Latest / Vanguards of Healthcare by Bloomberg Intelligence / SR One Highlights Biotech's Latest Comeback Cycle

Transcript

SR One Highlights Biotech's Latest Comeback Cycle · Vanguards of Healthcare by Bloomberg Intelligence

0:23
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Bloomberg Intelligences Vanguards of Healthcare podcast,
0:27
Speaker 1: where we speak with the leaders in the forefront at
0:30
Speaker 1: the forefront of change in the healthcare industry. My name
0:33
Speaker 1: is Sam Fazelli and I'm a healthcare analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence,
0:37
Speaker 1: which is the in house research arm of Bloomberg. I'm
0:40
Speaker 1: thrilled to welcome Simeon George, Founder and managing partner, Chief Executive.
0:47
Speaker 1: I don't know what the best way to describe your
0:51
Speaker 1: involvement with USR one today is to the podcast. One
0:56
Speaker 1: of the key things that we love doing here is
0:59
Speaker 1: talking to foks who are literally at the cold face
1:03
Speaker 1: of the of the biotech and drug industry, and there's
1:07
Speaker 1: no one better than venture capital firms, especially ones with
1:11
Speaker 1: meaningful history, where SR one is one of those for
1:15
Speaker 1: us to be getting a good feel with regards to
1:17
Speaker 1: what's happening at that at that front of the of
1:20
Speaker 1: the of the sector. Now, Simeon, one of the other
1:23
Speaker 1: things that I really love about the conversation, which I'm
1:26
Speaker 1: looking forward to having with you, is that you are
1:28
Speaker 1: one of the I think the only vcs that I've
1:31
Speaker 1: spoken to which has been previously a corporate VC and
1:37
Speaker 1: then has become independent and I don't even know if
1:40
Speaker 1: that phrase is also correct, independent but no longer a
1:44
Speaker 1: corporate VC. So I'm pretty sure we can touch on that.
1:46
Speaker 1: So I think maybe for our listeners the best way
1:49
Speaker 1: to start here is to get background on yourself. How
1:52
Speaker 1: was it that you ended up where you ended up?
1:54
Speaker 1: Is this where you thought you'd always end up? And
1:57
Speaker 1: and the history of SR one on the basis of
1:59
Speaker 1: what we just thought.
2:00
Speaker 2: Okay, that sounds good, Sam, hopefully you can hear me.
2:02
Speaker 2: Thank you for giving me this opportunity. Thank you to
2:06
Speaker 2: your audience hopefully for listening. And I hope this is
2:09
Speaker 2: a useful conversation. So yeah, so thrilled to be here.
2:11
Speaker 2: So I'm Simi and George. I'm the CEO and founder
2:14
Speaker 2: of SR one. I think of myself as a founder
2:16
Speaker 2: and we'll get into what that means in a second.
2:19
Speaker 2: I'm a physician by training. I'm originally from the UK.
2:23
Speaker 2: I've recently come back to the UK after having lived
2:26
Speaker 2: in the US for the last close to thirty years.
2:29
Speaker 2: As we can talk about that also in terms of
2:31
Speaker 2: sort of the transatlantic setup of our business. But really
2:35
Speaker 2: i'd say the guiding Light is like I think as
2:37
Speaker 2: a founder and as a physician, and I think about, ultimately,
2:39
Speaker 2: how do you build products, in our case, medicines that
2:43
Speaker 2: can transform the lives of hopefully millions of patients and
2:47
Speaker 2: have an impact on society. And if we can do that, well,
2:50
Speaker 2: we should and can and have proven that we can
2:52
Speaker 2: generate outsize returns. Like I think, that's really the secret
2:56
Speaker 2: behind the work that we do and that's why it's
2:57
Speaker 2: so rewarding. Across many mentioned in terms of the history
3:01
Speaker 2: of s Rowan, So you're right is Stra one was
3:04
Speaker 2: established in the mid nineteen eighties, so it is truly
3:07
Speaker 2: one of the oldest corporate venture units across any industry.
3:11
Speaker 2: Was set up at the time when Big Pharma was
3:14
Speaker 2: you know, i'd say, starting to recognize the emergence of
3:17
Speaker 2: biotech as a as an emerging industry and wanted in
3:21
Speaker 2: this case, Smithklin in France, the precursor to GSK, wanted
3:24
Speaker 2: to have some exposure to this new industry and so
3:28
Speaker 2: they started investing off of the balance sheet in nineteen
3:30
Speaker 2: eighty five and the fund had an incredible thirty five
3:34
Speaker 2: year run where across different mergers, acquisitions, leadership changes, the
3:40
Speaker 2: fund continued to invest off of the balance sheet, and
3:43
Speaker 2: it was successful because it continued to return capital. So
3:46
Speaker 2: it truly was a profit center for the parent company,
3:50
Speaker 2: and it provided an interesting lens, a strategic lift, if
3:53
Speaker 2: you will, into what was happening in the biotech ecosystem.
3:57
Speaker 2: And I joined in two thousand and eight. So I
4:01
Speaker 2: joined when it was very much you know, I had
4:03
Speaker 2: been established as a as a leading corporate venture unit.
4:07
Speaker 2: I spent twelve years working in that setup, essentially with
4:10
Speaker 2: GSK as our sole investor, and then in twenty twenty
4:15
Speaker 2: we went through the process of spinning out SRWAN, creating
4:18
Speaker 2: the independent business. And you know, we're six years into
4:22
Speaker 2: this journey. We're super excited about the directory of our
4:26
Speaker 2: business and more importantly, what's happening within the biotech ecosystem.
4:29
Speaker 2: And sure we'll get into that. And GSK has been
4:32
Speaker 2: an incredible advocate, champion, sponsor through all of the different phases,
4:37
Speaker 2: including where we are today. I count them as one
4:40
Speaker 2: of my closest allies an investor in our funds. But
4:44
Speaker 2: now the beauty is that we are able to because
4:46
Speaker 2: of the independence, we're able to obviously interact across all
4:50
Speaker 2: of the different large and midcapped companies in our ecosystem.
4:53
Speaker 2: And of course we're investing in the early stages and
4:56
Speaker 2: we'll get into what that means. So right, maybe the
4:58
Speaker 2: last point to find point here would be six years
5:01
Speaker 2: into the journey. Now, we've raised over two billion dollars
5:06
Speaker 2: across two venture funds and a growth fund. We're now
5:09
Speaker 2: investing out of our third venture fund, and we've had,
5:12
Speaker 2: you know, incredible success within even a short amount of
5:15
Speaker 2: time with some of the companies that we have helped
5:17
Speaker 2: to build or invest in, and again, more importantly, products
5:21
Speaker 2: that are coming to market now that are going to
5:23
Speaker 2: have hopefully significant impact. And maybe the one that I'm
5:27
Speaker 2: the most proud of is our Selex, which is a
5:29
Speaker 2: company that we built from scratch about ten years ago.
5:32
Speaker 2: Sell Therapy company. It's medicine and Neto Sell is a
5:36
Speaker 2: cartie therapy for multiple mieloma and it is now with
5:39
Speaker 2: the FDA has a PADUFA date in December. We believe
5:42
Speaker 2: this is a best in class treatment for multiple myeloma.
5:46
Speaker 2: If God forbid you or any of our loved ones
5:49
Speaker 2: had this disease, you would want them treated with this medicine.
5:52
Speaker 2: And Gillyad recently acquired the company for eight billion. And
5:56
Speaker 2: so to go from starting a company from a blank
5:58
Speaker 2: sheet of paper to seeing this journey now the patient
6:01
Speaker 2: impact and then the financial returns, I'd say that is
6:03
Speaker 2: the journey of Esrawan And so yeah, maybe I'll end
6:06
Speaker 2: with that and then turn it over to you.
6:08
Speaker 1: Interesting I'm very familiar with Anita Sell and also the
6:14
Speaker 1: story of our Selex And one of the interesting things,
6:18
Speaker 1: of course is that GSK has ambitions in multiple Maloma,
6:22
Speaker 1: which you know, this could have been a possible could
6:25
Speaker 1: have been a possible home for our selx two, although
6:27
Speaker 1: of course they had to deal with.
6:28
Speaker 2: Gilead before before this, So.
6:30
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll come back to that. But let's just very
6:33
Speaker 1: quickly touch on the subject of a corporate VC versus
6:36
Speaker 1: a non corporate VC. I don't want to call it independent,
6:39
Speaker 1: because I'm pretty sure that there's quite a lot of
6:40
Speaker 1: independence within corporate vcs. What what is the major difference
6:45
Speaker 1: between these two and what would have what would you
6:48
Speaker 1: not have been able to do if you were still
6:50
Speaker 1: part of a corporate VC, not specifically GSK, but but
6:53
Speaker 1: if you want to just talk about the.
6:54
Speaker 2: Subject as a whole, Yeah, I mean, it's I mean,
6:57
Speaker 2: it's a great question, and you know, it isn't one
7:00
Speaker 2: shape fits all or one size fits all across even
7:03
Speaker 2: within healthcare or pharma. How these corporate vcs have been
7:07
Speaker 2: set up and how they're organized, and you know, what
7:09
Speaker 2: their metrics are that they're held accountable for. So in
7:13
Speaker 2: the case of THAT'ST one, what I can speak obviously
7:15
Speaker 2: most clearly too, is that it really was an arms
7:18
Speaker 2: length sort of independent business even while we were part
7:21
Speaker 2: of GSK, and so that allowed me and my team
7:24
Speaker 2: to essentially source our own deals, do the diligence on
7:28
Speaker 2: those deals, do a large part of the decision making
7:31
Speaker 2: in house, and then really do a final check with
7:35
Speaker 2: the senior stakeholder within the parent organization, usually the head
7:39
Speaker 2: of R and D, the chief executive officer. And it was,
7:41
Speaker 2: you know, really i'd say, a very seamless process with
7:44
Speaker 2: those stakeholders, and they generally approved everything that we wanted
7:48
Speaker 2: to invest in. You know. In terms of the way
7:52
Speaker 2: we were measured, it really was as our ability to
7:55
Speaker 2: return capital based on the capital that we've been we deployed.
7:59
Speaker 2: It was never expressly set up as a strategic unit
8:02
Speaker 2: that's measured based on BD deals, M and A transactions
8:05
Speaker 2: that emanated from our business. And actually, Sam, if you
8:09
Speaker 2: look at the history of SRA one and I think
8:11
Speaker 2: I have these numbers roughly right, So nineteen eighty five,
8:14
Speaker 2: set up twenty twenty eight to spin out, So thirty
8:17
Speaker 2: five year history, I think over two hundred investments made
8:21
Speaker 2: plus minus, and I think GSK acquired one company during
8:24
Speaker 2: that period from SRA one's investment. So you know, you
8:28
Speaker 2: frankly had a better chance of being acquired if s
8:30
Speaker 2: RA one didn't invest in you by GSK, right, So
8:34
Speaker 2: the name gives it away. It was set up as
8:36
Speaker 2: GSK Ventures, the you know again evergreen fund, single LP,
8:40
Speaker 2: but really focused on financial return and as I said earlier,
8:43
Speaker 2: strategic lift, meaning we you know, we interacted with the
8:47
Speaker 2: senior stakeholders B, D, R and D on the various deals.
8:50
Speaker 2: And even though only one company was acquired, you can
8:54
Speaker 2: imagine a number of conversations were happening across the portfolio
8:57
Speaker 2: and ultimately GSK made the decisions that made sense for them.
9:01
Speaker 2: So that's SR one, I would say, across the spectrum,
9:04
Speaker 2: and you probably have interacted some of these organizations, you know,
9:07
Speaker 2: J and J being an example. I TJJDC is one
9:10
Speaker 2: of the oldest corporate venture units that is very much
9:13
Speaker 2: tied to specific outputs around partnership, around capital that is
9:17
Speaker 2: actually coming out of specific units that could frankly go
9:21
Speaker 2: into other projects that you know they're choosing not to
9:24
Speaker 2: fund and to fund through the venture unit. And so
9:26
Speaker 2: that is a much more i would say, aligned way
9:29
Speaker 2: of setting up the business that reflects what the business
9:32
Speaker 2: needs are of the r and the organization in particular.
9:35
Speaker 2: So it sort of depends on the organization. What it
9:38
Speaker 2: meant for me, frankly was when we spun out sam Like,
9:41
Speaker 2: it didn't like. What I was doing day to day
9:43
Speaker 2: didn't change. I was still sourcing the deals, doing the diligence,
9:46
Speaker 2: making the decisions. I didn't have to go to GSA,
9:49
Speaker 2: of course after we spun out for any final sign off.
9:52
Speaker 2: And now, frankly, I have to go out and raise
9:54
Speaker 2: capital from a number of different stakeholders, right, whether it's
9:58
Speaker 2: other strategics. So we do have other pharma companies that
10:00
Speaker 2: have invested in our funds or in all sorts of
10:04
Speaker 2: different allocators, family offices, endowments, fund of funds, et cetera.
10:08
Speaker 2: That was something that I didn't have to do when
10:09
Speaker 2: I was part of GSK. And then lastly, I would
10:12
Speaker 2: say probably we are broadening the aperture around where we invest.
10:16
Speaker 2: So historically Extra one is known as a terrific early
10:19
Speaker 2: stage investor see Company Creation Series A. In the last
10:23
Speaker 2: few years we have been leaning into later stage, both
10:26
Speaker 2: private and public investing because we have now freeer remit
10:30
Speaker 2: to do, you know, in terms of where we deploy,
10:32
Speaker 2: and also because frankly, the market has changed and evolved
10:35
Speaker 2: to a point where we think from a risk reward standpoint,
10:38
Speaker 2: you can go after really compelling companies and products that
10:41
Speaker 2: are further along in their trajectory than maybe you could
10:43
Speaker 2: have done a few years back.
10:45
Speaker 3: Yeah.
10:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting on that particular point that think you
10:48
Speaker 1: said three venture funds and one public fund.
10:53
Speaker 2: Tell us what the difference?
10:54
Speaker 1: Way, Yeah, okay, what does that mean that irrespective of
10:58
Speaker 1: explain to me what that means in terms of opportunities.
11:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, an opportunity is fine. I mean, the best way
11:03
Speaker 2: to think about it, tim is like that is designed
11:06
Speaker 2: to invest in companies that actually have clinical data in hand,
11:10
Speaker 2: So companies that have actually shown that the drug is
11:12
Speaker 2: actually doing something in patients, there's a treatment effect, public
11:15
Speaker 2: or private development public private one yeah, either one yeah.
11:20
Speaker 2: And we set it up obviously at a time when
11:21
Speaker 2: the markets were wobbly with respect to where the XBI was,
11:25
Speaker 2: where the public markets were for biotech, and we felt
11:28
Speaker 2: there was an opportunity within that period to find denovo
11:32
Speaker 2: later stage investments, but also frankly, to double down on
11:36
Speaker 2: our highest conviction investments from our existing portfolio, where we
11:40
Speaker 2: believed again that there was more value to be had,
11:42
Speaker 2: but it was at a different stage of development and
11:45
Speaker 2: you know, closer to a growth type of investment.
11:48
Speaker 1: Interesting. So that actually brings me up to our next question.
11:51
Speaker 1: So anyone listening to this might think we've arranged all
11:54
Speaker 1: these questions previously. To a degree we have, so looking
11:58
Speaker 1: at the secta effact, there are some folks around in
12:01
Speaker 1: the investing world who are beginning to worry, which is
12:04
Speaker 1: really odd, having spent was it three or four years
12:08
Speaker 1: of wondering whether we'll ever have a sector two that
12:12
Speaker 1: will pick up as opposed to go down, and now
12:16
Speaker 1: wondering whether it's been too fast. So I think we've
12:20
Speaker 1: had what nine ten months of XBI as the barometer.
12:24
Speaker 1: Maybe not the best barometer, but it's the one we
12:26
Speaker 1: have in terms of doing very well, and today we're
12:29
Speaker 1: at about one hundred and fifty five on that and
12:32
Speaker 1: I think we touched shy of seventy not much more
12:36
Speaker 1: than a nine to ten months ago. I may have
12:39
Speaker 1: the times a little bit off, but in that space,
12:42
Speaker 1: in that time more than twofold increase. So if you
12:46
Speaker 1: think about this, we've got a situation here where the
12:49
Speaker 1: sector is doing amazingly. So that brings us to two questions.
12:53
Speaker 1: One is do you feel and I don't think anyone
12:57
Speaker 1: wants to ever say these words this quickly for the
12:59
Speaker 1: bi sect that is getting a bit froughy And how
13:03
Speaker 1: what does that mean for the Opportunities Fund? Because I'm
13:06
Speaker 1: assuming the idea was here's clinical data, we believe in this,
13:09
Speaker 1: the market is not valuing it correctly. We're going to
13:12
Speaker 1: put some money to work here. So if you want
13:15
Speaker 1: to consider those two.
13:16
Speaker 2: Topics, please yeah. I mean it's a good question. Listen.
13:18
Speaker 2: I think we need to be objective enough to ask
13:21
Speaker 2: these questions as there are these market gyrations. In particular.
13:24
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean for us, Sam, what I would
13:26
Speaker 2: say is we view the market is currently constructive and
13:29
Speaker 2: we are candidly we believe This is still a stock
13:32
Speaker 2: pickers market, if you want to use that term, like
13:34
Speaker 2: there is pockets of opportunity where risk rewards still makes
13:38
Speaker 2: sense from our standpoint, across the ecosystem right now, from
13:41
Speaker 2: starting companies all the way through late stage private and public.
13:45
Speaker 2: But it is constructive now. Meaning again, if you look
13:47
Speaker 2: at as an example, IPOs, right there's been I think
13:50
Speaker 2: this year mid single I think around thirteen to fifteen
13:56
Speaker 2: IPOs if I'm not mistaken, those iicos have all generally
13:59
Speaker 2: performed quite well. I think most of them are above issuance.
14:02
Speaker 2: We've had three IPOs this year, including Viadermix, which has
14:05
Speaker 2: really been a spectacular success. This is the developing a
14:10
Speaker 2: drug for hair loss. We formulated monoxidil as a pill.
14:14
Speaker 2: You know, phase three data looks good. The market is
14:17
Speaker 2: rewarding good data. That's the thing to note, and so
14:19
Speaker 2: we've seen an appreciation in the share price. But I
14:22
Speaker 2: would say it's not a market that has lost sort
14:25
Speaker 2: of the discerning ability right now. So if you look
14:27
Speaker 2: at those companies across the board, those ten or fifteen companies,
14:30
Speaker 2: they all generally have a product with a data set
14:33
Speaker 2: that has a clear path from a development regulatory standpoint
14:37
Speaker 2: to bringing the product towards commercialization, and they're generally all
14:40
Speaker 2: going after a large markets like hair loss again massive,
14:43
Speaker 2: massive market, both in the US and globally. Right, So
14:46
Speaker 2: I don't think we're at a point where we're seeing
14:49
Speaker 2: science projects that are getting funded into the public markets,
14:52
Speaker 2: whereas a few years ago you would say that was
14:54
Speaker 2: probably happening. So that's the first thing I think the
14:56
Speaker 2: market is discerning. I'd say the second piece is in
14:59
Speaker 2: our eco system, it's different than tech or many other
15:02
Speaker 2: industries in the sense that we have structurally a built
15:06
Speaker 2: in buyer. These are large cap pharma companies as well
15:09
Speaker 2: as now MidCap companies, which that's something we can touch
15:12
Speaker 2: on in a second. And these buyers have to continue
15:15
Speaker 2: to reinvent themselves every few years based on the way
15:18
Speaker 2: the patent cliffs work. Right, So there's you know, I
15:21
Speaker 2: think you know right now, there's about two hundred billion
15:24
Speaker 2: of IP that's going to come off patent over the
15:27
Speaker 2: next five to six years. And these large companies have
15:30
Speaker 2: pretty ambitious growth targets, as you know, north of five
15:32
Speaker 2: percent per year, and so the math is pretty simple.
15:35
Speaker 2: They have to use their balance sheet, their ability to
15:38
Speaker 2: take on debt, their market cap, and that if you
15:41
Speaker 2: add those numbers together, you get numbers that are approaching
15:44
Speaker 2: two trillion across the sector to be able to go
15:47
Speaker 2: out and identify assets private and public that can fill
15:51
Speaker 2: their pipelines. Right, So this is not a cyclical issue.
15:54
Speaker 2: This is a structural issue for these buyers, like their
15:57
Speaker 2: R and D efforts are not as productive as they
16:00
Speaker 2: would like. Biotech as a whole is an ecosystem that
16:04
Speaker 2: has the next crop of medicines that are advancing, so
16:07
Speaker 2: they have to keep buying, right. So, I do think
16:09
Speaker 2: the cycle is constructive. It's productive, and you know, companies
16:13
Speaker 2: that can develop really compelling data sets are finding value
16:17
Speaker 2: in the public markets through pharma, M and A or
16:20
Speaker 2: even on the private side are getting rewarded with partnerships
16:24
Speaker 2: as well as private financings that are coming together.
16:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean on the M and A front, I
16:29
Speaker 1: think we're doing even better than the IPO stats in
16:32
Speaker 1: terms of the deal volume and deal value. What's of
16:35
Speaker 1: course interesting also Simeon, and I wonder what you were
16:38
Speaker 1: thinking is it doesn't feel like it's all just driven
16:41
Speaker 1: by Oh gosh, in five years time, we're going to
16:45
Speaker 1: have this patent cliff. You know, let's say merk although
16:48
Speaker 1: we are internal analysis suggests youtruder can last longer than
16:52
Speaker 1: what the market assumes at the minute in terms of
16:54
Speaker 1: its patents. But what's going on is you get av
16:58
Speaker 1: Vy buying Apergy. We've got Lily on a probably the
17:02
Speaker 1: most acquisitive company at least in terms of numbers of
17:04
Speaker 1: deals in the past six to nine months and licensing deals,
17:08
Speaker 1: and neither of them have a very imminent or you know,
17:13
Speaker 1: I mean re Voke and sky Rizzy in the hands
17:16
Speaker 1: of ABVI have got quite a few years to go yet.
17:18
Speaker 1: The franchise that Lily has built, I mean, they've got
17:22
Speaker 1: still the next generation of OBCD drugs comp. What I
17:25
Speaker 1: feel is going on here is that they're thinking, we're
17:28
Speaker 1: not going to wait till that point. We're going to
17:30
Speaker 1: try and build this platform such that we can remain
17:34
Speaker 1: the large farmer company that we are. And Lily, in fact,
17:37
Speaker 1: tying into your hair loss just recently did a deal
17:40
Speaker 1: for it with a hair loss company, which I think
17:42
Speaker 1: is quite interesting. I was hearing a conversation with our
17:46
Speaker 1: friends at Stats about how Lily was trying to not
17:50
Speaker 1: be viewed as a lifestyle company in terms of obesit etc.
17:54
Speaker 1: And more of a disease. And now, of course I
17:57
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, hair is an organ For those
18:00
Speaker 1: who cannot see, they can go to the website and
18:02
Speaker 1: look at a picture of me. That particular organ has
18:05
Speaker 1: failed in my case, and you know, why couldn't that
18:09
Speaker 1: be treated as a disease. But anyway, let's let's leave that.
18:11
Speaker 1: But that MNA angle is seems to go beyond patent
18:15
Speaker 1: expieries and I think maybe this is the this is
18:19
Speaker 1: the once bitten. I don't want to say they're twice shy,
18:22
Speaker 1: but they certainly are in a position, particularly both of
18:25
Speaker 1: those companies with very very healthy cash flows.
18:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's a fair it's a fair assessment.
18:31
Speaker 2: And again each company is probably solving for slightly different things.
18:35
Speaker 2: You know. In the case of ab VI, again I'm
18:37
Speaker 2: not involved in appleg obviously great outcome for the company
18:41
Speaker 2: and shareholders. But you can see this move by ABVI
18:44
Speaker 2: as something is frankly wanting to get ahead of necessarily
18:47
Speaker 2: the competition buying as the data is obviously continuing to
18:51
Speaker 2: declare itself and wanting to protect their franchise, right like,
18:54
Speaker 2: I think that for them is incredibly important, right, having
18:57
Speaker 2: a product that potentially can work across indications. I presume
19:01
Speaker 2: they have looked at sort of half life extension and
19:03
Speaker 2: other strategies in house and probably haven't seen, you know,
19:06
Speaker 2: don't have the conviction around what they're doing in house
19:08
Speaker 2: relative to what appage is shown. So I think that's
19:11
Speaker 2: a very specific situation that allowed that transaction to happen.
19:15
Speaker 2: And I do think transactions are now from what I've
19:18
Speaker 2: seen of the data again, over one hundred billion of
19:20
Speaker 2: M and A this year so far. Their barbelle in
19:23
Speaker 2: terms of where they're happening, so aput, she's an example
19:25
Speaker 2: of later stage D risk obviously known biology clearly applying
19:29
Speaker 2: a very specific consideration around compliance, ease of use, et cetera.
19:34
Speaker 2: But then you have earlier stage deals that are happening
19:36
Speaker 2: also quite frequently now and to your point, like companies
19:39
Speaker 2: like Lily are being you could say opportunistic, like they're
19:42
Speaker 2: getting in before necessarily a drug has declared itself or
19:46
Speaker 2: into categories that are adjacent to really important areas, whether
19:50
Speaker 2: it's obesit in the case of Lily specifically, right, like
19:52
Speaker 2: hair loss is a natural extension, you could say because
19:55
Speaker 2: you think about lifestyle medicine, if we can use that term.
19:58
Speaker 2: So I think each company maybe solving for slightly different things.
20:02
Speaker 2: But again like that is creating a really healthy environment
20:05
Speaker 2: for startups. And the thing I'm also I guess most
20:08
Speaker 2: surprised by that has happened over the last few years.
20:10
Speaker 2: To surprise to the upside is you're seeing mid cap
20:13
Speaker 2: companies also now or smaller companies becoming quite acquisitive or creative.
20:18
Speaker 2: And so yesterday we announced the acquisition of Karto's, one
20:21
Speaker 2: of our portfolio companies, from the Opportunities Fund by Ibsen. Right,
20:25
Speaker 2: so maybe three five years ago, I'm not sure we
20:27
Speaker 2: would have thought about Ibsen is potentially a logical acquirer
20:30
Speaker 2: of one of our companies. But listen, you know, strategically
20:33
Speaker 2: made sense for them an important medicine and you know
20:36
Speaker 2: they wanted to get quite ahead of where large cap
20:38
Speaker 2: might be if they were looking at the asset three six,
20:40
Speaker 2: twelve months down the line.
20:42
Speaker 1: Servier Kias, you know, when I look at the data,
20:46
Speaker 1: I was a little bit surprised that some of these
20:47
Speaker 1: Europeans that have stepped up into gen Mab, you know,
20:50
Speaker 1: which is now graduated to be one of those companies now.
20:53
Speaker 1: So one of the other things that's been happening while
20:57
Speaker 1: the market's been correcting itself. Let's put it that way,
21:00
Speaker 1: because I think we all did view the valuations that
21:04
Speaker 1: biotechs were trading at this time last year as way
21:08
Speaker 1: too low, and I think whether it's frothy or not.
21:11
Speaker 1: But one of the other things that's been coincided with
21:13
Speaker 1: this is to go, we've been through a period a
21:15
Speaker 1: very complicated and uncertain regulatory environment, particularly in the US
21:21
Speaker 1: and then drug pricing, et cetera. And that regulatory environment
21:24
Speaker 1: has suddenly changed by the changing of two people. Now
21:29
Speaker 1: I'm going to say this, they don't have to necessarily agree,
21:31
Speaker 1: but doctor Martin McCarry, who was the FDA commissioner, and
21:37
Speaker 1: Vine Prasad where the two folks who particularly changed in
21:42
Speaker 1: the recent past. Now and then it seems like the
21:45
Speaker 1: FDA has gone back to being what it was before.
21:49
Speaker 1: Here's a bit of data that a company has filed.
21:52
Speaker 1: If that file is accepted by US in terms of
21:55
Speaker 1: the rules and rigs of file acceptance, we led the
21:58
Speaker 1: assessment of the clinical data to be done by advisory
22:01
Speaker 1: Committees or FDL seasoned lifetimers. If you want to call
22:06
Speaker 1: them that, and that has come back. We've seen regenics, bio,
22:10
Speaker 1: we've seen the unicure situation to a degree reverse. But
22:13
Speaker 1: of course those drugs still need to go through the
22:16
Speaker 1: regulatory process, but the door wasn't shut on them by
22:21
Speaker 1: the commissioner or by somebody. So how much do you
22:23
Speaker 1: think that has had to do with first the confidence
22:26
Speaker 1: coming back into the market, but also has that had
22:29
Speaker 1: an impact on your view of the market or did
22:33
Speaker 1: you always think that this thing, this was going to
22:34
Speaker 1: be a passing issue.
22:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, listen, I guess I start with like,
22:38
Speaker 2: I assume positive intent, Like I assume the FDA and
22:41
Speaker 2: EMEA and other regulators they're really trying to do whatever
22:45
Speaker 2: they can to make sure that medicines that have been
22:47
Speaker 2: rigorously tested, that you know, really focus on an unmet
22:50
Speaker 2: need are going to get to patients. Like they do
22:53
Speaker 2: not want to limit access of transformative medicines, right, So
22:56
Speaker 2: I would say the onus is on us. So when
22:58
Speaker 2: you say, like what are we doing or not doing,
23:00
Speaker 2: we're really thinking about what is an unequivocal data set
23:03
Speaker 2: that we can move forward with and start engaging regulators,
23:07
Speaker 2: ideally sooner rather than later, and there's different ways of
23:10
Speaker 2: doing that based on breakthrough, fast rack, et cetera. That
23:13
Speaker 2: can allow us to get clarity on what is the development,
23:16
Speaker 2: development path and regulatory path to get the molecule through
23:21
Speaker 2: these these last steps, right, And so the more we
23:23
Speaker 2: can sort of agree and align on what the goalposts
23:26
Speaker 2: are and essentially have that sort of as the certainty
23:29
Speaker 2: of what the process is, the less likelihood there is
23:32
Speaker 2: for again surprises and challenges in the way that we
23:36
Speaker 2: might continue to fund in particular through these milestones. And so,
23:39
Speaker 2: you know, again without commenting specifically on individuals, I think
23:42
Speaker 2: the more we can have sort of uniformity of the
23:44
Speaker 2: way this organization in particular can treat the various companies
23:48
Speaker 2: that are coming with the data sets. And to your point,
23:51
Speaker 2: we've seen some recent you know, reversals or we've seen
23:54
Speaker 2: you know, i'd say, more reasons to be optimistic that
23:57
Speaker 2: there is a path forward that is both realists and
24:00
Speaker 2: alignce with what we thought made sense in terms of
24:03
Speaker 2: advancement of the molecule. So that I'd say that's the
24:06
Speaker 2: first piece. I mean the second piece, and I know
24:07
Speaker 2: we're going to touch on this is we're also living
24:10
Speaker 2: in now a truly transnational way of thinking about development
24:14
Speaker 2: of assets, right, and so I have to imagine if
24:16
Speaker 2: you're sitting in DC and you're looking at what's happening
24:18
Speaker 2: in China, you want to remain competitive, you want this
24:21
Speaker 2: still to be the place for innovation is ultimately you
24:24
Speaker 2: capture value and patients and society benefit. So there's presumably
24:29
Speaker 2: some level of Okay, we need to make sure that
24:31
Speaker 2: the process that we have is as clear, but also
24:35
Speaker 2: as I would say, you know, expedited with again the
24:38
Speaker 2: level of rigor that's required to advance these medicines right
24:42
Speaker 2: to keep up with what's happening in other regions.
24:45
Speaker 1: Right now. That's very interesting that you mentioned that, because
24:48
Speaker 1: as an active situation or conversation right now with regards
24:51
Speaker 1: to China, et cetera. So we'll come back to that,
24:53
Speaker 1: but I did want to just to close up on
24:55
Speaker 1: the FDA thing. We have this FDA advisory committee coming
25:00
Speaker 1: up for peptides, which to me seems like a I
25:05
Speaker 1: don't know, complete waste of time because there's not real
25:07
Speaker 1: data for them to assess. And that's what the advisory
25:09
Speaker 1: committee is. Paperwork is suggesting. You know, the documents that
25:12
Speaker 1: are published already, and then you look at the people
25:16
Speaker 1: on the advisor commntinue, you think, are these people actually
25:19
Speaker 1: in a position to make the right decision here? So
25:22
Speaker 1: let's see how much has the FDA come back to
25:26
Speaker 1: being what it should have been all along. But let's
25:29
Speaker 1: move on to another area, which of course is important,
25:32
Speaker 1: and that is the bedrock of where these companies come from,
25:36
Speaker 1: is the basic science. And there has been an enormous
25:40
Speaker 1: amount of worry with regards to the funding of basic
25:44
Speaker 1: science in the US, the changes in the dynamics that
25:47
Speaker 1: are happening there, NIH funding, et cetera. And you have well,
25:51
Speaker 1: from the outside, we worry. When I speak to people
25:53
Speaker 1: who are in universities and looking for their grand next grant,
25:56
Speaker 1: et cetera, they seem particularly worried. And how much worried
26:01
Speaker 1: should we be? Again, is this something that you think
26:04
Speaker 1: since will eventually prevail, because that's one way of pushing
26:07
Speaker 1: everybody to going source science from somewhere else Ea.
26:10
Speaker 2: China, Yeah, I mean, listen, I think that's I think
26:13
Speaker 2: we all should hope for that scenario to play out, Sam.
26:17
Speaker 2: I mean, the reality is, you know, the NIH and
26:19
Speaker 2: obviously the research institutions across the US have formed the
26:23
Speaker 2: bedrock for the innovation edge that the United States has
26:27
Speaker 2: had for the last you know, you know, ten, ten,
26:30
Speaker 2: twenty thirty years, certainly in the biotech environment, right, and
26:34
Speaker 2: so we need to do everything that we can to
26:37
Speaker 2: make sure that those institutions are well funded, that the
26:40
Speaker 2: talent is able to kind of do the work rather
26:43
Speaker 2: than having to worry about where their next grant is
26:45
Speaker 2: coming from. We've already seen instances of individuals leaving institutions
26:50
Speaker 2: but also the country to go elsewhere right where they
26:53
Speaker 2: can get access to the funding with some level of
26:55
Speaker 2: regularity and without the concern. And you know, so I
26:58
Speaker 2: would say over the over the near to short you know,
27:01
Speaker 2: short to medium term, it probably doesn't impact what's happening
27:05
Speaker 2: within biotech because, as you know, these products take years
27:08
Speaker 2: to sort of come to the market, and so what
27:10
Speaker 2: we're living through now our products that have sort of
27:12
Speaker 2: been through that basic research phase. But if you play
27:15
Speaker 2: it out medium to long term, and again you compare
27:18
Speaker 2: against what's happening in particular in China with your level
27:20
Speaker 2: of resourcing of basic science, it becomes more and more
27:24
Speaker 2: clear to me like the US loses its competitive advantage
27:27
Speaker 2: if we sort of move away from those first principles.
27:29
Speaker 2: So I do think I hope that we will get
27:32
Speaker 2: back to a place where we're supporting this basic research.
27:35
Speaker 2: It is ultimately the substrate that forms the basis for
27:38
Speaker 2: all the incredible work that happens within the industry, and
27:40
Speaker 2: it's something we have to be incredibly mindful of, especially
27:43
Speaker 2: for investors such as ourselves who are also starting companies
27:46
Speaker 2: from scrats, like working with scientists, founding scientists, right, and
27:49
Speaker 2: so it's something we have to stay very much on
27:52
Speaker 2: top of. And again I'm hoping, whether it's naive or otherwise,
27:56
Speaker 2: that there will be a turning of the tide here.
27:58
Speaker 2: Last point for Europe in particular, and I mentioned I've
28:00
Speaker 2: moved back to the UK, this should be an opportunity
28:03
Speaker 2: for Europe to really hopefully step up and maybe take
28:07
Speaker 2: on some of that responsibility. Because you've got incredible institutions here.
28:11
Speaker 2: You hopefully have funding, whether it's from government or otherwise,
28:14
Speaker 2: to be able to support that basic research, and Europe
28:17
Speaker 2: should use it to their advantage as you think about
28:19
Speaker 2: developing the next crop of startups that can come out
28:22
Speaker 2: of this ecosystem.
28:24
Speaker 1: Well, I hope that that actually happens. As you know,
28:26
Speaker 1: I'm based in London, I've been in this sex since
28:28
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, and I am a scientist, so all
28:31
Speaker 1: of these things resonated with me. The only issue being
28:34
Speaker 1: that I think the problem in Europe is not lack
28:37
Speaker 1: of funding and lack of good scientists, but it's more
28:41
Speaker 1: about how that gets translated into companies, and that's where
28:45
Speaker 1: all these years, I think we've not really been able
28:48
Speaker 1: to crack that particular nut. So maybe this thing will
28:51
Speaker 1: change now. I don't know whether that is the case
28:54
Speaker 1: or not, But let's talk a little bit about simeon
28:57
Speaker 1: regards to the specific areas are focused, and we'll come
29:02
Speaker 1: back to China AI and drug reimbursement and all that later,
29:05
Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, we're looking at
29:08
Speaker 1: company starts and science here, so looking at therapeutic areas.
29:12
Speaker 1: One area which has been really fruitful for the biotech
29:15
Speaker 1: sector had been oncology for many years. When I looked
29:18
Speaker 1: at number of licensing deals, still seems to command about
29:21
Speaker 1: fifty percent of licensing deals seem to go to oncology.
29:24
Speaker 1: But then you look at VC investing and in the
29:28
Speaker 1: past two or three years, oncology investing seems to have
29:31
Speaker 1: slowed down a lot. When I talk to some of
29:34
Speaker 1: my byside friends, they say it's getting very tough to
29:37
Speaker 1: decide because some of the preclinical stuff doesn't translate very
29:42
Speaker 1: well to the clinic. And to be honest with you,
29:44
Speaker 1: nothing is new there. I mean, on college has always
29:46
Speaker 1: been a bit complicated in that way.
29:48
Speaker 2: But so how do you.
29:49
Speaker 1: Sit with regards to where you are today and then
29:52
Speaker 1: we can talk about the future of where you think
29:54
Speaker 1: the best returns or the most interesting science is coming
29:59
Speaker 1: to you? Is it near psychiatry, rare diseases, immunology, inflammation, oncology.
30:04
Speaker 1: Has anything changed that's impacted the way that you're allocating
30:08
Speaker 1: capital into the different disease modalities?
30:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, good question. I mean, maybe let's just
30:13
Speaker 2: keep with oncology because I think it brings to light
30:16
Speaker 2: probably the lessons that we're applying head to toe. Frankly, so,
30:19
Speaker 2: I think you're right, Like oncology, it's such a massive
30:22
Speaker 2: driver overall commercial you know, experience and sort of enterprise
30:27
Speaker 2: across our industry. The challenge has been the last few
30:30
Speaker 2: years a couple of things, One what I would call
30:32
Speaker 2: sort of target crowding, and like a herd effect where
30:35
Speaker 2: everyone is chasing a very small subset of targets and indications,
30:40
Speaker 2: and frankly, it makes the practical aspects of even enrolling
30:44
Speaker 2: a study sometimes hard because we're all chasing the same
30:47
Speaker 2: subset of patients. So I think that's one thing, So
30:49
Speaker 2: how do we get around that. It means we probably
30:51
Speaker 2: have to be willing to take a little more risk
30:53
Speaker 2: around new targets, new approaches that again sort of stress,
30:57
Speaker 2: you know, stretch sort of the boundaries of what we
31:00
Speaker 2: think is possible today. I think the second point is
31:03
Speaker 2: what is made oncology such an interesting area from the
31:06
Speaker 2: time that I've been investing, is you can tell pretty
31:09
Speaker 2: quickly whether you have a signal, right, and in particular
31:12
Speaker 2: in diseases where that are driven by underlying mutations to
31:16
Speaker 2: the extent you can develop a molecule, whether it's small
31:18
Speaker 2: molecule otherwise that can target that underlying path of physiology,
31:23
Speaker 2: you can show in the first few patients that it's working,
31:25
Speaker 2: and that is incredibly powerful. And again going back to
31:28
Speaker 2: the regulatory interactions, has allowed us to bring drugs forward
31:32
Speaker 2: in a very short amount of time, so that I
31:34
Speaker 2: think is great. The flip side to that is, if
31:36
Speaker 2: you're really getting into precision oncology. As you know, within
31:39
Speaker 2: for example, non small cell, there are any number of
31:42
Speaker 2: different mutations, right. So, like, for example, we funded Turning
31:45
Speaker 2: Point Therapeutics, which was working on our ross one mutation
31:48
Speaker 2: specifically in non small cell and looking at ways to
31:52
Speaker 2: get around sort of the resistance pathways that usually you
31:55
Speaker 2: end up showing up as patients go through various treatment cycles.
31:59
Speaker 2: Once you start carving out a niche within a niche
32:01
Speaker 2: within a niche, if you think about the overall commercial
32:04
Speaker 2: possibility of a medicine like that, it becomes frankly pretty small,
32:08
Speaker 2: certainly for the large players. Right. So in the case
32:10
Speaker 2: of Turning Point, we transacted to BMS a few years
32:13
Speaker 2: back for around four billion dollars. Again like that, the
32:16
Speaker 2: trajectory of this molecule now it's been commercialized, is still
32:20
Speaker 2: early days, but again get to a value that makes
32:23
Speaker 2: sense for the deal that it's you know that BMS did.
32:26
Speaker 2: They're going to have to see significance or uptake in
32:28
Speaker 2: terms of the launch here, right. So I think that
32:31
Speaker 2: has also created a little bit of a challenge in
32:33
Speaker 2: an area such as precision medicine. And then lastly, In
32:38
Speaker 2: addition to target coverage, you've also now got all of
32:41
Speaker 2: these different modalities which presuly are going to work against
32:44
Speaker 2: similar solid tumor or liquid tumor indications. Right, So small
32:49
Speaker 2: molecule biologics, ADCs, radio farms, cell therapy, and you know degraders, right.
32:55
Speaker 2: And so finding the use case where your specific molecule
32:59
Speaker 2: and approach makes sense for that disease is something that
33:02
Speaker 2: we are i would say, now really deeply prioritizing. Rather
33:05
Speaker 2: than saying we're investing in the next ADC, you really
33:08
Speaker 2: have to be quite specific around why is this the
33:10
Speaker 2: best modality and target and approach for these patients, and
33:14
Speaker 2: ultimately what is the commercial value that you think can
33:18
Speaker 2: hopefully be realized if you are successful. Right, So those
33:21
Speaker 2: are the features I would say we think about moving
33:23
Speaker 2: away from herd mentality. That's number one, So being willing
33:26
Speaker 2: to take more risk. The second piece is again again
33:29
Speaker 2: really thinking about the commercial value of the product even
33:33
Speaker 2: if we get something through to market that becomes important
33:35
Speaker 2: to us. And then thirdly, again looking across these different
33:39
Speaker 2: modalities and picking horses for courses. Right, for certain diseases,
33:42
Speaker 2: it makes sense to use this versus that, and so
33:45
Speaker 2: What that means is like we're looking opportunistically again across
33:49
Speaker 2: disease areas, across different technologies. We feel pretty confident that
33:53
Speaker 2: there is enough compelling modalities out there. Now it's about
33:56
Speaker 2: prioritizing those modalities against specific targets that we think make
33:59
Speaker 2: them most sense and the commercial value that we can
34:02
Speaker 2: then hopefully garner.
34:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean absolutely.
34:06
Speaker 1: One of the other things that some folks have been
34:08
Speaker 1: telling me is that with the success of the checkpoint
34:12
Speaker 1: inhibitors trying to improve on that has been a big
34:16
Speaker 1: challenge in terms of, you know, the the finding finding
34:20
Speaker 1: the next check next checkpoint, or as I think the
34:23
Speaker 1: jargle goes, raising the tail of that couple of my
34:26
Speaker 1: curve seems to be ever eluding us. Although they're not,
34:31
Speaker 1: I mean, enough companies are trying it. Astros anechast throwing
34:35
Speaker 1: eight money at eight thousand patients in trials with their
34:39
Speaker 1: tidgit by specifics. So let's see if that works out.
34:42
Speaker 1: And you know, if the biology of by specifics is
34:45
Speaker 1: different to the single agents to put put together in
34:48
Speaker 1: a combination, we'll figure that out. What about other indications,
34:52
Speaker 1: I mean, if you look in twenty thirty one of
34:55
Speaker 1: the areas. I'm a neuroscientists by training, by long, long
35:00
Speaker 1: time ago. Obviously that therefore remains a passion of mine,
35:03
Speaker 1: and I'd like to see the same evolution of new
35:07
Speaker 1: drugs in that space. Separating out the two neuropsych from
35:11
Speaker 1: neurology organic versus. I mean, although there's a crossover there,
35:16
Speaker 1: how do you do you see that as an area
35:18
Speaker 1: that's going to become much bigger and much more amenable
35:22
Speaker 1: to interruption and change, just like I think immunology and
35:28
Speaker 1: inflammation has become that because of having been able to
35:32
Speaker 1: dissect all the various interlokens out thirteen, twenty three, seventeen.
35:37
Speaker 2: Et cetera, et cetera.
35:38
Speaker 1: What's your perspective there.
35:40
Speaker 2: I mean, listen, I think it has to be or
35:42
Speaker 2: we have to do everything we can to give ourselves
35:44
Speaker 2: the best opportunity for this to be the case. Right.
35:47
Speaker 2: I mean again, if you were asking me, where is
35:49
Speaker 2: the next checkpoint? Any better, where is the next EP one?
35:53
Speaker 2: It can and has to be within the context of
35:57
Speaker 2: neuropsych neurodegeneral disease. It's just given them massive unmet need. Right,
36:01
Speaker 2: So for that to be the case again, going back
36:03
Speaker 2: to the earlier questions. We need to be mindful of
36:06
Speaker 2: the investment that's needed on the basic science side because
36:09
Speaker 2: it is still an area where there's more questions than answers.
36:12
Speaker 2: We need to really understand causal mechanistic links around the disease.
36:17
Speaker 2: We need to again, I believe we have the tools
36:19
Speaker 2: now to really interrogate both in terms of the treatments
36:23
Speaker 2: but also the diagnostics, the imaging techniques that we can use. Again,
36:26
Speaker 2: I'm really excited to see RNAi and what it can
36:29
Speaker 2: do in the context of various disorders, right neurodegenerate diseases
36:33
Speaker 2: in particular, and one of our companies, DRX, did a
36:36
Speaker 2: massive transaction with the ABV in the last couple of years,
36:40
Speaker 2: specifically using RNA to go into the neuro setting again,
36:46
Speaker 2: and this is going to be interthecle at this point
36:47
Speaker 2: in time, but again going after targets that we'll believe
36:50
Speaker 2: truly are at the root cause and using this approach
36:54
Speaker 2: to knock down the protein of interest its levels that
36:57
Speaker 2: are going to essentially approach ninety five to ninety nine percent.
37:00
Speaker 2: And so I think investment is required here. I do
37:03
Speaker 2: believe we're hopefully on the cusp over the next few
37:06
Speaker 2: years of some transformative new discoveries. There's going to be
37:09
Speaker 2: for sure still misses because this is a challenging area
37:12
Speaker 2: of development, but it has to be an area that
37:14
Speaker 2: we have to continue to invest, b bold take some risks,
37:18
Speaker 2: you know again, and I think this is an area
37:20
Speaker 2: that I believe the regulators are going to work with
37:23
Speaker 2: the companies as they're developing treatments. And as you know,
37:26
Speaker 2: these are not always objective, you know, you know, looking
37:29
Speaker 2: at a scan before and after like you have to
37:31
Speaker 2: sort of there there's an element of art and science
37:33
Speaker 2: to how you push programs forward. But we're very excited
37:36
Speaker 2: about neuro We've invested in this area, most recently in
37:40
Speaker 2: a UK company actually called Drake Therapeutics, which is developing
37:44
Speaker 2: molecules on the ampapam pathway. Again looking at sort of
37:47
Speaker 2: excitatory and in inventory pathways that in particular around neuro
37:52
Speaker 2: psychiatric disorders we believe are going to be really important.
37:56
Speaker 2: Nor A Quinn, if you're familiar with this company, has
37:58
Speaker 2: put out some really interesting data on the similar pathways
38:00
Speaker 2: that shows again a reason to believe. And so we're
38:04
Speaker 2: going to continue to invest and we believe that pharma
38:07
Speaker 2: as they look about new categories around which they can
38:10
Speaker 2: build or replanish their pipelines. It's going to be on
38:12
Speaker 2: their shortlist.
38:14
Speaker 1: So it's very nice the way that you dissected the
38:17
Speaker 1: challenge in oncology target crowding, precision medicines, making the potential
38:25
Speaker 1: future market kind of smaller and smaller and smaller, and
38:29
Speaker 1: then which modealities work best.
38:32
Speaker 2: What do you think the.
38:33
Speaker 1: Biggest top the top two challenges in this in addressing
38:40
Speaker 1: near a psych either because the problem I see with
38:44
Speaker 1: the brain is that it's once you get in, you're
38:47
Speaker 1: going everywhere. So is it fair to say that one
38:51
Speaker 1: of the challenges is targeting to specific regions, which of
38:55
Speaker 1: course you can do by direct injection et cetera, et cetera,
38:57
Speaker 1: but that's very invasive. What do you think that two
39:00
Speaker 1: top challenges to soltbar.
39:02
Speaker 2: I mean, the number one challenge for sure has been
39:04
Speaker 2: just how do you cross the blood brain barrier and
39:06
Speaker 2: get enough of your drug into the right compartment or
39:10
Speaker 2: tissue type to really have a PD effect. And again
39:12
Speaker 2: there's been data again I think Roche's most recent data
39:15
Speaker 2: I'm blanking on the on the program using their blood
39:18
Speaker 2: brain barrier technology again has given there are now starting
39:22
Speaker 2: to be i'd say, reasons to believe that you can deliver.
39:25
Speaker 2: And to your point, you know you can use image guided,
39:26
Speaker 2: you can use it. There are going to be some
39:29
Speaker 2: you know, more more invasive, less invasive ways of doing this,
39:33
Speaker 2: but that has been in my mind, the biggest doumbling
39:35
Speaker 2: box to be able to be able to even test
39:38
Speaker 2: a particular hypothesis. Right, So I think that's the first one.
39:41
Speaker 2: The second one is listen, I mean, let's acknowledge front
39:44
Speaker 2: and center the underlying biology of some of these diseases,
39:49
Speaker 2: and the targets that really are going to be causal
39:52
Speaker 2: and not necessarily correlative are still being worked out, like
39:55
Speaker 2: we're still trying to understand sort of the mapping and
39:58
Speaker 2: again over time confident we're going to get there. But
40:01
Speaker 2: it hasn't been as simple as quote and quote as
40:04
Speaker 2: it's been in cancer immunology. But again, through investing from
40:08
Speaker 2: basic research, through again finding ways to deliver the drugs
40:12
Speaker 2: and testing, that's the only way, ultimately, right, we can
40:15
Speaker 2: and should be able to get to hopefully meaningful treatment
40:19
Speaker 2: options for patients. And again, like I use rnais it
40:22
Speaker 2: a good example where again it is such a blunt
40:24
Speaker 2: force instrument in terms of if you have specificity around
40:27
Speaker 2: the protein you're targeting, if you have a way to
40:29
Speaker 2: deliver it, then you have a causal reason to believe
40:31
Speaker 2: in why that mechanism will work. Again, maybe it's in
40:34
Speaker 2: a subset of patients from whether it's PD or Alzheimer's
40:38
Speaker 2: or what have you. Then that's the way you start
40:41
Speaker 2: to really build conviction around the thesis, and then from there,
40:43
Speaker 2: potentially you know you can expand. Okay, okay, let's.
40:46
Speaker 1: Talk about China, because I think we're obviously here we're
40:50
Speaker 1: talking about hardcore innovation and discovery of biology to a degree,
40:55
Speaker 1: not even drug discovery the first steps. So I've been
40:59
Speaker 1: going to China for over twenty years visiting companies, and
41:03
Speaker 1: of course every time I go, the pace of change
41:05
Speaker 1: is so rapid that it's palpable, even if you go
41:09
Speaker 1: in once a year. So we have a situation where,
41:12
Speaker 1: of course the US is now we kind of touched
41:15
Speaker 1: on that, and there's some news today on it today
41:17
Speaker 1: be in the thirtieth of June, because these things move
41:21
Speaker 1: so fast that you need to be very precise about that.
41:24
Speaker 1: The day they were recording this about some companies, US
41:28
Speaker 1: Farmer companies being asked to supply information about trials that
41:31
Speaker 1: they have done in China. I think that's kind of
41:34
Speaker 1: the openings shot at this administration's investigation of involvement with
41:40
Speaker 1: China or China biotech. But when I and there's a
41:43
Speaker 1: lot of people who keep pointing to the fact that
41:46
Speaker 1: a lot of the drugs that come out of China
41:47
Speaker 1: are me Too's, or they have gone and worked on
41:52
Speaker 1: targets that we've identified them, made a better drug.
41:56
Speaker 2: Et cetera. So what do you see there?
41:58
Speaker 1: Do you see the I mean, sorry, let me just
42:01
Speaker 1: preface a little bit more here. In other sectors materials, chemistry,
42:06
Speaker 1: the pace of innovation has meaningfully outpaced the US and Europe.
42:10
Speaker 1: There is in terms of if you look at the
42:12
Speaker 1: number of publications in top journals in chemistry and other
42:17
Speaker 1: allied type of science, China is way ahead, way ahead
42:22
Speaker 1: biology not so yet. Do you see that same shift
42:27
Speaker 1: happening there? Do you see the real innovation coming.
42:30
Speaker 2: Out of there?
42:31
Speaker 1: Do you see a next our selex potentially being formed
42:34
Speaker 1: out of a China based science?
42:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I mean maybe some Let me go back
42:39
Speaker 2: to the first point I made on my bio, which
42:41
Speaker 2: is like as a physician and someone that really cares
42:44
Speaker 2: about medicines coming to market that can have patient impact,
42:48
Speaker 2: I frankly don't care where they're coming from, Like I
42:50
Speaker 2: genuinely don't, Like I want the best treatment options available,
42:53
Speaker 2: and I want to be able to as an investor,
42:55
Speaker 2: source those assets from anywhere in the world where I
42:59
Speaker 2: believe you can. You can, you know you have the
43:01
Speaker 2: substrate available, right, So that's a first principle. And if
43:04
Speaker 2: you're a patient, I don't think you care whether it's
43:06
Speaker 2: China source or US source on China itself. Like, I
43:08
Speaker 2: think it's a naive comment to make in twenty twenty
43:11
Speaker 2: six that they will not be able to innovate like
43:14
Speaker 2: they are just a few years into this journey of
43:17
Speaker 2: essentially designing and a completely new set of industrial you know,
43:22
Speaker 2: aspirations around how they can become a force in our industry.
43:26
Speaker 2: And they've already in my mind, they've already achieved so
43:29
Speaker 2: much within that short amount of time that if we're
43:32
Speaker 2: sitting here five years from now, Sam, I wouldn't be
43:34
Speaker 2: surprised if you have companies that have global, multinational footprints
43:38
Speaker 2: and really inability to have sort of end to end
43:41
Speaker 2: capabilities across disease areas that are coming or originating from China.
43:46
Speaker 2: Like it's just the talent that they have, the you know,
43:50
Speaker 2: what they've shown from a development standpoint, the regulatory interactions
43:53
Speaker 2: that allow them to move quickly. Obviously the number of
43:57
Speaker 2: patients that they have in that ecosystem to test is
44:00
Speaker 2: well as commercialized, it will be a force. It already is,
44:03
Speaker 2: in my mind, the second most important ecosystem that we
44:06
Speaker 2: have in our global footprint to think about how we
44:09
Speaker 2: are building or investing in companies. Right, So the question
44:12
Speaker 2: then becomes, how do we work with the you know,
44:15
Speaker 2: how do we take the best of what's happening in
44:17
Speaker 2: China and couple it with obviously the incredible entrepreneurial ecosystem,
44:21
Speaker 2: financial hobs listing in the US, the capabilities that obviously
44:25
Speaker 2: make the US in particular such a beacon of what
44:27
Speaker 2: we're doing. And there has to be a way to
44:29
Speaker 2: do this constructively. And again I go back to the
44:31
Speaker 2: Europe point. I do think there's literally and figuratively a
44:34
Speaker 2: way for Europe to be a bridge between China and
44:37
Speaker 2: the US in terms of how we design and develop
44:40
Speaker 2: these medicines. And so I'm hoping that we can collaborate. Ultimately,
44:44
Speaker 2: we all want the same thing. We want the best
44:46
Speaker 2: treatment options for as many people across the globe, and
44:49
Speaker 2: China is a force, and it will innovate and it
44:51
Speaker 2: will quickly move into the position where they are going
44:55
Speaker 2: after first in class or best in class, rather than
44:58
Speaker 2: necessarily copying what there's in the West. Yeah.
45:01
Speaker 1: Now, the problem for Europe, though, Simian, is that we've
45:05
Speaker 1: we don't seem to want to be able to want
45:07
Speaker 1: to be paying for or are able to pay for
45:11
Speaker 1: innovative medicines. Now, you know, when you see what's coming
45:15
Speaker 1: out of Germany, although I think there might be some
45:18
Speaker 1: propaganda there also that's being used to highlight the fact
45:24
Speaker 1: that pharma companies aren't getting the same sort of pricing.
45:27
Speaker 2: As they are in the US.
45:28
Speaker 1: How do you see this most favorite nation, this pricing conversation,
45:33
Speaker 1: how do you see all of that evolving and becoming?
45:37
Speaker 1: What sort of reality will we have in two years time?
45:40
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean listen, it is definitely you know, listen
45:43
Speaker 2: stepping back. Pricing pressure is only going up across every geography, right,
45:47
Speaker 2: including the US. Right, And so listen if you are
45:50
Speaker 2: if you're sitting in you know a large pharma company
45:53
Speaker 2: now and you're thinking about MFN, You're thinking about how
45:55
Speaker 2: do you maximize the peak sale period that you have
45:58
Speaker 2: now again and IRAFMFN, et cetera. Like you, as a
46:02
Speaker 2: fiduciary to your shareholders, you have to make decisions that
46:05
Speaker 2: are going to I think lead to some very tough
46:07
Speaker 2: conversations that are going to happen in certain regions. We've
46:10
Speaker 2: already seen it in Europe in particular, right, and so
46:13
Speaker 2: that is unfortunately now sort of the backdrop around which
46:16
Speaker 2: we are living. And so in Europe again, like the
46:19
Speaker 2: conversations that I'm having that we should be having is
46:21
Speaker 2: again we want, starting from first principles, we want to
46:24
Speaker 2: be able to innovate within these regions. We want to
46:27
Speaker 2: build the next crop of great companies. And you know,
46:30
Speaker 2: I think you made the point earlier there there haven't
46:32
Speaker 2: been that many examples of that. I would gently push
46:35
Speaker 2: back Sam and say, you know, people are still talking
46:38
Speaker 2: about Genentec. Genetek was fifty years ago. One company in
46:42
Speaker 2: the Bay Area is essentially created from the diaspora that followed,
46:45
Speaker 2: as well as just the ecosystem that exists. One company
46:48
Speaker 2: has created this aura around biotech in Silicon Valley, and
46:51
Speaker 2: so I think it's possible in Europe for a few
46:54
Speaker 2: small number of companies to have that aspiration to be
46:57
Speaker 2: built and that can lead to potentially.
47:00
Speaker 1: But no, but we've had them, We've had itally on,
47:02
Speaker 1: we've got gen Map, we have abivacs. Now back back
47:06
Speaker 1: up today because they just presented some more data that
47:09
Speaker 1: put people's fears about the cancer signal they saw. You know,
47:13
Speaker 1: they're there. It just never seems to be enough for
47:17
Speaker 1: local investors in Europe to get going. Oh yes, yes,
47:19
Speaker 1: we need to go an investment by yeah, we need
47:22
Speaker 1: to interrupt.
47:23
Speaker 2: But no, no, listen, that's step one. Like there have
47:26
Speaker 2: been companies I could argue, like Italian obviously end up
47:28
Speaker 2: getting acquired pretty early on in it's journey with GMJ.
47:32
Speaker 2: A lot of these companies are candidly focused on assets
47:35
Speaker 2: rather than building sort of holistically a deep pipeline, whether
47:38
Speaker 2: it's around a modality or across different areas. And again
47:42
Speaker 2: to your point, that's step one. Step two is again
47:44
Speaker 2: you need an ecosystem that has capital to support private
47:49
Speaker 2: scale up and into the public markets. And again to
47:51
Speaker 2: your point, the majority of companies that we invest in,
47:54
Speaker 2: they're going to list in the US, right, And so
47:56
Speaker 2: there's structural things potentially that Europe can do to try
47:59
Speaker 2: and at least create some level of leverage or capacity
48:02
Speaker 2: to continue to support companies through those next phases. And
48:05
Speaker 2: again I'm not saying this is going to be easy.
48:07
Speaker 2: I'm not naive about that, but I do think there
48:09
Speaker 2: are things that we can do, starting from where I am,
48:12
Speaker 2: all the way through you know, the later stage investors,
48:16
Speaker 2: to at least enable hopefully the next crop of company.
48:18
Speaker 2: You know, Urgenics is a great example. I think what
48:20
Speaker 2: they've built and what they'll can continue to do, you know,
48:23
Speaker 2: it is incredible. Right. But to your point on pricing
48:26
Speaker 2: and again how this plays out, Listen, this is going
48:28
Speaker 2: to be almost a tit for tat. You know, discussions
48:31
Speaker 2: that are happening between pharma companies in particular and their
48:35
Speaker 2: European stakeholders around access to medicines, the pricing that they
48:39
Speaker 2: can get, and being quite selective around where they bring
48:42
Speaker 2: their medicines forward to try and protect the premium that
48:45
Speaker 2: they're getting in the US. So there's no easy solutions here, Sam,
48:49
Speaker 2: I'd say the onus on me. What I can control
48:51
Speaker 2: is I want to have the medicine that has the
48:54
Speaker 2: most upside in terms of making the case financially that
48:58
Speaker 2: the cost of the medicine when you consider the context
49:01
Speaker 2: of the overall healthcare expenditures. First off, it's a fraction
49:04
Speaker 2: of the overall cost. And second off, there's actually a benefit.
49:07
Speaker 2: There's an ROI on investing in this medicine and paying
49:10
Speaker 2: for it because the downstream, the savings that you get
49:13
Speaker 2: right from potentially a curative approach. Right, those are the
49:16
Speaker 2: things that I think about that I can control, But
49:19
Speaker 2: there are no easy solutions given where these countries are
49:22
Speaker 2: and obviously where some of the regulatory and pricing dynamic
49:25
Speaker 2: is currently.
49:26
Speaker 1: So saman we've spent quite a bit of time and
49:29
Speaker 1: a few episodes talking to folks about AI as well
49:33
Speaker 1: in drug discovery, in drug development, in marketing and functions
49:39
Speaker 1: of pharma companies. So if I were to propose something
49:43
Speaker 1: to you, let's see and get your reaction on it.
49:45
Speaker 1: So the reason that pricing needs to stay where it
49:48
Speaker 1: is because a lot of companies need to spend large
49:50
Speaker 1: amounts of money on R and D. If the idea
49:53
Speaker 1: is at AI, and that's what I will the pharma
49:55
Speaker 1: companies say is going to cut the development time by
49:58
Speaker 1: twenty to thirty percent. They can cut out the white
50:01
Speaker 1: noise from going from phase one to phase two, phase
50:03
Speaker 1: to phase three. They can do a better job of
50:06
Speaker 1: finding the patients, so you enroll much faster and get
50:09
Speaker 1: the right patients, increase your property of success. Your biology
50:13
Speaker 1: has been better, You've done the right chemistry work better
50:17
Speaker 1: because you have all this AI helping you identify potential
50:20
Speaker 1: pitfalls before they happen. So all in all, your probability
50:24
Speaker 1: of success in your time to getting your data to
50:27
Speaker 1: the FDA or the regulator should be shortened. That raises
50:31
Speaker 1: that reduces your ENDE spend. Could that be a future
50:36
Speaker 1: way of managing the pressure from drug pricing and because
50:41
Speaker 1: otherwise these companies would be printing sixty percent operating margins,
50:44
Speaker 1: which of course no one's going to allow to happen.
50:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, listen, I think that is that should
50:51
Speaker 2: be the aspiration. Right and again like context here, Like
50:53
Speaker 2: you know, we're probably less than four years into the
50:56
Speaker 2: AI revolution, right. I THINKGPT is twenty twenty two Fall
50:59
Speaker 2: twenty two, so we're four years into this revolution. It
51:01
Speaker 2: is still in our industry, still at the early stages
51:05
Speaker 2: of really how it's being adopted and how we're seeing
51:08
Speaker 2: value being ascribed, And where I've seen the most focused
51:12
Speaker 2: certainly from the standpoint and investment in AI as it
51:15
Speaker 2: relates to drug discovery development is on the front end.
51:18
Speaker 2: It's on target biology in new ways to go after diseases,
51:21
Speaker 2: which as you know, takes years, if not decades to
51:24
Speaker 2: play out, right, I do think second point, I do
51:27
Speaker 2: think on the development side, the thesis you laid out
51:30
Speaker 2: it makes a ton of sense to me. And that's frankly,
51:32
Speaker 2: where we're spending the most time right now is how
51:35
Speaker 2: can you leverage AI to improve decision making in development,
51:39
Speaker 2: whether it's around which patients to go after, which endpoints,
51:43
Speaker 2: how you put together the data sets that give you
51:45
Speaker 2: conviction to continue to move a molecule forward, and that
51:48
Speaker 2: should on balance increase sorry decrease the time as well
51:53
Speaker 2: as decrease the attrition rates as you move molecules forward.
51:57
Speaker 2: And so if that's the case the ROI argument, and
51:59
Speaker 2: at the pricing, then you should have more elasticity there
52:03
Speaker 2: right to be able to mitigate against what is only
52:06
Speaker 2: going to be I think increasing price and pressure over time.
52:08
Speaker 2: So I believe in that argument it is still on
52:11
Speaker 2: the come. We need to prove that out over the
52:13
Speaker 2: next number of years, and certainly from our standpoint, we
52:16
Speaker 2: believe that it will be smaller companies disruptors that really
52:20
Speaker 2: are going to be able to show this quickly and
52:24
Speaker 2: pharma will private and follow. So that's what we're working on.
52:27
Speaker 1: And so to mean, on that topic, could you can
52:31
Speaker 1: do you have a sense that the hot air angle
52:36
Speaker 1: I wanted to use another word, but I don't know
52:38
Speaker 1: if we should do that on the podcast the amount
52:42
Speaker 1: of hot air exuded by companies since say twenty eighteen
52:47
Speaker 1: talking about machine learning, which then became AI and now
52:51
Speaker 1: long lane large language models. Do you think that's subsided
52:56
Speaker 1: in exchange for and has become actual value add from
53:02
Speaker 1: the effort they're spending in AI, because anyone can come
53:06
Speaker 1: and say yeah, you say, I mean, and I don't
53:08
Speaker 1: know how to how on earth I would go and
53:11
Speaker 1: verify what they do apart from asking some queries to
53:15
Speaker 1: LM to an LM or how much return they're getting
53:19
Speaker 1: for it. Do you feel, because I suspect you have
53:22
Speaker 1: a much deeper look into companies than I would ever
53:25
Speaker 1: be able to have, that that hot air switch to
53:28
Speaker 1: actual reality and value is actually happening.
53:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, listen, I'd say the reality is the
53:36
Speaker 2: sort of first generation companies have not delivered on the promise,
53:40
Speaker 2: like it has been more hot air than it has
53:42
Speaker 2: been substance. Now again like giving them the benefit of
53:45
Speaker 2: the doubt, it's still playing out still TBD, right, But
53:48
Speaker 2: the first set of companies I think have raised a
53:50
Speaker 2: ton of capital, you know, have been valued incredibly highly,
53:53
Speaker 2: brought in frankly generalist investors pretty early on, and have
53:57
Speaker 2: not yet shown to me. I don't think there's a
54:00
Speaker 2: single example of a molecule that has made it through
54:02
Speaker 2: development that is like AI derived or is sort of
54:06
Speaker 2: can have that stamp on it, right, So poof is
54:08
Speaker 2: still on the come. I do think we're in an
54:10
Speaker 2: environment now, as you know, where like there's so much
54:13
Speaker 2: giddiness around AI that I imagine there's going to continue to
54:16
Speaker 2: be hot air even within our industry and sector. And
54:20
Speaker 2: you know, for how long that lasts, I don't know,
54:22
Speaker 2: Like at some point you're going to have to pay
54:24
Speaker 2: the piper for the dreams and aspirations that you're putting
54:27
Speaker 2: out there. But again, what I said to you earlier
54:29
Speaker 2: around where I think we need to show value. Ultimately,
54:31
Speaker 2: the most important piece of the puzzle is development from
54:34
Speaker 2: a time and cost standpoint. That's where AI really needs
54:37
Speaker 2: to show how powerful it can be. And then we
54:40
Speaker 2: need to have an ability to really work with regulators
54:43
Speaker 2: that are going to be forward looking in the way
54:45
Speaker 2: that potentially they can help us accelerate some of these
54:48
Speaker 2: key steps leveraging AI. Right, so there's still hot air
54:52
Speaker 2: is a short answer. I don't think it's going away.
54:54
Speaker 2: We would love to be able to take advantage of
54:56
Speaker 2: the momentum in this area, but focus on fundamentals and
54:59
Speaker 2: what we're doing. But I would imagine you're going to
55:02
Speaker 2: continue to it's going to be quite noisy, I think
55:04
Speaker 2: for some time.
55:05
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, Now, so we're getting very very close to
55:08
Speaker 1: our a lot of time, Simeon, Do you have any
55:12
Speaker 1: final words you want to put in that something I
55:14
Speaker 1: should have touched on as regards as our trauma. Should
55:17
Speaker 1: I have asked you about football and who's going to
55:19
Speaker 1: win the World Cup?
55:20
Speaker 2: I don't know. You take your pick, Okay, so let's see.
55:24
Speaker 2: I mean, I think this is an incredible time to
55:26
Speaker 2: be investing in biotech from my standpoint, Like, again, you've
55:30
Speaker 2: got all of this incredible technology and ideas around how
55:35
Speaker 2: we're going to try and treat and cure disease. Like
55:37
Speaker 2: the idea that we're talking about curing disease, I think
55:39
Speaker 2: is something that as a physician, as a scientist, I'm
55:41
Speaker 2: hopefully we're excited about it, right, Like, that is something
55:43
Speaker 2: that is truly aspirational and there should be reward for
55:46
Speaker 2: it if we can do that.
55:47
Speaker 3: Right.
55:47
Speaker 2: So that's the first point.
55:49
Speaker 3: Incredible time you're going to do it with our selics
55:52
Speaker 3: although helps soul, but the car t is I mean,
55:54
Speaker 3: you know these things with one hundred percent you know
55:58
Speaker 3: or whatever, nine percent and MRD negativity at the highest
56:01
Speaker 3: most stringent level of to the minus six for whoever
56:05
Speaker 3: wants to go and look that up in multiple my
56:07
Speaker 3: loma is incredible.
56:09
Speaker 2: It is incredible. Right, So it's I mean literally rewriting
56:12
Speaker 2: the medical textbooks in terms of how we think about
56:14
Speaker 2: standard of care. The second piece is listen, it is
56:17
Speaker 2: a continually dynamic environment. We're living through black Swan events
56:23
Speaker 2: with such regularity now that I don't know if we
56:25
Speaker 2: still call them black swans, but I think if you're
56:27
Speaker 2: an entrepreneur or if you're an executive on the industry
56:31
Speaker 2: or your investor. Like the business model and the principles
56:34
Speaker 2: that you applied five, seven, ten years ago probably will
56:38
Speaker 2: need to continue to be updated regularly. Right, You're gonna
56:41
Speaker 2: have to sort of test your assumptions. Think at a
56:43
Speaker 2: systems level. Think again, not just US centric, but also
56:47
Speaker 2: globally and taking into account where China is moving. We've
56:51
Speaker 2: talked about Europe already, challenges as well as opportunities, and
56:54
Speaker 2: this is truly an entrepreneurial ecosystem, right, So not everything
56:58
Speaker 2: is going to work, and that's okay. We need people
57:00
Speaker 2: that are going to be brave, that can show why
57:03
Speaker 2: their technology, their products deserve attention from investors, from partners,
57:08
Speaker 2: and for those that can do that, they will continue
57:11
Speaker 2: to survive and thrive. And for those that can't, they won't.
57:13
Speaker 2: And that's okay, Like you take that and continue to learn. Right.
57:16
Speaker 2: So I think it's a dynamic time. It's exciting to
57:19
Speaker 2: be investing here. In terms of predictions, in January at
57:23
Speaker 2: JP Morgan, I predicted that my beloved Arsenal football club
57:26
Speaker 2: would win the Premier League, so I'm one for one there.
57:30
Speaker 2: I predicted England would win the World Cup. I'm not
57:32
Speaker 2: sure that's going to happen, but I'm hopeful we live
57:35
Speaker 2: in hope. Right As a venture capitalist, Sam, you have
57:37
Speaker 2: to live in hope.
57:38
Speaker 1: So that's well what is as a venture capitalists? You
57:41
Speaker 1: probably should be happy that you see some of these
57:43
Speaker 1: I do. I can't think of another phrase. Underdogs. Some
57:47
Speaker 1: of the countries that you did not expect to be
57:49
Speaker 1: making sure making you so far. So that's maybe maybe
57:52
Speaker 1: that's the same for European biotech and we'll we'll make
57:55
Speaker 1: it on the same basis. Simon Jewish, thank you very
57:58
Speaker 1: much for joining me. It's been a pleasure talking to
58:00
Speaker 1: you and learning from you. And this is our latest episode,
58:04
Speaker 1: so please don't forget to give us a review and
58:07
Speaker 1: make sure to click the follow button on your favorite
58:10
Speaker 1: podcast app or site so you never miss a discussion
58:14
Speaker 1: with leaders such as Simeon that we've had in the
58:17
Speaker 1: healthcare innovation. I'm Sam Fazelli and you've been listening to
58:20
Speaker 1: the Vanguards of Healthcare podcast by Bloomberg Intelligence.
58:23
Speaker 2: Until next time, take care,