Latest / The Action Catalyst / How To Talk Good and Stuff, with Michael Chad Hoeppner (Speaking, Communication, Sales, Training)

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How To Talk Good and Stuff, with Michael Chad Hoeppner (Speaking, Communication, Sales, Training) · The Action Catalyst

0:00
Adam Outland: Welcome to The Action Catalyst. Today's guest
0:02
is Michael Chad Hoeppner, the founder and CEO of GK Training,
0:07
a firm dedicated to giving individuals, companies and
0:10
organizations the communication skills to reach their highest
0:14
goals in work and life. He's a coach, a professor and a
0:17
curriculum designer at Columbia Business School, as well as the
0:20
author of the new book, Don't Say, Um: How to Communicate
0:24
Effectively to Live a Better Life. Michael, thank you so much
0:27
for making the time. I was really looking forward to this
0:30
conversation for many reasons, one of which is that both my
0:33
parents were opera singers.
0:35
Michael Chad Hoeppner: Yeah, I knew that. I mean, I of course,
0:37
did a little research about you, and that's the coolest thing,
0:40
because you have already a shorthand vocabulary for a lot
0:44
of this. And my parents similar, were both professional cellists.
0:48
Adam Outland: Wow.
0:48
Michael Chad Hoeppner: Yeah, similar kind of artistic
0:50
passion, but yeah, my mom, in fact, is retiring from the
0:54
Colorado Symphony Orchestra after 63 years.
0:58
Adam Outland: Wow!
0:59
Michael Chad Hoeppner: In the orchestra, yeah, my dad played
1:00
more than 50 so together they have something absurd, like 115
1:04
years in the symphony, or something crazy.
1:07
Adam Outland: That's amazing. You can tell your parents that I
1:10
was temporarily dedicated to the cello until we moved to Boone,
1:14
North Carolina, and my parents decided to relocate our house
1:19
about a half a mile from where the bus would drop you off,
1:21
uphill. And in order for me to practice, I had to slug that
1:24
thing all the way. And quickly lost my inspiration.
1:28
Michael Chad Hoeppner: Time to switch to a violin, right, or
1:33
the triangle.
1:35
Adam Outland: The triangle sounded like it would have been
1:36
a good choice. Well, that's amazing. So yeah, you know, I
1:39
can relate a lot to what it's like to grow up with music. And
1:42
there's part of your story I was really curious about, which is,
1:45
you know, what was your initial inspiration to become on day?
1:49
Michael Chad Hoeppner: Hilariously, nothing of the kind. I come from
1:52
a blended family, eight of us kids all together, and none
1:56
pursued professional music. So I don't know if it skips a
1:59
generation or what that would be. But I actually was focused
2:03
on, I wanted to be a paleontologist or an
2:05
archeologist or a marine biologist, and that obviously is
2:09
not what has come to pass. So I didn't really get interested in,
2:12
let's call it communications of any kind, until middle school
2:16
and high school, and that was when I was getting into theater
2:19
a little bit. The pivot I'll hone in on, is actually fast
2:22
forwarding all the way until about oh 2010, or so, which is I
2:26
was a professional actor for about 10 years, Broadway film
2:30
and TV and but what I began to discover is that even more
2:33
interesting than portraying characters on stage, I became
2:36
totally fascinated by how people learn to do that activity. And
2:42
so I started becoming really obsessed about, how can you help
2:46
people be more more effective and calmer and more themselves
2:50
in front of audiences? So this was a somewhat natural evolution
2:54
into that. The biggest thing is that we really developed a way
2:57
in which to use embodied cognition, and by that, I mean
3:00
getting people to use their bodies to build habits. So, you
3:04
know, like the adage of learning to ride a bicycle and you never
3:07
forget, and we developed a whole suite of kinesthetic tools to
3:11
help people be more effective. So they're a little bit related
3:14
to theatrical training, but not really, because I kept hiring
3:18
actors to try to be coaches within our firm, and they looked
3:22
at me a little bit baffled when I would teach them some of these
3:24
exercises. I really discovered, as an actor, half my time on
3:30
stage was slightly equivalent to torture, painful, agonizingly
3:35
self conscious, hyper aware of every little thing, and
3:39
relentlessly self critical. Many, many artists out there,
3:43
and certainly most performing artists out there can relate to
3:46
that. And what I discovered was that if I could put my focus on
3:49
something very concrete, it was literally the only way I could
3:53
navigate through those, those moments of like, really painful
3:56
self consciousness. What I discovered was that, or that I
3:59
thought about it, the worse I felt, and the more I obsessed
4:03
about my feelings and my pain and things like this, the worse
4:07
I actually felt. And what I discovered was that simply
4:09
doing, putting the focus on doing and doing behaviors, and
4:13
just putting one foot in front of the other actually led to
4:17
much greater healing and greater escape, deliverance, all those
4:21
sorts of words. For many people, public speaking is equivalent to
4:26
agony. If you give them very concrete things that they can do
4:29
and succeed at, they can get past this agonizing moment and
4:34
experience a little, tiny, brief moment of victory. And from that
4:37
moment of victory, you can build and build and build, and pretty
4:40
soon they've established a completely different kind of
4:43
muscle memory that can help them succeed. One of the first
4:47
profound experiences I had individually coaching someone is
4:51
when I dreamt up this Lego block idea because he was having a
4:55
really difficult time memorizing anything. And so. What I was
5:00
trying to get him to do was to give himself just a moment
5:03
longer before all the terrible self critical, berating voices
5:09
came alive in his brain. And so I had him share one idea at a
5:13
time and stack a Lego block at the end of each idea. It gave
5:17
him something to do. Rather than you're terrible, you can't
5:20
memorize anything. What a terrible communicator you are.
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He had a distraction, something he had to do, and then in that
5:26
moment, this total miracle happened, which his brain had a
5:29
moment to think and actually recall the information he was
5:32
trying to remember. So it was this really powerful moment of
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kinesthetic learning. From there, I just developed these
5:38
exercises working with with real life communicators, both very
5:42
high stakes communication situations, like presidential
5:45
candidates for debate prep, but also people much more, you know,
5:48
Junior, which would be like high school students trying to get
5:52
better at speaking so they can give a good oral report.
5:55
Adam Outland: Yeah, quite, quite a wide range. I remember the
5:58
first time I encountered a challenge speaking. If I wasn't
6:02
in a good head space, I, like, my vocal cords would, like,
6:05
constrict or something, and I'd have to, like, clear my voice,
6:08
like, seven times. Super annoying.
6:10
Michael Chad Hoeppner: Yes. So blushing, you know, turning beet
6:13
red, dry mouth. There's a whole bunch of things that people
6:17
experience that are these physical manifestations of
6:20
feeling tremendously nervous.
6:22
Adam Outland: And so, your process is often to try and work
6:26
through the I don't you call it psychosomatic part, but the
6:28
emotional response, the nerves before diving into maybe more of
6:33
a tactical approach?
6:34
Michael Chad Hoeppner: Yeah, you use the tactics to unlock what I
6:38
call a virtuous cycle of good communication. So you
6:41
essentially fix the problem with these kinesthetic tools. They
6:46
use embodied cognition. They change the pattern dramatically.
6:50
And then once the pattern is changed, what also tends to
6:54
change is all those automatic responses that are happening
6:57
when the pattern is not going well. So there was a person I
7:00
worked with one time, who would always blush very, very
7:02
intensely, and I mean, instantly, she would start
7:05
public speaking, and instantly turn beat red, and she felt
7:08
terrible about this, and very self conscious. And so the first
7:11
thing she said to me is, I have to stop turning red. And I said
7:15
back to her, that's not true. You have to stop moving your
7:18
feet. She looked at me rather blankly, and what was going on
7:23
was that she would begin speaking, and totally different
7:26
than how she would stand or use her body, if she was talking to
7:30
a friend at the proverbial water cooler, she would begin to
7:34
relentlessly shift her weight back and forth, back and forth,
7:36
back and forth, back and forth, almost like miniature pacing,
7:39
but very rapid, rapid pacing. At the same time, she'd be turning
7:42
beet red, and she'd be trying to hide this by continually
7:45
smoothing back her hair over her face, trying to almost
7:48
camouflage this activity with this motion of her hands over
7:52
and over again. So I actually crouched down, and I gave her
7:56
feet some physical feedback to find stillness that tapped on
8:00
the top of her feet, put some books on top of her feet to keep
8:03
them anchored to the ground. And when she did that, all of a
8:05
sudden, magically, she actually took a breath in. Her diaphragm
8:09
dropped down. Her lungs filled with air, and her entire
8:13
communication instrument became still. And all of a sudden, she
8:17
spoke more slowly. For a moment, she breathed in. She got a
8:21
better idea. She realized she actually has something to say to
8:25
start the speech off, and she didn't blush.
8:28
Adam Outland: Sometimes you have to act your way into proper
8:29
thinking, instead of trying to think your way into proper
8:32
acting, right?
8:33
Michael Chad Hoeppner: 100%. If I could, if 1,000% was a thing,
8:36
I would say 1,000% but 100% Yes, precisely. Actors know this as
8:42
Inside Out versus outside in approaching of a character. You
8:46
can see this in other aspects of life too. I mean, anyone who has
8:49
become aware of some of the sort of approaches or focuses for
8:53
health and wellness and mental health, you hear people talk
8:56
about saying out loud each morning some gratitudes or doing
9:01
these physical things that are reminding you of some of the
9:05
mindsets that you want to keep. And yes, absolutely. I mean, if
9:08
you want to go religious for a second, think of all the
9:10
religious traditions in the world and how very often, if
9:14
there's a level of devotion that is trying to be unlocked, they
9:18
actually do physical rituals, sometimes even regimens. And
9:23
yes, these ways of acting, and if you want to use sort of
9:26
philosophical language, acting virtuous can unlock positive
9:31
feelings too.
9:33
Adam Outland: So almost an anchoring and through your
9:35
physical actions. One of the things I just... not to do a
9:39
perfect segue here, this will just kind of take us a different
9:42
road. But I have to ask for our listeners, the five Ps of vocal
9:46
variety. I'd love to hear what the five Ps of vocal variety
9:49
are, because I've learned how important vocal variety is.
9:52
Michael Chad Hoeppner: Yeah, the first thing I should say is I
9:54
did not invent vocal variety. Humans use vocal variety. We've
9:58
been using it as long as. We're human, and there's some really
10:02
important reasons why we use it, which we can get into but let's
10:05
cut to your question, which is these five Ps and those five Ps
10:08
are pace, pitch, pause, power and placement. Probably the
10:15
first four are instantly familiar. Let's go through them
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quickly. Pace is speed, so that's fast and slow. Pitch is
10:22
the note on a musical clef, high or low. So high or low, pause is
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exactly what it sounds like, silence, and maybe even varied
10:31
lengths of silence. Power is just another word for volume, so
10:36
that's loud and soft, and then placement is probably the only
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one that's not instantly familiar. Placement means where
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is the sound placed in your body. A big misconception that
10:49
people have about speaking is that it's a totally cognitive
10:52
activity, like if I think of smart words, I will say smart
10:56
words, but it's actually a physical activity. It takes 100
10:59
muscles to do what you and I are doing right now. It's a physical
11:03
activity. I mean, even just the act of enunciation, if you think
11:07
for a moment, even just saying the word enunciation, how deeply
11:12
physical that is, that final p of placement, just to be very
11:15
clear, because sometimes people get a little confused about
11:18
this. That means where the sound is placed in your body. So the
11:22
The easiest example to think about is, if you have a friend
11:25
with a really nasal voice, what's happening technically, is
11:29
the sound is only amplifying in like the nasal passages in the
11:33
nasal area of the face. So that's if P placement, and we
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use these 5p of vocal variety to do a whole bunch of really
11:42
important purposes, like convey meaning, convey emotion, create
11:47
surprise, and more and but those are the five P's.
11:50
Adam Outland: It's amazing. And as you keep going, I just, you
11:52
know, I do actually a lot of interpretation of these lessons
11:55
with my kids, because it's so relevant right now. Yeah. And
11:59
you know, your voice and communication is like the one of
12:01
the most essential things that I want to make sure they they can
12:04
do, because it's so critical to human relations. So anyway, I
12:09
love all of this training as a parent just as much as a
12:13
professional.
12:14
Michael Chad Hoeppner: Yeah, let's talk about kids for a
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second. So we are actually in the midst of a real crucible
12:19
moment in which how our kids learn to speak is a little bit
12:23
under threat because they spend so much time looking at these
12:27
devices right here. And for those of you who are just
12:29
listening, of course, I'm holding on my cell phone and
12:32
because they're not actually kind of learning interpersonal
12:35
behavior and interpersonal dynamic in the same three
12:39
dimensional, 24/7, kind of way that previous generations did.
12:42
It's fraught. It's in a little bit of danger right now, and I
12:45
applaud you for taking your one and a half year old's
12:48
development seriously, because it matters, and we take these
12:51
skills for granted. We should not.
12:54
Adam Outland: Hmm. I don't know how much international work you
12:56
do, but do you find change based on the geography someone's grown
13:01
up in, like a German person who's working on public
13:05
speaking, versus someone who's French or Korean? How that
13:08
impacts those five Ps?
13:10
Michael Chad Hoeppner: Yeah, for sure. So to answer the question,
13:13
yes, I've worked with folks on most of the continents of the
13:18
globe and all kinds of different walks of life. I for many years
13:22
when I lived in New York City, I taught at Columbia Business
13:24
School in the PhD program. And a lot of the folks who get their
13:27
PhDs at Columbia speak English as a second or third or fourth
13:31
language. I coach in the startup world a lot, and a lot of the
13:34
founders who are building companies in the US speak
13:37
English as a second or third or fourth language, and oftentimes
13:41
hail from somewhere else. And there's two ways I would suggest
13:44
we think about this. On the one hand, there are the core things
13:48
that humans do, and we do them all over the world, and that's
13:51
partly because we are communication instruments.
13:54
Communication is not a side card of being human. We built this
13:58
incredible system of spoken language to be able to team up
14:03
and gain an evolutionary advantage over somebody else or
14:07
some other creatures, or stop the marauding, you know, cave
14:10
bears or whatever it is. So this is just part of being human. But
14:14
then on top of that core, there is endless complexity with how
14:18
different languages work. So yes, there are these these
14:21
changes and these differences all over the place. And then
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oftentimes, what you're trying to do, though, no matter what
14:26
culture, is not unlock how an American would speak, or how a
14:30
German would speak, or how a Brit would speak, but you're
14:33
trying to unlock how that person would speak, but crucially, when
14:40
they are not thinking about themselves and how they speak,
14:44
but thinking about the person they're trying to reach, and all
14:47
of what we think of as the behaviors of presence or the
14:50
behaviors of confidence, that means enunciation and eye
14:53
contact and gestures and all the rest these come out flawlessly
14:58
when we're in that. Activity of really, truly trying to reach
15:02
the other person. So no matter the culture that I'm working in,
15:05
that's what I'm trying to help people unlock.
15:07
Adam Outland: So important. What do you see as the bigger
15:10
challenges as it relates to vocal, not just vocal variety,
15:14
but speaking in general, for salespeople? What are some of
15:16
the common concepts you end up leaning into the most with
15:20
people who are in that profession?
15:22
Michael Chad Hoeppner: I'm going to offer a tactical suggestion
15:24
first, because it's so useful and so relevant to selling, and
15:28
you can do it today and make your life better right away. I
15:31
teach an exercise in a skill called linguistic Well,
15:34
actually, sorry, the exercise is called finger walking. The skill
15:37
is called linguistic precision, which means, essentially, are
15:40
you choosing words, or are words just choosing you? So the
15:44
exercise is simply when you're practicing asking questions and
15:48
getting better at doing that, you walk your fingers across a
15:51
table or desk, choosing each and every single word that comes out
15:55
of your mouth. The finger steps are the equivalent of the act of
16:00
choosing words. So in a sense, you're walking your ideas across
16:04
the table. Now that's the skill, but the way to apply it, if
16:08
you're in a selling situation, is to practice asking single
16:12
questions with linguistic precision. There's no filler, no
16:16
non fluencies, and then at the end of the question, draw and an
16:21
imaginary question mark in silence. Now this is really
16:25
powerful for people in a sales role, because what you'll see is
16:27
that oftentimes they're great at chit chat, they're great at
16:30
rapport building, they're really good at asking questions to
16:33
learn more about the person. And then they get to the crucial
16:36
moment of asking for a next meeting or asking for the
16:39
business, and their communication falls apart, and
16:41
they ask like, nine questions in a row, and they talk really
16:43
quickly and a bunch of samples, and they go down, they back up,
16:44
they don't let it and all of it crumbles. And so you're
16:48
practicing this very singular skill of asking one question
16:52
with linguistic precision and then tolerating relaxed silence
16:55
at the end, so that you build the muscle of saying something
16:58
like, how would you like to move this forward? When would you
17:02
like to meet again? Is there anyone else that we should loop
17:04
into this conversation? And these kind of, what we call, you
17:07
know, closing questions, and very often, sales folks will
17:11
have a moment or two within interactions that feel really
17:15
fraught for them. And if they can build that skill single
17:18
questions with linguistic precision and relax silence at
17:21
the end. It really helps them.
17:24
Adam Outland: That's great. That's a great technician way to
17:26
look and reverse engineer successful communication. You
17:30
have this engineer mind about you that's allowed you to
17:32
extrapolate the tools to make someone a good speaker.
17:36
Michael Chad Hoeppner: Yeah. You ask really insightful
17:38
questions. I don't actually relate to having much of an
17:40
engineer's mind, I think I have much creative artists mind, or
17:43
even an inventor's mind. Creativity is the thing that I'm
17:47
pretty much addicted to. What I would say is that the
17:51
engineering concept is right in a certain way, which is I became
17:55
frustrated with how stymied people were by really bad
17:59
advice. And I don't mean to say bad advice, like they're being
18:01
sabotaged by people, but bad advice sounds like this. Just be
18:05
yourself. Just be conversational, Just be natural.
18:09
These sorts of things are intended to relax the the person
18:12
you're talking to, but they don't, because all they do is
18:15
make the person think more about themselves. And they're not
18:18
relaxed. They don't feel like themselves. They don't feel
18:21
conversational. They feel perhaps rocked with self
18:26
consciousness, as I became interested, like, how can you
18:29
get in there when someone has been really messed up, and
18:34
engineer them for greater success? By setting up their
18:38
physical and their vocal communication instrument for
18:40
success. I helped set them up for success, but it's them who's
18:44
doing it when they have like an engineer, set themselves up, set
18:48
their physical and vocal communication instruments up for
18:52
success. All of a sudden, their brain is dazzling, and it does
18:55
what it's incredibly good at, which is thinking about ideas
18:58
now that it's not totally jammed up with anxiety and and
19:03
multitasking of Don't be nervous. Don't look like an
19:05
idiot. Don't look like a fraud. Don't mess up. Don't all of a
19:08
sudden, brilliant things come out of their mouth. And if we
19:11
think of part of speaking as this act of being present and
19:16
being focused on the other person, you can't be present if
19:20
you are thinking about all the stuff you forgot, or anxious
19:24
about all the stuff you're about to forget. So very often,
19:27
written materials, although intended to be a support, very
19:31
often, they cannot be that helpful, because it puts you in
19:35
the past or the future endlessly. And the act of
19:39
speaking is a physical one. You're not going to be giving
19:42
someone a PDF with a bunch of bullets on it. You are turning
19:45
air into sound and then sound into words. You're doing it real
19:48
time, and it's being received real time. So anything you can
19:53
do to help yourself be in the present, as opposed to, you
19:56
know, those two other time zones that are not that helpful can be
20:00
powerful. Because here's the funny thing, I've actually
20:02
helped many people experience that, that wow, I'm better when
20:06
I'm not quite so anchored to my notes. The hard part is getting
20:11
them to have the trust and faith to actually try and test it
20:15
without it, and kind of get their sea legs with that,
20:18
because it it takes some bravery of letting go.
20:21
Adam Outland: Yeah, I love that. And I, you know, I'd have to
20:24
include this question, because I think of sales and acting and
20:28
how they're similar in so many ways. In sales, I'm very clear
20:32
you have a sales script, there's a purpose in remembering it,
20:36
because the words do matter to an extent, but not so much to
20:39
the extent that it affects the emotion of the conversation in
20:43
acting. This is the part in the world, I don't know, and so I
20:46
would love your thoughts. I don't know how often the
20:49
directors so hard on getting the exact words where you have to
20:53
get caught up in the words, or if you don't rehearse enough to
20:55
know all the paragraphs of information, it creates that
20:58
trauma cycle of, am I, you know, saying the right line, or if
21:01
you're allowed to be emotionally engaged, how does that? How does
21:05
that work in acting, and what's your take on scripts versus no
21:09
scripts in communication?
21:10
Michael Chad Hoeppner: So you have to promise to interrupt me
21:13
a lot in this next answer, okay, because that's a big, juicy
21:17
question, and we could do a whole separate podcast based on
21:20
that question. Okay, it depends on the version of stage
21:24
performance improv, there's no script. There may be a couple
21:28
like pretenses or a couple starting points, but then
21:31
there's no script at all. That's part of the delight. Sort of
21:35
like watching jazz musicians improvise, you get to watch
21:38
people impromptu come up with these hilarious and amazing and
21:42
heartfelt real time scripts. It's totally astonishing. On the
21:46
other side, you've got classical texts, Shakespeare, Chekhov,
21:50
things like that, where oftentimes the script is so well
21:53
known that if you really had a line club, some of the audience
21:57
might Hey, he forgot that word in general, stage acting is
22:01
required to be a bit more precise than film acting in a
22:05
couple different ways. So film acting, as long as you're not
22:08
having to do a bunch of takes in which lines are are piggybacking
22:12
100% on each other, then you may have some freedom, and the
22:16
director may want to take just the best take. So an example of
22:20
this is, if you're watching serial drama, law and order,
22:24
those sorts of things, there's quite a bit of latitude with the
22:28
script. Other times, there's not, and it also depends on the
22:31
playwright or the screenwriter. So there really is some nuance
22:35
there. But the place I want to do a tiny, deep dive, though, is
22:39
actually about this idea of scripting stage actors. What
22:43
they're striving for is the exact opposite, that it's not a
22:47
activity of trying to remember and a burden of mental memory,
22:50
but rather that the process of learning this language actually
22:54
informs them, and so these words become irreplaceable. These
22:58
words actually teach them who the character is. And if they
23:02
really get behind the words. They actually teach them what
23:06
the action often is. I mean, as an example, here's a piece of
23:09
poetry I question things and do not find one that will answer to
23:14
my mind and all the world appears unkind. Now, if you
23:17
listen to that, a bunch of those words have final voiced
23:20
consonants. Question things do not find one that will answer to
23:24
my mind, final voice consonants just mean consonants that have
23:28
vocal tone, de ne, those sorts of things. So if you really get
23:32
behind that language, it begins to activate a sense of
23:36
onomatopoeia, which is the word sounds like the thing that it
23:40
is. And all those final voice consonants that can be drawn out
23:43
actually give you some indication of what the character
23:47
is doing, which is essentially searching and trying to squeeze
23:51
every possible answer, because their answer list, they cannot
23:55
find the thing they're looking for. So I don't mean to get too
23:59
you know, dramatic or artsy with this whole thing, but actors
24:03
often rely on the words. It's not trying to master them all,
24:06
and it's a burden. No, those words are their tool, their
24:10
superpower, in many ways. Now, what the heck does that have to
24:14
do with public speaking? The same thing, which is, if you
24:17
have a script, first of all, do you have to learn a script?
24:21
Learn it physically and learn it with variety. Don't rehearse the
24:25
same way. Every time, don't rehearse the same way. Every
24:29
time, don't rehearse the same way. Every time don't rehearse
24:33
the same way. Every time you're memorizing vocal variety, you're
24:37
not memorizing the ideas. So move around in space, walk like
24:40
an elephant, slowly, big, swinging arms through the room,
24:44
saying the words and the next time, whisper it into your phone
24:48
like you're at a library, trying not to get scolded by the
24:52
librarian. So you're learning the ideas, but you're not
24:55
memorizing vocal. Variety also get to know the ideas in what
24:59
you're sharing, not just the words in the page. In fact, I
25:03
often suggest that people write out their scripts like a poem.
25:07
Make it look how the ideas make sense, not just how the word
25:10
processor has divvied it up on the page. That has nothing to do
25:14
with the ideas and the lines. It just has to do with how many
25:18
characters fit on a line of text. It's a big topic. It's a
25:22
worthwhile question you ask. But I also don't want to give you a
25:26
whole soap opera on this one question.
25:29
Adam Outland: No. I mean, it was great, and you've, you've split
25:31
up the little pieces of nuggets of wisdom really well. Michael,
25:36
I hate to even in this interview, because I feel like
25:38
we're just scratching the surface. There's like another
25:40
three hours in us. Where can everybody go to learn more about
25:44
your work?
25:45
Michael Chad Hoeppner: Sure, three simple places for the
25:47
book. It's just DontSayUm.com just the title of the book .com.
25:53
Don't say um.com, my company's name is GK training, and that's
25:58
the same URL. G K training.com and then you can find me on
26:02
LinkedIn. Michael Chad Hoeppner.
26:05
Adam Outland: Wonderful. Well, I will be looking at your
26:07
resources for sure, and I'm sure a lot of our listeners will be
26:11
as well. Thank you so much for joining us.
26:13
Michael Chad Hoeppner: Thank you for the interview, and thank you
26:15
for the really interesting questions. I know that can also
26:18
sound like lip service, like every guest is like, what a
26:21
great question. You're so smart. But really fun to get to answer.