:03
Alban: So it's all about who sets up the meeting. If the person who sets up the meeting has a paid account, you're good.
41:09
Alban: But regardless of how long it is, if you're both on free, the person who sets it up is on a free account, you used to be on one on one meetings able to go as long as you want it, the old way is to be a group of like three or more. If I set it up, and I'm not an unpaid account was limited to 40 minutes. And now they're saying even the one on one, interviews and chats, those are gonna be limited to 40 minutes. So it's well, so it kind of is that that like point where most podcasts are going to be running into this limit. If you're recording a podcast right now, we're recording what to us is a shorter episode. And we're at 55 minutes of recording time so far. So we would already been kicked off by zoom. This is my Market arraign. But I can't help but look at this and get excited for our friends at Riverside and squad guest. This is a massive pain from a lot of podcasts. I think it's something like 670 3% of podcasters. Who do interviews use Zoom. And I think everyone home right now should be considering Well, if I'm going to be paying for something, maybe I would rather be paying for something that's going to give me higher quality audio than a zoom call.
42:16
Kevin: Yeah. What Are there any other free alternatives? Like can you record a FaceTime call?
42:19
Kevin: Can you record a Skype call? Are there free options there that you're aware of?
42:24
Alban: There probably are some free options, there's probably my first three options, the free options, my experiences that were close to the free options were significant, not as good.
42:34
Alban: They weren't as they really were not as nearly have the benefit Zaim had then have already used them. So if you used it to talk to your kids teacher, or you're using your work, you're more comfortable when someone asks you to be on their podcast, right now, if you're looking for something and you are saying well, if I'm going to pay him an upgrade, I would really be looking over at squad cast or Riverside, take one of them for a test run reading Riverside for this interview. Now we use squad cast in the past, both are really good. And they're going to be quite a bit better audio than just keeping your Zoom Room, if that's the only thing you're using it for. Yeah, make sure if you're going to have to upgrade upgrade to something really nice. One of the
43:13
Kevin: things that we don't talk about very often is clean feed, it's clean feed.net And they have a free solution if you want to do audio only so if you're just doing audio show you're not doing video, and it doesn't necessarily benefit you to see the person who you're talking to. Then clean feed has a free account with unlimited session recording and high quality audio and multiple parties and stuff like that. So clean feed might be a place to go. But if you definitely need that vo component then squad cast and Riverside be our next recommendations.
43:38
Alban: So you can consider it I think if you're gonna have to pull out a credit card I want to pull it out for an upgrade and I know that Riverside and I know that squad cast are significantly better audio. The downside for clean feed like Kevin made a good point cliffie does have the audio only for free but that literally means like you don't see the other people so we're only recording the audio from this but we can all see each other in this Riverside room. With clean feed it's more you know think more like a phone call that you don't expect to see the person
44:10
Jordan: that's why Zen caster has to
44:11
Kevin: write and remember we have promo codes for both squad cast and Riverside you'd log in to your Buzzsprout account click on Resources and then partner discounts we have 50% off for the first four months for squad cast and 50% off for the first three months for Riverside so be sure to use those if you want to check out either one of those platforms
44:30
Alban: that kind of a segue so the we noticed Jordan you wrote this in the outline our podcasts getting worse
44:38
Jordan: I'm gonna say no
44:40
Alban: this podcast is yes
44:43
Jordan: so yeah, we phonic did a study on Apple podcast reviews and they kind of analyzed what the average reviews were for different podcasts for podcasts as a whole for like the last however many years and yeah, it's So the blog's called our podcasts getting worse. We'll link to it in the show notes.
45:04
Jordan: But I think the answer is no podcasts are not getting worse.
45:07
Jordan: I think that podcasts reviewers are getting worse.
45:09
Kevin: What's going on? Oh, good take. Yeah, that was kind of my thought on it too. Like, I think as podcasts get more mainstream, then comments are gonna get more mainstream. And typically, comments are more negative than positive. In the early days, you have early adopters who were pretty excited about a new medium, and they're listening to shows or finding shows that they like, and they're giving positive feedback. But does that audience expands and people are looking for more and more new shows, you start to get a better representation of what we see across the entire internet and across the entire Internet. In general, if people like something, they're less likely to give it a thumbs up. But if they dislike something, they're more likely to go ahead and speak out. Their objection to it is an interesting article. But I take it with a grain of salt.
45:46
Kevin: And like, I think it's probably good that more people are commenting. But as we get more comments, they're probably going to skew a little bit more negatively.
45:53
Alban: There's also quite a bit of stuff that we see podcast hosted by women get more negative reviews, you get quite a bit of just people who find shows through big recommendations or their top of the lists on different charts.
46:06
Alban: They get a lot of like casual listeners who swing by and they listen and they go, man, this podcast stinks. And it's like, yeah, but the things you're complaining about are the focus of the podcast. Like, if you've thought about what the podcasts are about, you would have known it wasn't for you. So you can't be mad at them. Like one of the things. That's in our outline, people were complaining that the daily has too many political topics and views. Like, of course, the daily is talking about politics, that is what the New York Times and news are doing. And so if you showed up to the daily, expecting for it to not have political topics, then you were misinformed. And that's not really an indication of the daily being too political. It's more of an indication of yourself not knowing what the podcast was going to be about.
46:47
Jordan: Yeah, I mean, it's crazy that the daily is one of the top podcasts ever. And they're saying in this article that the average rating given to the daily in 2001, was 3.2 3.2, for one of the most listened to podcasts on this planet. And that just can't be accurate.
47:03
Jordan: That's just people being jerks.
47:07
Kevin: Again, my opinion, but I think the healthier way to approach stuff is like find stuff you like and then say why you like it, don't just say, Oh, it's a great show. Love the host, whatever. Like, why you like it, like, what is it that you find engaging guy, they're funny, they're, they always find an interesting take on something, or whatever it is unique to you that you'd like to say why you like it. And if you don't like something, you know, my opinion, is just move on.
47:29
Kevin: Like, we don't need the negative stuff. I mean, again, it can be constructive. It can be like, there's really good content here. But it's not edited very well, it was too long break. So they go on too many rabbit trails. So I'd like to see them, like improve on that. Like, if you're giving constructive feedback. You know, hopefully, for the creators, I guess that's fine. But the idea of it's not an Amazon product, it's like you're not trying to help people figure out which like USB adapter to buy, you know, this one broke on me in a week or this one didn't. It's like, this is entertainment stuff or educational stuff. So if you'd like stuff, you know, put a good comment down, let people know what you found helpful or interesting about it, why you decided to follow show while you listen to every week. And if you don't just like move on and find something you like.
48:04
Alban: This is definitely a piece of my like life philosophy that, you know, life is made better by pointing out the things that we like. And we want more of rather than just focusing on the things that we don't like, I could vent on any number of subjects and people and views I don't like in the world. But in the end, all I'm doing is getting more airtime to things I dislike. Instead, go out of your way, if you have five favorite podcasts, make sure you've reviewed all of them. And even if you don't use Apple podcasts, it's probably the most important place for people to get reviews. Go and open up the app and leave a review or go leave a review on pod chaser or give it a thumbs up or a star on Spotify. Go around and leave positive reviews for the podcast that you really enjoy. So that they know and other listeners know this is the kind of stuff you want to see in the world. It's a bummer that you know most of the reviews we're leaving our negative and saying this is what I don't want to see in the world. We also need to be picking the things that we want to win.
48:59
Jordan: And to be honest with you I am so sick of podcast reviews that I actually don't read them before I listened to a podcast,
49:06
Alban: your your review. I ever review
49:09
Jordan: hater and going through even some of my most favorite podcasts are ones that are just so well produced. There's still just trolls in the review section that are just hating on something silly, you know what I mean? Or giving it a one star and not giving an explanation of that. And you know, I get that too. I actually to protect myself from that kind of like negativity. I have my husband read my reviews. I never read my reviews. He will read them and he will tell me when I get a really good one. He will tell me when I get a really funny bad one that we can laugh about. But I will not read my reviews ever.
49:45
Jordan: I don't do it and I kind of just want to see podcast reviews go away. I know it's an unpopular opinion, but it's really rough because I think that the new listeners coming in, they have this impression that all podcasts need to be like the things Produced by NPR are wondering, you know, they have this like really high budget thing in their heads. And so they go to these podcasters that are amazing podcasters. But maybe they're doing things on a shoestring budget, you know, they didn't have $100,000 to drop on this season in production. Yeah. And they're comparing it to these huge companies, and then being like, can be better. And it's the best that that person can do,
50:24
Kevin: then podcasts are great, because they're not for everybody. Like the best podcasts are designed for a specific audience specific type of listener, right, like creators have a Sona in mind when they're creating the show.
50:34
Kevin: And maybe it's somebody like them, or maybe they're trying to create it for somebody who's a little different than them, but they're usually targeting it towards a certain type of person. And the best podcasts are like, you know, super specific, like the finer detail you get in the type of person that you're creating a show for usually, the more passionate the audience that you develop around it. And so I think the best podcasts are that way. Now, they're not necessarily the most popular, the most popular, of course, are the daily and stuff like that they they appeal to a broader audience, but they also have an equal number of haters on both sides. And so I think, I think what you're talking about is there's a really great opportunity, like maybe our friends, I don't know if any of our friends at pod chaser listen to this episode, but they do they have a great review site, I would love it to be able to like go in. And maybe by default, we're not looking at negative reviews, or reviews, less than three stars, like I'm trying to find a new show. So if there are positive reviews that people tell me as I'm reading them, what they like about the show that I can see if any of that resonates with me, and maybe I want to listen, it's not super helpful for me to hear like I hated the show, because of this, that and the other. Again, I'm trying to find something positive, not something negative. So if I'm reading what people like about it, and none of that resonates with me, I'll move on. And if I find something that does resonate with me, I'll take a listen. The negative stuff just doesn't seem super helpful. Like I'm not saying hide it or censor it, like it should still be there. But it's not the most relevant for me when I'm trying to find something new.
51:43
Alban: Amazon does a decent job of this with the most helpful positive and the most helpful negative review where on each product, it will have somebody saying, hey, this was a great USB adapter. Here's what I really enjoyed about it. Here's what worked and it's still holding up two years later. And then somebody else who's saying, oh, actually watch out for this, if you have this computer won't work. And so you see, like, oh, for people who don't like it, here are the reasons why you would want to watch out for people who love it, here's what you can get excited about. And those are really useful for me, because sometimes you see that negative one, you go, Oh, that doesn't apply to me. And you see the positive one you get that does apply? Perfect. This looks like a great product. For me. It is strange to me, though, when I look at reviews, I mean, I just looked at a few from some of our shows, and people who have like glowing reviews and their four stars is so strange to me. If like you love something, and it's a free piece of content that you're actively engaging with every single week, if you're going to leave a review, if you love it, leave five stars, if you don't think it's worth five stars, and maybe tell them how to make it five stars.
52:42
Alban: That's what the graders are trying to do. So help them out.
52:47
Kevin: I think there's a there's a big percentage of the world that will never give five stars, like five stars is the Mount Everest, and it's not for everybody. And they're, like very reluctant to give that up to anybody, even if it's something they love.
52:57
Jordan: Oh, yeah, I get that all the time. I have reviews on my podcast that say this is my favorite podcast ever. I love this podcast. I use this every single night. And they give me four, three stars. on your favorite podcast, if you can't give me five stars, like what do I need to do?
53:14
Kevin: Well, maybe it's an optimistic thing. Maybe it's like, I think this is the best I've ever found. But I don't want to give up hope that there could be something better one day four and five star reviews.
53:25
Alban: Yeah, if you can figure out what you don't love about something, make sure you pass on that information. And if you want to give feedback to this show, one of the best ways to do it is with a buzz boost.
53:34
Alban: Smoothie.
53:41
Kevin: So there's some sad news around buzz boost is that they've been they've been like falling off. You know, we didn't even do them last week, because we didn't have any. We love hearing from people who are listening the show. And I know that everyone's not using value for value enabled podcast apps.
53:53
Kevin: But I really do want to encourage anybody who hasn't tried it yet to do it. And, and like I've said before, if you send me a lightning invoice to my twitter DM, I'll be happy to fund that invoice for you. As long as it's 5000 SATs or less, actually, with the Bitcoin crash that we've had made Wingo six it's cheaper than ever to get involved in value for value. But shoot me an invoice. Let me find your wallet and then start supporting shows. And again, you don't have to support this one, but support some show. It's a fantastic way to interact with our audience. Again, it's not about the money. First and foremost. For us. It's about supporting the industry supporting podcasters and sending some value around for things that you find valuable.
54:25
Kevin: It's a lot of fun. So go find an app fountain is great. Cast thematic is great. This week, we've had one buzz boost or what are they called histograms from Dave Jones. He is the leader over podcast index Podcasting.
54:38
Kevin: Q&A was his podcast. He gave us 1845 sets. And he gave some commentary on the last episode because I talked about we're talking about chapter markers and how I have a tendency to jump around he said Kevin, you listen to the end of a podcast before you listen to the beginning question mark. And yeah, sometimes I do not on all shows not on the podcasting to show like there are there are podcasts that are more kind of like storytelling and they're walking you through between then and those I listened to As the original artist intended, but then I listened to a lot of tech podcasts too. And so they'll cover things from anything from the new Apple mouse to the new Apple monitor to the studio display or whatever. And those I'd like jumping to specifically whatever piece of content I want to hear their review or take on.
55:11
Kevin: But I don't necessarily care about what's happening. Like, I don't care about what's happening in the Microsoft Surface world. So if a tech podcast that I'm listening to is reviewing the latest thing that's happening in the service world, I don't care but I'll skip ahead to like I'm a Mac guy. So I'll listen to what's going on there review of the MAC studio,
55:25
Alban: I have no idea what we're talking about. I just, I'm hung up on the fact he said, I don't listen as the original artists intended as if you're listening to a prince album on vinyl or something,
55:36
Kevin: you have to respect that.
55:36
Kevin: Like there are a lot of people like Jordans podcast, if you did chapters in your dream full episode, you would not want somebody jumping to the end of the story without hearing like how you got there. That's a real thing. And so I'm not encouraging. But I don't mean any disrespect to artists who put things together Jordan, like your dream for podcast and others. And Dave Jones, specifically yours. The Podcasting Q&A. I know you guys like people just the beginning.
55:57
Kevin: And so I respect that and I do it and I shoot you boosts whenever you talk about cool stuff, so I love it. He also asked if I eat dinner food for breakfast and breakfast for dinner. And I do that as well sometimes. So there you go.
56:09
Jordan: Who doesn't steak for breakfast waffles for dinner every day. Like yeah,
56:14
Kevin: that's the best. So thanks for the feedback. Thanks for boosting and please somebody else hop on and shoot us a booster gram. We want to hear from you.
56:22
Jordan: Well, I think that concludes this episode of Buzzcast. So thanks for listening and as always keep podcasting