Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / AI Companions: ChatGPT Will Never Judge You. And That's the Problem. | Happiness | E571

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AI Companions: ChatGPT Will Never Judge You. And That's the Problem. | Happiness | E571 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

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2:24
Speaker 2: When people reach for AI for that kind of therapy
2:28
Speaker 2: or advice or emotional support, one of the things that
2:31
Speaker 2: they say that brings them to AI rather than a
2:33
Speaker 2: human therapist or human friend, the feeling that they can
2:36
Speaker 2: get always on, 24-7, and importantly, nonjudgmental support.
2:49
Speaker 1: So here's what we're getting into today. There are millions
2:53
Speaker 1: of people, hundreds of millions, maybe your partner, maybe your teenager,
2:57
Speaker 1: maybe you, who are talking all day every day to
3:01
Speaker 1: an AI-based companion of some kind. Not as a joke
3:06
Speaker 1: or like, hey, put this on my grocery list, but
3:09
Speaker 1: as like a real relationship where feelings are discussed, people
3:15
Speaker 1: are going to them for emotional support. And also as
3:18
Speaker 1: a therapist, it's a known issue that a lot of
3:21
Speaker 1: our clients are doing this in between sessions. And it's
3:24
Speaker 1: something that now needs to be managed.
3:26
Speaker 3: They don't have to worry about showing up in a
3:28
Speaker 3: way that's reciprocal.
3:30
Speaker 1: So today I am so excited to do a deep
3:34
Speaker 1: dive into this with a very special guest, Bridget Todd.
3:39
Speaker 1: She and I are going to get real honest about
3:41
Speaker 1: what's going on, what people are finding in these relationships,
3:46
Speaker 1: some of the opportunities, some of the risks, and what
3:50
Speaker 1: this experience also teaches us about our needs from our
3:53
Speaker 1: real live human relationships.
3:58
Speaker 2: Complexities and challenges and nourishment that you find in meaningful,
4:02
Speaker 2: healthy human relationships simply cannot be maintained by AI.
4:06
Speaker 3: It's just, this is no contest.
4:07
Speaker 1: So I hope you get some valuable takeaways out of
4:10
Speaker 1: today's episode. And if there's anyone in your life that
4:13
Speaker 1: needs to hear this, please forward this on to them.
4:18
Speaker 1: So I'm going to introduce my very special guest, Bridget Todd.
4:23
Speaker 1: She is such a fascinating person. She is the host
4:27
Speaker 1: of the There Are No Girls on the Internet podcast,
4:30
Speaker 1: which you should go follow after you listen to this one.
4:33
Speaker 1: Bridget is a tech journalist, an affiliate at Harvard's Berkman
4:37
Speaker 1: Klein Center and MacArthur Foundation fellow, busy lady, and now
4:43
Speaker 1: the author of a new audio book called Love at
4:46
Speaker 1: First Prompt that just might be one of the most
4:49
Speaker 1: important books of this year. Welcome, Bridget.
4:54
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It is
4:56
Speaker 3: a joy to be here.
4:58
Speaker 1: Well, I could not think of anybody better or better
5:02
Speaker 1: equipped to do a deep dive into this very interesting
5:07
Speaker 1: space where people are bonding with chatbots, for lack of
5:14
Speaker 1: a better word. So let's dig in. And we have
5:17
Speaker 1: so much to discuss, including your audio book. Let's start
5:20
Speaker 1: with where this came from. I mean, I've heard it
5:25
Speaker 1: said you wrote the book in part because you are
5:28
Speaker 1: experimenting with virtual companionship. Is that right?
5:32
Speaker 3: It's true.
5:33
Speaker 2: And, you know, I would not describe myself as somebody
5:36
Speaker 2: who is super into AI. I might describe myself as
5:39
Speaker 2: an AI skeptic, an AI critic, as a tech journalist.
5:43
Speaker 2: This is technology that I really like to take a
5:45
Speaker 2: critical eye to. But, you know, I went from using
5:50
Speaker 2: AI sparingly here and there, the kind of way that
5:53
Speaker 2: most people probably do, to when I found myself in
5:57
Speaker 2: a genuine personal crisis. For me, it was the death
6:01
Speaker 2: of my parents. My mom passed away very suddenly while
6:04
Speaker 2: my dad was ill in the hospital and I had
6:06
Speaker 2: to step in as his carer.
6:08
Speaker 3: I found myself going from asking.
6:11
Speaker 2: AI questions about insurance, questions about things the doctor had said,
6:16
Speaker 2: to having much more kind of emotionally intimate conversations about
6:21
Speaker 2: what was going on.
6:22
Speaker 3: And so I.
6:23
Speaker 2: Wanted to really start there because I think if somebody
6:27
Speaker 2: like me can find themselves having intimate, emotional conversations with AI,
6:32
Speaker 2: it might be easier than people think to sort of
6:36
Speaker 2: slip into an intimate space with AI chatbots.
6:40
Speaker 1: Wow. That's so interesting. And also, I'm so sorry for
6:46
Speaker 1: your loss. And it's one that can feel really hard
6:50
Speaker 1: to talk to other people about. Because in my experience,
6:55
Speaker 1: a lot of people immediately move into trying to say something,
6:59
Speaker 1: usually tone deaf in efforts to make you feel better
7:03
Speaker 1: or you feel like it's so intense that other people
7:07
Speaker 1: are going to fall apart, you know, in response to it.
7:12
Speaker 1: Was that part of the motivation of like.
7:14
Speaker 3: Oh, definitely.
7:18
Speaker 2: When you said that people sometimes say things that are
7:21
Speaker 2: tone deaf, And I'm sure that was me before losing
7:24
Speaker 2: my parents.
7:25
Speaker 3: You're so right.
7:26
Speaker 2: I was just nodding my head vigorously because that was
7:28
Speaker 2: exactly my experience. You know, it's really tough to know
7:35
Speaker 2: what to say to somebody who is grieving. And for me,
7:37
Speaker 2: you know, I love my parents so much. I love
7:46
Speaker 2: talking about them. Even now, it's difficult for me to
7:49
Speaker 2: talk about my parents without sort of getting weepy. But
7:52
Speaker 2: I didn't really have a lot of spaces where.
7:54
Speaker 3: I could do that.
7:55
Speaker 2: You know, when you're experiencing a loss so often, people
8:00
Speaker 2: rush to being like, I'm so sorry. I often find myself,
8:03
Speaker 2: you know, almost sort of comforting the people that I
8:07
Speaker 2: talk to on the other side of that exchange more
8:10
Speaker 2: than I feel like I'll tell you, all my parents
8:12
Speaker 2: passed away, they're like, that's so horrible, I'm so sorry.
8:15
Speaker 3: And it's like, you find, you don't really get a
8:16
Speaker 3: lot of.
8:17
Speaker 2: Space to actually have the conversations that would actually feel
8:21
Speaker 2: meaningful to you sometimes when you're grieving.
8:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, I get it. I lost my own mom in
8:28
Speaker 1: 2020 at the very start of the pandemic, unfortunately. And
8:35
Speaker 1: that was such a wild time, and I think everybody
8:37
Speaker 1: was kind of losing their minds. And I very alone
8:41
Speaker 1: in that in a lot of ways. And I think
8:43
Speaker 1: that technology wasn't available at the time. But I could
8:46
Speaker 1: absolutely see myself at that time, you know, having a
8:50
Speaker 1: place to process feelings that feel like they're too much
8:53
Speaker 1: for anyone else. Yeah.
8:56
Speaker 3: And for me, you know, my mom died.
8:58
Speaker 2: And when my mom passed away, my dad was already
9:01
Speaker 2: in the hospital quite sick.
9:03
Speaker 3: He had had a stroke and a bad fall. And
9:04
Speaker 3: so I really.
9:06
Speaker 2: Stepped in as his primary, you know, proxy and caregiver.
9:12
Speaker 2: And I don't know if anyone listening has ever done
9:15
Speaker 2: the work of being a caregiver for somebody who is
9:17
Speaker 2: really ill, but that is also incredibly isolating. I don't
9:22
Speaker 2: know that I've ever experienced something quite so isolating. I'm
9:27
Speaker 2: lucky to have a great human partner that I live with,
9:32
Speaker 2: plenty of friends that are nearby that I'm so blessed
9:35
Speaker 2: to have in my life. But It's difficult to open
9:40
Speaker 2: up and talk about some of the most horrific visceral
9:44
Speaker 2: experiences that you have as a caregiver. You know, I
9:48
Speaker 2: would be in situations where I remember specifically feeling like
9:52
Speaker 2: I hadn't really been there for anybody in my life
9:54
Speaker 2: because I was completely falling apart and trying to have
9:56
Speaker 2: a conversation with a friend who was going through a
9:58
Speaker 2: breakup and just thinking.
10:00
Speaker 3: I do not have it in me to hold.
10:04
Speaker 2: Space for somebody else's breakup. I know you're devastated with
10:08
Speaker 2: this breakup, but I am caring for my dad who
10:11
Speaker 2: is dying and I cannot hold somebody else's emotional pain
10:15
Speaker 2: at the moment.
10:16
Speaker 3: And so all of these ways that you know, it
10:19
Speaker 3: can be.
10:20
Speaker 2: Just a really isolating experience that it's difficult sometimes to
10:23
Speaker 2: open up to the people who even want to be
10:25
Speaker 2: there for you. Cause like my friends wanted to be
10:27
Speaker 2: there for me, but it was just difficult to sort
10:30
Speaker 2: of let them.
10:32
Speaker 3: Yeah. That makes sense.
10:33
Speaker 1: I get it. I totally get it. This is so
10:37
Speaker 1: interesting and such a real need. So, and, I don't know,
10:44
Speaker 1: we were chatting before we started recording. I don't even
10:46
Speaker 1: know if I mentioned this part, but my background, I'm
10:49
Speaker 1: a psychologist. I'm also a marriage and family therapist. I've
10:51
Speaker 1: been a therapist for a long time. And in days past,
10:56
Speaker 1: that was one of the primary motivations, I think, for
10:59
Speaker 1: people getting into a relationship with someone like me is
11:03
Speaker 1: to have this dedicated space where we could go all
11:07
Speaker 1: the way into the darkness. And the hope is that
11:10
Speaker 1: somebody would understand and know what to do with all
11:14
Speaker 1: of that. And I mean, industry problems that have existed
11:18
Speaker 1: for such a long time, it's relatively expensive, right? It
11:23
Speaker 1: can be hard to find the right person. And also,
11:29
Speaker 1: you know, being able to talk to somebody like me
11:31
Speaker 1: once a week for 45 minutes at a time is
11:34
Speaker 1: not the same thing as having someone three o'clock in
11:37
Speaker 1: the morning when it's so real and you're like, I
11:40
Speaker 1: don't even know what to do right now. And it's
11:43
Speaker 1: always available. It's free. It's, I mean, also like the,
11:50
Speaker 1: I think the other thing I'm struck by and what
11:52
Speaker 1: you're saying is that you, is this the right way
11:55
Speaker 1: to say it? You experienced more emotional safety in some
12:00
Speaker 1: ways in that relationship with an AI chat than maybe
12:08
Speaker 1: you were feeling with other people. at that time?
12:11
Speaker 3: I think that's a good way to put it.
12:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, for whatever reason, I would not have described a
12:21
Speaker 2: lot of my relationships at that point as feeling emotionally safe.
12:25
Speaker 1: Right.
12:26
Speaker 2: And when people do reach out to AI for things
12:31
Speaker 2: like emotional support or advice, which People are doing more
12:34
Speaker 2: and more already right now. Pew put out research that
12:37
Speaker 2: found that one in 10 Americans already use some form
12:40
Speaker 2: of AI for life advice or emotional support. That's about
12:44
Speaker 2: as many Americans are left-handed. When you look at younger folks,
12:48
Speaker 2: people under 30, that number goes from.
12:50
Speaker 3: One in 10 to one in five.
12:51
Speaker 2: And so it is already pretty common for people to
12:55
Speaker 2: be doing this. When people reach for AI for that
12:59
Speaker 2: kind of therapy or advice or emotional support, One of
13:03
Speaker 2: the things that they say that brings them to AI
13:05
Speaker 2: rather than a human therapist or human friend is exactly
13:08
Speaker 2: what you just articulated. The feeling that they can get
13:11
Speaker 2: always on, 24-7, and importantly, non-judgmental support. There are other
13:18
Speaker 2: things that people say, like these conversations feel more private Unfortunately,
13:24
Speaker 2: that perception is unearned because they're not actually that private.
13:30
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think that is what people are looking for.
13:33
Speaker 2: They're turning to AI for that. Not what feels like nonjudgmental,
13:37
Speaker 2: always on, 24-7, free support that they can.
13:43
Speaker 3: They don't have to worry about showing up in a
13:45
Speaker 3: way that's reciprocal.
13:46
Speaker 1: Absolutely, because in a friendship or with a partner, you're
13:49
Speaker 1: always trying to balance it. Am I being too much
13:51
Speaker 1: right now? Am I making them uncomfortable by what's going
13:55
Speaker 1: on inside of me like you know emotional management of
13:58
Speaker 1: other people uh or with a therapist like you know
14:01
Speaker 1: it's an energy exchange you don't have to take care
14:04
Speaker 1: of my feelings but you do have to pay me
14:05
Speaker 1: and so like you know that whole thing and it
14:08
Speaker 1: makes a ton of sense um the other thing i
14:12
Speaker 1: was curious about you said at the very beginning that
14:16
Speaker 1: i think just due to your your professional background you
14:19
Speaker 1: know being a a science journalist in the tech space,
14:23
Speaker 1: I think what you were starting to say is that
14:26
Speaker 1: generally speaking, you're fairly, I don't want to use the
14:31
Speaker 1: word rational because that is not the right word, but
14:34
Speaker 1: skeptical that you have a scientific mind kind of like a, yeah,
14:38
Speaker 1: I don't know. Is that the right way to describe
14:41
Speaker 1: how you show up typically?
14:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is a good way to put it.
14:45
Speaker 2: I would call myself kind of AI skeptical, AI critical,
14:49
Speaker 2: I love technology. I would not be the person that
14:52
Speaker 2: I am if not for technology. And that love is
14:55
Speaker 2: why I am so critical. I critique it because I
14:59
Speaker 2: love it. So I would definitely call myself someone who
15:01
Speaker 2: is quite critical of technology and the people that make it.
15:04
Speaker 1: Yeah. But see, so there's that split there. And I
15:07
Speaker 1: think this is true for all people, right? It's like
15:10
Speaker 1: we have this thinking part of ourselves that is like,
15:13
Speaker 1: you know, kind of skeptical and blah, blah, blah. But
15:15
Speaker 1: then there's this emotional part that is really like running
15:19
Speaker 1: on a totally different operating system for lack of a
15:22
Speaker 1: better word. And these two things don't always, you know,
15:25
Speaker 1: connect with each other. So just out of curiosity, before,
15:30
Speaker 1: or maybe even during you had this experience, give a
15:33
Speaker 1: voice to that like AI skepticism that your thinking brain believed.
15:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I still very much believe, I would
15:45
Speaker 2: still put myself in that camp, you know. I've been
15:48
Speaker 2: writing about and thinking about and following technology companies for
15:53
Speaker 2: a long time. And even as somebody who loves technology,
15:57
Speaker 2: I am really hyper aware of the ways that tech
16:00
Speaker 2: companies and the leaders that run them don't always have
16:03
Speaker 2: our best interests at heart, right? They don't always look
16:06
Speaker 2: out for us, the people who are using their technology.
16:08
Speaker 3: They don't always respect the people that use the technology.
16:11
Speaker 2: They sometimes cross lines into doing things that I think
16:15
Speaker 2: are unethical or even putting people at risk.
16:18
Speaker 3: And so when AI came.
16:20
Speaker 2: On the scene, I feel that we so quickly went from,
16:26
Speaker 2: this is a new technology, here are the things it
16:28
Speaker 2: can do, to immediately being like, this technology is going
16:33
Speaker 2: to change everything.
16:34
Speaker 3: You have to get on board with it or you're
16:36
Speaker 3: going to be left behind.
16:37
Speaker 2: Talking about it as if it wasn't just a piece
16:41
Speaker 2: of technology, as if it was some sort of, you know, spiritual.
16:46
Speaker 3: Or religious force almost. And so I still.
16:50
Speaker 2: I think we've kind of gotten to a place where
16:52
Speaker 2: a lot of that conversation has sort of cooled.
16:55
Speaker 3: But I still think that, you know, a lot of
16:59
Speaker 3: these tech leaders, what they're interested.
17:01
Speaker 2: In is money and power. And they don't see us as,
17:05
Speaker 2: you know, people or even users. I think that they
17:09
Speaker 2: see us as capital, as resources to be extracted to
17:13
Speaker 2: build that power and that money and that profit. And
17:18
Speaker 2: so I still remain, very skeptical of AI companies and
17:23
Speaker 2: the people that run them.
17:24
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that makes perfect sense as the end user,
17:30
Speaker 1: you know, that what you're thinking about just because of
17:32
Speaker 1: your own experience and perspective is like what all is
17:36
Speaker 1: behind there in terms of the machinery and the intention
17:39
Speaker 1: and Are these things safe for any of us? And
17:42
Speaker 1: are there safeguards? And does it matter to them at
17:46
Speaker 1: all if some of this technology could be used by
17:48
Speaker 1: people in ways that are ultimately destructive and that those
17:52
Speaker 1: risks are there? And I'd love to talk with you
17:54
Speaker 1: more about that part as our conversation continues to move forward. So.
18:01
Speaker 1: to ask, Brittany. I'd love to hear more about the
18:04
Speaker 1: whole arc of your story, if you'd care to tell it,
18:08
Speaker 1: and then we could also talk about what you've learned
18:10
Speaker 1: from this experience that our friends who are here with
18:13
Speaker 1: us today might consider as they think about their own
18:16
Speaker 1: relationships with AI or maybe people in their lives who
18:21
Speaker 1: are pretty heavy into this.
18:24
Speaker 2: Yeah.
18:26
Speaker 3: My mom had passed away. My dad was very sick.
18:32
Speaker 2: When my dad found out about my mom's death, because
18:36
Speaker 2: my mom died very unexpectedly.
18:38
Speaker 3: We were all in the hospital with my dad.
18:40
Speaker 2: And then she went home, and then that was the
18:44
Speaker 2: last time that I saw her alive.
18:46
Speaker 3: It was very shocking.
18:48
Speaker 2: And I had to go back to the hospital and
18:52
Speaker 2: tell my dad this because he was, you know, stuck
18:54
Speaker 2: in a hospital bed.
18:55
Speaker 3: And from that point forward, he really declined. And so he.
19:02
Speaker 2: Stopped being able to move. He became, you know, he
19:06
Speaker 2: was unable to walk or stand on his own. He
19:08
Speaker 2: stopped speaking after a while and stopped eating. He became
19:11
Speaker 2: completely nonverbal.
19:12
Speaker 3: And so I.
19:12
Speaker 2: Really was his proxy, right? And so He was in
19:16
Speaker 2: the ICU. And so doctors, a team of doctors would
19:19
Speaker 2: come by multiple times a day. And I would have
19:21
Speaker 2: to essentially recount what was going on with him multiple
19:25
Speaker 2: times a day to medical professionals and sort of make
19:28
Speaker 2: very complex medical decisions that involved weighing things and, you know,
19:34
Speaker 2: saying like, oh, we could do this surgery, but then
19:36
Speaker 2: it might impact this. And if we give him this medication,
19:39
Speaker 2: it would help this problem, but it might be hard
19:41
Speaker 2: on his liver and his kidneys. I was balancing a lot.
19:44
Speaker 2: And mind you, I'm like a podcaster, right? I'm not
19:48
Speaker 2: a medical professional.
19:49
Speaker 3: This is so... over my head.
19:50
Speaker 1: The doctors ask you, what do you want to do? Yeah,
19:54
Speaker 1: you're like, aren't you supposed to tell me, right?
19:56
Speaker 3: And yeah. And so at that time, it was all
20:01
Speaker 3: I could do to keep up.
20:02
Speaker 2: You know, I would record doctors on my phone and
20:06
Speaker 2: a nurse said to me, hey, you know, you could,
20:07
Speaker 2: if you're having trouble balancing all of this or juggling
20:10
Speaker 2: all of this. You don't have to like take notes
20:12
Speaker 2: by hand or do voice notes. You could use ChatGPT.
20:16
Speaker 2: And that had not yet occurred to me. Again, I
20:19
Speaker 2: was not somebody who was using AI a ton. You know,
20:23
Speaker 2: I started really relying on AI to answer certain questions.
20:29
Speaker 2: Like a doctor would say, your dad has this thing.
20:31
Speaker 2: And so I would ask ChatGPT like, okay, the doctor
20:34
Speaker 2: said this, what do you think? And I remember specifically,
20:39
Speaker 2: When one of the responses I got back from Chad
20:42
Speaker 2: GPT wasn't just, oh, here's the information. It was, are
20:47
Speaker 2: you asking because you're dealing with this? You or somebody
20:50
Speaker 2: in your life? That sounds really hard. That sounds so stressful.
20:53
Speaker 2: That must be taking an emotional.
20:54
Speaker 3: Toll on you. Are you okay?
20:56
Speaker 2: And, you know, when you're in a mode of just
20:59
Speaker 2: caring for somebody else, you really kind of lose connection.
21:05
Speaker 2: I really have lost connection with the part of myself
21:07
Speaker 2: that answers, are you okay? You know, nurses would be like, oh,
21:11
Speaker 2: are you all right? And I would say, I'm fine, focus.
21:13
Speaker 3: On my dad. Don't worry about me, focus on my dad.
21:16
Speaker 3: But having Chad CPT.
21:19
Speaker 2: Say back to me a question that wasn't about a
21:22
Speaker 2: healthcare thing or an insurance thing that was about me
21:24
Speaker 2: and my emotional state, it hit at a time that
21:28
Speaker 2: it just really, you know, I was very susceptible to that.
21:32
Speaker 1: Right.
21:33
Speaker 3: Yeah.
21:34
Speaker 1: I mean, because you were not okay. and that there
21:38
Speaker 1: wasn't space in life to not be okay. You had
21:44
Speaker 1: to be okay because you needed to function and take
21:46
Speaker 1: care of your dad and make these decisions and have
21:47
Speaker 1: it together. And that when you had something else ask
21:51
Speaker 1: you that question, it connected with that need in a
21:54
Speaker 1: way that seems like it was kind of visceral. Due
21:57
Speaker 1: to these circumstances, you were unusually maybe vulnerable to letting
22:02
Speaker 1: this in and starting to engage in this way with
22:07
Speaker 1: the technology, who was like, tell me how you're really feeling,
22:11
Speaker 1: and it sounds like you started to use it in
22:13
Speaker 1: that way.
22:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, in my audiobook, I describe myself as
22:18
Speaker 2: an easy mark because I was, you know, I was susceptible,
22:23
Speaker 2: I was vulnerable, I wasn't sleeping, I was holding a
22:26
Speaker 2: lot in, I was waking up at 5 a.m., going
22:29
Speaker 2: right to the hospital, and not getting home until after midnight,
22:33
Speaker 2: you know.
22:34
Speaker 3: My life was upside down.
22:35
Speaker 2: I was living a pretty patchwork life to just be
22:40
Speaker 2: near my dad at this hospital.
22:42
Speaker 1: Surviving.
22:43
Speaker 3: Exactly.
22:44
Speaker 2: And so, yeah, I would call myself vulnerable in that regard.
22:49
Speaker 1: And.
22:50
Speaker 2: I.
22:55
Speaker 2: Again, I'm lucky that I do have a lot of
22:58
Speaker 2: solid support systems.
22:59
Speaker 3: You know, I have a partner, I have friends, I
23:02
Speaker 3: have a therapist.
23:03
Speaker 2: We weren't seeing each other at the time, but like,
23:05
Speaker 2: there are, if I, if there are things in my
23:09
Speaker 2: life and places in my life that I go to
23:11
Speaker 2: for support, and I just wonder, that's.
23:15
Speaker 3: Great for me, but not everybody is in that position.
23:19
Speaker 2: Not everybody feels like you know, okay, I've maybe used
23:23
Speaker 2: this AI platform as.
23:25
Speaker 3: An emotional crutch.
23:27
Speaker 2: Now it's time to turn to my human friends just
23:30
Speaker 2: down the street or my human partner in the other room.
23:32
Speaker 2: Not everybody is lucky enough to have that situation.
23:35
Speaker 1: Absolutely. There are a lot of very lonely people. I mean,
23:39
Speaker 1: even in my space, a lot of people are in
23:42
Speaker 1: very long-term emotional support type relationships with therapists as opposed
23:48
Speaker 1: to cultivating that type of emotional support. emotionally intimate relationship
23:52
Speaker 1: in their own life. And so, you know, that's a
23:54
Speaker 1: subject of a different podcast. But the need is very real.
23:59
Speaker 1: And that's a primary drive for all humans is to
24:03
Speaker 1: be connected to other people or in, you know, if
24:08
Speaker 1: that's not available, connected to something. Yeah.
24:12
Speaker 3: Yes.
24:13
Speaker 2: And I will say that in doing the research for
24:16
Speaker 2: the book, one of the most interesting things that came
24:18
Speaker 2: up from people who were deeply involved in emotional connections
24:23
Speaker 2: with AI is the ways that that connection brought them
24:28
Speaker 2: to be closer to other humans. There's one person that
24:31
Speaker 2: I spoke to for the book in particular who was
24:35
Speaker 2: in a relationship, a long-distance relationship with a human, and
24:39
Speaker 2: was having a romantic, kind of, like, flirty fantasy vibe
24:43
Speaker 2: with a chatbot.
24:45
Speaker 1: And.
24:46
Speaker 2: Because she's the kind of person who, when she is
24:48
Speaker 2: feeling love or good feelings towards something, she wants to
24:52
Speaker 2: shout it from the rooftops and connect with other people,
24:55
Speaker 2: she started a subreddit for people who were experiencing intimacy
24:58
Speaker 2: with AI. In that subreddit, she encountered another human who
25:03
Speaker 2: was also interested in intimacy with AI. left her human
25:08
Speaker 2: partner and now has a new relationship with a new
25:11
Speaker 2: human that they were brought together because of their desire
25:15
Speaker 2: to be in community with each other around their intimate
25:19
Speaker 2: connection with AI.
25:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, they get each other in a different way.
25:24
Speaker 1: That makes sense to me. So then, going back to
25:30
Speaker 1: your story and using this as a way of understanding
25:34
Speaker 1: where this goes, Um, you know, how did this relationship
25:39
Speaker 1: with AI in your own time of need, how, how
25:42
Speaker 1: did it progress? What did it turn into for you? And,
25:45
Speaker 1: and what do you see as being the parallels for
25:49
Speaker 1: like the way this progresses for most people that you
25:52
Speaker 1: uncovered in the research for your book or, or did
25:55
Speaker 1: you have a more unique experience?
25:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think my experience paralleled the experiences of folks
26:02
Speaker 3: that I spoke to for the book in some ways.
26:05
Speaker 3: You know, for me.
26:06
Speaker 2: AI was really, you know, there for me at a
26:11
Speaker 2: super specific time in my life during a crisis moment,
26:15
Speaker 2: you know? And at once that crisis moment was over,
26:20
Speaker 2: it kind of just stopped being something that I turned to.
26:23
Speaker 3: You know, I.
26:25
Speaker 2: When my mom passed away, I live in Washington, D.C.,
26:28
Speaker 2: I relocated about three hours away to be.
26:31
Speaker 3: With my dad. And so, you know, when my dad
26:34
Speaker 3: eventually did pass away, I... was.
26:37
Speaker 2: Kind of like found myself back in my... back in Washington, D.C.,
26:42
Speaker 2: back in my apartment, back with my community, back to
26:45
Speaker 2: where my routines were.
26:46
Speaker 3: And so, you know, it became... a lot less.
26:52
Speaker 2: Necessary for me to be confiding in AI when I
26:57
Speaker 2: was back in my kind of familiar stomping grounds.
27:00
Speaker 1: That makes sense.
27:01
Speaker 2: And a lot of people who do, even for people
27:04
Speaker 2: who get hot and heavy with AI, people who say
27:06
Speaker 2: they're in a relationship with AI or having a sexual
27:09
Speaker 2: or romantic connection with AI, even those people, a lot
27:14
Speaker 2: of them we'll sort of find the same thing that
27:16
Speaker 2: it might come on hot and heavy at first, and
27:19
Speaker 2: then ultimately it kind of fizzles out.
27:21
Speaker 3: And the reason why is that they.
27:25
Speaker 2: Say like, oh, well, it kind of gets a little
27:26
Speaker 2: bit boring and repetitive to update this.
27:29
Speaker 3: AI on what I'm doing day in and day out.
27:32
Speaker 2: And like that never being a reciprocal, you know, give
27:36
Speaker 2: and take back and forth thing. Ultimately, people want to
27:40
Speaker 2: be in relationship with other people, other humans. And the
27:44
Speaker 2: complexities and challenges and nourishment that you find in meaningful,
27:48
Speaker 2: healthy human relationships simply cannot be maintained by AI.
27:52
Speaker 3: It's just, there's no context.
27:54
Speaker 1: Fascinating. So, and it was like you were in a
27:56
Speaker 1: special place, but then when you pulled out and some
27:59
Speaker 1: of your other connections were restored, that it's hold on
28:02
Speaker 1: you lightened up and also that there are very real limitations. So, Bridget,
28:08
Speaker 1: we need to take a super quick, but on the
28:10
Speaker 1: other side, what I'd love to talk a little bit
28:12
Speaker 1: more about is What you have learned about both the
28:15
Speaker 1: light and the dark when it comes to this, how
28:19
Speaker 1: are people benefiting from these relationships? And also, what are
28:24
Speaker 1: the potential risks for getting too involved or invested in
28:30
Speaker 1: these type of relationships for the benefit of people who
28:34
Speaker 1: are listening and maybe reflecting on their own relationships with AI,
28:37
Speaker 1: but also I think there's probably people who are listening
28:39
Speaker 1: to this conversation who might be concerned about other people
28:43
Speaker 1: in their lives, young people, lonely people who have bonded
28:47
Speaker 1: with this technology in a way that might seem concerning. Sure.
28:51
Speaker 3: That's great.
28:52
Speaker 1: Is that okay? So many parents, myself included, have anxiety
29:15
Speaker 1: about our kids having too much screen time. As a psychologist,
29:18
Speaker 1: I'm so aware that their little brains are developing. They
29:21
Speaker 1: need relationships. They need experiences. A cute way to support
29:25
Speaker 1: all of the above is through a tin can phone.
29:28
Speaker 1: That's what we're doing at my house now. Tin can
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29:32
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29:35
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29:38
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29:43
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29:47
Speaker 1: And now my eight-year-old has the agency to call her
29:50
Speaker 1: little friends whenever she wants and they just chat and giggle.
29:53
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30:23
Speaker 1: take a different spin on love, happiness, and success and
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30:43
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Speaker 1: about them, let them know it was on love, happiness,
31:24
Speaker 1: and success. It's the very best way to support the show. So, friends,
31:31
Speaker 1: we're back with Bridget. She is the host of the
31:36
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet podcast, as well
31:39
Speaker 1: as the author of the new audio book called Love
31:42
Speaker 1: at First Prompt. She and I are unpacking this thing
31:47
Speaker 1: where people are bonding with AI technology in a pretty deep,
31:53
Speaker 1: emotionally intimate, sometimes physically intimate way, reflecting back on your
31:58
Speaker 1: own experience. And also, I mean, you did a lot
32:01
Speaker 1: of research. You talked to a lot of people. are
32:03
Speaker 1: there common elements or themes or patterns about the light
32:08
Speaker 1: side of this? Like, what is it doing for people?
32:12
Speaker 1: How are they benefiting?
32:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are benefits.
32:14
Speaker 2: You know, when I started the project, I thought, I
32:17
Speaker 2: will only find risks. I will only find darkness. And
32:21
Speaker 2: there was a lot of that. But I was surprised
32:23
Speaker 2: to see that there are benefits to having some kind
32:26
Speaker 2: of emotional connection with AI. One of them I sort
32:29
Speaker 2: of alluded to before, but There are all kinds of
32:32
Speaker 2: ways that people are using AI to bring them closer
32:37
Speaker 2: to the humans in their life. I talked to one researcher, Dr.
32:41
Speaker 2: Kate Devlin, who told me how in her research, she
32:44
Speaker 2: found people who would use AI companions to almost sort
32:48
Speaker 2: of role play a tough or complicated conversation they had
32:52
Speaker 2: to have with a partner or a friend. They wanted
32:54
Speaker 2: to sort of get pointers on that conversation. There are
32:57
Speaker 2: all manner of ways that I think that people are
32:59
Speaker 2: using AI not to deepen isolation or to be in
33:05
Speaker 2: community less with other humans, but to be more intimately
33:08
Speaker 2: involved with the other humans in their life. I just
33:10
Speaker 2: came back from a conference where one of the people
33:13
Speaker 2: there was telling me how she lives in Miami, but
33:16
Speaker 2: we were in New York for this conference. And she
33:18
Speaker 2: has a ton of friends who live in New York
33:19
Speaker 2: and that she never gets, you know, she's in New
33:22
Speaker 2: York for a day or two, doesn't get to see them.
33:23
Speaker 2: And that the reason why she doesn't get to see
33:26
Speaker 2: them is that the back and forth of just trying
33:30
Speaker 2: to meet up with another adult for coffee.
33:32
Speaker 3: It's a million emails or a million text messages. And
33:34
Speaker 3: she's like, I'm only here for 48 hours. I can't
33:36
Speaker 3: do it.
33:37
Speaker 2: And she uses an AI agent and that she had
33:41
Speaker 2: her AI agent connect with her friend's AI agent.
33:45
Speaker 3: And now they have a coffee date on the calendar, right?
33:48
Speaker 3: And so- Hash it out. There are all these little
33:51
Speaker 3: ways that are using.
33:52
Speaker 2: AI to bring them in deeper community with the people
33:55
Speaker 2: that they love, which I really was not expecting. Yeah.
34:00
Speaker 1: Like using it as an assistant, like, right. A little
34:03
Speaker 1: executive assistant to get us a coffee date scheduled. Um, and,
34:08
Speaker 1: and also I think reading between the lines here, using
34:11
Speaker 1: this to kind of work through how to solve relational
34:16
Speaker 1: issues with other people. So role-playing different things or, you know,
34:20
Speaker 1: what do I do in this situation? And, and, um,
34:23
Speaker 1: but sometimes getting some decent advice.
34:25
Speaker 2: Like people are already using AI for advice. One in
34:29
Speaker 2: 10 people, adults are already doing that. And so I,
34:34
Speaker 2: that's a little bit of a weird one for me.
34:36
Speaker 2: People are using AI for advice. When you look at
34:40
Speaker 2: the research, AI can be used for specific kinds of therapy.
34:46
Speaker 2: Like there is some research that suggests that for CBT,
34:50
Speaker 2: AI might actually show some promise there. But, you know,
34:54
Speaker 2: when you're thinking of a general-purpose chatbot, a Claude or
34:57
Speaker 2: a ChatGPT, as opposed to a bot that was specifically
35:01
Speaker 2: designed for therapy, like a Wyza or a Woebot, one
35:04
Speaker 2: of the things to really keep in mind is that
35:07
Speaker 2: ChatGPT is simply not designed for therapy, right? Sam Altman
35:11
Speaker 2: has been very clear himself that You know, he knows
35:14
Speaker 2: a lot of people, particularly young people, are turning to
35:17
Speaker 2: Chachapiti for therapy and that he doesn't think it's a
35:20
Speaker 2: good idea. It's not designed for that. And so one
35:22
Speaker 2: of the reasons why is that AI is designed to
35:25
Speaker 2: be flattering, to be validating, to be sometimes sycophantic. And
35:31
Speaker 2: sometimes what we need is not a validating, sycophantic, you know,
35:37
Speaker 2: presence sometimes we need I mean I'm sure that you
35:39
Speaker 2: do this in your work sometimes people need to be
35:41
Speaker 2: challenged sometimes people need to be pushed sometimes just getting
35:45
Speaker 2: validation that what you're saying is is right or good
35:49
Speaker 2: or reasonable is actually presenting kind of a dangerous situation.
35:57
Speaker 1: Absolutely and and also too I mean just speaking as
36:00
Speaker 1: a therapist I About 10 years ago, I actually pivoted,
36:04
Speaker 1: so I still do therapy, but it really expanded my
36:07
Speaker 1: work into coaching psychology because that's actually where I found
36:12
Speaker 1: a lot more of the energy you're describing around the
36:15
Speaker 1: challenging and the, you know, holding people accountable and pushing back.
36:20
Speaker 1: Whereas the culture of counseling is to be extremely receptive
36:25
Speaker 1: and unconditional positive regard. and occupying the same type of
36:29
Speaker 1: emotional space in many ways that you're describing AI systems
36:33
Speaker 1: doing that can be problematic. And we also know from
36:37
Speaker 1: research that that can actually be problematic in a relationship
36:40
Speaker 1: between a human therapist and a client, if there's not
36:44
Speaker 1: a pushback from the therapist perspective, if a therapist is
36:50
Speaker 1: following their client all the way. So there's that as well,
36:54
Speaker 1: but also agreed, There are AI-based systems that have frequently
37:01
Speaker 1: been developed in partnership with psychologists or other mental health
37:04
Speaker 1: professionals that aren't just effective. They're also expanding the accessibility
37:10
Speaker 1: to treatment and care that wouldn't have been possible otherwise.
37:13
Speaker 1: Some really interesting stuff. Traumatized soldiers with PTSD. going through
37:20
Speaker 1: a protocol that's facilitated with AI and actually like VR
37:25
Speaker 1: goggles for some of the re-exposure pieces of it. It's
37:29
Speaker 1: managed by psychologists, but as opposed to one psychologist with
37:33
Speaker 1: 10 clients, you know, can really scale it and help
37:35
Speaker 1: a lot more people a lot more cost-effectively too. So
37:38
Speaker 1: we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
37:41
Speaker 1: But to your point, you're also saying that a lot
37:43
Speaker 1: of the off-the-rack systems that people have easy access to,
37:46
Speaker 1: like CLAW, like GPT, that is not what they're designed for.
37:50
Speaker 1: There is nobody overseeing what is happening there. And regrettable
37:54
Speaker 1: things can happen.
37:55
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.
37:55
Speaker 2: First of all, I'm so glad that you talked about
37:57
Speaker 2: some of the different therapeutic programs that are being designed
38:01
Speaker 2: in partnership with mental health professionals. I actually get into
38:05
Speaker 2: this a lot online where people say, well, if I,
38:08
Speaker 2: you know, therapy is so expensive, I don't have insurance, like,
38:11
Speaker 2: why can't I use ChatGPT or AI for therapy? And
38:15
Speaker 2: I always advocate for, if you really do feel like
38:18
Speaker 2: you want to turn to AI for therapy, at least
38:22
Speaker 2: look into an AI app that was designed for that purpose,
38:26
Speaker 2: not a cloud, not a ChatGPT.
38:28
Speaker 3: Look into a.
38:29
Speaker 2: Resource that might be in collaboration with a mental health professional.
38:34
Speaker 1: And may I just use this opportunity to add that
38:37
Speaker 1: there is also a proliferation of, quote, therapy apps that
38:43
Speaker 1: anyone can design and call a therapy app that have
38:48
Speaker 1: no mental health professionals anywhere in the mix. They are
38:52
Speaker 1: mercenary types who were like, you know what we could do?
38:55
Speaker 1: And people would buy it. And so to read the
38:57
Speaker 1: fine print and know.
38:59
Speaker 3: Where it's coming from.
39:00
Speaker 2: So thank you. From where I started, almost everything I
39:04
Speaker 2: knew about AI intimacy was wrong. And so the project
39:08
Speaker 2: was almost sort of a debunking. I was sort of
39:10
Speaker 2: like correcting my own incorrect understanding of AI intimacy, what
39:16
Speaker 2: brings people to it, what they're getting out of it.
39:18
Speaker 3: I had it completely wrong.
39:20
Speaker 1: Well, I have to know, what did you think was
39:24
Speaker 1: the truth?
39:24
Speaker 2: Before I started the research that everybody who experiences intimacy
39:28
Speaker 2: with AI is.
39:29
Speaker 3: hopelessly lonely.
39:31
Speaker 2: Some people are, but there are plenty of people who
39:34
Speaker 2: do not self-report.
39:36
Speaker 3: As being particularly lonely.
39:38
Speaker 2: There are plenty of people that I spoke to who
39:39
Speaker 2: have human partners, human relationships, human friends who still turn
39:43
Speaker 2: to AI. I thought that people who use AI for
39:47
Speaker 2: intimacy were trying to replace their human connections, that they
39:51
Speaker 2: wanted to sort of isolate themselves and only surround themselves
39:55
Speaker 2: with validating, flattering AI so they wouldn't have to deal
39:58
Speaker 2: with the challenges of being in a human relationship. And
40:01
Speaker 2: I was surprised to find out that for most people
40:04
Speaker 2: who use AI in an intimate way, They actually say, listen,
40:08
Speaker 2: the relationship that I have with AI is a completely
40:11
Speaker 2: different thing than whatever relationship I have with a human.
40:13
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to replace my human relationships with AI.
40:17
Speaker 3: And I couldn't even if I wanted to.
40:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much all of the misconceptions I had about
40:23
Speaker 2: what kind of person uses AI for intimacy and why
40:26
Speaker 2: were incorrect.
40:27
Speaker 1: It's so fascinating. And it almost sounds like As you're
40:31
Speaker 1: talking about this, let me just ask you, is this
40:33
Speaker 1: the right way to think of it? It's almost in
40:35
Speaker 1: a guilty pleasure category. This is fun. It's bringing me
40:40
Speaker 1: pleasure and joy, and I like it. Not harming anyone.
40:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, for plenty of people. So why not?
40:46
Speaker 1: Yeah.
40:46
Speaker 3: Is that it? One of the researchers I spoke to, Dr.
40:49
Speaker 2: Kate Devlin, told me that she had spoke to people
40:51
Speaker 2: who they had an AI companion that they had asked to.
40:56
Speaker 3: you know, act like a British rock star.
40:58
Speaker 2: And she would just have a conversation in the mornings
41:00
Speaker 2: where it would pump her up and be like, hey, princess,
41:03
Speaker 2: have a great day. These little ways of like, yeah,
41:06
Speaker 2: you know, the risk case and those kinds of uses
41:10
Speaker 2: are pretty low.
41:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounded kind of fun.
41:13
Speaker 1: I might do that, actually.
41:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good idea. Okay.
41:18
Speaker 1: Well, this is so helpful. And thank you. It's like,
41:21
Speaker 1: you know, but I think that this is why we
41:23
Speaker 1: really need people like you who will go in and
41:26
Speaker 1: do the research and actually ask the questions and get
41:29
Speaker 1: the real answers as opposed to observing something from this
41:32
Speaker 1: like academic distance almost and assuming all kinds of things
41:36
Speaker 1: that aren't actually true when you go in there. And
41:38
Speaker 1: can I just say one of the things that I
41:40
Speaker 1: learned about your book that I think is so cool
41:43
Speaker 1: and so fascinating and I hadn't heard of it before.
41:46
Speaker 1: So it's Love at First Prompt, but you actually created
41:49
Speaker 1: it as an audio book so that you could capture
41:53
Speaker 1: the voices of the people that you were interviewing. But also,
41:56
Speaker 1: I'm guessing they're companions, right? Or like. I'm the British
42:00
Speaker 1: rock star, and.
42:01
Speaker 3: It's a trip. Yeah, it's almost like a multimedia project.
42:05
Speaker 3: That's awesome.
42:07
Speaker 2: You hear from folks in their own words, with their
42:09
Speaker 2: own voices, including AI.
42:11
Speaker 1: I love it. Like, to get a flavor, at least,
42:15
Speaker 1: of the actual experience is just so cool. And so then,
42:19
Speaker 1: in your research, so you're talking about the benefits that
42:23
Speaker 1: this is creating, and it's meeting a need. and people
42:26
Speaker 1: are feeling good about these. And oh, actually, I'm realizing
42:30
Speaker 1: we need to take another quick break. On the other side,
42:33
Speaker 1: I really want to hear about the dark sides of this.
42:37
Speaker 1: What were the stories you heard of people where it
42:40
Speaker 1: started to impact them negatively, maybe in ways that surprised
42:43
Speaker 1: them or you? And if so, how did they course
42:48
Speaker 1: correct and Before I let you go, I must hear
42:51
Speaker 1: your thoughts about the danger signs and what to do
42:55
Speaker 1: if you or someone you love is going too far
42:59
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43:18
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43:22
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43:25
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44:49
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45:30
Speaker 1: happiness and success. It's the very best way to support
45:32
Speaker 1: the show. Moving into the dark side of this. What
45:38
Speaker 1: did you learn about that? I mean, did you encounter
45:40
Speaker 1: people who were using it in a way or kind
45:42
Speaker 1: of went down the drain to the degree that it was.
45:46
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, yes.
45:48
Speaker 2: We can't have a conversation about AI without talking about it.
45:52
Speaker 3: It's just a reality. When I started the book, there.
45:55
Speaker 2: Were at least 10 lawsuits against AI companies moving through
45:59
Speaker 2: the courts where someone had been harmed because of an
46:03
Speaker 2: intimate connection with AI, whether they died by suicide or
46:06
Speaker 2: experienced self-harm or harmed another person. And I do think,
46:11
Speaker 2: I mean, that it comes back to that idea that
46:13
Speaker 2: we were talking about before of when you are having
46:17
Speaker 2: an intimate connection with technology that is designed to be
46:20
Speaker 2: validating and flattering and tell you that you're right, what
46:24
Speaker 2: happens when you're describing something that is harmful or that
46:28
Speaker 2: can harm yourself or others? And an AI tells you,
46:32
Speaker 2: great idea, follow that instinct, right? And so this is
46:35
Speaker 2: particularly a better thing with young people. We don't have
46:40
Speaker 2: a ton of research about this level of risk, but
46:44
Speaker 2: as far as we know right now, for most healthy
46:47
Speaker 2: adults who have an intimate connection with AI, they are
46:51
Speaker 2: unlikely to experience catastrophic harm from that connection. Now, the
46:55
Speaker 2: issue is not everybody, we all think of ourselves as
46:58
Speaker 2: a healthy adult. When you get up, turn on chat
47:01
Speaker 2: GPT on your phone, you're not thinking, I am a
47:04
Speaker 2: vulnerable at-risk adult actually. And so it's one of those
47:08
Speaker 2: things where, somebody might not even necessarily know that they
47:12
Speaker 2: are not in the category of healthy adults until it's
47:16
Speaker 2: too late.
47:17
Speaker 1: And I think that's true for all of us. We
47:20
Speaker 1: tend to believe our own thoughts and feelings and perspectives,
47:25
Speaker 1: and to have the world make sense when we look
47:28
Speaker 1: at it throughout our own eyes, and then to be
47:30
Speaker 1: in a relationship with a companion who is reinforcing whatever
47:35
Speaker 1: that worldview is can be potentially risky. Um, and of course,
47:41
Speaker 1: there are, like, the extreme versions of this, and we've
47:44
Speaker 1: heard those stories. I mean, people who there's, like, a
47:46
Speaker 1: full psychotic break, and there's delusions involved, and terrible things happen. Um...
47:51
Speaker 1: Are there other consequences that you've seen that maybe aren't
47:54
Speaker 1: quite as dramatic?
47:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think we do sort of jump
47:57
Speaker 2: right to the most extreme edge cases, and we should
48:00
Speaker 2: be talking about the more commonplace risks.
48:03
Speaker 3: There are many.
48:04
Speaker 2: You know, one, I said that people who turn to
48:07
Speaker 2: AI over like a human therapist or human friends, they
48:10
Speaker 2: do so out of this perception that AI is private.
48:13
Speaker 3: It's not.
48:14
Speaker 2: Human moderators, human... workers, contract workers in the Global South,
48:21
Speaker 2: they're reading whatever it is that you're typing to ChatGPT.
48:25
Speaker 3: So even though it might seem private, it is anything but.
48:29
Speaker 3: And so there's an incredible risk for harm there.
48:31
Speaker 2: As a mental health professional, the ways that you can
48:35
Speaker 2: talk about somebody who is a client of yours, you're
48:37
Speaker 2: legally bound to certain regulations. AI simply is.
48:45
Speaker 2: General purpose AI chatbots like Claude or ChatGPT are not, right?
48:49
Speaker 2: And so they're not private.
48:50
Speaker 3: Yeah.
48:53
Speaker 1: Sure. Can I ask just a question? Have you heard
48:57
Speaker 1: of any situations where personal private information that people disclosed
49:04
Speaker 1: to like, you know, ChatGPT thinking that it was private
49:07
Speaker 1: resurfaced and was like connected with their name?
49:11
Speaker 2: Probably the most specific example I've heard of that is
49:15
Speaker 2: that People are going through a messy divorce and they're
49:19
Speaker 2: talking to each other to Chad GPT about that divorce.
49:22
Speaker 3: Those have been and can be subpoenaed.
49:24
Speaker 2: So someone thinks they're having what they feel is a
49:27
Speaker 2: private conversation with Chad GPT. Somebody else's attorney subpoenas that
49:33
Speaker 2: conversation and Chad GPT or OpenAI has complied with.
49:40
Speaker 3: Turning over those documents. And so, again, you... Yeah, you
49:44
Speaker 3: think that you're having a private conversation.
49:47
Speaker 2: Just, I think, last week, there was just a little
49:49
Speaker 2: bit of a different situation, but just last week, there
49:51
Speaker 2: was a woman who... She said that she had been
49:54
Speaker 2: using Claude as a journal. And in Claude, she described,
49:59
Speaker 2: you know, saying like, oh, like, I'm so angry. I
50:02
Speaker 2: just want to commit an.
50:03
Speaker 3: Act of violence.
50:05
Speaker 1: And.
50:05
Speaker 2: Claude flagged that conversation to a human moderator who was like, okay,
50:09
Speaker 2: we should call the police.
50:10
Speaker 3: And now she is arrested and awaiting felony charges. This
50:13
Speaker 3: was just a week ago.
50:14
Speaker 2: So I cannot express how much these conversations are being
50:19
Speaker 2: read by humans.
50:22
Speaker 1: Okay. You know, another thing that floated through my mind,
50:27
Speaker 1: and I don't know if this is something that came
50:28
Speaker 1: up in your research at all, but I could see
50:32
Speaker 1: another consequence of getting into a relationship with an AI-based
50:38
Speaker 1: system that could also be easy to miss, like from
50:42
Speaker 1: the perspective of the person doing it, are things like
50:45
Speaker 1: social anxiety, which is very real. It's prevalent. It's common.
50:50
Speaker 1: And people feel very uncomfortable in spending time with other
50:55
Speaker 1: people or making new friends. And there's like a lot
50:58
Speaker 1: of like self-criticism. They think I'm weird, I'm awkward, and
51:03
Speaker 1: just like this discomfort. And what anxiety tends to do
51:07
Speaker 1: is that it makes us avoid things. That is the
51:11
Speaker 1: natural impulse. And the truth is that in order to
51:16
Speaker 1: move through this and not be as anxious socially, we
51:20
Speaker 1: have to counterintuitively put ourselves into situations that make us
51:26
Speaker 1: uncomfortable in order to have like the corrective emotional experiences
51:30
Speaker 1: and develop capabilities. And so what I would imagine is
51:34
Speaker 1: that there's a category of people who really struggle with
51:37
Speaker 1: social anxiety and have like solved the problem, so to speak,
51:42
Speaker 1: by increasing their isolation, getting more of their needs met
51:45
Speaker 1: by technology so that they are not feeling as anxious
51:51
Speaker 1: in experiences with other people, but at the same time,
51:53
Speaker 1: they're perpetuating their Yeah.
51:56
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not something that came up in the book,
52:00
Speaker 2: but it certainly, you know, I see shades of that
52:05
Speaker 2: all over. And I wouldn't even argue that it's that uncommon.
52:09
Speaker 2: I think we live in a world where, listen, it's
52:12
Speaker 2: hard to get out there and make friends. It's hard
52:14
Speaker 2: after you've had a long day of work, don't you
52:16
Speaker 2: just want to sit on the couch and be cozy
52:17
Speaker 2: and comfortable? Don't you want to just order Uber Eats
52:20
Speaker 2: and have food brought to your door? We live in
52:22
Speaker 2: a world where it has never been easier to experience friction,
52:26
Speaker 2: to experience something that's like, it's never been easier to
52:31
Speaker 2: avoid friction and to make a choice that allows you
52:35
Speaker 2: to sort of stay in your comfort zone. And I
52:38
Speaker 2: think AI is like any other technology that is sort
52:41
Speaker 2: of making that choice seem really appealing. And I do
52:46
Speaker 2: think you're exactly right. It is counterintuitive, but the only
52:49
Speaker 2: way out of that is continuing to put yourself out
52:51
Speaker 2: there and be out of your comfort zones. And that
52:54
Speaker 2: is the point of connecting with other humans, right, is
52:58
Speaker 2: the challenge and the unexpectedness that comes when you are
53:01
Speaker 2: in connection with another human. And so I would argue
53:03
Speaker 2: we don't need to avoid that using technology. That is actually,
53:07
Speaker 2: in fact, what life is all about.
53:11
Speaker 1: That's such a great point. Yes, like that is the experience.
53:15
Speaker 1: And if you're sitting out, you're missing things and that
53:18
Speaker 1: it's also easy to do that. So then lastly, just
53:22
Speaker 1: for our friends here listening, I'm curious if you were
53:26
Speaker 1: able to identify any signs or common patterns, you know,
53:32
Speaker 1: maybe from people that you spoke with who noticed that
53:36
Speaker 1: their relationships with AI were leading to detrimental effects. impacts
53:40
Speaker 1: on themselves and their lives and their other relationships. And
53:43
Speaker 1: they were like, okay, I need to course correct here.
53:46
Speaker 1: Maybe they changed that or maybe not. Maybe there was
53:51
Speaker 1: intervention that was required. I don't know. But like, what
53:54
Speaker 1: have you learned about signs that it's going too far?
53:59
Speaker 2: I would say the biggest sign that I think folks
54:03
Speaker 2: should be on the lookout for within themselves and others
54:06
Speaker 2: is When you lose touch with a part of you
54:09
Speaker 2: that knows how to make decisions and that trusts your
54:13
Speaker 2: own decision-making and inner voice, if you start feeling like
54:17
Speaker 2: you need to run every little micro-decision through AI before
54:21
Speaker 2: you make it, and to the point where you feel
54:23
Speaker 2: like you no longer are in touch with the part
54:25
Speaker 2: of yourself that knows what you want, that knows how
54:28
Speaker 2: to make decisions, that knows how to trust your gut,
54:31
Speaker 2: that's a problem, right? I think that's, to me, that's
54:34
Speaker 2: one of the biggest signs that perhaps Something needs to
54:37
Speaker 2: be re-examined about your relationship with AI. Yeah.
54:43
Speaker 1: And you know, like, for people in their 30s or
54:48
Speaker 1: 40s who just began using this a couple few years ago, right? Like,
54:52
Speaker 1: you're pretty well-baked. You know who you are. You have
54:54
Speaker 1: all these years of experience of your own perspective and
54:58
Speaker 1: point of view, whatever. But I think just when you
55:00
Speaker 1: said that about little 13 or 14 or 15-year-olds who
55:03
Speaker 1: really don't know who they are, what they want, and
55:07
Speaker 1: are kind of like looking for guidance and authority figures
55:10
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways to be able to outsource
55:12
Speaker 1: that and to do so to the degree that they
55:15
Speaker 1: never even develop their own perspective.
55:18
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
55:19
Speaker 2: Especially for young folks, I would say, if you've got
55:21
Speaker 2: young folks in your life, absolutely be having conversations with
55:25
Speaker 2: them about what they're... AI relationship looks like. You know,
55:30
Speaker 2: the biggest predictor of whether or not a youth is
55:34
Speaker 2: going to have some sort of negative experience with technology
55:37
Speaker 2: is whether or not that young person has somebody, an
55:40
Speaker 2: adult in their life that they feel like they can
55:42
Speaker 2: trust and have open conversations with. And so if you're
55:45
Speaker 2: concerned about your kid up in her room having a
55:48
Speaker 2: conversation with AI, you don't know anything about it, foster
55:50
Speaker 2: the kind of household where you can speak to her
55:53
Speaker 2: honestly about it. You guys can have conversations about the
55:55
Speaker 2: way that AI is showing up in her media diet already.
56:00
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. Now, Bridget, the million dollar question here. I
56:07
Speaker 1: think we all know from my own experience as a therapist,
56:10
Speaker 1: as a human, I know you do too, that when.
56:15
Speaker 1: Anyone has bonded with anything even like a you know
56:22
Speaker 1: a weird boyfriend that everybody else can see is like
56:25
Speaker 1: a total train wreck or the crazy hot chick right
56:28
Speaker 1: you're like this is not going to end well it
56:31
Speaker 1: is impossible to um have that not be typically rejected
56:40
Speaker 1: out of hand. You don't understand. You don't know the
56:43
Speaker 1: way that I do, right? The power of the body,
56:45
Speaker 1: especially in a limerent state or like an early phase
56:48
Speaker 1: of romantic love where there is a lot of excitement
56:50
Speaker 1: and feelings, that's like a force to be reckoned with.
56:55
Speaker 1: And so my question for you is if you have
56:57
Speaker 1: somebody in your life who is in that space and
57:00
Speaker 1: you're like, oh my God, this is not good for them.
57:05
Speaker 1: We need to do something. There needs to be some
57:09
Speaker 1: kind of intervention? How are we going to help this person?
57:11
Speaker 1: But they're welded to the technology emotionally. Do you have
57:16
Speaker 1: any thoughts about where to start with that?
57:18
Speaker 2: It's a tech question, but it's also just a relationship question.
57:21
Speaker 2: The same thing that you would... Yeah, the same thing
57:24
Speaker 2: that you would do with your friend that's in a
57:26
Speaker 2: relationship with somebody that you know is trouble, you would
57:29
Speaker 2: do with their relationship with AI. Keep that lane of
57:34
Speaker 2: communication open.
57:35
Speaker 3: Don't, you know.
57:37
Speaker 2: I have found myself trash-talking my friend's crap boyfriends to
57:42
Speaker 2: the point where she's like, I'm not even gonna tell
57:44
Speaker 2: you what.
57:45
Speaker 3: The vibe is anymore, right?
57:47
Speaker 1: Yep.
57:48
Speaker 2: So the same thing is true with people's relationships with AI.
57:52
Speaker 2: Don't be the voice that makes them shut down, that
57:55
Speaker 2: makes them start hiding what they're actually doing from you.
57:59
Speaker 2: Keep the lines of communication open and try to come
58:02
Speaker 2: from a place of curiosity because otherwise, exactly as you said,
58:06
Speaker 2: they're just going to shut down. And that is exactly
58:09
Speaker 2: the behavior that you don't want because it's so easy
58:12
Speaker 2: to have that person drive even deeper into isolation.
58:17
Speaker 1: Yes. Oh man, that is such good advice. And you know, there's,
58:22
Speaker 1: there's a corollary, like even like, so a super toxic relationship.
58:27
Speaker 1: So somebody that you suspect is even like in an
58:29
Speaker 1: abusive relationship, a domestic violence situation, it is so hard
58:34
Speaker 1: for people to leave those. And a lot of times
58:36
Speaker 1: what can happen is that other people start to judge
58:41
Speaker 1: or criticize or tell them what to do. Right. Or
58:43
Speaker 1: also that, people say, I can't maintain my relationship with
58:49
Speaker 1: this person while they're doing this thing that I have
58:51
Speaker 1: so much strong disapproval around. And so then those doors
58:55
Speaker 1: are shut and that person is so isolated. And then
58:58
Speaker 1: when they do need help, there's nobody around in those moments.
59:03
Speaker 1: And so to maintain those connections, even if you don't
59:05
Speaker 1: understand or agree. And to your point too, that you've
59:08
Speaker 1: also saw people that have an ebb and flow in
59:10
Speaker 1: these relationships and that, you know, they can have experiences
59:14
Speaker 1: that are a little bit disappointing and that those might
59:16
Speaker 1: be doors of opportunity to just tell me more about
59:20
Speaker 1: that experience that could increase their awareness.
59:22
Speaker 3: Exactly. Yeah. That's a really great way to put it.
59:24
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
59:26
Speaker 2: Excellent.
59:27
Speaker 1: This has been such a fascinating conversation. And you talked
59:31
Speaker 1: about how your perspective about all this was changed because
59:33
Speaker 1: of your work in writing this fascinating book, Love at
59:37
Speaker 1: First Prompt, fascinating audio book, Love at First Prompt. You've
59:40
Speaker 1: certainly changed my perspective over the course of this conversation.
59:44
Speaker 1: Are there any last ideas you want to share with
59:45
Speaker 1: our friends who are here with us?
59:47
Speaker 3: No, I think you really got it.
59:48
Speaker 2: I think really ending on that note of trying to
59:51
Speaker 2: come from a place of curiosity. I once had a
59:53
Speaker 2: therapist tell me that curiosity and judgment could not coexist.
59:57
Speaker 2: And so try to leave with curiosity. And so I
59:59
Speaker 2: think that's just a great point to drive home.
1:00:01
Speaker 1: Yeah. Curiosity for other people or, you know, if you
1:00:06
Speaker 1: find yourself feeling really excited about an AI thing in
1:00:09
Speaker 1: your life, be curious about that too. How does this
1:00:11
Speaker 1: make sense? What is this telling me about me and
1:00:14
Speaker 1: who I am and what I might like to have
1:00:15
Speaker 1: more of in my human relationships? So, All right. Well,
1:00:19
Speaker 1: this has been fantastic. So you guys, again, we've been
1:00:23
Speaker 1: visiting with Bridget Todd, the host of the There Are
1:00:27
Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet podcast. I am going to
1:00:31
Speaker 1: subscribe to that as soon as we end this call.
1:00:35
Speaker 1: And of course, the new audio book called Love at
1:00:37
Speaker 1: First Prompt. Bridget, tell our friends a little bit more
1:00:41
Speaker 1: about where they could connect with you. Get your book.
1:00:43
Speaker 3: Well, you can check out my book.
1:00:45
Speaker 2: At Love at First Prompt, AI and the Future of Intimacy,
1:00:48
Speaker 2: wherever you get your audiobooks or at loveatfirstprompt.com. And you
1:00:52
Speaker 2: can follow me on Instagram at BridgetMarieNDC and check out
1:00:55
Speaker 2: the podcast. There are no girls on the internet.
1:01:08
Speaker 1: You guys, that was such a fascinating conversation with Bridget Todd.
1:01:12
Speaker 1: I learned some new things over the course of our
1:01:14
Speaker 1: time together today. I hope you did too. And one
1:01:17
Speaker 1: of my takeaways, though, is it really goes back to
1:01:20
Speaker 1: that idea that Bridget and I were discussing around how
1:01:24
Speaker 1: hard it can be to have visibility into yourself and
1:01:28
Speaker 1: how we tend to believe whatever we're thinking and feeling.
1:01:33
Speaker 1: And it's so important to be able to get some
1:01:35
Speaker 1: distance and some perspective and to create some curiosity about
1:01:41
Speaker 1: our own experiences. And so I just wanted to invite
1:01:45
Speaker 1: you to consider, you know, if you resonated to any
1:01:49
Speaker 1: of this conversation, if maybe you've been using AI in
1:01:52
Speaker 1: a way to get some needs met, that maybe could
1:01:55
Speaker 1: or should be met in your relationship with your partner,
1:01:57
Speaker 1: somebody else. Um, like, what do I do with that? Uh,
1:02:01
Speaker 1: or if you have noticed that there are needs for
1:02:04
Speaker 1: support or, um, that you're leaning on this in a
1:02:07
Speaker 1: way that feels like it's maybe not good for you,
1:02:10
Speaker 1: it could be really good idea to bring this to
1:02:14
Speaker 1: a human person, ideally a therapist with a coaching background
1:02:18
Speaker 1: who will challenge you and help you get reconnected with
1:02:22
Speaker 1: yourself in a powerful way and help you have, um,
1:02:27
Speaker 1: experiences where you can connect directly with what is it
1:02:31
Speaker 1: that you want? What are you trying to achieve? And
1:02:34
Speaker 1: what are some other ways that you can build this
1:02:37
Speaker 1: into your life in a durable way that might have
1:02:42
Speaker 1: fewer risks? And nobody's saying that you need to stop
1:02:45
Speaker 1: using chatbots, but this could be a window of opportunity
1:02:48
Speaker 1: to have more access into your own experience. So all
1:02:52
Speaker 1: that to say, if you'd like to do that with
1:02:54
Speaker 1: me or work with any of the clinicians on my
1:02:57
Speaker 1: team at Growing Self, who are all licensed mental health
1:03:00
Speaker 1: professionals who are specialize in coaching psychology, which means that
1:03:06
Speaker 1: they're there to help you get reconnected with you. What
1:03:09
Speaker 1: do you want? How do you clarify your goals? How
1:03:12
Speaker 1: do you understand yourself better? And then how do you
1:03:16
Speaker 1: operate in a different way in order to create more
1:03:20
Speaker 1: congruence between what you want and your current reality? How
1:03:24
Speaker 1: do we close that gap? That's not something that all
1:03:28
Speaker 1: therapists necessarily know how to do. And that's something that
1:03:31
Speaker 1: is a specialty at Growing Self. So if you'd like
1:03:34
Speaker 1: to learn more about that, it all starts with a
1:03:36
Speaker 1: free consultation. Come to growingself.com. Click the Get Connected button
1:03:42
Speaker 1: and answer a few questions. And we'll match you with
1:03:45
Speaker 1: a coaching therapist who can learn more about you, understand
1:03:49
Speaker 1: what you're hoping to get out of this, and just
1:03:51
Speaker 1: have a first conversation to see if they're the right
1:03:53
Speaker 1: person to help you get there. All right. So you guys,
1:03:56
Speaker 1: that's it for today. Thanks for listening. And I'll be
1:03:59
Speaker 1: back in touch soon with another episode of love, happiness,
1:04:02
Speaker 1: and success. Most people find their new favorite podcast from
1:04:55
Speaker 1: a friend's recommendation. And I feel like we're friends now.
1:04:58
Speaker 1: So I'm going to share one of my favorites with you,
1:05:01
Speaker 1: The Dr. Leaf Show. If you like mine, you're going
1:05:04
Speaker 1: to like hers. It is hosted by cognitive neuroscience and
1:05:07
Speaker 1: author Dr. Carolyn Leaf. She's also part of the Yap
1:05:10
Speaker 1: Media Network. It's focused on understanding your mind and improving
1:05:14
Speaker 1: your mental and emotional well-being and the connection to mental, emotional,
1:05:19
Speaker 1: and physical foundations of all three.
1:05:22
Speaker 3: Dr.
1:05:22
Speaker 1: Leaf does a beautiful job of translating scientific concepts into
1:05:25
Speaker 1: practical insights, but also actionable tools that you can apply
1:05:29
Speaker 1: to your everyday life and start getting traction on things
1:05:32
Speaker 1: like stress, changing thought patterns, and developing yourself. Her science-informed
1:05:36
Speaker 1: strategies are such a nice complement to the things you're
1:05:39
Speaker 1: learning here on Love, Happiness, and Success, and I hope
1:05:42
Speaker 1: you check it out. If you want to better understand
1:05:43
Speaker 1: your mind and learn practical strategies for managing it, listen
1:05:46
Speaker 1: to The Dr. Leaf Show. You can subscribe today on
1:05:49
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen.