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Beyond the Screen: Keith Krueger on What's Next for School Technology · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

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Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
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and let's integrate this. Hey, welcome to the
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Integrate This EdTech podcast. I'm David Berner
0:43
and joined by co -host Jeremy Mikla. And today
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we have with us a special guest, Keith Krueger,
0:50
CEO of COSIN, the Consortium for School Networking.
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We saw Keith not too long ago at the COSIN conference
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in Chicago. Got to all spend a little bit of
1:01
time there. And it was a great conference and
1:05
we're actually looking forward to having this
1:06
conversation with Keith on a number of different
1:09
hot topics, but we first really want to start
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off with just Keith's journey and where Keith
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started and kind of then to where we got to today.
1:19
So, Keith, welcome to the show, first of all.
1:23
Good to be here. And if you don't mind kind of
1:25
kicking things off for us, just telling us your
1:27
journey, because you are like us. You spent some
1:31
time in Minnesota and so you have some some experiences
1:34
here. You're just talking about some friends
1:35
that you met up with from school. So can you
1:38
tell us a little bit about your early days? I
1:40
do. I grew up in Minnesota on the east side of
1:43
Saint Paul going to Harding High School. In fact.
1:47
My family has very strong roots there. My grandfather
1:50
built the house where my father was born, and
1:54
my mother died. And my entire family, except
1:58
for me, I was the black sheep. I went east to
2:01
Washington, DC, which began my journey on policy
2:07
and politics, which I guess there's some logic
2:12
in the fact that when I was in eighth grade and
2:16
we had to do a career day and they said, what
2:19
do you want to do? And I, I for some reason wanted
2:21
to be a city councilman and interviewed the city,
2:24
local city councilman. So I, I have true nerd
2:28
roots all the way to my beginning. Yeah. And,
2:33
um, you, uh, you've been with coasting for a
2:36
while now. Um, and can you tell us like what
2:39
maybe, maybe we could just say, what, what was
2:42
the state of ed tech when you first started?
2:44
Sure. Well, I had worked on Capitol Hill on telecommunications
2:52
policy, and I was not that interested in the
2:56
industry fights. I was more interested in how
2:59
do we use technology to make a difference in
3:02
schools and libraries and healthcare. And the
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state of it was, you know, very early on as the
3:10
early browsers in 1990. to when COSON was founded
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and I started working with them three years later.
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So I've been over 30 years with it. And, you
3:24
know, I think just as I came on board, it was
3:26
why would we want to connect? They said schools,
3:30
but we really argued for classrooms that if you
3:34
only had one connection to a school, that wasn't
3:38
going to be very good instructionally. So it
3:42
was the early days of having a browser, putting
3:45
the world on the internet. And I think we're
3:49
at another one of those big inflection moments
3:51
with AI. Yeah, and just looking at, so Google
3:57
came out in Was it 96, I think? Yeah. And so
4:02
you kind of you've been around for both that
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experience where there was that boom and everybody's
4:08
trying to figure that out. And then you have
4:10
like now this AI boom. What kind of similarities
4:14
do you see there? Just anything? You know, I
4:18
think there are similarities and there are profound
4:21
differences. The similarity is there's always
4:24
the hope that every technology will be transformative.
4:29
Perhaps it is a transformative technology with
4:33
AI, but only if we make sure that we have the
4:37
human involved in it and make sure that we're
4:40
solving real problems. And too often it's sometimes
4:44
been technology in search of a problem. I'll
4:48
also say that what the moment that's changed
4:51
is, you know, for the last 20 years, we could
4:55
have the assumption that most parents, most policymakers
4:58
agreed that connecting everyone to the internet
5:02
was a good thing and making technology as ubiquitous
5:06
as possible. I think we're getting a lot of questions
5:11
in a post -COVID moment. where parents are saying
5:18
we're not liking what we're seeing kids doing
5:22
on screens. And so there's concerns about that.
5:27
And I don't think we've always done a good job
5:29
of talking about how education technology is
5:33
different than social media and cell phones.
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So it is a different moment. Yeah, and I think
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we plan to get into some of that screen time
5:44
discussion here in just a little bit here, but
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Kosen represents technology leaders from across
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more than 2000 different school districts and
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as kind of the organization that represents those
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those people in that CTO type of a role, you
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know, what are the what are the issues that are
6:03
really keeping those leaders up at night? Is
6:06
it screen times or is it is it or are there many
6:10
things? There are many things. In terms of our
6:14
survey, the number one concern and has been for
6:17
eight years is cybersecurity and closely related
6:22
to that is keeping data private and protected.
6:27
Certainly the challenges right now around cutbacks
6:31
and funding sources. And how do we use AI appropriately?
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And that's a fast moving thing. So those are
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some of the the greatest hits from the education
6:43
technology community. Yeah, and that's definitely
6:47
something I know we've seen around here is some
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of the schools that have even been targeted for
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ransom attacks or other cyber attacks. What is
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it that you think makes schools vulnerable to
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those types of incidents? Yeah, and I think it's
7:05
a great question and a lot of parents and maybe
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school board members or superintendents say,
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well, what do we have that's so valuable? And
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we have a lot of information and we have what's
7:17
called a soft target. We're very understaffed.
7:22
Oh, even though we just said that from a chief
7:26
technology officer, it's the number one priority.
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When we ask follow up questions of, well, you
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know, do you even have one full -time equivalent
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dedicated to cybersecurity? Only one in three
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school districts do. So what is the information
7:42
that cyber criminals are trying to get to? And
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we actually do have a lot of information, personal
7:50
identifiable, about students and families. Often
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the school district is the largest employer in
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a community. And so that information is valuable.
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We also know it's a high visibility institution.
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And so when it goes down on the network, that's
8:13
a challenge. In fact, Homeland Security has identified
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K -12 as the number one targeted sector for ransomware.
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So that means we have a lot of information. You
8:31
know, you may say, well, you know, what is it
8:35
about a student that would be valuable? It's
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particularly valuable because they are clean
8:41
credit. And if you can get them and hold the
8:46
data for a couple, a year or two or five, when
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they turn 18, the cyber criminals can in fact
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apply for credit or apply for student loans without
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the family or the student knowing it. So there's
9:02
a real challenge there. Yeah, and I think part
9:06
of that responsibility too of educating, you
9:10
know, people about the different threats and
9:13
being aware is definitely part of that too. But
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are there things that COSIN does? that helps
9:20
the CTO and other leaders within the district
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to, you know, prepare them for not just cyber
9:27
incidents, but other things as well. And I'm
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thinking kind of like the CETL certification
9:31
and things and sharing across different networks
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that will help people stay up to date on the
9:40
most current issues and threats. Yeah, as a professional
9:43
association, we like to say that the greatest
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impediment to effective use of technology is
9:49
primarily human. It's the old if you're old enough
9:52
to remember the Pogo cartoon. I've seen the enemy
9:54
and it is me and so therefore. We've tied to
9:59
a framework of essential skills for the person
10:03
leading technology, and that informs our CETL
10:06
certification, Certified Education Technology
10:10
Leader. It's the only aspirational -based, sector
10:15
-based certification for heads of technology
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in K -12. But on top of that, we have lots, we
10:24
build community and through the community, we
10:27
build tools and resources. So in the area, for
10:30
instance, of cybersecurity, we've taken the NIST
10:34
framework for cybersecurity, which is very, very
10:37
comprehensive and complicated and created a K
10:41
-12 version of how you might use that. We also
10:45
have free tools for things like a tabletop Sometimes
10:50
it's hard to get those who don't have technology
10:54
in their title to care about something like cybersecurity.
10:58
They think it's your problem, not my problem.
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And so by doing a simulation, a desktop experience,
11:06
you can much more clearly identify how these
11:11
things rapidly become involved a lot of people
11:14
and why it's important. And we have a lot of
11:19
other resources in terms of privacy of data.
11:23
We have a legal framework that actually dates
11:27
decades back to the 1970s with FERPA and other
11:32
federal laws. But school district leaders often
11:36
don't know what exactly they should do. So we've
11:40
created a trusted learning environment seal.
11:43
for school districts to achieve. It's 25 practices
11:47
that every school district should do in five
11:51
different domains. And actually now you can get,
11:54
you can make progress by getting a badge in each
11:58
of those five areas if you can't quite get to
12:01
the full certification, the full TLE seal all
12:07
at once. I've seen those tabletop exercise happen
12:11
firsthand. In fact, we've had a couple of different
12:14
opportunities to lead different groups of district
12:18
leaders through some of those, you know, situations
12:22
where, and it's really. It's really something
12:26
to see a superintendent at the table with the
12:30
their districts tech coordinator or CTO and even
12:34
bringing in like physical security people the
12:36
buildings and grounds crew that oftentimes, you
12:39
know are controlling access to the physical ass
12:43
you know, physical access to different buildings
12:47
on their campus and, you know, just seeing them
12:50
come together and then, you know, you'll get
12:52
one of them to say, well, I didn't know that
12:54
that happened when you did this and, you know,
12:58
and like, oh, if this were to happen, how would
13:00
we respond? And if, you know, what would we do
13:04
if that? you know, tech leader was on vacation
13:07
for a week. And, you know, just some of those
13:10
conversations, I think, really help bring the
13:14
leadership together so that they can move forward
13:17
in that, you know, cohesive forward direction.
13:20
And everything kind of now runs on the network.
13:23
So your doors, your locks, your security cameras,
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and we're seeing back systems here. Exactly.
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And so, you know, The facility crew may not understand
13:37
that leaving the security code open to the prefactory
13:42
password isn't a good idea. The HVAC system runs
13:48
on the network. And if once the cyber criminals
13:52
are in your network, they can access anything.
13:58
So Keith, as you've kind of been There's a number
14:02
of different issues, but if we dig into AI a
14:05
little bit more, one of the things that you've
14:08
been doing is working with the Stanford's Graduate
14:11
School of Education. And so as you've done that,
14:15
what are some of the things that are coming out
14:18
of there that you think districts are needing
14:20
to hear right now at this time with artificial
14:23
intelligence? Yeah, and I think one thing is
14:26
you need to design things to have the human brain.
14:31
lead with the human, the AI on the side to support
14:35
the human, to support the teacher, to support
14:38
the administrator, rather than replace. That's
14:42
not a helpful framing to think about. And one
14:46
of the things we at COSON have been, again, you
14:50
know, there's a lot of focus on AI literacy,
14:53
a lot of focus on AI cheating. We can come back
14:56
to that. But one thing COSON's been trying to
14:59
do is to help school leaders think more holistically,
15:04
because AI is not one thing. It's going to touch
15:07
everything in terms of the enterprise of the
15:12
school district. And so how do you think about
15:16
how you're going to use AI to do our jobs better,
15:20
whether it's on the administrative side, maybe
15:24
bus schedules or helping teachers do lesson planning
15:29
or things that make their job better. It's easy
15:34
to, not easy, but I think there's a tendency
15:38
to jump in to the classroom conversation, which
15:44
is probably the hardest one to figure out. That's
15:49
not to say we shouldn't figure out that, but
15:52
there are some low -hanging fruit around the
15:56
use of AI that probably would help the life of
16:01
teachers and administrators and the way that
16:04
they communicate with parents in ways that are
16:08
really low -hanging fruit. Can you give us some
16:13
insights, too, just on Like the US Department
16:17
of Education has some AI grant initiatives and
16:21
there's, so as far as like funding for schools,
16:25
is there a best approach to how some of the funding
16:30
can work for schools to be able to utilize AI
16:34
for their teachers and or their students? Or
16:38
what are you seeing on the funding side of things?
16:40
On the funding side, the administration has indicated
16:45
that AI literacy and preparedness is a priority.
16:50
And so all of the competitive grants, you can
16:55
be thinking about how exactly AI might change
17:00
things right now. So I would be. I would be watching
17:04
for all of those existing competitive programs
17:10
and seeing how you how you might use that to
17:13
advance your AI with it within the classroom
17:18
or or within your school system. OK, yeah, and.
17:24
A lot of districts are well like they're still
17:27
trying to figure out what they're going to do.
17:28
I mean, we still have. They're kind of all over
17:30
the place in terms of, you know. even just with
17:33
banning it or, you know, allowing it and how
17:35
do you approach that kind of thing? Do you feel
17:39
like we're starting to see some light at the
17:43
end of the tunnel, I guess you could say as far
17:45
as like what is responsible use? I don't know
17:51
if it's light at the end of the tunnel, but we
17:52
are definitely seeing movement and progress.
17:56
We do an annual survey. We've been doing it now
17:59
for many years. I think it's the 17th year and
18:03
there is some interesting data of the last three
18:06
years showing, you know, just two years ago,
18:10
very few school districts had any guidance around
18:13
AI. We've seen a lot of progress in that area
18:17
now. You can look at other surveys and teachers
18:21
will still say they're not being trained or prepared,
18:24
but I will say from a school district perspective,
18:28
they are putting emphasis on updating existing
18:33
guidance, for instance, acceptable use policies.
18:38
What does that look like in an AI world? In COSON,
18:43
along with ISTE and ATLAS, which is the Independent
18:47
School Technology Association, we put out a new
18:51
updated responsible use guidance resource that's
18:57
free and on our website. We also see school districts
19:01
updating their academic integrity policies. You
19:05
hear a lot of concerns around cheating. And you
19:10
mentioned Stanford. They did some fascinating
19:13
research a couple years ago. They had surveyed
19:17
students the year before CHAT GPT. And high school
19:22
students and middle school students admitted,
19:25
you know, it's 75, 85 % of students saying, yes,
19:30
we cheat. Well, statistically, it was exactly
19:33
the same the next every year since. with AI.
19:38
Now students may be more efficient, get a better
19:42
answer with AI, but we've had a cheating problem
19:46
for a long time. And so I think thinking about,
19:50
you know, is it really that we have an AI cheating
19:53
problem or is it that we have a cheating problem?
19:56
And so updating those academic integrity policies
20:01
in an AI world. is a critical thing, and that
20:05
means there has to be consequences when you're
20:09
told not to use AI tools and you use them. There
20:13
has to be disclosure if you're using them. So
20:17
some of those things I think we're seeing a lot
20:19
of progress on. A few school districts are creating
20:24
freestanding AI policy, but that's probably not
20:28
the majority yet. And we're starting to see school
20:32
districts thinking about their policies around
20:36
data use and governance and what does that look
20:39
like in an AI world? It's all very complicated.
20:44
And I think expecting that we're going to have
20:48
an answer to all these or whatever today's answer
20:52
is may be different next week, next month, next
20:55
year. Do you feel encouraged by the, we see a
21:00
lot of different organizations putting out um,
21:04
ideas or examples of how these things could be
21:07
done. Kosen included, right? I mean, Kosen has
21:10
the maturity matrix of looking at gen AI, you
21:14
know, from a whole organizational standpoint
21:16
in these seven different domains. And then you
21:18
have other organizations, um, that are focused
21:21
really on heavily on AI literacy piece or things
21:25
like that. And you have, so do you feel encouraged
21:28
by the, um, the different amounts and those that
21:33
are offering these free resources out to districts?
21:38
Sometimes there can be confusion that's caused
21:43
too, especially with AI and how there's so many
21:47
things available, tools included. There are all
21:50
these different tools, but do you feel encouraged
21:52
by the? just the exploration of the different
21:56
things that people. I am encouraged in the fact
21:59
that I think the education community, the nonprofits
22:03
that serve education have worked hard to create
22:09
resources. It's probably overwhelming for the
22:13
average district or teacher. So one of the reasons
22:18
I like our maturity model is it It first of all
22:22
gives you a comprehensive assessment and there's
22:25
some self assessment tools that you can use.
22:29
to see where you're moving along and where you're
22:32
not, but there's also a prioritization. You can't
22:36
do everything at once. And so what is it that's
22:40
the most important thing from the school system
22:44
perspective? You know, starting with the superintendent
22:47
and the cabinet and prioritizing what are the
22:52
areas that we're really going to focus on because
22:54
you can't do it all at once. Okay, so Keith,
22:58
kind of sticking on this AI theme that we've
23:00
been on here a little bit, I just want to switch
23:02
the lens here a little bit and bring more of
23:04
an accessibility and equity frame to the conversation
23:08
here. Colson's AI and Accessibility and Education
23:12
Report argued that AI holds significant promise
23:15
for students with disabilities, but only if developers
23:18
build accessibility in from the start. So how
23:23
wide do you think the gap is currently between
23:26
what we want to see developers do and what they're
23:31
actually doing? Yeah, it's a great question.
23:34
And I think we've tried to partner with our friends
23:38
at Cast and the rest of the... Excuse me. Sorry,
23:45
maybe I should start over. Sorry. No worries.
23:50
This is why we record. If you need to hear anything,
23:54
you can. Yeah, I don't have any. I don't have
23:58
anything right here. Hold on one second. Yeah,
24:00
no worries. I'm just going to put this in once
24:06
so you can. He can pick it up when we get back,
24:11
Jeremy, and then I'm just going to mark it here.
24:14
Yeah. OK, I'm back. So accessibility and AI is
24:22
a critical, critical topic. And we've tried to
24:25
partner with our friends who are really experts
24:29
on accessibility at CAST and other organizations.
24:35
And, you know, there is kind of a thoughtful
24:39
vision around what the possibilities are. I think
24:43
we're always... and hope that things will move
24:48
faster. But the opportunities are incredible
24:55
now, not only with special needs, but with language,
25:00
with just a whole host of the ability to customize
25:05
content for the unique needs of each learner.
25:12
If we don't lean into that, we're making a big
25:14
mistake. And I think what we are starting to
25:19
be very concerned about is some of the pushback
25:24
on technology and what implications it might
25:28
have for the accessibility community. You know,
25:33
kids with special needs have... special technologies
25:41
that help them learn. And so when we have blanket
25:45
kind of pronouncements that all screens are bad,
25:50
well, there are kids that the only way they may
25:53
learn is in front of a screen. And so we have
25:57
to be much more thoughtful, I think, about some
26:00
of these emerging concerns. Yeah, I can think
26:05
of, you know, several examples where, you know,
26:08
technology for a lot of students can really be
26:10
used to help accelerate their learning or to
26:12
help accommodate their learning. And I think
26:15
one of the roadblocks that I think from a classroom
26:18
teacher perspective, and I think back to my time
26:22
in the classroom as well, that a lot of it, I
26:24
wanted to customize learning much more to the
26:28
granular level of an individual student, but
26:30
it came down to time. And I couldn't really spend
26:36
that much time customizing 30 different plans
26:40
for 30 different students. But one of the things
26:43
that AI might be able to do is to step in and
26:45
maybe create some different opportunities or
26:48
choices that students might be able to decide
26:52
what is the best path for me to learn this particular.
26:57
topic or objective or standard. And I think,
27:00
you know, you mentioned CAST, and they've, I
27:02
think, done a lot of great work with advancing
27:05
UDL. And I think that's ultimately what we're
27:08
getting here, too, is that can now be a much
27:12
more realistic possibility for that classroom
27:14
teacher. Yeah, exactly. And you think about the
27:18
languages that students have and the languages
27:20
that parents and guardians have and the ability
27:24
to much better communicate, not just in English,
27:27
but in what their native languages. One of the
27:34
things here, too, and it's along these lines
27:36
of communication here, is according to the ADA
27:40
and districts have now been given a reprieve
27:43
of one year to fully make their online websites
27:47
and presence and records fully accessible. How
27:52
are districts doing in that process? Do they
27:54
need that extra year? Are they thankful for it
27:57
or are they still not? Most school districts
27:59
are very thankful for it, but what I think superintendents
28:05
and heads of technology need to realize that
28:07
the year goes by fast or Excuse me, two years
28:11
if you're smaller. But ultimately, everything
28:16
that you're facing out in terms of your website
28:21
and whatever needs to be much more accessible.
28:25
And that is still a requirement. And I think
28:30
many educators and leaders haven't yet focused
28:34
on. And so hopefully with education service agencies
28:40
like yours, they can get up to speed much faster,
28:44
and hopefully they're building things going forward
28:48
that is. I know we've gone through that journey
28:52
here at COSON, and we're a relatively small staffed
28:56
organization, but having the training and building
29:02
things to be accessible going forward is so much
29:06
easier than retrograding and fixing problems
29:10
that aren't. All right, so Keith, as another
29:17
thing that's coming up with the schools are dealing
29:20
with. So not that there's there's many things
29:23
that we've kind of discovered here, but another
29:26
thing that has come up more recently and has
29:30
districts trying to figure out what to do about
29:33
this is the screen time debate. and legislation
29:36
around that. So as you've, and you've had an
29:40
opportunity to engage with some Congress committees
29:44
on that as well. And so can you at first just
29:48
kind of inform us and help us understand like,
29:51
what was the, how did you get drawn into that
29:55
conversation to testify there at Congress for
30:00
that debate? Well, the conversation really has
30:04
been happening over the last two to three years.
30:07
Jonathan Haidt put out a book, The Anxious Generation,
30:12
and the focus was really on cell phones and social
30:19
media. But over the last few months, excuse me,
30:25
I'm sorry, the conversation has broadened. to
30:31
all screens are bad. And there are legitimate
30:37
concerns that parents and policymakers have around
30:42
the use of screens, even at school. But perhaps
30:48
we haven't done the best job at explaining the
30:52
difference between education technology and these
30:56
more consumer personal devices and social media.
31:02
And we certainly do want students and their parents
31:08
to not be as focused on distraction. But what
31:13
we want to focus on is instructionally designed,
31:17
well thought out education interventions that
31:24
improve student learning. And unfortunately,
31:29
we're in a moment where everything is kind of
31:33
being put together as though all screens are
31:38
bad. And we were just talking about accessibility,
31:41
that there are students who can only learn with
31:45
assistive technologies. And I think... The way
31:51
that the debate has been framed has been around
31:55
minutes and hours or bands, as opposed to quality.
31:59
And I think we need to reframe that conversation
32:02
to say, not every use of technology is appropriate
32:07
at every moment. should not be in front of a
32:12
screen all the time. And in fact, they aren't
32:14
at school. They need to have time out in the
32:18
playground. They need to have time with Play
32:19
-Doh. They need to create other things. But there's
32:23
a good reason why we have technology that's more
32:27
easily accessible. And sometimes we forget the
32:30
fact of how did we get here? We wanted to have
32:34
a ubiquitous environment that's robust. to enable
32:38
kids to have a more personalized learning. And
32:42
yes, there are sometimes, some places, some teachers
32:47
are using technology as digital babysitters.
32:50
And maybe we need to be more clear that that's
32:53
not appropriate. But there are great ways that
32:57
we've seen where technology can, in fact, make
33:00
a big difference. And We need to be much more
33:06
intentional and thoughtful in talking to parents
33:09
and school board members and superintendents
33:13
about why we're using technology. Yeah, and I
33:17
think I think you kind of covered all that really
33:20
well with just the it's not that all screen time
33:23
is bad. It's just that there there is a there
33:27
should be a purpose and a design to using screens
33:30
for instructional time. And I like what you said,
33:33
too, about it. Unfortunately, you are going to
33:36
have where it's sometimes used as a babysitter,
33:38
but we need to really talk about the nuance there
33:43
of when is a good time for screen use and why
33:45
does it help aid students in what they're trying
33:48
to do and prepare them for the future as they
33:51
continue on? Because if you just ban them all
33:54
outright, the reality still is there where they're
33:57
still going to be using it as we do. for our
33:59
jobs as we continue on and leave school, right?
34:04
And there are efforts to go back to paper and
34:07
pencil. Well, not every use of paper and pencil
34:10
is quality. So let's evaluate these things, which
34:15
is a better way of teaching and learning. I've
34:18
been around a long time, and so I think back
34:21
to the television debates. And there's a big
34:24
difference between the Simpsons and Sesame Street.
34:29
Sesame Street was instructionally designed. So,
34:33
no, we don't want a Simpson -like education technology
34:37
in our classroom, but we probably do want instructionally
34:41
designed things like Sesame Street or Schoolhouse
34:44
Rock. You know, we have to have a more thoughtful
34:50
conversation. And unfortunately, counting minutes
34:53
or pushing for bands is easy, but it probably
34:57
isn't the right the right way to go. Yeah, and
35:02
one of the things that Kosen has done is you've
35:07
published a policy briefing on that for state
35:10
leaders to understand this debate, right, and
35:13
what's going on. And so what is the number one
35:19
thing that you think is important to get across
35:21
to school and district leaders about this so
35:26
that they have a good understanding of what's
35:31
going on with these bills that are being... I
35:34
think there's a... We have to... We certainly
35:36
have to start by saying there are legitimate
35:39
concerns. Secondly, we have to say that there's
35:43
a difference between consumer technology and
35:48
educational technology. And what we're arguing
35:52
for is... tying that use of technology for an
35:57
instructional purpose and making sure that we
35:59
have quality and we're not arguing around just
36:04
quantity. Yeah, and then on the opposite side,
36:08
we have where there are folks that are going
36:11
to be voting on these type of things. What do
36:14
you think that any governor or state legislature
36:18
should understand before casting a vote for that
36:23
to on one of these bills? I think there's been
36:26
a real rush to judgment in the last few months
36:30
in state legislatures around the country, you
36:34
know, where they're putting age limits on any
36:37
technology, you know, particularly at the youngest
36:41
grades and then at higher middle school and high
36:44
school, putting time limits, saying, you know,
36:49
45 minutes or an hour. And I'm not sure that
36:53
policymakers understand the reality of how complicated
36:57
that would be, for instance, at a middle or high
37:00
school where you have multiple teachers. How
37:03
exactly do you divide up? And it's just the wrong
37:06
question. It's not getting to whether we're using
37:10
the technology in a way that advances education.
37:14
So. Sometimes we have to take a deep breath.
37:18
We have to admit there are legitimate concerns
37:22
around distraction, around mental health use
37:27
of social media, but that shouldn't be confused
37:33
with hopefully the way that we're using technology
37:36
in our schools. I know schools have control over
37:41
the things or they desire to have control over
37:44
the things that happen within their buildings
37:49
and within their scheduled times of day, but
37:52
kids have, you know, and kids spend a significant
37:54
amount of time in school. They also spend a significant
37:58
amount of time outside of school. under the supervision
38:03
of their parental unit or guardian, whatever
38:07
that happens to be for their situation with their
38:09
family. But how can schools work with parents
38:13
so that we want to see kids coming into school
38:18
that are getting messages that the parents support
38:21
what schools are doing. And we want to make sure
38:23
that schools can be there to support the things
38:26
that parents want for their students at the same
38:29
time. Well, I hear a lot of stories of where
38:33
parents have found out that their student or
38:37
another student has been exposed to some inappropriate
38:40
materials, pornography or whatever. And I think
38:45
school district leaders, heads of technology,
38:49
need to better explain that when you're on the
38:52
school network, when you're on a school provided
38:54
device, it is in fact filtered. Now, that's not
38:58
to say the kids don't try to break it, that the
39:02
filters don't fail, but I can say without a question
39:05
that in most cases, your child is a lot safer
39:10
on a school -provided school network than they
39:13
are on a personal device at home. And so we need
39:19
to better explain that in fact there is a legal
39:24
requirement. Every school district that gets
39:28
e -right funding requires compliance with the
39:31
Children's Internet Protection Act. So that is
39:35
a fundamental requirement. And I don't think
39:39
that there's a presumption that, and a lot of
39:45
times, you know, if kids are using things that
39:51
aren't on the school network, they do have access
39:54
to a lot of things that are inappropriate. And
39:57
we've got to do, we have to have a partnership
40:00
with parents to help them understand ways to
40:03
limit screens on personal time and including
40:08
for themselves as role models for their children.
40:15
Yeah, and I've seen some of that too. I think
40:18
even within raising my own kids Is that what
40:23
I what they see me doing they they're following,
40:26
you know and being that model You know both in
40:30
the classroom as the teacher but then also as
40:32
the parent and you know setting that expectation
40:35
in fact, I think one of the The parts of Jonathan
40:40
Haidt's book, Anxious Generation, that I really
40:43
appreciated was his emphasis on play. And the
40:47
students getting the opportunity to have that
40:50
self -directed play where they need to work out
40:53
their own rules, work out their own disputes,
40:57
and really become that... that grown -up that
41:03
we want them to become because they know how
41:05
to work with people, they know how to deal with
41:07
stressful situations, they know how to compromise,
41:10
and they know how to still have fun. And I know
41:13
he took, I think, some of that from the book,
41:18
Stolen Focus, by, I think, Johann Hari. that
41:22
I see parallels between those different things.
41:26
And schools can do that, I think, within certain
41:28
moments. But it also needs to happen when they're
41:31
outside the buildings. Right. Completely agree.
41:38
And helping parents understand what their role
41:42
is. Not that we're dumping all responsibility
41:45
on them, but they have to be a partner in this
41:48
effort. And yeah. And I think, I know we'll be
41:55
coming out with some better toolkits on how to
41:59
have that conversation with parents at a PTA
42:02
meeting or with the school board at the school
42:06
board meeting. Yeah, so Keith, let's kind of
42:11
switch gears here a little bit, you know, considering
42:13
that we have such an expert on federal policy
42:16
when it comes to technology and education. In
42:21
2025, President Trump signed an executive order
42:24
aimed at blocking states from crafting their
42:26
own AI regulations. From your vantage point,
42:30
representing school districts, what's the risk
42:33
of a regulatory vacuum or making it so that you
42:38
have 50 different state approaches? I think there's
42:44
a framing. at the national level that we are
42:48
going to fall behind China or other countries.
42:53
And what worries me from a education perspective
42:57
is we have a responsibility first and foremost
43:01
to keep kids safe. And so we shouldn't be deploying,
43:07
we can't have a Silicon Valley mindset of try
43:13
it out, break it, fix it. because these are kids.
43:17
And so I think we have to be very thoughtful
43:19
about how we do that. That doesn't mean we need
43:24
to prohibit everything, but we need to test things
43:27
out in safe ways, in sandboxes and things like
43:32
that, virtual sandboxes, I guess I should say,
43:37
to make sure that they play out the way we do.
43:40
And I think we have seen some problematic you
43:45
know, AI chat bots that have given bad advice
43:49
to students or not responded to the crisis that
43:54
they were creating, they were skating. And so
43:58
these things really have to be designed in a
44:01
way that is safe and effective. Yeah. You mentioned
44:08
a little bit earlier, too, E -Rate, where a lot
44:11
of public schools get their funding to help for
44:14
their technology initiatives and infrastructure
44:17
that they have in place. And how much of a threat
44:20
is E -Rate under in our current political world
44:26
that we live in? That's a great question. You're
44:29
right. E -Rate is the number one funding source
44:32
for education technology and has been. Excuse
44:37
me. And last year we were very concerned because
44:43
there was a Supreme Court case striking at the
44:47
constitutionality of E -Rate and actual all of
44:52
universal service. E -Rate is part of a program
44:56
that's been around for 70 years, connecting rural
44:59
America to basic telephone service. Excuse me.
45:06
Fortunately, the Supreme Court in a 6 -3 decision
45:10
said it absolutely is constitutional. And so
45:15
the threat to that has been stopped in terms
45:22
of the threat of being declared unconstitutional.
45:27
There are other significant challenges, and they're
45:31
long -standing ones around the funding base.
45:35
You know, it's historically been a tax on long
45:38
-distance charges, and there's increasing costs
45:44
to connect schools, libraries, health care facilities,
45:48
rural America, and yet the funding base has stayed
45:52
the same as if it was 20 years ago. And so some
45:57
of us are some of our organizations are working
46:01
together to try to encourage Congress to fix
46:04
the contribution factor. And that's a little
46:08
geeky and not that interesting for educators,
46:11
but critical that we solve the funding base for
46:15
it. Yeah, I mean, it absolutely is critical because
46:19
if you're not going to get the funding for it,
46:21
then teachers aren't going to be able to implement
46:23
it in the classroom. Exactly. Exactly. You know,
46:26
we're very lucky When I go around the world,
46:31
other places are shocked that we have every classroom
46:38
and has broadband pretty much to every school
46:46
and classroom in the country, and it's done in
46:49
a pretty affordable way. So Keith, we've talked
46:54
about a number of different things. And so as
46:56
you start to look at the road ahead and what's
47:00
next for EdTech, if you could give every district
47:05
technology leader just one piece of advice, if
47:08
that's all you could give them for navigating
47:10
the next two years, AI, screen time policy, budgets,
47:17
all these different things that we've touched
47:19
upon. What would you say for advice to give them?
47:26
I think you need community. You need to find
47:28
your peers. Often the education technology leader
47:32
is the only person in a school district thinking
47:35
about some of these things. And so you get involved
47:39
in either the state chapter or the national of
47:43
Kosen. I think also you're going to have to.
47:48
do a better job of communicating why we're using
47:52
technology, the questions, and if you answer
47:58
them in a non -defensive way and are legitimate
48:02
that we haven't always used technology in the
48:06
perfect way. We can't leave kids behind. We can't
48:10
wait till they're 18 until we put them in a world
48:15
where they have tools and resources. So that's
48:23
where I'd start. And I think with money, with
48:26
financial challenges that many school districts
48:29
are facing, we're going to have to prioritize
48:35
what is the most important and impactful things
48:38
that have a difference in terms of teaching and
48:41
learning. And we're going to have to make sure
48:44
that superintendents and school boards are our
48:46
partners in that effort. Yeah, and I think that's
48:50
great advice. But we're kind of nearing the end
48:53
of our time here together, Keith. And so I want
48:56
to prepare you for our lightning round that we
48:58
have coming up here. David and I will alternate
49:01
some questions here that we'll ask of you. And
49:04
you can feel free to give a one word or a one
49:07
sentence response or one paragraph. however you'd
49:11
like to elaborate here, but I'm gonna kick it
49:13
off here with the first question for you. And
49:16
it is one that I hope sets an optimistic tone
49:20
here, but what gives you genuine hope about the
49:23
future of public education and technology? What
49:26
keeps you energized? I sit on a board with all
49:33
the other national organizations, teacher unions,
49:36
school boards, superintendents, principals, I
49:41
don't think it's always conveyed to the public,
49:44
but they actually agree on an awful lot of things
49:46
about where we wanna go, how we wanna prepare
49:49
our kids for workforce development. And so I
49:55
am optimistic in the sense that I think people
49:58
can, they don't agree on every single thing,
50:03
but. They agree on many critical, important things,
50:07
and we need to better convey that to parents
50:10
and policymakers. All right. I have a really
50:14
tough one here next for you, Keith. What did
50:16
you want to be when you grew up? Well, if it
50:20
wasn't a politician, how about that? Yes. Unfortunately,
50:24
I don't know. As I said, for career day, I went
50:30
and interviewed the mayor of St. Paul. So my
50:34
nerdness, I didn't quite make it there, but I
50:37
did get into policy and politics. You know, assuming
50:42
that politician probably wasn't your first job,
50:44
what was Young Keith doing in high school? In
50:47
high school, the Minnesota State Fair was my
50:50
very first job. I worked at the Prime Steakhouse,
50:56
busing tables. It was not the most exciting job.
51:00
My best friend, his uncle, owned that, and he
51:03
got to be in the ice cream parlor that was connected
51:06
to it, which was a much better job. So I learned
51:09
quickly, it's all in who you know. All right,
51:13
what's your your current guilty pleasure TV show
51:17
or movie right now? I Just finished hacks on
51:22
HBO and I loved it. I thought it was very Clever
51:28
and funny What's the best meal you've ever had?
51:35
Or a certain type of food is that you go to if
51:37
you can't recall the the one time I love, like,
51:44
Thai food. I find it... I just like it. What's
51:54
something people would be surprised to know about
51:55
you? I went from Beijing to Ulaanbaatar in Mongolia
52:08
on the... the Trans Mongolian train, which is
52:12
a 36 hour train ride through the mountains and
52:17
planes of kind of looks like of Montana, big
52:22
sky country. Cool, cool. If David and I were
52:27
hosting a conference and it's going to be tomorrow
52:30
and you're keynoting it and you're standing backstage
52:33
and we have someone says. Keith what's gonna
52:36
be your your walk -up song as we we send you
52:39
out onto stage to get the audience all riled
52:41
up What would you want played? Well, it probably
52:44
has to be Elton John's he's still standing Good
52:52
all right this one this next one's rapid -fire.
52:54
This is our this or that portion So you can only
52:57
choose one and so we'll just go through these
53:00
early bird or night owl early bird Alright, road
53:06
trip or flight? I tend to avoid road trips or
53:11
flight. Cook at home or eat out? I'll say cook
53:18
at home. Text or call? Call. Mountains or beach?
53:28
Mountains, in the winter at least, or skiing.
53:32
And the last one to leave the party or first
53:35
one out the door? Probably the last one out of
53:38
party. My spouse would definitely say that. Well,
53:43
Keith, it's been a pleasure having you here and
53:46
we just want to give you a little bit of a time
53:49
here that if you want to share anything out where
53:52
people could contact you or get a hold of Kosen
53:55
or if you have anything in the near future coming
53:58
up that you'd like to promote, you know, we want
54:00
to give you the stage. Sure. Well, we have lots
54:04
of things on our website at coson .org, and I
54:08
would particularly mention our updated Responsible
54:13
Use Guide that we put out last month that helpfully
54:18
will help people take their traditional acceptable
54:21
use policies, which were all about a bunch of
54:24
don'ts, and think about the do's. Perfect. Well,
54:30
Keith, it's been a pleasure. We hope to connect
54:33
with you again here soon. It sounds like we're
54:35
going to be at a couple of similar places coming
54:38
up this month. Looking forward to it. Looking
54:41
forward to St. Cloud for the AI Summit. Yeah,
54:45
we'll see you there. Thanks, Keith. Thanks for
54:49
listening to Integrate This. Want to take your
54:52
learning further? Head over to our YouTube channel
54:54
for quick tutorials, deep dives, and more edtech
54:58
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55:12
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