Latest / Love Conquers Fear / #45: AI for Healthcare: Expanding Access, Improving Outcomes & Increasing Care — Ganesh Padmanabhan

Transcript

#45: AI for Healthcare: Expanding Access, Improving Outcomes & Increasing Care — Ganesh Padmanabhan · Love Conquers Fear

0:00
You could do anything right now, but then you have this amazing
0:03
capability called AI and you know there's one part of
0:06
civilization or the universe is suffering.
0:08
You now have the tools. You're almost like God with AI
0:11
in your hands. You can go solve that.
0:13
So you embark on that thing, a very capitalist journey to go do
0:16
that. But then that leads to a path of
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love to go solve the larger problem.
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Abundance mindset is ingrained in that action that you're
0:23
taking there too. There's only love.
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Everything else just blends and melts away.
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If you really take that framing of saying this is 1 one giant
0:30
thread, call it soul, call it consciousness, whatever, it's a
0:33
one giant thread that pulls it all together.
0:38
Welcome back everybody to the Love Conquers Fear podcast.
0:42
I am reading a new book, at least new to me, called Liquid
0:47
Light. It's by William Barnard and I
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think it was recommended to me at a Judaism and Psychedelics
0:54
dinner. It's all about ayahuasca, which
0:57
I've never done ayahuasca before.
1:00
Someone was joking with me a few years ago when I was taking a
1:04
trip to Costa Rica. They're like, oh, are you going
1:06
there and you're going to do ayahuasca?
1:08
I didn't even know what they were talking about, to be honest
1:10
at that time. But one of the chapters in that
1:14
book that really struck me was Chapter 2, which is about during
1:19
his initial, I think it was like his second or third ayahuasca
1:23
experience. He ascended to meet what the
1:31
form of God was in his journey and also had this experience
1:37
with this council of elders. And one of the things that it
1:40
made me realize, and I've had this theory for a while, is it
1:46
it's not necessarily about the particular psychedelic you use.
1:51
It's more about your own soul and what you learn from your
1:55
soul in that type of experience. You know, I've talked about John
1:59
Mackey and the whole story, which is his book, which is the
2:04
tell all on Whole Foods. He was on episode 30 of the
2:08
podcast and for him, he starts out that book with chapter 1
2:13
about his psychedelic journey on LSD.
2:16
That got him over the fear of launching Whole Foods.
2:21
After he dropped out of UT Austin, where where I went to
2:24
school, and you'll meet my guest in a second, also went to
2:27
school. He saw that everything was
2:29
rooted in unity and love and that he had that experience with
2:34
consciousness. I also continue to be very
2:37
excited about Michael Pollan's new book coming out, which is
2:41
called A World Appears. He prior to this wrote How to
2:45
Change Your Mind which is an amazing book and amazing
2:48
documentary on psychedelics on Netflix.
2:51
So if you have any curiosity, starting with that documentary
2:55
is a great place to start. But this book is a deep
2:59
exploration of consciousness and the different theories of
3:04
consciousness from panpsychism, which means that consciousness
3:07
is in everything to some extent even a rock, to consciousness
3:13
being this fundamental property of the universe and evidence of
3:17
that. To of course, the theories that
3:21
consciousness is just somehow this magical property that arose
3:25
from our brains after lots and lots of evolutionary time and
3:30
natural selection. You know, that that for whatever
3:35
reason, consciousness manifested, which I find
3:39
actually the hardest to believe. And we still grapple with what
3:44
is the nature of consciousness. And I think what's really
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exciting in this AI acceleration is we're going to decode more
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and more about what our actual reality is.
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And we'll get into that today as well.
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So I really am proud to welcome Ganesh on to the podcast.
4:02
Yeah. Great to be here.
4:03
Thanks. Thanks a lot for inviting me.
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And it's, it's such an honour to be here.
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I mean, I'm a huge fan of the show.
4:10
Well, thank you. You have amazing guests and the
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wide-ranging variety of topics that you guys touch on, it's
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just incredible. So I'm super honored to be here.
4:18
Well, thank you so much. Yeah, you and I last saw each
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other. We're both keynoting UT Austin
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McCombs event, which is the Business School.
4:27
Yes. And we were both, I think,
4:30
humbled by the fact that Brené Brown was also their keynote it.
4:33
Was like, it was amazing. And I think you know, and Brene
4:35
talked about her pickleball experience and all of that stuff
4:39
too. So it was it was great.
4:40
It was great to see you there too.
4:42
And. Yeah, Yeah.
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That was a really special event. So let's talk about your your
4:46
current company because it's really exciting and just how you
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got to this point of starting this company and, and what your
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biggest aspirations are with it. Yeah, no.
4:57
So thank you again. Thanks for having me here.
5:00
So my. It's an honor.
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I'm CEO of a company called Autonomize AI and, and we're
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four years old as a company, but I'd like to always think of this
5:07
as like the, the origin journey for this started 46 years ago
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when I was born, right? So in some, in some way or
5:14
fashion, because most of what we do and what we've actually
5:17
experienced shape what we do eventually in life.
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So, you know, the company we, this is in the middle of COVID,
5:24
so 2020 and I had just working with another early stage
5:29
company, just exited that in mid 2020.
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And you know, for a technologist, I'm an engineer
5:36
and a technologist at heart and you like to build things like to
5:39
solve problems and COVID-19 showed how fragile our
5:44
infrastructure was for healthcare and, and public
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health in general. So that was the spark to say,
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look, if you can do something, you know, meaningful, like what
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do I tell my grandkids that I help people shop more and search
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more with AI, Can I do something more meaningful in healthcare?
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And the other thing that was an impactful thing during COVID-19,
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had a lot of friends in, in healthcare.
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They were frontline workers and stuff.
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Nobody goes into healthcare in their right mind, you know, to,
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to make money or anything. They go in there because they
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want to help people. They're drawn to the cause and
6:19
they want to be a part of the solution to the problem of human
6:22
health. Yet they probably have the
6:25
shittiest job in the universe today.
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They listen to sick people all the day.
6:29
The people are complaining to them all the time.
6:30
They work odd hours. They make software engineers
6:33
probably at open AI, probably pay, get paid a lot more than
6:36
doctors and, and, and nurses. Yet they show up everyday and
6:40
they're doing that. And during COVID-19, it was very
6:43
evident that, well, they were stretched thin.
6:45
They were trying their best. They were putting their families
6:48
and their lives at risk to actually do things.
6:51
So the idea around autonomize was around, look, look, if you
6:54
can give them a Jarvis suit so they can turn from being Tony
6:57
Stark to Iron Man and serve better and make an impact to
7:01
human health, that would be the worthwhile, you know, journey
7:04
for us to get embarked on. So that's how we started.
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So Fast forward four years now, we had a great year last year.
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We had like 112 employees now around the world.
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And by the time this episode comes out, we'll probably be
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1/25. 1:30 We have teams in here in Austin, all over the US, some
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of the commercial teams, Canada and in India as well.
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We have a big team in India. So, and, and we're work with
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several of the really large healthcare enterprises helping
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them move a little bit closer to the view to the world where
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healthcare doesn't have to be so operationally taxing healthcare,
7:42
you know, how do you remove the shackles and remove the burden
7:44
for the healthcare knowledge workers to do their best work,
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right, right. So.
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What's been your proudest moment so far with with some customer
7:54
impact where you where the light bulb went on?
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I may remember these these moments really clearly with
8:00
bizarre voice and dated out world and core metrics where,
8:03
you know, there was a major light bulb where it was like, oh
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wow, we're really going to help a lot of people with this.
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You know, there's a, there's a, there's a few different moments,
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you know, like I remember when we started off 4 years ago, we,
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we started in life sciences. So clinical trials was this
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thing. And one of the impactful thing
8:20
that happened was, you know, someone I knew a good friend of
8:24
mine, she passed away to stage 4 breast cancer.
8:27
And she was, you know, and she struggled with it a while, but
8:30
when she was actually initially diagnosed, Merck was running a
8:34
clinical trial that could have, would have like, but could have
8:37
saved her life because, you know, it would have actually it
8:39
was immunotherapy. It was the first time Keytruda
8:41
was coming out. But and she was eligible for
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that trial based on her protein gene expressions.
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But that fact was buddied in a page #695 of a 5000 page medical
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report, right? So just being you know, that was
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one of the original spark moments where we like well, our
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first customer was a company in Austin called Eligo Health
9:01
Research. We helped them run their one of
9:03
the first oncology trials to recruit patients for a clinical
9:07
trial, go through 10s of thousands of people to identify
9:10
the 200 to 300 folks based on their medical records and
9:14
history who will be best eligible to a get that
9:18
experimental care given to them because they need it at that
9:20
time. But also helped launch that
9:22
particular drug or that particular procedure they were
9:24
trying to do. So that was 1 moment where we
9:26
actually like when we unlock them, we compress that 9 1/2
9:29
month cycle that they had with 200 people reviewing charts to
9:33
two months or less, you know, to get, you know, get to 1st
9:37
patient in for the trial. That was really special.
9:41
We work a lot with health plans and large health providers.
9:44
And you know, one of the things that we, we, we, we have this
9:47
vision of an agent take health enterprise and the idea that
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it's a hybrid organization. You have humans and, you know,
9:54
knowledge workers and stuff doing their stuff.
9:57
But then all of the mundane administratively taxing part is
10:00
done by AI agents and they have a way and a platform to transfer
10:04
context and so forth. So in healthcare in general, you
10:08
know, a lot of the work flows you see are very siloed.
10:12
So a health plan receiving a prior authorization request for
10:16
a PET scan has information about that patient having a confirmed
10:20
cancer diagnosis and they're requesting a PET scan.
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Well, we work with this customer and they we were able to help
10:26
them turn this around, say rather than just, you know,
10:29
treating that as a request and a transaction.
10:32
Well, imagine that experience they were able to deliver this
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you an AI agent looks at that particular charts understands
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this patient changes the risk profile of their population so
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updates and sends a message to the risk team.
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It looks at that you know hey this patient is just confirmed
10:48
cancer diagnosis. You can predict the pathway for
10:51
the next six to seven months. Why don't I go and look at all
10:55
the provider network who has the best treatment for this patient,
10:58
map out that whole thing. And that afternoon send a
11:01
message to the, the, the, the oncology care navigator who
11:05
calls the member and say, instead of saying, hey, your
11:07
request is approved or not saying, I know you're going
11:10
through a tough time, right? But let me, we're here to help
11:14
you. Here's the next six or seven
11:16
months of journey. Here's the providers you need to
11:18
do. I've already taken care of your
11:19
appointments. Here's how much you'll have to
11:21
pay at the end of it. Here's how we're going to work
11:23
with you on this particular day. And that entire experience
11:26
changed for that one target population that we ran this
11:28
study for. So I think that's.
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That's awesome. That's the opportunity.
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That's when we know that, OK, there is so much impact we can
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make. And you know, I have other
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stories too, but you know, I know we have other topics to
11:39
talk through and stuff too, right?
11:41
So. Yeah.
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How, how did you, you know, kind of going back to your childhood.
11:45
Why do you why do you think this is this is your calling?
11:49
And I'll say in this lifetime, because I very much believe in
11:52
reincarnation. Me too, actually, you know, So
11:56
that's a good question. You know, look, all you, you, I
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never thought I'll be in healthcare, to be honest, right.
12:03
I mean, it's just like I'm was a technologist.
12:05
I love building things. I grew up in a very, you know,
12:10
conservative family. You know, we, we, we had, you
12:13
know, we, we didn't have a lot of means.
12:15
We had, we were OK. We were not like, but we grew up
12:17
poor and, but we, we, it was a very communal environment.
12:22
Grew up. I, you know, it's like the, so
12:24
we, we grew, I grew up in this place called Palakkad in Kerala,
12:27
in India, southern India. And the place is stuck.
12:30
And it was like this old Vedic scholar, Vedanta scholar
12:34
settlements that would actually serve with the temple and stuff
12:37
like that. It was a very communal line
12:39
houses, everybody talk, everybody knows about what's
12:42
happening around this whole thing.
12:44
So there was an environment that, you know, that I grew up
12:46
in which I honestly didn't appreciate when I was there.
12:49
When you look back after a while, I was like, oh man, that
12:51
shaped the way I think about things like and, you know,
12:55
thinking about healthcare today and healthcare then.
12:57
I remember like you, when you go to a primary care physician,
13:00
they knew your family, they knew your entire history.
13:03
They knew what diseases your grandfather had and how you're
13:06
impacted. It was so personal to go in and
13:09
you go walk up when you're sick and stuff like that.
13:11
And, and, and then there is everybody else playing roles as
13:15
caregivers. The neighbor who actually has
13:17
studied some, you know, Eastern medicine will come in and say,
13:19
yeah, you have a tummy ache. Here's the thing that you do.
13:22
All of that was part of a very, you know, very fluid system that
13:27
took care of you, right. And then, you know, almost 20
13:30
years ago, it came to the United States and we are one of the
13:33
most advanced technologies in the in the industry.
13:36
We have the supremacy on every one of those things, but
13:40
healthcare, you think about like all the things we could do and
13:44
we probably have the most obese people in the world.
13:46
We don't have the right structures in place to go take
13:49
care of that. It was very, you know, 1, You
13:52
know, with a country like India, you know, now India is becoming
13:55
pretty affluent and stuff too. The middle class has grown up.
13:58
The largest country in the world, now it is 1.46 billion
14:02
people I think. That's right, 1 1/2 billion
14:05
people. So and without any of that
14:09
resources they have today and the progress they've had today,
14:11
if they can figure that out 30 years ago, 40 years ago.
14:15
For us, it's about like trying to apply the right, you know,
14:19
incentives, the right technology, the right, you know,
14:21
getting the right builders with the right mindset to come and
14:23
change it. We can change the system in U.S.
14:26
healthcare. So it was one of those.
14:28
So I, I think all of that had shaping to it, but I think a lot
14:31
of things that you learn in terms of, you know, look, do
14:35
something that is worthwhile than just doing, you know, it's,
14:39
it's the, and I know you, we were talking about you had
14:42
another previous guest, Manoj. Yeah, Manoj Saxena.
14:46
Manoj used to say is to work for Manoj and, and it's one of his
14:49
last companies. And he used to say like, do
14:52
good, have fun, make money, but in that order, right.
14:56
And I very much believe that. And what, what better
14:59
opportunity do you get as a technologist to focus all that
15:02
energy and experience to solve the most profound problem, which
15:06
is improve the human condition, right?
15:08
Physical condition today, but eventually that'll permeate into
15:11
other parts as we grow into abundance against the world,
15:14
right? So that's one of the shaping
15:17
stories, if you will. You know, it's amazing what's
15:19
what's happening in Austin. I, I joined the Advisory Board
15:23
for the Dell Medical school for the new teaching hospital that
15:27
they're building largest project in, in UTS history, which is
15:31
kind of incredible. Like it's a staggering, you
15:34
know, scale of a project. And one of the things that the
15:38
Dean has talked about quite a bit, Claudia, who's become a
15:44
good friend, is that Michael Dell, which, you know, it's
15:47
Adele Medical School, one of the biggest donors alongside his
15:51
wife Susan has told her is make sure this isn't going to be
15:58
obsolete, you know, the year after you build it.
16:01
It's interesting. Yeah.
16:02
And I'm just I'm just curious how you how you think about that
16:05
because you're on the front lines of seeing the impact of AI
16:09
in healthcare and really helping galvanized that.
16:12
But you know, we're in this exponential of exponential
16:16
curves and, and one of the reasons I, I want to have you
16:20
on, besides the fact I love your heart, is really to dive deep
16:24
on, on that. Like how is this AI moment going
16:27
to really impact healthcare? No, you know, it's, it's, it's a
16:31
great question. And by the way, I'm so excited.
16:33
I'm actually guest lecturing in one of the Mccune's classes that
16:37
there is a group in this in, in the MD's program for the Dell
16:44
medical school, their dual degree MD MB AS.
16:48
So I'm actually having a conversation with them about
16:50
like the how AI and the future of healthcare.
16:53
I'm teaching a class this summer of the spring and I'm so
16:57
fascinated because I think look what you did, the skills that
17:00
you need as a clinician are going to fundamentally evolve,
17:04
right? I mean, think about it, you
17:05
were, you know, if if you had to, like most of the skills
17:09
you'll learn in the medical school is around how do I digest
17:12
information from multiple clinical studies?
17:15
How do I actually form intuitions on what works and
17:18
what not? You know, how do I form, how do
17:20
I actually, you know, understand procedures and stuff like that.
17:24
In the age of AI, you don't have to memorize or remember any of
17:27
that. So what can they really do
17:29
right? What can you unlock for them?
17:31
One part is like, I always fundamentally believe that
17:34
Healthcare is more about the care part, the the human part of
17:38
it then things. So this can really unlock if you
17:41
are a great interpersonal clinician who understands it
17:45
gives comfort. There's a lot of studies also
17:47
being done that like, you know, people with place boost, but
17:50
then having a great experience with a physician feel better.
17:52
They're, you know, heal better and all of that stuff.
17:55
So I think there is an opportunity where there's a
17:58
reframing that needs to happen. And I'll tell you the practical
18:00
realities as well today when we deploy, you know, AI and several
18:05
really large enterprises in the United States and and abroad too
18:08
now. And there is still a little bit
18:12
of fear and certainty. There's a little doubt from the
18:15
clinical folks mostly. I mean, it started with folks
18:19
like getting really worried about saying, how is this going
18:21
to change my workflow and what do I do?
18:23
Do I will I still be valued the way I am and stuff the ones you
18:27
get that trust unlocked with them.
18:29
You see this tremendous a sense of gratitude for them to say, Oh
18:33
my God, I now don't have to do pajama time anymore of spending
18:38
four hours writing up my 10 visits that I had this year
18:41
after my kids go to Brad, right? So that's one immediate impact.
18:45
But then the other thing is like, wow, earlier I used to
18:48
never have the time to go research, you know, what is the
18:52
best experimental care option for this patient?
18:55
Now I do, I can ask a question in open evidence or chat GPD for
18:59
that matter. And, and, and I can have a, an
19:02
answer that I wouldn't, I couldn't have done it.
19:04
I couldn't even have thought of doing it before, right?
19:07
So how do you know? So I'm giving that frontline
19:10
workers view of things. But overall, right, like think
19:13
about the chat GPD for health just launched and Tropic is
19:16
doing some work on that front too.
19:18
You're giving tools to even the patients to decipher,
19:21
disseminate. There is still hallucinations,
19:24
all of the technical problems you got to solve.
19:26
It'll eventually work itself out.
19:27
But you're now giving rise to an opportunity for a very informed
19:31
patient, right? That was hard to be informed as
19:34
a patient before. Well, what that does is actually
19:36
put the pressure on the system. Now you can actually go look and
19:39
you're you're walking to a doctor's office.
19:42
I'm going to have my 20 questions ready for you, Mr.
19:44
Doctor. So you have to now step up and
19:47
be able to help me, you know, remove my concerns and fears on
19:51
this and have a conversation than just looking at the EMR.
19:54
And these are way better questions than when they were
19:57
just searching on Google. Exactly.
19:58
Exactly. So the quantities are.
20:00
Conversing with all of humanity's content in all
20:03
languages, you know, in English or whatever their language is
20:07
that they're, that they that they choose to converse in.
20:10
Exactly, exactly. So I think so this is going to
20:13
add a lot of pressure to the system and like you know, if you
20:15
just look at healthcare for the matter, US, we have 330 million
20:19
people, we have less than 1,000,000 MD's in the country
20:24
and we cannot produce them fast enough, right?
20:26
Takes 10 years to produce an MD. We have less than four and a
20:31
half million, you know, nurses, caregivers, nurse practitioners,
20:36
medical assistants and so forth for 330 million people.
20:40
There is no way we can scale the way we are doing work in
20:44
healthcare, right? So it's almost like a this
20:46
breakout moment in healthcare like, you know, it's an
20:48
inflection point. You have to unlock the what is
20:51
great about these people and extend what they can do through
20:56
AI or non living entities to go increase the reach of what they
20:59
can do and so forth. Right.
21:01
So I think there is going to be a fundamental shift in
21:03
healthcare. And so we were so fortunate.
21:05
You can never as an entrepreneur, you can, you know,
21:08
you can make a decision early on in the market you choose and and
21:12
you hope to get lucky and I got lucky from that perspective.
21:14
Even just thinking about once AI gets, you know, fully embodied
21:20
with, with robotics, like, you know, having that very intimate
21:25
level of communication as well with the, with the patient and
21:31
taking care of our elderly and, and all of the things that
21:34
that's going to be able to do because we also need those
21:38
workers. Absolutely.
21:39
I think, you know, look, we like we, we, we need, people are
21:42
getting older and you need the companionship, you need the
21:45
physical touch. And there's some, you know, with
21:47
embodied AI and robotics, you know, you're, there's still some
21:50
haptic human feel things that are being solved for.
21:53
But it'll happen. It'll eventually, you know,
21:55
catch up. And I think there's a huge
21:57
opportunity just to, you know, extend what, you know, everybody
22:01
back to your team on abundance, right?
22:03
Like, you know, this can truly create abundance for care and
22:07
health. And you know, it just unlocks so
22:09
much potential for everybody to get like, I can get a, you know,
22:12
like one of my colleagues, she used to say, and she's been in
22:16
healthcare forever and she's like, look, one of my mission
22:18
was actually, I want to go out there and when I get to Medicare
22:22
age, I don't want to be complaining about the system.
22:25
I want to have the impact today. So when I get to Medicare age, I
22:29
can actually get and enjoy the benefits of that, right?
22:31
I mean, even that personal view of these things, but I think
22:34
it's going to be, it's going to be incredible.
22:35
Like in a how we in even today, like you know, I'm sure I I use
22:40
function health, for example, Mark Hyman's company and it just
22:44
the amount of the CTO. Lives just really, really close
22:48
nearby. I'm a huge fan.
22:50
I think that's. Incredible.
22:52
I mean, incredible, in fact. Right.
22:53
And then, you know, just having more informed patients and we
22:57
talk about consumerization, we talk about the direct to
23:00
consumer move in healthcare. I think just unlocking, you
23:04
know, if you believe in the power of the universal
23:07
consciousness and having more people thinking about the same
23:10
problems and so forth. For the first time we are
23:13
including patients into the part of the conversation in
23:16
healthcare never happened before.
23:18
That itself will unlock so much value in my.
23:21
Opinion. Yeah, for sure.
23:22
You know, I should, I should give a shout out because this is
23:24
a really special week for Austin.
23:29
Aptronic just announced 520 million of add on funding to
23:34
their Series A, which is over $900 million.
23:39
Amazing. A billion dollar series.
23:41
AI think that that is a record in Austin, but huge shout out to
23:46
Jeff Cardenas. I just I just booked him for the
23:48
podcast. Actually, he's going to.
23:50
Nice, I just sent him a message after I heard the new.
23:52
I saw that he's a he's. A friend and I just could not be
23:56
more happy for for him and his team.
23:58
They were both on how that work will eventually intersect with
24:01
with your company as well. Yeah, I think you know, exactly
24:04
right. I think this is the, the, the,
24:07
the time in the world that we live in, right in the time of
24:09
the universe. Like you have so many people and
24:11
the the, the democratization of these tools.
24:15
People who are closest to the problem now have the tools to go
24:17
build the solutions for the problem.
24:19
And then all of these different things, there's embodied AI and
24:22
robotics happening on one end. There is like deep, you know,
24:25
we're working on a lot of problems around clinical
24:28
judgement, memory, you know, how do you act situational awareness
24:31
and things that are hard to actually, you know, humans have
24:34
it, but we haven't figured out how to model it in software.
24:37
There is things around like, you know, diagnostics and the even
24:41
how do you really truly get to the vision of personalized
24:44
medicine today is just DNA matching, right?
24:47
But it's more than that. Most of the things, it's more
24:50
even your DNA changes based on your social and social economic
24:53
environments and so forth, right?
24:54
How do you bring all of that in together?
24:56
So this, all of these different fields will just collide
24:59
together and it's going to be truly a big, big moment in in
25:03
healthcare. Yeah.
25:04
Do you, do you think that do you think we're going to be able to
25:09
extend our lives and your in my lifetime to like 150 or where do
25:14
you where do you kind of net out and that because it's it is this
25:17
exponential of exponential curves.
25:20
You know. I've got a lot of friends asking
25:22
me about longevity and what I think is going to happen, and I
25:27
think I think it's going to kind of astonish us what we're going
25:30
to unlock there in the next 10 years.
25:33
I think so too. Look, I mean, there's a few
25:35
things. 1 is longevity is a goal.
25:38
Well, it's like the moon shot, right?
25:40
When you try to go power and trying to get to that, it
25:44
unlocks a lot of things like when I even think like where the
25:48
the whole function health and being diagnostic, being able to
25:50
look at 200 biomarkers twice a year across and knowing exactly
25:55
what's going on your body. To me, that's progress, right
25:59
with with, you know, some of the work that several of the folks
26:03
like Brian Johnson's doing, right.
26:06
It's incredible. My wife was, I was talking to my
26:08
wife Anita. She was like, look, Brian
26:10
Johnson will be mad because I'm going to bed late.
26:13
Right. Just that aspect of that impact
26:16
he's making and raising the awareness for folks as you try
26:19
to so go solve longevity. Now, that said, technically all
26:23
the elements of how do you actually drive and live a longer
26:25
life? And you know, it's going to be a
26:27
hard barrier to get across that 100 and 120 and stuff too, but
26:31
it will eventually get there. Right now, more than that, I'm
26:34
more what I'm more interested in the the offshoots of that
26:37
that'll actually drive, that'll dive, you know, like today, the
26:41
growth of mocktails and non alcoholic drinks in the
26:45
universe, it's just unbelievably amazing.
26:47
Amazing mocktail. Last night I at this restaurant
26:51
called Bartlett's, which used to be called Houston's, is actually
26:54
the very first restaurant that Deborah and I went to and we've
26:57
been married 29 years. Oh wow, congratulations.
27:00
And that was the that was the first date restaurant, but they
27:03
had a mocktail last night that just blew my mind.
27:08
It was like this blood orange kind of Margarita tasting
27:12
mocktail. Really, really good.
27:14
You know, I gave up alcohol about a year ago.
27:18
Got it, just did, just did not have any bad mornings.
27:21
You know, the next day. It was actually a psychedelic
27:23
journey for me that led to that. It wasn't something I was
27:27
looking for going into the journey, but but there was this,
27:31
there was this moment in it where I was looking down at my
27:34
body and my soul said you've transcended the need for this
27:39
socially. You're just poisoning yourself.
27:42
Time to move on. You know that was it.
27:45
I, I give up alcohol about four years ago, 5, almost four years
27:48
ago, I still, I still would have a glass of wine.
27:51
Now I rarely even do that too. But it's, it's, it's interesting
27:55
you say that, right? Because to, to your point on
27:57
longevity, right, just that. And I think it was probably a
27:59
podcast or a book I was reading that gave me that big jolt and
28:03
saying, what am I doing this for?
28:04
And like, you don't need that socially.
28:06
And like, in fact, it's, I sleep better.
28:09
I'm I'm actually more socially active in a party without the
28:12
alcohol than for sure drinking alcohol, right.
28:15
And I understand like the IT. Has some social utility for me
28:19
when the The thing is, it's it's it.
28:21
It has a social utility, sometimes with little use, but
28:25
then it can very quickly degrade from there.
28:27
That's so true. And then all the things that it
28:29
does to your body after that, it's not even that's the worst.
28:32
Yeah. But to your point on lunch
28:33
longevity, right, like so to me, like what does does that focus
28:37
on longevity changes the quality of life today?
28:41
For sure, right? And you know, I like talking
28:43
about mocktails on another offshoot was like I finally
28:47
found because I love AI used to love a good gin, but it was hard
28:51
to find good botanicals that taste like gin but not is not
28:54
really doesn't have alcohol in it.
28:56
And I found the Tangare NA in, I think it was, I was last week in
29:01
the Heathrow airport and the lounge had it and I try to get
29:04
it from the, the, the duty free and they didn't have it.
29:07
I'm like, I got to get that. I got to get and make my, you
29:10
know, martinis with that. You know, it was, it was just
29:13
incredible. But anyway.
29:14
Try the little Saints. Have you ever heard?
29:16
That little Saints. Yeah, Little Saints, it's it's
29:18
female owned company. They're crushing that I'm not an
29:22
investor. This is not me promoting them as
29:24
an investor although I wish I was.
29:27
And they they have mushroom based cocktails which is lion's
29:33
mane. So I'm not talking about.
29:35
Psychedelic, it's just a not ayahuasca, yes, not ayahuasca
29:39
either. It's just you know, mushroom
29:41
base. But but the I've had a lot of
29:43
dinner parties over here where Ioffer people either an
29:47
alcoholic drink or, you know, one of these mushroom based
29:52
cocktails with with the gin or they also have the mescal
29:56
version nice from little Saints. And believe it or not, I've been
30:01
shocked at this. People choose 70 to 90% of the
30:06
time, the non alcoholic and and and the cool thing about the
30:10
mushroom in it is it's a nice upper.
30:13
So it leads to really, really great conversation.
30:16
When when when Chris Bache was over here, you know, I had him
30:19
on episode 36. He's one of my favorite authors.
30:22
He wrote LSD in the mind of the universe, Diamonds from Heaven.
30:26
I've read that book twice in some parts three times.
30:28
It's amazing. That was an incredible episode.
30:31
He that evening as we were having dinner with with this,
30:37
with this amazing group, including Mark Gobert, who was,
30:39
who was on episode 2 and Jason Carp who was in episode 3.
30:44
He was like, wow, those those mushroom based cocktails.
30:46
Like it really led to a very stimulating conversation.
30:50
So it's a it's a nice upper versus just being non alcoholic.
30:53
You know, it, it's, it's, it's interesting the I remember
30:56
reading, I don't remember which book it is a long time ago,
30:59
science fiction where we have transcended the need to eat
31:02
meat, to eat drink alcohol as a society.
31:05
Because these were things that you look back and there's this
31:07
line on that book. I can't even remember what that
31:10
book was, but it talks about like, you know, and you look
31:13
back at the time where it humans thought it was OK to kill
31:16
animals and put them on a plate, which is kind of, I'm a
31:19
vegetarian. You can must say, I know you are
31:21
for 16 years, yeah. So it, it's, it's that evolution
31:25
that is going to drive. And so whether that leads to
31:27
longevity, I mean, if you really think about diseases like
31:30
cancer, I don't know, you probably know this, but 70% of
31:34
all cancers are actually preventable by modifying your
31:37
lifestyle. And it's like the exposure to
31:40
different elements, how it changes the DNA in your body and
31:42
stuff like that. So when you play all of that out
31:45
of the long term, we have a kind of short circuited our need to
31:49
actually doing things and created shortcuts and stuff like
31:51
that. You don't need to take any more
31:53
shortcuts, but this longevity Dr. is actually going to help
31:56
everybody get wake up to some of those things.
31:58
We skip the steps in our evolution.
32:01
Now we got the back to again, linking it back to your
32:04
abundance mindset, you'll have the ability to pause, reflect
32:07
and say I skipped that step. Let me actually just go add that
32:10
back in and see what happens and whether that leads to a 250 year
32:14
lifespan or 150 year lifespan. More important than that, it's
32:18
changes life today, here and now, or I think that's going to
32:21
be the huge win for. Yeah, I mean that's, that's
32:23
really the big point is that I, I kind of framed that up as the,
32:27
the number, you know, the living to 150.
32:30
But the reality is living well to that time, you know, I I call
32:34
that return on life investment rolling.
32:37
On life. And, you know, you want to feel
32:39
like great while you're alive because, you know, I've, I've
32:42
got some friends over the years who have said like my
32:46
grandmother, you know, she drank and smoked and she was 100 years
32:50
old, etcetera. And I'm like, OK, that's a very,
32:53
very big genetic rarity. And, you know, more power to
32:58
her. That's that's fine.
32:59
You know, to each their own. But I'm like, you'll feel really
33:03
great if you have a good diet, you exercise, you get good
33:08
sleep, you know, you give up alcohol, etcetera.
33:12
You know, don't let it have that hold on you and you know, you'll
33:16
you'll feel more alive and have, you know, be able to do amazing
33:20
things. You know, go on, go on, you
33:23
know, beautiful trips, hikes, you know, wherever that is, you
33:26
know, regardless of, you know, the amount of money you have,
33:30
like just Austin alone, there's so many beautiful places that
33:33
you can just hike in this city. Absolutely no, It's it's just
33:36
like it changes the the, the I mean it's incredible like that.
33:40
The quality of life can just so much improve, but like just
33:44
better choices. Like, I mean, it's the, it's,
33:46
it's not a new concept. And you know, this was probably
33:48
what our parents tried to tell us when we were young and, you
33:51
know, but I think it's becoming more and more accessible for
33:54
most folks. I mean, it used to be a very,
33:56
you know, I remember like when I was being a vegetarian
33:59
travelling around in airports. I mean, like you, you're
34:02
vegetarian, you get salads, right?
34:04
And I'm like, I hate salads and I need, I need some carbs and I
34:08
don't get any of that stuff there.
34:09
There was a time that was there. Now you go to any place, you get
34:13
great access to vegan food. It's still a probably a first
34:16
world thing, you know, but AUS theme.
34:18
But it's getting better. And I was in Bangalore two weeks
34:20
ago. We have a team there.
34:22
I mean the restaurant scenes, the the, the whole I mean.
34:25
Bangalore is amazing. Amazing and you get so many and
34:29
there's like you can, you don't see there's actually another
34:32
interesting thing there like, and I know we'll touch upon
34:36
spirituality and some of this thing.
34:37
There is this whole a big rave in India trying connecting back
34:42
to the Eastern roots. And there's the latest.
34:45
You know, it is it has gone from electronic music and stuff to
34:49
what they call Bajan raves, which is basically you just like
34:53
listening to like spiritual music and you know, and then
34:58
just go and there they they turn up the tempo and stuff and
35:01
people don't drink. It's a 0 alcohol parties and
35:03
there are huge party centres that does do that today, which
35:07
is a huge shift. And these are young 2022 year
35:10
olds, right? I mean, so I think the world is
35:12
definitely moving towards that, you know, very different world
35:15
than, you know, when we were growing up.
35:17
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great.
35:18
Yeah. Just a more intentional place,
35:21
really focused on the inner journey, you know, which is all
35:25
the spiritual traditions. That's where that's where the
35:27
Kingdom of God is found, is inside.
35:30
So so Ganesh, what is your highest aspiration with
35:33
Autonomize AI? The the word, you know,
35:36
autonomize AI, like the whole idea of making things autonomous
35:41
in nature. So we want to we truly want to
35:43
autonomize healthcare, right, make it self thriving.
35:46
And what does that mean? Well, today getting care is a,
35:51
you know, partially luck, partially what kind of insurance
35:54
plans you have, partially where do you live and all of that kind
35:57
of stuff. What will it look in a world
35:59
where like, you know, I want to get care when I want to get care
36:02
at the place that is most convenient to me, you know, and
36:05
I don't have to worry about, you know, paying an arm and a leg
36:07
for it, right? So it changed the, the only way
36:10
you can get to that future as a patient is by changing the
36:14
structure of the system. The last 20-30 years, last 20
36:19
years for as an investor, if you look at it, health tech has done
36:23
very well. Health, it has done well, health
36:27
services has done well. But if you ask the average
36:29
patient, has healthcare gotten better or worse, Most people
36:33
would argue it has not gotten better for sure, right?
36:36
And one of the problems, there are many problems there.
36:39
There's incentive structures. And so one of the problems is
36:41
like the way we solve problems in healthcare had been in narrow
36:45
silos. You solve the symptom of a
36:47
problem, you so you create a Hey, I'm going to create a
36:49
patient engagement app that'll change the way my doctors
36:52
communicate and or my doctor's office communicate with the
36:55
patient. But you don't change the fact
36:58
that that communication also has to that patient has to wait for
37:01
getting their prior authorizations on time.
37:03
They have to wait for the appointment to fill up.
37:06
The capacity of doctors are lower.
37:08
So you solve the symptom and not the under underlying structural
37:10
problem. So one of our, you know, goals
37:14
and vision is like, how do you change the underbelly of how
37:17
operations are run. So what we're building an
37:19
autonomize is like think of us the the operating system for
37:22
running of future agentic health enterprise as we come.
37:26
And that's the vision. That's the the agentic health
37:29
enterprise works in a certain way, right.
37:30
One is you have, you know, like lesser number of human beings
37:35
doing administrative work and all of the admin work is done by
37:38
AI agents that talk to each other, have shared context, can
37:41
change, you know, can transfer context from humans to, you
37:44
know, there's still decisions that needs to be, you know,
37:48
human judgement needs to be applied for, but they don't have
37:51
to work on pulling information from 15 systems.
37:54
So there is a slew of work that we're doing on making sure that
37:57
you have agentic workflows that are driving efficiency across
38:00
the enterprise. Well, this and then what you
38:03
have to do is like you have these people's health needs
38:06
change. And today you see it in the form
38:09
of our CMS updates, the policy on how you should treat Medicare
38:14
Advantage patients or Medicare patients.
38:17
Well, it takes six months to percolate down.
38:19
There's a lot of change management that involves and
38:21
stuff like that. Well, in an agentic health
38:23
enterprise, you wanted to be self learning, you wanted to
38:26
actually learn from the interactions and say, hey, this
38:28
population, we've been trying to provide this, you know, course
38:31
of care. It's not working right.
38:34
And you don't need another separate, you know, independent
38:36
clinical study to do that. There's evidence here.
38:39
There's like even things like so the FDA is now going to approve
38:42
like drugs based on real world data rather than just going
38:46
through a 20 year old, a 20 year clinical trial process, if you
38:49
will, right. So there's a lot of these
38:50
structural things that are also coming into place.
38:52
And then third, I think look, the healthcare at the core of it
38:56
is very human, right? We feel better when we talk to
39:00
this. And there's some Gray areas here
39:02
like, you know, will AI doctors will be really, will that be
39:05
really successful? Will they really solve the
39:07
problems that we have? We don't know yet.
39:10
It definitely changes our access to care.
39:12
But then I was talking to somebody and they were saying,
39:14
look, it shows me that there is, I can get care from an AI, but I
39:19
still have to then go to the next step and I don't have
39:22
access to that care. I still have to talk to a
39:23
doctor, right? So I think there is an element
39:26
of like, how do you expand and extend the, the reach of who
39:30
gets care when they get care and where do they get care?
39:33
And so, and our biggest aspirations to be today, I said
39:36
we're very fortunate to be working with three of the five
39:39
largest health enterprises in the United States, several
39:42
health plans, several provider systems and so forth.
39:47
I think if, if you can create that universal context layer for
39:51
healthcare that truly becomes, and you know, there's arguments
39:54
on AGI and I know we'll go there and stuff too, right?
39:57
So if you really think about generally capable layers for
40:01
building a healthcare AGI and, and I fundamentally believe it's
40:04
not going to be 1 AGI, it's going to be multiple
40:07
intelligences. To really truly become, to build
40:11
a healthcare AGI, you need a core understanding of a context
40:14
data set that allows us to understand how people make
40:17
decisions. When do people make decisions?
40:19
Why does Sally approve these kind of requests every time she
40:22
gets? Because she's done it for 30
40:24
years and there's some locked up knowledge in her head.
40:26
If we can transfer that into a universal context layer, then
40:30
you create that healthcare abundance that open up the
40:33
opportunity and the aperture for people to solve problems for
40:36
themselves. Focus on, Hey, I'm an
40:38
individual. I need the tools to focus on
40:40
what works best for me to get a shot at living to 150, right?
40:45
Versus I have allergies. I have this thing.
40:48
How, on how, how will I change my, my dietary, you know,
40:52
preferences to go align to better IBS, medications and
40:56
things like that. So there is that opportunity and
40:58
where we want to be is that universal context layer for
41:01
healthcare that can unlock this agenting organizations to
41:06
operate, you know, to have their healthcare workers work, operate
41:09
at the top of their license, deliver care better, lower the
41:12
cost of care, increase the access to care to everybody in
41:15
the universe. So.
41:16
And ultimately spend more time with the patients.
41:20
I mean, if they're doing all that, all that kind of drudgery,
41:26
like drudging through all of that information versus just
41:29
being with the patient and being enabled, that's going to create
41:34
much better outcomes. It's going to get, you know,
41:37
it's going to be incredible. And I think, you know, like more
41:38
and more people like there's already like, you know, virtual
41:41
care has its moment, had its moment had a huge impact and
41:44
just being able to talk to a person So a lot in healthcare
41:48
and how people get healed. It's the humans.
41:51
That's why we, our tag line autonomize is like AI that does
41:55
the work so the humans can heal better.
41:57
And so it's it's just, I think we're in that we're not too far.
42:02
I think we're going to get there sooner than we all think.
42:05
Yeah. I mean one, one thing I think
42:06
about I, I mean, I don't know if this will be directly
42:09
applicable, but I think it will be.
42:11
But there there was this moment in the last election where
42:19
political campaigns were using AI to do robo dialing and spiel
42:25
the candidates proposals on why they should support and they
42:32
thought it was going to be very, very successful.
42:33
Like reach, reach all these voters, you know, in, in, in,
42:37
you know, with this incredible scripted message.
42:41
And the script would start out with the disclosure that it was
42:45
an AI. And 99% of the time people just
42:48
hang up. And I think that, I mean, I
42:51
would now I'm, you know, I'm an older guy, right?
42:54
So it'll be interesting to see how the next generation does
42:58
this, you know, our children, you know, do this.
43:00
But but I would much rather use a doctor that's very enabled on
43:07
the back end with AI. Much much much rather use the
43:12
doctor you know and and have a doctor that way versus just
43:16
completely interact with an AIA non a non human you know.
43:20
No, I I agree. I think look, and and there's
43:23
there's, there's that aspect when there's also the other
43:25
aspect, you have parts of the countries that don't have
43:28
doctors, right. So for there at least having an
43:31
AI as a doctor. So there's like those various,
43:34
you know, layers of this, if you will.
43:37
But in general, yeah, I mean, imagine, you know, when when you
43:40
know that everybody's walking around, all the doctors are
43:42
walking around with an exoskeleton, that AI that
43:45
expands their consciousness of what they can see and read to
43:48
get access to information, help you to help them treat better.
43:51
At the core end of it. I mean, like to, to your point
43:53
on the elections example, people want to do deal with people, I
43:58
mean, just in general and pets, but you know, mainly they want
44:01
to interact with people. It's the stories.
44:03
And especially in a world where content is cheap, because you
44:07
can build and develop content for less than a cent on a dollar
44:11
per minute. And I think it it's going to
44:13
become more and more critical that the human connection, how
44:17
you connect with them, either through one-on-one conversations
44:20
or through a broader medium like this and stuff.
44:23
It's going to matter more than like AI just being a dispersant
44:27
dispersement mechanism. How do you look at this
44:32
incredible moment in human history?
44:34
I mean, this is the, you know, you and I have been technologist
44:37
for a long time. We're in the exponential of
44:40
exponential curves. You know, everything is
44:43
simultaneously rising, whether it's AI, quantum computing is
44:49
going to hit stability soon. Robotics, you know, again, huge
44:54
shout out to Apptronic. And you know, I, I saw Tesla's
44:57
recent move and I drive a Model S and you know, the, the way I
45:02
found out, I, I read so many spiritual texts now.
45:05
I don't read the news that much, but friends were like, what are
45:08
you going to do? And I'm like, what do you mean?
45:09
What am I going to do? And they said, well, did you
45:13
realize they're not going to sell Tesla's not going to sell
45:15
Model S s anymore? And I said, OK, well, why?
45:20
Well, obviously Elon Musk is going all in on robots.
45:24
And then, and then we have brain computer interfaces, which,
45:30
which you know, that's, that's one where to me, it feels kind
45:36
of the most, it could be the most informative about
45:40
understanding what a reality actually is, because you could
45:44
see literally what's going on inside of someone's brain.
45:48
You know, I gave you a copy of the Lattice today, my science
45:51
fiction novella. And the protagonist, Dr.
45:53
Alexander Bliss, he has this audacious idea to hook up, you
45:59
know, everybody from spiritual masters to psychonauts to deep
46:02
meditators to really figure out what is the unifying thread of
46:06
what they're actually seeing and bringing.
46:09
Computer interfaces have gotten to a point of resolution by that
46:12
time where you can literally see like, what someone's even
46:15
dreaming. And I think that that's going to
46:19
happen in your my lifetime pretty pretty quickly as well.
46:23
So how do you, how do you kind of look at this AI moment
46:26
overall? Are you, you know, more
46:29
positive, negative? Like there's just such a mix of
46:32
like utopia and dystopia, dystopia narratives going on.
46:36
Well, I mean, I'm I'm definitely more optimistic than than
46:40
pessimistic on the MO right. And I think one, it's like, you
46:45
know, Even so, I like to think of the chat GPD moment as like
46:50
we had we made so much progress at the time when Chad GPD
46:54
launched even 646 to 8 months before that at an atomic level,
46:59
looking at a picture, identifying what's in the
47:01
picture, looking at a text and understanding prose.
47:04
And you know what that what what the sentence means.
47:07
Looking at frames within a video and identifying objects at at
47:10
very high position. AI or algorithms were already
47:14
far superior than humans. Right.
47:17
But collapsing that whole thing into a general capability set,
47:22
what we did was actually we, you know, what the industry did was
47:26
what open AI did was collapse the expectation level of people
47:29
who were like AI is here and then they saw Chad GPD and it
47:32
just collapsed that it was like a big moment, right?
47:35
I think we'll see a lot more and people are getting getting like
47:39
people stopped. A lot of people I know stopped
47:40
tracking the model evolution. They're like, oh, this changes
47:43
everyday and stuff like that. So I think what we'll notice and
47:46
this is going to be and still, you know, from technology and
47:52
core algorithmic, you know, innovation and stuff too.
47:56
We haven't come too far from that.
47:58
Language models as being the first, like, you know, the
48:01
recursive language models as being as a technology layer.
48:03
Now we there's Yan Li Kun. Yan Li Kun working on world
48:07
models and a few other kind of. Doctor.
48:10
Fefy is working on world models. So I think there is that next
48:14
quantum change that will happen that will unlock a huge, you
48:18
know, performance element and so forth.
48:20
So, and this will keep. I mean, it's no different than I
48:23
think the rate of change is a little faster than we are used
48:25
to, but it's not that faster that people give it credits to.
48:30
I think the big thing was the expectations that people had
48:32
versus now what they're seeing has just collapsed so much.
48:35
But people in research, they know, yeah, it's changing every
48:37
day, but it's been changing everyday.
48:39
Now the applications of these change are becoming more
48:42
pronounced. Like the Opus 4.6 release from
48:46
Anthropic or you know, the, the chat, GPD 5.3, all of that
48:50
stuff, you can see it in more people's hands, so.
48:53
And and way more capable too. Way more capable, right?
48:56
I think you know, and, and the capability is also relative,
48:59
right. It's like, I think the big
49:01
difference in my perspective is that the applicability, the
49:05
applied AI field has actually just evolved and exploded,
49:09
right? That wasn't the case earlier.
49:11
Like you had to build a model, you had to train it with data,
49:13
you had to hand annotate the data.
49:15
Now you're getting a better and faster starting starting points
49:18
to build almost anything you want, right?
49:20
And that unlocks innovation. You get better tools, bicycles
49:23
for the mind and everybody's now unlocking more and more
49:26
innovation out of it. So to your question, how do I
49:29
see the, the moment we live in, I think this the, we've unlocked
49:33
the technology, you know, pathway to actually leading to
49:38
all of these things. The, the on the, on the
49:42
optimistic side, I think there's still more work to be done on
49:45
like, how do I make this real? Like, you know, if you look at
49:47
even the numbers, like in enterprises, 98% of all or 95%
49:52
of all AI projects don't lead to an ROI.
49:55
You know, 80% of all projects failed because it works great
49:58
and chat GBD on a little thing on a, on a little demo.
50:01
When you try to put something in an enterprise, it's harder to
50:04
actually solve a problem. There is some work to be done.
50:07
I think we'll figure it out. Entrepreneurs will figure it
50:09
out, companies will figure it out.
50:10
And that's going to be another because that will really unlock
50:15
how you capture the value of AI through GDP, you know, impact,
50:19
right? And then once you do that, I
50:22
think this is also. Hopefully, hopefully not just
50:24
GDP impact, but also gross national happiness impact.
50:28
I'm still fresh off our trip to Bhutan in December.
50:33
That's how they measure themselves.
50:34
Amazing. I had a, you know, in 2020,
50:37
March 1st week, I was supposed to be in the Kingdom of Bhutan
50:43
to the king talking about AI. And you can imagine that didn't
50:46
happen because. They did not happen and they
50:48
say. Because they had the first case
50:50
at that time until March 2nd week, they didn't have a single
50:53
case of COVID-19. And but they said we're going to
50:56
shut down the country. And then they had cases after
50:58
that and stuff too. But I missed my opportunity.
51:00
I want to go back to. I want to go to.
51:01
Yeah, when we were there, there was and in one of the hotels
51:05
there was this very proud book about exactly how they handled
51:08
COVID and COVID, right. Yeah, of course, happiness too.
51:13
But, you know, the country is all about deep inner
51:16
contentment. You know, it's very Buddhist and
51:19
wow, what a what a beautiful trip that was.
51:21
Sorry for the diversion. No, no, no.
51:23
That's. Great.
51:23
I think you know so. Hopefully you know not just GDP
51:26
measurement. I mean GDP is 1 measurement but
51:30
but you know outcomes a whole different measurement.
51:33
Fair enough. You know, I I think look, I mean
51:35
so too almost touching there as well.
51:37
Like I think third big wave they had to think about it like 1 is
51:40
like, how does it go drive value?
51:42
Because when you drive that tangible quantified GDP value,
51:46
it shows up in the way we live lives right now.
51:49
The next year on that is actually how do you then unlock
51:52
the true human potential? Like I now can, you know,
51:55
yesterday or day before yesterday at dinner, we were
51:58
talking to something and there was like, it's, it's, it's
52:02
pretty lame. But you know, they, the, the my
52:04
guest had a call he had to make and he walked out for a call for
52:07
5 minutes. And I build a mini app to go
52:10
scan RFPs of Allstate websites, you know, to go look at, you
52:13
know, because he was telling me about something.
52:15
Hey, have you looked at this RFI that came in and this thing like
52:18
just, I built it on Claude and I sent it to the team and say, go
52:20
figure this out, right? So that unlocking that
52:24
everybody. Has the power.
52:25
I imagine that blew his mind. That it just completely, you
52:28
know, 5 minutes later and 5 minutes later you're like, you
52:30
did that now. And I'm like, but I think
52:32
everybody now has access to that powerful technology now that
52:36
brings in like, and, and I, I will get to the pessimistic side
52:40
of things, but on the optimistic side, like what can that do
52:43
when, if I don't have to do anything to live my life, I
52:46
don't have to worry about like, you know, it's truly true
52:50
abundance, But even even from a time abundance perspective, I
52:53
save time not having to search for restaurants to get that, you
52:57
know, date booked or I don't have to go look for 15 options.
53:01
I can just set my parameters and get the recommendations for
53:04
where I want to go, when I want to go, what flights do I take
53:06
and so forth, right. All of that will unlock a lot
53:10
more brain cycles for us and mental space for us to go solve
53:13
other problems, right? Humans are incredibly good at
53:16
finding out new things to do. Yeah.
53:17
I. Look at it is we're just
53:19
absolutely shattering the barrier to creativity and that
53:22
our highest level of work, that's that's the good stuff.
53:26
And and you know, there's a nuance there, which is like, it
53:29
is not the creativity unlocked by an AI doing something for
53:33
you, but when the AI does all the things you can otherwise do,
53:36
it unlocks your potential to be more creative, right.
53:39
And then like the, but that said, I think I'm also very, you
53:43
know, concerned a little bit on like you hear like all the
53:47
experts who are closer to the technology and research, they're
53:51
warning about all the challenges and the, you know, the issues
53:54
that this can do. I worry less about an AGI and AI
53:58
taking over at this stage, right?
53:59
I mean, I've changed my perspective a little bit over
54:02
the last two years, to be honest.
54:03
Like I thought it was completely out.
54:05
It's not going to happen and stuff too.
54:06
I've changed that a little bit. You mean what was completely out
54:09
that that we would create AGI or what?
54:10
Yeah, we would create an AGI that'll go rogue and take over
54:13
humanity paper clip maximization problem and all of that stuff,
54:16
right Possible. We've seen that at Claude bot
54:20
like, you know, 2-2 weeks ago with that with mold book.
54:24
And you know, I think there is potential there.
54:28
But what I really worry about is more the like this technology in
54:32
the hands of the wrong people, right?
54:33
What can can they weaponize this?
54:35
And it's already happening. We're seeing that the the amount
54:38
of scams that have gone up for like people who sound like
54:41
grandma getting call from her grandson who sounds like the
54:44
grandson because the grandson had a podcast and they picked
54:46
the voice from there. All of that will happen.
54:49
I think you know, my hope there is like, look, we'll start AI
54:53
think we're to bring everybody together as a society to how do
54:56
you deal with it? Get them into the conversation
54:59
and the podcast. I was telling you about like the
55:00
whole idea of like in 2020 starting stories in AI and if
55:05
you did about. This.
55:06
Was your podcast? This was my podcast.
55:07
It started podcast mid 2020 or early 2021, did about 130 a 140
55:13
episodes. And you know, it was more about
55:16
trying to bring people from different parts to talk about AI
55:19
and, and, and how they view it and how this is just bringing
55:23
more people into the conversation.
55:24
It's more important now than anywhere else, anytime else,
55:28
right? So if you were just if you're in
55:31
AI or not, you're going to be impacted by AI.
55:33
So you better be part of the conversation, right?
55:36
Be it politics, be it, you know, you not working technology and
55:40
stuff like that. So I think there is an element
55:42
of you got to raise the awareness and what this means.
55:45
How do you work with good AI versus bad AI?
55:47
And then, you know, hope and pray that the humanity's
55:51
goodness will play itself out. There's always been in history
55:55
more good people than bad people, right?
55:57
Right. And I think that'll play itself
56:00
out here right from that perspective.
56:02
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, they're the
56:05
more good people, like using AI to protect against people using
56:13
bad people, using AI to try to create those scams.
56:17
And yeah, and there's just such an opportunity there for
56:21
creation, too. Absolutely.
56:23
And I think, look, I mean like you were fundamentally driven by
56:27
humans are driven by like motivations, ambitions, and or
56:31
we're all capitalists in our minds and stuff.
56:33
All of this creates opportunities.
56:35
And you know, like the, the reason cybersecurity companies
56:40
are getting the valuation they are because they are solving a
56:42
real problem. And when you have more bad
56:43
actors that create more good actors trying to solve that
56:46
problem and so forth. So I think, I think we're, we're
56:49
in this like, I like the, the word Kairos, right?
56:53
The the Greek word, which talks about like that it is it's
56:57
thing, it's it's in the Bible like some 700 times and it talks
57:00
about this momentous time in history where you have an
57:04
opportunity to take an action that'll change the course of the
57:07
future, right. We're kind of there in that
57:10
particular thing. You know, we're like, we're
57:11
definitely there in our company at this time where we have the
57:13
opportunity, we have the early thing and we have to give it
57:16
everything to go change it. I think as a society, we're
57:19
getting there, we're getting closer and closer to that where
57:22
we have our moment of Kairos that we can just go and shape
57:26
and change it the way, you know, we want it to play out.
57:28
How do you see us actually making it to abundance for all
57:34
on the planet? Like what do you think the
57:36
catalyzing moments are going to be?
57:38
I think we're already on our way there, number one, right, I
57:41
think. I do too, I think.
57:43
I think it's inevitable if we don't use these tools to destroy
57:47
ourselves. And I'm 95% certain that we
57:50
want, it's a big, you know, there is an asterisk, but it's,
57:53
but it's a this outlined in this kind of 5% chance that the, you
57:59
know, that we're going to have abundance that we can't even
58:03
fathom today. And, you know, our ancestors
58:06
couldn't have fathom the abundance that you and I have
58:10
today and that we have an American, not all countries have
58:13
that. I mean, we have the highest GDP,
58:16
you know, per person here. So it's, it's, it's, I think
58:21
it's inevitable with the acceleration like you can, you
58:25
can now start to see it on the. Horizon and, and I also it, it
58:28
may not be the way we all think it is, right.
58:33
So it's, it, it'll be very localized.
58:34
Like I'll give you a simple example.
58:36
I was in, you know, like even a couple of years ago, I was in
58:39
India and the fact that I'm hungry at 11:35 PM to having hot
58:45
food served to me fraction of a cost that he would go to in a
58:50
restaurant in 10 minutes was possible because of how the
58:54
localized ecosystem is to me in some form of way.
58:57
That's abundance to everybody living.
58:59
There are people living in poverty in one hand.
59:01
Now you're actually saying I want to eat something and I want
59:03
to get hot food in my hands, right?
59:05
And they get that at 11:30 PM. So I think this abundance will
59:09
be very localized. I don't think it will be global
59:12
as everybody, you know. So from that definition, I think
59:14
we're already on our way to abundance from that.
59:17
Now, I'm also not a believer in you need a catalyzing, you know,
59:22
a big, you know, debacle to happen or a global pandemic to
59:27
actually, you know, like there are a lot of good things that
59:30
came out of COVID, but there's also a lot of polarizing things
59:32
that came out of COVID. So I, I think it's, it's if
59:35
there's one thing that I, you know, you cannot really 100%
59:40
predict the future and how it's going to play out.
59:42
But I do know that like the pathways of what we are seeing,
59:45
what has happened so far, we're well on our way to abundance.
59:49
There will be some bumps in the road.
59:50
There'll definitely be some bumps in the road.
59:52
Someone's going to fat finger something with AI.
59:54
Someone's going to, you know, have a malicious intent to
59:57
actually go, you know, acquire capital, acquire, you know,
1:00:01
power and some places and so forth.
1:00:03
And you're going to have those things.
1:00:05
But you look at the, you know, lengthen your horizon of
1:00:10
history. And we live in a lot more
1:00:12
peaceful times today than we did 100 years ago.
1:00:16
We live in we less people dying of non international costs today
1:00:20
than it did even 50 years ago. So I think we're well on our way
1:00:24
to get there. And I think, you know, it's
1:00:26
going to be very interesting how this next three to five years
1:00:29
play out. But then we'll get into a new
1:00:31
normal. Like we talked about where in
1:00:33
like, you know, before cloud computing for us to build
1:00:36
software, it was like you to buy infrastructure hardware, build
1:00:39
software, build this whole thing.
1:00:41
And now we just go swipe a credit card.
1:00:43
And like even 10 years ago you would just go with cloud
1:00:45
computing. It changed things that well,
1:00:46
with AI becoming the operating layer, then it'll be like as
1:00:51
simple as picking up a phone and asking a question or saying
1:00:53
instructing an algorithm or a model or an AI, an agent to do
1:00:57
something for you. So I think it just elevates
1:00:59
everybody to a new level and there's be a new normal, but
1:01:03
we're definitely well on our way to open it.
1:01:05
Yeah, yeah. You know, one of the, the stats
1:01:08
that I literally just read this morning, I, I, I make this
1:01:10
recommendation quite a bit to people that if you want to
1:01:14
rewire your brain, start taking in positive news instead of just
1:01:21
the news that's pushed you because the algorithms are
1:01:23
always going to push, you know, dystopia to you, whether it's
1:01:26
social media, yeah, into the amygdala.
1:01:30
And, and that's because of the scarcity we've dealt with for
1:01:33
such a long, long period of time.
1:01:35
You know, we've been around for 300,000 years and as I like to
1:01:39
say, you know, we have .1% of our evolutionary time we've had
1:01:42
electricity, you know, but but the stat I read this morning,
1:01:46
it's from the Progress Network, which shout out to Zachary
1:01:49
Carabelle. He's a good friend.
1:01:51
He was one of our investors in in dated out world and I've
1:01:55
known him for a long time from Ted and other communities.
1:01:58
And this is a big project he's been on for, for a long time to
1:02:03
really share all the positive news.
1:02:05
It's a it's a nonprofit that he founded probably I think five
1:02:09
years ago. But the stat that jumped out to
1:02:13
me actually was about India. And the stat was that in 2019,
1:02:19
only 17% of Indian households had access to tap water.
1:02:24
In 2019, now it's over 80% and that short of a period.
1:02:28
Of time drinking water. Now now think about, you know,
1:02:32
applying robotics and everything else to.
1:02:36
Yeah. Amplify and and like, you know,
1:02:38
accelerate all of the infrastructure that needs to be
1:02:43
built in countries to to really create human thriving.
1:02:48
I think that. It's I think in public, I mean,
1:02:50
and it changes the, I mean like the way we thought about world
1:02:53
power structures changes, right? I mean like anybody with access
1:02:57
to I mean that's the big rush now with data centers and power
1:03:00
and things like that power infrastructure, because you can
1:03:03
power AI to go do this. I think there will be a global
1:03:07
market that will also play out and making sure like even
1:03:09
countries like Uganda without having their own power plants
1:03:12
can still get access to power because there'll be some
1:03:15
arbitrage in there. But I do think that, like, you
1:03:16
know, this will create this whole big different global norm,
1:03:20
right? I mean that that, you know, the,
1:03:24
the hope and the goal is like, how do you not make this even
1:03:29
from a country's perspective, a 0 sum game?
1:03:31
Like I got to be the supreme, the the I got to be the
1:03:35
superpower. And I don't want to actually
1:03:37
give access to the US China relationship right now and all
1:03:40
of that stuff too. It's.
1:03:41
The US and China have to figure out a way to collaborate on
1:03:46
this. I mean, it's the two biggest
1:03:47
superpowers, you know, writing that in my, in my book, love
1:03:50
conquers fear, humanity, AI and nature abundance for all that.
1:03:55
That's not an optional thing to figure out.
1:03:58
Like we have to figure out how to, we can be, we can have
1:04:01
totally different forms of government and you know,
1:04:05
there's, there's, there's many different forms that we can all
1:04:08
learn from each other. And you know, my, my book, I've
1:04:12
really written that. Hopefully the Chinese really
1:04:14
embrace the Dow, the chain, because that is their ancient
1:04:17
philosophy and their spiritual wisdom in terms of, you know,
1:04:22
realizing that the 0 sum game on their side doesn't make any
1:04:27
sense. I think it was really
1:04:28
interesting that China was the one that launched deep sea car
1:04:31
one as an open source model, right?
1:04:33
You know, that was that was last year on January 20th, the day
1:04:37
before President Trump announced Stargate alongside Larry
1:04:42
Ellison, Sam Altman and mayor's son literally the day before.
1:04:46
And that was, that was I. Didn't make that connection.
1:04:48
Yeah, the week after, that's when NASDAQ lost a trillion
1:04:51
dollars, a market cap, because there was this realization of
1:04:54
like, wait a second, Is there this big of a proprietary
1:04:59
advantage in these models or is it just obvious that open source
1:05:02
is going to win? I think, I think at this point,
1:05:04
for me, it's pretty obvious that open source is going to win.
1:05:07
Absolutely. And I think like what we talked
1:05:08
about, right, the more progress is made when you have more
1:05:12
people working on a broader, more capable platform to drive
1:05:16
innovation. And then in general, that's
1:05:19
going to be, I mean, historically we've seen open
1:05:21
source wins long term, like may have shorter, you know, early
1:05:25
success, but then over time, that's, and especially in this
1:05:28
age of AI, open source is the way to go in general, right?
1:05:31
So I do think I do think like, you know, and then we'll also
1:05:34
realize that these models are building blocks that are great
1:05:39
capable building blocks. What do you do on top of that?
1:05:42
What do you actually build as infrastructure on top of that to
1:05:45
solve real problems, you know, domain specific problems or
1:05:48
personal problems and so forth. I mean, the whole idea of mold
1:05:51
book was amazing, right? I mean, like from the fact that
1:05:54
it was written by someone who's never done programming in their
1:05:56
life over the weekend was where you actually exposed some of the
1:06:01
limitations of, you know, like it was not intentional.
1:06:04
They didn't try to actually steal everybody's, you know,
1:06:06
important information. They just didn't think about it
1:06:10
when they white coated something, right?
1:06:12
So you could get into things like that.
1:06:14
But I do think that it'll the whole open innovation and the
1:06:20
cat's already out of the back, right?
1:06:21
So the I don't think you can dial back and I think the
1:06:26
individual API players and stuff will have a role to play. close
1:06:29
those companies still, you know, Microsoft is a great example.
1:06:33
Where is this Red Hat, right? So they'll just have different
1:06:37
markets and different players to go, places to go.
1:06:39
What did you think about the kind of the frenzy and panic
1:06:44
around Malt Book being conscious?
1:06:48
You know, I thought I thought it was, I thought it was pretty
1:06:51
ridiculous that that people are like, Oh my gosh, it's
1:06:54
conscious. You know, they're inventing
1:06:56
their own language, they're inventing their own religion,
1:06:58
etcetera. These these are agents that were
1:07:01
programmed to behave in a certain way.
1:07:04
You know, it's, it's, you know, I think it's, it's, it's, it's
1:07:08
a, it's a lot of bullshit like on that.
1:07:10
Like there's a lot of hype now. It's interesting, right?
1:07:13
We studied the, you know, like my head of AI Bharathi came from
1:07:17
IBM research and we were spending a lot of time thinking
1:07:20
through it. You know, we were like we
1:07:21
started dissecting some of these things and you start noticing
1:07:24
certain things. For example, humans have memory
1:07:26
associated memory. So when I see Brett, I think
1:07:29
about, you know, data dot world, I think about bizarre voice, I
1:07:33
think, you know, core metrics. I think about the great work
1:07:36
you've done with conscious capitalism.
1:07:39
I think about love. All of that stuff comes in.
1:07:41
There's a lot of associated memories.
1:07:43
You don't have a construct for that for agents today, right.
1:07:46
So for us, it was like the the experiment in mold book when we
1:07:49
actually studied, it is like, there's a lot of things you can
1:07:52
learn and how do you build more capable systems, you know, And
1:07:55
that is think of the biggest, you know, lesson out of a
1:07:58
project like that. Now, Stanford has had a project
1:08:01
for two years called Smallville. Same idea.
1:08:04
They let loose a bunch of agents.
1:08:06
They form their own governments. They talk to each other.
1:08:09
I first learned about that from Ethan Malik.
1:08:11
Ethan Malik? Yeah, yeah.
1:08:12
If people aren't following him on LinkedIn, that's a must do.
1:08:14
Oh. Man, Ethan's amazing.
1:08:16
I heard him speak at one of those events and he just
1:08:19
reframed how, you know, it's not just work, it's Co work with AI
1:08:24
in the future, right. And so I think like projects
1:08:26
like mold books are great experiments for us to learn.
1:08:29
Now there's going to be fallout there.
1:08:31
People are going to give their, you know, credit card numbers
1:08:37
and API keys and that'll just get exposed.
1:08:39
All of that stuff. Is that the?
1:08:40
Mold books are security nightmare.
1:08:41
I mean, to be, to be clear, like, you know, I think it's
1:08:45
good that there's these flash points to get people to wake up.
1:08:49
Exactly. Exactly.
1:08:50
That, you know, is it, is it conscious?
1:08:53
No, not, not in my opinion at all.
1:08:56
But you know, is it programmatically something that
1:09:00
can do a lot of harm if you gave it your credit card number and
1:09:05
everything else? Yes, it could.
1:09:07
You know, don't do that. And.
1:09:09
And and, you know, consciousness is a whole different topic.
1:09:12
I mean, you're starting with the premise that consciousness can
1:09:14
be developed. And you mentioned that earlier
1:09:16
when you were, you know, describing this like it can
1:09:18
actually evolve from nothing versus is it already there and
1:09:22
you're just getting part of it. That's the big philosophical
1:09:25
debate, if you will. But then even outside of this,
1:09:27
like these flash in the pans, these projects are also very
1:09:31
critical to understand the limitations of these systems and
1:09:34
what you can do because the future is inevitable.
1:09:37
You will have a self driving organization.
1:09:40
You already have, you will have a self driving.
1:09:43
I mean, you will have everything in your life being powered by AI
1:09:47
in some form or fashion. So those are the non negotiable
1:09:50
futures. Now how we get there, These are
1:09:53
the projects that tell us, OK, there is a gap in security,
1:09:56
let's go fix that. Let's go Dr. Innovation to go
1:09:58
solve that problem on how do you make these agents more
1:10:02
contextually aware or you know, more aware of situational
1:10:05
memories and things like that. So I think all of this will push
1:10:09
the the envelope forward a little bit for everybody.
1:10:12
But yeah, we're not nowhere close to consciousness or
1:10:15
anything like. That how how do you how do you
1:10:18
view this moment from? Spiritual perspective, you know,
1:10:25
I've been spending. So I grew up in a very, very
1:10:31
Vedantic household like my, you know.
1:10:33
I love Venanta, I've studied for for years.
1:10:36
Yeah, you know. And you grew up in Carolina and
1:10:39
Kerala was where I began my what I called my soul quest.
1:10:43
You know, that was the end of 2024.
1:10:47
I watched the documentary Inner Worlds, Outer Worlds out there,
1:10:51
read Proof of Heaven by Evan Alexander.
1:10:54
I'm actually recording him next week.
1:10:57
What did you do in Kerala? Where did you go?
1:10:59
To Colony or somewhere? Would you?
1:11:00
I went to, I went to Cochin. You know, I'm Jewish, so I went
1:11:03
to the oldest synagogue there. I went with our oldest daughter
1:11:08
to an Ari Vedic. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:11:11
Spa type of place. Which was which was really an
1:11:15
amazing way to close out the year Vedanta.
1:11:19
I studied outside of Pune with us, Swamiji Partha Sarathi at
1:11:23
the Vedanta Academy. He, he's very rooted in
1:11:27
humility. Never wanted his name on the
1:11:30
building and the building itself, you know, it's kind of
1:11:34
like an ashram, right? So we're not talking about that
1:11:36
fancy place. It's really, you know, but
1:11:39
Vedanta has really helped me a lot as a leader over the years.
1:11:43
And so, so, so you, you totally get it.
1:11:45
Like, so if you, so I grew up in this very, you know, and then
1:11:50
very Vedantic thing where like you were, it was universal
1:11:53
acceptance. It was love built on our love.
1:11:55
And it was built around, you know, the notion that you're
1:11:58
part of the universal consciousness.
1:12:00
And, you know, I think we could never prove it.
1:12:04
We could never put that into practice in terms of how will
1:12:08
this actually, how will someone understand what is universal
1:12:11
consciousness, right? It's a very hard concept.
1:12:13
And Vedantic education was all about like it was being told
1:12:16
over generations, mostly passed on by orally.
1:12:19
Then you have books like the, the, the Vedas as well as the,
1:12:23
you know, the Bhagavad Gita and some of them that kind of
1:12:26
elucidated it for the regular folks, you know, but now like 1
1:12:30
interesting observation this prominent time is like, you can
1:12:32
model that out and what this will look like, you know, think
1:12:35
about mold book 100 agents having a shared context layer,
1:12:41
right? How do they behave in a world
1:12:43
like that? So I think we have some tools
1:12:46
which I would at some point, like I would love to actually
1:12:48
experiment that and say, how does this play out in a mental
1:12:51
model that we have? Now the reality is we like, you
1:12:54
know, you mentioned brain computer interfaces and stuff
1:12:57
too, right? So we, I don't, I think we have
1:13:01
a lot of data, but we really don't understand how the human
1:13:04
brain works. How does the human consciousness
1:13:06
work? I mean like, I think there's a
1:13:07
lot of arguments around it. Oh, there's there's so many
1:13:10
different theories. Nobody really knows how to
1:13:14
decode consciousness. That's why it's called the hard
1:13:16
problem of consciousness. And it's also called the hard
1:13:19
problem because if you're a materialist who has to grapple
1:13:23
with the miracle, The Big Bang, you have to somehow assume that
1:13:30
consciousness didn't exist until we got to the capability of our
1:13:37
brains being advanced enough. And the dangerous notion about
1:13:42
that throughout throughout time has not just been to to cheapen,
1:13:48
you know, the human experience and, and kind of deny the
1:13:51
existence of the soul. And I, I understand, you know,
1:13:54
how we're, how we're rooted in science and how we're, we're
1:13:57
trained to believe that. But it's also led to, you know,
1:14:01
as, as, as Byron Reese talked about on episode 11, you know,
1:14:06
doctors were doing surgery on babies, assuming that they
1:14:09
didn't have the same type of consciousness as us, you know,
1:14:14
decades ago with no anesthesia, doing surgery on animals.
1:14:19
You know, and now, now we're finding out that animals are
1:14:21
conscious that trees have this ability to communicate via the
1:14:26
mycelium network. We're finding out more and more
1:14:30
of, I'll at least say organic life is conscious and, and, and
1:14:36
as a tree, as conscious as we are.
1:14:38
I don't think so, but. But you know, if you, if you
1:14:41
believe, right, if you believe that there's varying degrees of
1:14:44
consciousness and it is different for different people
1:14:47
versus the universal consciousness that spreads
1:14:49
across it changes your perspective.
1:14:51
But but it's an interesting thing where I grappled with it
1:14:54
personally as an engineer, as a builder, like, you know, like
1:14:57
where's the science behind it? Where's the proof behind it and
1:14:59
stuff. And then I think probably 10
1:15:02
years ago is when I relooked at my spiritual journey and said,
1:15:05
you know, like, OK, let's break this down.
1:15:08
And, and then when you go deeper, and the reason I was
1:15:11
mentioning my earlier, the Vedantic upbringing was about
1:15:17
there was a lot of things in there that you just, you just
1:15:19
have to start with this belief, right?
1:15:22
And one such belief was like, the whole world is a universal
1:15:25
consciousness and everything you see around it, it's Maya, or
1:15:30
like it's the magic, it's the thing that happens.
1:15:32
It's how your brain shapes, how your consciousness, it's a
1:15:35
reflection of you rather than what's out there, right?
1:15:39
How do you start from some place like that?
1:15:41
That was the hardest problem, right?
1:15:42
To the hard problem of consciousness is actually the
1:15:45
hard problem of matter. Because if you assume that
1:15:47
consciousness came first, the matter was the instantiation of
1:15:51
consciousness. That's right, Right.
1:15:53
So it's a very. Derivative from consciousness.
1:15:55
Exactly. So I think we're we're, you
1:15:58
know, and honestly, at some level you're like, none of that
1:16:01
really matters, right. But most of the arguments around
1:16:05
the deeper arguments around that single conundrum of saying,
1:16:08
look, if you assume consciousness exists, all of
1:16:12
these problems, all of the debates that we have, it
1:16:14
actually goes away if you really go that path, right?
1:16:18
But it's hard to prove because now do you, it doesn't, it
1:16:22
doesn't align with signs and the signs that we are actually used
1:16:25
to. So we reframe the problem of
1:16:27
saying, what's the, the hard problem of consciousness because
1:16:30
you're now trying to materialize it, right?
1:16:32
It's so anyway, it's a it's a, it's an interesting area.
1:16:36
But I think all of that's said and done like if you really, if
1:16:39
you take some lessons from Eastern philosophy, if you take
1:16:43
lessons from Burdesan, if you take another thing and it's the
1:16:46
end of the day, if all you're trying to do is like live a good
1:16:50
life, live a life worth living kind of stuff.
1:16:53
These are all inspirations you can take to kind of shape the
1:16:56
way you look at life. I mean, at least that's how I
1:16:58
made peace with it. You know, you know, when you're,
1:17:01
I was really struggling with this in the last 10 years ago.
1:17:04
And I think it's like it gives you tips, it gives you
1:17:07
inspiration to, you know, enjoy the present moment, enjoy this
1:17:12
moment because the only thing anything would happen the moment
1:17:14
after this, right? You know, and then you know.
1:17:17
The eternal present. The eternal present.
1:17:19
Moment that matters I mean I will say that having this
1:17:24
knowledge of you know, from all the ancient spiritual text as
1:17:30
well as from my from my own experiences and I think you've
1:17:34
glimpsed this as well in meditation is that the universe
1:17:40
is deeply rooted in love and connected connectedness.
1:17:44
And I think the reason that matters, you know, Gary Zukov,
1:17:48
when he wrote the Seat of the Soul, he said a lot of our
1:17:51
suffering comes from the five sensory experience, like there's
1:17:56
nothing beyond our five senses. And that can quickly get you
1:17:59
into a Yolo mentality. You only live once.
1:18:04
It can quickly get you into mentality of just worshipping,
1:18:10
you know, whatever the next, you know, material good is, which
1:18:14
never will lead to that happiness.
1:18:16
And the reason it matters in this AI moment is the
1:18:21
intentionality of how we use AI to create abundance for everyone
1:18:27
on the planet really matters. So if we embrace that Love
1:18:31
Actually is our existence, then we are going to shape the use of
1:18:38
AI in a way where it's a love first shaping.
1:18:42
And when scarcity melts away and we truly have abundance for
1:18:49
everybody on the planet, what's left?
1:18:51
What's left is deep human connection and the deep embrace
1:18:56
of love. So true.
1:18:58
So I. Mean realizing we're 99.9%
1:19:01
genetically. Identical it is in in it is
1:19:05
incredible. I think you know, a lot of the
1:19:07
it's it's an interesting when I when I listen to a few other
1:19:11
episodes and you you explored this really deeply as well.
1:19:15
It's interesting to see like, you know, look, do you need
1:19:18
abundance to get to a point to think like that or thinking like
1:19:22
that? Will that lead to the abundance
1:19:24
that we want to get? Right?
1:19:26
That's a. That's a great, great frame in,
1:19:28
right? It's a what?
1:19:29
Yeah. Exactly.
1:19:31
And I think, I think, and I and you, I don't think we'll ever
1:19:34
find out. We'll we'll have to try both.
1:19:36
We'll have to. But I, I, I like what you, what
1:19:38
you said, which is the intentionality in which we look
1:19:41
at this moment in time and say, look, I mean, you can do
1:19:44
anything right now, but then you have this amazing capability
1:19:48
called AI. And you know, there's one part
1:19:50
of civilization or, or, or the universe is suffering.
1:19:55
If you, you now have the tools that you you're almost like God
1:19:58
with AI in your hands, you can go solve that.
1:20:02
That is love. So if you can actually embrace
1:20:04
you and embark on that thing, a very capitalist journey to go do
1:20:08
that. But then that leads to a path of
1:20:10
love to go solve the larger problem.
1:20:12
I think it's solved it so far. I think to me that also is means
1:20:15
like the the. The abundance mindset is
1:20:19
ingrained in that action that you're taking there too, right?
1:20:22
So I think you know, you're right.
1:20:24
There is there is only love. There is, you know, there is
1:20:26
nothing else. Everything else is just blends
1:20:29
and melts away. If you really take that framing
1:20:32
of saying this is 1, you know, one giant thread, you know, call
1:20:37
it soul, call it consciousness, whatever, but it's the one giant
1:20:41
thread that pulls it all together.
1:20:43
And, and we have an amazing wave that's going to raise all boats
1:20:47
right now. So yeah.
1:20:48
Yeah, I guess The Beatles said it right.
1:20:49
Love Is All you need. Love Is All you need.
1:20:51
That's right. And so it sounds like you're
1:20:53
pretty confident we're going to make it to this age of abundance
1:20:56
for all. I am, I, I, I really am.
1:20:59
I think, you know, and, and, and it may be bumpy and it may, we
1:21:05
may get to places where we'll question ourselves whether we're
1:21:07
on that right path. But I think, you know,
1:21:10
generally, I mean, like all it takes at that time is everybody
1:21:12
look back and read history and then, you know, you'll make it
1:21:15
right. So right.
1:21:16
But I'm pretty confident we'll we'll make it there.
1:21:19
Well, I love your heart and I love the fact that thank you,
1:21:22
you're on the podcast and you're off doing this amazingly
1:21:26
ambitious venture with Autonomize AI.
1:21:28
You're going to do tons and tons of good that's going to continue
1:21:31
accelerate and schools that's happening here in Austin.
1:21:35
Thank you. Thanks a lot for having.
1:21:36
Me, yeah, really appreciate. It thank you.
1:21:39
Thanks so much brother. So thanks everybody for tuning
1:21:42
in to Love Conquers Fear. Next episode up is going to be
1:21:47
Evan Alexander. I am so so excited about him
1:21:50
coming on the podcast. Can't wait to host him here at
1:21:54
our home. His book Proof of Heaven really
1:21:58
moved me a lot. If you haven't listened to that
1:22:01
one on Audible, the awe, the humility in his voice and just
1:22:06
the arc of the whole journey that he went on where he saw
1:22:11
what was behind the veil is really, really beautiful.
1:22:14
His second book, A Map of Heaven is an amazing journey about post
1:22:22
proof of heaven, how he decoded reality, you know, studying a
1:22:26
lot of ancient scripture and seeing that there was this
1:22:30
synchronicity between them all and what he actually
1:22:34
experienced. So I'm really excited that that
1:22:37
episode's coming up. That's a that's a dream come
1:22:40
true for me in this love conquer sphere project, which really is
1:22:45
my soul song. You know, this is my love letter
1:22:47
to humanity. And to see him show up for that
1:22:51
really means a lot to me. You know, I was I read that
1:22:53
book, as you just heard, with Ganache my mind, and then I very
1:22:56
quickly went to A Map of Heaven and also read that one while I
1:23:00
was in the Carolina. Thanks again for all the love
1:23:03
you're giving me and all the shares.
1:23:08
You know, I'm self funding this and the impact that it's having
1:23:12
out there because of all of you is really a true gift.
1:23:16
So thank you.