Latest / From the Founding of the City Archives - The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies / Nobody Beats Camillus
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to the Partial Historians. Dr G 0:19 We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battle's waged and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr Rad Dr G 0:33 and I'm Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad and I am Dr G 1:02 Dr G and we are deep within the year of 389 BCE? Dr Rad 1:08 I don't know how deep we actually are, Dr G. Time-space continuum is so confusing at this moment in time, particularly because you and I are in very different places right now. Dr G 1:20 This is true. I have little subheadings in my notes that are entitled "trying to figure out the chronology". Dr Rad 1:28 Damn Diodorus and Livy for not getting together and somehow figuring this all out. Dr G 1:32 It is very confusing. We'll get into how confusing at some point, I'm sure, in this episode. But I think you have maybe more consistency in terms of the narrative flow at this point in time than I do. Dr Rad 1:42 Look this is true, Livy is the master of the Camillus narrative that I am following right now. So Dr, G, just to do a bit of a recap about what we talked about last time with 389 obviously very much the aftermath of whatever happened between Rome and the Gauls. Rome's in its rebuilding era, very exciting, although they're not doing it particularly well, according to Livy, they just kind of slap slapping together whatever little dwellings they can. Dr Rad 2:06 Chaotic approaches to street organization. It's a mess. Dr Rad 2:17 I know it's really letting the Roman reputation for pragmatism and organization down. Classic. But really where we finished up within my account is that in this phase where Rome's trying to, you know, regenerate after everything that has happened, Rome's enemies are sensing weakness and deciding that they might try and take advantage of that. And therefore Rome, whilst feeling very sad that it apparently has no friends and is sitting alone in the playground, has decided that the only thing to do in this sort of a scenario is to make Camillus a dictator again. Dr G 2:56 Of course, a very Livy solution to the problem at hand, I would say. Dr Rad 3:03 What better solution than a Livy solution, I always say. Now I didn't, I don't think I actually mentioned last time who Camillus had chosen as his master of the horse, his sidekick. And no surprises, Dr G, it was Gaius Servilius Ahala. Dr G 3:19 Ahala. An excellent name for a master of the horse. Dr Rad 3:24 Yeah. I think they, I think these guys are often master of the horses, the ponies. But I, you know what? Again, I should have gone back and checked but I feel like I often have talked about them as a master of the horse for somebody who's a dictator. Dr G 3:37 Interesting. Yeah. So the role of the master of the horse is, it's not as obvious as it sounds. He's not just in charge of a horse. He is the delegated representative of the dictator for a whole bunch of stuff. Dr Rad 3:51 Yeah. Dr G 3:51 And can also lead. So whenever Rome has what feels like a really deliberate central problem that they cannot resolve with their quasi sort of spread of whoever else might be a magistrate at that point in time. It's like we just need one holistic solution. Having the dictator in play is a way to streamline all of the discussion out of the picture, being like we're solutions focused. And whatever this guy says is the thing we're gonna do. Dr Rad 4:22 Yeah, and that's why Camillus is a perfect choice. Dr G 4:24 Yeah, Camillus loves this kind of thing. Dr Rad 4:26 Yeah, exactly. So Camillus takes stock of the situation, very dangerous, very risky for Rome, and he decides that all legal business must cease immediately. They have to deal with the problems at hand. So he Livy's, of course, an army, the juniors, specifically, he only allows all the men in if they can still prove that they're hot stuff. Dr G 4:54 There's some kind of test. Be like, Hold this pillum and throw it as far as you can. Dr Rad 4:59 I would love to know. I would love to know what the Camillus test is, testing out older men and being like, I don't know if you still got what it takes. Yeah, I think you're getting too old for this shit, but my translation says they had to prove that they still possessed any figure. Dr G 5:13 Oh, wow. Okay, so everybody shirts off, like "those abs". Dr Rad 5:20 Oh, man, that's more of a four pack than a six pack. Get out. So he organizes them all into centuries once he's got all his kids together and a few silver foxes that have really kept it toy. So now Camillus has his army. He makes sure that they're obviously properly equipped face the dangers ahead. It's time to split them into three. Dr G, he's going to send one lot against the Etruscans under Lucius Aemelius. Dr G 5:52 Okay, yes, they need to be dealt with. Dr Rad 5:54 Yes. He's then going to use the second group to stay and make sure Rome is guarded. Dr G 6:01 Ooo clever. Dr Rad 6:02 Could overlook that? You could overlook that and just send everybody away, and then, uh oh, Gallic sack time, all over again. Now they're going to be there under the military tribune Aulus Manlius. Dr G 6:14 Okay, Dr Rad 6:15 Yeah, and the third section is going to be his group, and he's going to lead them against those pesky Volscians, Dr, G now they came up, I think, in an earlier time period in your account. Dr G 6:27 Yes, and this is where I think the first problem of chronology comes up. So Diodorus Siculus puts all of this sort of military action at the back end of 390 BCE. And this does mean that he has quite a few years to come in his narrative history, where we're getting a repetition or a confusion of names of military tribunes or dictators or any other magistrates, and even to the point where he sometimes mentions a consulship in this period of what will be confusing chronology, and everything is really happening at a really quick pace, as far as he's concerned. And then we get these sort of fallow years where nothing feels like it's happening. And he just mentions that there's some magistrates in Rome, and then moves back to the more interesting stuff happening in Greece or Syracuse, or wherever he's most interested in. So when we think about, just to recap what Diodorus Siculus is saying about the back end of 390 - he does say that there is this fulsome march that Camillus goes on with his forces, where it's about going against the Volscians, then it's about going against the Aequians, then it's heading up to Sutrium, which will come up again later. But we don't really need to know about that for now, but it's involved with the Etruscans at this point. So all of these groups that have just come up in Livy for 389 have already been effectively navigated by Camillus in 390 so this is our first point of confusion. The chronology is going to get more out of sync before it gets back in sync, I think. So, I'm interested to see how Livy goes through this narrative, because I've already given a narrative for what's happening with Camillus and the Volscians, but I imagine Livy's got some different details. Dr Rad 8:25 Yeah. Look, I think it all hinges on the way Camillus factors into the Gallic sack of Rome. I think the way that Livy painted it, it would have been hard to have all of this stuff happening in 390 and so for him, it makes more sense to have it this way. But obviously we don't know what his source material was for all of this in any great depth, although, of course, now that it's post Gallic sack, apparently it's very reliable material, Dr G 8:52 If he's not talking to the Furii, I don't know what's going on. Dr Rad 8:58 So anyway, it's going to be near a place called Lanuvium that Camillus engages with the Volscians, which, and you know, my geography of this area is shaky, I believe is south east of Rome. Dr G 9:11 Sounds about right. I'll allow it. Dr Rad 9:14 Thank you. Thank you. Now the Volscians, of course, are thinking that the Romans are going to be very easy to deal with, because they just have the absolute stuffing knocked out of them by this attack from the Gauls. And so they're thinking, this is our chance. We're just going to wipe them off the face of the planet once and for all, those upstart Romans. But they completely change their tune when they realize that Camillus is the guy they're going to be facing? Dr G 9:43 Uh oh Dr Rad 9:43 Yeah. Now Livy apparently, quite likes having this idea that a Roman commander has such presence and such a reputation that when he shows up, Rome's enemies start quaking in their little boots. So Camillus just has to be. Be there for the Volscians to be afraid. Be very afraid. So the Volscians Try and erect a rampart to make it more difficult for the Romans to actually get to them. And do you know what Camilla says, Come on, baby, light my fire. He just sets that on fire because it was made of wood. The fools so easily defeated. Dr G 10:21 I think a rampart could stop me?! Dr Rad 10:23 Yeah, exactly. I've got matches, baby. And the wind was in the favor of the Romans. So it means that the flames, the heat, the smoke from this fire that Camillus and his forces have started, it's all getting in the way of the Volscians and making them just like terrified and panicked. So the Romans don't find it very hard to get into the Volscian camps. They managed to naturally defeat the Volscians. They kill an entire bunch of them, although Livy does not say that they were wiped from the face of the earth, as he has many times. So I'm glad he doesn't go quite that far. Camillus then decides he's going to split the booty from this conquest among the soldiers. Now, this is a bit surprising for the men who have followed Camillus, because he's not known for being generous like this. I mean, he's a freaking rock star, but he doesn't usually do this kind of thing with the men who are following him, so it's even more of a bonus. They're just riding on such a high at this moment. Dr G 11:25 Also, historically, he has gotten this wrong in the past. Dr Rad 11:27 Well, yes, I mean, maybe it's because he's like, Hmm, I can't do math in my head if I don't have my little pocket abacus here, I think maybe I should just wait? Dr G 11:41 Last time I forgot about it, and then I had to go back and do the maths. And that really didn't work out. So maybe if I do the maths Now, everyone's like, Oh, thank goodness. Dr Rad 11:51 Yeah. Now this is an interesting quirk of Camillus, at least the way that he's being constructed in Livy's account. In that particularly at this moment in time, Roman commanders obviously had, I think, a reasonable amount of leeway as to what they did with booty that was captured, and you probably would be expected to give booty to the men who fought with you. That's kind of the appeal of fighting with these sorts of commanders. It's kind of how you get paid. This isn't a professional army, much as Livy might have tried to make it seem more professional by now. Yes, they're not a standing army. They're not a standing force. Dr G 12:30 So and even though we have talked about the idea of military pay exactly into the picture a few years ago, now, there doesn't seem to be good, solid evidence that that is happening consistently at this point in time? Dr Rad 12:45 Oh, for sure. And I think even Livy said it was, I think it was always meant to be military pay for the campaign in Veii, you know, and things like that. I don't know that it was always meant to be an ongoing thing. Dr Rad 12:59 Well, we certainly don't get any insights from our written source material that this is an ongoing situation, and we are going to find, I think, just a foreshadow what's going to happen later in this century, a little bit, is that we will see it becoming a more regular practice, yes, but certainly if it is a regular practice now, the written sources that we have can't see it enough to tell us about it. They don't, their source material doesn't have the insights that suggest that it's happening consistently. Dr Rad 14:24 Yes, I mean, there's been those vague references every now and then since the whole they thing of defeated enemies having to foot the bill for soldiers pay and things like that. But I don't know that it's like an expectation on behalf of the men who are serving that they're always going to get, like a pay from the state of Rome, if you will, as opposed to just even, I mean, even if you were, I think obviously one of the big enticements of going out and risking your life against enemies would be that the commander would reward you with something, yeah. So, yeah. So we've got that whole situation. Camillus then proceeds to chase after any Volscians who decided to run away, run away, lays waste to the Volscian countryside. Eat that. I'll show you when Rome is weak, and he makes the Volscians surrender, apparently, after 70 years of war, is what Livy says. Now, I don't know where his math is coming from, what he's talking about, because there has been a lot of conflict going on, and I don't know what moment he's allegedly sort of harking back to, apparently, my Livy translator is like, he's talking about conflict that started under Tarquinius Superbus. And I'm like, well, that's a lot more than 70 years then, so I don't know what's going on. That all seems very random. Dr G 14:57 Look, the Romans and the Volscians have not got along for. For as long as the Republic has been in existence. So, yes, unless we're somehow counting rare moments of peace between the two peoples as detracting from the whole number from the start of the Republic, and then being like, well, 70 years of conflict, it is then. Dr Rad 15:17 Yeah, it just seems a bit arbitrary. But who knows what he's drawing on for this thing. Maybe it's just, he's like, look, I want to, just like, put a stop gap on this whole thing with the Volscians. I'm ready to put it to bed. And so he's potentially referring to this idea of diditio, total and unconditional surrender. Dr G 15:37 Maybe, all right, okay, very fancy. So they really win against the Volscians in this moment. Is the hard way to take away from this, yeah, look. Dr Rad 15:47 I mean, I don't want to get ahead of myself here, but it's not the last we're going to hear. And every time and they will wipe from the face of the earth, then just next year, it's like, oh, and they filled it a new army, fantastic. Dr G 16:04 Like some sort of zombie. They're back from the dead. Dr Rad 16:09 The only way to actually adequately explain the warfare of this period, if there is actually a zombie apocalypse happening at this time, Dr G 16:17 Central Italy is a dangerous place, my friends, but not for the reasons that we thought. Dr Rad 16:21 No. Exactly, they really left a lot of details out. So Camillus then decides that he's going to go from volscian territory and fight the Aequians. Dr, G, yeah, they also were getting ready for war against Rome, but they're still in the process of getting ready. So they're putting on their mascara, but they haven't finished doing their hair. The curlers are still in. The face mask is still on. And so the Romans managed to catch the Aequians off guard at a place called bullae, which I think you also had in your particular account. Indeed, they again, managed to catch the camp and also the city, just like that. I mean, this is the Camillus magic. It's, it's almost so easy. It's like, why would you even bother? Dr G 17:04 Look, he's a very impressive young lad, isn't he? Dr Rad 17:08 This is why Camillus is dictator, Dr G, because they know it's all just going to fall into place. Dr G 17:13 Just gotta show up and smile, wink at the enemy, and they all just collapse, being like, I give up. Dr Rad 17:20 Exactly. Yeah. I kind of think of it being like, you know those old movies where women like faint when a handsome man winks at them, except in this case, like Camillus, like goes, and they always go. So Camillus is doing very well. However, Rome is not prospering in all directions, because, of course, Camillus is not everywhere, so the Camillus magic is limited to where he is. So all of the Etruscans are fighting, as we know. They have an evil plan to take down Rome. They've decided to besiege Sutrium, which you were talking about, yeah. Now this is probably because Sutrium were allied with Rome at this moment in time, and so naturally, they send envoys to the Roman senate, saying, help us. Camillus Furius, you're our only hope. I said his name backwards. Help us, Marcus Furius Camillus, you're our only hope. Now, the Sutrians, they are in a very dire state. It's so bad that they can't actually hold out until the Romans manage to arrive and send force against them. They just don't have the manpower. They're, you know, they're trying their best, but their men are completely worn out and can't hold out any longer, so they have to surrender to the Etruscan forces. And there's a very sad little picture that Livy paints of a little trail of refugees having to leave their hometown, leave their homes. They have nothing. They only have the clothes on their backs. They have no weapons. So very sad little scene, yeah, but then Camillus unexpectedly shows up exactly the sutures naturally say, Please, please. You're the one we've been waiting for. You're the one that we want. You are the one we want. The leading men say, You got to help us. You know, there's got to be something that you can do here. In the background, there's very effective sound montage going on of women screaming and crying and children doing much the same thing. They've been dragged along, obviously, by their men folk. And Camillus says, please, please stop your tears. They are unnecessary. I shall soon be the one to make the Etruscans cry the bitterest tears they have ever shed. So he says, look, put down the tiny amount of luggage that you managed to get you pretty much just have the clothes in your back. So just like, stay put, wait in this spot. He leaves them with, like, a little Roman force just I suppose, in case anything happens, takes weapons, leads his soldiers out. Luckily for Camillus the victors, they got sloppy in overly confident, as is so often the case with Rome's enemies, they left the gates of the conquered city wide open. Dr G 20:26 Oh, warfare 101, I haven't read that book. Dr Rad 20:31 Exactly. The conquering troops, they were so focused on just getting booty that they're enjoying themselves far too much, going through everyone's houses and ransacking them and raiding them to bother with lucks. They're also spread out all over the place. There's no organization here, and so Camillus is able to retake sutrium immediately. That's right, this is a place that changed hands twice in one day. Dr G 21:02 An incredible moment in Roman history. Dr Rad 21:07 That is the Camillus magic. Yeah, the Etruscans are now slotted exactly what Camillus promise has come to pass. They're not able to get themselves together in a united fashion, and so the Romans take full advantage of that. They try and run out of the city gates, which they had forgotten to lock. But Camillus hadn't forgotten to lock those gates. Oh, no, no, no, no. He makes sure that they were closed. So the Etruscans are therefore trapped. Some of the Etruscans try and fight back, you know, grab swords, you know, try and gather together into little groups, form little units so that they can fight. And there may have been some clash worthy of recording, perhaps, but the Romans had cleverly sent a message throughout the town that no one would be harmed unless they were carrying a weapon. And so the Etruscans perhaps thought for a moment and thought, hmm, I could walk out with my sword, or I could live to see another day, if I just put it down on the kitchen table here and walk quietly out the front door. And so all in all, it's a fairly peaceful end to the conflict here and this. People of sutrium are basically back in their own beds that night with not much missing from their homes and not that much damage done. Dr G 22:45 What an eventful yet scary day. So much trauma. Dr Rad 22:51 If that is all true then, wow, yeah, that must have been quite the turn of events. Dr G 22:56 I just feel like, you know, putting myself in the place of one of the citizens of Sutrium being like, Oh, what a beautiful morning, oh, what a beautiful day. And then be like, Oh no. Like, run away. Dr Rad 23:09 Yeah, they woke up in a siege, and they're in the depths of despair because they're like, we've sent for help, but the Romans aren't here in time. Drat. Oh, where is me? And they leave. And then all of a sudden, Camillus shows up, and here he is to save the day. Dr G 23:30 Goodness me. Okay, so that's very dramatic. Now it is the case that Didorus Siculus does mention this, and yes, he doesn't talk about how it only happens in a single day here. Dr Rad 23:45 Crafty Dr G 23:49 But it might be the case that he or another source places this event at a slightly different time. So we're gonna see about that. Okay, interesting. Sutrium does come up elsewhere. Dr Rad 24:01 Okay, well, that is the end of 389 BC, for me. Dr G. Dr G 24:07 Ooh Dr Rad 24:08 I know. So would you like to begin our journey into 388 BCE? Dr G 24:16 I certainly would not. I have so many things to tell you about 389 before we move forward. Dr Rad 24:22 Oh, please. What is happening in Sicily? Dr G 24:25 Oh, I'm so glad you asked. I've got many things to tell you. But first of all, I do have a little excerpt from Dionysius of Halicarnassus, who's incredibly fragmentary for this period. And this might line up with something that happens a bit later in Livy. You'll have to tell me. But in book 14, Dionysius of Halicarnassus does talk about the sacred hut to Mars on the Palatine. Dr Rad 24:51 Oh, okay Dr G 24:54 And we know that this is quite significant, first of all, because of all of the hills that survived the Gallic sack, the Palatine wasn't one of them. Dr Rad 25:03 Right Dr G 25:03 So the fact that we seem to have the continuation of the sacred hut of Mars on the Palatine seems to be of great significance, particularly because they find a staff inside that hut. So even after the Gallic sack has happened, there seems to be the hut has survived. So the Gauls did not take the hut down, but also that there is a sacred staff that is found inside that is thought to have belonged to Romulus and being used for taking the auspices. So this seems to be a little, a little significant religious ritual detail that Dionysus of Halicarnassus offers us. And I cannot place it directly in a particular chronology, because we're dealing with fragments Dr Rad 25:49 Interesting, yeah, look, I can't say that. I recall coming across that yet as a detail. Dr G 25:56 And I think part of the issue is that Camillus is going to be dictator later on as well. Dr Rad 26:04 He will, yes, this is not the end of his dictatorship series. Collect all seven! Dr G 26:09 Yeah. I was like, sorry, listeners, but that's not the last time we're going to see Camillus be the dictator. Dr Rad 26:14 I mean, why would it be? Look at what he's just accomplished. I mean, that all seemed to happen in like a week. Dr G 26:21 He's very good when he gets into the role. So, you know, this could be something that is a reference that's going to happen a little bit later on. So I'm not going to say this is definitely something that's happening in 389 but it is something that seems to be quite interesting. And I might get to come back to it at some point, and I just have this little detail. Dr Rad 26:40 Well, it's certainly significant that. Look, I could be jumping to conclusions here, but a hut doesn't strike me as a stone building. Dr G 26:51 Not necessarily no. Dr Rad 26:54 Particularly if it's something that dates to a more Archaic period, which is what it kind of sounds like if there's associations with Mars and Romulus, which kind of lends more support to our theory that Rome was not burned to the ground during the Gallic sack of Rome. Sure, I'm sure there were fires, but I don't think the whole city was destroyed, and the archeology we have of actual stone buildings supports that. Dr G 27:27 All right, well, you're going to hate what Dionysus - Dionysius, sorry, you're going to hate what Dionysius says about this little hut, because he says, In Rome, a sacred hut of Mars built near the summit of the Palatine was burned to the ground together with the houses around it, but an area was being cleared for the purpose of restoring buildings, and it was preserved unharmed in the midst of the surrounding ashes. So they first of all say it was destroyed, and then they say it wasn't destroyed. But they also were referring to what appears to be the Gallic sack at that point, like everything was burnt down, but this hut seems to have remained untouched on the Palatine. Dr Rad 28:09 Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, look, as I say, I'm not denying that there probably was some damage and there were some fires, but the level of catastrophe that Livy builds up where, you know, the Romans are weeping as they're watching the City being destroyed. I question. Dr G 28:29 Fair enough, we're in a period of high levels of questions. Dr Rad 28:33 Yeah. Dr G 28:33 So, for instance, Diodorus Siculus lists a whole bunch of military tribunes and the chronology, because his chronology is marked by the eponymous archon of Athens. Dr Rad 28:46 Yeah. Dr G 28:46 And this is where things get really tricky, because we can't sync it up to the fasti, because the fasti end up being missing in this period as well. Dr Rad 28:54 Yeah. Dr G 28:54 So the fasti Capitolini aren't around, we don't have a consistent narrative from Dionysus of Halicarnassus and and we have Livy and Diodorus Siculus, and that's kind of it, in terms of, like, what's happening with the chronology. And it's very confusing, because he starts talking about eponymus Archons in Athens that date to the 380s - the mid 380s - and we're not through any of the things that are going on with Rome. He doesn't mention things going on, but the names that he mentions match up to a certain degree with figures from this period. But because we can't confirm which is who was what in it does make it really tricky, but he mentions what ends up being 386, to 85 nothing really happens. He also ends up mentioning what's going on in 385, to 384, he talks about consuls for that year. We'll see if that ends up being true. He also then talks about some other folk in 381 to 380 those names tend to match up quite nicely with 389 which is a bit weird, but maybe we'll see that come up again. But I think the more important thing, and you've already flagged it, is Meanwhile, in Sicily, yes, we need to have some sort of little theme tune for this, Dr Rad 30:21 I know, some kind of windpipe. Dr G 30:23 I'll find some sort of artifact that I can place into the edit. So "Meanwhile in Sicily". Last time we encountered Dionysius, the Tyrant of the Syracusans, he had been horrific to people on mainland Italy and had wreaked a path of destruction. Had been barbaric in his practices, but now he's having a great time because he's back home, and the Carthaginians also seem to be leaving him alone. So he scared everybody off, and everybody's like, you know what? Let's just leave that guy alone for now, when he gets angry, he's terrified, but this means that he has the opportunity to go back to his favorite peacetime activity, which is poetry. Dr Rad 31:07 Ah, yes, you did allude to some poetry. Dr G 31:09 Yes, he's a poetic man, and if you recall in the past, people have laughed at his poetry. Dr Rad 31:18 That's right, that's right. I forgot about that, poor man. Dr G 31:22 He's not having a great time with his poetic career. Nevertheless, he persists. Not only that, he has crafted a court of artistic folk around him to help inspire and cultivate his talent. One of these people is a guy called Philoxenos, who is known as a writer of dithyrambs, a type of poem. Dr Rad 31:48 Right Dr G 31:49 And he is from the island of Cythera, and he was enslaved as a child when the Athenians turned up there and took over the place, and he was placed under the control of a guy called Melanippides, who happened to himself be a poet interested in dithyrambs, and he educates this kid. And Philoxenos never sort of seems to get out of the slavery thing one way or the other. He's in Syracuse, and he's in the court of Dionysius, and he's asked his perspective on some of the poetry being performed. He decides to be honest in his criticism. Dr Rad 32:31 Wow, okay, Dr G 32:33 Now whether this is a sign that he had already been manumitted or a sign that he was having a bad day, and he just wanted to test the boundaries. He replies with frankness, and apparently this offends the tyrant of Syracuse. Dr Rad 32:47 I'm shocked that he's so sensitive. Dr G 32:49 I don't know, you know. And so he then tells his servants to take philosophies off to the quarries Dr Rad 32:59 Like the mines. Dr G 33:01 Yeah, get that guy out of here. Send him to hard labor camp. Dr Rad 33:05 Yeah. Listeners, just so you're aware if you're going to be sent anywhere, particularly as a slave, potentially, you do not want to be sent to the mines. That is a death sentence where whoever's in charge of those minds just get to benefit a little bit from you working before you die. Dr G 33:26 Yes, they do just work you to death. Yeah. And so that's not a great day for Philoxenos. He was like, okay, so be it. I opened my mouth. I don't know what I expected anyway. Philoxenos' friends who remain at court do a petition to get him returned from the quarries. Like, wow, how are you going to improve your poetry? Unless you can take back, like, constructive criticism, you got to be able to take on board the feedback, man. And so Dionysius is like, fine, bring him back out of the quarry, bring him back to the palace. Let's have dinner. We'll try this again. Shall we the drinking goes on for hours, you know, let's talk poetry. Let's have a conversation about this verse that I've put together. And then he turns directly to Philoxenos and says, What do you think about these lines? And Philoxenos refuses to say anything. Dr Rad 34:29 Okay, smart. Phew. I can unclench. Dr G 34:31 Dionysius is offended by that Dr Rad 34:33 Oh Dr G 34:34 Sends him back to the quarries. Dr Rad 34:36 No, come on. Dr G 34:38 Not good enough. No answer is still a criticism I'm not willing to accept as the tyrant of Syracuse. Dr Rad 34:45 That's lame. I have to say like I was gonna say, as someone who's a loud mouth and finds it hard not to say what I think I feel like silence requires a huge amount of self control. Dr G 34:58 You know, he was picking a better option, he thought. It really didn't go well for him. And at this point in time, Philoxenos' friends intervene again. They're like, come on, he's just trying to give you what you want. The tyrant of Syracuse is like, well, look, you know, I don't need that kind of frankness, you know, let's can he offer anything that's useful in terms of my poetry, I don't know. He brings Philoxenos back from the mines. Dr Rad 35:26 Oh, my God. Dr G 35:27 Philoxenos then makes a - what is called a paradoxical offer- to the tyrant Dr Rad 35:33 Okay Dr G 35:34 He says he will answer with both respect to the truth and also keeping the favor of Dionysius, and he's like, okay, the tyrant. Like, sure, let's see if you can do it. Can you say something that's honest and also keeps me happy? It's the real test now. And so, you know, there's some more poetry performance, and it's like Philoxenos, what do you think? No, just tell me your thoughts and Philoxenos says the verses strike him as pitiful, but, but this, the ambiguity of this answer gets him through because the tyrant of Syracuse interprets pitiful as a description of the emotional weight of the verse itself and how harrowing and deeply moving it is. Dr Rad 36:29 Gotcha? Yeah? I should have seen that coming. Dr G 36:30 Yeah, and Philoxenos is like, it was shit, picked a good word for it for you, tried really hard to pick something that would keep you happy. So this means that Philoxenos gets to, you know, keep his place at court, and even if he is still enslaved at this point. And it's not entirely clear to me that he is free because he has learned poetry as an enslaved person. So it might be the case that he's still in this situation. There is an alternative narrative for this whole situation, which is that it wasn't about the poetry that the tyrant was mad about. It was about the fact that, in the background, Philoxenos was trying to seduce the tyrant's girlfriend at the time. Dr Rad 37:16 God, this guy has a death wish. Dr G 37:18 He's like, I know poetry better than that, sir, come back to my bedroom. Dr Rad 37:24 You like some rhymes, baby? Well, here I go, here I go, right. Go again. Girls, what's my weakness? Dr G 37:32 That's right, and it's like, Have you heard about dithyrambs? I could show you a lot of things. So there is this alternative narrative as well that that may be at play. Now, I think one of the interesting moments in this whole section of the narrative is the fact that immediately following this story about Philoxenos, Diodorus tells us that much the same thing also happened in the case of Plato the philosopher. Dr Rad 38:00 Wait Dr G 38:03 Wait, yeah. So we are in the same period of history where the Athenian philosopher Plato is out and about and in Sicily at this point in time Dr Rad 38:18 Good lord, oh no. Dr G 38:21 The world's are colliding. For people who are interested in Greek history. Dr Rad 38:25 I can't handle this. Dr G 38:26 This might be your one Plato reference in this podcast. So Plato is part of the court at this point in time Dr Rad 38:34 Get out of town. Dr G 38:35 Yeah, Dr Rad 38:35 Is he one of the friends asking for this guy to get sent back? Dr G 38:39 So we don't know. The connection between Plato and Philoxenos is not exactly clear. It seems like a step, step narrative. So he is practicing his philosophy, right? And he is in the court of the tyrant, okay? But the tyrant is offended by some of Plato's statements in the same way he was offended by some of the things that Philoxenos said to him. Dr Rad 39:00 Well, I mean, he wouldn't be keeping up the good name of tyrant if he wasn't. Dr G 39:04 And the thing that happens to Plato as a result of offending the tyrant of Syracuse is that the tyrant sells him into slavery. Dr Rad 39:14 I did not know this about Plato. I mean, I look, I've got to say, for someone who studies the ancient world a lot, I don't know that much about Plato, as is becoming evident, Dr G 39:23 Plato: sold into slavery. And then a group of philosophers get together, and they're like, this is this is bad news. We gotta get this guy back out of slavery. Dr Rad 39:32 Yeah Dr G 39:33 They purchase him from the slave market, send him to Athens and tell him that maybe he shouldn't associate with tyrants if he wants to continue doing philosophy. Dr Rad 39:44 A life lesson learned. Dr G 39:47 And that's why we have the works of Socrates and Aristotle. Dr Rad 39:51 Wow. What a weird coincidink I yeah, I don't really know that much about Plato, but certainly what I do know does not date from his early life or associations with the tyrant of Syracuse. Dr G 40:05 He made some mistakes in his youth and decided to stay away from Sicily after that point in time. Dr Rad 40:10 Yeah, bloody hell. Dr G 40:12 Yeah. And so on the back of this and some of the criticisms that the tyrant of Syracuse has received about his poetry, he decides that it might be time to, yet again, enter the Olympic competition for poetry. Dr Rad 40:25 Oh, my God, I thought you were gonna say he was gonna give it up. No, that would be. Dr G 40:31 No. He decides to pursue things further, and yet again, his poetry is publicly laughed at during the performance of it. So for as much as he's trying to cultivate some kind of ideal of poetic civilization coming out of his tyranny in Sicily, it doesn't seem to be working out. And everyone's pretty sure that his poetry is terrible, and they're not willing to give him the time of day about it. Dr Rad 40:58 Do you know what I will say, though, at least he wrote it himself, dr, G, and didn't type it into chatGPT. Dr G 41:06 You know you can only get better by trying. Dr Rad 41:09 I would rather he try and fail and write terrible poetry then type it into chatGPT and try and pass off some sort of computer generated work, as you say. Dr G 41:20 And look and kudos for him for cultivating a court of people that were willing to give him feedback on his work, because feedback is how you improve. Now, unfortunately, he doesn't seem to be in the character, or perhaps mood to take on board feedback very well, but nevertheless, he's setting up the right conditions to be a better poet. Dr Rad 41:42 Yeah, although how he is still so bad when he's surrounded by people of talent? Question. Dr G 41:48 I don't know. You can't be good at everything. He's good at torturing people. Dr Rad 41:52 He's good at torturing people. This is true, but, yeah, it's it's odd that he's surrounded by all these intellectual types, or so, it would seem, and yet not good at it himself. Dr G 42:06 Well, I don't know, but yeah, it's a tough time. So that wraps up Meanwhile in Sicily so for me, that's effectively the end of 389 now. Dr Rad 42:18 Great. Well, look in response to what you were saying earlier about the whole dating thing. I am not surprised. This is very much this era in which everything seems to be three or four years out. There just seems to be this discrepancy, which is irritating, but we know it's all happening at around this time. So yes, all our episodes should be, you know, circa 389 BCE, circa 388 BCE. Dr G 42:48 Yes, it is hard to pin it down, and we'll eventually get back onto a more even keel, but it's not going to be for another few years just yet. Dr Rad 42:57 Yeah. And I think the appeal of having something as monumental as the Gallic sack in 390 I mean, yeah, we all like a nice round number for things every now and then. Dr G 43:08 Especially the Romans. Dr Rad 43:10 As it turns out, it may not have been then. It may have been a few years later, but it may have been. It's not as catchy. If it's 387 or 386 we just don't know, all right? Dr, G, well, I think that means that it is time for the Partial Pick. Dr G 43:29 So the Partial Pick we are going to rate the Romans. There are five categories. They can earn up to 10 golden eagles in each category, which means that by the end, if they've done better than they've ever done before, they'll all have 50 golden eagles. So let's see how they go. Dr Rad 43:48 I'm ready for it. What's our first category, Dr G? Dr G 43:51 Our first category is military clout. Dr Rad 43:55 Well, I actually have a surprising amount of material to work with here. I mean, it was almost too easy. Camillus basically just had to show up. Dr G 44:04 Win secured. Yeah, conquest here, conquest there, conquest here, yep, yeah. Look, if that's not a 10 out of 10, I'm not sure what would be. Dr Rad 44:12 Exactly. I mean, winning three conquests seemingly in the space of about a week, that's got to be a record. Dr G 44:19 Very impressive. Dr Rad 44:21 Yeah. All right, so it's 10. Dr G 44:24 The second category is diplomacy. Dr Rad 44:28 Well, I think the military success as usual kind of wipes out the opportunities for diplomacy. I mean, the Sutrians did ask the Romans for help, and the Romans did oblige. Do we count that as diplomacy? Dr G 44:41 That's true. And is it diplomatic to allow the Etruscans to leave Sutrium without killing them all? Dr Rad 44:50 That's true. As long as they just put the weapon down, they weren't going to be massacred. And lest we forget, do. It seems, although I do think it is just the appearance of peace, like there is some sort of resolution to this ongoing conflict with the Volscians as well, seemingly. I don't know if it's symptomatic exactly, but there's something going on there. Dr G 45:17 I don't think we can classify as that, as diplomacy, that is having ground them down over decades. Dr Rad 45:24 Well, they have no one to blame but themselves. Dr G, if they hadn't tried to take advantage of Rome's unfortunate encounter with the Gauls, this would never have happened. Dr G 45:33 Bad timing, Volscians. Dr Rad 45:34 Bad timing, exactly. All right, so how are we going to take this? Is that like a four? Dr G 45:40 I don't want to give them too many points for diplomacy at the end of a sword. Dr Rad 45:45 Yeah yeah yeah Dr G 45:45 So I feel like true diplomacy is when you're talking and the swords aren't out. But I do think that there is something to be said for lay down your weapons and walk away and we won't massacre you. Dr Rad 45:55 And helping allies. Dr G 45:57 Yeah, and yeah, helping out when somebody asks you, even if it is a Roman colony, so it's might be a two? Dr Rad 46:03 Yeah, I'm happy with the two. All right. All right. Dr G 46:06 Well, the third category is expansion. Dr Rad 46:10 No just dealing with their enemies, dealing well, but not adding territory. Dr G 46:17 All right. Well, that leads us swiftly to virtus. Dr Rad 46:21 Well, whilst Camillus is doing very well in this whole scenario, I am not getting that moment. You know, there's nothing terribly spectacular going on here, I feel. Dr G 46:37 Showing up and just everybody lying down isn't virtus. Dr Rad 46:42 You know what? I don't think like the Romans might be like, Wow, what a guy, but I don't know that that's what they're looking for when they're looking for virtus. And nobody under his command, seemingly doing that either. Dr G 46:57 No. All right, a lack of virtus, that's a zero, yeah, and then the final category is the citizen score. Was this a good time to be a Roman citizen? Dr Rad 47:07 I mean, weirdly, kind of like we talked about last time, I guess, even though it's just after the Gallic sack, apparently, and the devastation you would think would be deep and lasting. And yet the Romans, just like we're right back on the saddle again, kicking some arse in central Italy, making everyone afraid of us and and we wonder why we have no friends. Dr G 47:33 Well, yeah, guys, you just need to look in a mirror every so often. Dr Rad 47:36 And the soldiers, they get some booty out of Camillus, which apparently is unusual. Dr G 47:40 Yes Dr Rad 47:42 That's good news Dr G 47:42 Okay, so it's not all bad news. I mean, they did have to go to war, but they got something out of it. Dr Rad 47:47 Yeah Dr G 47:47 And had a lot of victories. Dr Rad 47:48 So that's and like factoring in what we know happened at the beginning of 389, when we were talking about it, you know, there's all the rebuilding the, you know, trying to set things square with the gods. Dr G 47:59 You know, having a house is better than not having a house. Dr Rad 48:02 Exactly, yes, yes, getting roof tiles from the government is better than having to make them yourself sacks. Dr G 48:09 Yeah, although, having said that, Oh, who's making those roof tiles? Dr Rad 48:14 I don't want to know; I don't want to know Dr G 48:26 Because it's gonna be the people who going to be using those roof tiles, surely? Dr Rad 48:27 I was gonna say it's probably slaves. I hate to say it. Dr G 48:27 Noooo Dr Rad 48:27 But who knows? Yeah, so look, I feel like it's it is a relatively good time, because Rome is carrying victory before it, which I would not expect after everything that happened. It's almost too easy. Dr G. Dr G 48:38 Well, I say things aren't all great. So I'm willing to give them maybe a five. Dr Rad 48:44 Yeah. I mean, I'm sure there are still people who are living in a construction zone, which is not pleasant for anyone, as we all know, renovations suck. So yeah, five sounds good to me, which means Dr G that the Romans have ended up with 17 golden eagles. Not too shabby for the year after the Gallic sack supposedly took place. Dr G 49:09 Big thanks will have to go to Camillus for all of his supposed military prowess. Dr Rad 49:14 Naturally. We'll be thanking Camillus for many years for his contributions to the state, Dr G, rest assured of that Dr G 49:23 A man not to be forgotten. Dr Rad 49:25 No, and that's why we bear the name of the Furii clan on our T shirts today. Dr G 49:29 It's true. Dr Rad 49:31 All right. Dr, G, well, that is 389 put to bed. I will look forward to seeing you in 388. Circa. Dr G 49:38 Circa. Yes, I look forward to that, too. Thanks for listening. If you'd like to support the podcast, you can find us on Patreon and Ko-Fi. We've also published two books on ancient Roman history, "Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome", examines. The different literary accounts of the earliest rulers recorded in Roman history. "Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire" is full of the sorts of stories the Romans wished you didn't know about them, and is guaranteed to make for interesting conversation. Thank you to all our Patreon supporters. We are truly humbled by your patronage. Transcribed by https://otter.ai