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🌎How Culture Shapes Money: A Ukrainian Perspective · Money Healing Club Podcast

Welcome to the Money Healing Club podcast.
I'm your host, Rachel Duncan.
I'm a financial therapist and art therapist, and you've come to the softest place to land in personal finance.
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For help with your particular situation, please seek help from a licensed professional in mental health, taxes, and finance.
Here, we talk about all the things we don't usually say when we talk about money.
Let's begin.
All right, today's episode, we are going to explore how different cultures impact how we look at money, maybe.
And the expert guest I have for you, I'm so delighted to introduce my husband, Alex.
And the reason I'm bringing him in is not only because He's been a major part of my money story and my money growth, but he is from the country of Ukraine.
And I think talking about some of these similarities and differences about how we grew up with money and how we approach money in our marriage might be useful for some listeners.
So welcome to the podcast, Alex.
Thank you.
Good to be here.
I want to ask you something that I often ask my clients, Which is just tell me an early money memory.
okay.
I do have memories of using money as a kid.
When I grew up, it was considered okay to send kids, you know, to walk, to buy some things in the grocery store.
And usually it's like, you know, little money, like change stuff, but you were trusted with it.
Like I would go to, to get some, you know.
get some milk or get some fruits and stuff like that, especially if it's like an unplanned, kind of like a short, quick thing to do.
I also remember that money is, was, is considered scarce.
I was born in USSR, but like, uh, Ukraine became independent when I was 10 years old.
So even in that time, people did not make a lot of money and every single equivalent of cent counted.
So everyone had this mindset like money is scarce.
We have to be saving it.
We have to be spending wisely and not be frivolous with our expenses and only do necessary things.
So I think that mindset is still to big extent prevails and remains in for many people in Ukraine.
Maybe just the newer generation starts to go away with it as young people get better jobs or are able to work abroad and stuff like that and they see like other aspects and how money is treated in other cultures and so on.
I want to ask you a little more about being a kid and running little errands and going to the shop by yourself, like what about that memory sticks with you? It was a responsibility.
I think it was some, Like a thing a kid would be proud of doing because you get to be almost like a grown up for, for, for these like errands and it was a glimpse of independence you could get as an adult.
And, uh, I think sometimes, uh, I was given a choice, like, okay, if you have change, you can buy whatever you like, and then, you know, I would go and look for some things which I wanted as a kid, and I would buy.
Did you have an allowance? Did you have your own money to spend? Um, I did not have an allowance, um, but I think from things like that, I would get some money to spend, or like maybe for birthday presents, like sometimes you would get money from your grandma or something like that.
One thing I've learned about, well about you and Ukrainian culture, it's a, it's a, It's big on cash gifts, even like adult to adult in a way that felt a little different for me growing up in the States.
I mean, yes, there's, you know, pretty common for maybe like grandparents to give money, but, something I've learned about you is sort of how open it is to give cash to each other.
I haven't thought about it that much.
I mean, we still have the same concept that a thoughtful gift is, you know, appreciated and it's a sign that you actually thought about it and you know that person very well or you studied what they like.
So it's sort of a sign of a good friendship if you are able to do like an insightful, useful, nice gift.
Yeah, I guess cash gifts are fine too, because oftentimes you don't know.
And I think maybe the other part of it is, at least in my childhood, there was no culture of returning stuff if it's not something you wanted to buy.
So it would be hard to return.
So therefore it's much safer to just give a person a cash present, uh, instead of buying something they don't like and they cannot return.
It's true.
I, I've learned the hard way on several of our trips to Ukraine that returning something it is, it's still really not done.
It's very interesting.
It's just a different, different system, different, uh, business practices.
Yeah.
It sort of fosters that sense of commitment.
You got to commit, like if you're buying it, you're buying it.
Like there's no backseas.
So interesting.
And I think the economy in Ukraine has changed a lot.
Like the availability of credit and debt is different than when you were growing up.
Yes.
Although I would say debt, is still considered like a very, undesirable thing.
Like it's a, maybe a necessary evil, like if we're talking about like mortgages or car purchases and stuff like that.
I just had another thought is like looking back, although maybe I did it at the time too.
Like if we're talking about other memories is even in that moment of scarcity, I do appreciate like how my parents managed to get me some expensive, uh, toys or things, like a calculator or a computer or like some expensive toy set and, uh, well granted I'm the only son, but still, like, uh, I think it was pretty admirable that they managed to do this and sort of, invested, I guess in their mind it was like investing in me, in my growth or and, uh, think it was a good example, like even if you Have a, like a scarcity, you could sort of manage by reallocating things, you could still make it work if you, if you really value something.
And even in like a multi generational way, giving kids, like your early experiences with computers, set you up for a career with computers.
I mean, little did they know.
Yeah.
Right.
And I think that's another thing you and I really align on because my parents also sacrificed a lot for my education and, and we do that for our kids.
It's something we really believe in is, um, our kids experiences and our kids learning.
So, we put a lot of resources towards that and we feel, like, very much aligned on that.
Yeah, I think it's a, I don't know, I feel like it's a very good attitude to have.
Like, education is sort of almost unrestricted.
Like, if it's something which Related to learning something new, then it's worth spending money on.
I mean, again, it should be valuable.
Shouldn't be expensive or overpriced or whatever, but I think it's a good sort of attitude to have.
Through generations.
Have you been in the states like 18 years? I was actually trying to count it out.
How long have you been here? Since 2006.
Since 2006.
So yeah, 18 years.
What other, would you say cultural differences in attitudes toward money? I mean, you mentioned debt.
Definitely some different attitudes about like debt tolerance.
Um, I don't know what any other money practices that you've noticed that are different.
Well, I think it's all stems from debt still, like as a result of debt, for example, I think credit cards are used very rarely.
Most of the cards people in Ukraine, in Ukraine, like most of the accounts people have are like what we would call a debit account or checking maybe, but they don't use checks either.
So I guess debit is closer.
In fact, last time I opened the card there, I was a little surprised because if you went into negative balance, it would start charging you a credit card like interest for it.
So it was the single card.
But when it showed that this is the the money you can spend.
It actually included the credit balance on top of the money you actually put in, which was kind of, it actually confused me at some point.
So I spent more than I had.
Like a overdraft protection that is sort of, it's like credit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What about attitudes towards making money? I think for the most, for most of the people making money in Ukraine is still hard.
Like it's a lot of work.
Uh, the income levels are generally are lower.
therefore money is valued more.
There's still disparity of incomes like, you know, some modern professions may make almost Western kind of like salaries, but regular jobs would still make like, hundreds of dollars per month, like as a salary.
And therefore, I think people still respect that the money needs to be earned and it's not something to, treat freely or spend like, you know, you don't frivolously spend it or whatever.
And I think There's also a little bit of that sort of leftover cynical attitudes from communist times, that if somebody does have money, they probably are doing something either illegal or unfair, uh, or they're part of the corruption.
Um, so it's almost like it's a good chance that if a person is rich, They probably did something bad.
It's almost like you can be judged just by being rich.
And, you know, it probably has a lot of historical truth to that.
So it's almost like a stereotype which was reinforced by the actual history of the events.
So it's sort of Maybe starting to break away from it.
And again, my knowledge of what Ukrainian culture is, is diverged since I've been here.
So I don't know exactly what it's like.
But at least with my parents, it was definitely something very questionable.
Cause they had to work hard.
Everyone who had a lot of money, seemingly to do less, it's almost like, well, how did they cheat? what did they do differently? Right.
Is there anything about that, that, that colors income for you personally now being in the States and, you know, pursuing work and, and there may be being a different attitude towards wealth here.
Like, do you, is there any kind of internal conflict for you there about? about income given sort of the skepticism or the mistrust that you had growing up? Um, a little, I think it still makes me feel guilty, a little bit guilty for, say, making more money than my counterparts in Ukraine, for example, There's also like, religion, I think religion is aligned on this, right, like you, you cannot be rich, and go to heaven, right, like you have to, if you're rich then you have to help others, you have to donate, you have to take care of the poor, and that will automatically sort of bring you down and make you less rich.
So, it's almost like by definition, if you are rich, then you are not a pure heart, So it's, it's definitely there.
There's real moral stuff tied up with money.
Absolutely.
Another memory I had from my childhood is I remember as a kid, like my parents would fight sometimes.
And I think pretty early on I made this sort of realization or observation that gosh, a lot of things they argue about sort of stem from either a lack of money or they could have been solved with more money because usually you could compensate, like if somebody doesn't spend enough time, then it's probably because maybe you could hire somebody.
Or if somebody doesn't help around the house more, then maybe you could have solved it by getting some help.
Or if somebody has like a hobby which is very expensive, and another partner feels like it's unfair.
And again, it comes down to not enough money to cover everybody's needs.
So, um, maybe it was kind of like a cynical, uh, lesson I learned, but on the other hand, it's sort of empowering lesson, right? Yeah, and there have been times in our relationship early on where you know if I had a problem or something that sometimes there was a financial solution and that you would bring up and It's very refreshing, you know to me that like, oh I could actually Remove the emotionality here and, maybe there could be a financial solution, like you said, it's a distinctive thing that I hadn't really experienced before.
Okay, I'm going to get really personal now.
What are some of the ways that you and I, in our relationship, are aligned in money that you see? I have my own thoughts, but I'm curious how you see our money relationship together.
I think we both like money.
We like talking about it.
We're open to talk about it.
I think we both come from backgrounds which made us value money.
And we know that it requires hard work.
Um, so it needs to be Kind of respected, but at the same time we also see it for what it is, like it's just a, it's a tool to get other things, like experiences or security or to secure family well being.
Um, helping others again, like its ability to help friends or family members in hard times and so on.
So it's sort of a little bit of a detached, if necessary, attitude, like it's just a token and it doesn't, it doesn't define our self worth or self respect.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
I think one thing that really struck me when we were first together is just is how open you were to talk about money and very neutral and there wasn't It didn't seem to me like there was avoidance or shame or anything like that, that I was sort of used to growing up that like, Oh, we don't talk about what we earn, or we don't talk about what my rent costs.
And you were, you were so transparent about that.
And it, it helped me learn a lot to, like, I was already interested in the topic of money and was working, my work involved a lot of money management, but I had never had it so clear and transparent in an intimate relationship.
And just from the get go, that was there for us and that was, uh, that was just a very cool thing.
And I think something that's different from a lot of dominant culture in the States.
Yeah, I think, I mean, maybe States have its own history, which sort of resulted in this attitude, different attitude.
At least in my childhood people in Ukraine were more open talking about money because nobody had any.
So it was something everyone aspired to and was open to talk about struggles and how people trying to to figure it out.
But once you have more money, then maybe you would feel More cagey talk about it because like, again, you would know that people would get jealous.
People would assume that you did something wrong, so maybe then you would talk about it less.
That's interesting.
It makes me really appreciate that.
You know, as an older child, you experienced an economy going from communism to basically to capitalism and that being so chaotic.
I just want to like backtrack back to then.
Do you have any memories of that time for the USSR to break apart and to go from communism to capitalism, which you might understand now more as an adult, obviously in hindsight, but even as a kid when you were 10, what were some of the things that that you noticed that were changing financially? I think I was shielded from a lot of my parents struggles.
Like I either I wasn't exposed to it or I just wasn't tracking it as a kid.
But I do know, uh, either from memories or like learning about it at school, like the first few years were brutal.
There was like a huge inflation and you know, when I say huge, I don't mean like 10, 5 percent annual.
I think at that time it was about 50 percent monthly or something like that.
And which results in, uh, and by the way, there were like, the currency became, there was like a temporary currency after Ukraine became independent, which was, you know, obviously printed to cover many different deficits in the government and so on.
So yeah, like that was part of it.
And as a result, people would actually spend everything they make.
Cause if you keep it in, in the bank, you will, it will devalue.
Wow.
Yeah.
So people would get their monthly salary and they would go and buy a bunch of groceries or do whatever they needed to buy.
Right, where you're almost like disincentivized to save.
And that's such, that's a huge shift.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or like if you're able to buy a different currency, like US dollar, then you would do that.
I don't remember if it was actually very popular or even legal at the time, because I know it wasn't legal during USSR times, but I think after independence it sort of became more of a norm.
I'm not sure.
So you had to either invest it or exchange it to US dollars or some other currency, or you have to spend it.
And still again, the scarcity thing.
It was still a thing like, uh, yeah, it was still not enough.
That's really scary because of inflation.
So, okay.
Now an even more tender topic or question for you is in what ways do you think our different cultural backgrounds play out financially that like, where do our differences still lie when it comes to money? Just between you and me.
I think my anchoring is still there a little bit.
Like, I know how much cheaper things in Ukraine are because the labor is valued less.
I kind of forget about it, but every time I go to Ukraine I'm reminded of it.
Like, oh.
What we think is a good deal here is actually not a good deal there because in Ukraine you can get the same goods for much, much cheaper.
So when I know like if something is made in China, it kind of blows my mind because it's, it's, it's gotta be even less, it's costing even less to make it there than in Ukraine.
Yeah.
When it's being sold here as a discount is still usually grossly overpriced comparing to what the people who made it sold it for.
Definitely.
So I'm kind of like more cynical about the prices here.
And you will work a lot harder to find something at a lower price than I will.
I, I don't have patience for that.
I'm a little more of an impatient buyer and you have a lot more patience to You know, look for something that's even marginally.
Yeah, but I don't know.
I feel like it's more of a sport for me than anything else.
It's not, it's definitely not a rational thing.
It's more a matter of principle or just for fun of it.
Okay.
Well, one of the topics, the conversation we had recently that made me want to bring you on to the podcast is we had a very funny disagreement about a certain word and.
We were talking about something we needed to buy and you were talking about, Oh, well I found it cheaper at blah, blah, blah.
And we were going back and forth and I said, Oh yeah, so it's less expensive there, but it's more expensive here.
And I didn't realize I was rephrasing the word.
Basically, I never say the word cheap.
I translate it to less expensive.
And you stopped the conversation cause it was bothering you so much.
And we had a really good conversation after that about the things we associate with those words.
And it's a language difference, but I think it's also really interesting.
So what does the word cheap mean to you? Well.
I know the differences like in terms of cheap as a person or cheap as a thing.
And I think I have no problem with things, things being cheap.
Because then it means it's a, it's a good value.
It means it's priced maybe even below its cost or at the cost or slightly above the cost.
But it's, it's a good deal.
I think it's, in that sense, it's equivalent to less expensive, but expensive sort of already means it's above the, the, the fair value, right? It's expensive.
So less expensive still means it's above its fair value.
Oh, that's so interesting.
Right.
Because I do translate a thing can be cheap just as a person can be and cheap often means low quality.
I guess what I mean by less expensive is just less money.
Like I'm just trying to be more accurate with it.
I didn't even realize I was doing it, but yeah, you're right.
Even having the word expensive in there, it's like, am I already inflating it? I don't always go for the lowest price, because as my dad used to say, he has this like proverb that, a stingy person pays twice, or maybe you could say a cheap person pays twice, meaning if you buy the cheapest thing, it will probably break and you'll have to buy another one.
So you'll have to buy twice instead of once.
That is true.
You research things not only to get the best price, but to get the best value.
That is actually what you're looking for.
And you do tend to do that.
Yeah.
And now, actually, like, since we watched that movie Buy Now, about like this whole problem with, how unsustainable utilization of stuff is and it made me kind of revisit it a little bit, like to put a little more value on longevity of things and like sustainability.
But then we know that there's this planned obsolescence and that, that documentary that's Buy Now on Netflix really gets into that and really kind of pulls the curtain back on how tech companies do planned obsolescence.
Yeah, and I mean there are companies who would sell you, something like I say a vacuum for 2, 000 and They call it like a buy it for life, right? But their warranty would not be for that for life.
Like it's not necessarily reflected in What they claim it is versus what they put as a warranty on it.
Right.
It's a marketing, it's a marketing ploy.
Yeah.
And Alex says this because he's been researching vacuums.
Deep dive on vacuum science.
So, okay, my last question, another question I often ask my clients, which is, imagine your money as a creature and go with your first instinct.
What is your money as a creature? This one's hard because I, I don't know a lot of, have not been exposed to many animals, but I would say it does feel like a little bit like a cat in the sense that I have very little control over it, like sometimes I feel like it just has a mind of its own and it will come when it wants to, and it will leave, and it doesn't have any sort of emotional attachment, like it doesn't owe you anything.
All you can do is just to work on, feeding it or making it, um, visit you.
Uh, but it's definitely like a very business relationship, like nothing personal.
There's no attachment whatsoever.
Yeah, it's a neutral for you.
And it's funny because we have two cats, so I'm thinking about them.
Because there's also, when I think about our cats, a lot of satisfaction that we get from them being around.
They're such a fixture and, They're probably more attached to them than this cat I have in mind.
Okay, I gotcha.
The money cat.
If there's something that, if you could go back in time and tell your 10 year old self just about money and about being an adult, what would you let him know? I think I would tell myself to be less risk averse and learn to take more risk.
My sort of weaker point is because of this environment, maybe, of scarcity.
Like, uh, both my parents, my family, I would say, not just my parents, like, and I are pretty, risk averse.
And I think that sort of limits our opportunities we take.
Well, you're not completely risk averse.
You did immigrate to the United States in your twenties.
That was a big risk.
In a very safe environment and safe way.
You did.
You got a job lined up here.
Yes.
But still took a risk on me.
Maybe the riskiest thing you've done.
No, no.
Oh my God.
That's the nicest thing.
I just want to acknowledge, as we're talking about Ukraine and what's going on there right now, you know, going through another economically.
A tough time with the war and we do a lot to support Ukrainians.
We've got some direct ties to support the Ukrainian army and that that's something we really, we value a lot and, and just trying to help help your country through.
There was such a tough time.
Yeah.
And I appreciate if any of our listeners start to support it.
I really appreciate it too.
Our friends who are from Ukraine but live in Denver have started a non profit where they support the Ukrainians in their war effort.
And, uh, we encourage everyone to contribute to the Ukraine aid fund and I will link to it in the show notes.
I appreciate it.
Well, thank you for coming on the show.
Thank you for inviting.
It's good to be here.
Um, uh, Uh, I would love to collect some stories about how different countries handle money differently.
What are the different attitudes and practices and belief systems that you've noticed in your experiences of living in multiple countries? Or having family members from different countries.
Please leave me a voicemail on the pod.
I would love to feature it in an upcoming episode.
Go to money healing club.
com slash podcast, and you'll see a big orange button where you can record a voicemail right from your browser.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to the Money Healing Club podcast.
You can find resources and links from this episode in the show notes at moneyhealingclub.
com slash podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, you'd probably really love my free email course on curbing impulse spending with compassion and mindfulness.
Check it out at moneyhealingclub.
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Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh.