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Bryan Kohberger to Face Firing Squad? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease.
0:12
Speaker 2: Amidst all of the drama and the news be it
0:17
Speaker 2: false or true, swirling around Brian Coburger now charging the
0:22
Speaker 2: murders of four beautiful Idaho students. The big question right
0:29
Speaker 2: now is will the state seek the death penalty? This
0:35
Speaker 2: as more and more evidence seemingly bubbling up about prior
0:42
Speaker 2: bad acts by Brian Coburger. Where it is whether it
0:47
Speaker 2: is going into a colleague's home and rearranging her possessions
0:50
Speaker 2: in order to get her to allow him to install Wi.
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Speaker 3: Fi security cams.
0:58
Speaker 2: Or possibly taking a neighbor's underwear out of a suitcase,
1:05
Speaker 2: is stuffing it in the door for car. The families
1:09
Speaker 2: of the victims are reacting, But right now will the
1:14
Speaker 2: state announce they are seeking the death penalty? I mean, see, Grace,
1:19
Speaker 2: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
1:22
Speaker 2: here at Fox Nation and series XM one eleven. First
1:26
Speaker 2: of all, take a listen to former homicide prosecutor Matt Murphy.
1:31
Speaker 4: I think this one is pretty clear. My guess is
1:35
Speaker 4: he's seeking the death penalty. Now behind the scenes, what's happening,
1:37
Speaker 4: and she's probably meeting with the defense and saying, show
1:40
Speaker 4: me what you got to try to talk me out
1:42
Speaker 4: of it. Prosecute under these circumstances will wear they aggravating
1:45
Speaker 4: versus mitigating circumstances, And this case is so overwhelmingly awful,
1:50
Speaker 4: for lack of a better term, I think there's going
1:52
Speaker 4: to be a lot of pressure within the DA's office
1:54
Speaker 4: to actually seek the death penalty on them.
1:55
Speaker 3: With me an all star panel.
1:57
Speaker 2: But first I want to go to a former chief
2:00
Speaker 2: deputy prosecutor out of Idaho. This jurisdiction now with Building
2:07
Speaker 2: Hope Today, a nonprofit to help teach new prosecutors how
2:13
Speaker 2: to prosecute complex crimes. You can find Jean Fisher at
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Speaker 2: Building Hope todate dot org. Gene thank you for being
2:20
Speaker 2: with us. You know, I was just listening to what
2:23
Speaker 2: the former homicide prosecutor Matt Murphy said that the state
2:27
Speaker 2: is going to the defense and saying, in his words,
2:31
Speaker 2: show me what you've got taught me out of it?
2:33
Speaker 2: In other words, do you have anything that is so
2:37
Speaker 2: powerful it can make a jury return a not guilty
2:40
Speaker 2: or hang? And if you do, I may take DP
2:45
Speaker 2: off the table in exchange for a plea. I'm not
2:48
Speaker 2: sure that's happening, but could you explain that process. I mean,
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Speaker 2: when I handle death penalty cases, I basically had the
2:56
Speaker 2: defense lawyer saying, don't do it, don't do it, don't
2:59
Speaker 2: do it. But they never showed me any reason not
3:02
Speaker 2: to do it because they didn't want to tip their
3:04
Speaker 2: hand about what their defense would be.
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Speaker 5: Right, So I think, I mean, I agree with them
3:10
Speaker 5: that there probably is this conversation going on. Remember he's
3:13
Speaker 5: already been in jail since January, and if I had
3:18
Speaker 5: a fair guest, I wouldn't be surprised to find out
3:22
Speaker 5: that the defenses may have already had him somebody lined up,
3:27
Speaker 5: a psychologist or somebody lined up to come and visit
3:29
Speaker 5: with him and talk to him. They don't have to
3:30
Speaker 5: turn that over to the state, but they can tell
3:34
Speaker 5: you that they're going to do that now. On the
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Speaker 5: last big murder case that I had in Idaho, which
3:40
Speaker 5: was also a home intruder who came in murdered two
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Speaker 5: elderly people in their bed, plus their fifty four year
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Speaker 5: old son. I mean, that's what we did in all
3:51
Speaker 5: of this prep time leaning up to and pastor grand jury,
3:55
Speaker 5: was asking the defense, do you have any mitigating information,
3:59
Speaker 5: many gating facts that you really think we ought to
4:02
Speaker 5: know that would stand in the way of the death penalty.
4:05
Speaker 5: And you know, if you can, if you can figure
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Speaker 5: that out in advance, you know it certainly behooves everybody.
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Speaker 5: And it depends on the relationship that the prosecutor has
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Speaker 5: with the public defender in this case as well.
4:16
Speaker 2: Really interesting that you said that, Jane Fisher, because there
4:19
Speaker 2: are certain lawyers defense lawyers when I saw them come
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Speaker 2: and go oh no, here comes a big fat lie.
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Speaker 3: They're going to lie to my face and expect me
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Speaker 3: to plead down a case.
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Speaker 2: I've even had a defense attorney when his client didn't
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Speaker 2: show up for calendar call, got another person standing out
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Speaker 2: in the hall come in and pretend to be his
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Speaker 2: client so his client wouldn't go into bondforth for turning
4:43
Speaker 2: to get arrested. Luckily I had the bookend picture and
4:47
Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, that's not him. So some lawyers have
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Speaker 2: a reputation that you cannot trust. Then there were other
4:55
Speaker 2: lawyers that would come down the hall and go, oh, great,
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Speaker 2: here comes x y Z. I bet they've got something
5:01
Speaker 2: to tell me, and they would almost every time, and
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Speaker 2: it would affect the plea negotiation or whether you went
5:08
Speaker 2: to trial with the case or took a plete. You're
5:11
Speaker 2: absolutely right. We wonder what's happening behind the scenes. And
5:16
Speaker 2: with me a homicide prosecutor, former chief deputy prosecutor from Idaho,
5:23
Speaker 2: Jane Fisher, what are the aggravating circumstances in the Coburger
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Speaker 2: jurisdiction on which the prosecutor could seek the death penalty.
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Speaker 5: Well, in this case, it's clearly that there's more than
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Speaker 5: one murder. There's more than deliberation, I mean, more than premeditation.
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Speaker 5: There's certainly you're looking at the malice of forethought and
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Speaker 5: the manner in which the murders took place. I mean
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Speaker 5: looking at those four factors alone, you know all four
5:51
Speaker 5: of them you can tick off, and that you know,
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Speaker 5: from the states point of view, the death penalty. As
6:00
Speaker 5: far as the aggravating factors, I think it's really pretty clear.
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Speaker 5: But I think it's also really hard because they're working
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Speaker 5: with four different families, and even though the families in
6:11
Speaker 5: and of themselves do not get to make the decision,
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Speaker 5: you know, they're, in my experience, they're going to listen
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Speaker 5: to the families, and it would be hard if you know,
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Speaker 5: two said yes and two said no. I mean the
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Speaker 5: idea that death penalview is such a visceral reaction to
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Speaker 5: what we want to have happen. But remember, if they
6:32
Speaker 5: do go for it, it also means that they're all
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Speaker 5: in it together for the next, you know, twenty thirty years,
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Speaker 5: because death penalty cases just never end.
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Speaker 3: Guys.
6:42
Speaker 2: We're talking about when and if the state is going
6:45
Speaker 2: to announce they're seeking the death penalty. And you heard
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Speaker 2: Gene Fisher, a former chief deputy prosecutor in Ada County
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Speaker 2: there in Idaho. You earlier heard homicide prosecutors speaking to
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Speaker 2: our friends at Amuse Nation. Across the country, there are
7:02
Speaker 2: what is called aggravating circumstances. In other words, if any
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Speaker 2: one or more of those circumstances exist, the state may
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Speaker 2: seek the death penalty. The most obvious one, as Jean
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Speaker 2: Fisher pointed out, is more than one body mass murder,
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Speaker 2: and many jurisdictions is more than one body, and here
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Speaker 2: there are four. Another one in many jurisdictions is whether
7:26
Speaker 2: the defendant was lying in wait. Why does that matter?
7:31
Speaker 2: If someone is, for instance, sitting outside your house waiting
7:34
Speaker 2: for the right moment to break in and murder you,
7:38
Speaker 2: that signifies that there is the cold blood factor. In
7:44
Speaker 2: other words, they're not angry. You didn't get in a
7:46
Speaker 2: fight in a bar. It's not a sudden heat of
7:51
Speaker 2: the moment killing. They had time to think about it.
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Speaker 2: They had cold blood. In other words, they could have
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Speaker 2: rationalized their way out of the murders, which makes them,
8:02
Speaker 2: in the eyes of many, more heinous. And then, of
8:05
Speaker 2: course there's always the catch all, especially heinous, especially awful circumstances.
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Speaker 3: All of those are met here.
8:13
Speaker 2: If what the state has suggested is true. The family
8:19
Speaker 2: that Jeane Fisher brought up, the families involved here, what
8:23
Speaker 2: do they want?
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Speaker 3: Well, we know what one family wants.
8:25
Speaker 2: Take a listen to Shannon Gray then Salves, family lawyer
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Speaker 2: speaking to our friends.
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Speaker 3: In these nation.
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Speaker 6: Like every family, I think they want justice for the
8:35
Speaker 6: deaths of their daughter and Maddie and Zena and Ethan.
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Speaker 6: So you know, it's part of the process. You know,
8:44
Speaker 6: the tour claims. Notice that I filed is just standard procedure.
8:49
Speaker 6: You know, we hope that everything went perfectly and everything
8:52
Speaker 6: did everybody did the right things. But if for some
8:55
Speaker 6: reason something went wrong or something someone might need to
8:58
Speaker 6: be held accountable for some you're mandating to follow those
9:02
Speaker 6: notices the Gounzavis family obviously supports the death penalty in
9:06
Speaker 6: this case.
9:19
Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace.
9:23
Speaker 3: Joining me right now.
9:25
Speaker 2: Is the breaking news investigative reporter for the Washington Examiner.
9:30
Speaker 2: You can find her on Twitter at Rachel Underscore Shilkey.
9:34
Speaker 2: Rachel Shilkey is joining us. Rachel, what are they talking about? Specifically?
9:40
Speaker 2: You hear the Gunsalvas family lawyer speaking about filing a
9:45
Speaker 2: tort action against the state.
9:49
Speaker 3: What are they talking about?
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Speaker 7: So basically what they're doing is they're putting in their
9:53
Speaker 7: request that if the prosecutors decided they wanted to seek
9:56
Speaker 7: the death penalty, they are saying that we are all
9:59
Speaker 7: for it, basically a layman term.
10:01
Speaker 3: That's very odd.
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Speaker 2: Jane Fisher, former felony prosecutor and the Idaho jurisdiction, the
10:07
Speaker 2: Coburger jurisdiction. Why would you file a tort action a
10:13
Speaker 2: civil action against the state, i e. The prosecutors in
10:17
Speaker 2: this case?
10:18
Speaker 5: You know, I don't know when I read that. It
10:21
Speaker 5: surprised me in it and I mean it made me
10:25
Speaker 5: a little sad. Is that it just it presumes in
10:29
Speaker 5: this day and age that maybe I suppose that they
10:32
Speaker 5: think if somebody did something wrong. Somebody is going to
10:36
Speaker 5: pay for it somehow.
10:37
Speaker 2: Oh you mean, like if the prosecutor screws up or
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Speaker 2: one of the homicide well, watch out, Chris McDonald, cause
10:43
Speaker 2: I'm coming to the university, yeah, or the University of
10:46
Speaker 2: Idaho or the University of Idaho or Washington State University police.
10:51
Speaker 2: I guess I'd have to limit themselves to Idaho't think
10:54
Speaker 2: they've gone to WSU.
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Speaker 3: Or the homicide detective.
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Speaker 2: I mean, I told you one time I had a
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Speaker 2: homicide detective fail to write his name on the outside
11:04
Speaker 2: of the blood we use for the DNA comparison, and
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Speaker 2: the chain of custody could have been attacked, possibly successfully,
11:12
Speaker 2: and right before Charle I had have redone again, same results.
11:15
Speaker 2: But still it's an error like that. Is that where
11:19
Speaker 2: you're talking about Jane Fisher?
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Speaker 5: I really don't know. I haven't really either. I haven't
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Speaker 5: heard of them of a defense of a victim's family
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Speaker 5: filing a tour just in case.
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Speaker 3: Just in case somebody screwed up.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've never heard of it before either, because a
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Speaker 2: gene when you go into court and you're prosecuting a case,
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Speaker 2: you're representing the victim and the people you're representing the state,
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Speaker 2: and I like to turn around and see the victim's
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Speaker 2: family on the front row. Now, there were cases where
11:51
Speaker 2: they weren't. They didn't agree with me. Specifically, when an adult,
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Speaker 2: typically a male, was charged in murdering the mother, very
12:01
Speaker 2: often the adult children refuse to believe it. They sit
12:04
Speaker 2: over behind the father, they sit on the defense side,
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Speaker 2: And you know, you can't help that, and you've got
12:10
Speaker 2: to go forward with what you believe is true. But
12:13
Speaker 2: that's how does that strike you? I wonder if they're
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Speaker 2: concerned about any particular thing having gone wrong in the investigation.
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Speaker 5: I don't know if it clearly. I mean, I don't
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Speaker 5: know that it clearly says that. I just think it's
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Speaker 5: the state of where we are today in litigation, quite frankly,
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Speaker 5: and it makes me.
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Speaker 7: It does.
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Speaker 5: It's so frustrating because you do, as a prosecutor, want
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Speaker 5: to stand up and say we're going to do everything
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Speaker 5: that we can for justice, for the state and for
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Speaker 5: the family. Even though they file the tourd against us,
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Speaker 5: of which they're not naming us, but just in case
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Speaker 5: they are. It just feels it doesn't feel good.
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Speaker 3: You know, it sounds very well.
12:52
Speaker 2: Maybe the parents believe they have reason to do this.
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Speaker 2: I know that many of them are angry about that
13:00
Speaker 2: gag order and other things. Remember at the beginning, Rachel
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Speaker 2: show Key with me, breaking news reporter for Washington Examiner.
13:08
Speaker 2: Remember at the beginning, the families were very upset. They
13:12
Speaker 2: were not They were saying they were not getting information
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Speaker 2: from the homicide detectives, and maybe there was a reason
13:20
Speaker 2: for that, but that's how they felt, and so I
13:25
Speaker 2: believe their feelings were justified. Even if the homicide team
13:30
Speaker 2: detectives had a reason, they should have explained that to
13:34
Speaker 2: the family, this is why we can't tell you any
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Speaker 2: more information right now, and call them every day and
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Speaker 2: give them updates. But they were left right or wrong,
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Speaker 2: feeling like they were left out and were in the dark.
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Speaker 3: Remember that, Rachel, Yes, I.
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Speaker 7: Do, and I remember it being a very sad thing
13:51
Speaker 7: to hear these families go on air and go into
13:54
Speaker 7: these interviews talking about how they were didn't really have
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Speaker 7: any information, and even now they're still trying to fight
14:00
Speaker 7: even to be able to talk about the case. So
14:02
Speaker 7: it's just a really sad situation.
14:04
Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany Marshall is joining us guy. She is a
14:07
Speaker 2: renowned psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Heels at doctor
14:10
Speaker 2: Bethany Marshall dot com.
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Speaker 3: Go ahead, doctor Bethany Well.
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Speaker 8: In terms of group psychology, we see this in medicine,
14:16
Speaker 8: we see this in attitudes towards our police across the nation.
14:21
Speaker 8: Is that the people who are trying to help us
14:24
Speaker 8: are vilified and blamed if they don't do it perfectly.
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Speaker 8: That's just human nature. It's not whether it's from motherhood
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Speaker 8: or being a therapist, being a doctor, being a policeman.
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Speaker 8: Those of us who try to help others are very
14:39
Speaker 8: familiar with being blamed and vilified if it doesn't go
14:43
Speaker 8: exactly as the other person had planned. And I think
14:47
Speaker 8: it's a mistake to play into this group psychology. Even
14:51
Speaker 8: if you're an attorney, I don't understand the case like
14:54
Speaker 8: the attorneys here do, and you do, Nancy, But I
14:57
Speaker 8: think from age, just a social person, it's a mistake
15:01
Speaker 8: to buy into this fact that whenever we don't get
15:04
Speaker 8: exactly what we want from the people who are gathering
15:06
Speaker 8: to help us, we're going to sue, We're going to blame,
15:09
Speaker 8: We're going to attach blame to them. Because what happens
15:12
Speaker 8: is that everybody who's trying to help them. They're going
15:15
Speaker 8: to be scared now, They're not going to be able
15:17
Speaker 8: to think freely and act freely. That the people who
15:20
Speaker 8: are trying to help the family help the family in
15:23
Speaker 8: whatever way they think best professionally, unless there's some egregious error.
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Speaker 2: Two special guests joining us, Chris mcdonna, director, and I
15:32
Speaker 2: hear you, doctor Bethney. I'm going to use what you
15:34
Speaker 2: just said with Chris mcdonna, director, Cold Case Foundation important
15:38
Speaker 2: former homicide detective investigated only three hundred homicides. You can
15:44
Speaker 2: find them on YouTube channel, the Interview Room, or a
15:48
Speaker 2: Cold Casefoundation dot org. Chris, I mean I understand as
15:54
Speaker 2: a crime victim myself, a tangential victim of homae side,
16:02
Speaker 2: how the victims' families are feeling, or at least a
16:06
Speaker 2: little bit how not totally because I cannot even imagine
16:12
Speaker 2: losing your child. That said, I mean it puts the
16:17
Speaker 2: homicide detectives and the prosecutors are like walking on pins
16:22
Speaker 2: and needles, afraid for the other foot to drop, like
16:26
Speaker 2: a long tail cat and a room full of rocking chairs,
16:28
Speaker 2: Like what it's going to happen next? Everything they do
16:32
Speaker 2: is being put under a microscope. But Frankly, why shouldn't
16:36
Speaker 2: it be They should be doing their best. But I
16:39
Speaker 2: imagine it does give them reason to pause.
16:42
Speaker 9: And absolutely, Nancy, I mean here, this is a very
16:46
Speaker 9: critical time in this case in my opinion, because you know,
16:52
Speaker 9: more than anybody, you want to walk into that courtroom
16:55
Speaker 9: and we've said this before, you know, hand in hand,
16:59
Speaker 9: arm in arm with all four of those families, lock step, yeah, lockstep,
17:04
Speaker 9: and what and you know what's going to happen. The
17:07
Speaker 9: defense is going to in their opening statement, they're going
17:11
Speaker 9: to lay out, Hey, even one of the families thinks
17:15
Speaker 9: there's problems here, You're right, because there's you know, and
17:19
Speaker 9: they're gonna they're going to leverage that against the family.
17:22
Speaker 2: They could even call family members as witnesses. Yes, I
17:26
Speaker 2: don't want to give them any ideas, but.
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Speaker 9: No, but you and I both know, and everybody on
17:31
Speaker 9: the panel knows. You know, if I was Coberger's attorney,
17:35
Speaker 9: that's gonna I'm going down that lane.
17:37
Speaker 3: I'm running down that avenue.
17:40
Speaker 9: Yep, yes, ma'am. And he and she's got a couple
17:43
Speaker 9: of really smart former homicide guys you know, on the
17:47
Speaker 9: defense side, for the you know, for for him, I.
17:50
Speaker 3: Really explain that, explain that McDonough.
17:53
Speaker 9: Well, she's got a couple of retired homicide guys out
17:57
Speaker 9: of southern California who I knew years ago, out of Riverside,
18:03
Speaker 9: lots of experience. They are, you know, very skilled at
18:09
Speaker 9: solving crimes. And these are the guys who wrote the apphidavits,
18:12
Speaker 9: in my opinion, to circumvent the gag order, you know,
18:16
Speaker 9: to go after, you know, the two surviving witnesses to
18:21
Speaker 9: kind of get the statement out front. And so that
18:26
Speaker 9: was a smart move.
18:27
Speaker 2: Cunning maybe cunning to you know, treat the surviving victims
18:31
Speaker 2: that way.
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Speaker 3: I don't know that that would.
18:33
Speaker 2: Be smart, but cunning absolutely much better word. Cunning, very cunning. Guys,
18:40
Speaker 2: we're talking about is the state going to see the
18:42
Speaker 2: death penalty? If so, when are they going to announce it? Guys,
18:47
Speaker 2: if they do seek the penalty, let's address that. Take
18:52
Speaker 2: a listen to our friends at Inside Edition.
18:55
Speaker 4: Do you understand the charge of murders first sperience?
18:59
Speaker 7: Yes?
19:00
Speaker 3: Do you understand the maximum capitude?
19:02
Speaker 10: Yes?
19:03
Speaker 3: But when he was asked to plead.
19:05
Speaker 4: Mister Cover prepared to plead to these starts.
19:11
Speaker 3: He declined to enter a plea. The court entered a
19:14
Speaker 3: not guilty plea for him in stead a trial date
19:16
Speaker 3: of October second.
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Speaker 2: Idaho is one of five states with death by firing squad.
19:23
Speaker 2: You know, on a circle by Rachel Shilkey joining me,
19:26
Speaker 2: breaking these Reporter Washington Examiner. It was not many days
19:31
Speaker 2: behind us that Coburger stood up, and he had been
19:35
Speaker 2: speaking clearly with the judge, and then suddenly Kat got
19:39
Speaker 2: it's time, when it's time to announce.
19:41
Speaker 3: It not guilty. He wouldn't say a thing.
19:43
Speaker 2: The lawyer Antler said, he's choosing to stand silent. You
19:47
Speaker 2: know what, I've analyzed this up and down every which way,
19:52
Speaker 2: but loose. There was no benefit in that the court,
19:56
Speaker 2: as the law demands terday, not guilty plea for him.
20:02
Speaker 2: It doesn't help in bargaining. It's not some part of
20:05
Speaker 2: a scheme or a plan. It's basically, he's a drama queen.
20:10
Speaker 2: It's drama. That's all that was.
20:13
Speaker 7: Yeah, I would agree. I think there's definitely a dramatic
20:15
Speaker 7: aspect to this case. It's captured so much national attention.
20:19
Speaker 7: It's something I've been following for a long time, and
20:22
Speaker 7: I was even thinking to myself, you know, I'm wondering
20:24
Speaker 7: if you would just play guilty in bim the case
20:26
Speaker 7: is over, like that would be the end of this
20:28
Speaker 7: entire media circus that's been happening. I think that there
20:31
Speaker 7: is some I would agree with you there's no benefit
20:34
Speaker 7: to just standing silent, But I think it's definitely going
20:37
Speaker 7: to fuel fire to this frenzy that's going to be
20:40
Speaker 7: covering this case.
20:40
Speaker 2: And you know, talking to Bethany, he has cable TV
20:43
Speaker 2: behind bars and apparently watching every scentila of coverage on himself,
20:49
Speaker 2: and he garnered a lot of attention by standing silent
20:54
Speaker 2: and not entering a place.
20:55
Speaker 3: Totally.
20:56
Speaker 2: Yes, it's no legal strategy. It didn't help him or
20:59
Speaker 2: hurt him in any way to do that. Accept garner attention.
21:03
Speaker 8: Brian Kober loves to draw people into his web. That's
21:08
Speaker 8: his mum, whether as a peeping tom, whether as killing people,
21:12
Speaker 8: whether he's gathering underwear his trophies, He's always pulling people in.
21:18
Speaker 8: And what better way to pull people in than to
21:21
Speaker 8: stand silent and let other people guess. And now, of
21:25
Speaker 8: course what are we doing. We're talking about him, We're
21:27
Speaker 8: second guessing, we're wondering what it meant. So, you know,
21:31
Speaker 8: I think what happens with these criminals. Is at a
21:34
Speaker 8: certain point, the BS stops and they have to get
21:39
Speaker 8: off the carnival ride and what they do to try
21:42
Speaker 8: to excite and thrill others and to be at the
21:45
Speaker 8: center of things doesn't work anymore. But right now I
21:48
Speaker 8: think it's working in some moderate way because he stood silent.
21:52
Speaker 8: And now we're talking about it again.
21:54
Speaker 2: Hey, Now one theory is the reason he stood silent
21:58
Speaker 2: is because if he ever does let's just say, this
22:02
Speaker 2: goes all the way to a guilty verdict and then
22:04
Speaker 2: we go into death penalty phase. It's a bifurcated trial.
22:08
Speaker 2: Fancy word for two trials. You have the guilty innocence trial,
22:11
Speaker 2: then you have the sentencing trial. He could say that
22:15
Speaker 2: bifurcated sentencing trial. I never said I didn't do it.
22:18
Speaker 2: I didn't deny it. I find that disingenuous because he
22:23
Speaker 2: has had his lawyer say he wants to prove his innocence.
22:28
Speaker 2: He can't wait to go to court to be exonerated.
22:31
Speaker 2: That goes all the way back to the extradition hearing.
22:34
Speaker 2: So maybe that's his game. I don't know, but it's
22:37
Speaker 2: going to have little or no effect at all.
22:41
Speaker 3: Now, if the state does.
22:43
Speaker 2: See the death penalty, it is death by firing squad.
22:47
Speaker 2: I'm very curious, Jean Fisher, is there an alternative in
22:51
Speaker 2: Idaho or does it have to be death by the
22:53
Speaker 2: bullet now?
22:54
Speaker 5: Actually, in Idaho, the preferred method is still lethal injection
22:58
Speaker 5: and then by by firing squad was passed by the
23:03
Speaker 5: Idaho legislative this last year as an alternative means. But
23:07
Speaker 5: because it's been so difficult to get the drugs that
23:11
Speaker 5: we hear about all over the nation for the lethal injection,
23:14
Speaker 5: they opted to go back to the death by the
23:17
Speaker 5: firing squad.
23:19
Speaker 2: So they've got death by firing squad and then needle
23:22
Speaker 2: as a backup if they can get the drugs.
23:25
Speaker 3: Okay.
23:26
Speaker 2: Doctor Michelle Duprey joining me forensic pathologists, medical examiner literally
23:33
Speaker 2: wrote the book Homicide Investigation Field Guide. She shot to
23:40
Speaker 2: the national forefront during the Alex Murdock double murder trial.
23:45
Speaker 2: Doctor Michelle Dupree, thank you for being with us as
23:48
Speaker 2: we had this theoretical discussion about are we going to
23:50
Speaker 2: get the death penalty announcement anytime soon?
23:53
Speaker 3: And what is the mode of death?
23:55
Speaker 2: Can we just have a little recap about what happened
23:58
Speaker 2: to these four victims.
24:00
Speaker 11: Yes, Nancy, these victims were horrifically murdered. They were stabbed
24:06
Speaker 11: many times. There were sharp force injuries, There were defensive
24:11
Speaker 11: wounds on some of the victims. They had enormous pain
24:16
Speaker 11: and bleeding. This is a horrific crime, just horrific.
24:19
Speaker 3: Explain their stab wounds, the stab wounds.
24:22
Speaker 11: Again, the knife that allegedly was used is a knife
24:27
Speaker 11: that is sturdy. It can inflict serious injury. Obviously, the
24:34
Speaker 11: knife wounds, there were several on all of the victims.
24:38
Speaker 11: They the wounds hit significant organs and veins and vessels
24:43
Speaker 11: and arteries which caused extensive bleeding. The crime scene was
24:48
Speaker 11: a horrific, bloody massacre. Really, it was just a horrific crime.
24:54
Speaker 2: And we do know, or we believe we know that
24:57
Speaker 2: the victims were either going to sleep or drowsy at
25:03
Speaker 2: the time. But one of the survivors said they heard
25:09
Speaker 2: I think there's someone in here words to that effect,
25:14
Speaker 2: so they were awake.
25:15
Speaker 3: They were not spared any suffering.
25:18
Speaker 2: Some of the investigators stated, it's the worst thing they
25:21
Speaker 2: have ever witnessed, the worst thing they've ever witnessed. What
25:26
Speaker 2: about it, Chris McDonald, former homicide detective.
25:29
Speaker 9: Well, when you get into that kind of environment like that,
25:31
Speaker 9: immediately you were strong by the brutality of that attack.
25:37
Speaker 9: And in this case, because you have four victims, that
25:41
Speaker 9: brutality is magnified, you know, a thousand times, because you
25:47
Speaker 9: have to calculate out, you know, what was the sequence
25:51
Speaker 9: in relationship to which victim was chosen first, and then
25:56
Speaker 9: of course you have to recognize that the same weapon
26:01
Speaker 9: was utilized on the second, third, and fourth victims. So
26:06
Speaker 9: you have to now say to yourself, what is the
26:09
Speaker 9: raid that is driving from number victim one to victim
26:15
Speaker 9: number four? And you start learning quickly that the perpetrator
26:22
Speaker 9: who has the potential to do this. You look up
26:25
Speaker 9: on the ceiling, Nancy, and you see what's called cast
26:28
Speaker 9: off from each one of those strikes to these particular victims,
26:34
Speaker 9: and you must say to yourself, and you think to yourself,
26:37
Speaker 9: and I have vivid memories of going into those types
26:40
Speaker 9: of scenes that stay with me to this day. And
26:43
Speaker 9: I've always asked my shelf, how in the world could
26:47
Speaker 9: this amount of brutality take place in a very small
26:53
Speaker 9: environment and the suspect just walk out of that place
26:57
Speaker 9: and think nothing of it. Because when you get them
27:01
Speaker 9: in the room, in the interview room later on. Some
27:03
Speaker 9: of these individuals think nothing of it, and Coburger, in
27:07
Speaker 9: my opinion, is one of those individuals who is now
27:11
Speaker 9: on a stage bigger than he's ever expected. But this
27:17
Speaker 9: is what he did expect. He wanted to be front
27:21
Speaker 9: and center to the world and he's getting it.
27:23
Speaker 3: Guys.
27:24
Speaker 2: If the state does decide to seek the death penalty,
27:28
Speaker 2: which in Idaho is the firing squad or needle, when
27:33
Speaker 2: will we find out? Take a listen to our forensic
27:35
Speaker 2: crime online.
27:36
Speaker 12: Prosecutors have sixty days from Coburger's plea to decide whether
27:40
Speaker 12: they will seek the death penalty. So far, no decision
27:43
Speaker 12: has been made. If the state does ask for the
27:46
Speaker 12: death penalty, Coberger's attorneys would have to prepare a death defense,
27:50
Speaker 12: and the state must find a jury that would be
27:52
Speaker 12: able to oversee a death penalty case, which could possibly
27:56
Speaker 12: push this trial further out than October second. Some are
27:59
Speaker 12: also so questioning whether emotion could be filed to move
28:02
Speaker 12: the trial to a different county. According to Idaho Criminal
28:06
Speaker 12: Rule twenty one, a judge may only grant the change
28:09
Speaker 12: of venue for a trial if an impartial trial cannot
28:11
Speaker 12: be held in the same county or in the quote
28:14
Speaker 12: interest of justice and convenience for.
28:16
Speaker 2: The witnesses, sometimes similar transactions are allowed at trial. I
28:22
Speaker 2: do not believe any prior bad acts are going to
28:26
Speaker 2: come in in the Coburger trial in the case in chief.
28:30
Speaker 2: Possibly if there's a conviction at the sentencing phase, we'll
28:36
Speaker 2: find out about other cases, other instances, incidents that Coburger
28:43
Speaker 2: committed that are similar to the Idaho murders in some way.
28:49
Speaker 3: One thing that will not.
28:51
Speaker 2: Be part of that is the case of a forty
28:54
Speaker 2: five year old murdered mom out of his hometown in
28:58
Speaker 2: the Poconos where his family lives, Dana Smithers. Take a
29:02
Speaker 2: listen to Less Trent at Inside Edition.
29:05
Speaker 10: A mysterious development in the case of Brian Coolberger, accused
29:09
Speaker 10: of murdering those four University of Idaho students. There are
29:12
Speaker 10: reports Brian Colberger's father, Michael, testified before grand jury at
29:16
Speaker 10: this courthouse in Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania today. His mother, Mary Anne
29:20
Speaker 10: reportedly testified earlier this week. The grand jury is investigating
29:24
Speaker 10: the death of Dana Smithers, a mother of three who
29:27
Speaker 10: disappeared a year ago. Her body was found in a
29:30
Speaker 10: wooded area near Stroudsburg in April, about thirty miles from
29:34
Speaker 10: the Coburger home.
29:36
Speaker 2: Many legal legals did not believe the two would be connected.
29:40
Speaker 2: The ms were so different, and you have to look
29:44
Speaker 2: at whether Coburger was even there in the Poconos. Many
29:48
Speaker 2: of us believe the parents of Coburger were called to
29:51
Speaker 2: testify the grand jury to establish his alibi and rule
29:54
Speaker 2: him out in the Smithers murder. And we say the Smithers' death,
29:58
Speaker 2: we don't have a coeod are yet cause of death.
30:02
Speaker 3: But what about this case.
30:04
Speaker 10: New evidence that Coburger was stalking potential victims months before
30:09
Speaker 10: the murders. This just released police bodycam video shows a
30:13
Speaker 10: neighbor of the Idaho murder victims reporting a bizarre theft
30:16
Speaker 10: of a suitcase from her car.
30:18
Speaker 13: And then I found my underwear like shot.
30:21
Speaker 3: Right there in the cup holder.
30:23
Speaker 13: Yeah, and I took it out.
30:25
Speaker 10: It happened eight months before the murders. Look in the distance,
30:30
Speaker 10: that's the house where the four students were stabbed to death.
30:34
Speaker 2: There is a direct progression from smaller petticrimes to larger
30:39
Speaker 2: felonies and more.
30:42
Speaker 3: Listen, hey, how's it going here?
30:44
Speaker 12: You?
30:45
Speaker 3: Okay?
30:45
Speaker 9: So this morning I just.
30:48
Speaker 3: Got on yeskay.
30:51
Speaker 13: And this morning I walked up heres in my suitcases
30:54
Speaker 13: inside that I remember leading it in my car off
30:58
Speaker 13: my MR. I was like, hey, did my suitcases up
31:01
Speaker 13: and she's like yeah, I was in the middle of
31:02
Speaker 13: the road, and I was like, that's weird.
31:05
Speaker 3: Oh your suitcase was in the middle of the road.
31:07
Speaker 13: Yeah, it was like back over here, and I had
31:09
Speaker 13: it in the back of my car. Oh interesting, Like
31:11
Speaker 13: maybe I forgot and just left it out and I
31:14
Speaker 13: take it inside and I open it and all the
31:17
Speaker 13: stuff that I had, Oh I locked it ash wasn't key.
31:19
Speaker 13: So all the stuff I had up here, all my
31:21
Speaker 13: past stuffs and stuff I had in the center console,
31:23
Speaker 13: my sunglasses I was literally wearing yesterday were all shoved
31:26
Speaker 13: inside my suitcase and like it was like zipped back up.
31:29
Speaker 9: And so everything that you had in your front seat
31:31
Speaker 9: was now in your suitcase.
31:33
Speaker 14: Okay.
31:33
Speaker 13: And then there's like a shoeprint over here, and then
31:36
Speaker 13: there's like my fuse box under my steering whells like opened.
31:40
Speaker 3: Had no chance someone's playing a prank on you. Yeah,
31:43
Speaker 3: I didn't think so.
31:44
Speaker 13: I don't see why anyone I know would ever do that.
31:47
Speaker 13: But like me and then I found my underwear like shoved.
31:51
Speaker 3: Right there in the cup holder.
31:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I took it out to Broughter Bethany Marshall,
31:57
Speaker 2: a psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills. You have
32:01
Speaker 2: that incident and another incident that we have been discussing.
32:06
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut four to four our
32:10
Speaker 2: friends at Dateline.
32:12
Speaker 14: Our source says Coberger had befriended a woman in his
32:15
Speaker 14: graduate criminology cohort. The woman had returned to her apartment
32:20
Speaker 14: one evening and found some things amiss, items moved from
32:24
Speaker 14: where she'd left them in the kitchen, in the bath,
32:29
Speaker 14: quite bizarre. So what did she do well? Our source
32:34
Speaker 14: tells us that since nothing had been taken, the woman
32:37
Speaker 14: did not call the police. Instead, she called her new friend,
32:42
Speaker 14: Brian Coberger, who our source says, volunteer to come over
32:46
Speaker 14: and take a look, and he soon recommended the installation
32:50
Speaker 14: of a video security system and he Coburger volunteered.
32:54
Speaker 5: To do the work.
32:55
Speaker 3: Doctor Bethany Marshall, the similarity in.
32:59
Speaker 2: That alone, in that case with the female colleague from
33:03
Speaker 2: Washington State University is in my mind, except for the
33:07
Speaker 2: murder a fingerprint. You have the thrill of planning it.
33:12
Speaker 2: You have identifying your victim. You have the cat and
33:16
Speaker 2: mouse of building up her trust so she would be
33:21
Speaker 2: manipulated into coming to him to install the security system,
33:25
Speaker 2: entering the home, the thrill that must have been for him,
33:32
Speaker 2: if in fact these allegations are true, paralleled against email,
33:40
Speaker 2: contacting the Idaho students, some of them on social media,
33:46
Speaker 2: following them, going to their place eleven or twelve times
33:50
Speaker 2: before the murders, running into them, we believe, or watching
33:55
Speaker 2: them where they worked or went to school, ultimately entering
33:59
Speaker 2: their We haven't connected the underwear incident to Caiburger yet,
34:05
Speaker 2: and there's not a lot of security video cameras in
34:11
Speaker 2: the King Root area. So let's talk about the parallels
34:16
Speaker 2: in these three cases.
34:18
Speaker 8: Well, the parallels obviously, there's an offending pattern, and the
34:22
Speaker 8: offending pattern you describe so beautifully, But the underlying motives
34:26
Speaker 8: I think are being a sex predator and a sex
34:29
Speaker 8: addict with a prolific fantasy life where he has to
34:34
Speaker 8: choose victims to match up to his internal masturbatory fantasies.
34:39
Speaker 8: All of these victims have something in common. They are
34:42
Speaker 8: unaware that he's watching them. He's probably watching them a
34:48
Speaker 8: lot nancy, and what begins to pray upon is their femininity,
34:53
Speaker 8: whether it's moving underwear around, feminine items, or in the
34:59
Speaker 8: case of the four students, the three women who were
35:03
Speaker 8: were murdered, you know, taking a look at their pictures
35:06
Speaker 8: and maybe even using those as a part of a
35:09
Speaker 8: sort of like his own personal pornography of sorts, or
35:13
Speaker 8: also gathering them as trophies. Now, I think what distinguishes
35:19
Speaker 8: the four Idaho murders from the prior to incidents that
35:23
Speaker 8: you're talking about is that these women rejected him in
35:29
Speaker 8: his mind, the students Idaho students, he dms them, He
35:33
Speaker 8: tried to contact them, they didn't get back to him.
35:36
Speaker 8: And this is where the pattern of watching playfully toying,
35:41
Speaker 8: like you said, cat and mouse, using them to satisfy
35:45
Speaker 8: sexual fantasies men began to develop into rage and the
35:50
Speaker 8: desire to commit a statistic homicide. Because sadism and sexual
35:56
Speaker 8: predatory behavior do go hand in hand. So he could
35:59
Speaker 8: no longer use pictures and spying and looking and moving
36:03
Speaker 8: underwear around as a part of his sexual fantasies. Now
36:06
Speaker 8: he had to inflict pain to enhance his sexual fantasies.
36:10
Speaker 8: One more quick thing, Nancy that the stuffing of the
36:14
Speaker 8: of the underwear into the cup holder. I said, this
36:17
Speaker 8: may be unseemly and unprofessional, but the first thing I
36:21
Speaker 8: thought was stuffing a penis into a vagina that he
36:24
Speaker 8: was already you know, practicing a rape back when he
36:28
Speaker 8: did that, because that is just such a strange thing
36:31
Speaker 8: to do. And also when he gathered some of the
36:35
Speaker 8: items from the car into the suitcase, I also wondered
36:39
Speaker 8: if he wasn't preparing to take those home as his new,
36:44
Speaker 8: uh you know, war chest of trophies.
37:01
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
37:07
Speaker 2: To Jeane Fisher, former felony prosecutor in the Coburger Jurisdiction, Idaho.
37:15
Speaker 2: If and when the prosecution announces they are seeking the
37:19
Speaker 2: death penalty, and I do expect them to make that
37:21
Speaker 2: announcement within the next sixty days, how do you how
37:27
Speaker 2: would you foresee the state using similar transactions at the
37:33
Speaker 2: death penalty phase, such as manipulating the colleague, stalking her,
37:42
Speaker 2: going by her place, figuring out if she's home, a
37:45
Speaker 2: lot of planning, gaining access to her apartment. Did he
37:49
Speaker 2: gain access to the King Road home in the same
37:53
Speaker 2: way going there when she wasn't there, going into King
37:58
Speaker 2: Road when he thought everybody was asleep.
38:02
Speaker 3: How long he had.
38:03
Speaker 2: Been cultivating the relationship with the colleague, how long had
38:07
Speaker 2: he been stalking the Idaho victims going in for sexual gratification.
38:15
Speaker 2: According to psychoanalysts and therapists, that this violence and the
38:21
Speaker 2: stalking is hand in hand and sexually gratifies him in
38:24
Speaker 2: some way, going into we believe the colleague's bedroom, going
38:32
Speaker 2: into the Idaho victim's bedrooms, and ultimately performing a crime
38:38
Speaker 2: on the female victim. Three of the Idaho victims are female,
38:42
Speaker 2: in the same geographical area, in the same type housing,
38:48
Speaker 2: gaining entry into a residence. I mean, there's so many similarities,
38:54
Speaker 2: but the one is cut short because the female colleague
38:58
Speaker 2: was not murdered, She was manipulated into allowing him to
39:02
Speaker 2: set up the security surveillance. Do you believe that that
39:06
Speaker 2: instance can be used as a similar transaction at the
39:09
Speaker 2: death penalty? Aggravation says yeah, I think that.
39:13
Speaker 5: The one instance that you're talking about from the w
39:16
Speaker 5: SU student colleague that can be directly linked to you know, Colberger,
39:24
Speaker 5: would be used. You know, the instance that they're talking
39:27
Speaker 5: about with the girls, you know heard higher luggage, you know,
39:31
Speaker 5: the car broken into and and all of that. I
39:34
Speaker 5: mean it's highly I highly doubt that they will be
39:38
Speaker 5: able to use that.
39:39
Speaker 2: And last we find out he took some of the
39:41
Speaker 2: Idaho victims underwear, which would then make it more of
39:46
Speaker 2: a similarity and more relevant.
39:49
Speaker 5: But but I think, you know, there's they will have
39:52
Speaker 5: had so much more information by then as well, if
39:54
Speaker 5: it goes into the death penalty case, then the sense
39:57
Speaker 5: does have you know, has an obligation to turn over
40:00
Speaker 5: whatever it is that they intend to use in mitigation.
40:05
Speaker 5: But they will have learned so much more about all
40:08
Speaker 5: of them, will learn so much more about his past,
40:10
Speaker 5: his history, you know, the things that you've already heard
40:13
Speaker 5: about about his life in Pennsylvania, his you know, his
40:17
Speaker 5: behavior there. I mean, they all of that will the
40:21
Speaker 5: state will be able to use in its aggravation part
40:27
Speaker 5: of the trial.
40:28
Speaker 2: It is a matter of progression, a progression from Chris McDonough,
40:34
Speaker 2: from peeping tom sending emails on social media, bumping into
40:40
Speaker 2: them at work. It leads up to murder. And again
40:45
Speaker 2: that is not statistical, that is anecdotal that very often
40:50
Speaker 2: we see killer start as for instance, peeping toms.
40:54
Speaker 9: Absolutely, and you know from an investigative aspect here, you know,
40:58
Speaker 9: just kind of overlaying the psychology of how this guy
41:01
Speaker 9: is operating. If we even go back to you know,
41:05
Speaker 9: the earlier just the initial female contexts at the barsh
41:10
Speaker 9: in Pennsylvania where he you know, if we tie that
41:15
Speaker 9: type of behavior into Okay, I've been rejected, Well, he
41:19
Speaker 9: has this fuel withinside of himself at those moments, so
41:23
Speaker 9: that fuel has to be you know, expelled somewhere. So
41:27
Speaker 9: I think there's a high probability of many type of
41:32
Speaker 9: voyeurism events that we just aren't aware of yet, even
41:35
Speaker 9: in Pennsylvania, and that a lot of those terabytes of
41:40
Speaker 9: data that's been turned over to the defense, I think
41:43
Speaker 9: there's going to be that footprint along into all of
41:48
Speaker 9: this you know, fantasy based problem that he was building
41:54
Speaker 9: and then eventually that led up potentially if he is
41:57
Speaker 9: the killer to the murder of before college students.
42:01
Speaker 2: And Rachel Shilkey joining US investigative news reporter with the
42:05
Speaker 2: Washington Examiner, What more can you tell us about Coburger
42:09
Speaker 2: as of today?
42:11
Speaker 7: Now? Basically he is going to trial on October second.
42:14
Speaker 7: I actually did some calculating, and prosecutors have until I
42:17
Speaker 7: believe July twenty second or twenty first of this year
42:21
Speaker 7: to term whether or not they're seeking the death penalty.
42:23
Speaker 5: So you know, right.
42:24
Speaker 7: Now he is sitting in jail and he's awaiting his faith.
42:28
Speaker 2: He's probably listening right now, listen to you talking about
42:31
Speaker 2: I'm Rachel Shulkey.
42:32
Speaker 3: We wait as Joseph Simp calls, goodbye, friend,