Latest / Outdoor Hospitality Podcast: Glamping, STR, Resorts, Unique Stays, RV Parks, RV Resorts & Campgrounds / Sandbox Stays: The biggest pitfalls when selecting your glamping unit for your resort, STR, rv park, campground or unique stay property - Part 1

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Sandbox Stays: The biggest pitfalls when selecting your glamping unit for your resort, STR, rv park, campground or unique stay property - Part 1 · Outdoor Hospitality Podcast: Glamping, STR, Resorts, Unique Stays, RV Parks, RV Resorts & Campgrounds

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to the Outdoor Hospitality Podcast.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Connor Schwab.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Today I'm joined by Evan Purcell, a good friend of mine who's also the founder and head engineer, head of products, head of most things involving a calculation at Sandy Vans, as well as Sandy Vans' newest company, which is called Sandbox.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Evan.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks for having me, Connor.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Glad to be back on the show.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Evan and I are good friends.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: We go way back to starting our first products company, which was a dog leash company called Novo Pets.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then we started Sandy Vans five years ago.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then in January of this year, Evan started Sandbox Concepts.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: And he did that basically to help me because in my new role at Clear Summon Investments, we were designing one of our properties called Ponderosa Pines Resorts outside of Flagstaff.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's a 44-unit cabin resort on 17 wooded acres.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: And we're turning it into a nature and wellness resort with predominantly cabins as the primary unit type.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: And basically, we found out in January, this we purchased this property to be a 75-unit RV park.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then our head of development got a big entitlement win, which allowed us to put RVIA certified park model cabins on all the sites.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I ran the numbers and I realized that this property did way better as a small 65-unit RV site, and it would do much better as a 45-unit cabin resort.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: So in January, we changed our entire business plan for the property and went into kind of overdrive mode, rethinking.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, the first thing we did was think about what are our units and where are we going to get them.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: So our head of development and I, we scoured the industry high and low, spoke with a ton of cabin providers in the US, and we were looking for we really wanted unique, unique, modern, you know, sexy units that didn't look like a traditional RV park park model cabin.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: And we wanted something that popped off the page and was viral and you know really garnered a lot of traction and attention.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: And there's not a lot of people doing large-scale of those types of units.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: There's a ton of folks doing massive traditional RV park model cabins that kind of look like traditional homes.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: They're a little bit more traditional and kind of a bit boring looking, if we're being honest.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: There's a couple players, Zook's probably the most well-known, who is doing kind of more sexy modern, larger park model cabins.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: So we spent a lot of time looking at them.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: There was one out in the Northeast, which was Cabin Pros LLC.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: They came up with some great designs.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: They're just in Pennsylvania, so it was super cost prohibitive to ship across the United States to where we were.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: So we started to look into a lot of options.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: We ended up finding a domestic manufacturer in Salt Lake City that we really liked.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: But we wanted to get something at a more competitive price point.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because Clear Summit Investments is doing so many properties, we're planning to deploy one to 200 units over the next 12 to 24 months.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: We wanted a manufacturing partner that could grow and scale with us.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: And one, create us custom units that were high quality, but also be able to do it at cost.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I was sharing this problem with Evan.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: And Evan, being kind of the mad scientist, designer and engineer that he is, basically said, he's like, show me the design.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I showed him the design that we wanted.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: And he basically said, Oh yeah, we can do this, no problem.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: Give me a couple weeks.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: And sure enough, in a couple weeks, he got back to me and said, Hey, we can, yes, like we've got we've got an option, we can do this.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so we ended up, I didn't really believe him, to be honest, because trying to source manufacturing in the timelines that we needed was unrealistic, if I'm being completely honest.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: But Evan put his nose to the grindstone.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: And in a matter of months, finalized the designs, sourced the manufacturing, got the engineering docs, sorted the transportation, and got us our units that got delivered to our property in late July.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then we'll probably have those live on the Ponderosa website in the next few weeks, so in September, and you'll be able to see those.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: But basically, they're an A-frame cabin with bump outs and one side's all glass, and it's designed as a two-person unit.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: The square footage, they're 12 and a half feet wide by, I think.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: Do you remember the length, Evan?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, listeners.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to share a quick story.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: I recently started to help a client set up their three properties, two RV resorts and one glamping resort.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: And they wanted me to help roll out their new tech stack.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: And at the center of that is the PMS or the property management software.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: These clients decided to go with storable new book, and thank goodness they did because the property management software is the nucleus of everything that you'll set up your website, your social media, your bookings, your cleanings, everything.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it really handles the entire process from both the front customer-facing side as well as the back end and coordinating cleaners and things like that.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it's, you know, setting up your photos and your pricing and your dynamic pricing and revenue management and your unit information and ensuring a smooth and customizable shopping cart experience to ensure a high conversion rate with your customers.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then they have all these great automations.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: It can send texts and emails to your guests before they arrive on the day they arrived or after to get feedback and reviews.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: And you can track all your financial performance.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then it also helps with the back end and analyzing your data.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: I honestly couldn't be happier with the experience.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: If I called the new book helpline, I get an answer right away with someone who can help me with like three or four standing meetings each week with different members of their teams to set up the different capabilities and softwares.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: We're even using them to set up these property websites.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: We're using them for digital marketing services and SEO.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, it has been excellent.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I chased down Storable New Book to ask them if they would be sponsors of the podcast because I really believed in their product.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: Fortunately, they were willing.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: So they are today's sponsors.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're unhappy with your PMS or you're launching a product and shopping, definitely give them a call.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: They'll give you a free software demonstration.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: And if you let them know that you came from the Outdoor Hospitality Podcast, they'll give you 15% off your new book signature subscriptions.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: Can't recommend storable new book highly enough.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Go check them out.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: 26 foot long.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so we we basically came up with that design.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason for wanting to do this episode was because I know so many people out there are thinking about what units, and there's hundreds of suppliers out there for you know$500 bell tents up to you know quarter million dollar mirror cabins that are available as well, and everything in between.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot of good resources, like the glamping show is the best place to see all these units in person, see quality, you know, feel the units, speak with the suppliers in person.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: But I basically wanted to do this episode to walk through our choices.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: We learned, Evan and I learned so much, and I was like, God, we have to put this in an episode because this would be so valuable to the audience to share what we learned in this in this process, especially now that the units are on site, we've seen them all, we've gone through it.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: So we wanted to share some of those lessons.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: We figured we'd start kind of high level and think like, hey, for our audience, people that are people that are launching their property or expanding their property, and they're asking themselves, what units should I select?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: So we want to wanted to go through that process and try to offer some insights.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: So my first piece of advice is for the audience is to identify your constraints.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: There's you can get lost in the sea of options, but start with your constraints.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: And the very first one is what is a permitted structure or permitted use at your property.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like you have to start there.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: You have to start with your CUP or any sort of building codes that you're working within.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll talk about our two properties.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: So Ponderosa was zoned as an RV park, and we could put RVs on the property.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: So we had to do units that were considered RVIA certified park model cabins.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: That means they have VIN numbers, essentially.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of counties will require that they're on axles.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, our county did not require that they had to be on axles, so we were able to set them directly onto the ground.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: But oftentimes you'll need to put axles on those.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: Other counties, you know, you might have to do, you know, traditional foundations, or you could set them on the ground or be on wheels, or they could be on canvas.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: But basically, you need to look at your county or city zoning ordinance to figure out what constraints and rules you have to work within for your allowable unit types.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it does seem like a lot of it's working really closely with the municipality, with the county, because a lot of times it's bringing education to them.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: They may not realize that a park model RV does not have to be on axles to still be qualified and classified as a park model RV.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so some of it's just the education.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I know, you know, for some other properties that you guys have, you found that that even though it can be classified as a temporary structure of park model RV, they still want to see it on axles.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: But from what I've seen, it's it's really just getting in with them, having those conversations, understanding what they want to see, and then filling any gaps in education that they might need to help get them close to what you're trying to build.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: That is such a good point.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: Off exact Evan's exactly right.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: These are often very nuanced, and the county or the city or the planning department doesn't even know how to classify or approach these.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: So hopefully you have a person like Evan there with you who can educate them.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, like Evan being able to educate our municipality that these are considered RVIAs because they have VIN numbers, they don't necessarily need to be on axles.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: So, us not having to put these units on axles, it saved us what do we think axle costs is 3,000?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we find you're looking at depends on the size of the unit and how many axles you have to do.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: So you're you're about 3,000 bucks an axle set.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: So a unit like this, these weighed about 18,000 pounds.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: So to if we were going to have that permanently on on axles, we'd need three axles for that.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: So you're talking an additional nine thousand dollars on the unit cost just to have that built on, I don't.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then your unit's gonna be about 18 inches higher off the bound, probably.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: And you're gonna need to do steps and you're gonna need to do skirting.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: So that was anyone who's going through this process, definitely confirm that because you, I mean, that's probably a$10,000 savings per unit from not having to do that, which is massive.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it also helps with shipping because the units are gonna ship lower on the trailer, right?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: So it's also cutting 12 to 18 inches of height on our shipping height.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that one, and this is we'll get into the the shipping because the the logistics transport and shipping is a big part of this.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: But if you did transport on axles, then you're gonna have something that the unit itself becomes the trailer.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you are correct, is you're gonna have you'll have some additional height there.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: So the unit itself may have to be a little bit shorter.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: What we need to try to build to be able to transport on US roads is we have to be under 13 and a half feet.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: For some states, it's 14 foot.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: But if you just build 13 and a half foot and under, you can go transport through any any US state.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: So we yeah, if you are gonna build it onto axles, you're gonna increase the height a little bit.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Versus if you don't, you can use some specialized trailers, low boys, double drop trailers that actually drop below axle height so that you can build the unit to be a taller unit.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure one of the big things you discussed was the larger the unit, the more roomy it feels, you know, the higher you guys are able to get on it.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so so that was you know big for us.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll kind of back up.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: So the big constraints, first off, looking at your your planning department and what's allowed.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: The second is gonna be start with your budget, you know, figure out what your cost per unit is, you know, figure out what your budget is, start there.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's gonna help any supplier that you're working with.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then the the next things you're more thinking about, hey, what is what utilities are available at the property, what is the weather like?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then and then you start, wanna go back to your other two big questions, which is who is my customer and why are they coming to my property?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, like those are your two biggest customer experience related questions that you want to have well defined, and those should inform design decisions that you're gonna make down the road.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're designing a unit for a couple, that's extremely different than if you're designing a unit for a family or friend.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: So you want to know who your customer is and who you're designing for, so you can answer some of those questions.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I want to hit on one that you you mentioned there just over a second, Connor, was as far as utilities.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: That becomes a massive part of this is understanding how much power you're able to have and then how many units you can distribute that between.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so one of the things that we ran into with Ponderosa was the amount of power you had to do the number of units you were trying to do only allowed us to do 30 amp hookups.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: As we started to look into that and the things that we wanted to run into that unit, we were really maxing out what you could do on a 30 amp hookup, and we wanted to be able to go to 50, but we weren't able to do that with what the county approved for how many sites there were.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as you guys started to look into it, it may have made more sense to do a couple fewer units, but be able to go to that 50 amp hookup and have additional power for those units.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: As you're starting to talk about putting hot tubs in for the units and running all of that off the same power hookup.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: So as you're thinking of the site plan from a holistic view, I mean, utilities becomes a massive, massive part of that.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and maybe we can really dive into that in a minute here, because it's yeah, there's a lot of trade-offs.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: Once you identify those questions, then another big question for you is gonna be do you want canvas-based units or do you want hardwall units?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's there's pros and cons to both.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: One big thing is people often look at canvas-based units and they say, hey, we can get a one to ten thousand dollar canvas-based unit and we can furnish it for another one to five thousand dollars.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Our unit cost is gonna be, say, 10 grand, 15 grand, and then we can start to make 100 to 150 ADR on that unit.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that's look how good that ROI is.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: One really important thing for people to consider is don't just look at your above-ground costs, and you also want to look at look at your all-in cost per key.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: So including the land cost, your acquisition costs, soft costs, utility costs, the entire project costs, and then you want to divide that by your cost per key, and that's gonna give you a much better idea of your ROI per unit that you're needing to hit, because you know, your above ground might be 10 to 15,000 per unit, but everything else might be 100,000.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: So if you pay 100,000 for your unit and you can operate year round, you get twice the occupancy and maybe you get twice the ADR.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: You're now doing four times the revenue, and maybe your all-in cost per key before was 115,000.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: But with the hardwall unit, you know, maybe it's 200,000.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: So your cost is about 50%, but your revenue might be 4x.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, like you want to keep in mind that macro perspective as well.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: And there are some really good, there are some really great use cases for software units and clamping tents.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: We have them at our property.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: We're about to buy a property that has software units.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: So there are definitely scenarios where that makes sense.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: When you're doing the analysis on that, Connor, how do you factor in replacement costs?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because you definitely a hardwall unit is going to have a longer lifespan than what you're gonna have on a canvas-based one.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: You should, if you're buying a bell tent, it depends on your location and your weather, but you should pretty much plan that you're gonna need to replace those almost every three to five years.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: The exterior layer at the very least.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever is whatever is exposed to the elements, whatever is exposed to the sun, to the rain, whatever exposed to tree branches falling or sap or pitch or leaves, discoloration happens quickly.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Mold can happen quickly if you're in a wet environment.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: So whatever surface is exposed to the sun, it depends on the material type you buy, obviously, and the and the level of quality.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: But three to five years is what we would say before you're gonna need to replace that.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: With a hardwall unit, you know, these are structures, these are you know solid roofing materials.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you can typically expect those to last 30, maybe even 40, 50 years.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's obviously a much higher cost uh initially, but your lifespan is much, much higher.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: The need for replacement on the structure itself, like roof and walls, is lower.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: You really just need to think about replacing your furniture and your linens and the things on the interior that are gonna be exposed to guest wear and tear.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: So there are good cases for you know uh other other kind of downfalls of canvas-based.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like we realized at our property that we have a tra we have train tracks that run by our property that are super loud.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm now realizing, having spent the night at the property several times, that we can't like our canvas units, our guests are gonna be extremely disrupted by trains going by throughout the night.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm thinking like we need to get those replaced as soon as possible because it's gonna be a massive problem.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: Also, critters, snakes, mice, rats, bears, all of those, you know, can get into a canvas-based unit, as well as sound, well, which I just talked about.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then you have to think about climate control.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: So heating and cooling a tent is a lot harder than heating and cooling a hardwall unit.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: So those are all just trade-offs, you know, the listener should be thinking about when choosing between unit types.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: What's a good example of a property that you'd want to go with more of a canvas-based unit for?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: I know you guys have both, right?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: We do have both.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what I'm realizing now is what I've realized in the last 12 months of operating these properties is I'm almost always trying to get rid of canvas and airstreams because you know, they're such a pain in the ass operationally.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: They create operational headaches.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so for me, I'm almost always going to be the only other thing, is like, hey, we want to show quick revenue at a property.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we maybe you don't, there's always going to be capital constraints.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: You probably don't have your property, it is already a sunk cost.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: So usually, you know, that might already be purchased, and you might only have enough capital to buy a handful of hardwall units, and you say, Hey, but we think we can get more revenue if we add 10 bell tents instead of two or three hardwall units, especially if you have a peak like like Yellowstone.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yellowstone's a really good example.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: If you're right by Yellowstone National Park, your 90% of your revenue is gonna come between Memorial Day and Labor Day.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: That also happens to be when the weather is good.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not that advantageous to be year-round because your main demand driver shuts down October to March.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: So in that case, it makes sense.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: But for us in Flagstaff, we think we're gonna have a really good shoulder season.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: We think we're gonna have a strong winter season.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: So us being able to capitalize on all six months of the year is very, very advantageous.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I like what you're saying there as far as being able to come in and start out with a canvas unit.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you build it with the mentality and thought process that you're eventually maybe going to be putting a hard unit on here, you build the utilities in that in that way to where it can accommodate what you're gonna eventually put on, and you can come in, get a bell tent for$1,500, put that on, and then start cash flowing that with the infrastructure.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it is$100,000 a key for the basic infrastructure, and then later you always have the ability to upgrade and go to a hardware unit.
• 20:04
  Shari Heilala (Sponsor): Hello, listeners.
• 20:05
  Shari Heilala (Sponsor): This is Sherry Halala, founder of Sage Outdoor Advisory.
• 20:08
  Shari Heilala (Sponsor): If you're launching an outdoor hospitality project like Clamping, we can help.
• 20:11
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• 20:14
  Shari Heilala (Sponsor): What that means is we look at your specific market and proposed business offering and complete an in-depth analysis to make sure that your planned business will be profitable.
• 20:22
  Shari Heilala (Sponsor): Getting a second opinion on your proposal and forecasted financials is critical to understand before you spend years of your time and hundreds of thousands of dollars.
• 20:30
  Shari Heilala (Sponsor): This is particularly important if you are looking to raise money for your project from a bank or private investors.
• 20:35
  Shari Heilala (Sponsor): They are going to want to see this type of deep dive analysis from an independent third-party specialist in the industry.
• 20:40
  Shari Heilala (Sponsor): We at Sage have completed well over 250 feasibility studies and appraisals in outdoor hospitality in North America in the last four years.
• 20:49
  Shari Heilala (Sponsor): So we understand what it takes to bring a project from concept to reality.
• 20:53
  Shari Heilala (Sponsor): If this sounds like it could be helpful to you, you can go to our website, SageOutdooradvisory.com, and schedule a call with our team.
• 21:00
  Shari Heilala (Sponsor): While you're there, check out our proprietary glamping database map too.
• 21:03
  Shari Heilala (Sponsor): Thanks.
• 21:04
  Shari Heilala (Sponsor): Now back to the show.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yes, exactly.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, that's something that we're doing at Ponderosa is we have like at least 12, maybe eight, 18 bell tents now.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: But what we're gonna often add those as an adjacent unit that people can purchase for their kids or their friends, and it's an upgrade.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, under Canvas substantiated that model.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: If you go to their website, they have a lot of their nicer safari tents that are really on decks, are really well equipped, and then they have an adjacent kids' tent that basically is just like cots and beds and it has a light.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: And those usually go for 80 to 100 bucks more per night.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, like that ROI becomes pretty attractive.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: So, like what we're doing at Ponderosa's, we're gonna have a cabin unit and we're gonna have some with adjacent bell tents.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: It it could double your occupancy, double your persons that can occupy that site and really increase ADR.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: So that's another creative way to think about it.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: We'll kind of focus in a little bit on the hardwall and get into some of the details of Ponderosa.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: I know what we wanted.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Our main customer that we were going after was couples, friends, solo travelers, road trippers.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: Our biggest comp five minutes down the road, they were the opposite.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: They were really focused on larger units, 400 square feet, and they could accommodate four to eight guests.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: They're really focused on families and retirees.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: We wanted to focus on a younger demographic.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: We wanted to focus on couples.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: We wanted to focus on minimalism, but a really sexy, a really sexy environment that had great views that looked out into our beautiful forest that brought the outside in.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: So a couple of our requirements was we wanted at least have one wall of windows that had floor-to-ceiling glass.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: I know Travis Chambers famously did a study on Airbnbs that were really successful.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the highest contributors to high rates was floor-to-ceiling glass, which is expensive, but we wanted to put that in.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: I guess, Evan, what do you think?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think is the cost difference between maybe let's just say a wall that's 50% window or 30% window versus a wall that's 100% floor-to-ceiling glass?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like what might be like an approximate cost difference there?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's a tough one.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's glass is expensive, as you said, and it's so much of it's gonna determine where you're getting that manufactured, what you're looking at.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so one of the ways that we were able to focus on getting the the cost down for for the units that we did at Ponderosa Finds is we actually went and invested into a manufacturing facility overseas, and that's where we built those.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I spent a lot of time at glass factories, going through and seeing the whole process of how it's how it's built.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's not that much of an additional cost when you're going straight to the source and working with where they're actually creating that that glass.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're talking about you know, working with domestic glass manufacturing companies, it's going to it's gonna be a significant difference on that.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's trying to think as far as percentage increase that you would be looking at for something like that.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if a full, full Florida, you know, if you did like the opening style, Florida ceiling, where it's the panels that can actually open, and you did that on like a large face, so something we're talking, you know, eight foot or four, you know, eight, ten foot, you could easily be ten thousand dollars into a glass wall, just like that.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you go to something that's fixed, you'll reduce that cost a little bit from there.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of 10,000 at the high end of that.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other thing is going to be what you're you're getting for the blast.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like the quality of glass varies dramatically.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Are you going with double pane and with the insulation?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Are you going with just single-pane glass?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's pretty wide spectrum there.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: But as you've seen, it's it's definitely one of those that's worth making the investment in.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the things that we'll probably talk a lot on on the units is figuring out how you can have the best and highest perceived value on something and getting the highest feeling quality, but doing it where there's there's lower investment costs.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something that I think you've done an exceptional job of is figuring out what are the important things to spend money on, where are the areas that we can save and reduce our investment costs.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because at the end of the day, it's it's all about trying to maximize the ROI on these units.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: And going back to like who is your customer and why are they coming to the property?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: Our customer is probably corporate workers, high-earning couples, road trippers, remote workers.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: And these are a nature and wellness escape.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: They probably live in the city, they live in an urban area.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a huge, probably the biggest part of our customer experience was people feeling like they're connected to nature.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: So we wanted those windows to bring the outside in.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then we also need the data supported, the ROI there.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's a big cost, like Evan said, might be another five, 10, maybe even more to have a wall of windows, but that was an important design choice for us.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: Another big one that the data has showed me time and time again is really a must is like some sort of kitchenette.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: Having there's a lot, I would almost always recommend a mini fridge and a single burner stove or a two-burner stove.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: And whether that's electric or propane goes back to the utility constraints question that we brought up earlier.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: But having a sink and ideally a microwave, but again, your electricity constraints.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: In a perfect world, you have a stove, you have a sink, you have a microwave, and you have a fridge.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason that's so important is because that's what's really going to help your occupancy.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Your average length of stay is going to be a really big deal.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: Now, at the outpost, at the outpost Grand Canyon, where it's people going for a day trip at the almost no one goes to see the Grand Canyon for more than one day.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: So us having a kitchenette there is not the most important thing in the world because our average length of stay is like 1.6 days.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: So it's people don't need to cook that much.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: But Flagstaff is very different.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like we want people staying three, you know.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm hoping our average length of stay is two and a half days, maybe maybe high twos.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so, in order for people to do that, unless you have a bunch of food options within walking distance or within a five-minute drive, like having an option for people to cook is going to be extremely important.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't have a kitchenette, they might not book you at all, or they might only book you for one, maybe two nights instead of three, maybe four nights.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: So that's really helping your occupancy figure.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Another big one that was a requirement for us was we knew we needed climate control.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: So we knew we needed a mini split.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: We can dive into that more in a sec.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think the bathroom is such a huge touch point for a feeling of premium, a feeling of luxury.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's also why airstreams are so hard because their bathrooms are so shitty.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but we, you know, you want you want something that's roomy, that's luxurious, that ideally has some sort of natural light coming in.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: Evan designed these great over-the-shower skylights for us.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then we wanted, I basically would say always try to go with the glass panel.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: Having a flimsy plastic shower curtain does not exhibit a feeling of luxury.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Your vanity mirror, your vanity sink, those are really key points for a premium feel.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: So you want to make sure those are really nice.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: Also, for the ladies out there, my girlfriend would always tell me you want to have a shower that has a wand option because when girls are showering, they don't want to get their hair wet.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: So they want to have an option to take a shower without getting their hair wet.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's something I never knew until I had a girlfriend.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: But the Evan, can you think of anything that I missed that was like really big considerations for us in the design process?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's pretty well got it in terms of the you know, the overall design.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one of the things is kind of going back to the site planning as a whole.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, with what we were able to drive on these units was having customization.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so you guys came in and said, hey, this is exactly what we're looking to do.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we were able to be selective on where Windows, skylights, things like that went, and thinking about it between optimizing the view and the location you guys were gonna put it, but also making sure we didn't have windows in places where it's gonna be facing an adjacent unit that's right next to it.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so being strategic about the units as they stack up and you you have things for the site plan.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, right, it's a lot of times you have units that are close together.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: You may pick one whole side where you're not gonna have any windows so that you can actually put compress things, put them a little closer together.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: So just thinking about again, a holistic view of where it's going.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: And that's another that's another good point that is, you know, for the listeners is thinking, hey, do you want something off the shelf or do you want something custom?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that's an important choice.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, as more glamping operators and unique state operators have popped up, you know, competition is becoming more of a factor than it was.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: So having something that is truly unique and defensible protects your cash flow, your revenue in the future.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: So having a totally, totally unique, having a totally unique future, a totally unique unit protects your future revenue.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you get off the shelf like belt or a dome or you know, even an ood cabin, ouds are amazing.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: And two years ago there was none, you know, it was the best unit.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: It still is an amazing unit, but now there's hundreds, you know, and they've they've done, they've they've grown quickly.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: So now you might have other mirror mirror cabins popping up in your market.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, that might not be a huge deal, but it is something to keep into consideration.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: So we wanted to choose custom units that no one else was offering.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: And there's very few, there's very few providers in the US that are offering A-frames.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: Zook has one, it's really expensive.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's like 180,000, maybe 150,000, super expensive.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then Cabin Pro LLC out of Pennsylvania, they built a really cool one that was pretty cost effective, but that was just the transportation was prohibitive because it was so far.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: But no one was providing this type of unit.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you look at all the unique state properties in the US, I only know of three properties besides ours that are using A-frames as like their dominant unit type.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I saw that gap and I wanted us to design something that one was unique in our market around the Grand Canyon and Flagstaff, and two, was unique in general on Airbnb and would really hop off the page.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that was where it was really advantageous for us to be able to go to Sandbox and go to Evan's team and design a custom unit.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, going through custom, it will take a little bit longer.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: You might, you know, you might be making design choices where you're your own guinea pig because you're designing something for the first time versus an off-the-shelf product.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: You it might be a little bit cheaper, you might be able to get it a little bit faster, it might be a little bit more tested.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: So like there are those benefits to keep in mind, but again, it's less defensible.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean that's a big thing.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: So with you know, with what we've done with Sandy Vance, we we do we've got layout builds where we've built these things a hundred times, and then we have a full custom line and custom custom division.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so exactly what you said there is there there's huge advantages on both sides of the table there.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when it comes to getting something that is off the shelf, it's been refined.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: When it's built, been built multiple times.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you've got things that have been tested, they've had issues, they've fixed those issues, they've figured out it's been out there long enough that they figured out how they're going to handle warranty.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: You get economies of scale when you're starting to build the same thing multiple times, you can be buying larger batches and you can reduce costs there.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that's some of the massive advantages you go to getting something that's you know that's off the shelf.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: But when you look at what we're trying to create with these experiential stays, that's where custom starts to make so much more sense.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's like build something exactly like you said that is unique and matches the experience that you're trying to craft at the overall resort.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Bring that through, carry that through the unit and have something that is specific.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it just, yeah, it when people are looking for uh for places to stay, they're looking for the experience, they're looking for unique.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: And to your point on the the ood cabins, like I've I love those.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: I've stayed in them multiple times, but I've stayed in them in different places all across the country.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: And now I kind of feel like that I've I've done that.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: I've filled that.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking for something different now when I'm looking to stay a place.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: So even if I'm going to a completely new location and I see something with a nude cabin on it, then they've done that.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna try something different now.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so having custom, you at least get to that, oh, here's something new, it's fresh.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I totally agree.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that was, I think, one of the things working with Evan, what Sandy Vans and now Sandbox has done so well is Evan's background is in manufacturing engineering.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: So he has direct contacts with the manufacturers instead of middlemen.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: And that's one of the things that's been a huge competitive advantage for Sandy Vans and now for Sandbox.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: And normally you would think a custom unit would be way more expensive than what's on the market, but our sandbox units were the largest square footage footprint, large foot, the largest square footage of any of the units that we got.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: They were also the most complicated framing design, but they actually were one of our cheapest units compared to our other cabins.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: So we were able to get our unit, which was 324 square feet for 75k.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's before any transportation cost, but for the unit itself.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that's super competitive with what's on the market.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: And if I could go back, I probably would add a few more luxury touch items to that design.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'd probably add another 5, maybe 10K in.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: So it's more like an 85K unit plus the shipping cost, but that's super competitive in the space for kind of what we're seeing.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: So just because it's custom doesn't necessarily it need means it needs to be more, a lot more expensive.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: Ours, even though we went custom, was still one of our cheapest units.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: Although in hindsight, I wish we put a little bit more money into the finishes, which we'll do in our next version.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, our first one was kind of a test.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: It was only six.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna get better and better.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's a good one.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know the goal on these ones was to get the budget down as as low as we possibly could.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: But that was, like you said, it's a huge learning is you can spend a little bit more money in a few areas and you can take that unit, you invest another five, maybe 10,000.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, probably not even$10,000, put another$5,000 into that unit, and it's gonna feel like a$150,000 unit just by having that last 5% go to the better materials, spend a little bit, get that nicer flooring, get the nice countertops, things like that.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Make a world of difference.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's good learning, right?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: We wanted to come into these and get it at the best price point possible.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now we're gonna start spending a little bit more money on the right touches.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna have to cut this podcast a little bit short because I have to run.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're gonna have to do a part two to dive into the second half of this, but I did want to get it out.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: So, Evan, you were gonna be at the glamping show this year, correct?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Correct, yes.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and you'll be walking around.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: What's the best way for anyone to get in touch with you if they wanna, you know, share their project, talk about what you know, what type of unit they're looking for and get some quotes.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: What's the best way for them to get in touch with you or with Sandbox?
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, best way is probably just go under our website, sandboxstay.com.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: All of our contact info is there.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: You'll find out a little more information about the projects that we're that we've completed or actively working on, then learn a little bit more about what our process is.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for coming on, Evan.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're gonna have a part two of this and finish our conversation.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: But thanks so much for your help.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm stoked about our first two units, and we didn't even talk about the units that are going to Desert Reef in September, which are insane.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: So we can talk, we can talk more about our second custom design units that are coming out.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is a good time to put a little couple little teasers, a little images up there of what's coming.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm so excited that's it's all in production right now, and we'll be we'll have those landed in about six weeks.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Six, seven weeks will be on site.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: Sweet.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm sure we'll have some pictures of those at the Glampin show.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful thing.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: All right, thanks everybody.