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Clarity + Accountability (And Why Your Business Needs Both) · Remodelers On The Rise

• Kyle Hunt: Thanks for tuning into the Remodelers on the Rise show. Whether you're listening or watching, I appreciate you being here. If this was helpful, make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss the next one. We're putting out new episodes every single week focused on helping you build a better remodeling business with real stories, practical ideas, and things you can actually take and use. If you're on YouTube, hit that like button and turn on notifications so you know when new episodes drop. Welcome to the Remodeler's On The Rise show. It was just last week. I was actually sitting face to face with today's guest. His name is Mark Gill. He runs a business called On The Mark Advisory. Tell the people how much fun that was to see each other last week. What if your website works so well, you canceled your Google ads entirely. That's exactly what happened for this month's sponsored remodeler story. Evan Clark, co-owner of Elevation Basements in Denver, Colorado has been working with CGN and here's what he had to say. We canceled. What if your website works so well, you canceled your Google ads entirely. That's exactly what happened for this month's sponsored remodeler story. Evan Clark, co-owner of Elevation Basements in Denver, Colorado has been working with CGN and here's what he had to say. We canceled. Mark Gill: Man, we drank coffee, we talked business, talked a little personal, had a good time, got to meet your daughter, which was ⁓ awesome, right? Kyle Hunt: all of our Google ads in January, we've already received quite a few leads this month. I think we have 16 or 17 leads this month. So it's been pretty solid. And the numbers back that up since working with CGN elevation basements grew from 2.94 million to 4.6 million in revenue, a 1.66 million increase in a single year. Their close rate nearly doubled going from 29.4%. all of our Google ads in January, we've already received quite a few leads this month. I think we have 16 or 17 leads this month. So it's been pretty solid. And the numbers back that up since working with CGN elevation basements grew from 2.94 million to 4.6 million in revenue, a 1.66 million increase in a single year. Their close rate nearly doubled going from 29.4%. If you're listening on a podcast app, a five-star review goes a long way and helps more remodelers find the show. We've got great links below or in the show notes where you can connect with us, check out our remodelers community and learn more about our coaching and resources. Appreciate you very much. See you on the next episode. Yes, and the boyfriend. Mark Gill: and the boyfriend and the boy, see I was good. I let the boyfriend come later and the boyfriend. Kyle Hunt: Yes, yes, we were just sitting there at the B-Cat Brighton Coffee House and Theater and then my my sweet daughter came in with her boyfriend and they were studying, they were locked in for a couple hours studying their butts off and Mark and I had, yes, we did have a lovely time. Thank you for making that time. Mark was ⁓ in town ⁓ on some business and work that he was doing here in Michigan. Did it make you want to move to Michigan, Mark? to 51.8 % and they went from ranking in the top 10 for fewer than 25 keywords to over 240. No paid ads, just organic leads from homeowners who were already sold before they ever picked up the phone. If you want to see the full breakdown along with case studies from other design build firms with real numbers behind them, go to contractorgrowthnetwork.com forward slash results. to 51.8 % and they went from ranking in the top 10 for fewer than 25 keywords to over 240. No paid ads, just organic leads from homeowners who were already sold before they ever picked up the phone. If you want to see the full breakdown along with case studies from other design build firms with real numbers behind them, go to contractorgrowthnetwork.com forward slash results. Mark Gill: Sure. Well, it was a nice day. I've been in Michigan on minus 20 with two feet of snow days, right? So that was a nice sunny day. So it had as good a chance as any. I don't know if it wiped out the minus 20 days, but you know. Kyle Hunt: Because you've been here before, you had some family connection. That's true. CGN publishes these regularly so you can see exactly what's possible for a firm at your stage. That's contractorgrowthnetwork.com slash results. CGN publishes these regularly so you can see exactly what's possible for a firm at your stage. That's contractorgrowthnetwork.com slash results. Yeah, that's that's like people there up in northern Michigan. There's literally Northern Michigan University. I think when you go there for in the summertime, it's like this is the most amazing thing ever. And then sometimes they trick you and then you come back in the winter and there's literally feet of snow. But it spring is spring and summer's on the horizon here in Michigan and all across the fruited plains. But we're not here to talk about the weather. We're here to talk about how clarity can create accountability. We are here to talk about the importance of clarity and roles, the importance of the handoff between sales and production, the importance of systems instead of being, instead of just being superheroes in your business, let's be more driven by running on systems and not just superhero talent, if you will. ⁓ Mark, give people a little snippet of your background and what you do now, and then we'll dive into clarity of role and accountability. Mark Gill: Absolutely. So my background goes back through a few things, but relevant to this topic, I was a flood insurance adjuster for a good while. I did FEMA work. Coming out of that, I did sales, ⁓ design, and a general manager at a small residential remodeling company. Moved up to a larger residential remodeling company. ⁓ In that company, was the sales person, design manager, eventually the general manager, bought equity in that company. Ran that company for a good eight, nine, 10 years. We tripled in revenue during that period. ⁓ Went from owner-centric to team-centric, which is great. ⁓ That journey came to an end a little while ago. And now I go into companies that are either stuck in a spot where the owner-centric model is stalled and they want to go farther. And I help them with that. or companies that are two or three iterations past that, because we all grow two or three iterations and changes of how we operate between, you know, 3 million and 15. And I, what I do is go in and help them assess their systems, assess their team, and then I'll physically go on site and help them remodel that construction. Kyle Hunt: I see what you did there. ⁓ Define owner-centric, because I bet you, it's not a phrase that probably a lot of people know, but with a little definition, there are probably some hands that grow up and go, ⁓ that's part of my problem. Mark Gill: Yeah. Well, it's interesting. The one of the good comparisons is a dentist office. So when you go to the dentist, you meet somebody at the front door that checks you in, somebody that takes you and sets you down, somebody that puts all the stuff on you, you got to wear somebody that cleans your teeth and inspects this and takes pictures. The end of the day, when it's time to drill a hole in your tooth, the big money guy comes in. He or she drills the tooth that generates the big bill. They go on to the next person and then somebody else comes in and cleans you up and you know, get you prepped and get you out the door, takes your bill and sends you on your way. And so what happens in the dentist office is everybody preps the dentist to come in and do the big procedure, make the big money and go on and do it again. The dentist is out for that day. What happens at the dental office? Not much, right? And so a lot of times companies are run the same way. They're built for a prolific person. Kyle Hunt: Mm-mm. We got a problem. Mark Gill: to be able to produce at a very prolific level. So it's a company of helpers around one person. And often those companies can grow to the limit of that one person. And once that person's bandwidth is absorbed, right, you either stop growing or you re-systematize to a non-owner-centric process. Kyle Hunt: Hmm. I was working with a client, actually I started doing business with him 2012, I think. I've been doing this a minute. And we worked for a number of years together and they kind of popped up after five years or so. hadn't talked to him too much since then. We're friends on Facebook, so we kind of stay in touch that way. And ⁓ he's ready. Him and his wife are ready to not be owner-centric anymore. And they brought their son, is involved in the business now. ⁓ We're talking through org chart changes. We're talking through what is going to need to fall off his plate of responsibility in order for this business to truly be less owner centric and for them to start to ride off into the sunset, not fully, but have a little bit more flexibility. And we're talking different strategies. We're talking different things. And as, as the conversation rolled around, said, sir, I won't use his name, sir. Um, this whole thing. is gonna revolve around your ability to do this. And these are things you've been thinking about for years and years and years. I even remember talking to you about some of these things. You care so much about your reputation. You care so much about the client experience. You care so much about the detail that is keeping you kind of stuck where you're at. What are we gonna do about this? So that story that you kind of shared and even that's an example is something that a lot of people listening to this, they're kind of stuck in that. Mark Gill: Yep. Yep. Kyle Hunt: area of things. ⁓ So we'll talk about that a little bit more today. Today. You also mentioned I need to sneak this in. You mentioned going to the dentist and I went to the dentist earlier in the year and that went well and I've left the dentist feeling great. I'm like, ⁓ even the dentist said I have teeth. I, you know, yeah, I felt great. He goes, you know what? You got strong teeth. Your teeth are going to outlive you. And I thought, well, I never knew I had strong teeth. That was great. And Mark Gill: Very few people say that. I left the dentist feeling great. Kyle Hunt: I came out of that going, I need to go get a physical. I need to go get a physical. So I had a physical last month and then I got some blood work done. So this is all good. And then I got an email yesterday related to the blood results. I'm not even going to tell people what happened until the very end of this podcast. And then if you listen in and you listen the whole time, I will tell you the rest of the story as Paul Harvey used to say, well, Paul, you know, Paul Harvey. Mark Gill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. of the story. I know Paul Harvey. Yes. Kyle Hunt: Paul Harvey, great voice of radio. So talk to me about how clarity of role, the clarity of the role of our team members, how does that tie in with being able to have some accountability, have some clear responsibility? Talk about that idea. Mark Gill: What's interesting, the, ⁓ lot of times what you find in those owner centric companies is I need the owner says I need help and they hire a person and they give that person all the things that at that moment in time they wanted help with. And then they, man, I need more help and to hire another person. And so some of the things that the first person wasn't doing so well, they hand off to the next new person in and some other things they want help with a hand in. And eventually you get two, three, four people around you. and you ask them, what's your job? Well, I help with this. Well, I do that. Right. And if you ask the team, say, okay, who's responsible for the estimate being accurate? Well, the owner kind of does this and I kind of do that. And the other person kind of does this. And so when you say who's responsible for it, there's no good answer. And I assume we all hire great people. They want to win. They want to succeed. They want to do their best. They want to take care of their clients. They want to take care of their owners, their company themselves. They want to do great work. And what's it coming upon us as we grow our companies to let them know what they're absolutely responsible for. And I used a particular word, they're responsible instead of accountable. Kyle Hunt: Hmm, a couple things you did absolutely responsible. Mark Gill: absolutely responsible for. So I am responsible that the estimate that I provide is adequate to build the project we are going to contract for. How am I accountable for that? I'm accountable for that and that estimate should be plus or minus 2 % slippage and grippage over under however we want to call it. So I know that I'm responsible for that estimate to be executable and I know how I will be held accountable to that estimate at the end of the day. good employee in a small company, they'll figure out the rest of the stuff. call them SOPs, right? How am I going to do that? The smaller the company, the less aggressive those things need to be. The SOPs need to be. You're going to build three estimates. You're to build one for sales, one for ballpark, one we're going to contract. You need to have cost codes. You need to have standard cost items. You need to have trade bids. You need to have blah, blah, right? All the expectations. So we come back to that. Kyle Hunt: Mm-hmm. Mark Gill: that employee, you know, or that team member months later and say, Hey, you neither gave me an estimate that from which I could build that project, nor were you within 2 % slippage or 2 % plus or minus cost. Now we can go back to say, okay, what were the standards by which that estimate were built? So when I'm building the contract estimate, I want all the trades in and I want them Kyle Hunt: Mm-hmm. Mark Gill: Did I have it, did I not? Yes, no, maybe. I want all my major items quoted, no more than a certain number of allowance items. I need all the scopes that are on the drawings listed in that estimate. And then I can go back and say, we didn't hit the score, we didn't hit what we were responsible for, and I can go back and troubleshoot the why. That trade croat we wrote. Kyle Hunt: Mm-hmm. were iffy, we were iffy. Yep, that trade, that plumber didn't give us fixed price because we didn't have this quite set. We didn't really fully develop out the scope on that. We settled for a couple allowances here that we shouldn't have and that came back and bit us. Mark Gill: That's right. That's right. And we didn't transfer all of our scope fully into the contract and we left a gap for the client. So now I go back and troubleshoot. And when we want responsible employees, what we want them to know is what's their expectations. What are they responsible for and how are they going to be graded? And then what we want them to know is I am not here to say, man, Kyle, you stink. We're here just to go back to the system. We go where to go wrong. Kyle Hunt: Mm-hmm. Mark Gill: Can we correct it? Where do we correct it? How do we make the adjustments so that the next time we can be responsible for what we own and we can hit the accountability mark at end of the day. Kyle Hunt: Hmm. Well, you made it sound so easy, Mark. Nothing to it. Now, in that example you gave where there's a little bit of, well, he does a little of this, a little bit of that, you know, that idea of if one person isn't fully responsible for it, nobody's responsible for it. I can't go back and do you agree with that statement? And how do we, how do we firm that up? How do we make sure even though people are contributing, there's one person that really owns that responsibility. Mark Gill: Nothing to it. Nobody's responsible. So I'll give you a great chat GPT story. have one of my clients. Kyle Hunt: Boom. I hear chat GPT is the horse and buggy of AI is what I was told recently. Mark Gill: what I've heard. So here I am, I'm an old guy with horse and buggies, right? Kyle Hunt: ⁓ you think you're an old guy. Wait till the end of this podcast when you hear about the old blood test results, folks. Carry on. Mark Gill: There you go. So ⁓ I have a client that needed to chop up responsibility for running their production department for a while. They're going to eventually need to hire somebody to run it, but for the time being, they need to chop it up. So we built a little plan. This person's going to own this section. This person's going to own section. This person's going to own this section. Dropped it all into chat. Vet my plan. Chat's response to my plan. The problem with your plan, Mark, is there's no one neck to choke. when it doesn't work out. Kyle Hunt: Hmm. Well, your chat GPT is kind of violent. Your chat GPT is kind of violent. of all. Yeah. Mark Gill: Who's the responsible party? It is. It was a little aggressive, wasn't it? A little aggressive. So one of the common misconceptions I think that happens is when we say this person is responsible for the estimate. You're responsible that that estimate will have the money in it to produce that project and you're responsible for that accountability metric. Does that mean they have to do all the work? Not necessarily. They're not drawing it. They may not be writing the scope of work to go with it. They might not be quoting the materials to go with it. Shoot, they might not even quote in the trades. But what they are responsible for is that the end product meets the expectations. And so then when you have one person that is responsible, your team can't then go, well, Kyle didn't really quote his stuff, right? So you can't hold me accountable. No, no, no. At the end of the day, one person's accountable. If Kyle's not performing. Kyle Hunt: Mm-hmm. Mark Gill: right, then let's go solve that issue. Whatever we need to do to make sure we're doing what we're responsible for, we hit our accountability. Kyle Hunt: Mm-hmm. And how did you, who's responsible for the estimate, not ask some more follow-up questions, confirm some things, double check some things, let's stop passing the buck. And if you're going to own this couple takeaways already, there's a lot of people listening to this that are very wishy washy on who is responsible for what. And, and getting real clear with that is extremely powerful. The other thing I'm hearing is just this calm demeanor. And that's just your demeanor. You can't help it. And that's just who you are. Mark Gill: Mm-hmm. Kyle Hunt: But this calm demeanor of let's just deal with the facts, not the emotion of it. Let's get down to the bottom of it. Cause if we continue to be clear with our responsibility, accountability, and then when something goes awry, we circle back and we figure out why it went awry. Welcome to a business that's going to continue to be on the rise. Some might say on the mark. I say on the rise or yeah, either way. so, ⁓ there's just takeaways there of some of you just need to pause the podcast. Mark Gill: On the rise. Kyle Hunt: and come back to it and just jot down some thoughts of that of, I've got to have a single point of responsibility. I've got to reimagine this and recast the vision and expectations of my team members. Yeah. Mark Gill: And ourselves, because again, as a business owner, if I'm the one that's beget the system that has mushy responsibilities, then I need to reset my expectations. What are the key things I need for my business to run and who owns them? Kyle Hunt: Yeah. Give me another example that comes to mind in this vein that you see regularly. Mark Gill: One of my clients does what they call a project management level process. And so one person owns the project from the beginning of design to the last punch list. Very interesting person to find that can manage the front end design all the way to the end of the punch list. So what they end up doing is having three people in what's really one role. And some of them are better than others at certain things. And so they pass the responsibilities kind of back around based on who has time, who's overloaded. And so what happens is they go through that system as they've never really written it down. What is this role ultimately responsible for? A, B, C, D, E, F, So that when they pass it, they know who owns the piece. Right. So in this case, ⁓ the selection didn't get documented accurately. Project manager, you're responsible. Well, that was really so-and-so that did it over here. We packaged it at the end. Does that person own that? Well, they do it sometimes for this, but sometimes I do it. And then the other times this person does it. Okay. Who really owns it? And what's really the process of getting it done, getting it put in, getting it handed off and getting it clean? Nobody knows the answer to the question. Right. Three superheroes with capes on, passing work around like they're trading cards. Yeah. Works. They're making money. They're growing company. Good five-star reviews. But you hit a scale ceiling with that until you know. Kyle Hunt: Mm-hmm. Yes, as the company grows, that becomes more more important to have that those line demarcations. Mark Gill: that chaos, one, the ability to continue to hire superheroes is limited. And two, the more work there is, the more that chaos becomes difficult to manage. So we've a clear set of steps. ⁓ Kyle Hunt: Yeah, as a leader, when you approach this conversation with your team members, make sure that you're emphasizing this is not about playing gotcha. This is not about trying to hold you accountable in that it is. Yes, there's some accountability to this, but more anything else, our goal is to reduce the number of fires that are appearing on our job sites. Figurative and maybe literally. ⁓ it is trying to give our clients a great experience from start to finish. It's trying to make this just a more smooth, accurate, ⁓ process and dog on it for us to hold onto every ounce of margin and every dollar of margin that we're selling this at. That's what this is about. This is not about gotcha. And as soon as we put our egos down, as soon as we stop with that, with that pointer finger, trying to point other places and you truly take responsibility, ⁓ man, then we're going to be hard to beat. We're going to get, we're going to get good real fast. real fast. there. I want to move on to the second section of the handoff problem. This handoff, let's even focus kind of between that ⁓ sales and production ⁓ side of things. to us about what you ⁓ see here what you're working on in this area. What does clean handoff even look like? Mark Gill: Sure. Interesting. So typically we think that we get, you know, we sales hands to design, design hands off to sales and design handoff to production once the contract is sold. So I've designed a project, I've estimated it, I've contracted it. And now I'm going to the person that's going to produce it and I'm saying, here's all the information you need to go drive all those mails. Um, crucial moment theoretically inside of a construction company, because obviously the production guy needs to know what am I going to do? What, who are the resources, who are the money, who all the things that I need, the more holes in that package, the more ambiguous information, the more that then that manager of that project has to go sort out while they're trying to be on time, on budget and keep their clients. Kyle Hunt: Pause. Can you just repeat that last few sentences again? Mark Gill: Right on time, on budget, keeping our clients happy while we're trying to fix all the things that weren't actually really clear in the package. Kyle Hunt: Yes. Yes, we are, and I hope I don't throw you off. want you to keep going, but I want to really emphasize that when you hand this off on sales and production, you either hand it off and you're handing off a project that if you were to grade it is like a C minus or you're handing off something that's like a B plus. And what you mentioned there was like, you're either handing something off that has a lot of holes in it that has a lot of things that that project manager is going to have to. circle back and figure out all while trying to do his main job, or you're going to hand him off something that makes his job a lot easier. And I think a lot of you would give yourselves a C, maybe even worse on that handoff. And you mentioned it. This is one of the most important aspects of a overall remodeling business. Keep going, Mark. Mark Gill: What's the interesting thing, Kyle, because we talk about, want people to be responsible and production. want to be on time, on budget and have happy clients. It's big things. There's a metric at the end of that somewhere, right? A client score, so on and so forth. And then we hand a project manager a package that that person has to spend an extra two weeks figuring out the problems or an extra four weeks replacing subs. And so we've said that you're responsible to be on time and we're going to score you on it. And we're handing you something that you didn't have a chance. difficult, right? And then we say, okay, well, we're going to hold you accountable. And then that project manager should say, how can you? And then our accountability and responsibility has broken down. It's interesting. ⁓ So a couple of philosophies on the subject. I think personally that design or sales to production handoff should be nothing more than a checkbox. Kyle Hunt: Mm-hmm. Mark Gill: What I would strongly encourage everyone that's listening to this podcast is to involve your production team in the design and estimating process early. Let them see that project before it gets signed off at Conceptual. Let them see that project before it goes into estimating and let them see that project before it goes to contracting. And so what you're doing is you're taking a different set of perspectives. Designers and salespeople see the world ⁓ Two ways, a little bit differently. Production folks see the world a whole different perspective. How will I build it? Do I have the resources? Will the process work? Will the theory of it work? Can I produce it for that money? Can I have it on time? All those questions, all those items. And so to involve them early in that project so that they have input and sign off, that PM agreed that this is good to go to estimating. That PM agreed that this is good to go to contract. Kyle Hunt: No. Mark Gill: So when that package lands post contract on that handoff desk, that PM's going, yep, yep, that's everything we talked about. I will take responsibility for this package because I believe I can go produce it. And that eliminates that, well, yeah, I'm four weeks over, but you gave me this package. So I had no chance. Now I have an accountability trail all the way through the system. Kyle Hunt: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Yeah, if I'm a remodeler who hears that, agrees with it, but also thinks, ⁓ man, to carve out the time for my project manager to come in and do that, to have maybe one of my leads come in and take a peek at the portions of it that's relevant for them. ⁓ how do I do that, Mark? What is your thought on that? Mark Gill: There's a price to pay. ⁓ I'm sure you're familiar with the J curve of change. Yes, where things get worse before they get better. And if you think about the downwind losses to being under prepared at that handoff, you know, I'm losing a point or two on my margin. I'm losing a week or two or three. I'm losing a half a star a year, whatever those downwind losses. Kyle Hunt: Yes. Mark Gill: and you can take typically a quarter of that spent resource, push it upstream and eliminate the other three quarters of that spent resource. That's a fantastic trade. But it does mean for three to six months, you're running 125 % of whatever that resource is because you got to fix the stuff that came downstream while you're doing the preventative measures. So you go into an inefficiency curve for a period of time before you get to, oh, this is better. Kyle Hunt: Mmm. Yeah. One of my favorite, one of my favorite coaching things is when we're fixing something on estimating, we're fixing pricing often where they recognize we're under priced and, they're convinced of it and they, and they put things in place and they start estimating properly and they're excited about that. And one of my favorite things is when they are ticked off that they are producing projects that they sold at the lower markup and margin. And they're just like, ⁓ we got to get through these projects because of that similar, what you're talking about there. ⁓ Mark Gill: you Grrr. ⁓ Kyle Hunt: I still got to do three or four of these projects that were not handed off properly, that we did not get the proper planning in place for that. And if you get a little err about that and ticked off about that, that's good because that's when you're in that change and you're gonna have the tenacity to make sure that change happens. It is hard to get your PM to be at the capacity to be able to get and fight for time in the office. And it's gonna be messy and they're gonna be over capacity for a while. The question is, Mark Gill: Thank Kyle Hunt: Do you have the wisdom, like Mark was just mentioning, to recognize that one hour spent in pre-construction with your project manager, with your lead, is going to save you four hours downstream? And do you recognize that, ⁓ I would trade that all day long. It's tough to see it. It takes wisdom to see it. It takes wisdom to make sure it happens, but it is a huge unlock to making sure that projects are being handed off more at an A grade versus a C grade. Mark Gill: So in an extreme example, one of the clients that I worked with in the past year had a project come through and get it and be handed off to the production team with a deck. So in addition with a deck and there was money in there for the deck, but there were no finishes for the deck. So was it pressure treated? Is it tracks? Is it composite handrails? Is it cable rails? All those kinds of things. So as we're having this conversation about it's going to be difficult while you need to spend time upstream. sorting out the things on the back end. They were sorting out on the back end, how's the deck built and how are gonna tell the customer that what they want cost twice as much. And the PM is doing this while the PM is trying to operate the project. And so if you figure that person could have been involved for two or three hours upstream and went, wait, how are we building this deck? You save days on the other end. Kyle Hunt: Again, it all makes sense, folks. It all makes sense. There's a Tim McGraw song. I'm not a big Tim McGraw fan, but I don't mind him. But he wrote a song. It's not even that great a song, but it's called How Bad Do Want It? How bad do you want it? ⁓ And that's kind of the message. And a lot of what you're talking about here, there's some learning and there's some systems and there's some... Mark Gill: you Kyle Hunt: Some things we got to figure out, but how bad do you want clear responsibilities on your team? How bad do you want to make sure that the project's being handed off and you're going to grade that an A instead of a C? How bad do you want to start squashing all of the issues that pop up on downstream because upstream you are skipping over steps and not as diligent and as detailed as you want. Remodeling companies that are really clicking, that things are going smoothly, which again, by the way, that leads to better profitability. That leads, that's a benefit to you and your team members. Keep reminding them, the more of this we get implemented, the more profitable we are. And I'm a generous business owner and that's going to be good for all of us and yourselves included. And it's also leading to a project that is smoother and better for the clients. And when I am delivering a project that's smoother and better, more referrals come, more repeat work comes, everything strengthens in the business. How bad do want it? Kind of fix these things, friends. Mark Gill: And it saves a little bit Superman cape time. As the owner, don't have to go into the handoff and decide what's going to happen with this package because the production team's unhappy. I don't have to go in and snooze over a client who's really unhappy because something wasn't well prepared. So it eliminates a little Superman cape time. ⁓ Kyle Hunt: Hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was going to talk a little bit about system SOP, but I feel like we tapped on that. So let me kind of circle back to the thing that you had mentioned of the owner centric, unpack a little bit of, know, Hey, we need, we need to make sure that the owner doesn't have to come on with their cape, that the owner isn't the one, the only one who can do this, that, or the other. What do you see? And maybe it ties in with what we're talking about. What do you see the path? What is the path in order to make that happen? What are some of the common things you see? Mark Gill: Let's think about our examples we're talking about here. So if we have, let's call them three gateways, one to get into detail design, one to get into estimating, one to get to contract. And each one of those has an owner of that moment in time and a set of things that must be done there in order for it to pass from one gateway to the other. And then we have some key downstream indicators of yes, it was successful, yes it wasn't. So now I, an owner, assuming I've hired the right people and they're doing what I ask them to do, I know that I can pick up this sheet of paper and I can say they did these things at this meeting. They checked these items off. It hit this metric. I didn't need to be there. So now I have some expectation of what's going to take place on a regular basis. And at some point in time, you might find that most owners of chaos creators, they like to disturb and disrupt, which is great. You and I have a good friend very close to your office who is a very disruptive person and is one of my favorite people on the planet. No. We'll leave ⁓ the guilty unnamed. Right? So some point in time you find Kyle Hunt: You're gonna name him? Okay. Hahaha Mark Gill: you might be the disruptor to the process and it's better that you're not there because there's a process, a set of expectations and your people follow it. The second and third layers to that as an owner for me personally is I needed some visibility into the success of things. So some reportable metrics, some reportable set of timings so that I could wake up on Monday morning and go. Okay, green, green, yellow. I'm gonna go check on the yellow, but it looks like we're doing pretty good. Because if I'm not in that process watching it, now I'm nervous. Is it getting done right? Is it gonna happen the way I want? Is it gonna meet my expectations? I don't know the answer. And so if there's no visibility into what's taking place, it's very hard for me to trust. Kyle Hunt: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But if I see green there because we're on budget, if I see green there because we're on schedule for other projects and design, that would be an example of that, Okay. Mark Gill: Right. That's correct. ⁓ In a lot of these handoff moments, I like to give the production people pass fail. So we're getting ready to go to contract. We've looked at this contract package. I'm going to not let it go to contract, which gets to my next thing, which means it immediately gets escalated. And so. An escalation plan. Kind of puts the cap on. So if we go through that meeting and it's check, check, clean, clean, everybody's happy and it moves on, owner doesn't need to be involved. If it gets a hard stop, general manager, general manager escalates owner. And a lot of companies will write an escalation plan. What does a position have the right to choose? At one point in time, does it go up to the manager, to the general manager, to the owner? And then I, as the owner, know that if there's something terrible happening, they are coming to tell me. So I don't have to worry. Is it small? Is it big? They're going to come tell me when it's terrible. And then I have visibility and I can have some confidence in the system. Kyle Hunt: Good. Going to the dentist example, I think there's a lot of, ⁓ let's apply it to the remodeling business. There's a lot of remodelers who are checking the person in, putting the stuff on them. ⁓ they're not doing the cleaning anymore. They've got a project manager, let's say, that's doing the cleaning. They are still the one doing the actual dental work. They're still the one doing the x-rays. They also have somebody that's checking them out and take care of the billing. This is good. Some people listening to this are wearing all of the hats and the way to move Mark Gill: Okay. Yes. Kyle Hunt: away from that is to find the first hat and the first person that you're going to hand responsibility to. And then we kind of rinse and repeat that. And all of a sudden you do that over a series of years, sometimes decade, maybe decades. And all of a sudden you get to the point where you're like, wow, I've got somebody that's truly responsible for this, truly responsible for this, truly responsible for this. And then, ⁓ yeah, you have the freedom to just be a chaos guy, you know, just cause. ⁓ but you have the freedom to manage your team, to lead your team. Mark Gill: decades. That's right. Kyle Hunt: There's nothing in a correct me if I'm wrong. There's nothing in a remodeling business using that dental example that couldn't be trained and delegated and given responsibility to for others Right, we can get people in place on all these aspects and you just ⁓ Unveiled a little bit how you set up KPIs and some metrics and some escalation to really move into that business that is truly running without you and it is doable and some of you want to do that and go all the way like that. Some of you would be very happy just to take this and this responsibility off your shoulders. Step back, kind of think about that. Look honestly at your business and identify where some of these bottlenecks are, where you are lacking clear responsibility and just start working on them one at a time. Let's not get overwhelmed by it. Let's start working on it one at a time. Mark Gill: Well, think one of the beauties of working with someone like you and Ramado's on the rise, right, is that you can get a sense of who you are, what you like, what you want. And as owner of a company, you get to pick and choose. I'm going to hire this hat. I'm going to keep this one because I like it. And then you can craft your company to be what you want it to be. So you can be the person you want to be and have the outcomes you want to have, which is fantastic. Yeah. Kyle Hunt: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, there's a lot. And naturally, as you're growing the business, I love swinging the hammer. I love to be on the field. And now I'm just stuck behind this desk. And maybe for some seasons, you need to do that in order to get the business going. There's a lot of my more established clients that go, guess what I'm doing on Thursday, I'm spending the day out in the field. And they're excited. they got to adjust. Sometimes they got to adjust their belt buckle a couple. Mark Gill: Mm-hmm. I'm Kyle Hunt: couple wider because they've been sitting in the office too much. ⁓ but what an opportunity to build culture. What an opportunity for training. What an opportunity to just enjoy your craft. And to your point, we're running our businesses to, to support the life that we want. And yes, especially as you get the business established, let's be real, real clear with what you really enjoy doing and see if we can't lean into that a little bit more at the same time, you're going to, you're going to grow a business. You're going to do some things that maybe aren't your favorite tasks. That's part of the. Mark Gill: It happened. It happened. for sure. Kyle Hunt: Nature of the Beast 2, but we can keep working on that. ⁓ Mark, you do some, like you said at the start, a little bit more hands-on, in-person, deep dive into systems and planning and executing of this stuff. How can people find out more about you if they want to look you up? Mark Gill: ⁓ On themarketvisory.com. It's my website. I'm available on LinkedIn as well. You can Google search there. I'm also in the marketplace on JobTread software. So there's a couple places you can go and get more information. Kyle Hunt: There we go, wonderful. ⁓ Should we tell the people about the blood work? Mark Gill: I don't know. have this. So I have this feeling that like your teeth are going to outlive you by a lot, but I could be wrong. Kyle Hunt: Well, my teeth, yeah, my teeth. But what about everything else? And I bring it up because you brought up the dentist and then I'm like, ⁓ I went to the dentist and da da da da da happened. Get the blood work. Mark Gill: Hahaha! Mm-hmm. So I think you're healthy as a horse. You're going to live to be 110. That's what I think. Kyle Hunt: I mean, that's what was in my head before I got this email yesterday. Your blood counts look totally normal, Kyle. Your metabolic panel looks normal. Your urine test is also normal. Okay, cool. Your cholesterol testing did show an elevated total cholesterol. Your LDL cholesterol, bad cholesterol is up compared to the last time we checked it, which by the way was three years ago. Interesting. Mr. You're going to... Mark Gill: Thank Thank you Kyle Hunt: do some diet changing and exercising, maybe lean into a little Mediterranean diet, or we can look into medication. We can talk to the doctor, da da da. And I thought to myself as a 43 year old, I ain't getting on medication. This is the wake up call I needed. I'm gonna lock in and get after it. I jumped up from my desk. I went straight to the grocery store, grabbed some apples, grabbed some bananas, just started eating them like crazy. And I have been locked in for the last 30 hours. Mark Gill: Nice. Kyle Hunt: So the blood work came back, but it did kind of, I'm like, hmm, hmm, interesting. So I shared that also. Mark Gill: Hmm. So what are, are, so there's an opportunity here to build some KPIs because you're going to have another blood test in a year. So what are the key performance six months? So what are the key performance indicators between now and the next six months? Dietarily. Hey, there we go. There you are. Kyle Hunt: Yes. That's six months. That's right. AI has already been downloaded. I had this wrap thing for lunch and whatnot. But I share that for a couple of reasons. One, because you gave me a roundabout entry into it. But also because I don't know who's listening to this, but I do know this. Some of y'all haven't been to the doctor in six years. Some of y'all are 52 years old and overweight. Some of you are 62 and have a family history of this or that. Mark Gill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kyle Hunt: And we are out here in a stressful environment, stressful businesses, working our butts off, and we need to make sure that we're taking care of ourselves. You know that, everybody listening to that knows that, but I just, use it because I was inspired to to get a physical, got the blood work, and it's a little bit of an eye opener. Now in this case, I should be able to lock in, to put the trend in a different direction, but my blood work could have come back and said, hey dude, you've got this. Make sure that you're taking care of your health. Make sure that you're carving out time for exercise. Frankly, you're a better business owner when you go for long walks from time to time, when you get in the gym and workout for 30 minutes here or there. So let that be a random reminder. And also Mark was tying it together. ⁓ systematize this, KPI this, get a little, and also, know, Mark, you know who's responsible for this higher cholesterol? It's important, own responsibility. Mark Gill: Kyle. Kyle. Kyle Hunt: Bullcrap, my dad, my dad's got high cholesterol. This is all hereditary. It's a bunch of crap. ⁓ wait a minute. I eat a lot of greasy food and I like cookies. So maybe, just maybe it's me. But Pops did say, did send it to Pops. He goes, ⁓ welcome to the club. I'm like, thanks, dude. Thanks, buddy. So, all right, all that said, ⁓ if you were to leave the people with one final thought related to this main topic that we covered today, could be something you already said and you want to emphasize it could be something different. How would you end this, Mark? Mark Gill: ⁓ You know now friend? You own it now, my friend. Clarity is kind. If you're hiring the right people, which I assume you are, you're growing them, you're cycling them out if they can't perform, giving them clear expectations, clear responsibilities, clear outcomes, they'll be happy, you'll be happy, machine will run. Kyle Hunt: Bam, end of podcast. See y'all soon. Thanks Mark.