Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #66 Father Abraham

Transcript

#66 Father Abraham · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hey friends,
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  have you ever read one of those books where the introduction is
• 0:25
  a hundred pages
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  SPEAKER_00: long before you actually get to the story?
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  That's kind of what we've been through in the first 11 chapters
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  of Genesis.
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  SPEAKER_00: We have been through the introduction.
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  SPEAKER_00: Thankfully, it wasn't boring.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was some great stories.
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  SPEAKER_00: But all those stories are there to set up.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: What can I get?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: We couldn't get the thing to work.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, this podcast is nothing if it's not high production value.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: You're welcome.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we'll edit that all out.
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  Sometimes the band gets a little out of hand and we got to calm
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  them down.
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  SPEAKER_00: And they had time to play in the same bars every time.
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  SPEAKER_00: Anyway,
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  SPEAKER_00: all of the stories,
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  SPEAKER_00: Genesis chapter 1 through 11,
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  SPEAKER_00: serve kind of as an introduction to the God who is going to call Abraham.
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  And so what we know that Abraham doesn't know when we read this
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  is that the God who
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  SPEAKER_00: calls Abraham is that God we just read about.
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  SPEAKER_00: Abraham doesn't know this yet, but we do.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we're sort of let into some things that Abraham doesn't know.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's going to learn them as he goes along.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the interesting things about the story of Abraham,
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  SPEAKER_00: as we're going to walk through it now for the next few podcasts,
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  SPEAKER_00: is this is a guy who is on a journey,
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  SPEAKER_00: not only a journey from one place to another,
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  SPEAKER_00: but he's on a spiritual journey.
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  SPEAKER_00: because he is learning about who God is.
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  SPEAKER_00: He is learning how to live in relationship with God.
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  SPEAKER_00: And not unlike what perhaps some of our listeners have experienced, where
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  SPEAKER_00: For me, it has been a journey that started when I came out of the womb.
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  I just went to the church my first month out of the womb,
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  and I've been going ever since.
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  SPEAKER_00: And there's been a spiritual journey of learning all these years.
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  SPEAKER_00: Some people come to faith as adults,
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  so they're learning some things that for some of us we've known
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  a long time,
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  SPEAKER_00: they're just learning.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we get to sort of see this God now, knowing what we know,
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  We also get to see this God through the eyes of someone who
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  doesn't know what we
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  SPEAKER_00: know and the things that he begins to discover about God.
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  And,
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  of course,
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  this cosmic God who's not just a God of the Jews but of the
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  whole of creation.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that's why this story is fascinating.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to see that Abraham,
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  SPEAKER_00: who we hold up as this great man of faith,
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  SPEAKER_00: wasn't always such a great man of faith,
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  SPEAKER_00: stumbles a lot like the rest of us.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's what makes his story even more human and more intriguing.
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  SPEAKER_00: But we're going to look at the starting point today,
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  and then we'll get into the nitty-gritty and the dirt and the
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  sex and all that
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  SPEAKER_00: other stuff in the weeks to come.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of that stuff.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sex and romance and intrigue.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, my goodness.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's just the first few chapters.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, Terry, would you...
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  SPEAKER_00: There we go.
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  SPEAKER_00: That was a callback from the last one.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
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  SPEAKER_00: So would you do us the honor once again to read for us,
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  SPEAKER_00: this time from Genesis chapter 12,
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  SPEAKER_00: verses 1 through 9.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_03: I do have a question really quick.
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  SPEAKER_03: So you're saying Abraham, but Abram is the way they... It starts.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: What we're going to see is he starts as Abram,
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  SPEAKER_03: Abram.
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  SPEAKER_00: God is going to change his name to Abraham.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to talk about that in a few weeks.
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  SPEAKER_00: Why name change is so important.
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  SPEAKER_00: We just, we all know him as Abraham.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: So when you start seeing Abram, people are saying, who's this guy?
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  SPEAKER_00: It's Abraham.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm glad I said something.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_03: The Lord had said to Abram,
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  SPEAKER_03: leave your native country,
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  your relatives and your father's family and go to the land that
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  I will show you.
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  SPEAKER_03: I will make you into a great nation.
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  I will bless you and make you famous and you will be a blessing
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  to others.
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  I will bless those who bless you and curse those who treat you
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  with contempt.
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  SPEAKER_03: All the families on earth will be blessed through you.
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  SPEAKER_03: So Abram departed as the Lord had instructed and Lot went with him.
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  SPEAKER_03: Abram was 75 years old when he left Iran.
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  SPEAKER_03: He took his wife,
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  SPEAKER_03: Sarai,
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  SPEAKER_03: his nephew,
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  SPEAKER_03: Lot,
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  SPEAKER_03: and all his wealth,
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  SPEAKER_03: his livestock,
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  and all the people he had taken into his household at Iran and
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  headed for the land
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  SPEAKER_03: of Canaan.
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  When they arrived in Canaan,
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  Abram traveled through the land as far as Shechem,
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  SPEAKER_03: There he set up camp beside the Oak of Moreh.
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  SPEAKER_03: At that time, the area was inhabited by Canaanites.
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  Then the Lord appeared to Abram and said,
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  I will give you this land to your descendants.
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  And Abram built an altar there and dedicated it to the Lord who
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  had appeared to him.
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  SPEAKER_03: After that,
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  Abram traveled south and set up camp in the hill country with
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  Bethel to the west
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  SPEAKER_03: and Ai to the east.
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  There he built another altar and dedicated it to the Lord,
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  and he worshiped the Lord.
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  SPEAKER_03: Then Abram continued traveling south by stages toward the Negev.
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  All right,
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  there are a lot of things context-wise going on with this
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  story.
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  First of all,
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  the Lord said to Abram,
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  and then we've got Abram building an altar to the Lord.
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  SPEAKER_00: And in your Bibles, you'll notice Lord, L-O-R-D is capitalized.
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  because it is meant to stand for the name of God,
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  Yahweh,
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  which the Jewish people wouldn't say.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we have Lord in caps.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now,
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  SPEAKER_00: the interesting thing is,
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  SPEAKER_00: God didn't give that name,
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  SPEAKER_00: the Lord,
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  SPEAKER_00: until Moses,
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  SPEAKER_00: hundreds of years after Abraham.
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  SPEAKER_00: So part of what you have happening here,
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  SPEAKER_00: of course,
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  SPEAKER_00: is the storyteller reading back into the story,
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  SPEAKER_00: what they now know.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right?
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  Abraham wouldn't have heard that voice and said,
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  oh yeah,
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  it's the Lord,
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  it's Yahweh.
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  SPEAKER_00: He would have had no context for that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Which makes his journey really remarkable.
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  He just hears some voice or has some sort of intuitive feeling,
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  but it is so compelling to him.
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  SPEAKER_00: that he stakes his life on it,
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  SPEAKER_00: uproots his family,
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  SPEAKER_00: goes to this land,
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  SPEAKER_00: and as we'll see throughout his life,
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  SPEAKER_00: puts many things on the line for this God who speaks to him.
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  SPEAKER_00: A second observation is that this is where we begin,
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  in many ways,
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  the conflicts that we still see to this day in the land of
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  Israel.
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  SPEAKER_00: Whose land is this?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So in some ways,
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  SPEAKER_00: you could say that the Jews are the people of the book,
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  SPEAKER_00: which would be the Torah and the people of the land.
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  SPEAKER_00: Christians would be people of the book, but people of the Messiah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so for us, the Messiah sort of informs how we understand the Bible.
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  SPEAKER_00: But the land was really crucial.
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  SPEAKER_00: I will give you land.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so much of the story of the people of Israel centers around the land,
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  SPEAKER_00: claiming the land,
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  SPEAKER_00: losing the land,
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  SPEAKER_00: being exiled from the land,
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  SPEAKER_00: coming back to the land,
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  SPEAKER_00: losing the land.
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  oppressors coming in it all centers on this little piece of
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  land we know as israel
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  and to this day people are still fighting over it and we're not
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  going to get into
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  the politics of it it's just to say that this is an ancient
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  ancient story and these
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  SPEAKER_00: conflicts are rooted in ancient ancient stories sure sure um and then um
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  SPEAKER_00: Another thing to notice,
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  SPEAKER_00: I want to just comment here,
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  SPEAKER_00: and we're going to spend some time on this,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I will make you a great nation.
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  I will bless you and make you famous,
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  and you will be a blessing to others.
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  SPEAKER_00: I will bless you and curse those who treat you with contempt.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay,
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  SPEAKER_00: so somebody,
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  SPEAKER_00: John or Terry or both,
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  SPEAKER_00: they're going to say,
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  SPEAKER_00: well,
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  SPEAKER_00: that doesn't sound very gracious.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because it doesn't.
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  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't.
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  SPEAKER_00: And all the families on Earth will be blessed through you.
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  SPEAKER_00: All the families of the Earth will be blessed through you.
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  SPEAKER_00: How many of the families, Terry?
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  SPEAKER_00: All.
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  SPEAKER_00: John, 60%, 70%?
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  SPEAKER_00: How many of the families?
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  SPEAKER_01: All, for sure.
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  SPEAKER_00: All.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's a big word.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's no hedging bets on that one.
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  SPEAKER_00: All's pretty big.
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  SPEAKER_00: So this God that we saw in Genesis 1 through 11,
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  who is constantly trying to bring grace and compassion and
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  order of chaos to
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  SPEAKER_00: humanity,
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  SPEAKER_00: now says,
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  SPEAKER_00: Abram,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's going to be through you that I'm going to do this.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what makes this story surprising,
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  SPEAKER_00: because we hinted at last week,
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  SPEAKER_00: the gods in the ancient Near East were tribal gods.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right?
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  SPEAKER_00: In fact,
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  many of the surrounding cultures thought that Yahweh was a
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  tribal God for the
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  SPEAKER_00: people of Israel.
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  And if you defeat Israel,
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  you've defeated the Israelites,
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  you defeat their God,
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  and so on.
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  But here we have this radical claim that this God has at least
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  the conceit to
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  SPEAKER_00: believe that this God is God of all.
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  SPEAKER_00: And of course,
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  that sort of proves itself out at the beginning of the Bible
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  and throughout the
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  SPEAKER_00: rest of the Bible.
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  Because he has the ability to indicate that all of the families
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  will be blessed.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  And you've already seen this cosmic universal God in chapters 1
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  through 11.
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  SPEAKER_00: If we didn't have chapters 1 through 11,
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  SPEAKER_00: and we just started at verse 12,
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  that blessed to be a blessing wouldn't make a lot of sense at
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  the very beginning.
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  SPEAKER_00: We would get it later.
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  SPEAKER_00: But we would understand that these gods are tribal.
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  SPEAKER_00: They only care about their tribes.
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  SPEAKER_00: And yet this one's saying...
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  SPEAKER_00: You're blessed to be a blessing to all nations.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, why would this God do that?
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  SPEAKER_00: Well,
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  SPEAKER_00: because from Genesis chapters 1 through 11,
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  SPEAKER_00: that's what God always does,
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  SPEAKER_00: and that's the God of Israel.
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  SPEAKER_00: The creator of the universe chooses Israel to bless the world.
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  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean God doesn't choose the rest of the world.
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  It just means that God's specific work is going to happen to
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  the people of Israel.
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  SPEAKER_00: And, of course, as Christians, we trace our lineage from that to Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_00: and the Christian church.
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  And of course,
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  the Muslims,
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  Islamic folks,
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  they also have a stake in Abraham.
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  SPEAKER_00: But they trace their lineage not through Isaac, but through Ishmael.
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  SPEAKER_00: So Abraham had two sons.
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  SPEAKER_00: So really,
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  SPEAKER_00: in many ways,
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  SPEAKER_00: three major religions look to Abraham in some way,
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  SPEAKER_00: shape,
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  SPEAKER_00: or form as sort of their founding father.
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  And this is also,
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  Tim,
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  all the...
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  It's just occurring to me how expansive this is.
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  SPEAKER_01: All the families, so including the Gentiles.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_01: Including the everybody.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is where,
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  SPEAKER_00: like in Isaiah,
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  SPEAKER_00: when Isaiah would talk about the great feast on the mountain of God,
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  SPEAKER_00: and all the nations,
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  SPEAKER_00: and it would include the Gentiles,
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  SPEAKER_00: would be gathered there.
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  SPEAKER_00: And...
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  SPEAKER_00: And some of the folks of Israel would just say, that's blasphemy.
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  SPEAKER_00: What are you talking about?
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  And that's why when Jesus comes along and he eats with sinners
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  and tax collectors,
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  SPEAKER_00: and he has,
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  SPEAKER_00: most of his time,
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  SPEAKER_00: of course,
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  SPEAKER_00: was spent with Jewish people.
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  But when he has interactions with Gentiles,
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  they're just so deeply offended.
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  SPEAKER_00: How can you be a man of God and hang with those kinds of people?
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  SPEAKER_00: And it goes back all the way to the call of Abraham.
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  SPEAKER_00: You have been blessed to be a blessing to all peoples.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is a consistent theme.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the Jewish response is a consistent theme we still hear to this day.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, those people aren't involved.
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  SPEAKER_00: Those people can't be in.
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  SPEAKER_00: We've got to make laws to keep them out.
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  SPEAKER_00: We've got to make church laws to keep them out.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're sinners.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're this or that.
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  SPEAKER_00: They just can't get in.
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  SPEAKER_00: God created hell for them.
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  SPEAKER_00: So this is a persistent,
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  persistent problem that God is constantly trying to correct
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  over and over again.
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  SPEAKER_00: From the very first,
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  SPEAKER_00: in the beginning,
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  SPEAKER_00: God created the heavens and the earth,
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  SPEAKER_00: created human beings,
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  SPEAKER_00: created in God's image.
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  SPEAKER_00: That means everybody.
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  SPEAKER_00: To you are blessed to be a blessing to all families,
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  SPEAKER_00: to all the nations gathering on the mountain,
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  SPEAKER_00: to Jesus dying for all people.
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  And yet we constantly as religious people are trying to put
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  boxes around who's in and who's out.
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  And we just see that happen over and over again in this story
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  and in the Christian
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  SPEAKER_00: story and as life goes on.
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  SPEAKER_00: So God fights that over and over again.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go ahead, Terry.
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  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
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  SPEAKER_03: This was just extracurricular.
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  SPEAKER_03: Remember the song?
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  SPEAKER_03: Maybe some of you do and don't, but I think I'll sing it for you.
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  SPEAKER_03: Father Abraham had many sons.
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  SPEAKER_03: I want to finish.
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  SPEAKER_03: Many sons had Father Abraham.
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  SPEAKER_03: I am one of them, and so are you.
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  SPEAKER_03: That means everybody, right?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Even daughters.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, there you go.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Even daughters.
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  SPEAKER_03: It was an old song.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  So part of the point I'm trying to make is these first nine
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  verses of chapter 12
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  SPEAKER_00: are packed with stuff that still speak to us today.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: The issue of the land of Israel.
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  The issue of blessed to be a blessing for all families,
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  not just some,
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  but for all families.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we'll talk through the cursing part here in a bit.
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  SPEAKER_00: And just Abraham's willingness, and we don't know what it is.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, there are a lot of things the Bible just has as mystery.
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  SPEAKER_00: It just tells the story.
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  SPEAKER_00: We don't know if he heard a voice.
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  SPEAKER_00: We don't know if he had a premonition.
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  SPEAKER_00: We don't know if he had a vision at this point.
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  SPEAKER_00: But there was something so compelling about this voice,
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  SPEAKER_00: this thing,
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  SPEAKER_00: whatever,
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  SPEAKER_00: that he decides to go.
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  SPEAKER_00: And,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure his wife is hoping,
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  SPEAKER_00: I hope it wasn't last night's beans,
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  SPEAKER_00: because that's a long way to go for gas.
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  SPEAKER_00: At 75.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, at 75, yeah.
• 16:15
  And so this really sets the stage then for the continuing story
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  of the people of Israel.
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  SPEAKER_00: their sense of being chosen,
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  SPEAKER_00: their sense that it's not just for us but others,
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  SPEAKER_00: and their sense is this is just for us and not others.
• 16:33
  And this ongoing story and how it is through the family of
• 16:38
  Abraham that God is
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: going to find all the lost sheep and bring them home,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: which is kind of the story of the prodigal son.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get at this.
• 16:50
  I will bless those who bless you and curse those who treat you
• 16:53
  with contempt.
• 16:58
  This has been,
• 17:00
  in many ways,
• 17:01
  a verse that has caused a lot of damage throughout the world.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: And people are going to think I'm getting political here,
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: and I probably am,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm going to try to keep it theological.
• 17:20
  I think it has allowed permission for the nation of Israel as
• 17:24
  we know it now to be
• 17:27
  able to do things that maybe others would not get away with
• 17:34
  because if you curse
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Israel,
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: you will be cursed.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:40
  And it's really important for us to keep in mind that while the
• 17:45
  nation of Israel is
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: is a nation just like the United States of America or England,
• 17:53
  it is not necessarily equally the same as the story of the
• 17:59
  people of Israel as a
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: religious entity.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of people in Israel who are still Jewish by faith,
• 18:06
  but there are a lot of Jewish people who are Jewish simply by
• 18:08
  birth and not faith.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: And the actions of the nation of Israel...
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: do not necessarily reflect the biblical Hebrew Jewish story.
• 18:24
  There's a difference between the nation state of Israel and the
• 18:29
  politics of Israel
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: and the theological story of the people of Israel.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so...
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard not to get into this,
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: but we know that Israel was attacked a couple years ago in October,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: a couple years ago when people from Gaza came in and took hostages.
• 18:52
  There are very few people who believe that Israel shouldn't
• 18:54
  have the right to get
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: those hostages back.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: But now Israel has...
• 18:59
  come in and has created the nation of Israel,
• 19:03
  has come into Gaza and there's starvation.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: There are people dying from hunger.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: There are innocent people dying.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And at some point,
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: you just have to step back and say,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: if it weren't Israel,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: would we be saying,
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: this has got to stop?
• 19:17
  But there are some people who are so bought into being blessed
• 19:22
  by Israel or being
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: cursed if we stand against them,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: that they're afraid that if we stand against Israel...
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe not even stand against Israel,
• 19:31
  but maybe stand against some of their policies that were going
• 19:35
  to be cursed.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not what this is saying here.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really difficult to do.
• 19:43
  We have to sort of make a separation between the state of
• 19:46
  Israel and the people of
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Israel called by God to be a blessing to all.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sort of a theological Israel.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really difficult to do.
• 19:56
  And so I don't want to spend much more time on it,
• 19:58
  but just to say that it's there.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of the challenges.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think here,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: and I haven't dug into this one enough,
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: so I'm just going to sort of spitball this a little bit.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: I will bless those who bless you.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: I will curse those who treat you with contempt.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think what that means is in the end,
• 20:18
  God has a special place in his heart for the people of Israel
• 20:21
  and God will protect
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: them.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we see that throughout Scripture.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: When the Egyptians take them into slavery,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: God eventually comes in and protects them,
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: and Israel suffers some of the consequences of that decision.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: And over and over again,
• 20:40
  when nations have tried in the Bible to usurp Israel's right to
• 20:46
  exist as human
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: beings and mistreats them,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: in the end,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: they suffer the consequences for that sort of abuse and oppression.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: So if you oppress my people, for example, I'm going to rescue them.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: And there'll be consequences to that.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that that goes even further.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think what Scripture is going to say was,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: if we treat anybody with contempt,
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: if we oppress anybody with contempt,
• 21:16
  God is always on the side of those treated with contempt and
• 21:18
  who are treated and
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: who are oppressed.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: And God says, I'm standing on their side.
• 21:22
  I'm standing on the side of the orphans and the widows and the
• 21:26
  oppressed and the least of these.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: in part,
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: what you have here is Israel,
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: this small nation,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: sort of the least of these,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: they're going to be the victims of oppression over and over again,
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: from Egypt to Babylon to Assyria to Rome to Greece to Persia.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And God's saying, don't do it.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Don't do it.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Don't oppress my people.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've got their back.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think it's that God's cursing them.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is a sort of a protection thing.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I love you.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I want to save you through Abraham.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: But man, if you start oppressing my people, I'm going to rescue them.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't see this as anti-God's grace.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: I see this as a protective parent saying, don't oppress them.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: My people.
• 22:16
  And God will go on further as the story grows and says,
• 22:19
  just don't oppress people,
• 22:21
  period.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm going to stand on their side.
• 22:25
  yeah yeah i think i you know i absolutely agree with you on uh
• 22:30
  on israel and i i
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: just encourage people to do some do some good research on that and um and
• 22:37
  understand as well as can be understood this thousands of years
• 22:41
  old sort of
• 22:42
  contention over the land and how that develops into and where
• 22:47
  religions are pulling
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: their people from i think that's super important
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I also think, Tim, that that sentence applies to everybody.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think at a certain level,
• 22:57
  I think we all want God to bless us and then curse those that
• 23:00
  treat us with
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: contempt.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that sounds like a good plan.
• 23:04
  But then I also am trying to work through those two sentences
• 23:08
  together,
• 23:09
  right?
• 23:10
  I will bless those who bless you and curse those who treat you
• 23:13
  with contempt.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: all the families on earth will be blessed through you,
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: which apparently includes those that treat you with contempt.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Including those who put Jesus to the cross.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's what's so radical about this story.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you're the oppressor, God's will is still to bless you.
• 23:36
  Ultimately,
• 23:37
  that doesn't mean that there aren't consequences to oppressing
• 23:39
  people.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, just let me say clearly, I've been to Israel six times.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: John, you've been there twice or once?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Once.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, once.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: I love the land of Israel.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: When you go there,
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: there's just something,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: it's even hard to put in words,
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: that you feel,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: that you experience when you're in that land.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: I have people I love who live there.
• 24:05
  So this isn't being an anti-Israel statement to say that maybe
• 24:10
  Israel right now is
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: doing some things that aren't necessarily human or humane.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's not being anti-Israel.
• 24:17
  Just like it's not being anti-American if our government starts
• 24:20
  to do some things
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: that are illegal or oppressive,
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: then good Americans stand up and say,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: I love this country too much to allow that to continue to happen.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to see my country devolve into that.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: And the same with Israel.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: I love Israel too much.
• 24:34
  A lot of people love Israel too much to let their conscience
• 24:37
  and soul be tarnished
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: by an over-response.
• 24:44
  And how do you say over-response to your loved ones being
• 24:47
  kidnapped and killed?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: But still,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: to do kind of some of the things that we're seeing,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: you at least need to step back and ask the question,
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: is that really...
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: is that really what God wants to happen here in this moment?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Is that really how God wants the people, God to respond?
• 25:06
  And so we're going to get out of the politics of it and just
• 25:08
  say this first nine
• 25:10
  verses really has a lot to do with a lot of the geopolitical
• 25:14
  stuff we see happening
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: in the Middle East.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't want to spend a lot of time there,
• 25:20
  but just to say that's why this story is so really important
• 25:24
  because everybody has
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: a claim to this story.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: The people of Israel have a claim to this story.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Christians have a claim to this story.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Muslims have a claim to this story.
• 25:32
  And you see that being fought out in the way that Jerusalem is
• 25:38
  divided up between
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: the Jews and the Christians and the Muslims.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: You've got the mosque up on the hill where the temple used to be.
• 25:48
  So all of that stuff comes back to Genesis chapter 12,
• 25:51
  verses 1 through 9.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: All the negative stuff.
• 25:55
  We're going to focus on the grace behind it,
• 25:58
  which is blessed to be a blessing.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: But this is where religion can get out of hand, right?
• 26:03
  When it becomes a political power rather than a theological
• 26:12
  movement of compassion and grace.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:18
  Terry,
• 26:19
  you want to give us your email so that people can send nasty
• 26:21
  comments your way?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: I hear you.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think we dipped our toe in it, but I hear you.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll dip out of it again.
• 26:40
  Hopefully people get a sense that this story and the stories
• 26:43
  we're moving into are ancient,
• 26:47
  They're meant to be grace stories that oftentimes get twisted
• 26:54
  and become hurtful,
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: which we want to avoid as much as possible.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Anything else on this?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because we're going to see this guy, Abraham's called, or Abram's called.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: He's not Abraham yet.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: And he's got this great call.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: He's all set.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: He's worshiped God a couple times.
• 27:11
  And then he's going to step into it and he's going to show
• 27:14
  himself not to be quite
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: as fantastic as we think he is.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the story for next time.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Has a little something to do with betraying his wife.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:28
  Any other comments,
• 27:28
  questions before we see if we can get our music to work and
• 27:33
  close down?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Alrighty.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back next time.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're, um,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Abraham protects his own skin at the potential cost of his wife.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the guy who is the leader of the Jewish,
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Christian,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: and Muslim faith,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: or the father,
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: not the leader,
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: the father.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: So a very human story with a very compassionate God.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Be back with you next time, everybody.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Can't wait.