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How Leaders Can Be More Effective Regarding Mental Health in the Workplace with Bernie Dyme · Authentic Living

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Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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things that really matter in our lives.
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And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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Hi, everyone.
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It's, Roxanne Derhodge of Authentic Living with Roxanne.
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Thanks again for tuning in.
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This week, I have a I would say a a guest that's I feel comfortable talking about because
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I've spent a lot of time in his industry.
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This is Bernie Dimes.
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So Bernie is the CEO of perspectives at employee assistance program, and we'll talk a
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little bit about what that is.
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So, Bernie, thanks so much for coming in.
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Talking to us today.
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Thank you very much for having me, and I'm especially, interested in doing this because
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this is a big month, September.
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And actually Friday, tomorrow, I believe is 10th, right, is, World Suicide, Prevention Day.
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So this is Suicide Prevention Month.
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No more apt than to talk about employee assistance programs and behavioral health and
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mental wellness in the, in the, in workplace.
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So I know a lot of companies out there, you know, I know you've been in the industry and
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like I, was in the industry starting back and how goodness 1994.
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That's how long I've been involved.
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So the employee assistance program got started by, you know, a psychologist that recognize
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that employees bring themselves to work.
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And I now know, and we can talk about this openly because for years, we would talk about
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people leaving their personal cells at home, you know, kind of they hit the corporate door
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and whatever door they go in and they you know, there's, you know, work Roxanne and home rocks
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in and all those things.
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And we we know today based on what we've been through that that is not that's in fact, not
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the case.
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It never has been.
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So, Bertie, let's talk a little bit about what we know and we've lived in in a world about
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mental well-being.
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And what's been happening out here, in the last 2 years that's making people really I'm gonna
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say, listen with a different ear.
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To mental health.
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I think that if there's anything good about the pandemic, it's that mental health has come to
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the fore.
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It's that leaders and organizations have begun to realize, and I think they've always seen it,
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but I think they've become very, acutely aware of the connection between mental wellness and
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performance.
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And, you know, you said it before, it would have been great Roxanne if We could kind of
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come into work, open our locker, just like we put our clothes on, put our work clothes on,
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and then go to work.
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And at the end of the day, put that and do that with our emotions and our our our feelings.
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We can't do that.
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We've never, as you said, been able to do that.
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We we bring to work what happened to our our child or our significant other, we bring to
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work a diagnosis we got from our physician, We bring to work all kinds of things, and we bring
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home from work all kinds of things.
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So that separation, no matter how much we focus, on workplace, and work life balance is
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always gonna be a struggle for people.
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In this last almost 2 years now, it's really come to the fore more because people are
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struggling not just with the normal things that they normally would have to deal with, but now
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they're struggling with a few extra issues.
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Right?
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They're struggling with work remotely.
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You know, they're struggling with trying to figure out how to deal with their compatriots
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in these little boxes on zoom versus going into the work, in into the lunch room going to the
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cooler and having conversations.
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Leaders are struggling with culture, how to maintain a culture and and closeness and some
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kind of sense of intimacy that's good for business as well, remotely.
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So all of those things are happening aside from the fact that people are now, wearing many more
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hats.
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So I'm working at home.
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And luckily, I'm old, so I don't have young children, but I really my literally, my hat
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goes off to these young parents who now are working from home to career couples, they now
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are, housekeepers, they now are educators and tutors, They now are dealing with their spouses
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in a way or their partners in a way that they've never been had to do that before.
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And all of that stuff is happening in the context of having to get your work done.
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So people, their mental health issues are coming to the floor, and I think We're also
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beginning to train leaders and supervisors on how to use this new medium to stay in touch
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with how people are doing emotionally, that they could be engaged at work.
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I know that's a big answer, and a long winded answer.
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I could give you tons more And that's not ending.
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It's gonna get more complicated.
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One last thing I will say.
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The world of work as we've known it has changed forever.
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People keep talking about the new normal.
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I'm not sure what that means.
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I don't think there's ever gonna be a new normal other than the new abnormal.
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We're gonna see resurgences as we are right now, We're gonna see all kinds of issues around
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diversity, equity, and inclusion that have really risen to the fore, and all of those
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things are gonna take those boundaries between work and home and even blur them more.
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And so if we're thinking about retention if we're thinking about recruitment, we've gotta
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be thinking about creating, a workplace that's safe that's comfortable, that's transparent,
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where people could come to work and talk about how they're doing without being jest eyes for
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it without feeling ashamed, which is the other thing about mental health, it has come out of
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the closet, if you will, and that's a good thing.
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So let's talk a little bit about because I think you and I live in this world and have
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lived in this world as practitioners and as business people There's a continuum.
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Right?
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There's a continuum.
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We always talk.
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I, you know, I always use this example, Bernie, that I go to my doctor's office, I've got an 11
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o'clock.
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I sit there for 45 minutes that my name's gonna be called with 30 other people.
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That's on a roster.
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And we all know we're in there for something physical, potentially.
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Maybe psychological, baby, emotional, but we sit there and we're okay with that, that we can
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sit in this work this waiting room.
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But with our kind of concept of that anything emotional, because, you know, about
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confidentiality, which is a cornerstone of what, what your business is around EAP, A lot
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of times people mix up the concept of that it's okay to be emotionally well because they're
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thinking that everything, if I if I'm having a tough day because I've separated, I have to go
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see this cloak and dagger person somewhere, and I'm never supposed talk about, but then you're
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telling me to come to work.
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And if I'm having an issue because I just went through a separation, I'm supposed to you know,
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be okay with talking about it.
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So I think there's a bit of confusion out there sometimes.
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So I'm just wondering if you can kind of clarify for, say, the average person or the
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person the leadership teams that are listening to this this podcast today.
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So I'm gonna share a fantasy.
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Don't get too cited.
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This is my fantasy about where the world hopefully will end up.
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When we go into our, CEO's office or our manager's office because we've been diagnosed,
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god forbid, with cancer or cardiovascular issues, We don't think twice about that.
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I mean, we're a little nervous about it, but we're not ashamed of it.
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We bring it up and usually our managers or leaders are sensitive to.
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They listen to us.
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They're they're they're concerned about us, and then they help us sort of navigate through.
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My fantasy is that someday, people can walk into their office of their CEO or their super
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nuts and say, you know what?
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I'm struggling with bipolar depression.
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I it really affects me.
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I'm I'm I'm not using this as an excuse.
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Just like I'm not using my cancer as an excuse.
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I wanna be here at work, but I just wanna let you know that.
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And then rather than CEOs being embarrassed, ashamed, scared, judgmental in a negative way,
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they'll treat it the same way as they do with cardiovascular or or cancer.
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And and I think the way to get there is what's really important.
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The way to get there is to open it up and educate leaders that it's okay that mental
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health and mental wellness is no different than physical health or physical wellness.
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That we can help people by feeling comfortable sharing that.
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Not feeling ashamed because, you know, the reality is if if you've got a a heart problem
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and you don't go to a doctor, it's gonna get worse.
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You're gonna cost the organization.
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I'm gonna talk about this in a really unfeeling way.
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Gonna cost the organization a lot more money than if you get help and come back to work,
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while the same thing is true in spades.
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When you're talking about behavioral health too.
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So I think we need to train leaders that it on how to have those conversations So there's
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there's a new concept new within the last 5 or 10 years that we provide to our EAPs, and I
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think a lot of these top tier EAPs are beginning to offer that's that's this
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psychological or mental health first aid.
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It's a wonderful tool.
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It really starts with leadership and brings it all the way down to all employees And the job
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is to demystify, to to make it okay to begin to talk about it, and it helps you to know what it
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is to identify things, not trying to train people to be therapists, but what are the
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things you listen for to know that people might be having trouble And then how to have the
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conversation?
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Like, you know, you don't say we'll get your act together.
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I don't wanna hear about it, or you know, isn't there a drug for this?
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That's not the kind of thing you say.
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How do you train people to do that?
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The more that's happening, the more leadership gets on board and the more so do people.
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There was a an internal employee assistance program many years.
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I was lucky enough to know the the gentleman that ran it at DuPont And they had a problem, a
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a a place called ICU.
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Right?
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And it was, you know, a plan word, but it was ICU.
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And what it was, it was a training for all employees to be able to take a look at their
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friend next door or in the next Carol or in the next office or at the water cooler and say,
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hey, you know, lately, you've been looking a little down or under the weather.
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How you doing?
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Everything okay, that interest makes a huge difference in terms of whether or not people
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feel comfortable in Logan Health.
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So long winded answer to your question Roxanne is I think we need to be training managers and
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leaders.
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I should start with leaders and managers.
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It is stopped now on how to make it okay.
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And and one way to do that, the most active organizations we've worked with, and I I've
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read studies about this, is where leaders feel comfortable enough.
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And in a in a in a comfortable way and not in a boundaryless way, to share some of their
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experiences with mental health and the help they've gotten.
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It just opens a door, not just a crack, but a tremendous amount.
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I I don't know if that answers or addresses your question.
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Abs absolutely.
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And I I think that, you know, in this day and age and and obviously, You can probably tell me
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the data on how much more anxiety and depression is showing on your, your trending
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analysis from people that are coming forward.
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But I I think that leaders are people and people we all can can be along that spectrum,
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right, if you think about it.
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You know, you know, who hasn't, you know, like, likewise, like you, I don't have young children
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at all.
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Who hasn't been through deaths?
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Who hasn't been through, separations?
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Who hasn't been through children leaving to go away to school, you know, conflicted families.
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These are normal, normal things.
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And I know in my, tenure, when I worked, with Morneau, 65% of people presenting, where issues
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were related to relationships.
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And now we take that, that And we think of the last 2 years.
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And like you said, the pressure cooker now home is work, work is home.
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The children are there.
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They're they're all, you know, mom and dad are probably potentially working from different
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homes in their room and and roots in their home, plus plus plus.
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So what's happened to the data on relationships?
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Is it that we're not seeing anything yet?
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Because everybody's been holding their breath, and we're gonna see a spillover into this new
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abnormal like you've called it?
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What what are you seeing out there with the data with the companies that you serve?
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Well, let me give you a couple of basic things about again, I'm talking about so not all EAPs,
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and I'm I I really feel very strongly about this are the same, right?
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I'm talking about, sort of a level of EAPs, top tier EAPs, not the ones that are embedded in
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insurance companies or disability carriers.
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Where where it's important for a company to check the box.
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I'm talking about a very active EAP.
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That's a full service EAP And what we're seeing, I will tell you, we've done our own
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studies, and there's actually a study that'll be coming out in a little bit, and I'm looking
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at my notes here because I don't wanna lose track of it, but this they, this was in they
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interviewed this study interviewed 98 providers and purchasers of workplace mental health
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programs, and the EAP counselor clinical case rate has risen 41% over pre pandemic times.
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Now what does that mean?
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Yes.
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There's greater numbers of people that are struggling, but it also I'd like to think also
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means more people are availing themselves with these services.
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They're feeling more comfortable.
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Maybe it's because they have no choice.
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Maybe it's because leaders are starting to see the value of it.
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I'd like to think it's some combination of both.
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The other thing is the average number of sessions per case has gone up.
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It's gone up by almost 30% in the number of sessions.
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And most of those cases are, or at least start with relationship based issues.
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Right?
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So a lot of times what we see is people coming in and saying, you know, I'm feeling depressed.
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I'm feeling anxious.
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I'm stressed out.
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And when we do a little further questioning, what we find out is there's some issues with
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being home with their spouse or their partner or there's some issues with dealing with their
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family around who does the dishes?
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I know this sounds crazy, but you know what?
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Sometimes people don't do the dishes, and once spouse becomes responsible for it, those little
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things It's not just the dishes.
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It's what the dishes really represent.
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So we're seeing that go up.
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We're seeing, we're seeing a greater increase and this should not surprise anybody in a
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request for and fulfillment of services for you'll know this from your days at Morneau,
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work life, the traditional, especially childcare, but also elder care.
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And, you know, we we we need to touch on the fact that death and dying is occurring, and I
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don't wanna be morbid, but in a very different way.
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And so more support is being provided for people who don't get to see their loved ones,
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those last few days of their life, and not only have to deal with that, and not only have to
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deal with you know, not actually saying goodbye to people in person, but then having to go back
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and function in their home and in their workplace So we're seeing an increase, a
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significant increase in the in the request for and service delivery of these these couples
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counseling cases.
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And again, I don't think that's gonna change.
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I really don't.
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We're seeing things shut down a little bit more.
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I hope that changes.
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But again, the new abnormal, I think this is gonna be sort of an up and down thing for a
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long time And by the way, I don't think we're gonna all return.
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It's not like one day we're gonna wake up.
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Everybody's gonna go back to the workplace.
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That's not gonna happen.
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So leadership, and we do a lot of not just EAP, which is behavioral wellness and health, we
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also do a lot of organizational consulting and coaching.
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You do some of that yourself as well, Roxanne.
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So you know that leaders are now struggling to try and figure out how to navigate through this
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how to be good leaders?
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How to keep this?
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You know, we talk about this this magical term called culture.
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Well, how do we keep our culture going.
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How do we improve our culture?
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In this past year, we've hired about 10 people.
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I've not met them yet.
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The interview and onboarding process has occurred, on Zoom.
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We're just starting to see those people and meet those people in any person.
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What does that mean about establishing relationships with new people at
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work?
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Right?
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Because, of course, like, I mean, you think of any new kind of, job.
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You, you know, you're I often say, you know, it's like about it's my, you know, you get your
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feet wet, Where's the lunchroom?
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Who's on what team?
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Yep.
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You know, where am I gonna fit?
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Where's my skills gonna be recognized?
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You know, who's a who's an alignment with me, those types of things.
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And then you're kinda, you know, trying to kinda find the the temperature of the
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organization And, on a virtual end, you know, we're doing it, but it's it's in a different
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contrived kind of way.
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Yep.
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And you have the existing team that are neat to incorporate these ten people, but nobody's mad
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in person.
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And you can do virtual meetups, but we know that it's not the same.
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How does that affect culture?
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And then in turn, if people are struggling, what if your newer people are struggling?
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Cause you're trying to integrate in your older people potentially or your tenured people have
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that synergy, and the virtual people are trying to they're trying to get on the carousel, and
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they're trying to figure out how do I how do I kind of blend without feeling I'm, you know,
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there's the new and the old.
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So there's a lot of other variables organizationally, like you're saying, that
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didn't exist, say, you know, well, a couple years ago.
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Right?
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And let me add one thing, Rex, and you were talking about what do you tell leaders now?
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And I do believe it starts at leadership.
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If if if anything if I can say one thing, if I could impart any wisdom in this in this few
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minutes that were together, It's that please, please, please, I wanted to see each leaders
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take this seriously and think about not just sort of the remediation of these situations
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that are in trouble but also what can you do proactively?
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So I'm gonna give you another study.
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This came out in March, and this was done in, in in the employ this is reported in the, in
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the EBM, which is the employee benefit news.
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And what they did was they looked at the difference between employers and employees and
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their opinions of workplace mental health, and it's really some interesting numbers.
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Right?
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So they they they surveyed a number of people and employers, 94 4% of employers thought they
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were doing enough to support mental health.
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Only 69% of employees funding.
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Now okay.
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30%.
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No big deal.
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No.
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That's a huge, right?
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Cause that misperception is really a problem.
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Here's another one.
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Last one.
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Employers, 70% of employers said that they're accepting of mental health challenges.
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Employees though had a very different perception of that.
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Only 35% felt that way.
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So I think what we're saying is that leaders have to close that gap.
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And realities and perceptions are are really important.
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Perceptions, I've always believed, and I'm not trying to sound superficial, but perceptions
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are much more important than reality.
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So the job of a leader is to close that gap.
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I would love to see that a 100% of employers think they're doing a great job and a 100% of
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employees do.
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And and the same thing is true with, with being available for mental health.
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So you talked about some strategies and I I like it.
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So if you have lived experience, if you've had, you know, like I say, normal things that would
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cause you to need to speak to someone to get that support.
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Right?
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I often say it's start you said it starts with a leader.
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Right?
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So we want, like, you know, I talk about authentic leadership.
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We want that leader to have an awareness that Here she's living their truth, in this space in
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this time around mental well-being.
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So telling their story, What are some other steps that leaders could consider taking to to
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create that more of that, that alignment with perceptions about a mental health and reality
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in some of these workplaces.
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I'm gonna talk about these top tier EAPs and how important that is EAPs are are have been a
21:17
little they've been beaten down a little bit, and that's because I think the partnership EAPs
21:23
in a vacuum don't do well.
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Nothing in the vacuum does well.
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It needs to be a partnership.
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So working with leadership and EAPs to really kind of develop, and it starts with a strategic
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approach to doing this.
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And in some cases, it's really about coaching the leaders on how to be comfortable with that.
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Or if they're not comfortable, which is fine having other members of leadership team talk
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about these things.
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But leaders have to show up.
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As you say, authentic leadership is about showing up.
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When I walk down the hall of my organization, I know that's that doesn't happen that often
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anymore.
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But when I walk down the hall of my organization, I know that people are watching
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And I may have just had something bad to eat that's giving me a little indigestion, but if
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I'm making faces, everybody is thinking the horrible things are happening.
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So being available, being there showing up to work in an authentic way is really important.
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The other is figuring out ways to communicate with people, not lies, not minimize, you know,
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being able to sort of stand up in front of a group and say, here's what's going on.
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To, react to questions in an honest direct way.
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The worst thing you can do is overpromise something when, you know, when you can't really
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give the right answer, that's not a good thing.
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It's always better to say, you know what?
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I don't know, but I'm gonna find out.
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And then make sure you find out and get back to them.
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So creating a communications plan, some kind of an employee engagement plan, Right?
22:54
So in our company, when this started, I don't even remember how many months ago, we
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instituted a 15 to 30 minute every other week, town hall meeting for all of our employees.
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Some of those meetings are merely saying Everything's fine.
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Nothing's going on.
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15 minutes were in and out of there.
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They asked it gave gave people an opportunity to ask questions.
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Here's the irony.
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We never, in all of our history of perspectives, had a 95 to 100% participation.
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At these meetings, which are also we were averaging 95 to 98%.
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People are interested, and they wanna know that you're gonna be able to talk to them as leaders
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and that they're gonna be able to have access you.
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The other thing is to try and figure out in in any way you can to simulate activities that
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normally would occur in your workplace virtual.
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So how do you do that?
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We have virtual cocktail options.
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Right?
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We don't advocate drinking, but we do advocate getting together in Everybody's in their home.
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Just, you know, and we break into breakout rooms.
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Is it perfect, far from it?
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But we're keeping connected.
24:05
We have Actually, we have a committee, a social committee that came up with a topic called the,
24:10
water cooler, meetings, and that's just basically where every week for about 15
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minutes, people can sort of come to the water cooler.
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Right?
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It's a digital or an electronic one.
24:21
We had a a a florist delivered to all of our employees, these, terrariums.
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I don't have mine anymore because I have a black thumb.
24:32
But they literally then we took it out of the box.
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They had an expert Flores teach us how to do it.
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It was a lot of fun.
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It was connect.
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So those kinds of things mixing fun with the ability to share your feelings, some kind of a
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strategic reentry or engagement plan, Those are things that make a huge difference.
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And the other is to really, ensure that you're promoting mental wellness, mental health and
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wellness.
25:00
I I think part of the way to get out of this stigma of mental health is especially now we're
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talking about it being national.
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Worldwide mental su suicide awareness day, tomorrow is is that, you know, we make it okay
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for people to talk about.
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There are so many misconceptions that if you talk about suicide, it will cause people to to
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do it.
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That is not true.
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There's research that category shows that.
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In fact, the opposite is true that it gives people more comfort to talk about it, and
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they're more likely to get help.
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Same thing happens in general.
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So I I just think dealing with mental health, mental wellness, we want a mentally fit
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workplace.
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A place where not where people aren't perfect, but where people feel comfortable not being
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perfect.
25:46
You know, that that old saying that's going around, and I think it's wonderful is we've
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gotta train everybody in our organizations that it's okay to not be okay.
25:55
Absolutely.
25:56
And, you know, the thing is I I think that that's that permissiveness to to discuss
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things.
26:01
Right?
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Like, you know, when you're going through change and we've been in flux, we we're
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enrolling change.
26:07
Right?
26:07
So Let's talk about what's uncomfortable.
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Let's talk about what we're not doing well.
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What's, you know, we're gonna talk at week.
26:13
Yes.
26:13
We can talk about the champions and who's done what.
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But what is it that you did kind of worthy that you'd learned from.
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And how could you share that to say, you know, when I realized, wow, you know, when I haven't
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slept, let's say, and how many people are having problems with sleeping right now.
26:29
Absolutely.
26:29
You
26:29
know, what how do I kinda take care of myself through the day, even though I've still got my
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8, 10 hour day, How do I kinda how might can I be gentle and kind, you know, to be able to
26:40
say, well, you know, I'm going to maybe be camera a little bit more, or maybe I'm going
26:45
to, you know, have my meetings in quiet?
26:48
I'm gonna come back in and out.
26:50
So just sharing those things, I think, is so helpful.
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And I think as the leader does that more, and that, you know, and they see when the leader
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says, you know, I've I haven't had that kind good week and this is kind of what I've been
27:02
doing just to care for myself.
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I always talk about is how is the leader showing or demonstrating his or her capacity to
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understand that I'm under massive pressure.
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I generally am pretty good, but, you know, what I what I've learned this year or this month is
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Wow.
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I need to do this, this, and this a bit more, or this a bit less.
27:23
And in that sharing, like you said, normalizing it, I think then people go, wow.
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The CEO just went through that, and he or she's sharing this.
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How amazing does that get?
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And that modeling and that that, you know, sharing what people start to recognize is if if
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I'm a human being and my CEO or my senior leaders of human being and my manager is a
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normal person, it's okay for me to also share.
27:49
This was such a great interview that we decided to turn it into a 2 part series.
27:53
Be sure to tune in next week for part 2 so you don't miss out on the amazing content.
27:59
Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
28:05
healthy change.
28:06
Roxanne is a keynote speaker psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
28:12
rocksandurhaj.com/blueprint.
28:16
We'll see you next time on authentic living with Roxanne.