Latest / Substack Writers Salon / What I Learned From an Hour With Jane Friedman, “The Most Trusted Voice in Publishing”

Transcript

What I Learned From an Hour With Jane Friedman, “The Most Trusted Voice in Publishing” · Substack Writers Salon

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, everyone.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited today to have with me an industry legend.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Look, I'm already getting people joining just because of your name, Jane.
• 0:14
  Her name is Jane Friedman and she reports on the publishing
• 0:18
  industry and she runs
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: more than one newsletter.
• 0:24
  She has a paid newsletter and then she has a free Substack
• 0:28
  newsletter where she just
• 0:29
  talks about the latest industry and the latest publishing
• 0:33
  trends and she has been
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: called the most trusted voice in publishing.
• 0:40
  So I am really excited and I'm actually I was surprised that
• 0:43
  she accepted my
• 0:44
  invitations since I'm a small fish but you know she's that kind
• 0:48
  of person that she
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: supports the underdog so
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Jane, thank you so much for joining me today.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to have you.
• 0:58
  And I already see that we already have 20 people live just by
• 1:03
  hitting go live today.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: So people are excited to hear from you.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: All right, Jane.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you said this is the first time you go live on Substack.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm excited to be the person who's doing that.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: So
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: You've been called, as I said, the most trusted voice in publishing.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: And for anyone who does not know your work yet,
• 1:25
  how did you build that trust over 25 years and what does your
• 1:29
  day-to-day actually
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: look like now?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I started working in the publishing industry in the 90s,
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: and I spent my whole career in this industry.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I started off working at Writer's Digest,
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: which still exists today,
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: although in kind of a smaller form.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: It used to encompass a lot of different things.
• 1:49
  And today it's mainly a magazine and an event program,
• 1:52
  both online and in person.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm still affiliated with Writer's Digest, but I left there in 2010.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then I started reporting on the industry around that time,
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: launching my paid newsletter in 2015.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I think part of it is I've been around for a very long time,
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: been very consistent in what I produce.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: I have spoken
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 2:42
  You also run the bottom line newsletter and it's on a different
• 2:47
  platform,
• 2:47
  not Substack.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: And why did you decide to host it somewhere else rather than Substack?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I know you're a bit skeptical of Substack.
• 2:57
  So I want to hear why did not you join the party where everyone
• 3:02
  is moving?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: And why did you stuck with a different platform?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 3:08
  the most simple answer is that I started my paid newsletter
• 3:11
  before Substack existed.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Had it existed when I started,
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: which was in 2015,
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: the ease of use would probably have been really hard to turn down.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I thought.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like when Substack first launched,
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: I thought,
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: oh my God,
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: finally,
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: someone has put together the tech stack required to easily manage a paid
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: newsletter.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 3:34
  that that was my first impression of it that before it became
• 3:37
  what it is today it
• 3:38
  has changed a lot over the years yeah um but then you know once
• 3:43
  I so I obviously I
• 3:45
  saw the tools for a few seconds I thought about switching but
• 3:50
  by that point I had
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: already put in all the work to create my own
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Natasha Tynes
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: every month.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 4:07
  it doesn't make sense for me to divert a huge part of my
• 4:10
  audience over to Substack.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: I've already built my platform.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, other writers aren't in the same position as me.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm well-established.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: I have this website traffic.
• 4:20
  I already had newsletters,
• 4:22
  free newsletters that helped lead into the paid newsletter.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 4:26
  the system was already up and running and I wasn't going to
• 4:29
  fork over 10% to
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Substack for something I'd already built.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: So as you said,
• 4:35
  Substack has changed dramatically and there's a recent case
• 4:39
  study of Lena Dunham.
• 4:42
  For those who don't know who Lena Dunham is,
• 4:44
  she's an actress who created the show Girls.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: And she recently published her memoir called Fame Sick.
• 4:52
  and I just read a story in I think it was Fast Company that
• 4:58
  says and they featured
• 4:59
  Lena Dunham as a case study in which she sold 60,000 copies of
• 5:05
  her book in a week
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: just by
• 5:07
  by leveraging Substack by using notes by appearing on by
• 5:11
  collaborating with other
• 5:12
  Substack authors using live so based on that do you still
• 5:18
  believe and I'm quoting
• 5:20
  you that Substack is both great and terrible for authors or now
• 5:25
  you thinkSubstack is
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: great for author after the Lena Dunham case of selling 60,000 copies
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there are many different use cases for Substack.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think that's what makes it so hard to discuss.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just one thing, and it's not one thing for all authors.
• 5:42
  So when I wrote my initial article about Substack as both good
• 5:46
  and terrible,
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was really looking
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: from the perspective of the value of having an author newsletter,
• 5:52
  like a free email newsletter that helps keep you in touch with
• 5:59
  the people most
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: interested in your work,
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: your fans,
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: basically,
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: or your peers,
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: your colleagues.
• 6:06
  And my concern was that Substack was introducing this paid
• 6:11
  subscription model and
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  SPEAKER_00: Which was,
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: like I said,
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  SPEAKER_00: this is a really valuable functionality,
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: but I would say the large majority of authors,
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: maybe 90% of authors,
• 6:23
  should not be charging for an author newsletter that is
• 6:26
  essentially a marketing
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: vehicle for their work.
• 6:31
  So I think it just Substack ends up conflating a lot of
• 6:34
  different goals under one
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  SPEAKER_00: umbrella,
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: also a lot of different functionalities.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so part of the point of my article was I love email newsletters.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: My career is built on email newsletters and websites.
• 6:49
  But I felt like Substack was really muddying the waters by
• 6:52
  suggesting people really
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: ought to charge for their email newsletter.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there are ways to do it.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: that can be productive, that can lead to a living.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: But obviously,
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think as you know,
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: as anyone who's here probably knows,
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Substack will suggest at every turn,
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: shouldn't you charge?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: People might pledge.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: How about earning some money?
• 7:15
  It is not easy to get people to pay for a subscription,
• 7:19
  I know,
• 7:19
  firsthand.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: the other thing I would say is that the Lena Dunham situation,
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: this is really about usingSubstack
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: as a means of book marketing and publicity,
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: whether or not you have a Substack newsletter.
• 7:34
  So I would certainly encourage every author of books to be
• 7:38
  looking at specific
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: people,
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: specific outlets,
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: media outlets,
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: individuals like yourself,
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: look at who is on Substack,
• 7:46
  who already has an audience that might be appropriate for my
• 7:50
  book marketing and
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: publicity campaign.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 7:52
  I wouldn't credit Substack for selling every single one of those
• 7:56
  copies of her
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: memoir.
• 7:58
  book sales are complicated right so that it comes from a lot of
• 8:01
  different places
• 8:02
  sources it's hard to track but I do think it gives credit to
• 8:07
  Substack for being
• 8:10
  critical in the literary bookish community I mean there's so
• 8:15
  many other examples we
• 8:16
  could point to that I think are super relevant for Substack's
• 8:19
  importance in writing
• 8:20
  and publishing like Ron Charles from the Washington Post
• 8:24
  jumping over toSubstack
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: after he gets laid off but
• 8:27
  And there was also a really good conversation recently between
• 8:30
  John Warner
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: and also making it possible for them to earn money from short pieces.
• 8:42
  It's filling this gap that was created by the decline of the
• 8:47
  newspaper and magazine industries.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's so hard to make a living as a freelancer today.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: That path is all but dried up.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: So Substack is fulfilling a really important role there.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: But if I'm just looking at author newsletter, I mean,
• 9:03
  There are lots of ways to do that and Substack isn't the end-all
• 9:07
  be-all.
• 9:08
  Well I think if you think of it only as an author but what if
• 9:11
  you think of it as an
• 9:12
  authorpreneur where the book is one part of your income but you
• 9:18
  have multiple
• 9:19
  streams of income like for me books is very small margin and
• 9:24
  the other way I make
• 9:26
  money is ghost writing book coaching and also Substack where I
• 9:31
  the way I monetize it
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: is I give everything for free but I give master classes
• 9:37
  for free for paid subscribers so they actually get something in
• 9:40
  return rather than
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: buy my book,
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: buy my book,
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: right?
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  SPEAKER_02: So I think there are two things.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: There's the author and there's the authorpreneur.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: And we all know that unless you're Stephen King,
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: living off your books is really,
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: really hard and you have to supplement it with other streams of income.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that's when Substack kind of fills that gap
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: between authors transitioning to an authorpreneur.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's why people like me need a place like Substack.
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  And the other thing is you have the Substack newsletter for you
• 10:21
  is for free,
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: correct?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: And the other one is paid.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Is that your model?
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  SPEAKER_00: So I have a lot of newsletters and it gets really confusing.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I am responsible for the mess, right?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:35
  So I don't really have a newsletter on Substack I mean I
• 10:39
  technically do but I post
• 10:42
  to it once or twice a year and it's really about what I call
• 10:45
  more personal
• 10:46
  quandaries related to the career that I have chosen which is
• 10:50
  ultimately advice
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  giver for writers or but you know I am I do more reporting
• 10:56
  business reporting now
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: than than I ever have and so
• 11:01
  That piece of my career has nothing to do with Substack It is
• 11:06
  run entirely through
• 11:07
  my website The newsletter itself gets through MailChimp But the
• 11:12
  subscription
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: management happens on my website And then I also have a free newsletter
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: So none of them are on Substack.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: and I just fully own and control what's happening there.
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  SPEAKER_00: I am not saying that people should follow my lead.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: As I said,
• 11:44
  there are a lot of unique considerations for how I've built my
• 11:47
  career over time
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  SPEAKER_00: that don't apply to other people,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially if you're early career and emerging.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Substack has really great built-in marketing,
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: promotion,
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: community discoverability,
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: the recommendation system,
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: the social media layer.
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  I coast a little bit on that social media layer because it's a
• 12:05
  really useful place
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: to interact with the literary community.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I'm here today.
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  There's a lot of the best conversations about writing and
• 12:13
  publishing are happening on Substack.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I participate.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 12:18
  but don't you feel like if maybe you participate more and show
• 12:22
  up more than just
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: twice a year,
• 12:26
  you'll get more discoverability because the magic of Substack is
• 12:30
  how you discover
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: new audience and it's basically
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: These are your people,
• 12:34
  it's your tribe You go where your tribe is and your tribe
• 12:38
  actually lives onSubstack
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Would that make you change your mind about being more active on Substack?
• 12:45
  Just to have a wider audience or you're okay with the audience
• 12:48
  that you have?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: for clarity,
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: the newsletter,
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: which is the name of it,
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: is Sinister Malfactor of Panglossian Expectations.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: I post to that one to two times a year, but I'm on notes every day.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: Ah, okay, okay.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: like I said,
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: I use it like social media,
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: so I am showing up as I would on any other social media site.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, I have to say that the problem...
• 13:19
  I think for others again those who are listening to if Jane's
• 13:24
  doing this should I do it?
• 13:27
  I don't own and control the social media engagement or the
• 13:30
  community here and but
• 13:32
  the people who subscribe to my newsletters off of Substack the
• 13:36
  people who visit my
• 13:37
  website that is more valuable to me than the ephemeral nature
• 13:41
  of social media
• 13:42
  interaction whether it's on Substack or LinkedIn or somewhere
• 13:46
  else so I would also
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: say that there is an enormous overlap
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Natasha Tynes
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Natasha Tynes
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: The title of this live chat is Publishing Trends, right?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of your specialty.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: And one thing I want to start the conversation is self-publishing.
• 14:45
  And the reason I mentioned self-publishing is because it keeps
• 14:48
  getting bigger and
• 14:50
  bigger and Amazon KDP and others keep improving the features
• 14:56
  and publishers keep
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: shutting down and making life really hard.
• 15:00
  To the degree I even interviewed somebody here on Substack who
• 15:03
  was offered a deal by
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Random House and he turned it down because like I make more money from
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: self-publishing I have more control
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: And on the flip side,
• 15:13
  there's the cachet of being a quote-unquote traditionally
• 15:16
  self-published author.
• 15:17
  And I've seen people in their bio now,
• 15:19
  they say traditionally published authors.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of saying author,
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: they have to add that kind of cachet that they traditionally published.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: So how do you feel about self-publishing?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: And where's the trend going in 2026 when it comes to self-publishing?
• 15:38
  I mean to just step back for a second self-publishing has been
• 15:42
  growing for a very
• 15:43
  long time now and in the last two years I would say the growth
• 15:49
  has been charged to
• 15:50
  a degree we have not yet seen because of AI so some of the
• 15:54
  growth is a little bit
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: strange and isn't the sort of person I would equate to
• 16:03
  You or someone who's on Substack or someone who's associating
• 16:06
  with the literary
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: community In other words,
• 16:09
  there are a lot of get-rich-quick schemes associated with some
• 16:13
  of the growth that
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: we're seeing in self-publishing because of AI
• 16:16
  So I just want to set that part aside because I'm not really
• 16:19
  actually interested in
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: the community of get rich quick book publishing people which exists.
• 16:28
  So to just look at trends for self-publishing for the rest of
• 16:31
  us,
• 16:32
  I would say that
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: If you're in a genre fiction category like romance,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: romanticcy,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: science fiction and fantasy,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: lit RPG,
• 16:42
  these are areas where there is a really strong career path for
• 16:47
  someone to go the
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: self-publishing route,
• 16:50
  but it really depends on being able to produce consistently
• 16:53
  over a period of years.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: It often means writing in a series.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's where you tend to see the success.
• 17:00
  and when authors are able to find their readership that way and
• 17:03
  it's often through
• 17:04
  Amazon let's be really clear as well as the Kindle Unlimited
• 17:08
  subscription program
• 17:09
  for authors who are able to make that work and again we're
• 17:12
  talking about usually a
• 17:13
  two to four maybe five year establishing period I find that the
• 17:19
  authors who do
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: really well end up selling some rights
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Tynes natashatynes Read and Write with Natasha Tynes
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: As reported by publishers, Marketplace doubling over the last year.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be from 2024 to 2025.
• 17:58
  So it's publishers like this pipeline because it reduces their
• 18:02
  risk and they are
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: building on a readership that's already been proven.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I expect this to continue.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's going to slow down.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: because in the past,
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: people used to tell you,
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: if you self-publish,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: nobody's going to look at you.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, like publishers are going to like completely reject you.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: But now it's changed where,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: and correct me if I'm wrong,
• 18:23
  where publishers come to self-published authors and try to work
• 18:28
  with them.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: But why did this change?
• 18:32
  Because of the stigma or because they proved their worth by all
• 18:36
  the books that they
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: sold on their own?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Why did it change?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think that publishers, first of all, they don't move all that fast.
• 18:52
  If they see a market opportunity in the self-published author
• 18:56
  space,
• 18:58
  it fits a hot sub-genre.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's much easier for them to pick up what's already working.
• 19:05
  I think something else that plays into it is how much more
• 19:08
  difficult book marketing
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: and promotion has become.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Part of this has to do with the collapse of traditional book coverage.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mentioned the newspapers and magazine industries cratering.
• 19:18
  I think how people find out about books,
• 19:22
  it's more driven by word of mouth among
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Peers, influencers, social media, you've got book talk.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so the old voices that used to help you discover books,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: they don't have as much relevance anymore,
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: and that's where traditional publisher strength typically lies.
• 19:42
  So,
• 19:43
  you know,
• 19:44
  I want to be clear,
• 19:46
  there are lots of different variables here.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like one sole thing that's causing this.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: But something else that's happened, I think, is
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Tynes
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Tynes
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Tynes
• 21:09
  And I do think self-publishing authors hold more power when
• 21:13
  they have that direct
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: reach to readership,
• 21:15
  and that's almost always the case with the genre fiction
• 21:18
  authors I'm discussing
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Fascinating Okay,
• 21:24
  what are the top publishing trends of 2026 and beyond that we
• 21:28
  should pay attention
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: to?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, AI is probably at the top of everyone's list, like it or not.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Just because there's so much uncertainty,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: fear,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: anxiety,
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: the lawsuits,
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: there's not a lot of transparency about what publishers are doing.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: who knows what the authors are doing,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: as we saw with the Shy Girl case where the publisher dropped the book.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think it also,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:55
  you're going to see more AI use that allows books to reach more
• 22:01
  formats or more
• 22:02
  audiences because AI reduces the costs associated with
• 22:07
  translations or audiobook
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: narration or audio translations.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that's something.
• 22:15
  Audio still has a lot of enthusiasm and energy around it
• 22:21
  because it appears to have
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: brought more readers into the publishing space,
• 22:29
  not least because of Spotify's entry into the market not that
• 22:32
  long ago in the grand
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: scheme of things.
• 22:34
  So everyone's kind of paying attention to how the audiobook
• 22:37
  market might grow
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: because it's been a really meaningful challenger to Audible's dominance.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's another trend that I've been watching.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'll pause there.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe if there's something you're curious about, I could speak to it.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: But AI tends to suck all the air out of the room.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: And how do you feel about AI?
• 22:57
  Because the conversation is so contentious and it's so annoying
• 23:03
  sometimes because
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: there's people who's like,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: I would never ever in my whole life use AI.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: And some people like, let's say...
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: respected authors like Joanna Penn,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: who runs the podcast What's the name of the podcast?
• 23:17
  I forgot The Creative Penn She's all about AI and she's very
• 23:22
  transparent about how
• 23:23
  she uses AI in fiction and other ways So where do you stand
• 23:28
  when it comes to AI?
• 23:31
  I don't like the circular firing squad that has emerged out of
• 23:35
  this issue and by
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: that I mean authors attacking other authors for
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: whether they decide to use this technology or not.
• 23:45
  I think that it's a really complex issue and boiling it down
• 23:50
  into black and white
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Tynes natashatynes
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Tynes natashatynes
• 24:28
  I would say that the other thing I would add is that all of the
• 24:31
  scandals related to
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: AI,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's Shy Girl,
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's a book reviewer using AI,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: like in the New York Times,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: it feels like there's a scandal every week or two.
• 24:45
  I don't think these scandals are indicative of how AI is going
• 24:48
  to change the industry.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: But that's often when authors discuss AI,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: when we talk about AI,
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: it often gets reduced to the worst actors.
• 24:58
  And so we're not talking very often about actually what are
• 25:02
  some of the enlightened uses.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they do exist, I promise you.
• 25:07
  um but no one wants to talk about it because they don't want to
• 25:10
  get shot down they
• 25:11
  don't want to be told you're a bad person those people are not
• 25:14
  speaking up to talk
• 25:15
  about it so I see my role in this is just as I see that my
• 25:20
  video stopped give me a
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: second I can still hear um
• 25:26
  I see my role as trying to bring factual information to all of
• 25:30
  this rather than a
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: lot of opinions.
• 25:33
  I think reducing the temperature in the room is more useful at
• 25:37
  this moment in time
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: and trying to give people a 360 degree view of what's going on.
• 25:47
  Yeah,
• 25:48
  like one of the things that people fail to talk about is how
• 25:52
  efficient AI can make it.
• 25:53
  For example,
• 25:54
  I recently has been messing with co-work,
• 25:57
  with cloud co-work.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: And the use is for, I hired an AI chief of staff.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: I called her Sultana.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: And every morning Sultana wakes up and tells me what I need to do.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like you have an interview for Jane, prepare for it.
• 26:15
  It's extremely efficient It researches all the media industry
• 26:21
  latest topics It
• 26:22
  arrives in my box Sometimes it responds to my emails in a draft
• 26:28
  format in my Gmail
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: inbox and I look at it and change it and I send it
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: I hired the whole assistant for free.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: I still pay for Claude,
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: but these are one of the uses that if you don't use i,
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: you're missing out on that level of efficiency.
• 26:44
  And I've seen it,
• 26:46
  especially with authors,
• 26:47
  it's a very toxic conversation.
• 26:50
  And the people who are transparent about it are very few
• 26:55
  because I think they're
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: worried that they're going to be canceled.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: I will say that I certainly use AI for business administration,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: for efficiencies in the work that I do.
• 27:08
  I'm basically a one-woman operation with my husband who
• 27:11
  supports the business as well.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I do want to say in regards to the publishing industry,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: because I think this is one of authors' fears,
• 27:17
  they fear that they're somehow going to be written out of the
• 27:20
  publishing story
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: because AI will replace them.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: or people who work as editors or other creative people in the industry.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: The AI's efficiencies will put them out of work.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is a really valid fear.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I would also like to say,
• 27:35
  and I think the good publishing leaders recognize this and
• 27:39
  there are more good ones
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: than bad ones.
• 27:42
  I don't think anyone believes getting a book to market faster
• 27:45
  is going to sell more
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: books or make the publishing industry stronger.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's
• 27:51
  and or producing more books is going to actually sell more
• 27:54
  books or make the
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: publishing industry stronger.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: So again,
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: all valid fears,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: but publishing's core problem has never been,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: oh my gosh,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: how do we get this book out more quickly?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's rarely about that.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Although I did talk about publishers catching up to translate,
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: this is a little bit of a different issue.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I just want to put that out there that I think that the way AI works
• 28:17
  Obviously this could go in a lot of different directions and
• 28:19
  I'm not going to
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: assume it's going to be all good.
• 28:22
  But I think if we're looking at AI for how it can improve and
• 28:27
  grow the industry,
• 28:29
  it really has to do with bringing more insights as to how
• 28:32
  readers can be reached,
• 28:33
  looking for patterns in all of the vast amounts of data that
• 28:38
  publishers hold about
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: book sales and marketing,
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: but they cannot analyze because they don't
• 28:44
  Have the time or they don't have the ability technically to
• 28:47
  analyze that data.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Other trends.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Is BookTok still big?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: Is it still the place or did we move past that?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: We haven't moved past it.
• 28:59
  It's still relevant,
• 29:00
  but it's not something that I personally engage with.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I just have to follow what other people are saying.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's a very specific Substack romancing the phone by
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh,
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: maybe someone in the chat can remember why I'm blanking on her name,
• 29:17
  but she's a literary agent and she often writes about what's
• 29:19
  happening on BookTok.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so I read her in order to ensure that I'm staying up to date.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: Another thing, what about live selling?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: Live selling,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen it with Amazon Live,
• 29:33
  where you go and interview the author and somebody approached
• 29:36
  me and I did Amazon
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: Live and then you have the
• 29:40
  The ticker comes with your books and you click and it started
• 29:42
  with TikTok shop with
• 29:44
  the live setting and I did experiment with it but I got so busy
• 29:48
  I forgot about it
• 29:48
  but I went on TikTok and I created a shop and I talked to my
• 29:54
  book and I said oh by
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: the way the link to my book is in this video and
• 29:59
  in two minutes somebody I just bought it I loved it and I was
• 30:04
  like astounded by the
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: concept of this live selling that's actually happening and you have like
• 30:12
  influencers like Gary Vee and who say live selling is the
• 30:16
  future do you think that
• 30:18
  live selling when it comes to books is another one of the
• 30:21
  trends that we should
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: keep an eye on
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: It is fascinating.
• 30:24
  And I did a piece late last year about some of the authors
• 30:29
  succeeding on TikTok
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Live specifically.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: It reminds me a little bit of,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: the days of QVC and the Home Shopping Network,
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: like the appeal of that.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: It goes back a long time.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: But for authors who have reached a certain level of success,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: I can see why it's in a very attractive path for sales.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the guys that I interviewed,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember if it was either,
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think it might have been AP Beswick.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: He's a fantasy author.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I also talked to Zach Diamante.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Those were two authors in particular who were using TikTok a lot.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: One of them did like a weekly...
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: live show on TikTok that was basically him boxing up orders.
• 31:35
  And he got to a point where he could reliably predict how much
• 31:39
  product he was going
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: to move as a result of doing that TikTok live.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: but there's,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:44
  both of those authors spoke a lot about the fulfillment burden
• 31:48
  that presents
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: enlisting family members to fulfill the orders because TikTok,
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: you have to get those orders out prompt.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be very prepared.
• 31:57
  But this only works for self-published authors because I don't
• 32:01
  think publishers
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: would allow you to sell on TikTok,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: correct?
• 32:06
  I mean I don't if you're traditionally published you can do it
• 32:08
  but you need your
• 32:09
  own stock or you would need to do it in partnership with your
• 32:12
  publisher who is
• 32:13
  prepared to fulfill the orders for you yeah yeah okay what is
• 32:18
  another thing we need
• 32:20
  to keep an eye on as as authors who want to sell books what is
• 32:24
  the one thing we
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: talked about AI or TikTok another thing um
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: For me, I think about podcasting.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: People say it's becoming a podcast tour.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: Before it was called the blog tour.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Now it's a podcast tour.
• 32:39
  What is the trend that we need to keep an eye on besides all of
• 32:44
  these things if you
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: want to sell more books or publish more books?
• 32:48
  Well,
• 32:49
  this just gives me a chance to give my speech about how
• 32:54
  whatever the new thing is,
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably just like the old thing.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: It just has a new name.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for marketing and promoting books,
• 33:06
  there's never going to be one path or one formula or one plan
• 33:11
  that's going to work
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: for every book and every author.
• 33:13
  And I always advise people to focus on your strengths when
• 33:16
  you're putting together
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: your book marketing or launch plan rather than
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Looking at the new shiny or what is the new trend?
• 33:23
  You have to really look at what your assets are and then also
• 33:26
  what you're actually good at.
• 33:28
  It makes no sense for me to tell people to go on podcasts if
• 33:33
  they're just not good at
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking on a podcast.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: there might be times when you want to beef up your skills,
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: get media training,
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: and you can make that decision.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I would first encourage people,
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: especially for a first-time book launch,
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: to look at where can you build on your strengths.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's usually where the success comes from.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'll stop there.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so who do you follow?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do you get all these latest information?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you're always on top of everything.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: I want to get your secret for free.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like, who are the people you follow?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: What's your media consumption like?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: Do you use AI to help you get information?
• 34:16
  Like,
• 34:17
  who's the people that you constantly follow to get this
• 34:21
  information from?
• 34:23
  There are some core industry sources that have always been
• 34:26
  there that are kind of
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: the baseline if you're following the publishing industry.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: It includes Publishers Lunch,
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Publishers Weekly,
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: the Bookseller in the UK,
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Publishing Perspectives.
• 34:39
  So you really need those as your baseline And then you start
• 34:43
  adding on people who
• 34:44
  are working inside or around the industry And lots of those
• 34:48
  people are onSubstack
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: and have Substack newsletters So if you go to my Substack profile,
• 34:54
  just click on Reads There's like 150 publications there Not all
• 34:58
  of them are
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: publishing related,
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: but most of them are And so you're going to find things like Publishing
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Confidential by Kathleen Schmidt or Lincoln Michelle's Countercraft
• 35:07
  um you're going to find uh Dear Head of Mine by a Big Five New
• 35:13
  York editor um and
• 35:15
  on and on Ann Truebeck of Belt uh Doug Siebold of Agate uh and
• 35:22
  then there's some
• 35:22
  people who are off of Substack like Kate McKean she used to be
• 35:26
  on onSubstack she
• 35:27
  does Agents and Books um and then I follow a lot of like
• 35:31
  journalism and digital
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: media newsletters like Brian Morrissey of the Rebooting
• 35:38
  Simon Owen's Media Newsletter because there's a lot of issues
• 35:42
  that overlap between
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: book publishing and digital media,
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: especially with AI and how writers earn a living since it often involves,
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: as you said yourself,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: multiple revenue streams.
• 35:53
  And so news organizations are dealing with those challenges
• 35:56
  very much in the same
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: way that writers deal with those challenges.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: so speaking of multiple income streams,
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: so you have your books and I have your,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: I got your,
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: The Business of Being Published,
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's called,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: Being a Writer,
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's one.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: So you have your books,
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: you have your newsletter,
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: you have your courses,
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: you sell courses as well.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: What are, like, how do you sell your authorpreneur empire?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: There's the paid newsletter,
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: which is a big chunk of money,
• 36:27
  and then the other chunk comes from online classes that I host
• 36:34
  and some that I
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: teach myself.
• 36:35
  I have an online education program that my husband and I run
• 36:39
  where we bring experts
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: to do one-time classes.
• 36:45
  Next week,
• 36:46
  I'm doing a class with author Stephen James on abandoning your
• 36:50
  outlines.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so we price them really accessibly.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's $25 per class.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's a one and done, 90 minutes usually, and then we move on to the next.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been doing that since 2019.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then I teach on my own.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't often host myself.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm usually teaching with other partners.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: So in another week or two, I'm teaching a class on how to
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: how to work with small and independent publishers because I think it's an
• 37:20
  under-discussed area with a lot of confusion and myths
• 37:24
  associated with it so I'm
• 37:25
  doing that in partnership with an online community called Inked
• 37:28
  Voices later this
• 37:30
  week I'm teaching with the Australian Society of Authors
• 37:35
  because I'm going to be
• 37:35
  speaking in Australia later this year so I've got this is my
• 37:38
  Australia year for the
• 37:39
  I don't know if anyone's tuned in from Australia probably not
• 37:42
  the time difference
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: is brutal yeah but yeah so that's
• 37:46
  That's where most of the income comes from and then there's
• 37:48
  like speaking and some
• 37:50
  other drips and drabs from other sources Any plans for new
• 37:54
  books in the future?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: No I don't like writing books I like writing newsletters
• 38:01
  Alright so before we go I'm just gonna go through quickly the
• 38:03
  comments and see some
• 38:05
  people have questions so someone called Emmett Taylor said Jane
• 38:10
  excited to see you
• 38:11
  I guess and then Politics and Aphrodisiac says your newsletter
• 38:16
  is great Jane I
• 38:17
  learned from it also Politics and Aphrodisiac say Substack is
• 38:22
  great but it has
• 38:23
  almost too much content so the competition is fierce I think
• 38:27
  it's better to have a
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: regular newsletter not onSubstack
• 38:31
  Emmett Taylor What do you do if you like Substack but not fan of
• 38:36
  other platforms?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: I lecture, I have a website and love sharing stories about my memoir.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: Should anyways, especially if I am trying to get traditional publishing.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you like Substack, stay.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's no reason to go somewhere else.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 38:52
  I think there's that my concern for folks relying solely on
• 38:57
  Substack is that what
• 38:58
  happens if Substack does something you don't like or they change
• 39:01
  the rules or it's
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: bought by someone that you have a disagreement with,
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: anything can happen,
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: But ride the train for as long as you can if you like it.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone else has any questions for Jane before we conclude?
• 39:18
  This is your chance and I believe this is her first Substack
• 39:22
  Live so I'm very
• 39:24
  excited to have that honor but anyway I'm gonna host the replay
• 39:30
  and send it to
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: everyone who could not join us but yeah I have somebody
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a market for political thriller based on elections set in Asia?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: I guess that's a very specific question.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: I guess he's writing a political thriller based on elections set in Asia.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have any experience maybe about political thrillers in general?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you can sell anything.
• 40:01
  It just depends on whether an agent or publisher likes your
• 40:05
  voice,
• 40:07
  likes the premise.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's too broad.
• 40:09
  You can sell anything,
• 40:12
  but it's all about the writing and the storytelling.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can answer that question by pitching it and seeing what happens.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: There's another one.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: Is platform becoming more essential for nonfiction trap publishing?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you want an agent or a New York publishing deal,
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: like a Big Five deal,
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: if you want an advance that exceeds $20,000,
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to have to have some kind of platform.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: But that doesn't mean big social media following.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: It just means how do you reach the audience for the book.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you're
• 40:48
  You're the leader of a national organization that ties into
• 40:53
  your book topic.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you host a really popular podcast.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you are friends with Oprah.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like platform means a lot of different things.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: Don't just boil it down to you need all of these numbers online.
• 41:05
  Although often I admit agents and publishers use that as a
• 41:09
  shortcut to determine if
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: you have a platform.
• 41:12
  But you have to look at it more holistically than just I need a
• 41:16
  social media following.
• 41:18
  Vincent Shaw saying,
• 41:20
  will the self-publishing sector continue to gain share of the
• 41:23
  markets?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: It seems likely,
• 41:26
  but I don't think it's going to be growing quite as much as it
• 41:29
  has in the last 10
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: years.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that I, yeah, it's a lot of, there's a lot of competition.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: I lost you here.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we see him.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: Looks like either my computer froze or we lost Jane.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: But we'll wait a bit to see if she comes back.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think it looks like we lost Jane.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: But that's okay.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you for...
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: I guess you're stuck with me now.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: But we'll wait a few minutes.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: But thank you, everyone.
• 42:16
  for joining us today and please stay in touch and I'm gonna
• 42:22
  host the replay I'm
• 42:23
  gonna post it and it's part of my podcast called the Substack
• 42:27
  Writers Salon thank
• 42:28
  you for joining me and I'm gonna wait like one minute to see if
• 42:33
  Jane comes back but
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: otherwise we will
• 42:40
  Call it a day and I'm looking at other comments somebody said
• 42:43
  this was great thank
• 42:45
  you but then somebody thanks Natasha and Jane when you get her
• 42:50
  back alright thank
• 42:52
  you but it's probably something happened that's okay thank you
• 42:56
  everyone for joining
• 42:58
  us today and please stay in touch and until we meet again for
• 43:02
  another episode of
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: theSubstack Virus Salaam thank you everyone bye bye