Latest / The Joe Rogan Experience / #2513 - Dean Radin

Transcript

#2513 - Dean Radin · The Joe Rogan Experience

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Joe Roman podcast.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: Check it out the Joe Rogan Experience showIn My Day.
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  Speaker 1: Joe Rogan podcast, by Night, all Day. Thank you for
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  Speaker 1: being yet, it's good to be here. I'm excited to
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: talk to you. Did you maybe manifest this conversation somehow?
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  Speaker 1: Maybe I've seen a bunch of your talks online? And
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  Speaker 1: the first of all, let's start from the beginning, like
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  Speaker 1: what is your background?
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  Speaker 2: I thought i'd give you a forty five year arc. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: in about three minutes, perfect, because then there's a lot
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: of places you can get into it. So I started
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  Speaker 2: out as a musician violin up until about halfway through college,
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  Speaker 2: and then I realized to be a musician means you
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  Speaker 2: have to be an athlete, because you're making your living
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  Speaker 2: with your body. No one told me that up through
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  Speaker 2: until I finally decide I don't think I want to
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  Speaker 2: make my living with my body because I've never been
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  Speaker 2: very strong. And more importantly, you also need to have
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  Speaker 2: a lot of stamina, and I didn't.
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  Speaker 1: Have that, and you weren't interested in gaining it.
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  Speaker 2: I couldn't. I have a genetic mutation that creates it.
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  Speaker 2: Like most people, when the exercise, you feel really good, afterwards,
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  Speaker 2: I feel really exhausted, and I never understood why until
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  Speaker 2: many years later I realize that I have something called
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  Speaker 2: You'll Bear syndrome, which is a mutation of a liver
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  Speaker 2: enzyme and you have no recovery time.
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  Speaker 1: WHOA, yeah, so is there anything.
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  Speaker 2: They can do for that other than something like genetic engineering,
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  Speaker 2: which I've never heard anybody try yet.
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  Speaker 1: The answer is no, I've never heard of that condition before.
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  Speaker 1: I don't think.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's some missing enzymes, and more importantly, the Billy rubin,
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  Speaker 2: which is unconjugated billy rubin. You have way too much
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: of it, so there's an upside in the downside. The
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  Speaker 2: downside is that you can't cover from exercise quickly, and
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  Speaker 2: so there's a lot of fatigue it happens. The upside
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  Speaker 2: is that unconjugated Billy rubin is an antioxidant. It's one
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  Speaker 2: of the most natural antioxidant. So my cardiovascular system is
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  Speaker 2: like a twenty year old.
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  Speaker 1: Oh so you got your pros and your cons with this. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Have you ever tried exercising in very small doses, like
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  Speaker 1: throughout the day?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I walk every day, so that's that's my primary exercise.
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  Speaker 1: That's always great. Exercise.
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  Speaker 2: If I walk too fast, too hard, I will feel
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  Speaker 2: it for the next three or four days.
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  Speaker 1: Wow. So too fast, too hard, too long. Yeah. So
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  Speaker 1: what if you do like two push ups and then
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  Speaker 1: just do two push ups like four hours later, and
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  Speaker 1: then two push ups like four hours later.
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  Speaker 2: I can do that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can do seven push ups.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Maybe that's the move. Maybe the move is just
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  Speaker 1: make yourself do things very lightly throughout the day, just
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  Speaker 1: to keep your bone mass and all that good stuff
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: that we lose when we get older. Yeah, you know what,
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  Speaker 1: it sounds like. There's a pro the cardiovascular benefits pretty sweet.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So when you get to a certain age, your
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  Speaker 2: doctor says, let's take a cardiac calcium scan to see
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  Speaker 2: what are your arteries doing. And the range is from
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  Speaker 2: zero so they don't see anything in there up to
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  Speaker 2: one hundred, where you're basically about to die. So my
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  Speaker 2: doctor did, said, does do that because your cholesterol is
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  Speaker 2: like off, it's way too high and I have zero?
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  Speaker 2: Oh wow, and say, well, how could you have zero?
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: Because I'm seventy four. I should not be zero, but
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  Speaker 2: I do. And it's because of this.
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  Speaker 1: It's really good for seventy four. Thank you you do
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  Speaker 1: you look like maybe fifteen twenty years younger than you're
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  Speaker 1: supposed to look.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's the other advantage of this particular mutation
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  Speaker 2: is longevity.
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  Speaker 1: Damn Son, Well, that's good. This is a positive to it.
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  Speaker 1: So violinists, can I ask you this totally unrelated, What
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  Speaker 1: is the difference between vinylin and a fiddle.
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  Speaker 2: Well, violin is a career track towards concert violinist. So
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  Speaker 2: it's classical music.
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  Speaker 1: So it's how you play it.
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  Speaker 2: It's partially how you play it, but it's mostly about
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  Speaker 2: the nature of the music that you're playing.
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  Speaker 1: So is it just how it's referred in different cultures
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  Speaker 1: like in southern music, it would be a fiddle.
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  Speaker 2: It's also style. It's style, and it's also the intonation,
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  Speaker 2: like if you're did like I did. I transitioned from
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  Speaker 2: classical violin when I knew I wasn't going to do
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  Speaker 2: that as a career into bluegrass fiddle and banjo, So
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  Speaker 2: actually ended up playing twenty five years, the last five
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  Speaker 2: years being bluegrass, and so there I actually had to
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  Speaker 2: learn not to play that well, like you, it sounds
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  Speaker 2: better for bluegrass if you're a little bit off tune
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  Speaker 2: and you're not holding right, and.
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  Speaker 1: It's authentic, yes, scratchy, yeah, something too. So.
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  Speaker 2: In fact, in graduate school, I was in the competition
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  Speaker 2: for the Illinois State Fiddler Contest, and so I was
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  Speaker 2: probably twenty five or something at the time, and Alison
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  Speaker 2: Krause was like a teenager and she was in the
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  Speaker 2: same competition and I lost miserably and she was incredible
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  Speaker 2: even at that time. Who is she Alison Krause?
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  Speaker 1: I don't know who she is. Sorry, she is a
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  Speaker 1: you know who she is, Jamie.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's a very very well known somewhere between country singer.
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  Speaker 2: But she plays the violin and the fiddle and is
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  Speaker 2: a fantastic voice.
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  Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, if you heard if you heard one of her songs,
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  Speaker 2: I'm sure you would know it.
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  Speaker 1: Have you made me name a fiddler? I would say, Well,
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: The Devil Went Down to Georgia was the first time
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  Speaker 1: like America really understood like popular culture, like the fiddle
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  Speaker 1: got introduced. Is that fair to say? Yeah? Yeah, like
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  Speaker 1: that for a lot of people. That song, that Charlie
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  Speaker 1: Daniels junior song, Right, that's that's the fiddle.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's like is that good? Well? Yeah, it was
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  Speaker 2: pretty good. It's a little bit like fiddle on steroids.
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  Speaker 1: But yeah, but I mean, like as a fiddler. Do
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  Speaker 1: you hear that? Or is it like only for the
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  Speaker 1: unwashed masses that think that's good?
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  Speaker 2: No, no, it's good good fiddling. Yeah, yeah, it's fiddling around.
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  Speaker 1: It's a beautiful instrument. Sorry for the sidetrack.
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  Speaker 2: So okay, So I did that for twenty years or so,
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  Speaker 2: and then in the middle of college, I decided, I
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  Speaker 2: think I want to get a job where I could
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  Speaker 2: use my mind instead of my body. So I switched
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  Speaker 2: into electrical engineering. Why because I like to take stuff
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  Speaker 2: apart and I used to make things in high school.
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  Speaker 2: So then I didn't know what I wanted to do
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  Speaker 2: after I got my degree, so I went on to
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  Speaker 2: get a master's in electrical engineering, and then I didn't
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  Speaker 2: want to be an electrical engineer anymore, so I got
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  Speaker 2: a PhD and experimental psychology. And so it sounds like
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: flipping back and forth between lots of different things, and
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  Speaker 2: it kind of is. But you'll see that my career
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  Speaker 2: is a little bit like a game show and that
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  Speaker 2: you're resented with this is what you could do like forever,
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  Speaker 2: or you can choose door number two. And I almost
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: always chose door number two because like, I would do
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  Speaker 2: this for a while and say I could sort of
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  Speaker 2: understand that now I want to do something different door
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: number two. So as a senior in college, I learned
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  Speaker 2: about this place called the Institute of Noetic Sciences, which
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  Speaker 2: was started by Apollo fourteen astronaut edgar Mitchell, who was
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  Speaker 2: the sixth man on the Moon and on the way
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  Speaker 2: back to the Earth. He had a mystical experience, and
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  Speaker 2: so today a lot of people who go into space
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  Speaker 2: talk about the overview effect, and he was one of
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  Speaker 2: the first to talk about it openly, even though all
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  Speaker 2: of the other astronauts had it. It expresses itself in
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  Speaker 2: a different way, so people generally will turn from whatever
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  Speaker 2: they were. It's a transformative experience and they become different.
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  Speaker 2: And so in his way of expressing that, after the
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  Speaker 2: mystical experience and thinking what in the world is that,
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  Speaker 2: because he felt one with the universe literally, he decided
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  Speaker 2: to create this institute that would study what he had
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: been studying for outer space, but for an inner space,
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: to explore inner space. So I remember in college reading
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  Speaker 2: about this new institute, and their motto was the exploring
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  Speaker 2: the frontiers of consciousness, and I thought that sounds like
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  Speaker 2: something I want to do, but there wasn't any place
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  Speaker 2: to do that other than this one institute. So I
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  Speaker 2: always had in the back of my mind that's that's
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  Speaker 2: where I want to end up.
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  Speaker 1: What is that termic? I know I've heard it before,
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  Speaker 1: but I never looked it up. No edic.
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  Speaker 2: So noedic is a feeling of intuition, except that it
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  Speaker 2: carries the sense of certainty that the intuition is correct.
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  Speaker 2: So intuition is knowing something without knowing how you know.
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  Speaker 2: It just sort of arrives, but it's knowing with certainty,
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  Speaker 2: and more often than not, the certainty is correct. So
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  Speaker 2: people talk about downloads and meditation and other places. That's
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  Speaker 2: what that is.
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  Speaker 1: This is a subject that, up until I would say
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  Speaker 1: the last couple decades, was pretty openly dismissed by rational people. Right,
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  Speaker 1: there's almost like a desire to dismiss it, like a
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  Speaker 1: desire to define the world in much clearer terms, where
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  Speaker 1: it's maybe ego driven. You're in control of your own destiny,
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  Speaker 1: and then there's certain factors that are out of your control,
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  Speaker 1: and just this is how it is, and this is life.
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  Speaker 1: Deal with it. And all this mystical woo woo magic
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  Speaker 1: bullshit that people have been talking about for some strange
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  Speaker 1: reason for thousands of years. We just dismiss and we
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  Speaker 1: dismiss it under the narrative of science. We're talking about science,
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: where science people we want data, but there is data.
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  Speaker 1: That's what's weird. And if you're willing to look a
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: little preposterous, which I certainly am, I think it's a
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  Speaker 1: good thing to do every now and then take a
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  Speaker 1: fucking chance and try to figure out if the world
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  Speaker 1: is exactly constructed the way you've been told, because it
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  Speaker 1: might not be. There might be some weirdness to it all.
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  Speaker 1: And it seems like we all agree. We all agree
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  Speaker 1: there is some weirdness. You could chalk it off to coincidence.
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  Speaker 1: When you think about a person and you haven't thought
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  Speaker 1: about them forever, and all of a sudden they call you.
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  Speaker 1: There's some weirdness in the world. There's some weirdness in
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: the world, like knowing not to do something and then
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  Speaker 1: something happens. There's some weirdness in knowing something's gonna happen
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: and you ignore that feeling and then something terrible happens.
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  Speaker 1: You're like, fuck, I knew I shouldn't have gone there.
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  Speaker 1: There's weirdness in the world, and it's not necessarily just patterned,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: recognized and understanding scenarios because you've experienced them before. There's
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: something to that too, that's part of it too, But
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: there's also something else. There's some weird connection that people have.
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  Speaker 1: There's a thing that when you know someone's mad at
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  Speaker 1: you and they don't say anything like, well, is this
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  Speaker 1: fucking weird energy I'm getting off this guy? There's some
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  Speaker 1: stuff we're experiencing in the world that you can't put
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  Speaker 1: on a scale. You can't put a tape measure to it,
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  Speaker 1: you can't measure its density, but it's there. There's something,
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  Speaker 1: and we have a very limited amount of senses in
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: terms of our ability to see, field, touch, smell. It's
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  Speaker 1: not enough. There's probably some other stuff out there we
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  Speaker 1: don't have the tools to measure, but it impacts us.
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  Speaker 2: But we do have the tools to measure. So that's
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  Speaker 2: what attracted me to the rest of my career because
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  Speaker 2: exactly for the same reason you just said that, people
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  Speaker 2: have experiences oftentimes they feel pretty strange and so they
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  Speaker 2: start looking for well, what is that? So if you
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  Speaker 2: go to a like a conventional science spokesperson, they will
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  Speaker 2: echo back exactly what you're saying. It's coincidence, it's frailty
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  Speaker 2: of memory, all of that stuff. But I learned early on,
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  Speaker 2: even in college, that there is a branch of science
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  Speaker 2: that has studied these things. I mean, it's been going
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  Speaker 2: on since the late eighteen hundreds that the sciences have
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  Speaker 2: been interested in these kinds of phenomena. And science is
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  Speaker 2: really really good at taking even strange subjective experiences and
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  Speaker 2: figuring out is that a coincidence or what is that?
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  Speaker 2: Is it real? That attracted me so and it partially
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: came out of reading a lot of science fiction. Your
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: science fiction is saturated with these kinds of stories where
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  Speaker 2: the element of the story is of revolving around some
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: kind of psychic or noetic thing. The force, Yeah, the
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: force in Dune, the series, Frank Herbert's Dune series, the
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  Speaker 2: whole thing about spice. Why did they have to take
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: spice because that's the only way you can navigate when
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: you're jumping through wormholes, like you needed to know what
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: you're about to expect on the other side. It just
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: saturates novels and science fiction. It's there and generally, if
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: you have a topic that people are paying attention to
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  Speaker 2: like that and are very popular, it's because something is resonating.
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  Speaker 2: If it was so strange that nobody even had a
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: way of thinking about it, it wouldn't be popular. But
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  Speaker 2: it is, and it's perennially popular. So I took the
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: science fiction interest, and as even a younger kid about
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: fairy tales, which is saturated with these things too, and
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: I thought, well that I wonder if that's real. But
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: then you kind of get shuttled into a scientific career.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: And one thing that happens for fledgling engineers and scientists
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: and for a lot of other academics is that you're
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: being taught a set of assumptions about the way that
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: the world works called materialism or physicalism. And the thing is,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: you're not taught that that is a set of assumption.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: You take it for granted after a while, because after
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: you go through college for twenty plus years and no
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: one ever mentions that we're working under a set of
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: assumptions na materialism, and no one ever talks about the
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: philosophy of science, which is all about studying the assumptions
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: and are they correct. Once you do. Start studying the
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: philosophy of science, you find out that there's lots of
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: different ways of understanding reality. And so there's the whole
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: materialistic side, which is really really good at explaining aspects
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: of the physical world. It gives us these kinds of technologies,
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: but it doesn't explain subjective experience at all. And so
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: that's like a existing number one mystery in science today
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: because you have to challenge the idea that materialism is
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: all there is, and so people have weird experiences. They're
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: talking about a more comprehensive way of understanding reality. That's
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: what's going on, and so that's why I end up
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: writing a book like this. So the magic here is
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: not stage magic, it's the real magic, which we don't
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: have a name for yet.
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  Speaker 1: When they first started studying this in the eighteen hundreds,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: what were they specifically trying to isolate or figure out?
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: Well, just like today, people would see apparitions, they would
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  Speaker 2: have the sense that there were telepathic connections between people,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: they'd have precognitions, and there was the beginning of figuring
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: out ways of using experimental science to be able to
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: study these things under controlled conditions. And the word control
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: is important because it means you exclude coincidence by the design,
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: and you exclude leakage of information, you exclude all kinds
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: of things. So the only thing left over is if
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: that telepathic thing was real, then we'd be able to
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: see it in the lab. And the short story is, yeah, there,
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: we're now one hundred and fifty years past that, and
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: we have very very strong evidence that telepathy does exist.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: So what was the first evidence that they they were
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: able to get out of these initial experiments.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: They used to call it thought transference, and so the
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: methods they were using them would not pass muster. Today.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: They would have like two kids who say we can
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: do telepathic transfer between us, and then many times they
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: would find that the kids were using some kind of signal,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: and so that wouldn't work today. Today people have to
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: be strictly isolated. Neither can know what the target is
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: that they're trying to transfer to the other person, and
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: we do lots and lots of replications with lots of people,
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: and so that then forms a body of evidence where
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: it becomes extremely difficult to think of what the flaw
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: might be. And in fact, if we have skeptics about it,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: who know the literature. Their usual response now is either
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: there's no plausible flaw that they can identify, because a
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: lot of time has been spent to figure out what
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: might be a flaw. And the second response, which is
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: more recent now, is we're not going to look at
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  Speaker 2: the evidence because we know it's impossible, which is no
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: longer a scientific argument, but that's the approach. We're not
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: going to look at the data.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: That's silly. Yeah, well, it's really silly when you consider
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: the intelligence agencies have spent an enormous amount of money
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: in a considerable amount of time studying remote viewing, Like
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: why why would they invest that much time in nonsense?
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Why would they invest that much time in something where
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: there's no evidence whatsoever and they have never achieved positive results.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: That doesn't seem to be correct. Now, if you just
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: if you listen to the stories of the guy like
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: how put Off and all these different people that have
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: been involved in these remote viewing experiments, they had actionable
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: data that they they derived specifically from remote viewing. I
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: don't understand it. I can't I've never done it. I've
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: never attempted it. I don't know if I can do it.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: I did it once, We had an experiment on a
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: television show that I did where we had this guy
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: who claimed to be a remote viewer remote view this area,
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: and it was he was off, but it was also
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: under duress with cameras, Like, is that the state of
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: mind that you want to be in when you're trying
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: to remote You know that's not ideal at all, And
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: that is a factor, A major factor in whether or
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: not you could understand intuition is where what is your
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: state of mind? Are you in a place of complete
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: anxiety and fear or are you totally relaxed and focused
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: on what you're doing? Is there any distractions? Is there
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: a jackhammer nearby? Is there a dog barking? Is there
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: something that could interrupt this state of mind that you're
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: trying to achieve? Because there's different states of mind. We
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: know this, we can measure this, we can measure the
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: brain waves, we can we understand that this state of mind,
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: it's not a static thing like a toaster. You know,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: it's not on or off. There's a bunch of different
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: shit going on in your brain, in your mind at
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: any given time. So the idea that remote viewing, which
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: is some very bizarre connection that some people have to
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: reality that's nowhere near local. They can describe things in detail,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: talk about submarines that are being constructed in the Soviet Union, like,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: there's weird shit to that. And if you just dismiss that,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: you're being a fool, there's something there. And the only
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: way anybody figures out for something there is if you
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: study it, if actually intelligent people are willing to look
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: a little foolish and spend some time studying it. This
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: episode is brought to you by Visible. How many of
• 19:30
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• 20:21
  Speaker 2: Right so that brings us to my next job. So
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: after I got my doctorate, I started working at Bell Laboratories,
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: so it was the biggest laboratory in the world at
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: the time is still a Bell system. And because I
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: was interested in these kinds of things, for some of
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: my time at Bell Labs, I started doing little psychic
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: experiments involving mind matter interaction and also involving precognition. So
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: there's an ongoing link here that goes back to the
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Institute Intoetic Sciences. In a strange way, edgar Mitchell was
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: gave the first money to SRI International, which is where
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: help put off when Russ targ was to do remote
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: viewing studies. He also brought Uri Geller to the United States,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: and he brought SRI in a bunch of other places,
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: including Bell Labs. So when I was working at the labs,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: I knew that there had been people who had seen
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: some of the stuff that Geller did, and I was
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: doing these little psychic things, so I asked for permission
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: to be able to present some of the work I
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: was doing at an annual conference of the Parapsychological Association,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: which is an affiliate of the largest scientific organization in
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: the United States, the American Association for the Advancement of Science.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: So many people don't know that the Parapsychological Association is
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: one of the two hundred sum affiliates of the Triple As.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: It's a legitimate scientific organization. So I did this precognition test.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: I asked for permission, and I got permission not only
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: to give my presentation at the conference, but to use
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: the Bell Labs in primature. So I was giving this
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: as some guy from Bell Labs talking to this audience.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Unbeknownst to me, there were a few people in the
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: audience who came up afterwards and one of them said,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: if there was an opening, would you be interested in
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: joining the Stargate program? Whoa, And so that was an
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: offer I couldn't refuse. That's one of these cases of
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: you have this door or you have that door. Well,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: that door looked really interesting because it was known at
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: the time that there were people at SRI I doing
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: this sort of thing, but the classified portions were a rumor,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: like nobody knew what was really going on. So I
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: took a leave of absence.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: That must have been exciting. Yeah, get that offer, yeah, Stargate.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, are you kidding?
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Holy show.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: So I took a leave of absence for one year
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: from Bellabs and so I went to SRI International. How
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: put Off was my boss, and then at May when
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Hal left in nineteen eighty five, had May took over.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: He may not be a name that is known as well,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: but he was the director for ten years. And so
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: I worked on that project. And it took a long
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: time to get the clearances because first of all, I
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: didn't know anything about classification or anything. But I figured, well,
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: maybe it's just secret. No, it's just top secret. No,
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: it's top secret SI. No, it's top secret SI Special
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Access program, which means there's literally a book that you
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: have to sign and you can see all the other
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: people who have signed that book. Special access means even
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: if you have a top secret clearance, you cannot know
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: about this place. You cannot know about the code word.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: You can't the code word was classified. So, I mean,
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: which seems kind of odd because if you have a
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: code word, it's not saying anything. But nevertheless, that's how
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: it worked.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: So we were the research side of people who talk
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: about Stargate mostly they're talking about the military side, the
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: operational side, well, we knew what they were doing, but
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: our mission was different. Our mission was figure out those
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: questions that you're asking, how does this stuff work? Like
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: is it real? Yes, some people are very talented. What
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: are the limits of it? Can you block it? Can
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: you shield it? Can you do camouflage? And one of
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: the main areas was what's the difference between someone like
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: Joe mcmonacle, who's a superstar in this area, Why is
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: he any different than anybody else? Because like when I
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: first met the Ingo Swan and Joe and a bunch
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: of other people, they were the kind they were so
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: different than my stereotype of Madame Zodiac that they like
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: I'd say, you got to be kidding. These people are
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: remote viewers. They're just like guys and gals. And so
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: every method was used to try to figure out is
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: it psychological difference, is it physiological? Is it medical?
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: What is it?
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: And the answer was we couldn't find anything. Now, may
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: be some background about the people themselves, but in terms
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: of finding out something that would it used to select
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: because the Army and others were interested in getting lots
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: of other people who would be talented.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Too, So there's no consistent factors.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: No, there wasn't. It wasn't anything.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Wow, So that seems crazy.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Except maybe talent. Two things talent and openness. So talent
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: is natural talent it did partially based on genetics. And
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: openness is a psychological trait where you're simply open to experience.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: So people who tend to be to have like a
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: certain way of thinking about things that are not open
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: to other stuff, they block it. They could block it
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: real good. People who are open to experience and willing
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: to try new things, they in general tend to do better.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: So that brings us to talent, which I'll get to
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: a little bit later, especially about the genetics of talent.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: So we didn't have the genetic tools at the time.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: Now we do have the genetic tools, and so we've
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: done a couple of studies looking for what we call
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: the psygiene. We think we're onto something. Okay, So I
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: work on Stargate for a year, go back to Bell Labs,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: and almost immediately get another invitation. It's one of these
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: doors open again. How would you like to go to
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: Princeton Because at Princeton at the time was the Princeton
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Engineering Anomalies Research Laboratory. It was the lab doing cybersearch.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: That was headed by the dean of the School of Engineering,
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: and so that lab went almost for thirty years doing
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: mind matter interaction, doing remote viewing, and a bunch of
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: other stuff at Princeton. So my position was in the
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: psych department because that's where I had my PhD. But
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: to lead a program among many departments, one of which
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: was the pair Lab. And the idea was, in order
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: to have any chance of beginning to understand this stuff,
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: you need to pull in every discipline because it's way
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: too big, it's too complicated for a single discipline. So
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: we had the philosophy department and the psychology department, and
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: civil Engineering and the pay Lab and a bunch of
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: other departments. My job is sort of corral it together
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: to create multidisciplinary research projects. And I was told in
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: day one that's impossible. This is a job you cannot
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: do well why, I mean, we had the money for it.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: And the answer is that in the academic world you
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: succeed within silos. You know an enormous amount about a
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: very particular kind of topic. Like even in the psych
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: department there you have cognitive psychologists, perceptual psychologists, social psychologists
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: on and on. They don't even talk to each other
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: because it's outside of your discipline, outside the little silo.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: My job was to sort of mash it together, and
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: it was ridiculously complicated.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: Was there resistance?
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, resistance is not quite strong enough. It's
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: like each one of the departments was getting money from
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: this big grant that we had, so they were willing
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: to play the game. But when it actually came down
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: to doing some kind of a cross filtering.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Well, no, why didn't they want to collaborate?
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Because everything of value in the academic world is in
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: your silo. So if you're trying to work across silos again,
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: even within the same department, social psychology and perceptual psychology
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: might not even talk to each other, and their offices
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: are right next to each other. But that's simply the way.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: That's the same.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, But it also it sort of makes sense when
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: you think about it, to become an expert in something
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: takes twenty years from the university and then the rest
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: of your academic career just to keep up with it.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: So it kind of makes sense that you don't want
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: to start turning your attention off to something else because
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: you're not in that department anymore. So it's a problem
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: and it's always been there. It's not getting any better either.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: Well, it seems like there should be a way to
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: fix that. The ultimate goal should be whatever we're all
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: working on collectively should benefit mankind. And if you're in
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: the psychology industry, which you are, if you're teaching psychology,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: if you're working on psychology, you should want to get
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: involved in this. The fact that they're all siloed off
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: like that seems insane.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So the approach that's sometimes taken in the academic
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: world is to create a center center for the study
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: of fill in the blank that brings in people from
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: different disciplines and then are kind of forced together.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: But these people from different disciplines probably already working on
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: important stuff to them, and this is taking away from
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: their time.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: It could be, except that, depending on the nature of
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: the work, it may be something that requires another discipline.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: So you might have somebody in computer science who's working
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: on that, and then you have somebody in psychology who's
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: interested in the human side, like how do you connect
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: the computer and the people. Well, there's a subdiscipline called
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: human factors. That's where I was working in Beilaps because
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: they had engineering in psychology, so you kind of mash
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: those two together and then you could actually learn the
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: some new stuff that's a value to both. And also
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: that's how you create new disciplines. That's how the discipline
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: of neuroscience began. So you go back now, it's more
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: like sixty seventy years ago, somebody noticed that you have
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: all these people in biology, and all these people looking
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: at cells and people looking at things having to do
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: with the nervous system. There were all different disciplines. So
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: a large foundation came along and said, I think we
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: need to create a discipline of the neurosciences, and they
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: threw enough money at it to bring people together and
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: that formed a new discipline. So I work in the
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: area of consciousness studies, which is only now starting to
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: become its own discipline, because before that it was maybe
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: a few philosophers interested in it, an anastesiologists, and that's it.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: But it's changing.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: So when you were at Princeton, what specifically did how
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: did you start it? Like, what specifically were you working on.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: Initially besides trying to get people to talk to each other,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: which was frustrating. Yea, So one of the things I
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: did was meta analysis. So this is a way of
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: taking the results of individual experiments that are similar to
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: each other, like telepathy experiments, and putting them all together
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: with a statistical method to see whether independent people are
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: able to replicate the same thing. It's called meta analysis
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: meta meaning it's like an analysis of analyzes, and so
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: it answers two questions. One is, if this is really
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: real in a scientific sense, then other independent people ought
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: to be able to do the same experiment and get
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: the same result. So that's one part. The other part
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: is if you do have a lot of people doing
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: the same experiment, then what is the overall result. It's
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: like one gigantic experiment. Now, So I did a number
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: of meta analyzes, ended up writing a book on it
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: that nobody wanted to buy. So just sat there. And
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: then I was doing experiments on precognition of my job,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: and because of my engineering background, I was using the
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: latest version of machine learning at the time, which is
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: neural networks, and applying it to the data from the
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: pair lab to see if you know. When you do
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: an experiment involving mind matter interaction, usually use a random
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: number generator and you ask them, buddy, this thing is.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: You tell them, this is going to push out a
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: whole bunch of bits, random bits, and I want you
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: to make more one bits than zero bits. That's your task.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: So they press a button and they get some kind
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: of result and now make more zero bits and I
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: don't do anything. So this is a three different kinds
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: of tasks in one session. And so what they were
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: finding was that in general, if you run a lot
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: of people and this kind of task, yes, their intention
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: makes the bits go in the direction that you want,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: so ya hi goes up and low goes.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Down, so on.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: So the question then is not everybody can do that.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: Some people get the opposite result. So some people get
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: really good, I'm making it go high, but they can't
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: make it go low. So the idea came about that
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: as something like a signature that was from each person.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: People had a way of interacting with the machine that
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: made it do certain things that was unique to them,
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: but overall it worked out. So I started using neural
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: networks to see if I could train a neural network
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: to tell who was doing the task based on how
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: the random bits were working. And it turns out you can.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: So when I left Princeton because it was getting way
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: too frustrating.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: I took that I was just trying to get people
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: to work together.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: Trying to do this multidisciplinary teams. Yeah, and as I
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: told you, the first day I was there for the job,
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: I was told, by the way, you have an impossible job.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: It's necessary, though, because this was part of the grant.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: What you're doing is part of the grant, so you
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: have to do it anyway. And I did for three years,
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: and then they decided I don't want to do that anymore.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: But so I went back to industry, but I specifically
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: told the people I was interviewing with, I want to
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: pursue this, like this is the beginning of a technology
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: that will have a machine identify who you are and
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: your intention, kind of like neuralink, except there's no connection,
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: nothing going in the brain. It's purely intention. So I
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: did end up working for a company outside of Washington, DC,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: where part of my work was doing exactly that. We're
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: using more advanced neural networks with random number generators and
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: got to the point where we're about to set a
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: patent for this device because it worked, and the head
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: of the organization at the time was a retired general
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: who had a buddy who was an admiral, and he said,
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: the Navy's interested in this kind of for obvious reasons.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: They want ways of communicating with submarines. So that point,
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: we're like right on the edge of doing that, and
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: we get bought by another company and the new company said,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: you're not going to work on that anymore. So the
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: wheels internally started. It was like golden handcuffs a lot
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: of money. I mean, it's a very good position, but
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: I didn't really want to do that anymore.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Did they have a re was it a profitable issue?
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: The vice president in charge of the lab did not
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: believe that it was possible.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Oh god.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: They also didn't look at the data, of course, so
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: he said, no, we're not going to do that.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: He doesn't want to be silly.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean, it's so frustrating. You have that
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: it worked, We have a thing here, it's working. No,
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: he just he didn't want to do it.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Oh that's so frustrating. Yeah.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: So a few years it goes by. I kept doing
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: all this stuff on the side now outside of work,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: because it was just too interesting to drop. There was
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: a recession. This was nineteen ninety two, there's a recession.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: Part of my department was laid off, including myself. So
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: unbeknownst to most people at the time that the Stargate program,
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: and by the way, it wasn't called Stargate then there's
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: a lot of code words involved, but it's just known
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: as stargates will use that. That program was giving classified
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: contracts to other people around the world, including at the
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: University of Edinburgh in Scotland. So we had a colleague
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: at the University of Edinburgh who was creating an automated
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: Gonsfeld testing system. This is a telepathy system where you
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: press a button and the people are involved and everything
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: is automated. It's kind of getting the human out of
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: the loop except for the two people in the experiment. Well,
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: the man who was developing that unfortunately died and so
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: this was an unfinished project. So I went to ed
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: May who was director of cart Stargate at the time,
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: and I said, well, can I go there and finish
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: the project? Yeah, sure, okay, So I went to the
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: University of Edinburgh for about a year and I worked
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: on this project to finish the automated telepathy system. And
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: they've run many many people through that system by now,
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: and so while I was there, I finished that pretty quickly.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: I started to develop the presentiment experiment. And you had
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: Julia Mussbridge on the show recently, so I think she
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: was talking about this experiment where you can see if
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: somebody's body is reacting to something in the future that
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: is unanticipated, that's random. Well, I was developing that at
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: the time. That would have been around ninety three or so.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: And so let me tell you a story about the
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: kind of effect that gave me the idea to do
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: this experiment. So the usual way that people talk about
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: it is that you drive to work the same way
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: every day thousands of times, and you have a traffic
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: light that you're coming up to and it's green, and
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: normally you'd start accelerating towards it because you want to
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: get through the light. If something tells you today there's
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: something wrong, I don't know what it is, but I'm
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: going to slow down, and you keep slowing down. The
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: cars behind you are beeping to say what's going on.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: You get almost up to the intersection and a truck
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: blasts through their red light and you would have been
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: hit broadside if you didn't slow down. So you have
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: this momentary shock of relief, realizing that you just saved
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: your life by paying attention to that little voice inside
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: your head. So I thought, okay, let's simulate that in
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: the laboratory. Well, we can't put people in danger, but
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: we can do emotional tests like that. So you wire
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: somebody up looking at skin conductance or pupil dilation or
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: brain waves, all kinds of things in the new nervous system,
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: and then you just record that continually, tell them press
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: a button and then they're going to see something on
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: a screen. So it could be a very calm picture
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: or it could be a very emotional picture. So emotion
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: can split in two ways. It could be a very
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: negative picture like picture of surgery or an explosion or something,
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: or it could be a positive like a smiling baby.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: So the two different valences they're called, and you don't
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: know which is going to come up, because a true
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: random number generator is a thing that decides after you
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: press the button, then it decides what is going to
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: show you. So nobody knows in advance, including the experimenter.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: So I set up an experiment to do that, and
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: by this time I already left Edinburgh. I had to
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: make a decision then again, do you want to go
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: back into industry, And I had an offer from Oakridge
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: National Labs, which would have put me back in the
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: classified world, or this other opportunity, which was to work
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: at the University of Nevada funded by Robert Bigelow, who's
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: probably best known for the AWSAP before. Yeah, so Bigelow
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: has very generously said, yeah, well I'll pay for your
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: way to go into the university there, and I was
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: able to run my own lab. So one of the
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: very first things I set up then was, first of all,
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: I want to continue working on this neural network or
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: machine learning method for making a technology of intention.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: That was one of the things.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: But the other one was this presentiment experiment. So I
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: ran that experiment and it was unbelievably good. Like it's
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: normally you have little statistical effects. This is like in
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: your face, holy smoke. This is a big thing, big,
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: big pre presentiment effects. Like if skin conductance one and
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: a half seconds before, well, you press a button, you
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: wait five seconds, then it selects a picture. So one
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: and a half seconds before the picture is selected, if
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: it's emotional, you start to become emotional. If it's calm,
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: you remain calm. So that difference beforehand we call the
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: presentiment effect. It's your body somehow or unconscious knowing what
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: you're about to see, just like approaching a light and
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: slowing down, something is telling you something. So we did
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: that experiment, and I told this to one of the
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: guys at the at the center I was working at,
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: and he told me a story which is far more
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: interesting than not going through a red light. So the
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: story is this. So he used to go hunting with
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: his buddies, and they had a whole bunch of guns.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: His favorite gun was a six shot revolver, a double
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: action revolver. And so the way that he would take
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: all the bullets out, he'd clean the whole thing out,
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: and he put in one, two, three, four five bullets
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: and leave the hammer over the empty chamber so it
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: wouldn't get jostled accidentally. So he's cleaning the gun, he's
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: putting in bullet one, two, three, four. He picks up
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: the fifth bullet and he has that feeling something about
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: this bullet isn't right, so he didn't put it in,
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: left it aside, put the hammer over cylinder six and
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: then they went hunting, so it is now two weeks
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: in advance. They come back from hunting. His pistol wasn't used,
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: and a bunch of other guns weren't used. But they
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: do what you should not do after you go hunting,
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: which is starting to drink. So they're all getting a
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: little bit too tipsy and drinking too much and a
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: fight breaks out between two people there. One of them
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: picks up my friend's gun points at point blank at
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: somebody else, like right in their face, and my friend
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: is now looking with horror because the trigger's getting pulled,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: the hammer's going back, the cylinder is turning, and he's
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: trying to intervene. Now he steps right in front of
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: the gun and it goes click. The hammer hit. It
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: hit that fifth chamber because it rotated from six to five.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Whoa.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: So he realized with horror at that moment that if
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: he had not taken out that bullet, he would be
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: shot in the head. And so afterwards he said, everyone
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: has a bullet with their name on it, and mine
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: is in a safety deposit box and I know exactly
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: where it is and it's not coming out.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: So that's a real life version of this which is
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: two weeks in advance. In the laboratory, we can only
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: look seconds in advance.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: Also, you should have the intuition and not go hunting
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: and drinking with psychos that are willing to shoot somebody
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: in the face over an argument.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: Nevertheless, yeah, so what happens.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's crazy though.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: So see, this is where we want to go. In
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: these kinds of experiments. You need like real life stuff
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: that you can actually test in a controlled way in
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: the laboratory. But there's all kinds of ethical reasons obviously
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: why you can't do that. But I'm pretty sure that
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: if we're able to do to get something at that
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: level in the laboratory, we would have much much stronger
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: results than we currently.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: Do now when it comes to things like remote viewing
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: and being able to be open and being able to
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: actually pull it off and actually remote view things that
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: you can prove what is the state of mind these
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: people are trying to achieve, and what is the protocol
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: for achieving a state of mind?
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: It depends on whether you're naturally talented or not. So
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: Joe mcmonical and a few others that I know, if
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: if you were to ask them at breakfast, can you
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: remove you what I have and I have a hidden
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: fold over here. They will continue eating and tell you
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: the answer immediately. So for them it doesn't take much
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: at all. And in fact, what Joe would say, and
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: I have some pictures from what Joe had done, Joe
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: would say that if he knows in the afternoon he's
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: going to do a remote viewing, he'll get all the
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: information in the morning, like instantly, I'll just it'll just
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: be there, and then he has to wait until you know,
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: the whole thing plays out. But it's like bang, he
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: got it. So it's a matter internally of simply knowing
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: I need to get this information and it happens immediately.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: For people who don't have that natural talent, you go
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: through training where and by the way, almost everybody can
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: do this, but it does require some training. Now, so
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: for an average person, the training typically is to not
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: name an impression, which is really tough. So you have
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: a target, may which may be somewhere in the world,
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: maybe a person somewhere, maybe in an envelope something like that.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: You're taught you will have something come to mind. You
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: know that that's a target. You have no idea what
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: it is, but you know that there is a target
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: you're going to have to describe. So name the first
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: thing that comes to mind, but not without naming it.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: So you start little scribbles, and then you have more
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: complicated scribbles, and they start adding feelings and senses they
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: are associated with these scribbles. Eventually you get to the
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: point where it's kind of all gels together and then
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: you get a coherent image. The problem is that if
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: you tell somebody I'm going to show you a picture
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: in twenty minutes that you don't know what it is,
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: and you say, okay, well just imagine what you're going
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: to get, and you get a flash of yellow, You're
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: instantly going to start thinking of bananas. And once that happens,
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: you can't not think of bananas anymore. So that's what
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: I mean by not naming. So that's one of the
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: very first things that you learned. Is anything that comes
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: to mind that you have a name too is probably
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: not it. It takes practice, but you can get there.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: Wow, what was the most impressive thing that you ever
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: saw anybody achieved with remote viewing?
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: After I got the clearances, Hell gave me the briefing
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: that everyone gets, like in skiffs and Congress and presidents whatever.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: I got the same briefing. So one picture after the other.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: Experiments by Joe and by a bunch of other people
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: who are not as well known, they basically give almost
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: of a ritical drawing of the target. And these are
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: targets that are elsewhere in the world. These are targets
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: that are in envelopes, these are targets that are in skiffs,
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: all different kinds of targets where nothing about the target
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: is known. Like I will tell you a five digit
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: number which stands for the target, and so all you
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: have is a five digit number. Now give me a
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: description of what I'm going to show you in two hours,
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: and they do it.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: So you're putting the number to the target. You're just saying,
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: like Moscow is number sixty five.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: To four a random number?
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, And just by you attributing that number to whatever
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: this target is, there's a connection made. Yep, what's happening?
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: How is that? Yeah? So what's that? Yeah?
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: We don't know why that is. There are theories about it,
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: and the theory requires probably stepping away from materialism as
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: the only model of reality. So there are other models
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: which allow for consciousness. Whatever that is because we don't
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: know that either. But consciousness seems to have a non
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: local quality, so it's the same kind of non locality
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: that you talk about in quantum mechanics. It's a quantum
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: mechanics as entanglement, which are non local connections between things.
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: It is also through time, so connections through space and time,
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: so we know that that's a real thing. That's what
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: the physical world allows. It is as though consciousness, whatever
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: that is, also has that property. It is non local,
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: so if you push it hard enough, you end up
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: with something like that movie, everything everywhere, all at the
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: same time. That's basically what we're talking about. There is
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: an aspect of reality which we don't ordinarily see, but
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: nevertheless connects everything throughout space and time. And so if
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: that were not true, then things like precognition wouldn't work
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: so well, telepathy wouldn't work, viewing wouldn't work, none of
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: that would work, but nevertheless it does work. So that
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: is like a more comprehensive way of understanding what reality
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: is like.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: Do you think this is an emerging quality in human
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: beings or do you think this is an atrophied quality
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: that we used to all have before the development of
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: written language, books, media, all these different things that sort
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: of take away this quiet communication that people probably had
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: with each other. We believe wolves have that with each other.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: Wolves coordinate somehow, they coordinate attacks on animals, and it
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: could be through learned experience, but how do they remember
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: it and know what to do and how to Each
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: one have specific roles, like one wolf will chase the
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: elk into like a certain corridor, and the other wolves
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: will wait and be on a higher ground and come
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: down and attack. And they know that they do weird
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: stuff that somehow or another requires some kind of communication.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, and they're way more intelligent than we have usually thought.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: Well, think about how intelligent some dogs are, you know,
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: like a Belgian Malmoir or something like that, and one
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: of those dogs they use for military training. Those dogs
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: are incredibly intelligent, and they need exercise, they need activities,
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: they need things to to emulate them because their brain
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: is like firing all day long. Wolf is that times
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: one hundred?
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah? And so most animals, plants, and sects maybe have
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: consciousness in some form. And if that consciousness is similar
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: to ours, it is non local.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: Do you think it's an emerging thing or do you
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: think it's a thing that we've always had.
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: I think that we are shaped as humans by evolution
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: to not pay attention to the there and then, because
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: if we were paying attention to there and then a lot,
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: then you may not notice that there's a tiger in
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: front of you who's about to eat you. And so
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: if you like look over the long span of development
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: of whatever it is, we are people who are walking
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: around thinking about Pluto a million years ago would have
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: been pruned out of existence. So only certain kinds of
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: people historically were able to do that. We call them shaman,
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: and the shaman as part of a tribe were extremely
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: important because they knew the food would be ten miles
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: away that way next week. But the shaman typically could
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: not take care of themselves very well. Their their minds
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: were off in Pluto, and so the tribe took care
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: of them. And so today we don't have that very much.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: We're distracted by everything, and we don't have the same
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: kinds of needs that they would have had ten twenty
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: thousand years ago, except in some indigenous societies. So one
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: time I gave a talk for the Australian government. There's
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: a whole bunch of ministers there and people in the military,
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: and I was talking about this sort of stuff, and
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: unbeknownst to me, one of the ministers was representative of
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: the indigenous people there. So I finished his long talk
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: on telepathy and she came up afterwards and said, well,
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: we've known this stuff for thousands of years. They would
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: use it, Like in the outback there was no phones,
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: but somehow they were in communications part of the culture.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: They didn't have the distractions, and they had a need.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: So you can imagine a more or less isolated culture
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: for a long period of time that didn't have tigers
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: immediately always trying to capture them. They had the need
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: to be able to communicate that way. We don't have
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: the need anymore. So at atrophies.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, so it atrophies. And so with things like remote viewing,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: do you think this is almost like a relearning of
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: a skill that people had at one point in time.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's still some people who have some of
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: the genetics, because all of this is basically evolving back
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: into talent.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: Some people have that talent, and you think that's a
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: genetic thing.
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: I think a good chunk of it is genetic.
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: Yes, so it's from people in their ancient past that
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: had that quality, had that ability, and they've passed on
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: that trait. Yeah, this episode is sponsored by Betterhelp. Summer
• 52:52
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• 53:50
  Speaker 2: So like in Joel mcmonical's case, he was one of
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: those guys that did search and rescue behind enemy lines
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: and he always came back his team always found their
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: guy and he always came back alive. And so, well,
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: where did that come from? Well, he used his intuition
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: in the field to decide let's not go down that road,
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: let's go over here, and he was safe. So afterwards,
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: when asked, when there was recruiting for people who had
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: some abilities like this, they would ask people like that,
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: do you find like and you're in combat? You never
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: get hit? Okay, let's talk. The other thing, of course,
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: is did you ever have any experience beforehand that suggests
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: that maybe you had these experiences? Well, Joe did and
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: his sister did too, so there suggests again some kind
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: of a familial genetic underpinning for why people had these experiences.
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: So I will continue the story because I'm going to
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: intersect with his genetic part in a minute. So I'm
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: at U and LV doing all kinds of interesting stuff.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: Somehow the New York Times learns about what I'm doing
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: and they think it's an interesting character story. For a
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: parapsychologist be working in Las Vegas, because Las Vegas is
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: sometimes called the largest parapsychology lab in the world. You
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: have a whole bunch of people trying to mentally influence
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: more or less random systems like they are all the time.
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: So okay, it's at Vegas.
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well it kind of is right. You toss the
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: dice you want a certain result, Well, we do that
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: in the laboratory, except we don't have a lot of
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: money associated with it. I was able to actually get
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: data from one of the casinos, the smaller casinos, and
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: because the general manager was interested in what I was doing,
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: so I said, well, cold, I get all the data
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: as much as you have on jackpots for slot machines
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: and also the table games. And a miracle occurred and
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: she said yeah, So she gave us the data. I
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: was able to analyze it and, among other things, found
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: that jackpots happened more often, and payouts happened were larger,
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: and table games did better between one or plus or
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: minus one day from the full moon, which by the way,
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: matches magical lore. I mean, all kinds of things are
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: related to when the full moon happens, religious effects and
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: all kinds of things. So I thought, well, that's interesting.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: Or jackpots happen plus or minus the day of the
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: full moon, And so I said to the general manager,
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: maybe this is something you don't want to tell people
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: because they'll all start coming in the full moon. She said, yeah,
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: bring them in, because all you could do with this
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: information was lose a little bit slower because everything is
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: you know, you vegas. Yeah, it's not rig but it's
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: set up in such a way that the odds are
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: against you, so you would lose slower. But nevertheless you'd
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: see that in the data. So there's something interesting. Okay.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: So I get to the to the end of my
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: time at UNLV and a new door opens. And partially
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: because I because of the New York Times piece that
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: book that I had written at Princeton that nobody wanted
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: to buy, I suddenly had publishers calling me and saying,
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: do you ever think about writing a book?
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: I have one. So I published that book that caught
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: the attention of people at an organization called Interval Research,
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: which was funded by Paul Allen, the co founder of Microsoft.
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: So Paul Allen was interested in doing what he called
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: developing the wired world.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: This was.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: This would have been started in nineteen ninety as a
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: ten year project to figure out, given that the Internet
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: was going to be a gigantic thing, what do we
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: do with it? So this was people that were poached
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: from Apple and from Xerox Park in the MIT Lab
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: and all lots of places. They brought one hundred people
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: together and so I was invited to do a SI
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: research program there with a budget that was ten times
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: larger than I had at UNLV, salary that was three
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: times larger. So I thought, yeah, that's the door that
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: I want. So at interval, everything was proprietary because it
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: was all leading into patents that would eventually create things,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: and so some of the things we take for granted
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: now we're developed there. I was there not so much
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: to develop a psychic technology, but because a small percentage
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: of the projects were considered blue Sky is kind of
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: to make sure that everybody in the lab realized that
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: we're trying to push the envelope hard in developing new things,
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: and so it's always useful to have a couple of
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: speculative projects around. So I worked on that and then
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: the ten years was over in two thousand, So this
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: is all in Silicon Valley. So a couple of us
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: then left to create a nonprofit which we call the
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: Boundary Institute, which would continue the research that we were doing.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: And then that lasted for about a year because there
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: was dot Com crash and we couldn't raise money to
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: keep ourselves afloat. I was invited then to join the
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: Institute of Neddic Sciences, where I've been now for the
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: last twenty five years. So the circle here is here.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: I am in college and looking at this this place,
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: studying the frontiers of consciousness, and that's where I end up.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: And I've been there ever since, and no new doors
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: have opened that have attracted me. So I'm there and
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: I've been having great fun at the institute.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: I interrupted you when we were talking about numbers being
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: associated with targets and you were expanding on actionable data,
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: Like what was the most impressive thing to you that
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: you saw that people achieved with remote view?
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: Do you mean from an operational sense or I mean just.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: Just for people listening, Like what would be the most
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: spectacular example of something that couldn't be achieved any other way.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: Well, one of the things was actually admitted by President
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: Carter way back when when they found a bomber, a
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: nuclear bomber that landed somewhere in Africa which could not
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: be seen from above because of the canopy of all
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: the nobody knew where it actually landed.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: It crashed right, it crashed.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: There was a bomb on board that they did not
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: want anybody else to get, and so they asked one
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: of the remote viewers. In fact, this is one of that.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: They asked several of them, but one of them specialized
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: in location, which is very difficult for remote viewing. Like
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: if you look at a map and you say, well,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: you know, put a dot on the map for where
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: it is. That turns out they would not be very
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: easy even for remote viewers. But this one lady was
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: very very good at that. She was a dowser. In fact,
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: she was a map dowser. So you get a big
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: piece of blank.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: Well you're saying dowser like those people that walk around
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: with the stick to find water.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, except map dowsing is you have a blank sheet
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: of paper which is linked by association to an actual
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: map somewhere. You don't you know, you don't want to
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: give anything away, so you don't use a real map,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: use a piece of paper which is has little x's
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: on it that map onto an actual map. Okay, so
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: we asked this lady, your name was fran put a
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: mark on the map of where this bomber landed. And
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: of course she doesn't know it's Africa, she doesn't know anything.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: She does her thing. She puts a mark on the map, says,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: I think it's there, And so they go there and
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: they find it within a couple of kilometers of that spot.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: Who and so they they originally go to that spot,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: they see natives nearby. So they asked the natives, you know,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: was there anything crashing out of the sky recently said yeah,
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: something happened over there, that's where it was.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: Now, what did Carter say when he when he spoke
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: about this publicly?
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: Carter was asked a very similar question that did you
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: ever encounter anything really weird? So that's the example that
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: he used.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: Didn't Carter have the UFO experience?
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: He did, He had that as well.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and Carter was The folklore is that Carter was
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: briefed about something having to do with alien life and
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: he was so upset that he started weeping.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, I've heard those stories.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: Yes, what do you think about those stories?
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: It could well be true. Yeah, I mean, so there's
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: actually a rumor of what he was told. No, I
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: don't know what he was told. If I had a
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: guess given that he was a very religious person, it
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: probably was pushing against his religious beliefs. Yeah, that's what
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: I would guess.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, that was the giant rumor that was
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: going around recently that there was going to be some
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: big disclosure by the White House and that a bunch
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: of pastors had been briefed about this to try to
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: talk to their flock and you know, get ahead of it.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you heard that, right.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what did you think of that?
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: It could well be true. So I know Jacques Vallet really.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: Well, he's a fascinating guy.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I know Gary and yeah, I've work in
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: circles where we've basically all have known each other for
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: a long time. And the UFO business UAP is very
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: similar in some respects to the psychic side, both in
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: that there's an enormous amount of misinformation that has been
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: pushed by government by other places to deflect attention. And
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: so there's lots of examples of that, which I mean,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: because of what we know now about the UFO thing,
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: it's relatively easy to see how that could have happened
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: for the PSYE business as well. So just one example,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: I go to the naval War College, and I've given
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: a number of lectures and one of them is on telepathy.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: How do we know that telepathy actually exists. There's a
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: bunch of different ways of knowing that. And so afterwards,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: two sub commanders come up. In fact, that's the story.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: That's the opening story gambit in my book Science and Magic.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: So the two subcommanders come up and they say, well,
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: we have a story to tell you. These are two
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: independent subs, are the commanders of two subs. So I'm
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: telling them everything we know about telepathy. And they say, well,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: one time and we're submerged, we're under maneuvers. A crewman
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: wakes up from a dream and tell goes to the
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: commander and says, we need the surface because something bad
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: has happened at home. Well, we can't, we're under maneuvers.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: Next time we can surface, Well, then you can call home.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: So the next time they surface, they call home, and
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: sure enough, when the sailor woke up from his dream,
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: there was indeed something bad happening at home. So both
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: of the commanders said the same story. So I said, well,
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: does this happen like every Tuesday? No, there were no
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: false positives. It happened once and both times it was correct.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: That's very important to know, not simply that it happens,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: but it is happening when the submarines or to classified depth,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: which means at least three hundred meters probably more below
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: the surface of the ocean, where it's extremely difficult to
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: get any kind of message there. So it's not electromagnetic.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: We don't know what that would be.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: What were the events at home that were bad?
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: They didn't tell me the events at home, but it was.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: Just personal events, like some in someone's family.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: Something in their family, something was going wrong, would turn
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: out to be correct. So one thing is yes, it
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: tells us something that's important to know from a scientific perspective.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: Because they are not reachable by ordinary means. That's the
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: whole point about having a submarine. Very difficult to know
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: where they are and get messages to them. The other
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: thing is that people who are selected to be sub
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: mariners are psychologically extremely stable. They're not prone to flights
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: of fantasy, they don't have claustrophobia, they don't have any
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: kind of the neurosis that you would imagine that somebody
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: would need to go into a submarine for months submerged
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: who knows where, So it means this happens to ordinary people,
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: in this case in an altered state of awareness, namely
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: in a dream state. But nevertheless, they got it and
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: there were no false positives. So I was a little
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: whenever I give a talk to a new type of group,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: especially in the military, always thinking that these guys are
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: they think I'm nuts because I'm telling them stuff that
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: shouldn't exist by any conventional perspective. It's exactly the opposite.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: Mostly I've talked to officers like up to generals and
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: admirals and few levels below that they are all completely
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: on board. And I began to understand why that. Not
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: only are they in life and death situations and that's
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: where these things tend to bubble up, but also they
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: had to trust their intuition and making lots of decisions
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: that affect other people, and they would not have risen
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: through the ranks unless they were really really good at it.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: So that's why I was not getting the kind of
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: pushback that I expected to get.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: Interesting. The Bell Labs connection is very interesting too. You know,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: Bell Labs is a It's also the source of myth
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: and folklore about the Roswell crash, that they received things
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: from the Roswell craft and back engineered it. Do you
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: know that whole crazy I.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: Know about those stories. I don't know any I don't
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: have any direct knowledge of anything, never heard anything.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: When you were there, there was a company called the
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: American Computer Company way back in the day, and they
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: just would sell you know, Windows computers. You could you
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: pick out the hard drive and all this jazz online
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: They've built it for you. And they had a whole
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: page of their website that was dedicated to Bell Laboratories
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: and Bell Laboratories being close to a military base, not
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: because the military base is really to protect New York City,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: it was really to protect Bell Labs because they were
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: working all this top secret stuff there, and that they
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: had back engineered some stuff from the Roswell crash. This
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: is all like this, Maybe it's so fun. Why is
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: that stuff so fun? Yeah?
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: Maybe? I mean, after all, they invented the fiber optics,
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: lasers and everything in modern.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: Fiber optics specifically was one of the things that they
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: discussed as being something that they discovered.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: Well there is. I mean, if you go to the
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: to the ordinary history, you can figure out why that
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: happened that it didn't involve reverse engineering anything. That there's
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: a long history about why somebody would have gotten to
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: the point to realize that you can do certain things
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: with glass that would be interesting. Whether the idea came
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: from somewhere else, that's that, I don't know.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: It's just interesting. It's just it's it's fascinating when you
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: find out that there are these very limited access programs
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: that are beyond top secret that even the President can't
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: find out about them. Yeah.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And so one of the disadvantage of a special
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: access program is that you could be working next to
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: somebody and are not allowed to talk about what they're doing,
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: and that that was happening a lot. So a lot,
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: a lot of the Stargate program is now public. There's
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: like four volumes that go through great gory detail on
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: this called the Stargate Archives. Not all of it has
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: been released. So a lot of the military stuff will
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: never be released because it involves people and methods and
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: so on. Some of the research side is not released either,
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: and so I know about that because I was in there.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: I also, just by virtue of hanging around other people,
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: you learn things that they talk about. So we know
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: about some of those things too, And I know when
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: you're talking to how put off and occasionally you would
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: ask him something and he say, well, I can't talk
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: about that. Well, I can't talk about this, right.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: That's a problem. Does that frustrate you that you can't
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: openly discuss some of these things.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: Yes, it was especially frustrating when I was working there,
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: because we go into the building and we're doing all
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: kinds of interesting psychic things, and you go out of
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: the building and it does not only doesn't exist that
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: if it ever comes up in conversation, you don't say
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: I can't talk about it, because that would mean they know,
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: you have to go along with the game and just
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: agree with everybody else that it's all nonsense. It's nonsense
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: out there and in here we're working on it.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: So that kind of what a weird psychological dilemma.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: Well, even worse, the whole point about classification is to
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: keep secrets. We were figuring out ways that you can't
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: keep secrets, right, I mean the whole thing about remote
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: viewing and dilepathy and all that stuff. There are no secrets.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: With the right talented people, nothing can be shielded, nothing outside.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: Everything's all about secrets. So one of the reasons I
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: think that these topics are still have a stigma attached
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: to them, and why there's disinformation is because imagine how
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: this society would work if there were no secrets.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: Don't you think that technology is eventually taking us in
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: that direction.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, but it's not going to be neuralink. It's not
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: going to be brain computer stuff. It's going to be
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: the real thing.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: So you think technology will aid us in achieving the
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: real thing?
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: Yes? How so okay, so one day we're talking to
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: Gary Nolan. Gary says, have you ever looked at the
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: genetics of highly talented people? There's a lot of folklore
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: out there that there are people who are psychic who
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: come from psychic families, and then there are people who
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: don't have anything psychic and don't have anybody talking about
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: psychic stuff. That's just genetics. So this was a couple
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: of years ago. We decided to do an experiment that
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: we call psygenes. We're looking for the psychic gene, more
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: likely a polygenetic trait, but nevertheless something about genetics. So
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: we do an experiment where we recruit three thousand people
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: using the Internet who say that they're psychic from psychic families,
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: and then we do all kinds of vetting to make
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: sure that they are who they say they are and
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: they have some talent, and we get their DNA. We
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: only had enough money to find out of the three
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: thousand people thirteen, so we also did face to face
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: interviews to make sure they weren't nuts. So we get
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: their DNA. Then we find match controls, and we do
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: standard methods of comparing the two sets of genomes, and
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: so we found something that we didn't expect, which was
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: that the psychics were all so called wild type. They
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: didn't have any unusual things happening in their DNA. The
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: controls had a significant effect in an entron sequence. So
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: you have DNA. It's billions of base pairs. Only about
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: fifty thousand of them produced proteins. It's the called the xome.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: It's a portion that creates our body. It's that stuff.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: All of the rest of it used to be called
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: junk DNA because they didn't know what it did. It's
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: the intron sequence. It's the thing between the genes that
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: now we know is the epigenetic portion. It's the portion
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: of the DNA that turns genes on and off. These
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: controls had a mutation in their intron sequence, so they
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: were turning something off. We still don't know exactly what
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: it is, but something about their makeup was turning off
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: psychic sensitivity. And so one of the people on our
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: project was a specialist in the genetics of societies. Different
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: societies have different genetic makeup, and he found that, to
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: our surprise, there too that countries that were exposed to Christianity,
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: the longer they were exposed, the more this intron sequence
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: was there, the mutation. We started thinking, well, how does
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: that make any sense. Then suddenly we understood the Inquisition
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: had systematically looked for people over hundreds of years who
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: had these abilities and then they killed them. And so
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: you think about this is a non evolutionary method, but
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: nevertheless a pruning of a portion of humanity. So they
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: were getting rid of people who had this and what
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: were left over were people who had this no psychic
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: stuff at all. So yeah, so it's like eugenics in
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: an opposite direction, where they weren't trying to pull people
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: for talent, but get rid of the talent. And you
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: can see it in the genome.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: And this is directly connected to the Inquisition, because so
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: the Inquisition, this is what were they like, who were
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: they targeting specifically.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: They were targeting witches, So the witches were once an
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: awful lot of innocent people were caught up in that
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: as well, but people who are known as healers, who
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: people who had precognition, And of course the church at
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: the time was concerned that somebody is going to come
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: along that's going to attract our followers away from us.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: So magic was okay within the church. Within the bounds
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: of the church, if a priest is anointed in a
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: certain way, they can do magic. The whole ceremony of
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: the Eucharist is a magical practice.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: It's okay.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: Outside of the church, it was not okay. And so
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: it was a very heavy handed way of ensuring that
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: the power would remain in the church.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: So by enforcing their Christian ideology, they eliminated anybody that
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: had any alternative powers or visions or anything weird, any
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: other kind of practices.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so the case of the Catholic Saints is
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: very interesting. Like Joseph of Coupertino was said to have
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: levitated and also to do by location, very psychic things.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: He was very He was lucky in a sense that
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: he was already a priest. Lots of people, thousands of
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: people saw him levitate and he made it. Basically, a
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: deal was made with the Inquisition that you now need
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: to go to this place out in the middle of
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: nowhere and don't show this anymore to anybody, because we
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: don't know.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: When you say he could levitate like how high, there.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: Are stories of him levitating thirty feet.
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: Sometimes drifting into the rafters of churches in front of
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: astonished crowds, and even Pope Urban the Eighth. Yeah, you
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: could read more about it in his Extraordinary Life through
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: Franciscan media. Yeah.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: St.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: Teresa Lie the patron saint go back please the uh
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: often called the patron Saint of air travelers.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, why not, right, we're all levitating.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: That is crazy. The most famous levitator in Catholic history.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: So there's other levitators.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, there's a book called how come nobody
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: could do that?
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: Now?
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: There are stories that people can do it now, but
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: so far in the laboratory we have them been able
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: to see this. There's a book called.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: Stop Stop, Please go back. This one Saint Teresa of Avila,
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: Spanish mystic, who famously recorded that her levitations occurred unexpectedly
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: during states of deep spiritual rapture. She described the sensation
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: as a violent force lifting her up from beneath her feet,
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: and was so embarrassed by it that she instructed fellow
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: nuns to physically hold her down.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: WHOA, yeah, dozens dozens instance of.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: A CC but it's like, do it now? Why do
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: you think people don't do it now? And film it
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: on their iPhone.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: Well, so the TM organization had a city program, the
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: City Yogic Powers, and they had this whole thing for
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: a long time about yogic flyers. So one time I
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: went to the university where they were going to show
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: the four best yogic flyers that we're all excited about
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: that a few other people, and so there are four
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: young men who are going full low disposition and then.
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: Hop I've seen that.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So we were like, you know, right next to
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: them seeing hopping. And the hopping's pretty good because you're
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: in a full lotus position and you hop around two
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: and a half feet.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: It's biometrics though, Yeah, yeah, it was hopping.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: So I asked them, well, why why aren't anybody flowing?
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 2: Why is the flying not happening?
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: There?
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 2: They go, right, But yeah, so that's it takes You
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: have to be pretty strong.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: To do that. Yeah, but that's all that is. Yeah,
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: I know guys who can do that.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: So the Maharishi was asked why why don't why isn't
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: anybody flying? And his response was is, there's too many
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: people who think it's impossible, So it becomes like a
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: sociological thing. So is that true? I don't know.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: Do you think it's people are more closed minded to
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: the ideas than anything outside the norm anything like that.
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: Levitation is nonsense, So it's like it's permeated our zeitgeist.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 2: Yes, it also I believe that it can act as
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 2: a block for other people. So one is, so you
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: haven't asked yet why is a scientist who worked at
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: Princeton and Bell abs and why am I writing about magic?
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: Cause of a couple of experiences that told me that
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: our understanding of psychic effects now is like in a box,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: we generally do experiments, we get relatively small effects. They're
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: not gigantic effects. They're not levitation. Well, maybe it's the
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: same thing. Somebody can make a random number generator do something.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: It's you need statistics to see it. They're really small.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: But we don't know the limits. So I've had a
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: few experiences that told me I really don't know what
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: the limits are. And so that that brings up this.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: So bending a bowl of a spoon without force, which
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: I did, and so I brought you a spoon. This
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 2: is the same spoon. It's from nineteen sixty one. It's
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: this particular. So I set up this. I went to
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: a spoke called spoon bending party.
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: Because you bent that spoon with your brain or your mind,
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: well with your consciousness or whatever.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: It is something I comptillly did something. But I'll show
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: you in a minute how we did this. So the
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: reason I did this because I was at Interval and
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: at the time Russ Targ was working for me, and
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: I'd made too and Rust came back from one of
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: these parties and he said he had bent a rebar,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: a half inch rebar, which I mean, some musclemen can
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: do that, but you have to be pretty strong to
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 2: bend a rebar and have it stay there. So I
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: was thinking that is ridiculous. I didn't say that, but
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: I was thinking that's impossible. And the same thing about this.
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: If you bend the neck of a spoon, which is
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: what typically people do, a person can do that just
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 2: and it's gone so fast that you can't see it,
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 2: and then you hide it and you reveal it and
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: it looks like you've bent it. So I went to
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: one of these parties and I heard that there was
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: a woman there who's able to bend the bowl of
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: the spoon just by touching it, not by itself, but
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: sort of touching it and moving it over. And I said,
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: I want to see that, because it's ridiculous. So I'm
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 2: standing in front of this woman and she's holding it
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: like this as a thumb, theare and finger here, and
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: so she's I'm waiting for her to do it, and
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: I'm mimicking her because I want to see how she's
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: doing it, you know, is it a trick. So we're
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: doing that and nothing is happening, and then somebody says,
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: look what you did, and I'm looking, Oh, somebody did something. No, dean,
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: look what you did. I had bent at ninety degrees
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: and I immediately look at my fingers. Did I do
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 2: this by force? No, no indication, no indentation or anything.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: And so the person said, bend it all the way,
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: so it was halfway, and I literally went and went
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: all the way. So now I have this spoon and
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: I'm sort of mind boggled by it because I know
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: it wasn't force. I'm not strong enough to be able
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: to do that. Very few people would be able to
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: do it. So I have another spoon just like it,
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: and I'm on the plane flying home and I'm trying
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: to do it with a spoon, and I suddenly get
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: a huge shock of fear because I'm in a metal
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: tin kan thirty thousand feet up and I don't know
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: how I did it, and I don't want the wings
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: to suddenly go shit, because I'm right. I still don't
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: know exactly how, but I know the metallurgy now. So
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: it turns out that if you're holding it like that
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: and you can do between fifty and seventy pounds of force,
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: suddenly like an impulse, you will cause the lattice that
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: forms the grain boundary to momentarily soften, and then for
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 2: about twenty seconds it will be really really soft. And
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: that's and at that point you can literally just take
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: a thumb and finger like this, which is what I did.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: And spush it over instantly tightens up again.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: But there's no explanation for what caused the initial force.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: No, because I was holding it like this, and I
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: can't tell you that now. No, I don't know how
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 2: I did it.
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: I do know how. Is that the actual spoon they
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: did it with?
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the spoon.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: Did I feel this is a regular spoon? Yeah? Yeah,
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: I want to show you.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: I want to show you this other part here, This
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: is the motivation. So I was told, well, more importantly
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: than that is to take the full spoon that you have,
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: because this is what I was worrying.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: This one was already weakened, right, No, No, but I
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: mean now it is no that.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 2: That is the way it is. It's a little spongy.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: But yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like that, I just
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: did that.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're bring Yeah, and you have to apply a
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: lot of force to do it, a lot.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I got to really strain. Yeah, and I have
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: bat thumbs. But once it's like that, I could kind
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: of do that.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, now of course you smoothed it out, So
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: now try to do it without it being in that
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: position with just one finger. No, just like this, hold, hold,
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: it like that, hold thumb under finger on the top
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: and bend it down not the neck. Yeah, the shell
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: shape resists bending.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: It's very hard to bend.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and more importantly, don't hurt your fingers on this.
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I can't do it.
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: Well I might be able to do it if it
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: was more stable, but it's very hard to do. It's
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: not something that's with leverage.
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: Certainly you can do it, but there there was there
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: was lamp.
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: Maybe I could do it. Oh yeah, but I mean
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: I would want to use both hands. I'd want to
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: get in there. Yeah.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's no, that's not what I had to
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 2: do it.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: With a finger. That's very hard to do and you
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: don't know how you did it.
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 2: Well, So I was in a very weird state of
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: motivation as we were told that if you could do
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: that without force, that you would get.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: This button certified warm former. Yeah.
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: So so it's called warm warm formering because you're forming
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 2: this as though it became warm, because it feels like
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: it feels like putty when it.
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: Actually that's what i'd heard that people do with like
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: the of them.
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, then I wasn't interested in the next.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: EXEA A guy do that. He told me it was
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: a trick. Yeah, he goes, I'm not going to tell
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: you how I do it. You're not using magic.
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: You could just you could just do it.
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: I said. He was like doing something of rubbing it
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: with his fingers and it would like it was a
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: specific type of spoon or something like that.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: Even with this spoon, I mean, you're certainly strong enough
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: to be able to push it over at the neck.
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: The shell shape is very difficult.
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't. I can't do it. So I was
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: told if if I did it, but look, I had
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: to use both hands.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you apply leverage and you're going to feel
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: it tomorrow in your fingers too.
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: Right, But yeah, this is that's very hard to do.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: So if you could do it, you get a button.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: So the next day I was giving a talk to
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: this conference, as was hell at a conference, and I
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 2: imagine myself with my suit on with the button, and
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: it was like some kind of weird ego thing where
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 2: I felt I needed to demonstrate to the people in
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: the audience that I can do this stuff. And it
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 2: was so strong because I'm not very egotistical and I'm
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: not self aggrandizing either, but there was something about getting
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: the stupid button that put me in a position where
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: I felt, if I don't do this, the universe will end.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: I mean that kind of level of obsessiveness, right, I
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: needed the button for no reason. Well, well, because I
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: needed the button, I know, but that's.
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: Kind of crazy. I don't know how to seem like
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: something you would be interested in knowing you for the
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: brief amount of time that doing you.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: Nevertheless, that is the case. That is the strange state
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: I was in, and it's it's relevant to the idea
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 2: of how traditional magic is supposed to work. There's a
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: number of factors involved. There's belief, and motivation is very important,
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: imagination and a bunch of other things. So it's very
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: difficult in an experiment to create that level of motivation.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 2: This is not something I want, this is something I need.
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: I need this to happen. So well, so I got
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 2: the button, and the moment I did that and he
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: gave me the button, it all vanished. The whole thing
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: about the need was suddenly and then everything in the
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: universe was okay again. So that's when you look into
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: how magic works. You build up this sense and there's
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: two ways of doing it. One is very long term
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: meditation where you can gain certain skills, and the other
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: one I call screaming at fire, so that the image
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 2: that that evokes, you're screaming at fire. It's that kind
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: of motivation which allows things to unfold that otherwise wouldn't happen.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: So this state. Have you ever tried to achieve this
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: state again under any other circumstances?
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, in the airplane, And now I don't do
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 2: that in the airplane because I don't know how I
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 2: did it in the first place. Then yeah, I've tried
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: several times since with a quarter inch aluminum bar. This
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 2: is the same kind of bar used in aircraft. It's
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: very strong, very stiff, and us start with it flat
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 2: and it doesn't rock at all, And so I was
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 2: able to make it go so that it rocks a
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 2: little bit. It moved it probably a fraction of a millimeter,
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: using the same kind of thing, but without that crazy
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: motivation because I didn't have a button.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: Did you film yourself ever doing this? No? No, has
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: anybody ever filmedself doing something like this.
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: There are some films of people doing this. Generally, what
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 2: you see is it breaking like a spoon. A spoon
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: will break here and the GOP. But again, there was
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: a lot of research on this in the nineteen seventies
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: by metallurgists and physicists. Some became convinced that it's real
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: and some came convinced that it wasn't real.
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: So there's some kind of energy, some unknown energy, that
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: you're transmitting to that spoon.
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 2: I think what's happening is very similar to what's going
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: on with these micro p cased events, micropsychokinetic events, that
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: you're changing probabilistic structure at a very deep level at
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 2: the atom, and that would actually do it here. If
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: you're able to target a like a strip across here,
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: you can momentarily cause the grains to shift.
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: And the fact that you didn't know you did it.
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: I didn't know how we did it. I just know
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 2: what I wanted to happen.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: But did you recognize it was happening while it was happening? No? No,
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 1: I was too free to that, That's what I'm saying.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: That's not like so the state of mind was so peculiar. Yeah,
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: that you were doing it without even focusing on the
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: fact that you were doing it.
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure if I was being analytical at the time,
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 2: it would not have happened.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: That's what's so weird about the whole idea of intuition
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: is that if you try it, if you like you
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: really think about it too much, then you get fucked
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: by your own perceptions in some way, like you you
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: skew the thing, you start defining it, and you can't
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: see it anymore.
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: It's a very general sense. It's right versus left brain.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: Our left brains are analytical. It's what allows us to
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: do this sort of communication. It is maintaining stability about
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: the way that we think the world works. The right
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 2: brain isn't interested in that stuff at all. It's about
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 2: form and function. That's remote viewing and most psychic stuff
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 2: takes place, and it's not simple as left and right brain.
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: But it's generally a general idea. So the second level
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 2: of our psygenes test, so they're both published now. So
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: the second one we need thousands of cases and controls
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: in order to do this right, Like if you're studying schizophrenia,
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: what's the genetic basis? Use tens of thousands of cases
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: and they know the genes now. As a result, we
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: don't have money to do that, so we've got data
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 2: from twenty three and meters and from ancestry and those
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 2: kinds of places that give you your exome. So it's
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: not the full genome, it's a portion of it. And
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: we had people fill out a questionnaire of what kind
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: of experiences you had, and then we're able to do
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: an analysis. Is there a correlation between the two and
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 2: the answer is yes. We found two hundred and twelve snips.
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 2: These are single neucleotide polymorphisms, so it's a piece of
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: the genome. Two hundred and twelve correlated with the psychic experiences,
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 2: one of which correlated with a probability of a million
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 2: to one, so that one's probably a real thing. So
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 2: what is that snip associated with? You go into the
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: atlas and you can say, well, what portion of the
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: body is that involved in? And it's involved with a
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: whole bunch of different things happening in the brain. So
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: anybody who's listening was ten million dollars to spare and
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: wants us to figure out what is the rest of
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 2: the story. We can do that because we have the technology.
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: Now, elon, you got some cash, throw it at this thing.
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: So do you when you think of consciousness, do you
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: think that we as individual biological entities, are interacting with
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 1: consciousness and with different levels of achieving certain aspects of consciousness,
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: some of it being genetic, some of it being life experience, education, training,
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: but that we're just these individual biological entities that are
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: tapping into whatever consciousness is.
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: Yes and no. But you see the the subtitle how
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: the mind weaves the fabric of reality. So I'm viewing
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 2: this as consciousness and the physical world are like a tapestry.
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 2: They're both necessary for understanding of reality, and they're weaved together.
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 2: They're both part of it. You can't have just the
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: physical world, maybe you can't just have a consciousness world either.
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: They're working together. So we are that our physical body,
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: our consciousness are woven together into the form that we
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: currently take. That is essentially a philosophy called dual aspect monism.
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: It says the two there's one world of which we
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 2: don't know what that is, but two things split out
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: of it, mind and matter. But they've come out of
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 2: something that is uniform. It's one thing. So Carl Jung
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 2: called it the unus mundus, the one world out of
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 2: which things split, Well, why is it split? His idea
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 2: was that it splits because of meaning. So meaning is
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 2: what caused this mind matter split, and because they come
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 2: out of the same place, they're tightly correlated, like two
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 2: sides of the same coin.
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: But meaning being very subjective, right, meaning.
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question because Young did not clearly
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 2: define what he meant by meaning. We sort of know
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 2: what that means, what meaning means, but it's in that
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 2: theory at least, or the philosophy, it's not clearly defined.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: So when you get down to this one thing that
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: these two things branch off, what is the one thing?
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: It's the one thing that everything comes from, and I
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: also mind the matter are two aspects that split, But
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: there's an infinite number of other aspects that can split
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 2: out of this one thing. So maybe it splits into
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 2: other worlds, it splits in other universes, it splits. We
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: don't know how it splits into aliens.
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: We don't know. That's a lot of we don't know.
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when it comes down to it comes down anywhere
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 2: in science, we don't know the leading edge. We do
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: not know, and it's largely because science doesn't answer why.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 2: We don't know why why doesn't electron have a certain
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 2: charge on it, we don't know. That's the way it is.
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 2: Science observes stuff and then tries to make theories to
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 2: explain it. And sometimes we're really good we can make
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 2: stuff out of it. But when it comes down to
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 2: brass tacks, most of the answers are we really don't know.
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: And it gets down to the base of the observable universe.
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: You get to like quantum mechanics and quantum theory and
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: particles being nected, spooky action at a distance you get
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: you get to the weird stuff about quantum, the quantum world,
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: and the particles being in superposition, moving and still at
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: the same time being connected over vast distances. Like what
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: that's magic? Like whatever the hell that is? That doesn't
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: seem to follow any of the rules of reality that we,
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: like average people exist in.
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but our average experience is provincial, it's human centric,
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 2: it's human timescales. Yes, And so imagine a few thousand
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 2: years ago, you look up at the dark sky and
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 2: see a bunch of stars and a couple of them
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 2: look kind of fuzzy. Well, you didn't know there were galaxies.
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 2: Well you take the James Web telescope now and the
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 2: estimate is at least three thousand galaxies and the observable universe.
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 2: So imagine how your cosmology changes between those two. In
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 2: one case, you're the center of the universe and there's
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 2: some smudgy stars, a few of them, five of them.
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 2: About now we know we are in the middle of nowhere,
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: in some gigantic universe with basically no understanding of the
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 2: rest of it. Cosmology is changing day by day. So
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 2: I gave a talk on this recently about how every
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 2: time a new instrument extends our senses, whole new realms
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 2: of reality open up that weren't even imagined before. So
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 2: the reason why I'm continuing to be so interested in
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 2: what is the nature of consciousness, what is the frontier,
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: is because without consciousness, we wouldn't know anything. Quite literally,
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 2: we wouldn't be aware of anything. So in some respects,
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 2: we are creating all of this, and so something seems
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 2: weird because we don't have the senses yet to be
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 2: able to actually experience it directly.
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: God such a fascinating subject, and the concept of consciousness
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: interacting with things.
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 2: Then, yes, interacting, but more so that it is everything
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 2: is built of it, it's part of it.
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 1: So if your much is experiencing it.
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 2: It is it in a sense, it is it. Yeah,
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 2: if you go all the way to full blown idealism,
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 2: which is the philosophy that everything is consciousness, everything the
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 2: physical world emerges out of consciousness, that's idealism. It turns
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 2: out that almost all of the founders of quantum mechanics
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 2: were idealists, which is pretty odd when you think about it. Yeah,
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 2: the most successful physical theory developed so far were people
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: who are idealists, who felt that everything ultimately was consciousness.
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 2: Not only that, most of them were also mystics. They
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 2: read very extensively in Eastern philosophy. They knew about mysticism,
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 2: they were deeply into it, and that still is true
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 2: for leading physicists today.
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: Do you think there's ancient truths in all all the
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: mystic traditions and all these different things that have existed
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: in religious texts.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 2: And there is truth there that has been distorted by
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 2: history and language. Yes, And it doesn't help that. And
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 2: there's not going to pick on the Catholic Church, but
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 2: religion in general has said, of course there's magic, like
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 2: everything is magic, supernatural fill in the blank, but don't
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 2: pay too much attention to it, which is which is
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 2: kind of strange, especially in the spiritual traditions. So I
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: had an opportunity to talk to a famous guru called
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 2: Sad Guru, and I was saying okay, So I asked,
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: sad Guru, I'm a scientist and I'm studying psychic phenomena.
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 2: But within the yoga tradition and virtually every other spiritual tradition,
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 2: you're told not to do that. Don't pay attention to
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 2: these psychic things or deflection. So I said, well, am
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 2: I wasting my time as a scientist? I mean, what
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 2: do I do then? And also why did the spiritual
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 2: traditions say that? And his answer was, imagine you're writing
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 2: in a car and you've never ridden in a car before,
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 2: and you like the feeling of the air as it's
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 2: going against your arm. Well, it might rip your arm
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 2: off if you go near a tree. So the underlying
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 2: story is you're dealing with something which is so powerful
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 2: you don't know what you're doing, and it's too powerful,
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 2: so don't do it, to which I was thinking, well,
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 2: you're saying I shouldn't be doing this, but that only
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 2: makes me want to do it more because we need
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 2: to figure out what this stuff is right, right.
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: The idea that you should just ignore it is ridiculous, but.
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 2: That's what the spiritual traditions do. They say ignore it
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: is that so they.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: Can maintain control, so they can be the purveyors of knowledge,
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: and no one goes outside of that realm and questions
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 1: the ideology. Some of it is that.
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, certainly within Catholicism Christianity in general, yes, don't do that.
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 2: It's written into the like don't don't do this magic
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: stuff because it's demonic. I mean, that's kind of beaten
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 2: into your head for a long time.
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: Where did that come from? Why? Demonic because of potential for.
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 2: It going wrong, because it's not within the bounds of
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 2: the church, that's it.
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 2: Everything else is demonic and it will get you. And
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 2: by the way, there's still a lot of people in
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 2: our own government and in the military who believe that,
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 2: and that is one of the reasons why UFOs has
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 2: been deflected.
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: Oh JD. Evans said he thinks they're demons.
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah, I mean, so there's no way to
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 2: ask him about that. Again, the same is true for
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 2: for psychic stuff and UFOs. Right, this is demonic. People
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 2: like we shouldn't be doing this. So within spiritual traditions,
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 2: the other reason given is that the power is seductive
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 2: and people are too weak, and so if you gain
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 2: this power by one means or the other, you're going
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 2: to use it badly. And that probably is true. That's why,
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 2: at least within the Yogic tradition, if you're going through
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: through the path where you're eventually going to gain the cities,
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: you spend probably the first three to five years not
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 2: doing that. You learn how to get your ego and check,
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 2: and so that turns out to be an extremely important
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 2: aspect of the yoga training. And the yoga, by the way,
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 2: has very little or nothing to do with the whole
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 2: stretching and the maneuvers all of that. All of the
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 2: things that we think of as yoga in the West
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 2: are designed to get you strong enough so you can
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 2: sit in a lotus position for eight hours, because that's
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 2: where the action starts in meditation. It's not the physical side.
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: It is a reality of the human condition that if
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: you give people that kind of power and that kind
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: of influence over others, a large percentage will abuse it
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 1: yeah or at least use it for their own personal gain.
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 1: Control people and to set themselves up as being godlike.
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 2: So here's what I told sad Guru. So one of
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 2: the projects, because of our interest in this pig genes thing,
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 2: it's going to be a very complicated series of genes
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 2: and probably entron sequence and so on. But nevertheless, we
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 2: have the tools. We can do it if we had
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 2: enough money. Setting aside issue about ethics about whether or
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 2: not it's a good thing to do. Seven years ago,
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 2: a couple of colleagues and I formed a company called
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 2: Cognigenics to see if we could use genetic engineering methods
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 2: to do something like that. Could we significantly enhance perception
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 2: and cognition and memory and all of that stuff so
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 2: that you don't need to be a monk going into
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 2: a cave for thirty years, but you can take a
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 2: genetic edit and kind of get there quickly. So again,
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 2: setting aside for a moment the ethics and the power
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 2: seduction and all that, is it possible? And we now
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 2: think it's possible because we've developed an internasal delivery method
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 2: for RNA interference. You shove it up the nose, you
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 2: snort it up the nose, It gets into the brain
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 2: and it downregulates certain receptors.
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: Is it a one time treatment, it's.
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: A multi time treatment because it's RNA, So our RNA
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 2: will last for a while and then months later you'd
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 2: have to re up it. You can do it as
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 2: at one.
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: Time, so you could literally blast something up your nose
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 1: and it'll affect your ability to do.
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 2: This stuff in principle for psychic things. But we see
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 2: that that's far in the future. What we're doing now
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 2: as a company is addressing dementia. So we're looking for
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 2: ways of how do you fix memory loss, especially short
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 2: term memory loss. It is related to certain receptors. Turns
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 2: out to be the same receptors as in psilocybin five
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 2: HD two A. We can downregulate them.
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 1: You saw that study, were that article recently about a
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: woman who is I believe she had dementia, but she
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: couldn't speak anymore. She took five grams of psilocybin mushrooms
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 1: and all of a sudden she could talk.
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So this is doing that without the hallucinations and
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 2: much much longer. Psilocybin will get in and out of
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 2: your body pretty quickly. The RNA interference will take, will
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: will come up and then stay for about a we
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 2: think a couple of months and then slowly begin to decline,
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 2: and so you need to take this treatment, this internasal treatment,
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 2: probably every two or three months. And we don't know
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 2: about the dosing yet. We've done studies with mice and
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 2: rats and now with monkeys, so we know it works
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 2: in a primate brain. The next couple of steps.
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 1: When they do the studies with monkeys, what happens.
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 2: Well, there are two things that you look at. Well,
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 2: first of all, you want to make sure that actually
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 2: gets into the brain, So you do a radioactive tag
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 2: on the compound itself and then use a PET scan
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 2: to positron emission tomography, and you can then see does
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 2: it actually get out of the nose and go into
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 2: the brain. The answer is yes, we can track way
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 2: in the brain it's going. We mainly want to get
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 2: to get down to the limbic system because that's that's
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: where the hippocampus is and where memory is encoded. And
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 2: we know from our studies with mice and rats you
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 2: get one hundred percent improvement in memory in mice and
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 2: rats that are either aged or normal. Well, normal mouse
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 2: will get one hundred percent improvement in memory exactly at
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: the same time, they'll get a almost one hundred percent
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 2: reduction and anxiety. So if you think about a treatment
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: for dementia, dementia patients get very anxious, so you want
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: to calm them down and improve their memory. This does
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: both in one shot.
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 1: Wow, yep. And what does it do to regular people
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 1: have no ailments?
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 2: We don't know yet.
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: No one's tried.
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 2: Well, we don't have permission from the FDA to do
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 2: clinical trials yet, wink wink. If you ask the people,
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 2: if you have some do it. No, we haven't tried
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 2: it yet.
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 1: Not a single person has said, shoot it up my nose.
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 2: That would admit it.
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 1: No, oh, that would admit it. Yeah, yeah, that's my point. Yeah.
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 2: So it actually has pretty much the same effect as
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 2: a psilocybin, but it is only doing this one receptor
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 2: because when you take psilocybin, there's all kinds of things
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 2: going on, which is one of the reasons you get hallucinogenics.
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 2: So we wanted to do this for people who probably
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 2: wouldn't take a hallucinogen. It would probably come on faster
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 2: and it would last a lot longer. And for some cases,
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 2: like if somebody was terminal and they're losing their memory.
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 2: You can make this a permanent at it as well.
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: I wonder what would happen if you combined the two
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 1: which two, the RNA and psilocybin.
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 2: Well, we once we get this approved, we'll have you
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 2: do it and see what happens.
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 1: Well, let's find out.
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well.
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll come back and quit the podcast immediately, like
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 1: I've got the things to do.
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this would only last for a while. I mean,
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 2: we're specifically making it temporary because if somebody had a
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 2: bad trip on it, essentially it'll it'll eventually go away,
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 2: and so it's not a big deal.
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 1: But if you continue to do it like brushing your teeth.
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well so one one of our concerns is that,
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 2: because this is going to improve memory, if a normal
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 2: person who doesn't have dementia, would it be something that
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 2: that kids are going to try to just snort all
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 2: the time. So it's like riddle in that would not
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 2: be good.
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 1: So this would awesome.
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 2: Let's put it this way. It probably will not ever
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 2: be OTC. It's not gonna you're not gonna be able
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 2: to buy this at the drug store.
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 1: You'll have to be prescribed.
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 2: You have to be prescribed.
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 1: If you find a dirty doctor in Tijuana, you.
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 2: Also you will need you need a special kind of
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 2: delivery system. So if we think of a nose spray,
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 2: it's atomizing the stuff. It gets down in the lower nose.
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 2: In order to get into the brain, you need to
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 2: shoot a stream all the way up to the back.
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 2: It's like the cleft right up here, and just beyond
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 2: that is a bone that separates it from the brain.
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 2: Our compound gets through that bone. Whoa so, and it
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 2: has all to do with how big is the compound.
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 2: So similar to like if you snort cocaine, it'll get
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 2: in there. It gets in your brain because it's a
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 2: certain size.
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: But you can imagine if this just becomes a performance
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 1: enhancing substance that normal people take, you know.
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 2: That could very likely happen.
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean we're being very careful at this point.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 2: We have people on board who are ethicists to say,
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 2: because we're talking about enhancing human performance and human cognition
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 2: and perception, can we enhance it all the way out
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 2: into extra sensory perception ESP meaning psychic stuff? We don't know.
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 2: But as I said, once we find what the polygenetic
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 2: trait is the story of.
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 1: The lady who did the mushrooms. Yeah. So, the case study,
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: published in Frontiers and Neuroscience. Researchers focused on eighty year
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: old Japanese American woman with Alzheimer's. Her condition had declined
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 1: over the last decade and was reduced to urinary and continents,
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 1: speaking in single syllables, and dependence on caregivers for mobility
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 1: and support. She was then given a five gram dose
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 1: of magic mushrooms. During the initial phase, she was agitated,
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 1: sweated profusely, and entered a prolonged sleep state that suggested unconsciousness.
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 1: But around hour nineteen, she began speaking in full sentences
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 1: recalling life events she had been unable to articulate for years.
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: In the days and weeks had followed, more incredible changes emerged.
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 1: She regained urinary continents even in the evenings, and began
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 1: dressing herself. She was able to make and maintain eye contact,
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 1: remember social interactions, emotionally, respond to others, and hold lucid conversations. Right,
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 1: that's one dose.
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so what happens when you take this, You take psilocybin.
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 2: The first effect is that it is a five HD
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 2: two way agonist. It means it's souping up that particular reception,
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 2: but the brain notices that and then it downregulates.
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 1: You see what it says here, as subsequent three gram
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 1: dose of psilocybin was given to the patient and was
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 1: followed by increased verbal expression, humor, and greater walking agility. Yep,
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 1: miraculously miraculous as the mushrooms may seem, the study authors
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 1: note that the patient's improvements were temporary and psilocybin did
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 1: not reverse the disease as her neurodegeneration room remained. They
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 1: did not specifically they did not specify exactly how long
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 1: the improvements lasted. However, the researchers the research does demonstrate
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 1: that some function believed to be irrevocably lost to late
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: stage dementia may not be gone but merely inaccessible, and
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 1: that a mushroom trip has the potential to recover it,
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 1: albeit briefly. But it sounds like this would be even
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 1: better at that.
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 2: Well, this has the hallucinatory part in the beginning. The
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 2: reason why we think this works and the reason why
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 2: we're doing a down regulation of five HD two A
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 2: is because it takes psilocybin, it soups it up it's
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 2: an agonist that makes them more expressed. That's when all
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 2: the hallucinations and stuff happens. Then the brain compensates and
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 2: that starts pushing it back down, so it starts suppressing
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 2: five HD two way. We're doing that directly. So we
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 2: would guess then that if the reason why this happened
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 2: is because of the reduction of hyperactivity, which is what's
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 2: involved with neurodegeneration, that it would happen immediately, so you
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 2: don't need that initial push that you're starting right from
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 2: the get go with the reduction in this five HD
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 2: two way.
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 1: God, that would be a phenomenal game changer for people
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 1: that are suffering from this.
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, and also, the same platform that we use to
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 2: deliver this particular compound can be used with lots of
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 2: other compounds. So the more that psychiatry learns about neurodegeneration
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 2: and about memory loss and all that, we can just
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 2: change the compound and change the receptors. So yeah, we
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 2: can do it now.
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah.
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 2: So this this now links back into the Institute of
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 2: Neetic Sciences psy Genes project, which launched this thing. So
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 2: we're launching it in a very pragmatic way which could
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 2: help a lot of people. Keeping in mind that we
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 2: can go into a place where we're beginning to enhance people,
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 2: that's going to take a while to get there. And
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 2: again we think carefully about is this a good thing
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 2: or not?
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 1: I think it's of course, Why would it be a
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 1: bad thing.
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 2: I think it's a good thing.
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 1: What would be the bad part of it? When you,
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 1: you know, try to look at it in the worst
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 1: case scenario.
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 2: What they have in mind is every time a new
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 2: technology came along, people think this is the best thing ever.
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 2: Like I met the guy who developed trans fats, who
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 2: thought he was going to help a lot of people,
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 2: because then they wouldn't you know, if that wouldn't be
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 2: so bad. It turned out to be really bad and
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 2: so unintended consequences. When we're developing new.
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 1: Things, are there side effects that have been observed? Not yet.
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 2: It's partially because you do pre clinical work. There's only
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 2: so many things you can infer about what a mouse
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 2: or a rat is doing. Now that we're doing monkeys,
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 2: we do know that there were two monkeys in our
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 2: tests that were very aggressive. You get clear near them,
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 2: they bare their teeth. They don't want you to deal
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 2: with them. They took the compound and then they were
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 2: chill for two days. Afterwards having a single dose, those
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 2: two monkeys were no longer aggressive. So that's the angiolytic
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 2: effect picks society. Yeah, yeah, it's a nasal spray.
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 1: You imagine that. Just give it to everybody and everyone
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 1: just gets along.
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean you probably need permission, right.
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 1: If you just like told people, yeah, this is available,
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 1: and we don't no longer have to be in conflict
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 1: with each other, that would be nice, and we might
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 1: be able to connect with each other on some new realm.
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 2: That would be very nice.
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah, And so it sounds like the pluses way
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 1: way outweigh what potential negatives could be.
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 2: We would need to figure out first what the unintended
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 2: consequences are.
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 1: I like, how you think like a real scientist. Yes,
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 1: the brain, I'm thinking like a person's like, let's go
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 1: get a shot.
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 2: The brain always compensates, of course, for any kind of
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 2: drug that compensates bio lunch. No, So something would happen
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 2: and may be good, it maybe bad, we don't know yet.
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 1: Right, particularly for people that don't have a problem.
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 2: Right right, right, We're targeting people who do have a problem. Right,
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 2: and so far there's no treatment for it. I mean,
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 2: there's there's a couple of things that are mostly stimulus
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 2: stimulators and they don't work that well. My dad died
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 2: of dementia. I saw that happen. So I'm thinking if
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 2: I can prevent that in anybody else, just to just
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 2: to get short term memory back. Because he my dad
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 2: had five degrees, including a law degree, that is, living
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 2: as a graphic artist, so he was very intellectual, but
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 2: at a very pragmatic kind of job. By the time
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 2: he had advanced dementia, he can no longer watch TV,
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 2: And I said, well, well, well why not. He couldn't
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 2: track what was happening in a show, he couldn't listen
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 2: to audiobooks.
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's not good, terrible thing for someone who
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 1: just relies on their mind.
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I rely on my mind. Yeah, I don't
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 2: if I would take this stuff in a second that
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 2: you would if there's something like that started to happen.
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm thinking ahead. Yeah, so if we have time,
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 2: I would I'd like to explain one other experience that
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 2: I had which led me into thinking more about magic.
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 1: Can I ask you one more question about those?
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 2: Sure?
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 1: If you developed some sort of a compound that gave
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 1: real psychic ability, like something that was just undeniable. You
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 1: could literally communicate with people. And you found out that
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 1: this is something that you could give people as a
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 1: supplement or some sort of a medication. What would you
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 1: do with that information? Would you pause? Yes?
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I would pause for the same reason that
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 2: sad Guru said, this is not a good idea, because,
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 2: like I told him, we were doing this research on telepathy,
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 2: we might be able to make people super telepathic. He
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 2: said that would be a bad idea. Why because we orderly,
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 2: we normally think of being telepathic as receiving other people's thoughts,
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 2: but it's actually a two way street. You can then
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 2: inject thoughts right and control people. And he said that
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 2: that would be that would be such a seductive power
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 2: for most people that unless they were had significant training beforehand.
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 1: You don't want to do that significant training like you
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 1: were talking about the monks.
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 2: You go out of the way, go through meditation. And
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 2: one of the things, one of the reasons why I'm
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 2: interested in in the noetic sciences in general, is that
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 2: when somebody has an experience, whether it's psilocybin or some
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 2: other method. Oftentimes there's a personality transformation. The personality transformation
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 2: is like the positive side of PTSD, like their mind
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 2: is blown. They become pro social, which is the fancy
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 2: term meaning they suddenly become compassionate. They become more interested
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 2: in service, they want to help others. They could have
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 2: been a complete jerk beforehand. Something changes, and it changes
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 2: in a flash, and it sticks. Well, we probably ought
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 2: to understand why that happens. What is it about simply
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 2: getting in a larger picture of who and what we
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 2: are and what the nature of the universe is. That
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 2: becomes really really important to understand. So we know what happens,
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 2: we don't know why it happens.
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 1: Well, that's one of the most fascinating aspects of the
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 1: psychedelic experience is the ego death. Right.
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but.
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 1: You would have to have the two of them together,
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 1: if you had ego death induced by psychedelics along with
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 1: some sort of supplemental medication that allows you to achieve
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 1: like legitimate psychic ability.
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I see, you really want to do this.
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by it. Yeah, I would be weird. I
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 1: would be weirded out by it, for sure. I mean
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 1: I don't know how I would function if I was
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 1: the only one who had it. I don't think that
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 1: would be a fun place to be.
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 2: You would have to be prepared.
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it would be a real struggle.
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, think about in the old days when
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 2: there were mystery schools like an ancient Greece and elsewhere.
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 2: So everybody would get the drug, they'd have this opening.
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 2: Some people would be opened, and more or less stay open.
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 2: But there was that drug experience that did an ego
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 2: change and they so you may be right that you
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 2: need to have some kind of a noetic whatever in
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 2: order to push the ego down far enough to realize
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 2: is that we are all interconnected. It's all one thing.
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 1: Right, and so well, I think that idea has to
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 1: get out there more, and I think it is more
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 1: now than ever before. So it's more of a common
• 1:59:13
  Speaker 1: discussion that we're all connected. I feel like over the
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 1: last few decades that's much more acceptable to discuss this
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 1: concept of us being all connected without being dismissed as
• 1:59:26
  Speaker 1: being a kook.
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So this which is part of the whole thing
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 1: of like if you don't believe it, if you're completely
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 1: skeptical you're blocking it, right, And then we have to
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 1: kind of understand that there's real evidence that we are
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 1: all connected and this biological being that we live in
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 1: that is you know, millions and millions of years of
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 1: evolution have led us to this position, and over the
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 1: last you know, twenty thousand years, it's filled with barbaric
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 1: acts and tribalism, like, all this stuff is encoded in us,
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 1: and we have to figure out how to squash that
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 1: and how to move past it, move into whatever the
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 1: next stage of the human experience is.
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we had better do that, and it better.
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 1: It better involve ego death. It can't just be the
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 1: psychic ability because then you're just going to have manipulative
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 1: psychopaths that have the ability that other people don't. And
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 1: of course all these crazy people that want to control
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 1: the world and they're going to be the ones that
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 1: first have access to it.
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's not exactly ego death. It's
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 2: not right. You still need some ego because we're embodied
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 2: systems we need to operate.
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 1: It's a bad terms.
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 2: It's more like a recognition of like you teach a
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 2: kid you're really really angry. That doesn't mean you need
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 2: to act on it. You recognize it, and like mindful meditation,
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 2: you're learning that.
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 1: You, Yeah, you can control of the egos.
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 2: Better recognition of it and control, yeah.
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 1: And understanding of it, having like legitimate methods that you
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 1: use to keep it in check. Right. Yeah. But it's
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 1: also like in sort of encoding in people the discipline
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 1: to be able to do that, because that's also involved
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 1: in controlling the ego. Right, But having that and where
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 1: it seems like we're if all these things come to
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 1: pass and this technology emerges and this research continues to
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 1: bear fruit, you're looking at the potential for a completely
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: different way of human beings interacting with each other. Right,
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 1: completely different paradigm, Like society moves into a totally different realm. Right.
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 2: Not everybody will are interested in.
• 2:01:37
  Speaker 1: That, right, So a lot of people are very uninterested
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 1: in that, yea, And they would fuck with their.
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 2: Business actively not interested like in we don't want that, right,
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 2: and we don't want you to have it either.
• 2:01:48
  Speaker 1: Well, that's a fear that that's a fear that like
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 1: if you had some real breakthroughs that were somehow or
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 1: another going to be a problem for powers that be.
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a problem like we hear.
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 1: About these scientists that are all involved with the UAP
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 1: story wind up dead or disappearing, and people say, well,
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 1: the statistically this can't be a coincidence. This is a
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 1: little too weird. It's gotten to some weird number where
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 1: you're going, we have to look at this, yep. Now,
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 1: so you hear the actual White House is not talking
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 1: about it, like we have to look into this.
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 2: So the way I keep myself safe in our other colleagues,
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 2: we publish everything we do. It's all public domain, so
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 2: we're not doing anything that's secret, right, And the long
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 2: term consequences most people don't think about at all, So
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 2: that too. I mean, there are all kinds of technologies
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 2: that are being developed that may have bad consequences in
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 2: the future. Not that many people except maybe professional ethicists,
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 2: are thinking about is this a good thing or not?
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 1: Well, just imagine a world where something comes along like
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 1: Le's for lack of a better example, let's use gel ones, right,
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 1: golp ones. Nobody heard about ozepic and wagovi just a
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 1: decade ago. Right now, all of a sudden, it's a
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 1: multi trillion dollar industry. It's gigantic. There's something like thirty
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 1: nine million Americans around these GLP one drugs. Imagine if
• 2:03:15
  Speaker 1: something comes along that is beneficial, and I'm sure that's
• 2:03:22
  Speaker 1: beneficial to obese people, but beneficial in a cognitive way
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 1: for people that you have real science, real science which
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 1: actually achieves a result. This result becomes a supplement and
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 1: it becomes something widely used in spread. Imagine the forms
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 1: of control that are used by society, that are used
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 1: by governments, that are used by mass media, that are
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 1: used by corporations in order to pass whatever regulations they want.
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 1: When you see politicians talking, when you see the real
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 1: agenda behind it, all of it would evaporate. All the bullshit,
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 1: all propaganda would be completely useless. You would enter into
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 1: a completely new cooperative society where all the parasites and
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 1: psychopaths and sociopaths would literally be exposed and you'd have
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 1: to deal with them. You would probably be terrified to
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 1: realize how many of them are in control of so
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 1: many institutions, and how much of what you've been told
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 1: is complete horseshit, how many nonprofits are a scam, how
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 1: many different things that are happening are just happening in
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 1: order to maintain control.
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 2: That's why you can't do this overnight. Right, So the
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 2: justice system would be totally different, politics would be totally
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 2: everything would be totally.
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 1: Different, economics, everything, resources, everything.
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 2: So there is a TV show kind of with this
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 2: plot now, the one called Pluribus. Yes write the science
• 2:04:56
  Speaker 2: fiction show, which I think is doing a great job
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 2: and illustrating them that people. But it's a nightmare well
• 2:05:02
  Speaker 2: people who are who are involved in the Hive Mind.
• 2:05:05
  Speaker 2: It's like suddenly everything is fine.
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't like it. I like the lady that
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 1: gets drunk and.
• 2:05:10
  Speaker 2: Yells at because yeah, because it's a nice it's a
• 2:05:13
  Speaker 2: nice story.
• 2:05:13
  Speaker 1: It's like it's also recognizable human.
• 2:05:17
  Speaker 2: That's she's she's us, Yes, she's us. Yeah. But and
• 2:05:21
  Speaker 2: of course there are stories like the Borg and Star
• 2:05:23
  Speaker 2: Trek and that the way of Hive Mind is portrayed
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 2: is horrific. Why because it's ego dropping. That's why it.
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 1: Also eliminates creativity, individual expression. We don't know, right because
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 1: I think of it in the show. It does. In
• 2:05:38
  Speaker 1: the show, everybody just becomes a worker.
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 2: Not no, impluribus no, not a worker.
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 1: But I mean they're all connected, they're all.
• 2:05:45
  Speaker 2: Like yeah, that means everybody can have the skill of
• 2:05:47
  Speaker 2: a surgeon everybody. Right, So, so you have a bunch
• 2:05:51
  Speaker 2: of naturally creative people out there, well they all have
• 2:05:54
  Speaker 2: it now.
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 1: Right, that's right, that's the glass half full version of it, right.
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right? Would we be collectively even be more creative?
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 1: Right if instead of you know, asking perplexity a question,
• 2:06:07
  Speaker 1: you just ask the universe.
• 2:06:08
  Speaker 2: A question you asked the collective.
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 1: You ask the collective how to fix the carburetor?
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you know how to do it. Yeah.
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 1: So that's so.
• 2:06:17
  Speaker 2: I mean from a point of view of efficiency and
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 2: peace and all that stuff, I think it'd be great.
• 2:06:23
  Speaker 1: Well, it's also people have to look at it this way.
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 1: Just what you have now by having a phone and
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 1: being able to, like I said, just ask perplexity any
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 1: question on human history, any question on mathematics, coding, anything.
• 2:06:37
  Speaker 1: It gives you all the available information instantaneously in your phone.
• 2:06:41
  Speaker 1: If you just said that to someone thirty years ago,
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 1: they would say you're fucking crazy. You look at all
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 1: the depictions and science fiction about the future. None of
• 2:06:48
  Speaker 1: them involve the Internet, none of them involve phones. None
• 2:06:51
  Speaker 1: of them involve devices that you carry around that have
• 2:06:54
  Speaker 1: twenty four hours of fucking battery life that can essentially
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 1: do whatever you want. Take pictures, makes record audio, download movies,
• 2:07:05
  Speaker 1: watch them instantaneously. You could fucking do anything in these things,
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 1: and we're just accustomed to it. It's just normal. Imagine
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 1: a society where this technology that you're developing, imagine this
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 1: you continue this research ten twenty thirty years. What do
• 2:07:21
  Speaker 1: we have? What does this look like? What does you
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 1: and me even talking look like. One of the reasons
• 2:07:29
  Speaker 1: why I insist on doing these things in person, because
• 2:07:32
  Speaker 1: I think it's a very different experience. I just intuitively,
• 2:07:36
  Speaker 1: it just feels different when someone's in the room, when
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 1: you're having a conversation with someone in the room. I've
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 1: had great conversations with people through Zoom, like with Edward Snowden.
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 1: When we do podcasts. We have to do it that
• 2:07:46
  Speaker 1: way for obvious reasons. But there's something missing people. When
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 1: you and I are talking right now, there's something else
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 1: going on. We're our minds are connecting, and we're connecting
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 1: somehow with all the people that are listening. There's this
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 1: weird thing that happens, and it happens when people in
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 1: proximity to each other, when they're right in the same
• 2:08:06
  Speaker 1: room with each other.
• 2:08:08
  Speaker 2: There's something to that, right, So now think of the downside,
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 2: the compensation for having phones everywhere. Oh yeah, so you
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 2: talk to teachers about it, and they are running scared. Sure, right,
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 2: kids don't know how to write anything anymore. And not
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 2: only that, if you start relying on perpexity or any
• 2:08:28
  Speaker 2: other kind of AI, you're in serious trouble because those
• 2:08:31
  Speaker 2: things are not perfect.
• 2:08:32
  Speaker 1: Right, right, They have hallucinations. Yeah, that you bad information.
• 2:08:37
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you saw this. There was a gentleman who
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 1: was recently he was a lawyer involved in a case
• 2:08:43
  Speaker 1: and he was citing these oh yeah, you know that story.
• 2:08:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 1: So he's citing various cases that just didn't exist, yep,
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 1: And he had gotten them from AI yep.
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 2: And it probably looks structurally correct, except it wasn't actually real.
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 1: He thought he had it beautiful. I got this case
• 2:08:59
  Speaker 1: wrapped up up and the judge is like, none of
• 2:09:02
  Speaker 1: these things you're saying you have happened and they're not true.
• 2:09:05
  Speaker 1: That's some other world bizarre right. Well, hopefully that'll get
• 2:09:09
  Speaker 1: ironed out, right, But the point is you're relying now
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 1: on the device to do all the thinking for you,
• 2:09:16
  Speaker 1: and you're you're not absorbing much of that information. You're
• 2:09:19
  Speaker 1: not absorbing it the same way.
• 2:09:21
  Speaker 2: I can say as a scientist that AI is making
• 2:09:24
  Speaker 2: my job much much much easier. So I use claud
• 2:09:27
  Speaker 2: code a lot. We use it also in our genetic research.
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 2: It is making things more efficient because basically, for coding
• 2:09:37
  Speaker 2: up until things like claud code, it took a lot
• 2:09:40
  Speaker 2: of skill and time to be able to write something
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 2: that did what you wanted to do.
• 2:09:45
  Speaker 1: But you're already a disciplined thinker, you're not a developing mind.
• 2:09:48
  Speaker 2: Well not only that, but when I ask I asked
• 2:09:51
  Speaker 2: AI to help me write something immediately see all kinds
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 2: of things that it doesn't. Though I say, well where
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 2: did where did you even get that information? It basically response, well,
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 2: I scraped it off of the entire internet. Well you
• 2:10:04
  Speaker 2: didn't scrape very well, because you know, did you look
• 2:10:07
  Speaker 2: at this, and did you look at this and that?
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 2: And it comes back immediately and says, oh, I apologize,
• 2:10:12
  Speaker 2: I didn't. I didn't look at that part. Because the
• 2:10:14
  Speaker 2: algorithms are designed to work fast, right, and so it'll
• 2:10:17
  Speaker 2: pull like the surface off and usually that's okay.
• 2:10:21
  Speaker 1: It could be a troll Reddit post for someone's just
• 2:10:23
  Speaker 1: fucking around.
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 2: Who knows what it is like half a Wikipedia is
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 2: written by teenagers. So yeah, so you need to already
• 2:10:30
  Speaker 2: have a knowledge base so they can challenge what it's
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 2: telling you because sometimes it's completely off.
• 2:10:36
  Speaker 1: Right, Well, this is in the beginning stages of this application, right.
• 2:10:40
  Speaker 1: If you think about the beginning stages of the printing press,
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 1: most of the books were like kind of spot spot witches.
• 2:10:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. So one hopes that things will well.
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 2: Of course, the danger at this point is the AI
• 2:10:52
  Speaker 2: is eventually right itself, and it's already getting to that point,
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 2: and then we completely lose what's going on.
• 2:10:59
  Speaker 1: We have no idea, right, that gets weird.
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was already true with the development of neural networks.
• 2:11:05
  Speaker 2: So I was using neural networks back in the eighties.
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 2: My first idea first came up, and so you would
• 2:11:11
  Speaker 2: it would learn that this is related to that, and
• 2:11:14
  Speaker 2: it would do it through the neural network training, and
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 2: then you say, well, what did you learn? You couldn't
• 2:11:19
  Speaker 2: figure it out because you have all of these these
• 2:11:22
  Speaker 2: weights and nodes inside the network that were encoding the information,
• 2:11:26
  Speaker 2: but you couldn't then extract out from it to say, well,
• 2:11:29
  Speaker 2: how did you learn this? I couldn't even tell you
• 2:11:33
  Speaker 2: how I learned it, but it did and learned it
• 2:11:36
  Speaker 2: really well. So that's a lot of that is going
• 2:11:39
  Speaker 2: on in the AI world too, that it's learning things
• 2:11:43
  Speaker 2: really really well, but it's too complex for us to understand. Right.
• 2:11:48
  Speaker 1: But do you think if you emphasize discipline thinking and
• 2:11:51
  Speaker 1: teach people specifically how to think and how to learn
• 2:11:55
  Speaker 1: and how to do for themselves, that they could then
• 2:11:59
  Speaker 1: expand and upon that knowledge with AI instead of using
• 2:12:02
  Speaker 1: it as a crutch.
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, is that happening. I haven't seen that yet.
• 2:12:07
  Speaker 1: Well, I haven't seen it either. But one of the
• 2:12:09
  Speaker 1: things that gives me pause is the popularity of long
• 2:12:12
  Speaker 1: form conversations like this, because we have this concept about
• 2:12:16
  Speaker 1: today and about human beings in general, that we're losing
• 2:12:19
  Speaker 1: our attention span. But yet what's one of the most
• 2:12:22
  Speaker 1: popular mediums. It's long form podcasts, right, because I think
• 2:12:25
  Speaker 1: there is still a hunger from a lot of people.
• 2:12:28
  Speaker 1: And whether it's people that grew up at a different
• 2:12:30
  Speaker 1: time where they did learn how to think and now
• 2:12:33
  Speaker 1: they're missing it and then they could find it in
• 2:12:35
  Speaker 1: long form conversations, or whether it's just always going to
• 2:12:40
  Speaker 1: be something that some people intuitively gravitate towards because they
• 2:12:44
  Speaker 1: need more stimulation than they're getting from these simple TikTok
• 2:12:47
  Speaker 1: videos and Instagram reels. I think there's like we have
• 2:12:51
  Speaker 1: this generalization about the perceptions of people and oh, we've
• 2:12:55
  Speaker 1: lost all of our ability to concentrate, Like we don't
• 2:12:58
  Speaker 1: care everyone has a short attention span. I don't think everyone.
• 2:13:01
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people because it's easy. If
• 2:13:05
  Speaker 1: you leave junk food in front of a lot of people,
• 2:13:07
  Speaker 1: they will eat it. If you leave healthy food in
• 2:13:10
  Speaker 1: front of disciplined people, they will say, I don't want
• 2:13:13
  Speaker 1: the junk food. I'm going to have the eggs and
• 2:13:14
  Speaker 1: I'm going to eat healthy. I'm going to take vitamins.
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 1: I'm going to do what I'm supposed to do because
• 2:13:18
  Speaker 1: I know the benefits of it, because I'm a thinking person.
• 2:13:20
  Speaker 2: Right, you may still want the junk food, right, so
• 2:13:23
  Speaker 2: you're able to overrun.
• 2:13:24
  Speaker 1: Us discipline thinking. Right, So I think maybe education will
• 2:13:29
  Speaker 1: move into a realm of being able to understand your
• 2:13:32
  Speaker 1: own personal psychology. But you able to understand the value
• 2:13:36
  Speaker 1: of discipline and the value of having a structure to
• 2:13:39
  Speaker 1: the way you think and being able to apply those things,
• 2:13:43
  Speaker 1: and then also recognizing that whatever this AI is doing
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 1: is just giving you information. It doesn't make you smarter,
• 2:13:49
  Speaker 1: it's not giving you more knowledge. It's just giving you data,
• 2:13:52
  Speaker 1: and you have to then learn how to assimilate that
• 2:13:55
  Speaker 1: data in an actionable way where you could use it
• 2:13:58
  Speaker 1: in life. And we could teach people to do that maybe,
• 2:14:01
  Speaker 1: I hope. So yeah, I mean it seems possible. But again,
• 2:14:04
  Speaker 1: it's like every single technology that comes around. When television
• 2:14:07
  Speaker 1: came around, people were terrified that people are just gonna
• 2:14:09
  Speaker 1: stare at the TV all day, and a lot of
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 1: them did they do, Yeah, a lot of them did.
• 2:14:12
  Speaker 1: But also television which led to the internet. Well, yeah,
• 2:14:16
  Speaker 1: it's definitely distracting people. Yeah yeah, yeah. But also we
• 2:14:19
  Speaker 1: have more access to information, more of an understanding of
• 2:14:22
  Speaker 1: so many different things than ever before, and you have
• 2:14:26
  Speaker 1: the ability to have a conversation like this, right, a
• 2:14:29
  Speaker 1: three hour weird conversation about a very esoteric subject.
• 2:14:33
  Speaker 2: It's not that weird, no, I mean.
• 2:14:35
  Speaker 1: It's not weird. It's cool.
• 2:14:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's different.
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 1: It's exciting. I mean for the people that are interested
• 2:14:41
  Speaker 1: in this kind of conversation, this is like food for them. Yeah, like, oh, exciting.
• 2:14:46
  Speaker 1: You know. I guarantee you a bunch of people will
• 2:14:48
  Speaker 1: see this and see the description of it in Spotify
• 2:14:50
  Speaker 1: and go, oh, it's gonna be a good one, you know,
• 2:14:53
  Speaker 1: because there's a lot of people that have a hunger
• 2:14:54
  Speaker 1: for interesting things. You know. I'm not a dooms guy
• 2:14:59
  Speaker 1: when it comes to technology. I have a feeling we're
• 2:15:02
  Speaker 1: gonna sort it out. But I think it's gonna be
• 2:15:04
  Speaker 1: a it's gonna be a bit of a battle, a
• 2:15:06
  Speaker 1: bit of a struggle. It's a new thing, and you're
• 2:15:10
  Speaker 1: gonna exceptional people are always going to exist, and there's
• 2:15:14
  Speaker 1: always gonna be people that aren't going to be willing
• 2:15:16
  Speaker 1: to just give in to whatever this thing is that
• 2:15:19
  Speaker 1: gives them this crutch and just become a blob that
• 2:15:22
  Speaker 1: just presses buttons to get information instead of thinking. I
• 2:15:25
  Speaker 1: think people are always gonna want to think. It's part
• 2:15:27
  Speaker 1: of what's fascinating about being a person is learning new
• 2:15:30
  Speaker 1: things and expanding your understanding of things and just pretending
• 2:15:34
  Speaker 1: you do is it's a party trick, but the real
• 2:15:38
  Speaker 1: people that the real fascination is actually learning something that
• 2:15:42
  Speaker 1: changes your perceptions. I think people are always gonna want that.
• 2:15:45
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm optimistic because humanity, at least our species is
• 2:15:50
  Speaker 2: extremely resilient. Yes, so all of us have some percentage
• 2:15:55
  Speaker 2: of mutations, which is part of the resilience. I forget
• 2:15:58
  Speaker 2: exactly eleven percent or something like that, every single person,
• 2:16:02
  Speaker 2: even identical twins. That's why we can survive an asteroid hit,
• 2:16:07
  Speaker 2: or that's why we can survive a mistake that happened somewhere. Yeah,
• 2:16:11
  Speaker 2: so ultimately I'm optimistic about it.
• 2:16:14
  Speaker 1: I am too, but I mean i'd look back at
• 2:16:16
  Speaker 1: things like you know, I mean there's been moments since this,
• 2:16:19
  Speaker 1: Like you look at the Pyramids, you go, Okay, what happened?
• 2:16:22
  Speaker 1: Where are those folks they took off? Yeah, I don't know.
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 1: What do you think happened?
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 2: An asteroid or I don't know. I mean, it could
• 2:16:34
  Speaker 2: have been the Ice Age, right, we don't still know
• 2:16:37
  Speaker 2: exactly how old the Pyramids are, so it may have
• 2:16:39
  Speaker 2: been the Ice Age. And now they all move to
• 2:16:41
  Speaker 2: Africa and they're Africans now.
• 2:16:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, something something definitely happened, some strange shift. And that's
• 2:16:49
  Speaker 1: the question is how many times has that happened over
• 2:16:52
  Speaker 1: the course of human civilization. We want to think of
• 2:16:54
  Speaker 1: it as been this linear progression from Caveman to where
• 2:16:56
  Speaker 1: we are now. It doesn't seem to be accurate.
• 2:16:59
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think so.
• 2:17:00
  Speaker 1: But there's a lot of people along with the same
• 2:17:02
  Speaker 1: type of people that want to resist the idea. Even
• 2:17:05
  Speaker 1: if you have data, they don't want to look at
• 2:17:07
  Speaker 1: it because I think it's nonsense. There's also a perception
• 2:17:10
  Speaker 1: of that like there's no way people were more advanced
• 2:17:13
  Speaker 1: five ten thousand and fifteen thousand years ago than they
• 2:17:16
  Speaker 1: are now. That's impossible, Like, well, it kind of is. Yeah,
• 2:17:20
  Speaker 1: it's not impossible, that's for sure. And there seems to
• 2:17:24
  Speaker 1: be some very weird evidence in the form of two million,
• 2:17:27
  Speaker 1: three hundred thousand perfectly cut stones that point to true north, south, east,
• 2:17:32
  Speaker 1: and west that were put in place by the civilization
• 2:17:35
  Speaker 1: that just emerged out of nowhere with this ability kind
• 2:17:39
  Speaker 1: of weird. That's kind of weird too to pretend it's
• 2:17:42
  Speaker 1: not and just write it off to oh, people were smart,
• 2:17:45
  Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, that's it. That's it seems like they
• 2:17:49
  Speaker 1: knew some shit. We don't know they did something we
• 2:17:52
  Speaker 1: can't explain to this day. Yep. Like I don't know
• 2:17:56
  Speaker 1: if I would be so confident as to be able
• 2:17:59
  Speaker 1: to say that there's a linear progression from caveman to us.
• 2:18:02
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's true.
• 2:18:05
  Speaker 2: Hardly anything in the natural world is linear.
• 2:18:10
  Speaker 1: Which just scares me. If we fuck it all up
• 2:18:12
  Speaker 1: right now when you have a nuclear war and it's
• 2:18:14
  Speaker 1: only fifty thousand people left, Like, how long before we
• 2:18:17
  Speaker 1: get to this position where we're trying to almost get
• 2:18:20
  Speaker 1: past this again?
• 2:18:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like it's rough adolescents. Yeah, and so it's true.
• 2:18:26
  Speaker 2: How long do you need to take? Is do you
• 2:18:27
  Speaker 2: need one hundred thousand years of a high technology society maybe?
• 2:18:32
  Speaker 2: Or where are we well, like twenty years, fifty years?
• 2:18:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah into it and yeah we're having a problem right.
• 2:18:39
  Speaker 1: Well, that's where things get really weird when people start
• 2:18:42
  Speaker 1: talking about UAPs and these whatever these beings are, if
• 2:18:46
  Speaker 1: they are real, like are they us? Are they us
• 2:18:50
  Speaker 1: from the future that is coming back to make sure
• 2:18:52
  Speaker 1: that we don't fuck it up and to sort of
• 2:18:54
  Speaker 1: hold our hand through this experiment and just watch and
• 2:18:57
  Speaker 1: observe on the outside in case things go horribly wrong,
• 2:19:00
  Speaker 1: but allow all these mistakes to take place, and allow
• 2:19:03
  Speaker 1: this progression to take place, and just wait it out.
• 2:19:08
  Speaker 2: I'm a fan of how Putoff's ultra terrestrial idea that
• 2:19:13
  Speaker 2: these are not from the future, they're from the past.
• 2:19:15
  Speaker 2: They just happened to be way more advanced than.
• 2:19:18
  Speaker 1: We thought the past. Yeah, I like, how far in
• 2:19:22
  Speaker 1: the past?
• 2:19:23
  Speaker 2: A million years more, one hundred thousand, something like that.
• 2:19:29
  Speaker 2: It's because you think about convergent evolution. So when I
• 2:19:35
  Speaker 2: was at UNLV, one of the places nearby was a
• 2:19:40
  Speaker 2: ornithology laboratory, so birds, so I would I went to
• 2:19:45
  Speaker 2: the museum and he said, oh, these are very nice
• 2:19:47
  Speaker 2: penguins here, and the director said, those aren't penguins. Well,
• 2:19:51
  Speaker 2: what is that looks exactly like a penguin. No, those
• 2:19:54
  Speaker 2: are auks. So there's different birds from the North Pole
• 2:19:57
  Speaker 2: and the South Pole because of convergent evolution, and we're
• 2:20:00
  Speaker 2: shaped to be like this bird. And so I mean,
• 2:20:04
  Speaker 2: they looked absolutely identical to me because I don't know
• 2:20:07
  Speaker 2: that much about penguins anyway, but you know, I said,
• 2:20:09
  Speaker 2: it looks like a penguin, it's not a penguin, yes,
• 2:20:14
  Speaker 2: And so why is it that the aliens that that we.
• 2:20:18
  Speaker 1: That's not a penguin?
• 2:20:20
  Speaker 2: Who probably an awk?
• 2:20:22
  Speaker 1: That's crazy, I know, it's crazy, that's crazyh Yeah.
• 2:20:27
  Speaker 2: So we had one of those and had actual a
• 2:20:28
  Speaker 2: penguin next to each other in the museum, and I thought,
• 2:20:32
  Speaker 2: well that, you know what is that?
• 2:20:34
  Speaker 1: Wow?
• 2:20:35
  Speaker 2: So a lot of these aliens that people talk about
• 2:20:38
  Speaker 2: are basically like humans.
• 2:20:39
  Speaker 1: Awks can fly and swim and they're smaller. Yeah, wow,
• 2:20:45
  Speaker 1: but they're so similarly even the color the color the
• 2:20:48
  Speaker 1: color is crazy, Like what is the benefit of the
• 2:20:52
  Speaker 1: the whole thing.
• 2:20:53
  Speaker 2: Is, so why do we have a so called Nordic
• 2:20:57
  Speaker 2: aliens that look a lot like people in scanday?
• 2:21:00
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 2:21:01
  Speaker 2: But that was I mean you think either come from
• 2:21:05
  Speaker 2: a planet that is almost exactly earthlike, which is possible,
• 2:21:08
  Speaker 2: I guess, or they've already been here. They've been here
• 2:21:12
  Speaker 2: a long long time, And the same for many of
• 2:21:14
  Speaker 2: the other aliens that people talk about. It's they're humanoid. Well,
• 2:21:18
  Speaker 2: humanoid is shaped for a evolution to be in a
• 2:21:22
  Speaker 2: certain place, because like, we're so well shaped by evolution
• 2:21:27
  Speaker 2: that we can go outside on an average place and
• 2:21:30
  Speaker 2: even though there's only a couple of miles of atmosphere,
• 2:21:34
  Speaker 2: we're perfectly fine.
• 2:21:36
  Speaker 1: Are you aware of those examples of very bizarre heads
• 2:21:39
  Speaker 1: that they've found, skulls they've found in places like Peru
• 2:21:42
  Speaker 1: that don't have the sagital suture that have a brain
• 2:21:45
  Speaker 1: capacity that's thirty percent larger than ours. There's some weird skeletons.
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so Gary Nolan talked about this, I think.
• 2:21:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and there's real examples of it. These aren't theoretical.
• 2:21:59
  Speaker 1: You can find these skulls that have a larger brain
• 2:22:02
  Speaker 1: capacity and you know, they've attributed to a real practice
• 2:22:07
  Speaker 1: of flattening heads, of shaping skulls. That's a real practice.
• 2:22:11
  Speaker 1: But the question has become was did that real practice
• 2:22:15
  Speaker 1: emerge to mimic a type of creature that was already
• 2:22:19
  Speaker 1: that already existed. Yep, Because these skulls. See if you
• 2:22:23
  Speaker 1: can find one of them, Jamie, they're very weird looking like,
• 2:22:27
  Speaker 1: they're very weird. They're big, they're bigger than a normal
• 2:22:31
  Speaker 1: human skull, they have more brain capacity, and it's an
• 2:22:35
  Speaker 1: elongated shape. It's a different shape. This is not like
• 2:22:40
  Speaker 1: a science fiction theory. This is not like an artist's rendition.
• 2:22:43
  Speaker 1: This is an actual real skull that doesn't have the
• 2:22:46
  Speaker 1: sagital suture.
• 2:22:47
  Speaker 2: No.
• 2:22:47
  Speaker 1: No, no, that's the alien things these are. That's that's
• 2:22:51
  Speaker 1: those those monstrat that's that thing that a lot of
• 2:22:55
  Speaker 1: people think is a frauds. They were talking about now yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 2:22:58
  Speaker 1: but there's actually elongated skulls that they found. Elongated skull
• 2:23:02
  Speaker 1: just don't pull in triedactal mummy, just put in elongated skull.
• 2:23:09
  Speaker 1: No sagital suture. There you go like that that one
• 2:23:14
  Speaker 1: right there, Like what the fuck is that? That does
• 2:23:19
  Speaker 1: not look like a person? That is a real skull.
• 2:23:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so some of that is shaping, sure, right, some
• 2:23:27
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 2:23:28
  Speaker 1: Some of these are. But the ones without the sagital
• 2:23:30
  Speaker 1: suture are really weird. Yeah, because that's a thing that
• 2:23:33
  Speaker 1: all human babies have. Because as your brain grows and
• 2:23:36
  Speaker 1: your head grows, your you know, your your brain, your
• 2:23:40
  Speaker 1: skull is kind of malleable. That doesn't have it. And
• 2:23:44
  Speaker 1: some of these that they found actually have more brain capacity,
• 2:23:49
  Speaker 1: so the shaping of it wouldn't change the brain capacity.
• 2:23:53
  Speaker 1: So some of them do have that sagital crest, that
• 2:23:55
  Speaker 1: agital suture, some of them don't. And that one that
• 2:23:59
  Speaker 1: you show up there, I hope that's not an AI.
• 2:24:02
  Speaker 1: That one doesn't. I think that's real hard to see,
• 2:24:07
  Speaker 1: could be, could be, but it's been described by people
• 2:24:10
  Speaker 1: who have examined them as being different. There's also the
• 2:24:13
  Speaker 1: positioning of where it connects with the spine is different,
• 2:24:18
  Speaker 1: Oh Sarah, that goes right there where the spinal column enters.
• 2:24:20
  Speaker 1: The bottom of the skull is very much further back
• 2:24:22
  Speaker 1: than normal. A genetic adaptation or a different kind of person,
• 2:24:28
  Speaker 1: a different kind of person that co existed. Like, look
• 2:24:30
  Speaker 1: at that one right there, Jamie, the every Crishern click
• 2:24:32
  Speaker 1: on that. That's crazy, Like that is really crazy. That's
• 2:24:37
  Speaker 1: a replica. Wild looking, but that's a replica. So what's
• 2:24:42
  Speaker 1: the real one? The real one is the one that
• 2:24:43
  Speaker 1: you showed has Instagram on it. That's a real one.
• 2:24:47
  Speaker 1: Like that is kind of bananas. And if that's not
• 2:24:51
  Speaker 1: done through forming of the skull and pushing the skull
• 2:24:55
  Speaker 1: into the new shape, what is it? And were they
• 2:24:58
  Speaker 1: doing that because they were trying to mimic something that
• 2:25:00
  Speaker 1: was superior to them. And that's where it gets weird.
• 2:25:03
  Speaker 1: Like that those real elongated skulls income museum up there
• 2:25:07
  Speaker 1: right above your cursor. Yeah, to the left right there.
• 2:25:11
  Speaker 1: That's crazy looking, man, that's really crazy looking. And again
• 2:25:15
  Speaker 1: that one doesn't seem to have that saginal suture neither.
• 2:25:20
  Speaker 1: What does that one down there that says one to eighteen.
• 2:25:22
  Speaker 1: They're fucking strange. So if that was an actual different
• 2:25:26
  Speaker 1: kind of human being that existed along with us. God,
• 2:25:30
  Speaker 1: that explains a lot.
• 2:25:32
  Speaker 2: Well, they're not here anymore, right unless there are ultra
• 2:25:36
  Speaker 2: terrestrials and they are living in the bottom of the ocean.
• 2:25:39
  Speaker 1: Right. I don't know about that. But if they, if
• 2:25:42
  Speaker 1: that's them, who knows. I mean, you could get to
• 2:25:46
  Speaker 1: a point where a civilization becomes so advanced that the
• 2:25:49
  Speaker 1: biological entities aren't necessary anymore, and then that would explain
• 2:25:53
  Speaker 1: why they why they could exist at the bottom of
• 2:25:56
  Speaker 1: the ocean, why they could exist with no oxygen, why
• 2:25:58
  Speaker 1: they could they no longer or become dependent upon their
• 2:26:02
  Speaker 1: environment to survive.
• 2:26:04
  Speaker 2: They might have creative environments, right, like the like the
• 2:26:09
  Speaker 2: movie there was a movie I forget the name now
• 2:26:16
  Speaker 2: what was the premise. It was that there's a ship
• 2:26:19
  Speaker 2: and there's like a missing submarine and so they dive
• 2:26:24
  Speaker 2: down to it, but then they see lights coming up.
• 2:26:27
  Speaker 1: Oh the abyss. Yes, Yeah, that was a great movie. Yep,
• 2:26:30
  Speaker 1: that was a good one. Yeah. Well, there's always been
• 2:26:33
  Speaker 1: stories about I mean, timber Shat the Congressman came on
• 2:26:36
  Speaker 1: this podcast and was talking about how there's five different
• 2:26:39
  Speaker 1: locations in the deep ocean, but they're aware of activity
• 2:26:42
  Speaker 1: that things have happened there, they continue to happen. But
• 2:26:45
  Speaker 1: if you were going to study Earth, if you if
• 2:26:48
  Speaker 1: you had to be like local, like, where would you go?
• 2:26:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you can come here from another dimension,
• 2:26:53
  Speaker 1: another galaxy, or wherever you're coming from, you'd probably go
• 2:26:56
  Speaker 1: in the ocean, you'd have I mean, they've observed these
• 2:26:59
  Speaker 1: trans media crafts. They were able to fly and go
• 2:27:02
  Speaker 1: into the water. Isn't that orc? The awk thing? Isn't
• 2:27:06
  Speaker 1: that kind of trans medium? It flies, swims?
• 2:27:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it could. It's an alien form of a penguin.
• 2:27:14
  Speaker 1: But it is at a certain point in time. You
• 2:27:16
  Speaker 1: would imagine if we could get far more advanced than
• 2:27:20
  Speaker 1: we are now and we found out about a society
• 2:27:22
  Speaker 1: that is at a stage where we are currently, for sure,
• 2:27:26
  Speaker 1: we'd go visit. For sure, we would observe, and we
• 2:27:29
  Speaker 1: would also probably try to stop nuclear war.
• 2:27:33
  Speaker 2: It is an interesting question because the prime directive and
• 2:27:37
  Speaker 2: Star Trek is you don't mess with them, right, right?
• 2:27:40
  Speaker 2: But they always do.
• 2:27:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well Star Trek is they didn't even have
• 2:27:44
  Speaker 1: the Internet. They had walkie talkies, Kirk out.
• 2:27:48
  Speaker 2: They know, they had the communicator things.
• 2:27:49
  Speaker 1: So they were talking about the next generation.
• 2:27:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't know how that works.
• 2:27:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm talking about the original.
• 2:27:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, No, original is pretty good though, really good.
• 2:27:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, especially when you think about it was like the
• 2:27:59
  Speaker 1: nineteen what sixties came out?
• 2:28:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So part of my personal mission was
• 2:28:05
  Speaker 2: to make Star Trek real.
• 2:28:08
  Speaker 1: That's like it's including beaming people up.
• 2:28:10
  Speaker 2: Oh no, it's like the Vulcan, the most rational creature
• 2:28:14
  Speaker 2: on there was the one who could do the mind meld. Yes,
• 2:28:17
  Speaker 2: that's why I was thinking, Yeah, okay, an advanced species,
• 2:28:21
  Speaker 2: this stuff is taken for granted, right, that's where my
• 2:28:25
  Speaker 2: vision is seeing. Yeah, and so that advanced species may
• 2:28:29
  Speaker 2: be us might need a little evolutionary push with genetics,
• 2:28:33
  Speaker 2: but yeah, we could do that too.
• 2:28:34
  Speaker 1: So in this concept of the ultraterrestrial, that these things
• 2:28:38
  Speaker 1: have come from the past, like how are they here?
• 2:28:41
  Speaker 2: They've always been here, They've.
• 2:28:42
  Speaker 1: Always been here. They just exist, but they exist in
• 2:28:45
  Speaker 1: a different way.
• 2:28:46
  Speaker 2: Well, so imagine, even given current technology, if there was
• 2:28:50
  Speaker 2: another Rice Age coming and we may have a thousand
• 2:28:53
  Speaker 2: years to prepare, would we be smart enough to do that?
• 2:28:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Could we do it? Yes, you probably could, boy? Yeah.
• 2:29:03
  Speaker 2: And then so so another thousand years passes in your
• 2:29:06
  Speaker 2: below ground somewhere, and then there're the cavemen who are beginning.
• 2:29:11
  Speaker 2: Well do we interact with them or not? Well, it's
• 2:29:14
  Speaker 2: an interesting question, like we don't want to get involved
• 2:29:18
  Speaker 2: in all that mess because.
• 2:29:19
  Speaker 1: We sort of like how we don't visit North Sentinel Island.
• 2:29:23
  Speaker 1: Maybe you know those people that live the uncontacted tribe. Yeah, yeah,
• 2:29:29
  Speaker 1: it's like you're literally not allowed to go there.
• 2:29:32
  Speaker 2: Let them develop the way they shall develop. Yeah, wow,
• 2:29:36
  Speaker 2: yeah I can.
• 2:29:37
  Speaker 1: I can. I could accept that. Well, there's if if
• 2:29:43
  Speaker 1: it turns out that there is some activity, that there
• 2:29:46
  Speaker 1: are some things that we can't explain that are happening
• 2:29:49
  Speaker 1: from deep in the ocean, we're going to have to
• 2:29:52
  Speaker 1: come up with some sort of an explanation. If that
• 2:29:54
  Speaker 1: is an actual intelligent species, intelligent life form, something, whatever
• 2:29:59
  Speaker 1: it is, there's got to be some explanation for that.
• 2:30:03
  Speaker 1: So the ultra terrestrial one is just as good.
• 2:30:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's an explanation for everything. The question is A
• 2:30:11
  Speaker 2: are we smart enough to figure it out? And B
• 2:30:14
  Speaker 2: how long will it take? And both of those are
• 2:30:18
  Speaker 2: complete unknowns. But that's I mean, that's yet another reason
• 2:30:22
  Speaker 2: why I like the kind of work that I do that.
• 2:30:23
  Speaker 2: You need to have very high tolerance or ambiguity, of
• 2:30:27
  Speaker 2: which I do. Like, I'm okay with not knowing a
• 2:30:30
  Speaker 2: lot of basically everything, I know enough to be able
• 2:30:34
  Speaker 2: to be dangerous, but otherwise I don't mind that I
• 2:30:37
  Speaker 2: don't know.
• 2:30:38
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm very thankful that people like you were out there,
• 2:30:41
  Speaker 1: because if you weren't out there doing this work, and
• 2:30:43
  Speaker 1: you weren't out there expanding on this, I mean, it's
• 2:30:45
  Speaker 1: really fascinating when if something like this does emerge, it
• 2:30:49
  Speaker 1: would change the human race. And think about the small
• 2:30:52
  Speaker 1: amount of people that are involved in this research. Heiny
• 2:30:56
  Speaker 1: kind of crazy. Yeah, it's a huge responsibility. You have
• 2:30:59
  Speaker 1: a lot.
• 2:31:00
  Speaker 2: Well, fortunately I also enjoy it, so I mean, I'm
• 2:31:04
  Speaker 2: having fun while I'm doing this, because otherwise I think
• 2:31:08
  Speaker 2: I would have chosen some other door. I mean, I
• 2:31:10
  Speaker 2: had plenty of opportunities to work with golden handcuffs somewhere,
• 2:31:14
  Speaker 2: but I get bored easily, and this is the one
• 2:31:17
  Speaker 2: area where I have never gotten bored.
• 2:31:19
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm very thankful. Thank you for being here too,
• 2:31:22
  Speaker 1: And tell everybody where they did you do an audio
• 2:31:25
  Speaker 1: version of this book.
• 2:31:26
  Speaker 2: I have an actor do it because I don't want
• 2:31:28
  Speaker 2: anybody to have to suffer with twelve hours of my
• 2:31:31
  Speaker 2: voice because it won't last that long. Yeah, so there's
• 2:31:36
  Speaker 2: an actor that does it. It is very, very good.
• 2:31:40
  Speaker 2: And so yeah, there's one other story I want to
• 2:31:43
  Speaker 2: say that's in the book. So this is a synchronicity,
• 2:31:46
  Speaker 2: which again gave me the idea that we don't know
• 2:31:48
  Speaker 2: the limits of what we're dealing with. It's important. So
• 2:31:52
  Speaker 2: I mentioned that after Interval, we started a nonprofit. This
• 2:31:56
  Speaker 2: was called Boundary Institute. It was in Silicon Valley. We
• 2:32:00
  Speaker 2: found a office park in Los Alto's which is just
• 2:32:05
  Speaker 2: outside of Chilico Valley, and so we found a space
• 2:32:10
  Speaker 2: like we liked it. We decided to get that, so
• 2:32:13
  Speaker 2: that's where our new place would be. So I we
• 2:32:16
  Speaker 2: was close enough to where I lived, so I was
• 2:32:18
  Speaker 2: able to walk to work. I always walked a certain way.
• 2:32:21
  Speaker 2: One day I decided to walk a different way and
• 2:32:23
  Speaker 2: I go past another office called Siquest Inc. PSI Quest Inc.
• 2:32:29
  Speaker 2: And I thought that that's an interesting coincidence because we're
• 2:32:33
  Speaker 2: doing cy research and now we have SyQuest Inc. We
• 2:32:36
  Speaker 2: thought it was Personnel Services Incorporated. Something we didn't know
• 2:32:40
  Speaker 2: what it was. We thought that was funny. About three
• 2:32:43
  Speaker 2: weeks go by and I decide to walk a different
• 2:32:46
  Speaker 2: way to work. I'm going through this office place different ways,
• 2:32:50
  Speaker 2: and I noticed that right next to our office is
• 2:32:53
  Speaker 2: something with a tiny little sign that says siquest Labs.
• 2:32:57
  Speaker 2: And so now we're thinking, what does a personnel services
• 2:33:01
  Speaker 2: thing need with a laboratory? So I look through the
• 2:33:03
  Speaker 2: mini blinds. There's nobody in there. So now I'm determined
• 2:33:06
  Speaker 2: to find out what are you guys doing. So every
• 2:33:09
  Speaker 2: day over the next couple of weeks, I go past
• 2:33:12
  Speaker 2: that place and knock on the door, and I'm looking
• 2:33:14
  Speaker 2: through the blinds. There's nobody there. Finally, one day I
• 2:33:18
  Speaker 2: see somebody in there. Knock on the door and I'm
• 2:33:20
  Speaker 2: going to say hello, my name is The door opens,
• 2:33:23
  Speaker 2: the guy's jaw drops before I get say my name,
• 2:33:27
  Speaker 2: and he says Dean Raiden. And then now I'm thinking, well,
• 2:33:32
  Speaker 2: I've never seen you before. I don't know who you are.
• 2:33:34
  Speaker 2: How do you know who I am? So he says
• 2:33:39
  Speaker 2: who says his name? And they say, well, what are
• 2:33:43
  Speaker 2: you doing here? I'm doing what you're doing? What do
• 2:33:46
  Speaker 2: you think we're doing? Cybersearch parapsychology, like what you're doing?
• 2:33:51
  Speaker 2: So I had to sit down at that point because
• 2:33:54
  Speaker 2: we knew everybody in the world who's doing this. There's
• 2:33:57
  Speaker 2: only like forty of us around the world, maybe five
• 2:34:00
  Speaker 2: or six different locations. Here is a SSI research laboratory
• 2:34:04
  Speaker 2: in Silicon Valley that no one has ever heard about before.
• 2:34:08
  Speaker 2: And so I said, well, how did you know who
• 2:34:11
  Speaker 2: I was? Even if you knew, we had nothing in
• 2:34:14
  Speaker 2: our door that said it was CYB Research, It said
• 2:34:16
  Speaker 2: Boundary Institute. He said, I was looking to contact you
• 2:34:21
  Speaker 2: because I want you to be on my board of directors.
• 2:34:24
  Speaker 2: But I didn't know where you were, and I didn't
• 2:34:26
  Speaker 2: know how to contact you. So I opened the door
• 2:34:29
  Speaker 2: and there I am. So I said, well, what were
• 2:34:32
  Speaker 2: you doing? He was doing an exercise called the yoga Nidra,
• 2:34:36
  Speaker 2: which is the yoga of sleep, but there's a magical
• 2:34:39
  Speaker 2: element to it as well. So over a course of
• 2:34:41
  Speaker 2: twenty four hours, for three hours he was awake three hours,
• 2:34:45
  Speaker 2: he sleeps back and forth over the course of twenty
• 2:34:47
  Speaker 2: four hours. While awake, he's picturing that I show up,
• 2:34:53
  Speaker 2: And so I opened the door, and that's why his
• 2:34:55
  Speaker 2: jaw dropped because at that point he was awake, he
• 2:34:58
  Speaker 2: was walking around, but I showed up, and he was
• 2:35:02
  Speaker 2: trying to make me show up, so in a sense,
• 2:35:04
  Speaker 2: he manifested me. Now I think I have free rell
• 2:35:08
  Speaker 2: like we you know, we freely chose that office next door.
• 2:35:11
  Speaker 2: I freely went to the door, I freely did everything.
• 2:35:14
  Speaker 2: But apparently it was being pulled by him. So well
• 2:35:18
  Speaker 2: that was strange, and so I said, well, so how
• 2:35:22
  Speaker 2: are you doing this? What are you doing? And so
• 2:35:25
  Speaker 2: he gave me a tour of his laboratory. That's when
• 2:35:28
  Speaker 2: my jaw dropped because what I had been doing adjacent
• 2:35:32
  Speaker 2: wall next to his, without knowing what's going over there,
• 2:35:35
  Speaker 2: on a whiteboard, I was drawing a special kind of
• 2:35:38
  Speaker 2: chair that we wanted in a special shielded room, and
• 2:35:41
  Speaker 2: equipment and everything on the whiteboard. That's what he had.
• 2:35:45
  Speaker 2: The other side of that wall is what he had
• 2:35:48
  Speaker 2: in his laboratory.
• 2:35:50
  Speaker 1: WHOA, yeah.
• 2:35:51
  Speaker 2: So it's like a four part synchronicity where I was
• 2:35:55
  Speaker 2: drawing to me what I wanted. I didn't know the
• 2:35:58
  Speaker 2: other side of the wall, but I was drawing it
• 2:36:00
  Speaker 2: into existence. He was at the same time drawing me.
• 2:36:04
  Speaker 2: So we had the same intentions draw each other essentially,
• 2:36:08
  Speaker 2: and we literally got pulled into the same location at
• 2:36:11
  Speaker 2: the same time.
• 2:36:12
  Speaker 1: That's incredible. Yeah.
• 2:36:14
  Speaker 2: So it was so incredible that I told the other
• 2:36:17
  Speaker 2: guys in our institute, and in the sense they understood
• 2:36:21
  Speaker 2: what was happening because they saw the same laboratory and stuff.
• 2:36:25
  Speaker 2: After a while, we never talked about it again. But
• 2:36:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, it was so bizarre and so magical in
• 2:36:33
  Speaker 2: a sense that we all thought we were doing things
• 2:36:36
  Speaker 2: of our own free will, but apparently not. So I
• 2:36:40
  Speaker 2: started looking into yoga nidra, the magical side of it.
• 2:36:44
  Speaker 2: It's all about intention, focused intention in a non ordinary state,
• 2:36:49
  Speaker 2: and it is literally a magical practice out of the
• 2:36:53
  Speaker 2: yoga tradition. So yet another reason why I'm writing about
• 2:36:57
  Speaker 2: the science of magic, the real magic, and showing how
• 2:37:00
  Speaker 2: a lot of the science that we know now actually overlaps.
• 2:37:03
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 2:37:04
  Speaker 2: It's just it's not at the level of what you
• 2:37:06
  Speaker 2: would get in Harry Potter, but nevertheless, a lot of
• 2:37:10
  Speaker 2: it is real.
• 2:37:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you for telling the story. That's awesome. Thank you
• 2:37:15
  Speaker 1: for being here too. It is really exciting. I really
• 2:37:17
  Speaker 1: enjoyed it very much. Thank you. So the book The
• 2:37:20
  Speaker 1: Science of Magic yep available everywhere. Thank you, yep. Is
• 2:37:25
  Speaker 1: this for me? Yep? Oh, I got a copy all right,
• 2:37:28
  Speaker 1: thank you very much. This is really, really, really fun.
• 2:37:30
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Let's do it again. I'm excited to hear
• 2:37:33
  Speaker 1: where you go with this stuff.
• 2:37:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right, maybe next time I'll bring that nose preak.
• 2:37:37
  Speaker 1: Let's do it, bring it all right, thank you everybody,