Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Autopsies & 911 calls bring new clues in Lucas Hernandez mystery

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Autopsies & 911 calls bring new clues in Lucas Hernandez mystery · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: code Nancy. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius x
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  Speaker 1: HIM Triumph Channel one two. Daddy goes out of town
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  Speaker 1: to work and then gets the distressing news his son
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  Speaker 1: is missing. Driving straight home through the night. Overnight, he
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  Speaker 1: arrives to find more questions than answers. In the last hours,
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  Speaker 1: we learned the autopsy result of that little boy, five
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  Speaker 1: year old Lucas Hernandez. His little body found under a
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  Speaker 1: bridge and an obscure rural area. And who but his
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  Speaker 1: old stepmother led a private investigator to that obscure spot,
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  Speaker 1: Emily Glass. I mean, see, Grace, this is Crime Stories.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. In addition to obtaining
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  Speaker 1: the autopsy report on little Lucas, we have also learned
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  Speaker 1: the cause of death on the stepmother Emily Glass. Joining
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  Speaker 1: me right now were now medical examiner Dr William Moroney.
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  Speaker 1: Let's first start with little Lucas, five year old Lucas
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  Speaker 1: he goes missing in the care of his so called stepmother,
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  Speaker 1: Dr Maroney, what do you make of it? The autopsy
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  Speaker 1: is an autopsy of the body of a child in
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  Speaker 1: advanced state of decomposition, so there's not a lot of
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  Speaker 1: traditional landmarks. There's the skeletal remains, and there's a sample
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  Speaker 1: from the liver and the body or of the remains
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  Speaker 1: were tested for drugs. The most important thing is the
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  Speaker 1: liver and the kidneys were tested because in the case
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  Speaker 1: of drugs, drugs are metabolized and they're metabolized through the
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  Speaker 1: liver and through the kidneys. There does not appear to
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  Speaker 1: be skeletal trauma or damage, but the cause of death
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  Speaker 1: and the manner of death is officially listed as undetermined.
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  Speaker 1: But when you go to the evidence the liver and
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  Speaker 1: the kidney, there is a positive drug result for something
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  Speaker 1: called beta a al ethylamine and fennel ethyla means are stimulants,
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  Speaker 1: so we do know there is a stimulant. A central
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  Speaker 1: nervous system stimulant in the remains of this five year
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  Speaker 1: old child. Well, that's something I don't really understand. Dr
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  Speaker 1: William Roney. Of course I know what a stimulant is,
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  Speaker 1: like meth amphetamine. If this little boy was given methamine,
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  Speaker 1: could it have killed him if it was an unregulated
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  Speaker 1: dose and it was an unofficial drug. The answer is yes. Now,
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  Speaker 1: methyn fhetamine would have come back from the laboratory toxicology
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  Speaker 1: as methyan fhetamine, but fenel ethylamine being in the same
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  Speaker 1: family also being a stimulant, is currently sold in gas stations,
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  Speaker 1: drug emporiums, and marijuana dispensaries as and you can buy
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  Speaker 1: it on the internet as something they call bath salts,
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  Speaker 1: and it has nothing to do with taking a bath.
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  Speaker 1: It is a pseudo name. It's a fake name for
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  Speaker 1: under the counter stimulants that are unregulated. That seems very
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  Speaker 1: suspicious to me because bath salts can cause seizures, heart attacks,
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  Speaker 1: and we don't put unregulated stimulants of unknown potency into
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  Speaker 1: five year old children. Very suspicious. I hear what you're saying.
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  Speaker 1: It's not making sense to me as it relates to
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  Speaker 1: the discovery of a body joining me right now, Ashley Willcott,
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  Speaker 1: founder of child crime watch dot com juven I'll judge
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  Speaker 1: and lawyer Karen start very now new York psychologist forensics
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  Speaker 1: expert Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics at Jacksona State University
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  Speaker 1: and in newcomer joining us today a veteran felony prosecutor
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  Speaker 1: out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Kenya Johnson. Ashley Wilcott, I
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  Speaker 1: hear Dr Maroney. I know Dr Maroney is correct, but
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  Speaker 1: it's not adding up to me because the way he
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  Speaker 1: says it, um, it's not so bad. But a child
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  Speaker 1: should not have anything like that in their system. On
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  Speaker 1: top of being found dead under a bridge that that's
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  Speaker 1: they've got to be connected in some way and not
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  Speaker 1: in a good way. Absolutely, So that's the first thing
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  Speaker 1: abuse to neglect. No child should have a drug like
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  Speaker 1: that in their system and their liver. Second, Basalt is
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  Speaker 1: especially disturbing to me because you hear, and I'm not
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  Speaker 1: a doctor, but I certainly here in cases before me
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  Speaker 1: as a judge, that they cause psycho this all of
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  Speaker 1: the side effects heart attacks that were just described by
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  Speaker 1: the doctor that are that are horrific in and of themselves,
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  Speaker 1: but much less than a child. To me, it's very
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  Speaker 1: very clear that this child was abused prior to being murdered,
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  Speaker 1: and that that abuse involved illegal drug use such as basalt.
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  Speaker 1: It should never happen. I want you to take a
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  Speaker 1: listen to what Emily Glass says. This is when the
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  Speaker 1: private investigator, David Marshburn has somehow convinced the stepmother to
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  Speaker 1: get into a vehicle with him and drive around. They
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  Speaker 1: drive around for hours and hours and somehow miraculously out
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  Speaker 1: of the entire state and surrounding states. She leads him
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  Speaker 1: to the baby's body. To Emily Glass, she is going
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  Speaker 1: to possibly lead us to Lucas Fernandez has remained h
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  Speaker 1: h h m h huh uh nothing, h huh okay,
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  Speaker 1: I wouldn't let uh. You're definitely coming uh coming back,
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  Speaker 1: uh because I told you I was gonna help you.
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  Speaker 1: Come on running there, get your bandies. It ain't gonna
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  Speaker 1: be half as bad as what you're thinking some of
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  Speaker 1: piece doing him. Why do you say that you know
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  Speaker 1: that's gonna pieces? H Hey, no, no, no, no, Look
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  Speaker 1: we're right here, girl. We ain't going nowhere. Everything is okay,
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  Speaker 1: And what ain't okay with if it's the make. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: we'll be like that. It's gonna be so hard on yourself.
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  Speaker 1: I can't do jail. I kid, you ain't gonna do jail.
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  Speaker 1: But little preach all services is nothing to look me out.
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  Speaker 1: Child Services has nothing preachild with jil bond pre trial
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  Speaker 1: pre trial services. You can choose to the name me. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: so they if they do, we post a bond regardless,
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  Speaker 1: you're still coming out. If they don't agree to pre trial,
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  Speaker 1: we'll post the bottom better just be then you'll have
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  Speaker 1: to contact David. You know, however he says you have
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  Speaker 1: to contact him. Don't be like that. Don't be so
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  Speaker 1: hard on yourself. I know you're scared to death, and
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  Speaker 1: I mean, we're gonna be right here. We're gonna get
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  Speaker 1: you through this whole thing and take you right back
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  Speaker 1: to where we got you from. We're gonna be with
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  Speaker 1: you every step of the way. Why, like, I don't understand,
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  Speaker 1: and you is what now? I don't understand? Why what
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  Speaker 1: do you mean? Why? What? Where would you be? Because
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  Speaker 1: that's what we do. It's our job. Just sorry, so
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  Speaker 1: sorry for I now, it's okay. The only thing you
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  Speaker 1: can do if her hair is moving forward and where's them?
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  Speaker 1: I did a little get so wrong. I didn't wrong,
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  Speaker 1: got honest. Back to Dr William Maroney, UM medical examiner, speaker,
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  Speaker 1: author of a brand new book on Amazon American Narcan.
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  Speaker 1: Dr Maroney, you hear her, hear the dogs barking in
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  Speaker 1: the background. Marsh Burn is driving his truck around in these,
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  Speaker 1: you know, extremely rural areas, and they're sitting there in
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  Speaker 1: his suv right at the site where baby Lucas is
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  Speaker 1: found what's left of him anyway, and she's crying, crying
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  Speaker 1: for herself. She keeps talking about what's going to happen
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  Speaker 1: to me, and she tells Marshburn, I did Luca is
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  Speaker 1: so wrong? I did him so wrong now, and you're
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  Speaker 1: telling me this is just something in a system. You
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  Speaker 1: get it at seven eleven. Why should a kid have
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  Speaker 1: any type of stimulant in his body? And how could
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  Speaker 1: that have had anything to do with his death? Doctor
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  Speaker 1: William Money. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I
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  Speaker 1: guess I'm looking for answers, and I thought I would
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  Speaker 1: get answers from me. It's autopsy reports, and they don't
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  Speaker 1: really seem to be helping me. Part of the reason
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  Speaker 1: why an autopsy that shows up with bath salts. That
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  Speaker 1: is not helpful is the name baths Salts makes it
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  Speaker 1: sounds very soft and innocuous, And that's the fake cover,
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  Speaker 1: that's the false narrative they used to sell it. But
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  Speaker 1: these fetal ethla means are just as bad as metaphetamine,
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  Speaker 1: and they're sold in rural areas, oftentimes competing uh with methymphetamine,
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  Speaker 1: just like cocaine would be used in an urban center.
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  Speaker 1: So think of it as a level of stimulants that
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  Speaker 1: you would find buying meth from a drug dealer, of
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  Speaker 1: buying cocaine from a drug dealer. And forget the idea
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  Speaker 1: that they call it back saults. It's a It's a
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  Speaker 1: terribly unregulated stimulant that could have profound toxic complications in
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  Speaker 1: a full adult, and it's in the body of a
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  Speaker 1: five year old. What do you mean by profound toxic implications?
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  Speaker 1: Can you plays? Dr Maroney? Listen, you got a dummy
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  Speaker 1: down for me. You're the You're the m D. I'm
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  Speaker 1: just a j D. And yes I've got Joe Scott
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  Speaker 1: Morgan on here, but the rest of us are just
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  Speaker 1: mere mortals. First of all, I don't even know what
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  Speaker 1: you're saying I know what meth amphetamine is, but I
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  Speaker 1: don't know when you sling out the name of this drug,
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  Speaker 1: what is said again? Can you slow it down? Speak
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  Speaker 1: in speak in long syllables for me. If you look
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  Speaker 1: at the chemical, it's a very tiny little molecule called me.
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  Speaker 1: But it's profound because al ethylamine. Did you get that, Jackie.
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  Speaker 1: I'm gonna write it out and syllables and phonics, okay,
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  Speaker 1: like we had to do in the first grade. Phenyl ethylamine. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: go ahead. It causes like coosis, delusions and almost like
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  Speaker 1: acid tripping because of the tremendous activity inside the brain.
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  Speaker 1: It works as a secondary drug and neurotransmitter many like amphetamine.
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  Speaker 1: Adderall is used, but it's regulated. And you know how
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  Speaker 1: many milligrams of adderall you get? You get ten, you
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  Speaker 1: get fifteen, you get thirty. It's f D approved. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: You know what, let me break it down. Fennel ethel
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  Speaker 1: la maine. Can it cause death? Absolutely? And a child
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  Speaker 1: that's five years old about forty pounds, there's absolutely no
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  Speaker 1: reason to have final ethlan o none, okay. And trying
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  Speaker 1: to piece together what we know about the death of
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  Speaker 1: little Lucas five year old Lucas Uh. The mystery deepens
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  Speaker 1: to Kenya Johnson, felony prosecutor out of Inner City, Atlanta, Kenya.
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  Speaker 1: What do you make of this scenario. I'm trying to
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  Speaker 1: cobble together what really happened to little Lucas. You know,
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  Speaker 1: I've seen this situation before where sometimes a child could
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  Speaker 1: accidentally ingest something that was a substance purchased for their parents.
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  Speaker 1: So mom likes to smoke marijuana, and the substance can
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  Speaker 1: be found in dispensaries. Maybe it was in a form
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  Speaker 1: that looked like candy and Lucas accidentally ingested it. There's
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  Speaker 1: a bunch of different scenarios, criminal and non criminal, that
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  Speaker 1: this substance could have gotten into his body. And this
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  Speaker 1: is just the tip of the iceberg when we're talking
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  Speaker 1: about the autopsy. Now we know what the issue is.
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  Speaker 1: Now we need to comb through all the specific circumstances.
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  Speaker 1: Why would she fall asleep with the five year old
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  Speaker 1: just running around the house. I have children, I put
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  Speaker 1: them in a room, I set them up. I just
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  Speaker 1: don't go to sleep when they could endanger themselves. Guys,
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  Speaker 1: in the last hours we have obtained the autopsy reports
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  Speaker 1: are not only five year old Lucas, but Emily Glass
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  Speaker 1: as well to Dr William Moroney joining us and Joe
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  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksona State University. Joseph
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  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. Okay, Now Moroney has explained to me what
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  Speaker 1: is in his system, but the surrounding circumstances. That's when
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  Speaker 1: a death investigator comes in. His body is thrown over
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  Speaker 1: a bridge and washes down to one of those It's
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  Speaker 1: kind of like an erosion pan and and that's where
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  Speaker 1: it stops. And if it hadn't been for that pen,
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  Speaker 1: he probably would never have been found. He had been
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  Speaker 1: out in the element so long. His hair was bleached white.
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  Speaker 1: His normally dark brown hair was now white. And there's
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  Speaker 1: hardly any body tissue left on him, but there was enough.
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  Speaker 1: I can't ignore those circumstances, Joseph Scott Morgan, plus what
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  Speaker 1: we're finding in his system. You've studied this. What is
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  Speaker 1: your best put together scenario as to what happened to Lucas.
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  Speaker 1: I was considering this for a moment and uh, and
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  Speaker 1: I'm I'm thinking, you know, had someone exposed him passively,
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  Speaker 1: uh to this drug. The problem with that is that
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  Speaker 1: in order to have been passively exposed. And what I
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  Speaker 1: mean by that if she is using some kind of
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  Speaker 1: synthetic marijuana, UM, it would have to be in tremendous
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  Speaker 1: concentrate shan where he would constantly be exposed to it,
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  Speaker 1: where it's building up in its liver and it's holding on. Remember,
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  Speaker 1: the soft tissue is completely gone. That's evidenced in the
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  Speaker 1: in the in the autopsy report, except for this large
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  Speaker 1: organ body uh, in the liver, and that section was
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  Speaker 1: taken spun down and this is what they extracted. We've
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  Speaker 1: got all these other drug groups that were scanned for
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  Speaker 1: and the only thing that was found was this one drug. Uh.
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  Speaker 1: The other part of this is that this drug can
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  Speaker 1: be used also in context of what's referred to as
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: a backbone drug, and that means our component to a
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  Speaker 1: bigger molecule. Let me break that down for you. So
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  Speaker 1: you've got this this other element that's found in his
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  Speaker 1: system that's used many times as a binder for other
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  Speaker 1: complex molecules. I don't know what else this kid had
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  Speaker 1: on board, but as dr more only so put the
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  Speaker 1: absence of methamphetamine, it would have also been captured in
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  Speaker 1: the liver um. You know, I'm I'm at a loss
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  Speaker 1: at this point, Tom that are you trying to tell
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  Speaker 1: me you can't piece together anything? Uh? I mean, just
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  Speaker 1: be honest, I don't mind, Just tell me. Okay, I'm
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  Speaker 1: gonna take that silence as a no. No. What I
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  Speaker 1: was gonna say is that I think that this child
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  Speaker 1: potentially died accidentally. She didn't know what to do with
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  Speaker 1: the child. She drove to this location and potentially discarded
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  Speaker 1: the child over the side of the bridge. Okay, let
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  Speaker 1: me let me just pick that apart for one moment.
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  Speaker 1: Accidentally died. So you're telling me that's like a drunk
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: driver crashing and killing a couple of people, going it
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  Speaker 1: was an accident. No, it's not. So they home by accident,
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  Speaker 1: nobody paid them, paid for them, and brought them in
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  Speaker 1: the home knowing there were several children in the home.
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  Speaker 1: Then that adult, because kid can't go in and buy drugs.
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  Speaker 1: Then the adult lead at best, leaves the drugs unattended
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  Speaker 1: at a level and a location where a child can
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  Speaker 1: get it. Then is not supervising the child, which is
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  Speaker 1: a conscious decision, and the child gets into the drugs.
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  Speaker 1: Then the child ingests the drugs, Then the child dies.
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  Speaker 1: Without being taken to the hospital because that adult either
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  Speaker 1: is negligent or doesn't want to get in trouble by
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: taking the child to the hospital. And then that adult
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  Speaker 1: throws the child off a bridge into a culvert and
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  Speaker 1: lies about it for months while we're racking our brains.
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  Speaker 1: People are out searching, and the father, the bio dad,
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  Speaker 1: is left twisting in the wind, wondering if the child
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  Speaker 1: is alive somewhere calling out for daddy. I Nancy. Just
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: in the late hours last night, Whichita Police released the
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: recording of the nine one one call Emily Glassmaid back
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: in February to report that Lucas Fernandez was missing. Listen
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: to this acting job. What's the location of an emergency?
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  Speaker 1: My son? Where's your son around? He's gone? When did
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: he do so? Are you not going to It wasn't long,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: so it wasn't line following. Fine, ma'am, ma'am. How old
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: is your son? He's fine? Years years old. Did he
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  Speaker 1: walk off? No? I don't know. Oh yeah, what are
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: you at? I don't know what to do. Did you
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• 22:44
  Speaker 1: five year old boy is dead, his body found and
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: he washed out covert in rural area, obscure out in
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: the element so long his brown hair bleached white. What
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: happened to Luca Hernandez some answers, some suggesting the little
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: boy died of a quote accidental use of drugs. That's
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: their words, not mine. Having illegal drugs laying around your home,
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  Speaker 1: it's no accident. I'm not sure that was the cause
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: of death. But sadly, we will never know really what
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: happened to little Lucas. I mean, is that what I've
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: got to accept, Dr William Moroney, that I'll never know
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  Speaker 1: what happened to him. You'll never know because there wasn't
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: enough body left in the remains to do more of
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  Speaker 1: an investigation. You know that Lucas this liver contained a
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: drug chemical, a stimulant of possible hallucinogen that we don't
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: have in five year olds, but you won't actually know
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: what happened to the body. So because of the lack
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: of soft tissue, I will never know if Emily Glass
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: strangled him, hit him on the head, asphyxiated him, smothered
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: him with a pillow, if he was acting out after
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: his unintentional use of her drugs. WILL never know really
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: what happened to him. I guess she gets a gold
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: star for hiding the body so long. Determination of a
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  Speaker 1: true cause of death is impossible, imman City. I disagree.
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  Speaker 1: We're not going to know the cause of death. Somebody
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: knows what happened to this child. We know that there
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: may have been someone else present in court. I do
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: not see individuals come in that have done bass salts
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: by themselves with nobody else there. I believe someone else
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: does know what happened, and they need to come forward.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: I just think of that little body lying out there
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: in the elements, day after day after day. Also, we
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: have obtained the autopsy report of Emily Glass. But listen
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: to what Lucas's father said that he is the one
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: that calls tell me exactly what happened. Oh, it's the
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: first time I've been home and like three weeks. Uh
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: my fiance who has been staying here m hm, and
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: I had nowhere else to go tonight, so I asked her, Hey,
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: are you awakes, et cetera, and she didn't answer. So
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: I came home and it's so bad. It's so bad.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: I saw my rifle at her feet. Yes, I think so,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: I think. So her brain is laying on the carpet
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: and her head is split wide open. Where is where's
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: the gun at now it's at her feet. Okay. And
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: you said it's a rifle, yes, ma'am. Okay, have you
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: seen any other weapons? No, man, I have a shotgun
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: in the closet. If it's still there, I haven't even checked.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: But there was only my rifle that it looks like
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: she got out of the case. Okay. And is anyone
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: else injured? The you know of he is the one
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: that had been texting her and allowing her to live
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: in his home. He was not living there himself. He's
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: the one that calls nine one one. Take a listen
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: to what Lucas's dad tells us. The lights were on
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: and the TV was on, and it looked like, you know,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: somebody was there. And I go to the bedroom and
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: she's not fair. So I go out to the garage
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: and check to see if a car was there. I
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: thought maybe she wasn't staying there, maybe had left for something.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: And her car was there in the garage. So I
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: went back inside and did a more thorough room by
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: room search, and when I found her in the backroom.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: When you found her, was she dressed? Was she lying
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: in bed? What was the condition of her body? She
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: was dressed, it looked like she had Pajamason at first?
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: Did you believe she was just asleep? No? I did not.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: I thought it was a dream. I wasn't sure what
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: was happening at first, joining me. Dr William Maroney, Medical
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: examiner Kenya Johnson, Joseph Scott, Morgan, Karen Stark, and Ashley Wilcott.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Dr Maroney, why are they so sure that this is
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: a suicide, Well, there's three reasons. Number one, became with
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: a suicide. Note number two, she was probably extremely distressed
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: with whatever was going on. That's more of a psychosocial
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: intervention category thing. It's not uh scientific to the forensics,
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: but it's very clear that this is a gun shot
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: more to the center of the forehead, and the a
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: R fifteen hunting rifle is found between the legs. It
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: is a contact wound. A contact wound means the tip
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: of the barrel is right on the skull. It's right
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: on the skin, and we know that because of the
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: abrasions and the blood marks and the burns and the soot,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: the gunpowder is in the skin. So it's very likely
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: that this was right there. And the other thing is
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: the tremendous amount of trauma. The bullet fired from an
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: A R fifteen releases a tremendous amount of energy, and
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: there's an entrance wound, but there's so much energy in
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: this the damage to the skull does not allow you
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: to reconstruct an exit wound. If you're really going to
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: shoot yourself, this will take you out. And if somebody
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: else is trying to shoot you, there would be defensive wounds,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: and I don't see any kind of defensive wounds available.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: The note, the psychosocial interventions around it, and the actual method.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: The cause of death is gunshot wound to the head.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: The manner of death is suicide. Without more physical evidence
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: and an investigation, I would have to go with the
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: preliminary report from the Regional Forensic Science Center. It sounds
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: very legitimate to Justice Scott Morgan. I hear Dr Maroney.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: I agree with Dr Maroney, but I still, as you know,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: like to test the evidence. Isn't it true that another
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: person could kill her with a contact wound and lay
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: the same burn or searing marks. It's it's true that
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: it could happen within the realm of possibility. Is it
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: like Lee? No, not in this particular case. Uh, it
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: would It would require it would require for her to
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: be so incapacitated. Uh. You know, as Dr Maroney pointed out,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: this is a co yeah, potentially asleep. Uh. And again
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: we don't have enough information at this point in time
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: relative to the attitude of her body at the time
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: in which she was shot. What we do know is
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: that she was found with the weapon between her legs
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: on the floor. Uh. And Uh, the fact that it
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: is in fact a contact wound. Uh if she didn't
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: have an awareness, perhaps if she was subdued by drugs
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: in some way, Uh, maybe she wouldn't have had an awareness.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: But the only drugs that she has on board that
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: we can tell so far ethanol and active component in marijuana,
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: which is THHC. So I don't know that that would
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: have incapacitated her to that point. Um. In in my estimation,
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: this sounds consistent with a suicide. Dr William Roney renowed
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: Medical Examiner. Since another person could have shot her and
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: left those burn marks surrounding the barrel mark on her skin.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: What convinces you the most that this is in fact
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: a suicide that Emily Glass killed herself because her friends
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: have come on and absolutely denied she did. As a
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: matter of fact. Take a listen to her friends. They
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: insist she did not kill herself. Someone else did the deed.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: Do you believe she shot herself? Oh, ma'am, I've got
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: and I showed the police. They took my phone to night.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Jonathan Hernandez actually said last Winster Thursday night, if he's
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: seen Emily. He didn't know that he could keep himself
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: from killing her because she asked, Jonathan, will you meet
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: up with me? No tape recorders, no cameras, no videos,
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: no nothing, no sound. I want to talk to you
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: about everything that happened at night. And Jonathan told do
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: a friend. I can't made up with her because if
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: I do, I'm not sure I won't kill her. Are
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: you suggesting that the father of Lucas Hernandez shot Emily
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Glass the stepmother. Yes, I am so. Dr William Moroney,
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: Let's deal with it here and now the present world.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Could this have taken place at the hand of another, Well, yes,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: but it's a probability high and I say no. And
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: the reason why I say no, I leaned towards suicide.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: I've been to you know, a decade of these kinds
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: of suicide scenarios. There's a note and there's no investigation
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: and challenge of the suicide note. Now, what percentage of
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: suicides actually take time to do a note? Well, it's
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: always like right around fifty or sixty percent, not out
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: a hundred percent of suicide notes. But if people take
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: time to write notes, um, they're usually investigated that that
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: is that person's handwriting, and there's no challenge or question
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: in the pathological diagnosis. The evidence president with a suicide
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: note is clearly one of the contributing factors that we
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: used to say this is a suicide. The note is appropriate.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: There are actually three suicide nedes. Listen to what Lucas's
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: dad Jonathan tells us about the discovery of those suicide notes.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Where were they? I honestly don't know. They didn't They
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: didn't tell me where they were, and as far as
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: two of them, they haven't told me what's in them.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Except for the third one they did tell me was
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: rolled up and stuck inside of her engagement ring and
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: it said, Tom, give our daughter the ring when she
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: gets older. Dr William Moroney. So you're observation regarding the
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: suicide notes is correct. I don't think anybody's stage that
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: is specifically the one rolled up and stuck in the
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: engagement ring, and the fact that there's more than one
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: suicide note means there was great deliberation. She may have
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: not gotten it right in one note, so she wanted
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: to start over and do another note. So this whole
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: thing is predicated on somebody plans and stages suicide. You
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: take the time to write all those notes. You take
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: the time to prepare a rifle if it's the only
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: thing available, and other guns removed from the house, the
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: opportunity to say, the forensic evidence, the note, the psychosocial
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: interventions being negative. All those things contribute to me continuing
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: to support suicide, especially because there's multiple versions. She took
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: the time to construct a pathway leading through suicide notes
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: to finally permitting suicide. To Karen Stark, New York Psychologists
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: joining us from Manhattan. Karen Stark, the suicide note one
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: of the three, the one rolled up and stuck in
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: the engagement ring that Jonathan Hernandez had given her. Man
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: that was powerful to roll it up and put it
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: in the engagement ring. What's that about? Well, and that's
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: what makes it such a convincing fact here, Nancy, is
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: that it's very symbolic, you know, It's it's like her
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: own code saying you know this is this is directed
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: to you exclusively. And although it happens to be true
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: that women often would not use such a violent means
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: to kill themselves, in this case it is very much
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: a sentimental, expressive way of communicating. She wanted someone, ostensibly
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: the person who gave you that ring, to know that
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: this is a message for them, and so it does
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: seem as though this is a suicide. I guess what's
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: hanging me up on this is the use of an
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: a R fifteen, a semi automatic long un Well, you
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: want to know. I think here, here's why that's not
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: a big deal. This is Kansas, Okay. An air fifteen
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: in Boston is a foreign item. This is Kansas, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: Girls learn how to shoot rifles, and a R fifteens
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: are found in the back of trucks. Girls go deer hunting.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: That's not my problem. Dr William Moroney, And I don't
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: know of Kansas. You know, I'm not from Kansas. But
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: I don't know if they would appreciate you singling them
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: out as being the source of girls love guns. But
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: you know a lot of women know how to shoot
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: a gun. What I'm saying is, I'm not stunned by
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: a woman shooting a gun. Hello, I'm stunned because using
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: a long gun to shoot yourself might be a little
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: bit more difficult than a handgun. I think, um, just
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: because of the rural factor and the high percent of
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: enterople that in the R fifteen is not a foreign
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: object in Kansas. I don't think. That's not even my point.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: My point is not she's not familiar with a gun.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: My point is the physicality of holding a rifle on
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: yourself and pulling the trigger. Nancy, I think it's just
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: that this is Ashley. Can I just add, I think
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: it's accessibility, right, Like, allegedly they've gotten all the guns
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: out of the house. Clearly they hadn't. So she decided
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: she really wanted to kill herself with a gun, and
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: this was the only gun she had access to. I
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: think she'd choose it. Okay. I think this is my
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: problem because I obviously I'm not making myself clear. This
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: is like me going, oh, I want to kill myself.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: Let me go light the cannon in the garage and
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: see if I can shoot myself in the head. It's
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: physically impossible. All okay. Now, John David my Son has
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: told me it doesn't help him understand any better if
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: I speak slowly or loudly, So let me stop that
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: right now, Dr Maroney. What I'm saying is, how do
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: you hold arrival on yourself and shoot yourself dead in
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: the middle of the head. How does that happen? You?
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: You reverse how you hold and you're not firing it
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: with your trigger finger, your index finger finger number two.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: You're more than likely firing it with your thumb. And
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: you reverse how you pull it. You're not shooting it
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: like you shoot it any other way. And and one
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: of the reasons why you know, she's found on the
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: floor and the rifles there. You secure the weapon on
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: the floor. Now, if we're talking about Phil Specter or
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: Hollywood or anything else, women and guns really don't mix
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: a lot. But in and oh are you back on
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: women and guns? And stop it with Kansas. Yeah, it's
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: not Kansas. Women all those Statistically it's low commit suicide
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: with guns across the country, often not as much as men,
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: but they do it. And it's not just in Kansas.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: But you know what, go ahead, with your Kansas issue.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: Dr Maroney, that's something for Karen Starker psychologists to deal with. Um. Okay,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying is she secured it on
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: the floor and shot herself, and you think that's entirely possible.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Just got Morgan, what about an a R fifteen? Is
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: there a collapsible barrel that could have made it shorter?
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: Overall length of a R fifteen is only about thirty
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: nine inches, Nancy, it's not like we're talking. You know
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: about a Kentucky long rifle from the Revolutionary War, right,
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: that's over three feet thirty nine inches. Yeah, it's easily
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: It's easily accomplished when you think about the average length
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: of a person. Okay, you know what, am I the
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: only one not saying that that sees a problem with this?
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Kenya Johnson? I mean, I guess you're gonna jump in
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: with those two and say you don't see a problem.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: But I'm not arguing that this is not a suicide.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying I find it hard to understand the
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: physicality of her killing herself with a long gun. If
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: you find a problem, then other people find a problem,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: and so we've got to comb through all the surrounding
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: salensic evidence to see if there's any indication that someone
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: else may have been involved. In the last hour's re
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: received the autopsy reports on not only five year old Lucas,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: but his so called step mother, Emily Glass as well.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: According to the reports, little Lucas's body was full of
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: a drug called finnel ethel amine UH stimulant that can
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: be purchased and in such an amount. I cannot discern
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: if that was the cause of death or not. Because
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: the body had lined in a washed out culvert for
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: so long, little soft tissue was left to determine if
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: he had been smothered, asphyxiated, shots stabbed, beaten. But I
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: know this much. When you don't know a horse, look
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: at the track record. Ashley Wilcott, take a listen to
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: what has been said regarding bruises all over this child's body.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: You know, I feel helpless. She was sent photos of
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: Lucas last year and saw multiple bruises on his face
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: and neck, so she says she called protective services. All
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: the stories I've been hearing from about him possibly being abused.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: She only got more concerned after the father and son
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: came to New Mexico for work. She says she and
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: another relative saw more signs that the child was hurt,
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: and so another report was filed in that state. They
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: investigated and had a frantic interview and all that kind
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: of stuff and sent them. I guess the police didn't
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: think they're gonna have evidence. When I first found out
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: he was missing, I um was suspicious and then worried.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: Not only that. Listen to what Emily Glass herself tells
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: k w C H. Devon Fastbender why little Lucas has
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: always covered in bruises. There's obviously a lot of rumors
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: going on, a lot of things that people are saying
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: about your stepson Lucas. Just curious if there's anything that
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: you want to say about that situation. Yeah, Um, in
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: the past, you know, you know you a boy. Um,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: I'm playing with over brother day, good cousin, and he
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: is prove it. He has had some alls, Um follows,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: either cookie dinner or at the park. Um. I'm sorry,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: it's really hard on you. No, you're fine. Take your time.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: You know. I may not have given birth to him,
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: but he might be before today. I take care of
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: him every day, So how can I believe anything she says.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: Listen to what she tells Devin when asked if she
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: has any idea where Lucas may be. Do you have
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: any idea where Lucas might be? At this point? Guys,
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: I went did h um? But if anyone does know,
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: please say something, because me and dad are very sick,
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: you know what. I thank keep thinking what could have happened?
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: You know? And and I keep thinking back to these
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: two people, um that we're outside of my house a
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: few days priors, um, the black man and white woman.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: Do you know them? No? They were standing out bite um,
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: talking fooks and stay are its actually pretty early morning?
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: So I went out there and be like, hey, everything, okay,
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: do you need to come inside? You know? Are you stranded?
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: And they were just like no and look at me
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: like I offended him with company, um, and I so okay,
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I mean, let's called outside. So I didn't
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: know if you you don't needed to come into, you know,
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: being nice um. And they took around for maybe ten
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: fifty more minutes. Actually they've got a picture, and I'm
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: walking away because I wanted to amenduted to their dad,
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: who to be like, hey, you know what's going on?
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: At home on Did you end up sending that picture
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: to Jonathan? Yes, I did. I did he mean boys? Hey,
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: he certainly needed brother. He's so loose, so Ashley willcot.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: The child has been beaten in the past, and now
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: I'm supposed to accept that he all on his own,
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: oh date, on her drugs. I don't accept that, because
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: that's the fact of the matter. This little boy, this
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: innocent little boy, was a victim of abuse, physical abuse,
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: drugs in his system, which had a minimum is neglect
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: because she didn't pay attention to what he was doing.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: But I don't believe it was neglect. I believe that
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: this boy has been consistently abused by Emily Glass, and
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: that in and of itself as a crime. But then
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: add to that the other things you've already diligently pointed out,
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: which is she knew where he was, she didn't tell anyone,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: she lied about it. It is a whole host of
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: issues that point to guilty. In my mind, we're talking
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: about prior abuse on the little boy, five year old.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: Lucas and Child Protective Services knew about it, the aunt
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: had told them about it. Nothing was done. The dad,
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: Jonathan Hernandez apparently in love with Emily Glass, did not
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: register his child was covered in bruises, and also he
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: was away so much of the time working trying to
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: support the family us. I myself have never witnessed her
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: abuse him, hit him, be ugly towards him. And it
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: kind of goes back to you know, you're trusting this
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: other person to take care of your most prized possession,
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: and you're romantically involved with them, and you don't think
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: that they would ever do that, especially if you've never
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: witnessed it. But in hindsight, I mean, I can see
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: the bruises and stuff whenever I was not home, could
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: have been her abusing him. At the end of the day,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Dr William Moroney, there's evidence that this child has been mistreated,
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: not fed, beaten in the past. Then he ends up
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: dead in a wash out, covered, his remains deteriorated significantly.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: Based on what I know, there's no doubt in my
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: mind there was foul play and that CPS knew about it.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: Dr Moroney, How often does this happen? It happens more
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: than we'd like in America. The CPS case burden, it's tremendous.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: The parents, either individual or as uh, couplets are not
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: dealing with stress. They just don't make parents that can
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: work with the troubles of raising a normal child. People
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: are using drugs, people are abusing kids, which you always
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: have to remember. Here is this little boy did not
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: wander away. He was drugged and the advanced decomposed body
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: was found under a pile of debris. No child should
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: end this way and CPS is the first line of
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: defense to ferret out these kind of parents, to get
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: them the help, and to separate the children from these
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: kinds of parents so no child will ever be found
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: under a pile of debris. Again, we believe the case
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: of Lucas Hernandez and stepmother Emily Glass is now closed.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: Nancy Grace crime story signing off, goodbye friend. There's a
• 49:43
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