Latest / WriterCon / Find What You Do Best with Lou Berney

Transcript

Find What You Do Best with Lou Berney · WriterCon

0:00
Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast.
0:02
Speaker 2: Find what you do the best and do that.
0:05
Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
0:08
Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Do
0:11
Speaker 1: you have a desire to write? Every successful writer started
0:14
Speaker 1: with their first book. All it takes is determination and knowledge,
0:18
Speaker 1: and writer Con can provide that knowledge. Your hosts are
0:21
Speaker 1: number one national best selling writer William Bernhardt, author of
0:25
Speaker 1: more than sixty books, including The Superman Wars, and Laura Bernhardt,
0:28
Speaker 1: Award winning author of The Wantlan File series and Shadow
0:32
Speaker 1: of the taj.
0:38
Speaker 3: Thank you, Jesse Ulrich. Hey there, writers, thanks for joining us. Now.
0:42
Speaker 3: If you listen to this podcast regularly, you knew I'd
0:45
Speaker 3: bring up my new book, The Superman Wars, But holy smokes,
0:51
Speaker 3: I've talked about this book more than anything I think
0:54
Speaker 3: I've talked about in my entire life. This is clear
0:57
Speaker 3: and this I've been in this business for thirty five yours. Remember,
1:00
Speaker 3: but this is by far the most extensive book tour
1:05
Speaker 3: I've ever been and if that's even the right word,
1:08
Speaker 3: because of course ninety percent of it sometimes I go places,
1:11
Speaker 3: but most of it I can do from home via
1:15
Speaker 3: the internet, like we're doing this podcast right now, which
1:18
Speaker 3: I have to say is a big improvement over flying
1:22
Speaker 3: to a new city every day and you know, doing
1:25
Speaker 3: some interviews and then going to a book signing and
1:28
Speaker 3: drumming your fingers for two hours. This is much better.
1:32
Speaker 3: And holy smokes, Jesse, did you see the Times Square billboard?
1:39
Speaker 3: I did.
1:40
Speaker 2: I saw, I saw you posting about it. That was amazing.
1:42
Speaker 3: There was a pause, there was saying, Oh, I wish
1:45
Speaker 3: i'd ask Lara she I know she's sign seen it because.
1:48
Speaker 4: I saw it. I saw it on the live camera
1:52
Speaker 4: that was aimed right at it, so I got to
1:53
Speaker 4: see it in real time as it was popping out.
1:57
Speaker 2: That's incredible.
1:59
Speaker 4: That was so exciting.
2:00
Speaker 3: Yes, that was pretty cool. Cool.
2:03
Speaker 1: I've been I've been very I've been very New York
2:05
Speaker 1: focused the last couple of weeks because my Knicks just
2:07
Speaker 1: won the championship. There's been a lot there's been a
2:10
Speaker 1: lot of New York photos I've been looking at.
2:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, are you reading for the USA now,
2:15
Speaker 3: because as we record this, they haven't played Belgium yet,
2:19
Speaker 3: I mean in the World Cup.
2:21
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, me and Elmo have the same sort of
2:23
Speaker 1: strategy for the World Cup. I don't know if you
2:26
Speaker 1: heard the Elmo controversy that happened. We might have even
2:29
Speaker 1: talked about it, but he had to. He had come
2:32
Speaker 1: up with a video saying that he loves everybody, but
2:34
Speaker 1: he's rooting for the US, wearing a little like US
2:36
Speaker 1: World Cup chures. He's like, does some make this the thing?
2:39
Speaker 1: Elma loves everybody, but Elma was to the US.
2:42
Speaker 3: It was very funny.
2:44
Speaker 4: Love everybody, I love everybody to have a good name,
2:47
Speaker 4: but I would like for US to win. Yes, exactly,
2:51
Speaker 4: almost philosophy.
2:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was good. After him was got run out
2:54
Speaker 2: of town. Yes, his head was on a spike.
3:00
Speaker 3: Superman is flying high, but I'm not kidding myself. You
3:04
Speaker 3: know it's the Man of Steel that's getting the interviews.
3:06
Speaker 3: But I am happy to go for the ride, especially
3:09
Speaker 3: since I spent about two years writing and researching that book.
3:12
Speaker 4: You really have been doing a lot of interviews, Like
3:15
Speaker 4: you're talking about how this is better than having to
3:18
Speaker 4: fly around. You've had some days where you had what
3:21
Speaker 4: four five interviews stacked throughout the day. This really allows
3:25
Speaker 4: you to reach a bigger audience. I think I've been
3:29
Speaker 4: really impressed. Lots of interest in this book. It's awesome.
3:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fun and flattering. Although the problem with that
3:36
Speaker 3: is that at some point, you know, interview three or four,
3:39
Speaker 3: I'm answering a question. I think now, have I already
3:42
Speaker 3: told that? Oh, Harry, I know I've said it today,
3:45
Speaker 3: but was it on this interview? Or you're oh no, Oh, well,
3:49
Speaker 3: it's a good problem to have.
3:51
Speaker 4: Yes.
3:52
Speaker 3: We're also about a month and a half away from
3:56
Speaker 3: our biggest event of the year, the annual writer Con
3:59
Speaker 3: conference in Oklahoma City over Labor Day weekends September fourth
4:03
Speaker 3: through seventh. Hey, there is still time to register and
4:07
Speaker 3: they plan plans to join us. We got over sixty
4:11
Speaker 3: speakers and a record number of literary agents, all of
4:15
Speaker 3: whom are taking pitches. So this is your chance to
4:20
Speaker 3: pitch your book and see what happens. We've also got authors,
4:23
Speaker 3: of course, and publishers you can talk to, and many
4:26
Speaker 3: others in the industry. We have actually streamlined the agent
4:30
Speaker 3: pitching process this year that I hope will make it
4:33
Speaker 3: more efficient and most importantly, make sure that everyone gets
4:38
Speaker 3: to talk with whoever they want to talk to. This
4:41
Speaker 3: is not one of those conferences where you get one
4:44
Speaker 3: minute to talk and then a bell rings and you
4:47
Speaker 3: know you have to move on before you feel like
4:49
Speaker 3: you've really gotten started. You can talk to anybody you want.
4:53
Speaker 3: If you miss someone, come tell me. I'll make sure
4:55
Speaker 3: it happens. And that's not just for agents, because we
4:58
Speaker 3: also offer private, private consultations with the other guests of
5:04
Speaker 3: your choice. And Lara's smiling face will be at the
5:07
Speaker 3: registration desk welcoming people. So here's your face. Here's your
5:12
Speaker 3: chance to see the face behind the voice you hear
5:15
Speaker 3: on the podcast every week. Lara, are you ready for this?
5:20
Speaker 3: You ready to do it all over again?
5:22
Speaker 4: Well, when you've said a month and a half from now,
5:25
Speaker 4: my heart stopped a little bit. So let's divide that up.
5:28
Speaker 4: Am I ready, Like, probably have a lot to do
5:34
Speaker 4: before then to be ready for it, But am I
5:37
Speaker 4: ready to see everybody? Am I excited for it? Yes?
5:41
Speaker 4: Absolutely look forward to this. I mean we start planning
5:44
Speaker 4: it the day after one ends, so it's a lot
5:48
Speaker 4: of work, a lot of time that culminates into this.
5:51
Speaker 4: But I love, love, love getting to see our writer
5:55
Speaker 4: con family every year, meeting new faces for our new
5:59
Speaker 4: people come and join in on the conference with us. Yeah,
6:04
Speaker 4: So in that regard, yes, I am so ready to
6:07
Speaker 4: see everyone and just recharge those writing batteries.
6:12
Speaker 3: I agree, and Jesse, you're going to be there too.
6:15
Speaker 3: You're recording all the sessions and people can listen to
6:18
Speaker 3: them afterwards, and doing about a dozen other things. We've
6:22
Speaker 3: got the live recording of this podcast and a new
6:26
Speaker 3: nighttime edition singo for people who want to relax and
6:30
Speaker 3: have a little fun. Jesse, looking forward to launching your
6:34
Speaker 3: career as a singo DJ.
6:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's gonna be fun.
6:38
Speaker 3: Listen.
6:39
Speaker 1: It's just another fun technical challenge I get to solve
6:41
Speaker 1: at writer cost to add it to the.
6:43
Speaker 3: List we count on you. Today, our interview is with
6:48
Speaker 3: another writer, Con Keynote Speaker or Friday Keynote and one
6:53
Speaker 3: of the top crime writers in the country and a
6:56
Speaker 3: good friend to writer Con lou Bernie Lou is the
7:00
Speaker 3: among other things, USA Today best selling author of seven novels, Crooks,
7:06
Speaker 3: Dark Ride, November Road, The Long and Far Away Gone,
7:09
Speaker 3: and others. He has won the get Ready for this.
7:13
Speaker 3: I like to say, you know, talk about the Edgar Award,
7:17
Speaker 3: but he's actually won the Edgar Award, the Hammett, the
7:21
Speaker 3: Steel Dagger, the Anthony, the Berry, and the Macavity Awards,
7:26
Speaker 3: all Major League Awards for crime fiction, and he's been
7:31
Speaker 3: a four time finalist for the La Times Book Prize.
7:35
Speaker 3: That's an extraordinary I would bet nobody else has the
7:39
Speaker 3: same resume as Lou Burne.
7:41
Speaker 1: Yes, but has he won the Elias Thorne Writing Award.
7:46
Speaker 3: Yes, Well, it depends on how much AI scraping has
7:50
Speaker 3: been done of his novels, and I bet there's been
7:52
Speaker 3: a lot. But he will never have Elias Thorne, the
7:57
Speaker 3: AI character we reported on last time, any of his books.
8:01
Speaker 3: I think we will talk to Lou about all that
8:04
Speaker 3: and more. But first the news first news story has
8:20
Speaker 3: to do with another strange lawsuit coming out of the
8:24
Speaker 3: world of books. A best selling memoirrist is suing as
8:29
Speaker 3: a former classmate who says she stole her life story.
8:34
Speaker 3: Amy Griffin is the author of a memoir titled The Tell,
8:38
Speaker 3: and she filed a lawsuit just last week as we
8:41
Speaker 3: record this, saying that a childhood classmate defamed her with
8:46
Speaker 3: the accusation that she, meaning Amy Griffin, had appropriated the
8:51
Speaker 3: classmate's own experience of sexual abuse and presented it as
8:57
Speaker 3: her own experience in the book. I probably need to
9:02
Speaker 3: explain that three times for you to said it is
9:06
Speaker 3: strange and twisted. But to give you some background, Ms
9:11
Speaker 3: Griffin is a billionaire and a philanthropist, and in the book,
9:15
Speaker 3: she describes sexual abuse at the hands of a school
9:19
Speaker 3: teacher when she was in middle school in Texas in
9:21
Speaker 3: the eighties, and says that her memories of this abuse
9:25
Speaker 3: were only recovered thirty years later while she was undergoing
9:30
Speaker 3: therapy using MDMA, which is you probably know is an
9:35
Speaker 3: illegal psychedelic drug. Her book became a bestseller, though it
9:41
Speaker 3: has since emerged that she received at least some help
9:44
Speaker 3: from a ghost writer. The former classmate classmate became aware
9:49
Speaker 3: of the tell after being contacted by reporters from The
9:54
Speaker 3: New York Times last summer, and the classmates spoke on
9:59
Speaker 3: the condition of anonymity. That's why I'm not saying her name,
10:02
Speaker 3: and the Times didn't either. But the classmate has said
10:05
Speaker 3: that parts of miss Griffin's book were strikingly similar to
10:10
Speaker 3: her own experiences of assault, and that they both attended
10:14
Speaker 3: the exact same middle school in the nineteen eighties. So
10:19
Speaker 3: the classmate last March filed a lawsuit in California that
10:24
Speaker 3: highlighted two episodes from the book. The assault that I
10:28
Speaker 3: already mentioned in a school bathroom, and another one at
10:31
Speaker 3: a middle school dance. The classmate said, no, that happened
10:35
Speaker 3: to her, and no, it's not that the teacher was
10:38
Speaker 3: going after everybody. But Miss Griffin presented her memories as
10:45
Speaker 3: Amy's own recovered memories. She said that she met miss
10:51
Speaker 3: Griffin at a California coffee shop a few years ago
10:55
Speaker 3: to discuss their childhoods, but prior to that they hadn't
11:00
Speaker 3: spoken together for thirty five years. Jesse, is it a
11:06
Speaker 3: weird world where people are fighting for custody of horrible
11:10
Speaker 3: assault claims?
11:12
Speaker 1: I mean, I get why the woman would be upset
11:14
Speaker 1: if someone else stole your trauma and then sold it.
11:18
Speaker 1: I would also love a play that's this woman who's
11:21
Speaker 1: being accused of stealing other people's stories and that woman
11:24
Speaker 1: who killed her husband and wrote a children's book about it.
11:27
Speaker 1: A conversation between those two.
11:31
Speaker 3: That could be folded into a really twisted Yeah, this
11:34
Speaker 3: could be a play right here, Whose story is it?
11:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I mean, this is one of those things.
11:40
Speaker 1: It's just it's it's ikey, and it's ikey. No matter
11:44
Speaker 1: what the actual truth of this story is, it's just bad.
11:49
Speaker 3: Yeah. That leads to another question, Laura, what is the
11:52
Speaker 3: appeal of a book or a memoir like this.
11:57
Speaker 4: I think that we all unfortunately kind of a grizzly
12:02
Speaker 4: fascination with train wrecks, you know, when there's rubbernecking at
12:07
Speaker 4: an accident on the freeway. I think part of it
12:11
Speaker 4: is it's hard to look away, and part of it
12:13
Speaker 4: is we're thinking, I'm really glad this didn't happen to me.
12:17
Speaker 4: But this it brought to mind my Dark Vanessa, which
12:22
Speaker 4: I read a number of years ago and enjoyed, and
12:25
Speaker 4: I think people were kind of asking the same thing.
12:28
Speaker 4: I mean, it is it's a dark book. It's right
12:30
Speaker 4: there in the title. But at the same time, it
12:34
Speaker 4: was really well written, and it's almost a cautionary tale.
12:40
Speaker 4: Maybe well, I think maybe we can look at it
12:43
Speaker 4: that way as well.
12:44
Speaker 3: I looked at the pleadings for the Classmates lawsuit from March.
12:50
Speaker 3: I think what she is basically alleging is that, you know,
12:55
Speaker 3: the woman, missus Griffin, wanted to write a book and
12:57
Speaker 3: now she's a billionaire. But she was trying to say
13:00
Speaker 3: life wasn't always easy for me, although probably easier than
13:07
Speaker 3: for some people. But the point was, you know, I
13:10
Speaker 3: had these horrible things happened to me back then, but
13:12
Speaker 3: I rose above it and became a billionaire. And you know,
13:18
Speaker 3: the classmate, just classmates felt like that was unearned, and
13:21
Speaker 3: so it's calling her out. News Story number two, A
13:27
Speaker 3: new company may be coming for your backlist, or if
13:32
Speaker 3: I'm reading this correctly, if I understand the story, I
13:35
Speaker 3: think you'll wish they came for your backlist. The company
13:40
Speaker 3: is Primary Wave Music, which is at least originally a
13:44
Speaker 3: music publisher that tries to acquire the catalogs of artists
13:49
Speaker 3: and then market them. They have acquired Stevie Nicks, they've
13:53
Speaker 3: acquired Prince, and they've partnered with an entrepreneur named Richard
13:58
Speaker 3: Hurrowitz now for a new venture to buy the rights
14:02
Speaker 3: to authors backlists, basically buying your old books. The concept
14:07
Speaker 3: being that you know they'll buy this, and then they'll
14:11
Speaker 3: uncover new revenue by presenting older titles to the book
14:16
Speaker 3: talk generation gen Z people who might like it but
14:20
Speaker 3: don't know about it yet, and get this. Primary Wave
14:24
Speaker 3: has put in one hundred million bucks to kick off
14:30
Speaker 3: this endeavor. Yeah, Horwitz said, any writer could sell more
14:34
Speaker 3: books than they do right now, no matter how successful
14:37
Speaker 3: they are, which I'm sure is true. So he said
14:41
Speaker 3: they're going after everything. They're pursuing titles of literary fiction,
14:45
Speaker 3: science fiction, mystery, narrative, nonfiction. Does he know about the
14:50
Speaker 3: Superman Wars? But I'll move on children's books, plays, and
14:54
Speaker 3: a lot of private equity investors, you know, are paying
14:59
Speaker 3: attention because he's not the first to do something like
15:02
Speaker 3: this with music. A private equity investor just picked up
15:06
Speaker 3: all the riots to Bruce Springsteen's catalog, and he's got
15:11
Speaker 3: more money than he could probably spend for the rest
15:13
Speaker 3: of his life now. Tina Turner, John Ligend, they've all
15:17
Speaker 3: done the same thing. The idea is that these companies
15:20
Speaker 3: will capitalize on the nostalgia you know, and streaming playlists
15:26
Speaker 3: like at Spotify, and increase the value with other things,
15:31
Speaker 3: maybe a biographical film or a Netflix biography ad placements.
15:36
Speaker 3: He says, books aren't that different from music, and there's
15:40
Speaker 3: a huge library of titles that are being underutilized right now. Jesse,
15:47
Speaker 3: you think they're right. Can book libraries be as profitable
15:50
Speaker 3: as music libraries?
15:53
Speaker 1: I mean, one would think they should, just because books
15:58
Speaker 1: are books are a harder endeavor than songs, Like I
16:05
Speaker 1: would say, I would I guess I compare a book
16:06
Speaker 1: to an album, right, and those things should be worth
16:13
Speaker 1: equal amounts to me, You like, if someone wanted to
16:16
Speaker 1: buy like all of Stephen King's library, it should be
16:19
Speaker 1: about the amount that Bruce Springsteen's library goes for.
16:24
Speaker 3: So yeah, Laura, would you sell these guys your backlist?
16:31
Speaker 4: Well, they haven't asked yet.
16:33
Speaker 3: It depends on the prize, is that what?
16:35
Speaker 4: Probably? But also I have to say, with this getting
16:39
Speaker 4: out there and becoming an I feel like this is
16:41
Speaker 4: going to be soon, if not already, a new scam
16:45
Speaker 4: that we have to watch out for. So that probably
16:48
Speaker 4: would be the biggest factor for me. Even if I
16:51
Speaker 4: was legitimately being approached by someone for this, I would
16:55
Speaker 4: probably be very skeptical and not believe them. I just
17:00
Speaker 4: this week had what looked like a very legitimate email
17:05
Speaker 4: coming from someone who purported to be an editor with
17:09
Speaker 4: Saint Martin's Press, and the second I saw it, I
17:14
Speaker 4: knew it was a scam, no matter how legitimate it looked.
17:17
Speaker 4: And it actually made me kind of sad because what
17:20
Speaker 4: was written in it was so complimentary of my work,
17:24
Speaker 4: and the whole time I was reading it, I thought,
17:26
Speaker 4: this is all bogus. All made up, all AI generated,
17:31
Speaker 4: But there was still that little bit of me that
17:33
Speaker 4: was like, Oh, it feels so good to have someone
17:36
Speaker 4: recognize and compliment your work. But it was fake. But
17:39
Speaker 4: it was fake. So I would say that would be
17:41
Speaker 4: great if somebody was able to take advantage of this,
17:44
Speaker 4: but again, always use caution, sure, And how much?
17:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, how much? How much would somebody turn?
17:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, like if what would the amount be bill for someone,
17:58
Speaker 1: if someone if one of these firms or whatever, what
18:01
Speaker 1: would the offer need to be for them to have
18:04
Speaker 1: control of your library of many, many, many, many books?
18:08
Speaker 3: You know, it would have to be a lot. And
18:10
Speaker 3: that's not because I think my work is so fantastically valuable.
18:15
Speaker 3: I just think it's mine, you know. And if they're
18:19
Speaker 3: going to take sixty seven books to date and I
18:23
Speaker 3: no longer have any control or get any profits from them,
18:27
Speaker 3: they're going to have to pay me pretty darn well, agreed,
18:32
Speaker 3: Kraft corner.
18:37
Speaker 2: Craft Corner.
18:39
Speaker 5: Hi, my name is Tyler Linz.
18:41
Speaker 6: I'm the author of Texas Accelerated and Non Player Character,
18:46
Speaker 6: and I'll be hosting two sessions at the Writer's Con.
18:50
Speaker 6: One is on the DARPNG progression and PISCAI. These are
18:56
Speaker 6: genres that were once niche but have sense exploded in popularity,
19:01
Speaker 6: especially in the last few years. And so what is
19:05
Speaker 6: lit RPG progression? And isakai? You ask, what even are
19:09
Speaker 6: those words? I'm saying that's a very good question, and
19:13
Speaker 6: I'll answer it in detail at the conference, but for now,
19:16
Speaker 6: I can.
19:16
Speaker 5: Give you a brief overview.
19:19
Speaker 6: In short, lit RPG is the gamification of storytelling. So
19:25
Speaker 6: this is a system exists in whatever world you create,
19:30
Speaker 6: and this system creates a rule set on how magic operates,
19:35
Speaker 6: how physics works, how life works, and pretty much anything. Typically,
19:41
Speaker 6: you level up in a lit RPG and you increase
19:44
Speaker 6: in your strength as the story progresses, and this leads
19:49
Speaker 6: me to progression. As you might be able to guess,
19:52
Speaker 6: all lit RPG is progression, but not all progression is
19:57
Speaker 6: lit RPG. Progress can have then beyond a system of rules.
20:01
Speaker 6: For example, like a wizard can learn new spells by
20:04
Speaker 6: reading books or training. This is just a natural way
20:08
Speaker 6: to progress. There's no system of rules in place or
20:11
Speaker 6: stance that the wizard needs. It doesn't have to level
20:14
Speaker 6: up and select new skills like in lit RPG.
20:18
Speaker 5: It's complicated.
20:19
Speaker 6: I know it'll all make sense if you come into
20:23
Speaker 6: my session. Lastly, there's isakai, and this is.
20:26
Speaker 5: A Japanese word for another world. This is a.
20:30
Speaker 6: Genre where a character is transported somehow, some way into
20:34
Speaker 6: another world or reality. These usually involves fantasy settings or
20:42
Speaker 6: game like features or alternate realities. Many lit RPG or
20:46
Speaker 6: progression novels are isakai, but isakai doesn't necessarily have to
20:50
Speaker 6: include progression elements.
20:53
Speaker 5: It can be just a tool to kickstart your story,
20:56
Speaker 5: or it can stand on its own. Think like Alice
20:59
Speaker 5: in Wonderland. That's a sakai. If none of this makes sense,
21:03
Speaker 5: we'll clear it up at my sessions at the Writer Conference.
21:07
Speaker 5: I'll also be.
21:08
Speaker 6: Hosting a session on serialized fiction, and I can tell
21:12
Speaker 6: you how to build an audience one chapter at a time.
21:16
Speaker 6: I'll show you how you can monetize this and how
21:19
Speaker 6: you can leverage that audience into a book deal. Serialized
21:24
Speaker 6: fiction works especially well with litt RPG and progression, which
21:28
Speaker 6: is kind of what I'm talking about both, and I'll
21:31
Speaker 6: show you how to maximize your success.
21:34
Speaker 5: But it can also work with.
21:36
Speaker 6: Romance, romanticy and some other genres, and we'll dive deep
21:39
Speaker 6: into those and where.
21:40
Speaker 5: The best platforms are to do it.
21:42
Speaker 6: So I hope to see you a writers con thinks.
21:46
Speaker 3: All right, now let's talk to Lou Bernie. Lou Bernie,
21:56
Speaker 3: welcome to the podcast.
21:58
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.
22:01
Speaker 3: Well, you saw this coming a mile away. I think
22:04
Speaker 3: here's the first question. If you could offer writers one
22:07
Speaker 3: piece of advice, what would it be.
22:11
Speaker 7: That's a great question and a tough question, but I
22:14
Speaker 7: would probably say it is to find what you do
22:18
Speaker 7: the best and do that, and try not to do
22:22
Speaker 7: what other people do well, like focus on what you're
22:25
Speaker 7: great at and do that. That's took me years and
22:28
Speaker 7: years and years to learn that.
22:30
Speaker 4: That's really terrific advice, really good, perhaps applicable even beyond writing.
22:35
Speaker 4: I think that's just some solid life advice.
22:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, yeah, a good point. Okay, let's talk more
22:41
Speaker 3: about you, Lou. I have heard you say or read
22:44
Speaker 3: you say that you were fired nine times as a
22:48
Speaker 3: youth before you found your track. What was that all about.
22:53
Speaker 7: I'm not sure it was nine times. There was probably
22:55
Speaker 7: a lot more than that. I probably rounded down, but yeah,
22:59
Speaker 7: I was. I mean it's one of those kind of things.
23:01
Speaker 7: As a kid, I was, I was lazy and unmotivated
23:05
Speaker 7: and corrupt and disingenuous and many many negative qualities. But
23:11
Speaker 7: then once I found that I love to write, I
23:13
Speaker 7: discovered here's something I really can throw myself into. And
23:17
Speaker 7: it's one of the great gifts I've had in my
23:18
Speaker 7: life is having something that I'm truly passionate about, that
23:22
Speaker 7: I truly love. And I think if you're if you're
23:25
Speaker 7: given that gift, you have to you have to stick
23:27
Speaker 7: with it no matter what. And that's kind of another
23:30
Speaker 7: piece of advice I would give writers, like, if this
23:32
Speaker 7: is what you love to do, you know, then then
23:35
Speaker 7: that's what you should be doing.
23:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense to me too. Okay, now I'm
23:41
Speaker 3: piecing things together. First, you just mentioned that you should
23:45
Speaker 3: do what you do best, and I personally think you
23:49
Speaker 3: could write any kind of thing you wanted to. So
23:52
Speaker 3: why crime.
23:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good one.
23:55
Speaker 7: I mean, I've kind of, you know, I've done everything
23:57
Speaker 7: I would start out as a literary fiction writer, and
24:00
Speaker 7: then I've worked in Hollywood.
24:01
Speaker 2: I'm a screenwriter. I write for TV. But crime fiction
24:05
Speaker 2: for me is resonates.
24:07
Speaker 7: I think because it's such a big tent, there's so
24:11
Speaker 7: much possibility, you can do so many different things, And
24:14
Speaker 7: I think as a writer, I'm kind of antsy, like
24:18
Speaker 7: I don't like to write the same book twice, and
24:20
Speaker 7: so like I'm always looking for ways to sort of
24:22
Speaker 7: sort of expand my own interest and imagination, and crime
24:26
Speaker 7: fiction allows you to do that but still stay within,
24:29
Speaker 7: you know, a genre, stay on the same shelf as
24:32
Speaker 7: a bookstore, which is always good for an audience and
24:34
Speaker 7: for readers. And it's also just a genre I really
24:38
Speaker 7: love to read because there's so much variety in it.
24:40
Speaker 7: So for me, it's it's a really good fit. And
24:43
Speaker 7: I think that's with every writer. You gotta find where
24:45
Speaker 7: your where your fit is, Like what what is it?
24:47
Speaker 7: You know, maybe you do want to write the exact
24:50
Speaker 7: same thing, and there's nothing wrong with that at all.
24:53
Speaker 7: If it's if it's right for you, then it's it's
24:55
Speaker 7: it's what you should be doing.
24:59
Speaker 4: More good at fun. Tell us about your most recent book.
25:03
Speaker 8: Crooks Crooks was the book that I that it came
25:07
Speaker 8: out last year, that for me was one of the
25:10
Speaker 8: greatest all time pleasures of writing, Like I'm writing for
25:13
Speaker 8: me is not always a pleasant or pleasurable endeavor at all.
25:17
Speaker 7: There's times when I just have to grind it out
25:19
Speaker 7: and sort of feel like I've you know, read Badge
25:22
Speaker 7: of Courage, kind of coming out of the trenches at
25:23
Speaker 7: the end, you know, covered in blood and with crooks.
25:26
Speaker 7: For some reason, I just really loved writing it, and
25:28
Speaker 7: I think it's because the characters just really popped out.
25:31
Speaker 7: It's about a family and they're raised to be criminals. Essentially,
25:34
Speaker 7: they're raised to be well what the euphemism is in
25:37
Speaker 7: their family's outlaws, you know, or scoundrels pirates, but they're
25:41
Speaker 7: really just crooks. And then I kind of like chart
25:45
Speaker 7: each sibling's path in life and how they deal with
25:49
Speaker 7: that legacy of being raised a certain way. And for
25:52
Speaker 7: some reason, I just like fell in love with each
25:54
Speaker 7: of those four main characters. And it's one of the
25:57
Speaker 7: It's just one of those things that you keep writing
25:59
Speaker 7: in the hopes of that'll happen to you, and for
26:02
Speaker 7: me it was. It was just a great experience and
26:04
Speaker 7: and luckily it came out, you know, it came out
26:06
Speaker 7: the way I wanted it to come out.
26:08
Speaker 4: Yeah, that sounds that sounds like an ideal situation. Actually,
26:14
Speaker 4: I have to ask are you a are you a
26:16
Speaker 4: true crime fan? Do you enjoy watching or listening or
26:20
Speaker 4: reading true crime as well.
26:22
Speaker 2: I do a little bit of that.
26:24
Speaker 7: But that's a that's a really great question, because there
26:26
Speaker 7: is this really kind of stark division between true crime
26:29
Speaker 7: and fictional crime fiction.
26:31
Speaker 2: There's there's definitely overlap.
26:32
Speaker 7: But for me, I tend to like reading fictional crime
26:36
Speaker 7: more than following true crime. And I'm not sure why
26:38
Speaker 7: that is exactly, except that maybe I'm a little squeamish
26:41
Speaker 7: and I like to have that sort of that distance
26:44
Speaker 7: between me and the subject that I don't really love
26:48
Speaker 7: to read something that I know happens. But on the
26:51
Speaker 7: other hand, I do a ton of research that's based,
26:53
Speaker 7: you know, that's true crime based. I wrote a book
26:55
Speaker 7: that was, you know, set in Oklahoma City, and that
26:57
Speaker 7: kind of was inspired by the Steakhouse Murder. So I
27:00
Speaker 7: learned a lot about that, which was really harrowing. But
27:04
Speaker 7: at the same time, when I'm reading, I tend to
27:06
Speaker 7: prefer fiction, or when I'm watching TV, I tend to
27:09
Speaker 7: like that.
27:10
Speaker 4: I can understand that because in the back of your
27:13
Speaker 4: mind you can always be thinking this is not real,
27:17
Speaker 4: this is made up. With the true crime, it can
27:19
Speaker 4: be pretty overwhelming.
27:21
Speaker 7: In true crime, there's just something about it that it's
27:23
Speaker 7: just like there's a darkness to it. No matter how
27:26
Speaker 7: dark fiction gets, there's, at least in the kind of
27:28
Speaker 7: fiction that I love, there's a glimmer of light, and
27:30
Speaker 7: sometimes there's just not a glimmer of light and true rhymes.
27:34
Speaker 4: Well said, Well, you teach writing now in an MFA program, right.
27:41
Speaker 2: Well, I did until last year.
27:43
Speaker 7: I taught at Okoam City University for about twelve years
27:47
Speaker 7: ten eleven twelve years in the MFA program there, and
27:50
Speaker 7: I just left recently because I'm writing for a TV
27:53
Speaker 7: show called The Low Down with Ethan Hawk on FX
27:56
Speaker 7: that shoots in Tulsa, and so I couldn't really balance.
27:59
Speaker 7: I couldn't balance both of those jobs, so I kind
28:02
Speaker 7: of went with the TV show. But I love teaching,
28:04
Speaker 7: and that's a rough problem to have. Yeah, uh, I
28:10
Speaker 7: do love teaching, and I've taught in one form or
28:12
Speaker 7: another for thirty years. So it's one of those kind
28:14
Speaker 7: of things that's really like has enriched me as a writer.
28:18
Speaker 2: Teaching writing wonderful.
28:20
Speaker 4: One of my sisters was an extra in The Lowdown.
28:24
Speaker 2: I hope she didn't get killed or shot or.
28:28
Speaker 4: If she survived the experience.
28:31
Speaker 2: Well, I can't.
28:32
Speaker 7: I can't share I can share at this point that
28:33
Speaker 7: I'm hopefully, if I make the cut, I'm going to
28:35
Speaker 7: have a small part in season two of The Lowdown
28:38
Speaker 7: that I got.
28:39
Speaker 2: I got.
28:40
Speaker 7: I badgered the showrunner so long that he's like, all right,
28:43
Speaker 7: you can be in it. So I actually have a
28:45
Speaker 7: three word line unless I get cut.
28:47
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would do that too if I had the
28:49
Speaker 4: opportunity to figure it.
28:50
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not.
28:51
Speaker 4: Leaving unless I'm in the show.
28:54
Speaker 2: I know, right, yeah, exactly.
28:57
Speaker 4: So what is your typical writing day look like? And
29:01
Speaker 4: maybe you could tell us what it looks like now
29:04
Speaker 4: compared to maybe what it looked like in the past.
29:09
Speaker 4: I suspect it's a little different at the moment it's writing, yeah, television.
29:15
Speaker 7: Yeah, during the TV writing, it's completely different. But generally
29:19
Speaker 7: my routine has been the same for thirty some years,
29:22
Speaker 7: which is that I get a couple of two three
29:25
Speaker 7: hours done in the morning, I eat lunch, and take
29:27
Speaker 7: a nap. I'm a big nap or I'm a big
29:29
Speaker 7: fan and believer in the therapeutic value of naps, and
29:34
Speaker 7: then I write for two or three hours in the afternoon.
29:36
Speaker 7: So like I'm very much a creature of habit and
29:39
Speaker 7: I like to go to the same place, the same
29:42
Speaker 7: spot and sort of start in the same way every day.
29:45
Speaker 7: So it's different for everyone, and I think everyone should
29:48
Speaker 7: find their own routine that works for them.
29:51
Speaker 2: And I really resist anyone.
29:55
Speaker 7: Who says this is the way you have to do it,
29:58
Speaker 7: because I feel like everyone's an individual and you need
30:00
Speaker 7: to find what's your routine, what works best for you.
30:03
Speaker 7: And that's a trial and error that took me a
30:05
Speaker 7: while to figure out. But that's what works best for me.
30:07
Speaker 4: That's great, and it's great that you can do it.
30:09
Speaker 4: Everyone's situation is different exactly, probably having to squeeze that
30:14
Speaker 4: writing time in in a different way.
30:18
Speaker 7: Yeah, I feel very grateful that I'm not like you know, Faulkner,
30:21
Speaker 7: who had to write, you know, on by hand on
30:24
Speaker 7: the boiler where he was the you know, in charge
30:26
Speaker 7: of the base in the basement of University Mississippi or
30:29
Speaker 7: whatever it was. I feel incredibly lucky that I can,
30:32
Speaker 7: I can sustain that that routine.
30:34
Speaker 4: Have you I'm hopping back. I'm just so excited about
30:37
Speaker 4: the lowdown I Have you been able to be on.
30:40
Speaker 2: Set a lot? Yeah? I was on set.
30:43
Speaker 4: What is that like?
30:45
Speaker 7: It's it's both fascinating and tedious. I would say, like there,
30:49
Speaker 7: it's both, you know, like the most boring thing you've
30:51
Speaker 7: ever experienced, But then it's also incredibly fascinating to see
30:56
Speaker 7: all these different craft crafts people doing jobs that are
31:01
Speaker 7: you know, highly difficult to do and highly difficult to
31:06
Speaker 7: do well, and they're doing it well and it all
31:08
Speaker 7: comes together to make something that really you know, works
31:11
Speaker 7: as a story.
31:12
Speaker 2: And as a TV show.
31:13
Speaker 7: And so that to me is like it's been incredibly
31:17
Speaker 7: It's been an incredibly eye opening and experience and I'm
31:21
Speaker 7: very grateful for it.
31:22
Speaker 4: Very fun.
31:24
Speaker 2: Okay, and the and the food is the food is
31:27
Speaker 2: good too. I was just saying, there's always a good food,
31:30
Speaker 2: good food on.
31:30
Speaker 7: See Bradley's then in charge of it. Shout out to Bradley,
31:35
Speaker 7: who's a great great uh a great chef.
31:39
Speaker 3: As I was saying, you have reached the lightning round,
31:42
Speaker 3: which I'm not even sure what we call that. It's
31:44
Speaker 3: not that fast. It should probably be more like the
31:47
Speaker 3: silly round or something like that.
31:49
Speaker 7: I'm going to be terrible at this, Bill, I'm telling
31:51
Speaker 7: you now, because I'm just bad at thinking fast.
31:53
Speaker 2: So just prepare for a disaster.
31:56
Speaker 3: You know, the thing that I think always held me
31:59
Speaker 3: back when people did stuff like this on me in interviews,
32:02
Speaker 3: which I hated, which is exactly why I'm not doing
32:05
Speaker 3: it to you, because I always try and come up
32:11
Speaker 3: like an accurate answer. But that's not really what they want.
32:14
Speaker 3: They want you to be silly. But that's just not
32:16
Speaker 3: the way my brain goes, and you go the way
32:19
Speaker 3: your brain goes. Okay, So what writer would you most
32:25
Speaker 3: like to sit down and have dinner with? Living or dead? Oh?
32:30
Speaker 7: Okay, living or dead? I would say either Jane Austen
32:35
Speaker 7: or Mark Twain.
32:38
Speaker 3: They would be different experiences.
32:40
Speaker 2: Maybe together the three of us, that's better. Even better.
32:44
Speaker 4: Mark Twain would be such a riot.
32:47
Speaker 7: Jane Austin would be funny. I think Jane Austin be
32:49
Speaker 7: hilarious too, so y, I love her.
32:52
Speaker 3: It should be a different kind of funny, but she'd
32:54
Speaker 3: be funny, all right. Next question, if you were And
32:58
Speaker 3: I don't think I've ever asked this one before, but
33:01
Speaker 3: you seem like somebody who might be thinking about getting
33:04
Speaker 3: a tattoo, So I'll just ask, if you were getting
33:07
Speaker 3: a tattoo, what line from a book would you ink?
33:12
Speaker 2: Oh, that's terrible, that's horrible. Okay, that's a really good question.
33:17
Speaker 2: Uh and okay, no, no, no.
33:22
Speaker 7: I will say when the first thing that popped to
33:24
Speaker 7: mind is one of my favorite books is No Country
33:27
Speaker 7: for Old Men, No All the Pretty Horses by Cormatt McCarthy,
33:31
Speaker 7: And there's a line where the abuela, the grandmother, is
33:34
Speaker 7: talking to the protagonist and she says that sweet scars
33:39
Speaker 7: remind us that the past is true. And I've always
33:43
Speaker 7: loved that line. Is scars remind us the past is real.
33:47
Speaker 7: So that's that's I kind of like that.
33:50
Speaker 3: Yes, and it seems appropriate when you're basically kind of
33:53
Speaker 3: creating a scar.
33:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's why I popped to mind, exactly.
33:58
Speaker 3: That's perfect. All right, here's a tough one. What's a
34:02
Speaker 3: book you.
34:03
Speaker 2: This is a tough one, Like we're just getting to
34:06
Speaker 2: the tough ones. Appreciate that.
34:08
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, what's what book do you wish you had written?
34:17
Speaker 2: Oh?
34:18
Speaker 7: Man, it's hard to say, because, like, I think every
34:22
Speaker 7: book was written by the right person who wrote it
34:24
Speaker 7: that I love. So yeah, I will say, like one
34:30
Speaker 7: of the books that like, I don't know if I
34:33
Speaker 7: wish I'd written it, but the one of the books
34:34
Speaker 7: that like stays in my heart, in my head more
34:37
Speaker 7: than any other. Is Their Eyes Were Watching God by
34:40
Speaker 7: Zorneel Hurston. And I'm not sure I can explain it,
34:43
Speaker 7: but maybe that's what makes it such a powerful.
34:45
Speaker 2: Kind of book for me.
34:46
Speaker 7: Is it just feels like, in some ways like that's
34:48
Speaker 7: what fiction is meant to be.
34:51
Speaker 4: That's so good. I've read that more than once.
34:54
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's one of those kind of books that just
34:56
Speaker 7: rewards rereading, I think absolutely.
34:59
Speaker 3: Okay, one more of these. What is your most memorable
35:03
Speaker 3: writing related experience?
35:08
Speaker 2: Okay, that one's easy. This is an easy one. I
35:10
Speaker 2: will say this.
35:11
Speaker 7: In twenty eighteen, I had the opportunity because I had
35:15
Speaker 7: a book coming out from HarperCollins at the time, and
35:18
Speaker 7: I got to throw out the first pitch at Yankee
35:20
Speaker 7: Stadium before a game, and that was I'm a lifelong
35:24
Speaker 7: Yankee fan. I was a baseball player in high school,
35:27
Speaker 7: and to be on that mound and to throw a
35:31
Speaker 7: pitch to a catcher with thirty thousand people staring at
35:34
Speaker 7: me was the most terrifying, wonderful experience of my life.
35:39
Speaker 7: Or one of them, I would say, want. I want
35:41
Speaker 7: to make sure I leave room for anything involving my wife,
35:44
Speaker 7: but right, because she's pretty terrifying. That's my writing writing
35:49
Speaker 7: related How did.
35:51
Speaker 4: That come about?
35:52
Speaker 7: The Yankees have the program because it's New York, you know,
35:54
Speaker 7: publishing they have with this program where three or four
35:57
Speaker 7: times a summer they have a writer throughout the first
35:59
Speaker 7: pick and if it's a book coming out, you know
36:03
Speaker 7: that's got smitation. You know, they go to that kind
36:06
Speaker 7: of that that direction. And so I just looked out
36:10
Speaker 7: is the short answer, and it was a great experience.
36:13
Speaker 4: Awesome. Is there anything that books don't make better?
36:21
Speaker 2: Exactly?
36:22
Speaker 3: Write that down? We should have that on pencils and stuff.
36:26
Speaker 7: I think, I think, writer Cohn, I think, I think,
36:29
Speaker 7: I think your fast which I'm going to be the
36:31
Speaker 7: keynote speaker, I want to point out I'm very excited
36:35
Speaker 7: about that. I've done it before, and that's one of
36:37
Speaker 7: the highlights of my writing life is getting to work
36:39
Speaker 7: with writers in a.
36:41
Speaker 2: Situation like that. It's just I mean, it's so enriching.
36:44
Speaker 7: I come out of those conferences with so much energy
36:47
Speaker 7: and so much excitement. You know, it's just like it's
36:50
Speaker 7: it's the greatest It's like a two week vacation in
36:53
Speaker 7: Hawaii for a writer.
36:54
Speaker 2: To come to. Yeah, I love that. I forgot what
37:00
Speaker 2: I was gonna say. Oh no, I think we should
37:03
Speaker 2: work with something out.
37:05
Speaker 7: We need writer, we need a first pitch, and we
37:07
Speaker 7: need to get together with the comments and one of the.
37:11
Speaker 2: Writers needs to throw on a first pitch at a
37:13
Speaker 2: comments game.
37:13
Speaker 3: I think, really that would be okay, let's think about that.
37:18
Speaker 3: That could be cool.
37:21
Speaker 2: Bill loves. When I start starts giving advice on the conference.
37:24
Speaker 7: I will say I got a month and a half
37:27
Speaker 7: and give like a million dollars to everybody who comes.
37:30
Speaker 2: I think we should do that.
37:32
Speaker 5: You get it?
37:34
Speaker 3: Maybe not, But the true part is that lou Bernie
37:37
Speaker 3: really will be their keynoting and doing some other stuff too.
37:42
Speaker 7: So yeah, I get to do a craft Yeah, I
37:44
Speaker 7: get to do a craft workshop, which I'm really excited about.
37:47
Speaker 2: I love those.
37:48
Speaker 4: Yeah.
37:48
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah three day at three day that would be
37:52
Speaker 3: long three hour dive workshop on Monday. That's right. All right, Well,
37:58
Speaker 3: thank you very much for talking to us today, and
38:02
Speaker 3: needless say we're looking forward to seeing you at writer Con.
38:05
Speaker 7: It's such a pleasure and I'm looking forward to thank
38:07
Speaker 7: you going to you guys so much for this.
38:09
Speaker 2: I'm really sure appreciate it.
38:21
Speaker 3: Just a few parting words. As I may have mentioned already,
38:25
Speaker 3: writer con, our annual writers' conference is September fourth through seventh,
38:29
Speaker 3: Oklahoma City, Scurvin Hilton. It is not too late to register,
38:34
Speaker 3: so come join us. Learn what you need to know
38:37
Speaker 3: to take your writing career to the next level. And
38:41
Speaker 3: while you're here, meet some great people and have a
38:43
Speaker 3: lot of fun. Ura and I'll be there Jesse and
38:47
Speaker 3: a whole lot of all equally cool people, because everybody
38:51
Speaker 3: is cool at writer Con and we have a lot
38:54
Speaker 3: of fun too. Let me also remind you that writer
38:57
Speaker 3: Con has its own newsletter. I just wrote a new
39:00
Speaker 3: episode new issue this morning, so it's still happening, and
39:05
Speaker 3: it's on substack and it's completely free. Just go there
39:09
Speaker 3: and search for writer Con so you don't miss There
39:12
Speaker 3: are articles in every issues, plus news about new agents,
39:16
Speaker 3: new publishers, contests, and whatever else is going on in
39:20
Speaker 3: the world. So check that out on substack. And if
39:23
Speaker 3: you haven't joined the writer Con Facebook group, now is
39:27
Speaker 3: the time to do it. Join it today. Join this
39:30
Speaker 3: wonderful community so that you know what is happening in
39:34
Speaker 3: the book world when it happens. Easy to find us
39:38
Speaker 3: on Facebook just search for writer Con but I'll also
39:40
Speaker 3: put a link in the show notes. Okay, until next time,
39:45
Speaker 3: keep writing and remember it cannot fail if you refuse
39:50
Speaker 3: to quit. See you next time.