Latest / After Maghrib 🌙 / Caliphs and Corruption - Shi'a Islamic Governance (Ft. Mohamad Ali)

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Caliphs and Corruption - Shi'a Islamic Governance (Ft. Mohamad Ali) · After Maghrib 🌙

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  Alaikum and welcome back to the After Mazra podcast, The Late
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  Ahmed, feel free to disagree with me.
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  Madrid family and you know him. If you tune in Fridays and you
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  want Juma Knight's brother, Muhammad Ali, Salaam Ali,
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  How you doing? I'm up.
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  Doing good, doing good, obviously bad time on.
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  That's How about podcast bro? Third time on, third time lucky.
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  I did that. Kabul bro just came back.
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  Yeah man, thank you. I was amazing.
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  Really like spiritual experience.
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  Really enjoyed it. Inshallah, like take me back.
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  Honestly, yeah, inshallah Kabbalah next time inshallah and
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  yeah, inshallah we can go together.
• 2:47
  In Charlotte, maybe we have something planned in the future.
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  Who knows, say what we're talking about today.
• 2:56
  Well, before I say what we're talking about today, how are
• 2:58
  you? I'm OK, bro.
• 3:00
  I was gonna say no Salaam for me, honestly.
• 3:03
  Do you know what that means? That means that you are the the
• 3:11
  like immediate replacement for me.
• 3:17
  Whoa, whoa, whoa. To be fair.
• 3:24
  To be fair, report the podcast. Germanize is like the Neighbour
• 3:29
  podcast to be fair. Yeah.
• 3:32
  Kind of. Sister podcast.
• 3:34
  I'm not going to get up this this podcast.
• 3:38
  Say what we're talking about. Tell me.
• 3:39
  Today we want to well you're going to tell me better, but
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  from what I understand before I even mention the topic because I
• 3:44
  don't even know what, we will end up tightening this.
• 3:47
  We live in a world where governments, be it good or evil,
• 3:51
  bad or ugly are ruling whether they're Muslim or non-muslim and
• 3:55
  we are confused. Generally, I'm confused.
• 3:58
  And we see Muslim leaders, Muslim rulers, whether we look
• 4:00
  at the Gulf countries. Wherever you look right now,
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  given the current situation that the world faces, we can't
• 4:06
  differentiate between Hatton battle, right and wrong.
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  So what we want to discuss here today is Islamic governments.
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  Do we need them? What are the requirements of
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  them? You know, why are they
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  important? Can we live in a non-muslim
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  government country? Do we have to go live in an
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  Islamic country? I think that's what I want to
• 4:28
  see the conversation going, but you tell me.
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  Yeah, I mean, look, in light of our continuing themes of gaining
• 4:35
  and understanding the world around us, it's an important
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  conversation to have. So it goes without saying that
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  the world we live in like you said is very diverse, very
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  politicised and globalised. So at this juncture in the world
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  we live in, we have an ongoing genocide which we've seen for
• 4:51
  the last eight months. We have political upheaval in
• 4:56
  the western states, whether it's the US or the UK, the
• 4:58
  independent movement in the UK, the rise of the independent
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  narrative, the non mainstream media narrative happening in in
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  North America and all of these things leave and and kind of
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  bring the question forth as to what is the future for Muslims
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  who are western diaspora Muslims.
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  OK, so it's important to have this conversation in light of
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  what our history in Islam teaches us.
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  Of course the the governance methods of Assalaam Muhammad
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  Sallallahu Alaihi Salam the Haim Alaam Salaam and obviously
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  looking forth to the Imam Imam Al Mahiya Sharif.
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  So of course it goes without saying guys, we are not like
• 5:38
  political analysts. We're not sure.
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  We're not scholars, we're not diplomats.
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  We are amateurs. Or at least I speak for myself
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  and amateur when it comes to this kind of conversation.
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  But really someone who's engaged in it and and wants to learn
• 5:51
  more and inshallah, we can bring this conversation to you.
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  So you can also do the research and the learning with us as
• 5:57
  well. There's there's probably a good
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  place to start in my opinion, which is why we feel there's a
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  need to talk about governance, especially when we are from the
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  school of the Ahlab, Beta Lehema Salam.
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  OK, we talk about, you know there's a hadith from Al Masadah
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  Al Islam where he says that the OMAIDS and the Abbasids, this
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  isn't Al Hassad where he says the OMAIDS and the Abbasids,
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  they they ruled with an iron fist basically.
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  Whereas we, the school of the, albeit our governance methods
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  are with compassion and love and a gentle demeanour.
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  Why is it important to have this conversation today?
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  Go so I think with with Islamic governance and governance in
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  general, I think there's been a long history of development with
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  regards to what is governance, what is the solution to people's
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  problems or social issues at any given time.
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  And that in itself has changed. So we see for example the
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  Qadhafa of Emir Muminin in the mainstream understanding like
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  the fill out of me and my Menin. And if you draw parallels, it's
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  it's possible that the government of Mahmud Ali Salaam
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  will not be exactly the same as the government of Mahmud Ali,
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  even though both of them are infallible governments.
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  Right. So what's I think what the most
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  important thing with regards to governance is that it's
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  definitely needed and it it's just how to govern a society.
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  And that is something that you know that need has existed from
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  the beginning of time. When you have a group of people
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  larger than 10/15/20, there always needs to be a leader
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  amongst them and a system in order to govern them.
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  And obviously as followers of the Akhbeta Himsalam, as
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  Muslims, we believe that we should have the solution.
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  We should have the answer from the Imams and from the Quran.
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  Obviously the Quran says that it is a book that is explanatory of
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  all things Tibian and Ikalishik and governance is just a basic
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  kind of necessity in every kind of society.
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  So at the very least, we have to believe that this is where we
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  can find the answer in the Quran and obviously the of Albert Time
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  Slam, which is something that scholars and Muslim thinkers
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  have been trying to get to for years with, with with that
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  science developing and changing over over many centuries.
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  So yeah, I think it'd be interesting to just discuss,
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  yeah, all of those, all of that development and how it's
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  changed. And the lack of governance leads
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  to chaos, anarchy and and complete disorder.
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  And every rule, every fabric of society will lack that, that,
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  that order. The chaos we'd we'd you know,
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  ensue would would be a result of lack of lack of law.
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  Yeah, and there's there's a hadith as well.
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  Actually, I wanted to quote from Mamorodo Ali Salaam, he says.
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  And we see that there is not a single group, yeah, from all of
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  the groups of the world or a nation, from any of the nations
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  that lived and remained, except with choosing A maintainer and a
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  leader for themselves to sort out their matters.
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  In the in the Dunya and in the Dean and because that individual
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  would be able to sort out all the social affairs like the the
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  financial issues, so economically, socially to just
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  to have some sort of law and order.
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  And this is something that's a natural thing that we don't
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  necessarily need a hadith for. But just rationally, we can
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  understand that every kind of society requires some sort of
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  leadership. You know what's interesting
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  before you just mentioned this Hadith Salaam, you mentioned
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  that when Imam Al Mehdi leave comes, he'll govern differently
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  than Emir Ali Ali Salaam. I I I don't know too much on
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  this but I remember hearing a lecture just can't remember by
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  whom. And he said that point on the
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  member where he was like Imam Ali when he was ruling.
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  If you wanted to implement for example the Islamic Penal Code
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  or if you wanted to, you know for example implement any
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  Islamic law, he couldn't until the person actually committed
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  something. Whereas when the Imam Ali Ali
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  Salaam comes he he doesn't ruled by this because he already knows
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  what that person is going to do. So he takes the action before
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  the individual actually. I've I've seen this like the
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  spoken about as they speak about it as hokum al Daoud, right?
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  The idea that. The name the.
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  Idea that before it having happened, because he's aware of
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  it, then he can. He can take a hokum on it before
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  it even happens. That's crazy.
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  And that's. Yeah, a good place to start
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  maybe this conversation is talking about the Hakuma of
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  Islam Hamad Salah. Now the the concept of
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  governance in in in an Islamic lens is obviously introduced at
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  the time of revelation. OK, so the last one to Allah
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  introduces the Holy Prophet as Khartoum nabrein and he
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  introduces him as the chosen Messenger, the infallible
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  messenger of God's law, God's word on earth.
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  He is then put forward as a divinely represent divine
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  representation of Allah spun all to Allah.
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  Now what I find interesting is the Holy Prophet Muhammad.
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  He acts in every single facet of governance, the legislative, the
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  judicial and of course the executive.
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  He he's not someone who just expounds articles of faith and
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  theorises spirituality, rather he executes law and he
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  implements law as an executor. And that's really interesting to
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  note because for the first time in in really probably in Arab
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  history you had a non like royal figure or a non tyrannical
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  figure who was executing law from a perspective of divine
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  knowledge, which is very interesting.
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  Now Widow Salam Hamad Sallallahu alayhi al Salem, when he
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  executed law he administered everything like you said.
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  So for example, whether it's assigning judges, for example,
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  or sitting in the judiciary himself, whether it's, I don't
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  know, dispensing mysteries to foreign states, whether it's
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  acting as a commander in chief and working militarily, whether
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  it's working on the ground and engaging with people face to
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  face with their social issues and all of that stuff, He would
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  then implement that. And at the time of his death,
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  there was a reason why no one came out and said we don't need
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  a government. Not everyone agreed that the
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  Islamic government system that he had built was perfect and it
• 12:18
  was working. The only argument was then who
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  takes over because they they saw this to be something valuable
• 12:24
  and they saw it to be something which everyone would want to
• 12:26
  take part in to the point where then there was of course a
• 12:28
  dispute which now leads until today.
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  And only that seat which I lost from to Allah has mentioned, you
• 12:34
  know there's so many verses in the Holy Quran.
• 12:37
  Well last month Allah mentions I'm not going to go through them
• 12:38
  and everyone at home in Charlotte can can do this but
• 12:40
  there's there's so many verses in the Holy Quran short Ibrahim
• 12:43
  verse #52, so Yonas verse #2, sorta la Hazab verse #40.
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  Sorry I seen verse #70. All of these different verses
• 12:51
  talk about a last month Allah's divine knowledge and wisdom when
• 12:54
  it comes to appointing us Allah, Muhammad as the messenger.
• 12:57
  Just one thing which I find very interesting is when insult Allah
• 13:00
  Hazab, Allah says that Muhammad is not the father of any of your
• 13:04
  sons rather he's the Messenger of Allah and the seal of the
• 13:09
  Prophets Khatam Nabin. And Allah has perfect knowledge
• 13:12
  of all things. Imagine the obedience you have
• 13:14
  to your father, right? More than that, Sallallah is of
• 13:18
  course the chosen representative of a last month on earth.
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  So the obedience to Sallallahu from a law and order perspective
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  is divinely appointed rather than just something which is a
• 13:29
  social responsibility or or a moral obligation, if that makes
• 13:31
  sense. So I think that's a good place
• 13:33
  to start, Maybe talking about the Holy Prophet and the Ayam
• 13:36
  Alaam Salam. Of course we'll get on to a
• 13:38
  minimum million as well. What do you think?
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  I wouldn't know what to add to that to be honest.
• 13:44
  How do you think that rasulullah governs society?
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  So I think that one of the most important things that we see in
• 13:51
  the leadership of Rasulullah is the fairness and the Adalah,
• 13:55
  right, that we see lost in the in the leaderships that come
• 14:00
  after. So for example, when we look at
• 14:03
  the time of Rasulullah, there's functions, economic functions
• 14:06
  like the Beethoven mud, right? The Beethoven mud at the time of
• 14:10
  Rasulullah is distributed fairly, right?
• 14:12
  If you're a slave and you've just been freed and you're or
• 14:15
  you're a master of 10 slaves, you're going to be treated the
• 14:19
  same as a slave, as a Muslim, right?
• 14:21
  So you see that at the time of Rasulullah and then in the in
• 14:25
  the time of the Khalifa. So the second Khalifa for
• 14:28
  example, you see a level of discrimination seeping into the
• 14:33
  Islamic leadership. So for example, the Persians
• 14:36
  that would come to the second Khalifa with regards to their
• 14:38
  economic issues or anything like that would be treated
• 14:41
  significantly worse than the Arabs that were there, right.
• 14:46
  Then you have the situation of the third Caliph, which became
• 14:49
  very famous that it even led to the the his death.
• 14:53
  Basically, a lot of people began to hate him because of his
• 14:58
  favouritism and his, you know, his issues with how he
• 15:03
  distributed the money of the wealth of the Muslims, right.
• 15:07
  And then you see that Imam Ali Ali Salam, when he comes back,
• 15:11
  he brings back the Osul and the principles of Rasulullah in
• 15:16
  making it fair again. And what is really interesting
• 15:19
  is that, you know, when we think of people like Talhans Zubair,
• 15:22
  for example, Talhans Zubair, they had issues of course, with
• 15:26
  Imam Ali ideologically, but another big issue that they had
• 15:29
  was with the money. They knew that now our guy is
• 15:33
  gone right now, we're going to go back to the time of
• 15:37
  Rasulullah and we're not going to get any kind of favouritism,
• 15:40
  right. So that was something that was
• 15:43
  such a small like you know, one part of the Khalafa, one part of
• 15:46
  the leadership, but was so significant in in those in those
• 15:51
  like different Khalafas. How would that all relate to us
• 15:54
  today? Was and this discussion.
• 15:56
  No. Like Muhammad you mentioned
• 15:58
  earlier there's that there there needs to be a a leader or or
• 16:02
  someone who acts in the in the position of authority in any
• 16:04
  social environment, any social. You could be a manager in the
• 16:06
  business. You could be a father in the
• 16:08
  house, whatever it might be. There needs to be an
• 16:10
  understanding of justice in every social setting, right.
• 16:14
  Any corporate setting, any religious environment that
• 16:17
  you're in there needs to be an an an authority and with
• 16:20
  authority comes conditions. So you talk about Huli Salah,
• 16:24
  right. Do we not know of course that
• 16:25
  there are conditions that come to with leading Salata Jamar as
• 16:28
  an example on a very like microscopic scale.
• 16:32
  But when we talk about governance at large, you know
• 16:35
  we're living in a day and age where now in the UK we have over
• 16:37
  10,000 food banks. 21 years, 25 years ago, without getting too
• 16:42
  political, we didn't have any food banks in the UK.
• 16:44
  We had one, I believe in the in the whole of the country.
• 16:46
  But now of course we've been royally done in by by the
• 16:51
  current government in the UK to the point where now we're in a
• 16:54
  recession, OK, we have high child poverty and so on.
• 16:57
  So when we talk about Amiramat Mini like you mentioned, yeah,
• 17:01
  Kofi Annan in the UN, why did he reference Amiramat Mini?
• 17:04
  Ali Salaam when he talked about government?
• 17:06
  Because Amiramat Mini had a standard which eradicated
• 17:09
  poverty. And we talk about welfare states
• 17:11
  in the UK. We pride ourselves on being a
• 17:13
  welfare state, NHS and like benefits and so on and so forth.
• 17:17
  Imam Ali Ali and of course Rasulullah introduced the
• 17:21
  welfare state in a world where no one had welfare right.
• 17:24
  There's so many things and if you don't mind I'll just rapid
• 17:26
  fire that list. A few things which I love about
• 17:28
  the way Minamat Manin treated his government.
• 17:33
  OK, the first thing he did was he made the marketplace ethical.
• 17:37
  He made it a Fair Trading environment.
• 17:39
  If you were a seller, he would tell people don't overvalue your
• 17:41
  goods and if you're a buyer, don't devalue or de estimate the
• 17:44
  item you're buying. Be fair in the way you trade
• 17:47
  with people and I use that in my Business Today.
• 17:49
  For example, when I quote a client I bear in mind, am I, am
• 17:52
  I ripping them off or not? For example, he introduced a
• 17:55
  fair levy on tax. He would tell his governors,
• 17:57
  when you're collecting tax, don't whip people if they can't
• 18:00
  pay tax, tell them it's okay. You know you're not allowed to
• 18:02
  use capital punishment when doing things like that.
• 18:05
  He would never allow a delay in in distribution of wealth.
• 18:09
  OK, so public assets, benefits, the disabled.
• 18:13
  For example, disability allowance on a on a monthly
• 18:15
  basis, divorcees and widows. If they had lost the
• 18:18
  breadwinner, he'd say we as the state would act as the
• 18:20
  breadwinner for the divorcee. He would allow fair and equal
• 18:24
  enjoyment of public goods so that everyone in this together
• 18:27
  can use and and benefit from them.
• 18:29
  The main two things which I really appreciate, one you
• 18:31
  mentioned is nepotism. He he allowed us to live or not
• 18:35
  us. So he allowed the people at the
• 18:36
  time to to to live in a world of meritocracy where you you earn
• 18:41
  the position you get. You don't get a position, or
• 18:44
  your sons or your kin kinship don't get special perks and
• 18:48
  privileges for being related to you or from the same ashira as
• 18:51
  you or whatever. Rather you can.
• 18:53
  Mum Hassan Islam of course was the Minister of Finance with mum
• 18:55
  Ali's government. But he got there through merit
• 18:58
  the the thing which I love the most.
• 19:00
  And you asked about how it applies to us.
• 19:02
  He was very frugal with public assets.
• 19:07
  What do I mean? So of course he they would
• 19:10
  collect tax like jizya and Homs and what not.
• 19:13
  The money that they would collect from tax in the
• 19:14
  treasury. They would buy, I don't know,
• 19:16
  let's say like a cart. Yeah, to distribute bread or
• 19:20
  something. Yeah.
• 19:21
  He would go to the extent where he would tell his governors.
• 19:24
  Imam Ali would tell his governors.
• 19:25
  If you are writing me a letter on paper that's owned by the
• 19:29
  Treasury, make sure you sharpen your pencil and reduce the
• 19:33
  lines, the lines between the sentences on the paper.
• 19:37
  And don't engage in verbosity like don't write for the sake of
• 19:41
  writing. Don't say nonsense for the be
• 19:43
  quick with your words. Use as little paper as you can.
• 19:45
  So I know in my heart that we are not guilty of wastage of a
• 19:49
  sloth like even to such a degree he he was frugal and and and and
• 19:53
  not not stingy. There's a very careful point to
• 19:55
  make here. Not stingy but rather he was.
• 19:57
  We're conscious that this is the belongs to the people and not
• 20:00
  myself. We talked like a few podcasts
• 20:02
  ago about the story of the candle which we always talk
• 20:05
  about. Dalhans or Bell I believe came
• 20:06
  to him and they said we want to discuss a personal matter and
• 20:09
  and he had a candle lit which was the property of of the
• 20:12
  treasury. He unlit the candle he took out
• 20:14
  another one and relit and they said why did you do that?
• 20:16
  He said because the light was burning and I cannot use that
• 20:19
  candle when I'm discussing personal issues.
• 20:21
  Now talk to me. Now, so I I know I'm rambling on
• 20:24
  a bit. But these are things that I
• 20:25
  think about when when we talk about how it applies today and
• 20:28
  then the world we live in is just filled with corruption,
• 20:31
  nepotism, favorite. Like there's so many things, the
• 20:35
  lobbies and the pressure groups that we we see today who are
• 20:38
  actively participating in genocide, who are actively
• 20:41
  participating in in like a lack of moral standing in society
• 20:47
  when governing what we what is meant to be a civilised Western
• 20:52
  democracy completely failing and there is a need for the
• 20:56
  reintroduction of moral consciousness. 100% I think it's
• 21:00
  it's interesting as well that despite there being a
• 21:03
  meritocracy, it was a situation and a system in which poverty
• 21:08
  didn't exist. 100%. That there's a narration I
• 21:11
  believe it's from Abu Vah where it says that Imam Ali Ali Salaam
• 21:15
  he comes out into the market and he saw a beggar and he was in
• 21:19
  shock. Ali was in shock.
• 21:22
  He's like why is there a beggar in my khilafa like that at that
• 21:26
  time that was shocking to see somebody actually on the street
• 21:29
  begging because that's how fair the fairly the Beetho Lamar was
• 21:33
  distributed. So the wealthy were giving their
• 21:36
  share of the tax and obviously that makes up for at least the
• 21:40
  basic necessities of everybody such that they shouldn't be be
• 21:42
  begging. Like at that point in time
• 21:45
  people did not see generally people begging in the street.
• 21:48
  They sorted that person out and that was it.
• 21:50
  Like that was the level that that society has reached to.
• 21:54
  Ajib, It makes me think like now we live in a world where we have
• 21:58
  how many Islamic countries? How many Islamic?
• 22:00
  Countries, God knows doesn't. And they don't.
• 22:03
  I don't think any of them have a welfare system in place and the
• 22:06
  most basic thing when you. Look after when you look after.
• 22:09
  Like you said, the widows, the orphans, and we don't wish this
• 22:12
  on on anyone, let alone. But if you're saying you're you
• 22:15
  are leading an Islamic government, sorry, I I don't
• 22:18
  want to use any countries as examples right now.
• 22:20
  You could use all of them. OK, let's use 100.
• 22:22
  Percent. What are you doing?
• 22:23
  Yeah, if you're claiming to be, you know, ruling by the book of
• 22:26
  Allah, some of them do claim like their constitutions are
• 22:29
  according to the Quran and Sumner of Rasulullah Muhammad,
• 22:31
  what are you doing? So I don't know.
• 22:34
  Yeah, even the identities of these, I think.
• 22:36
  Only about Medica. Sol, You're you're.
• 22:39
  You're. You're a Muslim.
• 22:40
  You have. To be a muscle to eradicate
• 22:43
  poverty. You're a Muslim.
• 22:44
  You're from a specific ethnicity.
• 22:45
  You go to a Muslim country, most of them won't accept you as a as
• 22:50
  a citizen of that country. There's these nationalistic
• 22:53
  ideals as well that take over in with regards to Islam.
• 22:57
  Like, if you go to a specific country, you could live there 50
• 22:59
  years, you could have children there, you could marry someone
• 23:01
  there, all of like you could do everything.
• 23:03
  You live there and they would not accept you as a citizen of
• 23:07
  that country. So, you know, this like
• 23:09
  nationalism and tribalism. Yeah, exactly.
• 23:11
  Moved away from the Islamic identity into a nationalistic
• 23:16
  identity. And with time, time is just
• 23:18
  getting worse. Everywhere you go, for example,
• 23:20
  even like let's say Middle East, yeah, in the Middle East,
• 23:24
  everywhere you go, that identity of their country, of their
• 23:27
  nation is just becoming stronger with time.
• 23:29
  It's not, it's not getting like less.
• 23:32
  It's not like they're moving away from that and now saying OK
• 23:35
  let's adopt A more Islamic identity.
• 23:36
  Even those that adopt A Islamic identity.
• 23:39
  It's already surface level that this is appearance.
• 23:43
  Like this is just you know, where Islamic country we put, I
• 23:47
  don't know we put a Quran on as decoration when you come into
• 23:50
  the country or you know it's just it's very performative.
• 23:53
  Oh, you said it's declaration, It's decoration I.
• 23:55
  Want to come back something you mentioned?
• 23:57
  You're right, I completely agree.
• 23:58
  Tribalism. Tribalism is rampant.
• 24:00
  And that's one of the diseases, of course.
• 24:02
  But something you mentioned about only a marsum can
• 24:05
  eradicate poverty. I think you're right from a
• 24:07
  theoretical perspective like a marsum can bring us the
• 24:12
  practical and timeless theories that we can implement.
• 24:15
  Because Mira Mokminin had his his government right and he had
• 24:19
  people in ministership and he had people of course who later
• 24:21
  went on to betray him even or betray the other Imam.
• 24:24
  So later Imam Salaam al Salaam. But to the point where like you
• 24:29
  mentioned Beit Al Amal earlier like Beit Al Amal as a concept
• 24:33
  is there because it can work, it can flourish even.
• 24:36
  And Minamat minion says that if I see a person in destitution, I
• 24:39
  know it's because a rich person has denied him his share.
• 24:43
  You know there there should be no poverty.
• 24:44
  If we talk about Homs as an example, it's more than just all
• 24:47
  this money for for a poor seed and this money for the work of
• 24:51
  the Imam, it's much more than that, right?
• 24:53
  So if every forget even on a global level but even in in in
• 24:57
  the Islamic world if all Muslims gave 2520% of their annual
• 25:03
  disposable income, 25 saved. 25 Too much more. 20%, yeah, too
• 25:09
  much. Tons of cards and no.
• 25:11
  But if if you think about 1/5 your annual disposable savings,
• 25:15
  you'd you'd be able to to do much more than just use some
• 25:19
  money to build a mosque or use some money to support a charity.
• 25:23
  You know, We'd then be able to flourish in a world where poor
• 25:28
  people can. Well, at least of course if if
• 25:30
  the government in in in in order is is acting properly and
• 25:34
  there's allocation of funds and beta and mile is effective, then
• 25:37
  then you have a much more flourishing welfare state.
• 25:40
  I think though obviously we have homes right now and obviously it
• 25:45
  doesn't seem to have completely solved the issue.
• 25:48
  But everything comes back to Shall I?
• 25:50
  Tell you why the normal so gone but.
• 25:53
  I was going to say everything comes back to the people, right?
• 25:55
  So who's who's administering those funds and allocating those
• 25:57
  funds? And also, let's be real.
• 25:59
  Do do we genuinely believe that every believing Shia or IS is
• 26:05
  like doing the hopes? I mean you.
• 26:06
  Know what I'm saying? The thing is, with the amount of
• 26:09
  Shia the the ones that are paying it it to be fair it
• 26:12
  should. It should be enough, I reckon.
• 26:14
  Yeah, it's more conversation. Yeah.
• 26:18
  We leave that to the Xbox. Well, you know, someone once
• 26:20
  said I was doing once. I was on a live charity
• 26:23
  campaign, yeah, and someone mentioned like if if just the
• 26:27
  Muslims like there's over 1 billion, they just paid their
• 26:30
  fair share in Zakat. Forget non-Muslims, just every
• 26:34
  Muslim paid their zakat on time, every time correctly, with no
• 26:41
  cheating, no hiding money, no finding loopholes to get away
• 26:44
  from. Paying was due, bro.
• 26:46
  There, there will be no poverty of.
• 26:47
  Course. Yeah, No, you're right.
• 26:48
  So. We're to blame and as much as we
• 26:50
  want to complain, you know leaders are not doing enough and
• 26:53
  you know people are running countries corruptly and things
• 26:55
  like this. No, I I think everyone plays
• 26:57
  role. Bro, it's it's Forget.
• 26:58
  Even just in Islamic you talk about annual food wastage on a
• 27:01
  daily basis. If the amount of food wasted on
• 27:04
  in one day was saved, it could eradicate homeless.
• 27:09
  What's the weather? Looking for starvation for a
• 27:11
  year, right? On a global level.
• 27:14
  So there's so many things like you said, on an introspective
• 27:19
  level, we can look at and we can say, yeah, I need to take this
• 27:21
  away and learn from it. What about now?
• 27:24
  Let's talk about types of government.
• 27:26
  I think this is interesting and I think it's an important
• 27:28
  conversation to have because we're getting into it.
• 27:30
  And if you live in the UK or the US, you'll know that we are
• 27:32
  heading towards elections. So there's a general election
• 27:35
  coming up in the UK. Of course there's a presidential
• 27:37
  elections coming up in the US later this year.
• 27:40
  We are talking about government. And there's a day for that
• 27:42
  happened many years ago, and there's a.
• 27:43
  Day for that happened many years ago as well.
• 27:46
  When we talk about types of government, we live in a liberal
• 27:48
  democracy. Liberal democracy.
• 27:50
  Many may argue that may not work whether you're in a first past
• 27:54
  the post system like we are here in the UK or not.
• 27:56
  OK, but monarchy and royalty is something which is deplorable by
• 28:03
  Islamic standards. OK, now we see this in so many
• 28:08
  examples through our history, whether we're talking about Fed
• 28:10
  our own, whether we're talking about Roman emperors, whether
• 28:13
  we're talking about kings. And on every level it's
• 28:17
  considered to be Tahrut, right? Like to the point where even in
• 28:21
  the Holy Quran, Allah, Allah said where you see, for all he
• 28:24
  says, yeah, and Allah says in the Holy Quran, I'll get the
• 28:29
  verse up, I have it somewhere, just bear with me.
• 28:33
  Where is it? Sort of Casas verse #4 for OWN
• 28:39
  arrogantly elevated himself in the land and divided his people
• 28:42
  into subservient groups of which he persecuted, slaughtering
• 28:46
  their sons and keeping their women.
• 28:48
  Truly he is one of the corrupters that that concept of
• 28:52
  corruption on earth is very important.
• 28:54
  I'm not going to come back to your first podcast where you
• 28:56
  talked about causing corruption on the earth if you don't give
• 28:58
  your sons to or your daughters to.
• 29:00
  Do you remember that hadith? Because if you don't give your
• 29:02
  daughters right with Dina like lark and causing corruption on
• 29:05
  the earth, not like at all. Everything comes back to
• 29:08
  marriage, by the way, but I don't want to take the
• 29:10
  conversation, Ali was. I don't want to take that
• 29:11
  conversation. Now, but let's talk about this.
• 29:13
  OK, so monarchy, right? So on the on from the concept of
• 29:17
  like shook. And the Henry the eighth.
• 29:20
  Sorry, Henry, the eighth. No, just the eighth.
• 29:22
  Yeah, even Kings of England and stuff.
• 29:24
  Yeah, Like, do you think that the system, that system is a
• 29:29
  broken system for for Muslims? Of course, because we see it
• 29:33
  here today and we're living proof and they're living proof
• 29:36
  and we see how they, how they rule and how they treat their
• 29:39
  citizens, their subjects, if they're, if they're the kings
• 29:41
  and majesties of today. But before I get into this, you
• 29:44
  know, whole monarchy thing, I want to talk about, for example,
• 29:47
  the Western governments. Yeah, there's something I like
• 29:51
  about the Muhammad. Yeah, there's many things.
• 29:53
  Very nice. Yes, they're not Islamic, but
• 29:56
  they have many Islamic principles and values that align
• 29:59
  with us. One of them being is the whole
• 30:01
  first thing. Yeah.
• 30:04
  One of them being is human rights, although now we see it
• 30:06
  doesn't apply to everyone but it applies for their citizens.
• 30:08
  And you're telling me I I can look, I can go to an Islamic
• 30:11
  country and it goes back to, to your point, I can go to an
• 30:13
  Islamic country. I cannot be an Arab and I don't
• 30:16
  have the same right at work, residency and everything else.
• 30:20
  But I can come here. You can be a white man and I can
• 30:24
  be an Arab and someone else can be.
• 30:25
  I don't know. He can be from a different part
• 30:27
  of the world and they all have the same rights when it comes.
• 30:30
  For example, home ownership when it comes to.
• 30:32
  Flaming. Welfare, the right to vote, you
• 30:34
  know, having a say, you play a huge part in society.
• 30:38
  Yes. You're not a Muslim run
• 30:41
  government, but it's sort of you are.
• 30:45
  You don't feel like there is racism from government level.
• 30:47
  You don't feel like you're losing out from government
• 30:50
  level. Maybe some do.
• 30:50
  No, now you do. Now it's apparent before it was
• 30:53
  hidden something. I can go to an Islamic country.
• 30:55
  I can't even practice my beliefs.
• 30:58
  I can do it here, so I would rather be.
• 31:01
  In this freedom of. Religious I would rather be.
• 31:04
  I'd rather be. I'd rather be living in a
• 31:05
  country that allows me to practice my religion freely than
• 31:08
  go to an Islamic country that I can't even practice my religion,
• 31:11
  let alone my Shia faith, freely. I agree.
• 31:13
  I agree. Of course there are blurred
• 31:15
  lines. Yeah, some issues.
• 31:16
  That's why it's impossible. You need them are soon to rule.
• 31:19
  You can't. You can't.
• 31:20
  I don't know. You tell me.
• 31:21
  I don't know. I I don't know if I agree with
• 31:23
  that. Obviously I understand like what
• 31:25
  you're saying and and it's true that there is a lot of freedoms
• 31:27
  here that we enjoy. And if they claim to be ruling
• 31:30
  in the name of. A slam I.
• 31:31
  Know, I'll say oppositely. I completely, but they don't
• 31:34
  the. Problem is, the other side does.
• 31:35
  I think as well as people that grow up in the West, there is a.
• 31:41
  I'm not a brush here, by the way.
• 31:45
  OK. So when we're like growing up in
• 31:47
  the West, I think there is an ink of like you know when you
• 31:52
  look at the media and we see with regards to Islamic
• 31:54
  countries and you know they talk about Sharia law and to be
• 31:59
  honest there always will be an inkling of us being scared to
• 32:03
  live in a Muslim like country when we when we think about how
• 32:07
  we've been conditioned. Are you scared of living in the
• 32:09
  UK right now? Of course.
• 32:10
  Why? That's a.
• 32:13
  That's a whole. That's a whole.
• 32:14
  Conversation. Bro, that's what I don't think
• 32:17
  this is a conversation about like on a personal.
• 32:20
  I was scared to live in Saudi, for example.
• 32:22
  Yeah, but that would in many ways that might be on a personal
• 32:25
  level, Do you know what I'm saying?
• 32:26
  Yeah, I think. I think this The thing is,
• 32:29
  unfortunately, of course we can all agree that the Muslim
• 32:32
  countries that do exist or the generic Muslim countries that
• 32:35
  exist, we can agree that they're not ruling completely by Islam,
• 32:40
  right, The generic mainstream Muslim countries.
• 32:44
  And The thing is that with growing up in the West, there is
• 32:48
  that effect of media on us that even if we were to think about
• 32:52
  certain Hadood for example, in Islam, right, the certain things
• 32:55
  are in the Koran, right Hadood. If someone steals, this is a
• 32:58
  punishment. If someone does this, this is
• 33:01
  the punishment. You can't say, as someone that's
• 33:04
  growing up in the West, that that doesn't make you even the
• 33:07
  tiniest bit of uncomfortable. If you were to see someone, for
• 33:11
  example, receiving the punishment for stealing, there
• 33:13
  would be a part of you that would be like, is this really
• 33:18
  it? And I think that there, there's
• 33:21
  a lot of conditioning with regards to how we view Islamic
• 33:24
  governance because of how we've grown up seeing Muslim
• 33:28
  governments run. Yeah, that's one aspect and also
• 33:32
  because of conditioning of the media.
• 33:34
  But I just wanted to come to an eye of the Quran as well with
• 33:37
  regards to how Allah wants hokum to be done right?
• 33:42
  And he he mentions it in here we have sorted Mada right?
• 33:46
  We have a verse, verse #44. Allah says with regards to the
• 33:51
  religions that came even before Islam, yeah, so he says Inna
• 33:54
  anzela after the best melee, he says Inna Anzela torat.
• 33:57
  If he Haden wanor. Yeah.
• 33:59
  And Nabiuna, Ladina, Islami Ladina.
• 34:02
  Hadu, Waraban Yuna. Well, Abaru, yeah.
• 34:05
  So he says that we've sent down the Torah here within there's
• 34:09
  guidance and light. And the Prophets, they do hakum
• 34:12
  by it. They they, they judge by it.
• 34:15
  They rule by it. Right.
• 34:17
  And it says what Rabbi what Rabbi Nyuna.
• 34:20
  Well ABBA, the people that were the squalors from them.
• 34:24
  Yeah. So the priests from them or the
• 34:26
  rabbis from them those who understood the scripture to the
• 34:30
  highest extent were those who are responsible for ruling by
• 34:34
  it. So we can see that like and it's
• 34:38
  it's a it's a recurring theme across the like Quran under the
• 34:42
  Wyatt that this is the way the authority works that there's a
• 34:47
  lot of authority in the Quran, it's the prophets, it's the
• 34:49
  imams and then it's the scholars right.
• 34:52
  And those are the reason for that is because they're the ones
• 34:55
  that understand the religion the best and are able to apply it in
• 34:59
  the best way in any given situation.
• 35:02
  So like I said, of course if I'm Ali's government is not
• 35:05
  necessarily going to be exactly the same as how Imam Cyber Zaman
• 35:09
  rules in that period of time where we have the occultation,
• 35:13
  we have the raber. There has to be an answer.
• 35:16
  There has to be a a, a system that is given to you by Allah
• 35:21
  that those who are most understanding of his religion,
• 35:25
  of the Quran of the Ahlbeit have a responsibility to then
• 35:29
  actually bring into existence and actually, you know, make it
• 35:33
  actualize it. But.
• 35:34
  You mean even even on a non governmental level?
• 35:37
  Yeah, what I mean of course this is what I feel as well because I
• 35:40
  I think it's forgive me say, but I think for those who say like
• 35:45
  we can't do anything until the Imam comes.
• 35:47
  I thought like that's a bit of a naive approach because active
• 35:51
  interval is the preparation and setting the foundation, setting
• 35:54
  the groundworks from now, even if it's just educating oneself.
• 35:57
  Like we said earlier on on the methodology of the Imam Salaam
• 36:01
  when it came to dealing with people and we've seen in the
• 36:03
  lives of the Imam different political environments for the
• 36:07
  different imams. Imam Salah Islam was in between
• 36:10
  two transition period between the two ruling ruling dynasties
• 36:15
  of the time, their maids and their buses.
• 36:17
  We've seen imams in under house arrest.
• 36:18
  We've seen imams who were sitting in the government or who
• 36:20
  would qualify themselves. And and in my opinion, I think
• 36:24
  those are examples for us to be able to understand how Islam
• 36:28
  prevailed or how Shiism prevailed at a time of
• 36:33
  environment X or environment Y, if that makes sense.
• 36:35
  You know, and at least on a on a foundational level, we should
• 36:39
  educate ourselves and be able to understand what are the morals
• 36:43
  that the imam is looking for. Because there's another, excuse
• 36:47
  me, there's another hadith where mum Ali Al Islam where he tells
• 36:50
  his governors look for the people in if you've got a vacant
• 36:54
  position, look for the people. And forgive.
• 36:57
  I heard the Arabic or I read it earlier and I don't, I'm not
• 37:00
  going to even like begin to attempt it.
• 37:02
  But he says look for the people from good homes, from credible
• 37:06
  families and with track records. Don't look for the people who
• 37:09
  have just got a fancy CV basically in in, you know, in a
• 37:12
  nutshell, he's basically saying that you want people who are
• 37:15
  qualified and who earn the position based on credibility
• 37:19
  rather than those who seem to be like putting themselves forward
• 37:22
  because they want the name and fame.
• 37:23
  Even even the fact that Imam Ali had governors at all.
• 37:27
  Because if you, if you think about it, it's not in today's
• 37:30
  age where you have the Internet or you have instant access to
• 37:33
  the governor, right? The governor's gone off into
• 37:35
  wherever he's gone off into, and he rules right wherever his area
• 37:40
  is, he's sorting it out. So someone like Malika Ashtar,
• 37:43
  for example, right? Sent as a Wally, right?
• 37:46
  Yeah. Even though he's not Matt Storm,
• 37:49
  Ali considers him as suitable to be able to run a specific area.
• 37:54
  Right and. That shows Malik.
• 37:57
  Yeah, that's true. But like even when we look at
• 37:59
  for example the idea of the Fakir in general, right, we
• 38:02
  spoke about Rabbani and Al ABBA, right?
• 38:04
  These people that are best suited to understand the Quran
• 38:07
  and the Hadith. When the albeit speak about the
• 38:10
  the Fakhar in general, the conditions they set for the
• 38:14
  Fakir are like are immense, right?
• 38:17
  For example, there's a hadith imamsad al Salaam.
• 38:20
  I think it's in Ajalakashi, but I don't think I've marked it.
• 38:22
  He says Lana Udu fakihon fakihon Lana udu men al fakihon hatsai
• 38:31
  kun mohaddathan, Right. We don't consider a fakih from
• 38:35
  the fakhahat to be a proper jurist, a proper scholar until
• 38:40
  he is divinely inspired, spoken to Muhaddaf and like muhaddaf in
• 38:44
  like the narrations is generally speaking.
• 38:46
  It's like when an angel's speaking to and the companion's
• 38:49
  confused. He says oh, you're calling me
• 38:51
  know Muhaddaf and is a normal believer able to ever be
• 38:54
  divinely inspired And the Imam says you're calling Mufahman
• 38:57
  Well, well, mufahammal muhadda. He says that he'll be made to
• 39:00
  understand, he'll be given understanding, divine
• 39:03
  understanding from the Imam through unseen ways.
• 39:06
  Right. So that kind of condition, those
• 39:09
  conditions that the Imam set for that fucking now whether that
• 39:12
  exists or not is a different, is a different conversation.
• 39:15
  Do we have for her at that level which do that meet those
• 39:18
  conditions right? That unseen guidance from the
• 39:22
  Imam or from a loss of panel to Allah we have it or not is a
• 39:26
  different discussion. But the Imams, that's how they
• 39:29
  set their their precedent. This is the kind of fucking that
• 39:32
  the Quran is speaking about when it says Rabbani on Walabar,
• 39:35
  right? Speaking about the Jews and the
• 39:37
  Christians, the priests and the rabbis but those from the that
• 39:40
  are actually really understanding of the Quran,
• 39:43
  albeit and able to apply it in any given period of time, That
• 39:46
  is possible. And we see that at the time of
• 39:48
  the Armani. Why is the Armani obligatory to
• 39:51
  follow. Yeah, he he the imam says, he
• 39:55
  says, well I hello le Muslim in and Yaltawi Ali, it's not
• 39:59
  allowed for a Muslim to go against him, for men, for women.
• 40:04
  Whoever does that goes against what Yamani said.
• 40:07
  And the Armani is not Masoom, right.
• 40:09
  But whoever goes against what he says is from the people of the
• 40:12
  Hellfire. He's made it obligatory for you
• 40:14
  to follow the Armani. Even though he's coming before
• 40:16
  Imam Al Mahdi, even if it's not a government, but it is a
• 40:20
  movement, a significant movement where everybody kind of has to
• 40:23
  listen to and that's what the Imam has said.
• 40:26
  And the Imami, although he is chosen by the Imam, the Imami is
• 40:31
  a title. At the end of the day there's
• 40:33
  going to be a guy that comes and he's got a movement, He's got
• 40:37
  the signs of the Imani and he's going to say I'm the Imani,
• 40:40
  follow me and we will not have an imam to tell us.
• 40:44
  Yes, that's the Imani. But we will have to recognise
• 40:47
  him and follow him and it's why they want us to follow him.
• 40:49
  Which is why the I think the the the the knowledge of Quran and
• 40:52
  Hadith especially is so important because then we won't
• 40:55
  have the tools, the equipment to be able to recognise the Imani
• 40:58
  as an example, let alone recognise the Holy Imam when he
• 41:01
  arrives and when he returns, let alone be able to be part of the
• 41:04
  unsight of the Holy Imam. Like there's there's there's
• 41:07
  hierarchical, like like process for us to follow, bro.
• 41:12
  We live in a country where people don't even know what the
• 41:14
  major parties are to vote for. How are we going to be able to
• 41:17
  say, yeah, I understand, I'm. I'm able to be part of the
• 41:19
  imams, bro. You don't know how the world
• 41:21
  works. Now shouldn't how far our fucker
• 41:23
  heart. No, of course not, of course
• 41:27
  not, no. Why?
• 41:29
  The Fukaha have their role and of course we discussed this last
• 41:32
  week. It's my opinion.
• 41:33
  Of course the Fukaha have their role.
• 41:35
  The model Jaya as an institution has its role.
• 41:37
  Of course like Muhammad Ali said as well that there's there's the
• 41:40
  the absolutely incredible conditions that are set for for
• 41:44
  the Monaja to sit in office per SE and to get to that level
• 41:48
  itself takes decades of of scholarship.
• 41:50
  But for the everyday community member, for the Mott Minin, we
• 41:55
  are participants, we make up the meat of the Omar, we are the
• 41:59
  organs of the Omar and to the point where we are the the
• 42:03
  workers and we're the labourers of the Omar.
• 42:05
  So when the Imam arrives, or even in preparation for the for
• 42:08
  the holy Imam, we are the ones who are meant to be doing the
• 42:11
  work that the Imam wants us to do, minimum carry sacks of of
• 42:15
  food on his back to the a time we should be doing that
• 42:19
  ourselves. Because we know what he did,
• 42:21
  right? So we know what the way he
• 42:23
  acted, where he dealt with trade and agriculture crafts, the way
• 42:26
  he dealt with with with Foreign Relations, the way he dealt with
• 42:29
  interfaith. These are things that we we've
• 42:31
  got the groundwork on right? And we can be laymen.
• 42:35
  You know, we might be in youth clubs or in universities or
• 42:37
  whatever it might be. But we're we're smart enough to
• 42:40
  understand that because we now live in a globalized world.
• 42:42
  We have access to education. We have access to to the
• 42:45
  Internet. We can pick up hadith books like
• 42:47
  Muhammad's got and be able to to to see and clear black and white
• 42:51
  text the way governments were run and not even that the way
• 42:55
  they will be run. And of course we're lucky as
• 42:58
  well because we we live in a world now where we see different
• 43:01
  types of government. We see monarchy, we see liberal
• 43:03
  democracy, we see other democracies which which are are
• 43:06
  set up differently to the one we live in.
• 43:08
  For example, some which are more imposing on on a two party
• 43:11
  system, some which allow like a public vote or or you know,
• 43:16
  different kind of. Setups, yeah, but these are all
• 43:18
  like examples of democracies that are not in line with
• 43:21
  Islamic. But my point being says that
• 43:23
  we've seen all the theories, all the isms have been promoted and
• 43:27
  put forward right. The last example is the example
• 43:31
  of the had a beta name of Salaam, right?
• 43:33
  And, and and because of that, we're able able to dictate that,
• 43:35
  look, there's nothing in the past has worked right over the
• 43:38
  last 1400 years. Nothing has been able to
• 43:40
  flourish. It either results in war or
• 43:42
  poverty or both. Do you see what I mean?
• 43:44
  So how do we get the? Yeah, so.
• 43:46
  How do we get the correct? The thing is.
• 43:49
  Pause, Pause. Pause, Pause.
• 43:50
  Sorry, I'm very, very sorry to interrupt your episode of
• 43:53
  Aftermarket. But Brothers, Sisters, I have a
• 43:55
  very, very important announcement and that is that
• 43:58
  this episode is sponsored by the brothers and sisters at Thucker
• 44:01
  Lane Media. And Thakalane Media, for those
• 44:04
  who don't know, is an incredible hub of knowledge and resources
• 44:07
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• 44:11
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  supporting organisations like ours by doing so.
• 44:52
  Now back to the episode. Hope you enjoy it.
• 44:55
  There's generation, a very interesting one from Kitab Salim
• 44:58
  from Ali. And he says, well, yeah, is
• 45:08
  that. Yeah.
• 45:21
  He says that the first thing that Muslims should do after the
• 45:24
  imam dies, Yeah, Whether he's killed, whether he's killed or
• 45:28
  he dies, he says is that they don't say anything.
• 45:31
  They don't do anything. They don't move hands or feet
• 45:35
  except before they choose an imam for themselves.
• 45:38
  Someone who is an Ailim. Yeah.
• 45:40
  Knowing of the religion, what are an Arif and Bilhah was
• 45:43
  Sunnah and someone who understands the Khabar and the
• 45:45
  Sunnah. And the purpose of this is like
• 45:49
  he he brings them upon one affair, right.
• 45:56
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 45:57
  He says that he takes the the right of the right of the
• 46:01
  oppressed from the that who the person who oppressed him and he
• 46:06
  he protects their movements. Yeah.
• 46:09
  And he gives them their fate, right.
• 46:11
  Their spurs of war, right. Their pilgrimages, they're
• 46:18
  leading their prayers and the sadaqat, all of these things are
• 46:22
  the function that the imam says that the people need to choose.
• 46:25
  So when we talk about even democracy, right, Democracy, Of
• 46:29
  course, when there's an Imam that Allah is choosing, right?
• 46:32
  There's no democracy, Allah chooses and that's it.
• 46:34
  And this generation, even it says this is the first thing
• 46:39
  they should do. Yeah, he says that they should
• 46:44
  choose an Imam that brings upon brings them upon one affair if
• 46:49
  the choice is for them. Yeah, where you type and they
• 46:53
  should follow him and obey him. When candidates in another says
• 47:01
  that if Allah and Rasul have already chosen, then that's it,
• 47:04
  right? They've they've left you without
• 47:07
  having to actually look through the people and choose somebody.
• 47:09
  But here they're saying that the imam's not here, this is a
• 47:12
  solution for the Reba, right? This is saying imam's not there.
• 47:15
  What do we do? Right, And this is Amira
• 47:18
  Mulminian with foresight, of course, knowing that there's
• 47:20
  going to be Araba, knowing that there's going to be a 12th imam.
• 47:23
  And knowing that one day we are going to sit here and ask what
• 47:26
  is the solution to this. And we're going to have the
• 47:30
  hadith of Amir Mulminian in him saying that we do need to
• 47:33
  establish governments that as as a as a fundamental step, because
• 47:37
  there are those that even say like, why don't we just wait for
• 47:40
  the Imam, right. And there's a lot of people that
• 47:44
  hold that opinion that they say when the imam comes, he will
• 47:47
  just sort everything out, right. But the fact that the Imams
• 47:50
  actually put emphasis on, look, this is something that's
• 47:54
  necessary. You need to find a leader,
• 47:56
  choose the leader, find somebody that's an RLM, has Wara, has
• 48:00
  understanding of the Qatar and the Sunnah and bring him in.
• 48:03
  So that at the very least we're not sitting idle, we're not
• 48:07
  sitting like without anything because that like we can talk
• 48:10
  about a little bit about the history of the development in
• 48:13
  Shiism specifically because Shiism hasn't always been a a
• 48:18
  religion that has power, right. We, there's been a lot of times
• 48:23
  where we've just been oppressed, just no leadership, no
• 48:27
  governance specifically, right. And those times obviously were
• 48:30
  different to the times that we do have power, because then
• 48:33
  people come up with theories and people try their best to
• 48:37
  implement that which is best from the whole island, Sunnah.
• 48:40
  And like you said many a time it has not worked.
• 48:42
  And can I if I can just add really quickly like we've seen
• 48:45
  communist, capitalist, secular societies over centuries.
• 48:49
  But finally we're we're kind of at a point where like you
• 48:52
  mentioned saying living in the West, we have some freedoms.
• 48:54
  We enjoy some freedoms, although it's very hard to earn and save
• 48:57
  money in these days. But even then we can do the
• 49:00
  ground work, like we can set up the institutions, you know,
• 49:03
  whether it's Hauser or whether it's schools, hospitals, we can
• 49:09
  whatever, housing, charity of forms, you know, we can invest
• 49:13
  in like the institutions which already exist and are doing
• 49:16
  great work. And we see on a very like
• 49:19
  Microcosmic level are community institutions, like there are
• 49:23
  institutions in the UK or even globally who represent a certain
• 49:27
  community. Do you see what I mean?
• 49:29
  And you have some sort of a welfare system, for example, to
• 49:31
  represent their community of Shiism without naming names.
• 49:34
  But these institutions are microcosmic societies of Islamic
• 49:38
  governments, governors, because they're able to.
• 49:40
  Then, for example, we talk about world federation.
• 49:42
  Yeah, World Federation who support and are the umbrella
• 49:46
  body of 150, two, 100,000 Cojas around the world.
• 49:50
  They will you know support those in poverty in the subcontinent
• 49:54
  from the cojack community. They will build houses, they
• 49:56
  will sponsor students to go to Houser, They will invest in the
• 50:00
  mosques, they will invest in the sports clubs, they will invest
• 50:02
  in disabilities and mental health awareness and get have a
• 50:05
  marriage counselling thing and have spouse selection things.
• 50:08
  And my point being is that we are fallibles, we are non
• 50:12
  marsorm, but we have the capability to be able to engage,
• 50:15
  invest and and grow like the existing institutions and put
• 50:20
  forward institutions if they don't already exist.
• 50:22
  When it comes to the selection of the IRIF and the IRIF and all
• 50:26
  of these things bro, I'm not going to lie that's that's like
• 50:29
  a like it sounds just in my opinion like I don't know how
• 50:34
  that would work today. Do you know what I mean?
• 50:36
  Like, how does one choose the, you know, the representative or
• 50:41
  the one who is an authority? Like that's That's probably
• 50:44
  another conversation, and probably I need to ask a
• 50:45
  scholar. This is why I said early on,
• 50:47
  shouldn't this be done by the hour for a heart?
• 50:50
  Because who, who are we like to to say, for example, OK, he's
• 50:53
  suitable. I think everything should be
• 50:55
  done under the under the guidance and maybe with the
• 50:58
  blessing of the foka. Of course, that's what the
• 51:00
  that's what the rewards are saying, right?
• 51:02
  They're speaking about foka. There's a reward, right?
• 51:06
  That the are leaders of the society.
• 51:08
  They are the people that will choose image out to Alekum
• 51:12
  Hakiman. Wasn't that what they're?
• 51:13
  Doing here now today for example, like you give the
• 51:15
  examples of, for example, wealth, Federation and the work
• 51:17
  that they do. Yeah, I know.
• 51:19
  So much Mirage and the officers. There's similar work.
• 51:21
  Yeah, yeah. But the point being is that
• 51:23
  these are like community members.
• 51:25
  The problems? They don't work together.
• 51:27
  Well, I mean, that's another conversation itself.
• 51:29
  So how will you ever end up you? Could argue there are
• 51:32
  institutions that do things under the guardianship of the
• 51:35
  LMR who have a jazzer from the manager to collect comps and
• 51:38
  then they use the comps and the the the the Maharaja will give
• 51:41
  Homs allowance and then they will use the Homs to build a
• 51:44
  hospital for argument's sake, an area of need will build a well
• 51:47
  in somewhere else. Do you know what I mean?
• 51:49
  But the the the point being is that those those who have
• 51:53
  reached the level of Majiya and who are Maharaja and themselves
• 51:56
  that they are then engaging with the community and the community
• 52:00
  are are doing things under the guidance of the scholars who
• 52:03
  know the religion like these are through natural evolution, the
• 52:08
  Safara of the Holy Imam, the 12th Imam, do you know what I
• 52:11
  mean? Just through like natural
• 52:13
  evolution over 1000 plus years, we're now here today where we
• 52:18
  have the Grandma Raja who allow us to to operate in the way we
• 52:21
  function and you know we're trying to work towards.
• 52:25
  But I think. I think it's also important to
• 52:27
  recognise that even as our Grandma Raja as the grand
• 52:32
  scholars that over time things have we haven't always been able
• 52:38
  to reach a a complete answer and that's okay right.
• 52:42
  We have we look at for example if we look at the Shia
• 52:44
  governments in history. Yeah in general right we have at
• 52:47
  the time of Shekel Murphy we have the boy he and the weed
• 52:51
  empire right. Which is vaguely Shia.
• 52:53
  And at that time you have Shekel Murphy writing a few things
• 52:56
  about Islamic governance, the Fari and this kind of stuff.
• 53:01
  Then you have Sherry Fermotova and Makassi, a couple of lines
• 53:04
  for the Faqih and his like, you know, leadership over a
• 53:08
  community and some lines of theory.
• 53:10
  Then for a few centuries, the Shi'ite are not in power.
• 53:14
  So no one's really writing about Islamic governance.
• 53:16
  Like it's an irrelevant topic. And that for those few centuries
• 53:20
  then you kind of have like the Safavids, right.
• 53:23
  And the safavids, you have Mahak Al Karaki, right?
• 53:27
  He comes and he basically establishes and builds upon the
• 53:30
  idea of the walaya of the fokaha, the guardianship or
• 53:35
  basically of the of the scholars.
• 53:37
  And he's he's, he's, he's building on that idea that has
• 53:42
  has been brought up in early Islam in Sheikh Al Mufid's time
• 53:46
  and and that time. And then at that point you see
• 53:50
  the scholars have some sort of like power in the government,
• 53:53
  right. You have like Al Al Majlisi also
• 53:56
  like having quite significant kind of influence and then you
• 54:02
  come to kind of the colonial world, right.
• 54:05
  And then at that point it's like, you know, there's also the
• 54:09
  Ottomans that they have their Khilafah and there's a lot of
• 54:15
  obviously outside of the school of Ahilbeit as well.
• 54:17
  There's a lot of you. You would always see scholars in
• 54:20
  in with the governments and you know they would have their
• 54:24
  questionable ideas or whatever in relation to whatever
• 54:26
  government they were in. And then we have post
• 54:29
  colonialization when where now there are nation states right?
• 54:34
  Nation states come into play and now no one knows what it means
• 54:38
  to be an Islamic country. Yeah.
• 54:40
  Because truly, there's no, I mean there are.
• 54:43
  We talk about in terms of Shiism, the only the only
• 54:46
  Islamic country by constitution is Iran, right?
• 54:49
  So, for example, you have shared dominated countries like Iraq as
• 54:51
  an example, but it's a secular state.
• 54:53
  Iraq is secular. There's no, no, no, like as far
• 54:57
  as I'm aware, no obligation for the head of state to be Shia,
• 55:01
  right? That's completely fine if you're
• 55:03
  an Iraqi politician and like you said, you enjoy the same
• 55:06
  privileges as you do in the West.
• 55:08
  If you're talking about in terms of Islamic governance and she
• 55:11
  constitutions the only one which follows it is Iran.
• 55:14
  Because like you mentioned, said Khomeini followed on from that
• 55:18
  that Islam, as we talked about for the podcast, where you get
• 55:22
  to the point of the guardianship of the jurors.
• 55:24
  Yeah. So you see even in like the
• 55:26
  1920s or earlier than that as what you have Mirza Shirazi
• 55:29
  getting involved with his tobacco fatwa for example,
• 55:33
  getting involved in politics and following that following the
• 55:37
  break of the Ottoman Empire, you have all these nation States and
• 55:41
  a lot of thinkers come into the play right as to what should we
• 55:45
  do. You have for example thinkers
• 55:46
  like Hassan Al Banna say the Kotob, say Kotob right the from
• 55:51
  the Muslim Brotherhood and they have their thinkers thinking
• 55:56
  about how to like form a Islamic government in in the world that
• 56:01
  we live in at the time. And they they have ideas of
• 56:04
  Shura. And similarly we have in our
• 56:06
  kind of scholarship we have Sable Jodi, you have Shaheed
• 56:12
  Bakra Sadar later on as well you have like then you have
• 56:15
  obviously said Khomeini coming with the idea of will.
• 56:19
  You have said Mohammed Shirazi as well had a theory with
• 56:21
  regards to like Shura al Fakhar, a council of jurists and all of
• 56:26
  these kind of ideas and theories.
• 56:29
  You see them, obviously they they they're all valid jurist
• 56:32
  prudential opinions. But the influences for them are
• 56:36
  a lot of the time based on what seems to be working, what looks
• 56:40
  like it's working right? And that would be what the
• 56:43
  scholars would kind of go towards with obviously the most
• 56:46
  successful of them today as we see the system in Iran of course
• 56:51
  with Sadul Khomeini actually actualising what was before just
• 56:55
  in books into an actual system of what I said FAPE.
• 57:00
  So yeah and and I think that with with I said fucky, if we
• 57:04
  can quickly gloss over it, it's it.
• 57:07
  It is representative in the in the sense that the social and
• 57:12
  socio political issues are what are most kind of fixated upon.
• 57:17
  You'll never see that the fucky is trying to overstep with
• 57:21
  regards to matters of theft that are difference of opinion like
• 57:25
  in in his own like kind of like in his own jurisdiction.
• 57:29
  Obviously for his own followers right, he will give them a
• 57:32
  resale amalia or whatever. But with regards to those things
• 57:34
  are spoken about in public, those things are enforced.
• 57:37
  They're all very much social right.
• 57:40
  For example, the issue of hijab right in Iran, which is
• 57:43
  obviously a long discussion in itself, right?
• 57:45
  But the way that it's enforced right, he has a vision.
• 57:49
  He understands that this matter, this understanding of hijab or
• 57:55
  this concept of hijab, if it goes a certain way, this is how
• 57:59
  it's going to affect the Islamic government.
• 58:02
  If it goes this way, this is how it's going to affect it.
• 58:04
  And based on that judgement in the Rewire to school Tazir,
• 58:08
  right. And this is kind of authority
• 58:11
  that that fakih has to be able to make judgement at that time
• 58:14
  to say what needs to be done with regards to hijab.
• 58:16
  Because obviously we look at like some of the narrations and
• 58:19
  stuff, we're never going to find necessarily a punishment for not
• 58:23
  wearing hijab or these kinds of things.
• 58:25
  But these are implemented because the fakih sees it as
• 58:28
  necessary at that specific time to do it a specific way, yeah.
• 58:32
  Yeah, there will always be different theories that are
• 58:34
  posed, whether it's from the fokaha or whether it's from the
• 58:38
  layman. But I think just kind of
• 58:40
  wrapping up because we went towards the end, it's important.
• 58:43
  It's important for us, like we said at the beginning of the
• 58:46
  conversation, at this juncture, where we live in like the the
• 58:49
  most, like scary of times. In many ways, I think many of us
• 58:54
  feel today that we are one step closer to the Holy Imam than we
• 58:58
  were nine months ago. I don't know if you guys feel
• 59:00
  the same way but I definitely feel that and I feel like we're
• 59:03
  all thinking about when is it, when is it, when is it, when is
• 59:06
  it? With that, there has to be a
• 59:09
  conscious inclusion of the Holy Imam in every conversation and
• 59:12
  that includes conversational politics.
• 59:14
  Apathy amongst Muslim communities is rampant.
• 59:18
  Like you know the in the uki know we're kind of on different
• 59:21
  spectrums, bro. You're just pulling out the mad
• 59:23
  hadith and going through it the full Islamic history and I'm I'm
• 59:28
  very much like engaged and and very very focused on the on.
• 59:33
  The Labour Party. No, not even.
• 59:35
  That's the harm of the conversation.
• 59:37
  But no, like just in the UK for example, the lowest engaged
• 59:44
  community, any of any socio economic group as the Muslim
• 59:48
  community in London. Why?
• 59:50
  Like how are we, those who inherited the religion of the
• 59:54
  Holy Prophet, which does not make sense, Like we should be
• 59:57
  engaged, We should not even be voting.
• 1:00:00
  And when I say voting, I mean voting for a candidate if there
• 1:00:03
  is one who is worthy of your vote, right?
• 1:00:07
  Because that's a very important point.
• 1:00:09
  But not just voting, but engaging with the political
• 1:00:11
  system. I don't mean running for office,
• 1:00:13
  but engaging with the political system that we live in today.
• 1:00:16
  That could be through pressure groups.
• 1:00:18
  It could be through obviously we see all the time WhatsApp
• 1:00:21
  petitions. We have a say.
• 1:00:22
  We have some influence. Campaigns, protests, just public
• 1:00:27
  awareness of of moral enforcement of goodness, which
• 1:00:31
  is what we don't have. And I feel like that we need to
• 1:00:33
  disrupt society to the point where we enforce goodness and
• 1:00:37
  that is through the inheritance of the the, the what they put
• 1:00:42
  forward. Do you see what I mean?
• 1:00:43
  And of course what we see the guidance and and the the wisdom
• 1:00:46
  that we gain from our Fort Gaha because that that's so
• 1:00:49
  important. You know, early on, yeah, early
• 1:00:52
  on. I told you I'm happy living here
• 1:00:53
  in the UK. I was talking from the
• 1:00:55
  perspective of, for example, practicing my faith.
• 1:00:58
  Yeah, yeah, of course. And especially in my in
• 1:01:00
  particular, she, she, I believed in she or whatever.
• 1:01:03
  You wear those for car, you play play your boss.
• 1:01:05
  I mean the car. No, it's.
• 1:01:06
  Going to say anything, but I don't.
• 1:01:07
  I don't think it's a society I'm happy with because the journey
• 1:01:10
  is not. Yeah.
• 1:01:10
  Today was one example. I today I had the opportunity to
• 1:01:13
  pick my girls from school after school and I took them to the
• 1:01:17
  playground. It was a nice sunny day to the
• 1:01:19
  playground. I went home and there came a
• 1:01:23
  moment. I was like, Yella, we need to
• 1:01:25
  leave the park. Why?
• 1:01:26
  There was a bunch of this. This is what's surprising.
• 1:01:29
  And it'd be interesting in this conversation.
• 1:01:31
  There was a group, There were a bunch of females.
• 1:01:35
  I think 80% were hijabis. They were swearing the the F
• 1:01:39
  word, the B, all the words. You can imagine.
• 1:01:41
  They were spitting one of them a smoke.
• 1:01:43
  Yeah, I was shocked. I was like girls, let's go to.
• 1:01:46
  I took them to another park. So I took them to another
• 1:01:48
  playground. I went there.
• 1:01:49
  Now I saw another group of young boys, all Muslim.
• 1:01:52
  I can tell they're Muslim. Smoking the weed, playing the
• 1:01:55
  silly music and just swearing at each other.
• 1:01:58
  Let's go home. There's not society only being.
• 1:02:00
  And when you're on an Islamic Society, a true Islamic Society,
• 1:02:05
  and we earn, we earn for this insha'allah.
• 1:02:07
  To be in that state one day where you are comfortable to go
• 1:02:11
  out of your home with your children and have a safe
• 1:02:14
  environment where you know morality is not going to corrupt
• 1:02:17
  anyone's mind. And I think I use the example of
• 1:02:20
  a job being enforced in Iran or something.
• 1:02:22
  For example, the reason they use is that, you know, they're
• 1:02:25
  trying to stop society from becoming a moral for example.
• 1:02:28
  I see that point. I'm not saying I'm, I agree with
• 1:02:31
  it. I disagree with it.
• 1:02:32
  As the scholars can discuss. This is not for me.
• 1:02:34
  But I see that point and one example was why I witnessed here
• 1:02:37
  today. And if we if we are having
• 1:02:39
  Muslims acting in a certain way and the freedoms that we have in
• 1:02:43
  this country, what's left of Islam?
• 1:02:45
  And at least I know someone who can rule under the the laws on
• 1:02:50
  the Shariah Al Allah, the son of Rasul Allah, the teachings of
• 1:02:53
  the Alibi Ali Salaam. At least that's something that
• 1:02:56
  will help us 100. Percent.
• 1:02:59
  I'm not saying for let's use Iran here.
• 1:03:01
  I'm not saying that the best version of an Islamic
• 1:03:04
  government, but what's? What's the alternative?
• 1:03:06
  It's the best way of. What's the alternative?
• 1:03:08
  I'll be very honest, Danny, I We can have jurists and scholars.
• 1:03:11
  They can disagree with opinions, how things are governed, how
• 1:03:14
  things are run. Everyone has an opinion at the
• 1:03:16
  end today. What's alternative?
• 1:03:18
  Yeah, I I I think I just want to echo what Ahmed was saying that,
• 1:03:22
  you know, I think we all feel closer to now the time of the
• 1:03:26
  Imam. And it's important that we do
• 1:03:30
  get involved in even these discussions, at the very least,
• 1:03:35
  if not having to to vote for a candidate that we may not deem
• 1:03:39
  worthy of being voted. But I think this is a great
• 1:03:42
  time, by the way, to shout out jump our nights because we had.
• 1:03:46
  Your. Presence your selfie.
• 1:03:48
  We did. We did.
• 1:03:49
  You Here's the shout out. We did two episodes.
• 1:03:51
  We did three episodes in fact, on the the whole of the Imam of
• 1:03:55
  our time. We spoke about the importance of
• 1:03:58
  our actions prior to the whole and how they actually affect.
• 1:04:02
  Here's the whole our actions right now will affect how the
• 1:04:05
  whole plays out. We had the second episode as
• 1:04:09
  well with regards to three signs about Imam Mehdi, right?
• 1:04:13
  Talking about the Armani Khorasani and the Sofiani.
• 1:04:16
  All of those are very important discussions because the closer
• 1:04:19
  we get to them, the more we need to be informed about what is in
• 1:04:23
  the narration so that we can recognize them as they come.
• 1:04:26
  There was a point where you spoke about fake scholars as
• 1:04:28
  well, right? Yeah, that was.
• 1:04:29
  The third episode, that was the 3rd episode, so for scholars.
• 1:04:32
  You didn't. I don't know if you heard last
• 1:04:33
  week's episode. Yeah, I haven't.
• 1:04:35
  We ref. Yeah.
• 1:04:36
  You mentioned that. Yeah, from Yeah.
• 1:04:38
  Yeah. Oh, OK.
• 1:04:39
  Yeah, say that Ali didn't mean Ahmed did on my.
• 1:04:43
  Behalf. Yeah, so, yeah, well.
• 1:04:45
  Thank you both. Thanks for coming on.
• 1:04:47
  I'll I'll say goes without saying that you are like like
• 1:04:52
  you should be sitting here instead of us, we.
• 1:04:56
  We. We we all do our jobs, man.
• 1:05:00
  No, Long live more Ali and guys at home.
• 1:05:02
  If you agree with me comment please below comment Muhammad
• 1:05:05
  Ali to come back and shout a lot and also if you think Muhammad
• 1:05:09
  Ali should be because I feel like he should be a more
• 1:05:12
  frequent, I don't even want to say don't say yes Co host on
• 1:05:17
  after marketing then let us know because we're trying to get him.
• 1:05:20
  Triple trouble Charlo. Found the dotted line.
• 1:05:25
  Thank you. Thank you guys.
• 1:05:26
  I I definitely learn a lot, learnt a lot I think.
• 1:05:29
  I hope you guys at home don't take any of what we said to
• 1:05:32
  heart because obviously ultimately this is all our own
• 1:05:34
  opinion and beyond that as well. Like I said at the beginning,
• 1:05:38
  we're not experts in political theory, we're not experts in
• 1:05:42
  filk when we talk about the Fukaha, we're not experts in
• 1:05:45
  Islamic history, nor are we philosophers or anything like
• 1:05:48
  that. So don't take what we say as
• 1:05:50
  gospel or the same as take it to heart.
• 1:05:52
  Same as you, honestly. So obviously we're the same as
• 1:05:55
  them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:56
  But rather, I think what we want to do is.
• 1:05:59
  Perhaps, trust me, we're having the same conversations as them.
• 1:06:02
  Yes, that we have cameras and micro.
• 1:06:04
  Yeah, and because. These are discussions that we
• 1:06:06
  would have amongst 100. Percent.
• 1:06:08
  So you know it's only right to try and have them on.
• 1:06:12
  The podcast? No, you're right, You're.
• 1:06:13
  Right. It's representative of the
• 1:06:15
  discussions that we should be having as well, because they're
• 1:06:17
  important conversations. Yeah, you know, someone
• 1:06:19
  mentioned to me last week, he was like a good friend of mine,
• 1:06:21
  of all of ours actually. He was like, scratch the surface
• 1:06:26
  of topics that you think the community needs to have and
• 1:06:30
  bring the information that you think the community needs to
• 1:06:33
  engage in or research on and then let the community. 100%
• 1:06:37
  that's really important. Also bringing the culture of
• 1:06:39
  Ahlbeit is such a is so important is that you mentioned
• 1:06:42
  as well communists and I was speaking to one of my friends
• 1:06:45
  earlier communists on social media.
• 1:06:48
  When they speak about like their leaders, they speak about Mao.
• 1:06:52
  They'll say Mao said right And that's like an authority to
• 1:06:55
  them. It's like Mao said, the other
• 1:06:57
  guy will be like really, Mao said that It's like, oh, it's
• 1:07:00
  true now, right? We don't give that level of
• 1:07:03
  respect and like actually going towards the Quran and albeit to
• 1:07:07
  find our complete solution we need to give like the albeit to
• 1:07:12
  that same level of respect at the very least that the
• 1:07:14
  communists give Lenin and Mao. 100% the gravitas that they give
• 1:07:19
  to their leaders, 100% would you think that bro?
• 1:07:22
  Are they the God chosen hodja or do we have them, you know what
• 1:07:26
  I'm saying? So 100% guys last night, we
• 1:07:28
  think in the comments hopefully found it interesting, said I.
• 1:07:32
  Just want to say I decided to speak less on this occasion
• 1:07:36
  because I learned so much. Trust me, like these are
• 1:07:39
  hadiths. I bring in the ayah from the
• 1:07:40
  Quran and then the explanation of the example of how we see
• 1:07:44
  around today, for example, how it can work for us as a share in
• 1:07:47
  the Shia world. There's all things I can learn
• 1:07:49
  from and there are so much of things I want to share here, but
• 1:07:53
  does not benefit the listeners, all the viewers.
• 1:07:56
  So I'll keep that to myself and I share it with you after.
• 1:07:59
  The I'm just going to say something last on your behalf,
• 1:08:02
  if you don't mind, guys, JN is cooking right now.
• 1:08:05
  We're going to be back soon. We're bringing something really
• 1:08:07
  special for you. When I say Jen, I'm in Germany
• 1:08:09
  nights so you will see Muhammad Ali soon again.
• 1:08:12
  We've got something cool in the pipeline for everyone at home,
• 1:08:16
  but we're just working on it before we bring it to present it
• 1:08:20
  to Insha Allah, we will see you next week.
• 1:08:24
  Take care guys. Salaam alaikum.