Latest / Follow the Leighder / Where Federal Abortion Policy Stands Now | Katie O'Connor, NWLC
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- Leigh/@followtheleighder: Howdy folks and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leighder... I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and joining me today from Washington, DC, is Katie O'Connor. Katie, welcome to the studio. Katie O'Connor: Thank you so much. Thanks for inviting me. Happy to be happy to be here. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Folks, this is going to be an excellent, excellent conversation. Katie is the senior director of federal abortion policy at the National Women's Law Center. Before joining NWLC, she served as the Deputy Chief Counsel at Demand Justice, an organization fighting for progressive change in our courts. Katie has also served as director of policy development and programming at the American Constitution Society. Where she drove the organization's strategy on voting and democracy, equality and liberty. She previously litigated federal and state voting rights cases as staff counsel at Advancement Project and the ACLU Voting Rights Project. She's a Tennessee native, DC resident, and graduate of the Georgia Institute of Technology and Georgia State University College of Law. Well, first right off the bat, thank you for a career and life in service. I mean, it's palpable how much you have a heart for for justice and and for the communities of particularly vulnerable women communities. How did Tennessee shape that? and and Georgia, what did that upbringing in the South bring you into the the fight for women? Katie O'Connor: Yeah, I appreciate that question. I was I was raised Catholic in Tennessee. and I think I knew from a pretty young age that I was sort of a feminist. Sorry about my cat, by the way. He is very interested here. he Leigh/@followtheleighder: no, I was about to say we love it. Katie O'Connor: loves to be part of this. I think I understood from a pretty early age that I was a feminist even before I knew what that meant. I I remember in second grade you know, that's when boys were able to become alter boys in in mass and they wouldn't let me do it because I was a girl and I just understood to my core that that was an injustice. and I think that that was sort of what put me on a trajectory towards doing social justice work more broadly. where I really decided to sort of make this my life's work is in college. I actually did go to Georgia Tech, and Georgia Tech at the time was still like seventy-five percent men and twenty-five percent women. And it is at well, again, at the time it's been a while, but at the time it was pretty conservative, sort of little k little C conservative, not particularly political, but to the extent that it was it was, you know, people who were pretty conservative. and that feeling like sort of a minority sort of politically in the way that I felt about sort of social and cultural issues, I think made me louder. I was also given opportunities given that I was one of the few progressives on campus. So I served as like the president of the women's student union and stuff like that, which I think Maybe I wouldn't have had that opportunity had I gone to a school that was more sort of traditionally liberal. and when I got out of Georgia Tech, you know, I went in thinking I was gonna be an engineer. That's why I went to Georgia Tech. When I graduated, by the time I graduated, I knew that I wanted to do social justice work more broadly. My first job right out of college was actually at an abortion clinic. I worked at the front desk. at the Feminist Women's Health Center in in Atlanta, Georgia. I was there for a year looking for something a little bit more permanent. And I was lucky enough to get a job at the ACLU Voting Rights Project in Atlanta. so that was really my first, you know, permanent job again. I was there for about three years and decided I wanted to go to law school. I think I had always imagined I might, but that was sort of when I decided that yes, I was definitely going to do that. So I kept working during the day and I went to Georgia State College of Law at night. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well Katie O'Connor: But I ended up spending 10 years at the ACLU voting rights projects. My time there was mostly doing litigation to enforce the Voting Rights Act and section 14 or the 14th Amendment. And I went from there to another small civil rights organization, smaller civil rights organization called Advancement Project, where I did voting rights for another year. I promise I am gonna get to the women's rights work that I do. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: no. This is fantastic. No, no, this is fantastic. Katie O'Connor: so I so it was like voting rights for 11 years, and then I went to the American Constitution Society, where I really sort of expanded my portfolio a little bit to do some more women's rights, reproductive rights, LGBTQ rights, as well as the voting rights that I had been doing. So I I did that for about five years. And my most recent job before I started at the National Women's Law Center was an organization called Demand Justice, where we were really working for better judicial nominees. So the president nominates people who will become judges. And we were encouraging the president to nominate more women and more, you know, racial and ethnic minorities, but also people with more expansive experiences. A lot of judges sort of automatically come from corporate law or big law. And we were asking the president to nominate public defenders and people who had worked at organizations like the ACLU or the National Women's Law Center. but we were also looking at court reform, like ways to make the court a more democratic institution. And I think it was really all of that experience doing democracy reform more broadly, because I think about court reform and voting rights and all of these reforms that we sort of inherently understand we need right now as our democracy is sort of struggling. It was that broader focus on democracy reform that the more I sort of stepped back from what we were doing, the more I thought, you know, abortion rights are also a democracy issue. You can't have a really robust and functioning democracy if you if 50% of the population doesn't have control over their most basic you know, the decisions that are most basic to their lives and their health and their well being and their futures. so I started looking for jobs in reproductive rights and I was very lucky to go to the National Women's Law Center at a time when they had this job open and and that's how I ended up here. But my work in abortion rights is very much sort of framed by the democracy, lens through which I see it. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. I love that you said abortion and tied to democracy. I recently I I was speaking with some folks about birth control as a form of protection against sexual assault. Like adding that second layer of like, you know, 'cause typically the the the the gist is if you're on birth control, it's to go be promiscuous. And that that's that was not what I was was using if where I've done a lot of traveling, international travel and I was and and that was something I've done because I was like, I don't want to bring home a baby. But we've also talked about it like when we've done international humanitarian work and of looking out and whether it's in communities that are clearly impacted by a lack of democracy, you know, dictators, American corporate interest forces, those, or your own dictators, our stuff. But even like I mean, within their own communities. I I I I I just saw the the the ability for a woman to choose and control that. It was pivotal. I mean, it goes so much like even the idea of women wanting to use it for like to go out and just be promiscuous harlots, like I don't even I don't even care because of how much how much amazing good protection it goes at it from the at the the lowest level for so many different things. Can you talk? you've you've done a lot with democracy and abortion, reproductive justice. Can you give us a sort of history? you know, the Margaret's saying can you talk to us a little bit about women's reproductive justice rights in the United States? I know both white women but also women of color have particularly indigenous women have have a storied history too with our state, but very curious to hear from From you and your expertise, some notable reproductive justice cases in American history that you think my audiences could learn from? Katie O'Connor: Yeah, I mean I think the the history of abortion rights in the United States is pretty interesting. Like, you know, in sort of the 17 and early 1800s, abortion was just something that a woman and her doctor would talk about. and it was really between those two people. there weren't a lot of laws that outlawed abortion. Abortion laws started to become more prevalent and I think it was in the mid eighteen hundreds, although forgive me, I'm not a historian, but but it was in large part because the medical field was trying to professionalize itself and they saw abortions as something that was happening among, you know, midwives and other people that they sort of wanted to push out of the field. And so it was really not until until that happened that we started seeing laws that banned abortion. But even a lot of those laws that banned abortion, there was an understanding that it was abortion outside of the traditional medical field. so so you know when we talk about history as the Supreme Court does, like the the tradition and history of of of the United States and that's what sort of guides the United States or the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution. Like they kind of got it wrong. Abortion was was happening, and it was happening to a large extent legally before before Roe versus Wade and and at the time of the founding. But obviously we have, you know, these big cases that the Supreme Court has decided. I mean, I think something that's interesting is that it was like 1968 that the Supreme Court decided that. married couples have a right to to birth control, to access to birth control. and that right was founded in sort of the right to privacy. So so there is this privacy that is afforded to a married couple and the state doesn't have any right to invade on that privacy. But it was pretty quickly it pretty quickly thereafter the Supreme Court said, you know, that right extends to single women And in 1973 said the right to privacy also extends to the right to abortion. So so that is sort of how we got the right to abortion. As I think you probably know, what I think is interesting is that the opposition to the right to abortion was also pretty contrived. the opposition Sort of ramp so it was 1973 that the Supreme Court decided Roe vs. Wade, and then the opposition really started to ramp up in the eighties. And that was in large part, I mean, there is like documented history of this. It was large part because there were these factions of Christians who had wanted segregated schools for a long time and it became sort of politically unpalatable to continue to to call for segregated schools and they wanted something that would be politically palatable that would continue to like provide them power within the political system Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm-hmm. Katie O'Connor: and and that became abortion. So you know I think something that's interesting is you know In the pre-Roe vs. Wade days, there were like hotlines that you could call where you could find a doctor who would provide you abortion care, where you could get help seeking that care. And a lot of those hotlines were run by priests and nuns and other, you know, Christian ministers. so there was an understanding that abortion is part of reproductive health care and is is often you know necessary and good for women who have unintended or unwanted pregnancies. And you know, and that shifted to this very sort of staunch opposition to abortion, in part because political operatives understood that that was a way to essentially, you know, help the Republican Party. So that is the history Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Katie O'Connor: of like how we ended up with the anti-abortion movement that we have now. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm-hmm. Katie O'Connor: and I think it speaks volumes to I don't question that there are a lot of people in that movement who are sincerely very opposed to abortion. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Katie O'Connor: I also think it functions as a way to organize. religious people towards the Republican Party. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm-hmm. It absolutely does. And it's a way what's what's fascinating is I born and raised in Texas. My my mom did women's health does women's health care, political advocacy down in Texas. And but since moving to Montana, it's very Catholic libertarian. And you talk about you're you're Catholic. I'm coming from the South, you're in the South, like that Southern evangelical, which is different than Catholic. And definitely different than libertarian. But it what's really wild is up here, it is a red state. It's ag, it's oil, it's cowboy. but it had one of the it had the first female congresswoman elected. It had it we've had multiple queer and trans folks elected women. we have protected physician assisted suicide and abortion. And they did that. before I moved out, I was like, that's super progressive for a quote quote red state, but it comes with that it was just a different the language on it. And it was like it had the h the the compassion from the Catholic side of like that deep reverence, that sacredness for, you know, needing, you know, whatever for whether it was mercy or the the support of life, but there was like a reverence around the conversation. It wasn't just like, no, just abortion has birth control or just like a flippant attitude that you might hear in other players of the wood, just of the country, or just like sort of that. There's so that it remained this reverence, but it also was again exactly what you were saying. It was all about medical privacy. And I had never heard it worded like that until I got up here. And it was very much like No, no, no, what are we doing? You shouldn't we should have the God and government out of that conversation. That is between a woman and her doctor. What do you that you wouldn't get involved if it was about diabetes? And I was like, Yeah, you're right. Katie O'Connor: Right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Like why like you're and and so the other side, it was just like it was just a much it was just a different way to talk about it that I saw was still able to protect it at at the government level. At the state level. But also because the rhetoric around it was still pretty reverent or sacred, it never got into that hostility that, like where it's just, I don't know, that almost flippancy. It just was like a different way. It just never became too warlike. It is now, though. I mean, with the injunction of cash from Christian nationalists for sure. But Katie O'Connor: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: it is really powerful how language. can get things over the line or do different things. And I'm curious, I mean, just like you said, abortion became picked up and twisted when it just wasn't, especially not by Catholic priests back in the day. So so thank you for that. Your point to you know everything that has led up to now. Are there what regions of the country specifically have you been observing or have you been watching be impacted with policy related to reproductive justice that you feel very strongly Americans should know, speci like going into midterms. Katie O'Connor: Yeah, I mean, you can see there's just this huge so I'm from Tennessee. I lived in Georgia for a long time. Almost the entire Southeast is now you know, an abortion desert, an abortion care desert. You cannot get abortion care very widely in any of the states in the southeast. What I think is Perhaps un well, it's I I do think it's unintended and it's probably unpredicted that that would lead to such a dearth of maternal health care more generally. I mean, you know, I think what politicians who enact these abortion bans didn't think about or didn't foresee is that abortion is a part of the entire spectrum of pregnancy care and reproductive health care. you know, the the drugs we use and the procedures we use for abortion are the same drugs and procedures that we use for miscarriage care. You can't outlaw abortion care and expect OBGYNs to be able to get the experience they need to do all of the other kinds of health care that women and particularly pregnant people need. and so we have created these abortion care deserts, and I think the Southeast is the largest one, although there are huge parts of the Midwest as well. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Katie O'Connor: And and what we're seeing is what should have been a foreseeable consequence that that OBG Brians are leaving those states and w you know, people who want to carry their pregnancies are also struggling to find the care that they need. and so that is what these laws have done. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And it's just strange because it talks so much about focusing on the family. But like you said, I mean, it was married couples who wanted the protection and privacy of abortion care as early as the 60s. Yeah, because abortion is part of focusing on the family within their own language. I mean, like there are choices that you have to make about not wanting more kids so that you can focus on the family that you have. And so it's there's so much about Christian nationalist rhetoric that I you know, you wind up shooting yourself in the foot. The miscarriage medication is is Katie O'Connor: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: shared. Yet the that kind of thing where Katie O'Connor: Yeah, I mean, when we think about the Christian nationalist rhetoric in particular, it's it's anti-abortion, but it's anti-family in so many ways. I mean, I think one of the most glaring ways is, you know, there are sort of two separate issues, but they're they overlap a lot, and that is like the pro-natalist movement and the white Christian nationalist movement. And I think both of them are interested in sort of Creating a world where everybody is forced into these strict gender roles and these very sort of narrow traditional ideas of family. And and in both movements, the pro national the pronatalist movement and the Christian nationalist movement, there is like the opposition to abortion and more and more the opposition to birth control, because you know, those are ways for women not only to prevent becoming mothers, but also to have the capacity to get education and to Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Katie O'Connor: have careers. So, so you know, we see opposition to abortion and birth control and it sort of makes sense for that mindset. But we also see opposition to like IBF because that that would allow people to have more babies, but not in a way that that sort of re emphasizes the traditional notion of family that those movements want to see. And they're also opposed to like single parenthood and and same-sex marriage because those aren't the kind of families they want to see. So we see white Christian nationalists saying that they're pro family and that they want people to be able to have kids and to raise those kids in safe in safe spaces. but they also oppose a lot of the kinds of families that would allow the families to really flourish. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, absolutely. And that the the the structure too of all of it just is putting so much emphasis on on this this control of this thing that is very unstable in this economy, particularly in AI. how You talk about the Southeast is is an abortion desert. What how else does that trickle down? 'Cause it it if you're approaching women's health care or healthcare in general for your state, for your region, and you start with birth control or sorry, you start with abortion, it could be birth control. A lot of these states aren't even acknowledging menopause, which is my mom's specialty, which that's not Katie O'Connor: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: even a quote controversial. That's just every woman's gonna Katie O'Connor: Divide. Leigh/@followtheleighder: go through that. They won't even touch it 'cause reasons. But but where else can we expect? I mean, you talked about OBGYE and staff loss. that'll be huge. are there will it also trickle into things like breast cancer research or or very enc how what other ways does this attitude start to spread? Katie O'Connor: Yeah, it's a really good question. I I mean, I this is not necessarily my expertise and this is not entirely related, but you certainly see this administration slashing funding for a lot of research. And in particular because the administration has these anti DEI policies, so they want to get rid of anything that that is specifically meant to to assist, you know, research into sorry, if we can start that over. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. basically, so well, we can actually re-ask that question. So if you with when you start cutting abortion, you start to see obviously trickles of of reactions like OBGYN staff leaving, cuts to to research. What other ways does this impact women? Does it impact women's healthcare research? talk about Poverty, I mean this thing is pretty widespread, so we can generalize that question. Katie O'Connor: Yeah, it is. Well, yes. So a couple of things. Like, does it impact poverty? Absolutely. There is this amazing study that was done over a number of years, like a decade, called the turnaway study that shows what happens when people who are denied a wanted abortion, what happens to them in their future. Like what are the long term consequences? And they suffer really significant short and long-term economic consequences. So being denied a wanted abortion drives a lot of people into poverty and keeps them there. And you can look at that in the first six months, they're more likely to fall below the poverty line, but it it it lasts them essentially their lives. And so there are huge economic on consequences for people who are denied abortion care. I think there are huge dignitary consequences too. to being Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Katie O'Connor: forced. You know, I I especially when I talk to younger audiences, I think it's important to acknowledge like what the Dobbs decision did to just the psyches of of women. here was a right that we had for fifty years that was guaranteed under the constitution and To have that taken away from us, that is a huge dignitary harm and and and an ongoing dignitary harm, just having the right taken away from us. And then of course, if you're a person who has sought abortion care and is unable to get it, and you're forced to carry a pregnancy, forced by the state to carry a pregnancy, Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. Katie O'Connor: I think it's really Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. Katie O'Connor: worth noting that in addition to The obvious economic consequences, the health risks. you know, we hear this a lot, and it's absolutely true. Like carrying a pregnancy to term is really dangerous. People, Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Katie O'Connor: people die and people suffer, and people experience a lot of negative medical consequences and complications from carrying pregnancies to term. And to be forced to do that, you know, so they're just like, tons of consequences for individuals being denied access to abortion and to birth control and other reproductive health care. And then I think, you know, more on a broader level, like the societal consequences are we have, you know, these abortion care deserts that are becoming maternal health care deserts. You can see already there have been studies about OBGYNs who don't want to train in states with abortion bans because their work is so fraught in those states, because abortion is a part of the spectrum of women's health care. And so it's, you know, it's really it's harmful to individuals who can become pregnant. It's harmful to providers who want to provide the best care possible to their pa. to their patients and can't and it's harmful to the medical system more broadly to have to have essential care criminalized. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and I'm really glad that you brought up that dignity aspect of of like the state forcing an individual person to grow another human being. Like, I mean, it that is a there's no liberty in that. You know, if we talk just specifically libertarian, like what are our li that that is not a liberty there's no individual rights there. and the other thing being in seminary, we I wrote a paper in which another expert was talking about how in any other situation what a a fetus does to the human body hormonally, physiologically, structurally, all of it, I mean, you if it was not a baby, you would consider it a parasite, the way it impacts the and I just had never that that's an intense, harsh way to say it, but like that, I mean, if you don't want something like that, it is significant. to the host environment. That is massive. And not just the anyway, and and I just I think Katie O'Connor: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: about that is unethical to do that to a human being, to force them to to change hormonally and physiolog physiologically. Katie O'Connor: Yeah. It's true. And I will just mention, you know, the in the Dobbs decision that overturned Roe versus Wade, the majority talks some and at this maybe this is in a concurrence by Amy Coney Barrett, but she basically said, you know, we now have these these safe harbor bills where if you give birth and you don't want To raise a child, you can decide, and there are essentially like drop boxes at fire stations and stuff like that. So you can you can relinquish the the child and not raise it. And she said, like, doesn't doesn't the existence of these laws you know negate the need for access to abortion? And I just think like that is so dismissive of what happens to a person's Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Katie O'Connor: entire body for nine months of pregnancy and not just nine months. I mean like it is as if like the process of being pregnant and giving birth is is a sacrifice you should have to make you know as the state orders. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. Right. The church and state has sanctioned this. This is what you have to do. And and that sense of purpose. And I didn't know. It's going back again, like if there's w what is where's the liberty in that? Where is the freedom in that? And it is it's much like you said, it it's it's wild how a very specific theology has used And exploited and weaponized abortion in ways that are completely graphic. Like I have seen some of these anti abortion propaganda brochures, and I'm like, no doctor does this. What are you talking about? I mean, like a do like a respectful doctor would be horrified if that was the practice they were expected to carry out. Like there were there's I mean, the misinformation that is out there and and and I'm yeah, go ahead. Katie O'Connor: Yeah, I will just jump in and say like not just religious, but a specific kind of religion. I mean, I do think it's important to recognize like laws that that ban abortion are laws that are based in Christian values. There are other religions that do not view abortion the way that Christianity views abortion or the way that the ways that some Christian denominations view abortion. And I I I think that's a really important distinction. You've seen over the past few years actually some cases brought by Jewish individuals and Jewish organizations Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Katie O'Connor: because in in Judaism there are circumstances where abortion is is necessary under the religion. And so you know I think it's important to remember that abortion bans start out as, you know, Christianity being infused into our statutes. That's what it is. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It is absolutely true. And I'm I'm thankful you you brought that up. That one piece that you brought up, and I forgot to mention two points of history was how people do as abortion, like that, like terminating a pregnancy has been something that quote pagan women, indigenous like p women have been doing that forever, but like f through their own lens. And so you bringing up particularly the American Medical Association in the eighteen hundreds. That I mean, that is really at least when I go back and I start looking at things like that, that's when you see, I mean, almost like the first time in history that you have such an emphasis on men dominating women's healthcare. I mean, for thousands of years, when that was a woman's domain. Birthing? Do la why would a man why would they? You know? And then it was as soon as that became standardized and institutionalized in the United States, it was White male Christian, just like you said, and we're gonna dominate and you know, we're not gonna do at home births anymore. We're gonna make women come to the hospitals and we're gonna put them on Katie O'Connor: Right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: their backs and we're gonna do it's gonna be up to us now because we're the learned doctors. And it's just you think about the demonization of of doulas and midwives and yeah, it's just it it it really we've lost so much wisdom from that when you when you it it it breaks my heart. I'm curious. Go ahead. Katie O'Connor: Yeah, and it's I mean it's also it's also it's also so predictable, like people thinking that they can stop abortion from happening. And you know, the reality is abortions have always happened, they always will happen. people will find ways. and you know, I think something that's causing so much consternation in the anti-abortion movement right now is that like abortions have actually increased since Dobbs. and I I don't know what the exact explanation is. Obviously like the the abortion landscape has changed a lot in the past 25 years. We have access to medication abortion now and now I think two-thirds of the abortions that happen in this country are medication abortions. since 2021, access to medication abortion can come from through telehealth and that creates more capacity to provide abortion care because you don't need like the brick and mortar clinic. you can provide care by telehealth virtually. but I think the reality is even if you know the what the anti-abortion movement wants more than anything right now is to stop telehealth. medication abortion and frankly to stop medication abortion altogether. To stop abortion altogether. But even if you stopped telehealth medication abortion or medication abortion, like people find a way. Abortion is just a part of life. And so it it just it's just not something you can rid the world of. And it seems so obvious and yet you have this entire, you know like you said, really well funded movement whose goal is to do something that is frankly just never going to happen. Leigh/@followtheleighder: No. No. And and really if you start pulling back, like there it's such a harsh, but it's just such a pathetic, insecure, masculine thing to do. Because to me it reads like they don't want a woman to control herself and pro like, but what I'm hearing is a man is panicking because a woman is stopping his prod his legacy. And he doesn't have control. He can't do that on his own. He's gonna die. He's mortal. And that child is the way. Like there's something to it. And it just to me, it just sound like there's so much self centeredness in it. Just I mean, beyond I mean, I know that's Katie O'Connor: Yeah. And it's also really Leigh/@followtheleighder: obvious, but it's just like, my God, y'all are so like, Katie O'Connor: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: go ahead. Katie O'Connor: It's also really patronizing. I mean, my I am a lawyer by training, and so a lot of how I think about this is how the Supreme Court has talked about it, but it's the way a lot of anti abortion advocates talk about it too. Like, you know, saying that women need more information before they make the decisions and women regret their decisions and women need to be, you know protected from you know the abortion industry as they would call it like the notion that that a that a woman that a pregnant person can't doesn't have the capacity to look at her options and make the decision and be certain about that decision and never regret it. You know, we know from decades and decades of research that very few people do regret having abortions. And yet that is such a huge talking point from the anti-abortion movement. And again, from like Supreme Court justices, who think they're just protecting women from themselves. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, as we're we're coming up in the midterms, what are some things that what are some policies or just some real concerns that you have that you want us to take into the the ballot box? I know the big beautiful bill has caused some harm. I know that there's Heritage Foundation has been talking about saving the family. What things should we be paying attention to from your lens? Katie O'Connor: You know, what we have seen pretty starkly since Roe versus Wade was overturned was that when people have an opportunity to vote on abortion specifically, they they vote to support access to abortion. And this honestly shouldn't come as a surprise. Like polling has been around forever. Polling has always shown that a majority of Americans support access to abortion. A majority of Americans oppose abortion bans like the ones that we have in 13 states now. So there's no question in my mind that people will continue to support abortion access. I think really the question is like how does that translate to the way that people vote for individuals? Because we are not single issue voters. But you know I I think a couple of things. One is I think politicians there needs to be some realignments among politicians. It can't be that one of the two political parties has a purity test about abortion because that is not representative of the people that they're supposed to be representing. But I think the other thing is I'm more than looking at this. election, I'm really looking to the future. I believe that there will be a majority in both chambers of Congress and a White House that is supportive of abortion rights in the not too distant future. And what I want from that is for that majority to think really expansively about the kinds of reform we need. And so my voting rights and democracy reform history, you know, expertise tell me like we need voting rights reform, we need court reform, we need to bolster our democracy, we know that it's it's sort of hanging on by a thread right now. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Katie O'Connor: And and and I think we need some really bold reforms in order to in order to re-establish some guardrails and to make our democracy what we all want to know it should be and know it can be. And I think abortion reform really needs to be part of that because again, like you cannot have a robust democracy if 50% of the population does not have control over Their bodies, lives, and futures. And so abortion has to be part of democracy reform. But in abortion specifically, I think we need to think expansively because the reality is that like abortion was still really out of reach for a lot of people before before Roe was overturned. And that's for a number of reasons. We had a lot of state laws that restricted access in a lot of ways, made it really hard for clinics to stay open because they were subject to to these really burdensome administrative requirements, laws that made it trickier for people to access because they had to go to the clinic more than once to get this sort of state-mandated counseling, all kinds of laws that were proliferating over the past like 15 years that really put care out of reach for people. But I I think the other thing that I would mention on the federal level is that For 50 years, and actually September 30th is the 50th anniversary of the Hyde Amendment. The Hyde Amendment was passed and included in a spending bill in 1976. And so for the past 50 years, that has basically said like federal funding cannot go towards abortion care. And that has stripped Medicaid recipients in particular out of abortion coverage. And and so, you know, insurance coverage of abortion is often like the single factor that determines whether people get the care they need or not. and it's you know we've been sort of preparing for this thirtieth anniversary of the Hyde Amendment and we you know, we can look back to legislative history and see what it was a representative named Representative Hyde who who introduced this amendment and he was really honest about it. He was like, I want to stop all abortions from happening. But if all I can do is stop poor women from getting abortions, then that's what I'm gonna do. And so I bring this up because it's the 50th anniversary. We have been pushing for this bill. It's called the Each Act. and it would essentially like get rid of the Hyde Amendment and make sure that people aren't punished just for having low incomes or for getting their care through the federal government. And so I think when we think about how to reestablish a right to abortion and ensure access to that right, we have to think about ways to make sure we have to think about getting rid of the high demand and we have to think about ways that the right to abortion can be really meaningful. because, you know, a right that you can't exercise isn't much good. To us at all. So so yes, I'm thinking about the future. I'm thinking about how we will have a majority eventually on the federal level that wants to address the abortion crisis that we're in. And I want to make sure that that majority is thinking not just about reestablishing a right, but also about making sure that people have meaningful access so that they can exercise that right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Thank you so much for for for sharing. I I I didn't know about the each each act coming up. I know that certainly my following will be interested in in paying attention to that. Katie, can you tell listeners where they can go to donate, volunteer or otherwise platform the work of NWLC? Katie O'Connor: Yes, please visit nwlc.org. we also I'm not on social media, but we obviously have Instagram presents and blue sky presents. we have a really great social media team that we have some really funny and good stuff up there. We also have some funny and good merch on our website. we we are an organization of about A hundred and thirty people and we all contribute in our own ways to our blog and we have a lot of resources on the website. and we would love to see you all on our social media channels and on our website and generally in support of all the things that the Law Center does. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Katie, can you leave us with any last thoughts before we wrap up? Katie O'Connor: That's good question, and I should have an answer. Leigh/@followtheleighder: That's all. I did put you on Katie O'Connor: I think Leigh/@followtheleighder: the spot. Katie O'Connor: that's okay. I think what's most important to me is like trust, trust that people do support access to abortion because they do. know that you're not a radical if you support access to abortion. Know that you're not even in a minority, know that you're in a really strong majority. This is something that shouldn't be controversial at all. frankly, given the level of support that is commanding and consistent across decades. and so we have to translate that into meaningful action to restore a right to abortion and access to exercise that right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Absolutely. That was a great that was a great last thought. I mean, I I put you on the spot. That was perfect. I thought you were gonna just say like, have hope, guys, but it was like very like concrete and like very inspiring. Folks, if you have any questions that have come while listening to this, please drop them in the comments. I would love to have Katie or someone back from the NWLC. And if you have these comments, that's exactly what I'd like to do is carry those con questions over to the next conversation. Don't forget to like, follow, subscribe. You know the drill. This has been another episode of Follow the Leighder... I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and until next time, see ya.