Latest / Pink Shade: Reality TV with Mary Payne / 1082 - Interview with the Producer and Director of The Cult of The Real Housewife

Transcript

1082 - Interview with the Producer and Director of The Cult of The Real Housewife · Pink Shade: Reality TV with Mary Payne

• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to Pink Shade. You guys, this is
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: a bonus episode. I'm so excited that I'm going to
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: talk to the producer and the director of the Cult
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: of the Real Housewife. You guys know this documentary is
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: a three part series airing on TLC starting January. First,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: you can binge all three I did you guys. It's
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: really really good. It crosses what we're all interested in.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: We all love TLC like it's our beating heart, but
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: of course we also love.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Bravo and we also love Mary Cosby.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: So this documentary was very eye opening, very well done.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: So thank you very much to Julian and Denise for
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: joining me to discuss Now, Julian, you're the director and producer.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: And Denise you're the executive producer.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and not joining us as Ellie. She's the
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: other director.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: She is your partner, Julian that does these documentaries with you,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: and she's not here, but you're here to represent.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: I am thank having you.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: And by the way, love your accent. Love wherever you are,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: I'm very jealous. It looks better than where I am.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: Palermo, Sicily is where I am. I know White lotus,
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: come on.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Really, Oh my gosh, Italy is on our bucket list
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: to go in twenty twenty six, and we have a
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: family friend that's having their child's wedding in Italy.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: So we're just going to like make a whole time
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: best excuse excuse, like we have to go.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: We have to know some tips. I'm happy to provide them.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, I would like all the tips. I would like
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: all the tips. I'd like to stay in that house.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: It's gorgeous. So first of all, if you guys are
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: watching a video, then you understand what I'm saying. So
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: thank you guys for being here. I'm excited to chat
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: about this documentary. When I saw that TLC was doing this,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: it warmed my heart because I'm a huge TLC fan.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: I cover all most of their shows, but I'm also
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: a giant Bravo fan, and over the years, Mary Cosby
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: this documentary sort of reminds.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: Some of us Bravo fans what we.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Forgot about, right the first couple of seasons where you're
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: like this is interesting and everybody questioning it. But now
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Mary is so light and bright and airy and breezy
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: and funny. We're like, huh, forget it. She wants a cult.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: It's fine, nobody look over there, right.
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't know.
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: I actually don't watch the show, so okay, all of
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: my information is hearsay, Internet chatter, all of the like.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, So that was my first question. Do either of
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: you watch any of the Housewives? Are you familiar?
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: Oh? Absolutely familiar, and watched all of Housewives of Salt
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: Lake City just as as a matter of research and
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: getting up to speed with the arc. But but I
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: was not at Bravo call. Let's put it that way.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: I was.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was looking out for Mary Gosby every.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: Quell and by the way, I should just say, way
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: up from tallows ellie me, Denise. We have no beef
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: with the Real Housewives. It's obviously beloved by many. It's
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: a gigantic television franchise, which we love. We love TV,
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: we love you know. All film is focused on the
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: Mary Cosby and the Bishop of it all.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, the bishop is the interesting part to me.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: That's what I came away with. So how did this
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: come to your radar for you to think like, you know,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: we've seen a Ginshaw documentary, We've seen you know, one
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: about probably Teresa Judice. There's lots of housewives over the
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: years that and most recently Windy Spho that have done
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: things illegally and people are always like, nobody's talking about
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: this perhaps cult. So how did this come to you?
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I'll speak so a couple of years ago,
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: and once again, we weren't watching the Housewives franchise when
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: it first aired. But Yanne Rowntree, whose incredible journalist who's
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: also featured in our docu series, released an article with
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: The Daily Beast, right, I think it was after season
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: one that was too many, the first I think set
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: of allegations around Mary Cosby and this cult like allegations.
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: And so this article came to Julian and Ellie, who
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: then shared it with me and they were like, have
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: you read this?
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: Have you seen you know? Do you watch the show?
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: And I immediately read this and was like, I have
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: no idea who this woman is.
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: I don't watch this show.
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: However, what Chyenne did in her initial reporting was pretty
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: groundbreaking and fascinating, and as a fan of just documentaries,
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: my first words were like, if this was a documentary,
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: I would eat this up because I no idea who
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: this woman is. But this is a fascinating, I think
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: approach to you know, hearing so many of the initial
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: victims stories and what was really going on. And that's
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: kind of what initially sent us on this journey because
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: then we you know, started contacting Cheyenne and doing our
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: initial research. But I think her article really was that foundation.
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: Would you say so, Julian.
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: Completely yep, her article for Dailybes. She's now a reporter
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: at Rolling Stone, So Cheyenne was central to this. She
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: was the foundation of the work. We then cast more people,
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: talked to, more people, expanded, but the initial remit was
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: her core reporting. I also find it interesting though, after
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: reading that, I went and going back to watch season one,
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: and this is the phenomenon a lot of documentaries that
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: we make at Tallos, is that the churn on this
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: was happening online during season one. It was people after
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: the tape was released saying that Mary was shaking down
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: a congregation of berating them for not giving enough money.
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: That then you get the chatter began to go wait
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: a minute, sounds a little cultish. And having directed and
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: produced before House of Hammer on Arnie Armie Hammer, that
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: started online as well. So the initial question actually was
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: self generated, and then of course it merged into the
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: series and Andy Cohen asked at the end of season
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: one directly to Mary Cosby, are you running a cult?
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: And then in season two it emerged as a storyline.
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: So actually we didn't pose the question is you know,
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: is Mary Cosby running a cult? That was posed organically
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: within the series itself. We just decided to investigate further
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: and talk to the people who would never talked to
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: during that when that question was raised. Was actually siblings,
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: you know, fellow family members, congregation members. No one ever
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: went out and talked to them. That's what Cheyenne started,
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: and then that's what we accelerated in the documentary.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: And the social media part is interesting because in the
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: documentary there are a lot of kind of quick quick
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: cuts of this person on TikTok, this person I saw
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: lots of people that I knew. I was like, Oh,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: my goodness, there's my friend. There's my friend, there's my friend.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: All these content creators and up in Adam is someone
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: I know as well, and he was featured heavily, and
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: I completely had forgotten that Adam went and interviewed Mary's mom.
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an amazing. We exok the piece of that
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: in the film. It's the most and she unfortunately passed
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: away earlier this year, so that's an important piece of
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: archive in the film to get her perspective.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: It really, it really that to me was fascinating because
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: and also the story that Mary told this season and
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: what's in the documentary is sort of it all somewhere
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: in there is the truth, right, but what is it?
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: Well? And that's when I think the docuseries kind of
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: posts the question once you devour it, whether you're a
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: Housewives fan or a non Housewives and don't know anything
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: about this story, I think through the investigative research and
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: all of the all of the different participants and sharing
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: their sides of the story, I think that is the
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: question that we pose, right, which is like, what is
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: the truth there? Other than just presenting the facts as
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: we know it through our everyone else's experience. And I
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: think it was really important for us to include the
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: bloggers and the influencers and the people on the internet
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: because in so many ways, to Julian's point, they were
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: also uncovering the story in real time as well, and
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: so it felt like if we were going to help
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: draw out the timeline of events and incorporate any clips
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: and things around the housewives, you know, people like yourselves.
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: You guys do such a good.
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: Job in this S fandom world of being able to
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: speak on this and being able to have reached out
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: to participants like Adam having interviewed her mother right, Like,
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: it was like, how could we not include them as
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: part of this larger narrative as we're you know, taking
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: everyone's accounts into this. And I think that that's something
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: really unique in this docu series that I don't find
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: a lot of people do you normally in a documentary
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: that it was it was.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: It's the world we live in, right, So it's it's
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: it's relatable and familiar. As you're watching it, you're like, oh,
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: I may have seen that. I know who that person is.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: I remember three years ago when this person said that.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: But because our world is so fast, like like I said,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: a lot of it I had forgotten and I devour this.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: I mean it literally is not not like my job.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: It is my job, and so I it's so much
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: of it I had forgotten. So I was glad that
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: the documentary sort of reminded me. Season one, Season two,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: and how when Robert Sr. Which is what we call
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: him because there is a Robert Jr. Robert Senior came
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: on the reunion. It was so combative and nasty and
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: she was it to me, came across a little father
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: daughter ish not.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: And so there's there's it's interesting.
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: That's the right intersection. Dare I say with with with
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: Mary's mom, which is unpacked in episode two, which is
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: you know, this is a story that goes back generations
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: and dozens and dozens of years, so you have to
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: dial back into nineteen ninety seven and nineteen ninety eight
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: when Mama, the founder of Faith Temple, passed away and
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: the inheritance was up and air. Now, normally you would
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: assume it might go to her eldest daughter, which is
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: Mary's mom, and in the shakeup at the church, instead,
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: what Harriet happened is this is well known of course,
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: is that Mary married her step grandfather, right, and so
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: the line of secession was turned in a different direction.
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: And without giving away a lot of information that's in
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: the film, we really dived deep into what happened in
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: that moment and the breakup of the church, which was
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: a very beloved Pentecostal church. Mama was an icon in
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: Salt Lake City, did all these great things, and then
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: it became something very different once Mary and Robert c
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: Year took over. And that's that's kind of episode two
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: unpacks that I think a lot of people may view
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: and think, Oh, this cool thing just happened when Real
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: Housewives came on, or a couple of years before. Yeah,
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: much more complex and interesting and I think compelling story
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: than that one thousand percent.
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: And I also feel like people in some ways when
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: the trailer dropped were concerned that this docuseries is just
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: retreading information you might have already seen or that.
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: People have already talked about.
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: And you know, one thing I'm most proud of is
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: to join this point the second episode where we also
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: talk about the origin story of this church and what
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: Mama came in and built in the late nineteen sixties
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: and so much of that to understand Mary and a
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: lot of these allegations. It felt so important to us
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: to be able to pull back and say, Okay, well
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: where did this all start? And I think you have
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: to have a full picture understanding of this family, of
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: this church and how things were and then what they
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: became eventually under their leadership, and that to us was
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: very important because that part, I think doesn't feel like
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: it's ever really been out there. I think people have
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: found clips of Mama preaching and whatnot. But her story
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: was very important to our participants as well, who really
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: wanted to shine a light on just how beloved, you know,
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: Rosemary Cosby was to all of them.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: That that was something I did not know. I didn't
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: quite understand the journey of how the church was created
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: and how blood she still is and the people that
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: still talk about her, and how sort of Robert came
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: in and with Mary they sort of like ruined it.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: Before it had been this loving, inclusive place. And then
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Robert and Mary would get up on the pulpit and
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: sort of break people. And it was interesting too with
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Adam's interview with Mary's mom saying that, you know, Mary
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: here was a victim. Now, many other people in the
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: show didn't agree with that. They said, no, she was
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: like this from the jump. She was materialistic. She was
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: always trying to go from one guy to the next,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: the one that could provide. So we've seen, you know,
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of it's sort of like
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: up to the viewer to decide, right, And it's also
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: kind of up to the viewer to decide, like are
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: you just going to accept this like fun like Mary
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: that's on our screen, or are you going to look back?
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: Or And if you guys don't watch a lot of housewives,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: you don't know a lot of times they call housewives
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: shows lily pads because people go on to jump off
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: to something else, mostly leaving their husbands. Usually usually it's
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: like you can see on TV they have this terrible
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: spouse and they leave them. Now, if this is in
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: fact what happened with Mary and Robert, then we hope
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: for her that she does leave him. The church has
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: not been active for years.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: She says that it was just rebooted in the last month,
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: right after Bravo com So the latest episodes have the
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: reopening of Faith Temple, which we didn't look at that,
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: you know, yeah.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: But yeah, well it was pasted.
• 13:49
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's interesting to see, like will we I don't know,
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: it's interesting that she rebooted it because it seems to
• 13:57
  Speaker 5: me the best idea would have been to shut it
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: down and let those members go with some other congregations,
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: you know, I mean, I mean.
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: To your point, I think it's a really it's important
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: to say that that not even what they've Yeah, people will,
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: by the way, just to talk about Adam for one moment,
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: to give him a lot of props. He is a
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: huge fan of the Housewise.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: Fred Oh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, bread and butter,
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: that's what he is. I met him at Ravo con
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: so yes, and he.
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: Chose when he witnessed this because it wasn't just Mary's mother.
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: He also interviewed on his on his show, Dan Cosby,
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: you know who's a big part of our film. So yes,
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: he went. He decided to become a Gumshoe detective because
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: in his opinion, something was suspicious, something was off here,
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: and he was one of the early people, just like Cheyenne,
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: to really begin to dig into the story, which was
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: kind of everyone felt was in the rear view mirror.
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: But one thing we say about this is in people's lives,
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: they don't work like reality TV. So just because a
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: character may evolve on a reality TV show doesn't mean
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: that the damage that had been done to these people
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: who are part of this church isn't long lasting and
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: that they still don't suffer and have grievances against being
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: within this, so we're just giving them that platform. They
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: haven't had that platform before. And of course it's up
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: to the viewers to decide what they think about Mary,
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: what they think about cult allegations. Again, we didn't make
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: the cult allegation that came up organically within the show.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: But I think I'll say this, for people who are
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: die hard fans, I encourage them to watch the show
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: because they may have a change of heart, you know.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: And at the same time, I encourage people who aren't
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: fans of the Real Housewife franchise to come and watch,
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: you know, the Cult behind the Real Housewife because it's
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: actually a case study of how a cult might be created, right,
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: It's kind of like a textbook example. That's why we
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: have our expert talking to that. So I think that
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: it's it's you know, I think a lot of the
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: fans will turn up and watch because there's a curiosity
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: point there. But I think, you know, these days, people one,
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: you know, people want to hear about colts, they want
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: to hear how they operate. So I think it's built
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: for both audiences.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: The the cult expert was great because he was explaining
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: and I've covered a lot of documentaries about cults as well,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: but I think that you know the power, the sex,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: the control, the financial right. And so when you look
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: at this and granted this may be on a small scale,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: you know, it's not a wild wild country, it's not
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: the Rajishes, it's not like a large sale cult, but
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: it is on a small.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Scale a little bit of a cult.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: And them talking about being locked in and you don't
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: get to leave until you donate or you know. The
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: guy I think it was Ernest said that he was
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: there that day with the famous I only got fourteen
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: birthday cards, and he was like, mine was one of
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: the fourteen, and I gave her a thousand dollars. So
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: you're thinking, I'm just thinking growing up going to my
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Methodist church, and what world am I giving my minister
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: a birthday card? Much less one thousand dollars? Like what
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: I'd be like given my five dollars in the offering?
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Like it's wild to me. And this is kind of
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: what I want to talk to you guys about. How
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: do you think that Robert and Mary have explained their lavish,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: very like luxury six homes everything designer lifestyle in a
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: church of people that are just very middle class, regular people.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: How was that explained?
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: Well, to be honest, we don't know. Because we asked
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: Mary to an ambishop Robertsenia to be part of the
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: film and to answer some of the allegations and they
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: chose not to, which is their right. So it puts
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: us in a position where we can't speak to their motivation.
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: We can illustrate what people have experienced firsthand. And it
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: should be said that that was done journalistically, so everything
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: the show is double fact checked. There were some things
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: that was said in the documentary that didn't make the
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: final cup because we couldn't verify it. So honestly, I
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: would love to know an explanation from Robert Senior or Mary,
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: but that is not part of wall film.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting when you see on the show, probably
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: the first season, maybe the second season, when you went
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: to her house and she did have people working in
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: the house, that seemed to be like, this was my cousin,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: this is my sister in law, and it's like ordering
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: people around in her home, bringing me this, do this,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: And I was like, that's your sister in law, that's
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: your cousin, and you're speaking to them. And there's a
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: cousin that appears on the show quite a bit, who's
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: a contractor who was helping with this remodel of the church,
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: and he just calls her ma'am. Yes, ma'am uh huh.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: I was like, this is like your first cousin you
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: grew up with and you're calling her ma'am. It's very
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: it is very called like and very strange. And I
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: did really like how you included her sister in the documentary.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: That was fascinating. When the sister appeared on the screen,
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: It's like Mary Counsey's sister. I was like, whoa, We've
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: never seen her before. She had a lot to say,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: she had a lot to.
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: Denise, Well, Denise, I know we shared the same name,
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: which was which was fun now, but Denise was was
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: was I think such such a powerful story for us
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: because obviously she was able to speak to so much
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: about the Mary's childhood and growing up together and again
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: the origin story of what it used to be. But
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: but I think with all of our participants, the most
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: interesting thing is that a lot of them were still
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: very active in the church even after Mary and Robert
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: took over in their leadership. And and did not actually
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: leave until right before COVID, right before Mary joined the Housewives,
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: And so they had this really intricate, deep understanding and
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: knowledge of just around all of the cult like allegations
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: that they themselves said, I felt like I was in
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: a cult, right, And so I think that was to
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: us very powerful to get their accounts because they had
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: been a part of this up.
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: Until so recently.
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: And yet her sister is just you know, it's your sister,
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: someone who is represumably was close at one point.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this type of indoctrination goes beyond faith. This is
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: people who felt like and Denise articulates this like she
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: was going to write in Internal Hell if she left
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: the church. The indoctor nation at a level such an
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: extreme level that people could not imagine leaving. Their entire
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: worldview was being framed through Bishop and Mary and getting
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: out wasn't an option. And we're talking about people here.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: So you have the Eenarchs, which is Rosy, and you
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: have Ernest Nark and you have Michael Enoch. Their relationship
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: that church goes back to their father joining in the
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: nineteen seventies and heading up the choir. These are people
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: who obviously Denise is Mary's sister. So these are people
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: who are deeply interconnected and people who still have family
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: members in the church. So it's you know, one, but
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: I think it's Michael says or Ernest. Mary divides, so
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: they die families, they divide, siblings, they divide. In the
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: case in all film when you see Dan Cosby and
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: his wife, that marriage is nearly ripped apart. And this
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: is either you're in and you're all in and your
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: true believer, or else any doubt, any questioning, You're out,
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: You're banished.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: It's very uh, you know, just another famous cult scientology.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: You know, you think it's very similar when you and
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: it's very nexium. It's very similar. It's like if you
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: and your spouse are in, that's great, but they're going
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: to get try to get you to.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Turn on each other.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: And then this is you know, brings up the cult
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: aspect of you know, power, sex, financials, and we hear
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: a lot of allegations about Robert kind of maybe trying
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: to coerce his grandson's wife to sort of constantly be
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: at his house and testing her. Do you want to
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: go with me to Vegas? And all these things, and
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: you're like, what do we do here? This is so
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: much this is your grandson's wife. And the fact that
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: Denise kept calling Robertson and your gramps just killed me.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: It just killed me. Yeah, she kept because she was because.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: That's how she knows him as gramps. And you're like,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: but it's married to your sister. It takes a little
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: bit to draw. And you guys did a great job
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: by the way, on the documentary of like the flow
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: chart of who was.
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: Oh, I mean, you had to at some point the
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: family tree because there's you know, so many of them,
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: and and and in some ways because they all grew
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: up together, they are like a family, right, Oh yes,
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: against the family members and the non family members. They
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: were a very tight knit group. And so I think
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: in order to just kind of understand the landscape, yeah,
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: we had to do the family tree and the chart
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: just to be able to really to to allow yours
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: to understand who was speaking into what regard right, So
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: that way you understood exactly where they fell within.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: It was helped a larger content. It was helpful.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: So, Okay, another issue on the on the show on
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: the Real Housewives, she has said or maybe she said
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: it on an interview, but she said when she first
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: married Robert, she kind of didn't want to didn't want
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: to do it, but you know, Mama had said they
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: had to, which is in dispute in the documentary. People
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: say that never happened, but she said, you know, when
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: she first married him, she did not want to have
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: sex with him, and she would sort of high from
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: him or say she was having your period and things
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: to kind of avoid it. Now, eventually they obviously did.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: They had a son, and in the interviews on the show,
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: they give off a very father daughter vibe. But did
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: you get from the interviews you did? Do you get
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: the feeling that we have on the show now they
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: live completely separate lives. She's at home with the son
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: and he's off to one of their homes, Like, what
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: is he still preaching in the church.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: Honestly, that's another thing that we don't know because of them.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: You know, the people we're talking to are the people
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: who have left and they're out of the inner circle,
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: you know, so they don't actually know what's going on
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: in that mansion up on the hill per se. And
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: you know, again, I'll leave it up to view is
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: to decide whether they think Mary's telling the whole story
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: there or not.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Right, both of them, Robert and Mary, the Bishop, Mary,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Who's did they come up with this plan together that
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Mama said, But Mama died suddenly.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: So and then I do know from listening to a.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Podcast that I love the Bravo docket that says that
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: there was that Mary's mom did want to have Mama
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: exhumed at one point to see if Robert had murdered her. Like,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: it's just so so many layers.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: I mean, you have you have Sam in the film.
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: He no longer goes by Cosby, but he was. He
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: was Mama's adopted son. I mean. The one thing he
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: says that may give you a clue, and again this
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: is his opinion, right, He says, Mary's kink is money,
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: mm hmm, yeah, And I think that's probably followed the
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: money has a lot to do behind a lot of
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: colts is also a con and I think follow the
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: money is an important part of the story. So some
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: people in our films say that it was a it
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: was a it was a marriage of convenience, you know,
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: and that's.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: Fine, that's not the first person in the world to
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: do that, But they sweep under this was Mary before,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: and you know, the.
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: People in our church went with that for a good
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: many of them up into the last few years. They
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: went on that on that train for a long long time,
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: and they thought that's what was ordained, and the legacy
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: of the church is going to continue through Mary. A
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: bishop already was part of the legacy. It was, so,
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: you know, just to break down simply, Episode one looks
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: at the allegations in the first two seasons of Real Housewives,
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: and then it tells you the story you haven't heard
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: behind those things that were very buzzy at the time.
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: Episode two, as Denise laid out, rolls you back and
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: tells you the origin story Mama, the passing of Mama,
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: and how Bishop and Mary took control of the church
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: right then. Episode three looks at the years from nineteen
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: ninety eight up until the premiere of Housewives where the
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: church allegedly descend ended into a far different cultish organization
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: and it kept escalating. And so that's just so people
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: know when they tune in, that's that's kind of how
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: the arc is going to play out.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: I was wanting a fourth episode. I was like, oh,
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: there's more, but.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: I don't know you. And by the way, if Mary
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: and Robert want to speak, the door's always open for
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: that conversation to happen.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: Let me ask you this.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: They showed a couple of scenes that were kind of
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: known on the show, which is one scene where Mary
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: goes over to Whitney's house and her children are there
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: because they're coming to make cookies or do something. And
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: Mary comes in and she's telling a story. This person
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: in my congregation was killed. She was ejected out of
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: her son roof and she rolled down the ditch and
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: she's telling this awful story. And you see Whitney and
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: her two young children going, oh my gosh, oh my goodness,
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: this is terrible. And the kids are like, oh my god,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: this is the girl. Okay, and she goes, no, she died,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: and she goes, wear your seat belt. Now, what they
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: didn't show on the documentary which was on the show,
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: which like two seconds later, And of course it could
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: be edited. She could have said this ten minutes later,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: but the way it shows on the show is she
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: says wear your seat belt, and then she goes, whoo,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: I'm here, let's make some cookies, like all in the
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: same and you're like Wait, what was heartbreaking on the
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: documentary is the family of this girl that she's referring
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: to that got ejected out of a son roof and died.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: A young mother very known, very known to Mary.
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: Not a stranger who names Michel Mikel.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: But Mikel and the father and the aunt who would
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: raise her all very very close with Mary. So Mary
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: is not telling this crazy story about Wow, I read
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: this on the news. She's telling a story about someone
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: she knew very well, so callously, and that was shocking.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: And I'm really glad that that was in the documentary
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: to see the family of that girl. To be like
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: this girl was like a punchline and people thought it
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: was funny. But this was our family member, This was
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: a mother, This was a young girl in the church
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: who loved to marry.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: I think that was shocked.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: Be one of the most affecting, uh pathos written, sad,
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: disturbing pieces of the film. That story, and it goes
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: further with with Michel's father, Michael. You know, it was
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: a big part of the film. He asserts alleges that
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: then there was a disruption by Mary of the go
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: fund meet Boushy. Michael had two young kids who that
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: need to be taken care of. And so it even
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: went further than say and inappropriate gaff or maybe that
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: was edited on the TV show to look that way.
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: It was much more thought through and punitive to that family.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: And and and why you know, yeah, well.
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: And and I think Amery pay what was important to
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: us too is once again, I think on a show
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: like The Housewives, it is reality TV, they're not always
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: going to, I think, show the whole narrative, and that
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: is sal skew to Mary, right. And so I think
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: it was so at least for the Enochs and how
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: real and tragic this event was for them, It was
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: so important to allow them to tell their side of
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: the story to that clip that everyone has seen on
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: The Housewives. Fig yet there is a young girl whose
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: life was tragically cut short, and this family was very
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: devastated by her comments and what she said and how
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: she portrayed it, and they felt portrayed. And I think
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: for a lot of them, you know, you can talk about,
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: at least as at the time as members of the church,
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: how that made them feel. And I think it was
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: really really important to allow Michael and and Rozzie to like,
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: tell their side of the story of that impact and
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: how that impacted them. And because you don't get that
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: on The Housewives, you don't see I don't even think
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: they mentioned Mikel's name.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: You have no idea around.
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: The truth of this tragedy and how that impacted the church.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: I did like that.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: There were a lot of things that we've seen on
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: the show again that I've kind of forgotten about. You know,
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: the berating text that she sent to Whitney and Whitney's
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: reading them. I kind of like, oh, my gosh, she's
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: talking about how I look and this, that and the other.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: And we've saw her many times on the show just
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: flat out tell Heather she was fat, or tell her
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: she looked inbread. Just like very blunt, very very cruel,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: mean things to say to people, and it's sort of like, well,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: she's whimsical.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: There are be times on the show and people said,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: do you want to come and sit with us? She's
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: like no, or why are you wearing?
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: That?
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Just mean and it's sort of kind of the Laura
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: that she's funny and quirky. But it was interesting to
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: have these real life church members say, oh, that's nothing
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: and it's funny when it's on TV, but when it's
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: directed at you, and this is somebody that is the
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: leader of your church coming at you this way that
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: you respect, And the story of the elderly woman that
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: died in anyone that works in her home and how
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: awful they treated her. And that girl's name was Susie,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: and she was saying the way she treated my sister,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: you know, and I didn't get to and I didn't
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: get to go to the funeral because they had kicked
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: me out of the church because I was I spoke up.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: There's just a lot of story, the guys.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: If you are thinking, like I don't know if I'm
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: going to watch this, there are so many stories there,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: some that you see on the show that sort of
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: play into it, which I liked as a as a
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Bravo viewer to kind of get the backstory, and some
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: of them like that is kind of quirky and funny
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: the way she is, But also if you're on the
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: receiving end of it, it's pretty terrible and devastating, especially
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: if it's a person in a position of power. And
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: that is sort of what your cult expert talks about
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: a lot the what cult leaders do, right, they bring
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: you up, they pull you down, you know, they pull
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: you in and they badger you, and then do you
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: feel like you can't live without them for some reason.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: Of course, no cult leader ever says, hey, I'm a
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: cult leader, So I'm right. That's the point. You need
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: to look at it from the outside. You need to
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: break out of the bubble and the and the interesting
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: thing is is for some of these members who we
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: talked to until Housewives aired well one, they were outraged
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: by her behavior on the show. Some said that she was,
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: you know, hiding in plain sight by some of the
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: behavior traits you're talking about that they had witnessed in
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: even more extreme forms firsthand. But I also think for
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: some of them they did not realize the wealth that
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: had been amassed by Bishop and Mary, and the opulence
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: and the and the display of that opulence. They just
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: were slack jawed. You know.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: You see that house and all the luxury items and
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: the thousands of handbags, and she's and she's just bragging, saying,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to get an apartment to use as
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: my closets.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: I have so many things. She's living in a little.
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: And she's a preacher, you know, and that's odd.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: You know, it's odd, and you didn't see Mama behaving
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: that way from what I can understand.
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, gosh. Yeah.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Now on this note, are you guys worried that, you know,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: Mary fans, which of there are many and bravo fans
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: coming after you were saying like you didn't tell the
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: whole story. And again, like you've said over and over,
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: you reached out to them and it says it right
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: there in the documentary, you reach out to them many times.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: To have them tell the side of the story.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Are you sort of are you worried about any sort
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: of backlash on this or you feel you've told.
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: I mean, personally, I'm not, mainly because I think we
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: did our job to the best of our ability to.
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: I think uphold the stories of these victims and their truths,
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: and what matters to what matters to us most is
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: that we can't invalidate how they feel and what their
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: experience was. And all we did was really shine a
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: light and uphold and allow them a platform to share
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: their experiences and their trauma and their pain is very real.
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: And you know, we did want to and would've liked
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: to include Mary and Robert's accounts of these things, but
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: we weren't able to, and so therefore all we're doing
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: here is showing the other side as far as these
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: these church members and these family members who have not
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: really been able to have a chance to speak on
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: their behalf.
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: And that's really what our.
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: Focus was here, and I think we did that job
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: really well, and I'd like to think that they would
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: also be proud to be able to have this opportunity,
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: because at the end of the day, we're also not
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: definitively saying one way or another if is Mary a victim?
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: Is Mary of Dylan, And at the end of the day,
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: no one can really speak the whole truth. And I
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: think any fans and anyone who feels like we're not
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: sharing everything that there is, you know, would have to
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: pose a larger question. Well, then you know who is
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: the truth teller? There is not one person other than
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: I think Mary and Robert who would be able to
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: really encapsulate everything here, and so all we're doing is
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: really bringing the other side to a narrative that a
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: lot of people really don't know and allowing that to
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: be out there and let the series speak for itself.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: It's really really good. And I noticed, you know a
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: lot of the work you guys have done. You've done
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: the House of Hammer and Queen of Meth and all this,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, you know, you think Army Hammer in
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: that family that's wild and then the Queen of Math.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Of course tom Arnold's sister who ran this meth business.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: And you've done so many different things like this. How
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: does this compare as far as unsavory creatures that you
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: run across in your business? How does this compare?
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: Oh boy, I don't have a talis ranking of unsavory creatures,
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: and I wouldn't. I mean, I think listen with for
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: people who've seen Queen of Math, which is about Tom
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: Onold's sister, who is one of the one of the
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: largest math dealers in the Midwest of the nineteen eighties.
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: That's interesting because she was manufactured and sold drugs and
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: that and paid the price and went to jail for
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: many years for that. And there's no way you can
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: put a smiley face on drug dealing, but you can
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: put a context to who she was as a human
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: being and how she arrived at that point, which is
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: very different from some of these other people who I
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: think you're dealing with people in power people. You know,
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: when you're talking about Queen of Matth is a woman
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: who is completely disempowered because she was in a roust belt,
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: de industrialized Midwest town. All opportunities were shut down and
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: drug dealing was her path. It's not the right path.
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: But then we hear people who have tremendous wealth, tremendous power,
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: tremendous media exposure, and I enjoy giving people enjoy. I
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: feel proud to give people a platform to speak their
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: truth to that power system. And so I suppose that's
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: a common theme with House and Hammer in this one
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: and another one we did, which was how to create
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: a sex scandal that look at kind of satanic panic
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: in a small town and the malibility of the mind.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: And that's what's interesting about colts too, is we could
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: all end up in one because the mind is malleable
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: and emotions can be pulled, and it's behaviorism. You know,
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: if you have a rubber band and you snap it
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: every day when you spoke a cigarette're going to star smoking.
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: But that's the classic study and coercive control. Mary and
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: Bishop was snapping a lot of other bands to other ends. Right,
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: they're punishing people to get something out of them. Right,
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: So these mind control, the playbook of mind control, the
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: playbook of colts is universal. Who would have thought it
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: might have cropped up on the Real Housewives? I mean
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: that's odd.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, listen our Housewives. They give to us, they
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: give us the storylines, and this one was, you know,
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: as you pointed out in the documentary, you know, like,
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: who would have thought?
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: And again Mary says on the thing, why would I
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: come on here if I was a cult leader.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Now we've had many.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Bravo lobs that said, why would I come on here
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: if I was committing financial paul?
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: Well they do, and then they go to jail.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: And you're like, why would I come on here if
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: I was defrauding old people? Well you did, and then
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: now you're in jail, you know. So I don't know
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: if it's an attention thing or it's a narcissistic thing.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: I'm never going to get caught. Well, I just want
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: to thank you guys so much because the documentary was
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: perfection well done. I watched it once and my daughter
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: wanted to watch it with me, and I said, well,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to take notes, so I'm gonna have
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: to be pausing.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: Quite a bit. And she said, well, will you watch
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: it again with me?
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: I said yes, so we're gonna watch it again a
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: second time where.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: I don't have to take notes.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: Wow, yes, yes, she's twenty two. I was going to
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: say yeah.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: I was like, she loves it and she thinks Mary
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: Cosby is funny, and so I said, but she, you know,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: she understands. And I said, well, I think you're going
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: to really find this interesting and as somebody her age,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: with the quick cuts that you have in there, with
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: all the social media things that we've seen over the years,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: I think that will be very appealing for her age
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: range as well. And I got to tell you, when
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: I was watching it, I like took a little picture
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: a couple of times and send it to some friends.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: I go, you're appearing in this documentary and they're like,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: oh my gosh, exciting, you.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: Know, exciting.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, thank you guys, so much, so much. Mary Payne.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: Tell everybody where they can find the documentary, give us
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: the US.
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: So The Cult of the Real Housewives premieres on t
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: LC on January first, eight pm. It's three. It's a
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: three hour event that is its premiere, and the following
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: day it streams on HBO Max and Discovery Plus.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I say, I say watch it at eight pm.
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: That's what I say. Absolutely very.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. What else are you on January first? Nothing?
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: What I mean, on the couch hangover?
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: Possibly, but possibly yes, But but we're really excited and
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: you know, we worked Everyone who was a part of
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: the show worked so hard on it, and I, for one,
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: Bill can't wait to be on the internet threads and
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: they hear all the chatter that that people have to say.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: It's going to be It's going to be interesting. All right,
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: Thank you guys, don't hang up. Thank you very much.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: Thanks most