Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1020 - James Anderson: How to Create Skilful Learners

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#1020 - James Anderson: How to Create Skilful Learners · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers. Now.
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  Speaker 2: Hello, this stocor Justin Coilson, and welcome to the Happy
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  Speaker 2: Families Podcast. Today we're picking up on a conversation that
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  Speaker 2: we had a few weeks ago, maybe five or six
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  Speaker 2: weeks ago now with James Anderson. If you missed it,
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  Speaker 2: we will link to it in the show notes. It
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  Speaker 2: was I think a really important conversation for any parent
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  Speaker 2: of children, who kids who are struggling, kids who aren't
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  Speaker 2: quite sure about their learning, or kids who avoid doing
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  Speaker 2: things that are hard because they don't want to do
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  Speaker 2: hard things. And it's not necessarily because they're lacking motivation.
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  Speaker 2: It may be more to do with mindset. James Anderson
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  Speaker 2: works with schools, James works with parents. He's a speaker,
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  Speaker 2: an author, and educator, and he knows about kids and learning.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm really excited to have him back on the podcast. James,
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  Speaker 2: thanks for joining me again to talk about kids and
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  Speaker 2: their learning.
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  Speaker 1: Absolute pleasure to be here again.
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  Speaker 2: Justin, So, I want to have a conversation today about
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  Speaker 2: this idea that you've developed called learnership. We hear all
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  Speaker 2: the time about things like leadership. But learnership is this
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  Speaker 2: concept that you've developed to help kids be skillful learners.
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  Speaker 2: Help us to understand this and white matters.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, learnership is one of these things we don't
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  Speaker 1: intuitively understand that I'll put it. Let me put it
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  Speaker 1: this way. A mentor of mind described thinking and learning
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  Speaker 1: to me this way. That we all learn to move
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  Speaker 1: like as a young child. We crawl when we're ready,
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  Speaker 1: we stand up and walk when we're ready, and we
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  Speaker 1: can all move naturally, and we all learn naturally as well.
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  Speaker 1: You know, we come along, we learn how to feed ourselves,
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  Speaker 1: we learn how to talk and do all the rest
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  Speaker 1: of it. But some of us, as we grow, learn
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  Speaker 1: to become very graceful, very powerful, very coordinated movers, and
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  Speaker 1: while some of the rest of us go through life
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  Speaker 1: stumbling through the world and bumping into door frames with
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  Speaker 1: two left feet. And the same is true of learning.
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  Speaker 1: That while we can all naturally learn, some of us
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  Speaker 1: learn very skillfully, very effectively. We train ourselves to be
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  Speaker 1: more effective in the skill of learning. And it's that
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  Speaker 1: idea to think about learning not just as something we do,
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  Speaker 1: but rather as something we do well to get better
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  Speaker 1: at the process of getting better that this idea of
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  Speaker 1: learnership is all about.
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  Speaker 2: So let's imagine that there's a parent who's listened to
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  Speaker 2: this podcast who has a child who hates learning, who says,
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  Speaker 2: I don't want to learn. Now, I don't believe that
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  Speaker 2: because they might not want to learn at school, but
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  Speaker 2: they're pretty excited about learning on the soccer pitch, or
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  Speaker 2: they're really excited about learning about Pokemon, or they're really
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  Speaker 2: excited about learning about something. It's just the school stuff
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  Speaker 2: that they're not drawn to. How do we help that
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  Speaker 2: parent to engage a child in learning, especially when the
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  Speaker 2: child doesn't seem to have any interest in the learning
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  Speaker 2: that we as a society have deemed essential for that
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  Speaker 2: child to learn.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that question is probably related back to our
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  Speaker 1: last podcast where we talked about mindset. So the kid
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  Speaker 1: with a fixed mindset thinks learning is about discovering their abilities,
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  Speaker 1: whereas the kid with a growth mindset understands that learning
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  Speaker 1: is about creating their abilities. And once you understand that
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  Speaker 1: learning is about creating changing yourself, not about finding out
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  Speaker 1: if you're good at maths, but becoming good at maths,
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  Speaker 1: then the next sensible question to ask is, well, how
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  Speaker 1: do I get good at becoming what I want to become.
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  Speaker 1: And so the first thing we can do as parents
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  Speaker 1: is start having that conversation, not just about what you're
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  Speaker 1: learning at school. Like when children come home from school,
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  Speaker 1: we say what did you learn today?
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  Speaker 2: Nothing? I learned nothing at all.
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  Speaker 1: That's a whole other conversation. But rather than having that conversation,
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  Speaker 1: ask the question, how did you learn today? What were
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  Speaker 1: you doing today as you were trying to learn? For example,
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  Speaker 1: when I talk about learnership, one of the characteristics I
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  Speaker 1: talk about is our relationship to challenge, and this is
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  Speaker 1: connected to our mindset. Staff that some kids, when they
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  Speaker 1: are confronted with challenges, will avoid them altogether. And that's
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  Speaker 1: often a mindset issue. They think the challenge is going
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  Speaker 1: to measure and judge them. Some students will accept a
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  Speaker 1: challenge up to the point that they know they can succeed.
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  Speaker 1: They'll do their best. This is what I call a
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  Speaker 1: performance learner. These are the children you've probably come across
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  Speaker 1: that like to go to dah, look what I can do,
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  Speaker 1: Look what I can do. But as soon as you
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  Speaker 1: say try this slightly hard thing, they'll go, no, I
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  Speaker 1: can't do the thing they can do?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: They avoid what they can't do and they approach what
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  Speaker 2: they can do.
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  Speaker 1: That's right, and there's lots of research around how kids
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  Speaker 1: know where that is. Some students will be compliant, you know,
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  Speaker 1: they'll attempt to challenge that the teacher gives them and
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  Speaker 1: just sort of walk through being led through the learning
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  Speaker 1: process by the teacher. Some students, as you get a
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  Speaker 1: better relationship with challenge, will start to target their own challenge,
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  Speaker 1: set their own goals, so I want to get here.
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  Speaker 1: Rather than the teachers saying this is where we're going,
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  Speaker 1: the student will say, this is where I want to go.
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  Speaker 1: But really, really skillful learners start embracing challenges. They embrace
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  Speaker 1: challenges in the spirit of JFK when he's talking about
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  Speaker 1: the moon landings and he said, we do these things
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  Speaker 1: not because they are easy, but because they are hard.
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  Speaker 1: That they know that every time they challenge themselves, they
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  Speaker 1: change themselves, and that these learners that I call non learners,
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  Speaker 1: the ones that are not accepting challenges at all. They
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  Speaker 1: go through a class or the day day starts, day finishes,
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  Speaker 1: they've produced nothing, and they're the same the students that
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  Speaker 1: follow the teacher's instruction or just do their best. The
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  Speaker 1: day starts, they produce stuff, but they stay the same
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  Speaker 1: at the end of the day. The students that stretch
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  Speaker 1: them challenge themselves, that embrace challenges. They start the day
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  Speaker 1: they produce things, but they produce them in a way
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  Speaker 1: that who they are. They grow as a result, and
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  Speaker 1: they're the ones that when we talk about lifelong learners,
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  Speaker 1: they're the ones that are really on that journey of
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  Speaker 1: continuously growing because they're out there doing things because they
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  Speaker 1: are hard.
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  Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the type
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  Speaker 2: or parent who just wants answers now. My guest today
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  Speaker 2: on the pod is James Anderson. James works in schools
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  Speaker 2: and with parents around issues related to helping our children
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  Speaker 2: to become skillful learners, to move into what we would
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  Speaker 2: typically call today a growth mindset. I may be going
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  Speaker 2: off track just a little bit with this, James, but
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  Speaker 2: as I hear you talk about this student, this child
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  Speaker 2: who embraces challenge and who grows as a result, versus
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  Speaker 2: kids who are perhaps less excited, let's enthusiastic about what
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  Speaker 2: challenges mean. There's part of me that is chafing a
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  Speaker 2: little bit because of the way our school system demands
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  Speaker 2: that all children diticipate in the same challenges. All children
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  Speaker 2: have to do the same classes, they have to follow
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  Speaker 2: the same curriculum. I love the concept that we want
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  Speaker 2: our kids to embrace challenges, but why do they all
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  Speaker 2: have to embrace the same challenges. Now that might be
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  Speaker 2: beyond the scope of our conversation, but I wonder if
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  Speaker 2: you have anything to say about individuality and helping kids
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  Speaker 2: find and follow their own strengths and what that can
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  Speaker 2: do to direct them in the path of that lifelong learnership,
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  Speaker 2: that agility around learning, that growth that comes from embracing challenge.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, great question. I'll just challenge you a little bit
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  Speaker 1: on the idea of find and follow their strengths. That
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  Speaker 1: that concept when we talk about finding and following your strengths,
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  Speaker 1: is one of discovering your abilities. It's actually quite a
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  Speaker 1: fixed mindset concept. And what I would suggest to you
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  Speaker 1: is that the way we want to talk to our
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  Speaker 1: children is to have them choose what they want to
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  Speaker 1: become rather than discover what they have, and therefore can
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  Speaker 1: only be this choose what things you want to become.
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  Speaker 1: To do that, you've got to get this relationship with challenge.
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  Speaker 1: And I think this is where the essence of your
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  Speaker 1: question comes in because you're right the system. We could
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  Speaker 1: change the system and allow students to negotiate curriculum and
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  Speaker 1: all sorts of things, and we would probably have to
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  Speaker 1: have a much longer podcast to talk about.
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  Speaker 2: This is not the two hour podcast for the time
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  Speaker 2: a free parent, the parent who's got lots of time.
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  Speaker 2: It doesn't need any answers in a hurry.
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  Speaker 1: The two hour summary of how we fix the education system.
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  Speaker 1: But I think we can talk about something here that
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  Speaker 1: will be of benefit to answering your question, answer to
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  Speaker 1: your listeners as well. One of the things that learner
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  Speaker 1: who's out there embracing challenges choosing to become who they
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  Speaker 1: want or need to be, understands is what it feels
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  Speaker 1: like to be in their learning zone. You mentioned at
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  Speaker 1: the start of the podcast about the child who runs
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  Speaker 1: away from challenge, that doesn't want to put the effort
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  Speaker 1: in that sort of thing. And part of the reason
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  Speaker 1: is that they expect things to be easy or hard,
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  Speaker 1: and if it's hard, it's going to be hard today,
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  Speaker 1: it's going to be hard tomorrow, the next day, the
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  Speaker 1: next day, the next day, And who wants to do that?
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  Speaker 1: So what they do is they go, all right, I'll
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  Speaker 1: do fine, find the things that are easy for me.
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  Speaker 1: And so to help our children break through that, we
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  Speaker 1: need them to understand what it feels like to be
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  Speaker 1: in their learning zone. Let me explain that concept. You've
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  Speaker 1: heard about the comfort zone.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's where there is no growth. But gee,
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  Speaker 2: it's a nice place to be from time to time.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, But there's a big misunderstanding about our comfort zone.
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  Speaker 1: We hear parents and educators people talk about, you know,
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  Speaker 1: you've got to get outside your comfort zone, do something new,
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  Speaker 1: do something different. But your comfort zone is full of
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  Speaker 1: things that you've mastered a long time ago. But it's
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  Speaker 1: also full of things that are what I call easy
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  Speaker 1: things you haven't done yet. Right, the world is full
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  Speaker 1: of easy things you haven't done yet. Now, let me
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  Speaker 1: put you on the spot. Do you know you're fifteen
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  Speaker 1: times tables.
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  Speaker 2: Justin I've never practiced them before, but I reckon I
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  Speaker 2: could nail it if I had to. We've got fifteen thirty,
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  Speaker 2: forty five, sixty seventy five, ninety, one hundred and five,
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  Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty, one hundred and thirty five, one
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  Speaker 2: hundred and fifty. There we go.
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  Speaker 1: Someone showing off. There you go.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know how I did that. I've never practiced
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  Speaker 2: that before.
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  Speaker 1: But it was you never had the time to learn it. Normally,
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  Speaker 1: I say to people, if I gave you a day,
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  Speaker 1: would you be able to learn them? And they go, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I could do that in a day. You've done it
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  Speaker 1: in ten seconds, all right. But the point is you
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  Speaker 1: as an adult, we've got the ability to go away
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  Speaker 1: and do it. Would only take time. Sure we can
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  Speaker 1: know with confidence at the end of that amount of
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  Speaker 1: time we would do it with one hundred percent accuracies,
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  Speaker 1: well within my current abilities. The point here is that
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  Speaker 1: your comfort zone is full of those things that are easy,
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  Speaker 1: things you haven't done yet. And a lot of people
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  Speaker 1: think that I'll do something new, and some things that
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  Speaker 1: I do and new are going to be easy, and
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  Speaker 1: that's getting outside your comfort zone. It's not. Your next
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  Speaker 1: sort of level up is doing your best, doing your performance,
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  Speaker 1: and that's where you draw on all your resources. You
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  Speaker 1: do your current best, and we love our best because
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  Speaker 1: again we can be confident, and that's ability to produce
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  Speaker 1: that standard. But you don't get better by doing your best.
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  Speaker 1: You get better by stretching and challenging yourself to go
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  Speaker 1: just beyond your current best. It's what psychologists sometimes called
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  Speaker 1: the zone of proximal development.
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  Speaker 2: That's right. It's lev Vygotsky's idea of the zone of
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  Speaker 2: just a bit more than what you're comfortable with right now.
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  Speaker 1: That's right. And I've never seen a child proximately develop,
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  Speaker 1: so I call it a learning zone. But it's the
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  Speaker 1: same thing. And the point there is that as you
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  Speaker 1: go beyond your current best, you feel uncomfortable, you feel uncertain.
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  Speaker 1: And for that child who thinks that learning is about
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  Speaker 1: discovering their abilities, they're going, well, that's the limit of
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  Speaker 1: my abilities. I can't go there, and they rush straight
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  Speaker 1: back to the comfort, the certainty of their comfort and
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  Speaker 1: performance says. And what happens then is that you learn
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  Speaker 1: to fear going into your learning zone. The relationship that
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  Speaker 1: we're talking about here is to get to understand, to
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  Speaker 1: get to know your learning zone. And so one of
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  Speaker 1: the things we talk about is identifying those times when
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  Speaker 1: it's okay to be in your comfort and performance zone.
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  Speaker 1: So sometimes we want to do breadth work, we need
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  Speaker 1: to perform and do the things well, but we need
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  Speaker 1: to know other times when actually, today we're going into
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  Speaker 1: that learning zone and to expect that it's going to
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  Speaker 1: feel like struggle, it's going to feel uncertain, it's going
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  Speaker 1: to feel i'd say seven out of ten uncomfortable, not
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  Speaker 1: ten out of ten, just like unsure and uncertain, and
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  Speaker 1: that we're going to have to put that effort in there,
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  Speaker 1: because the effort is the cost of growth. You see,
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  Speaker 1: we talked about the kids who go, well it's hard,
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  Speaker 1: I'll stop. They think, if this next step is hard,
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  Speaker 1: the next step is going to be harder. The next
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  Speaker 1: step is going to be harder again the step after there,
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  Speaker 1: and of course they give up. Who wants to go
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  Speaker 1: down that path? But someone with a growth mindset recognizes
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  Speaker 1: that it's only hard until you make it easy. You
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  Speaker 1: invest the effort, and the thing that used to be
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  Speaker 1: hard becomes easy.
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  Speaker 2: Ralph Wade Edison said that which we persist in doing
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  Speaker 2: becomes easier for us to do, not that the nature
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  Speaker 2: of the thing itself has changed, but that our power
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  Speaker 2: to do has increased.
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  Speaker 1: That's right. And the people think that hardness difficulty is
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  Speaker 1: a property of the problem, it's not a property of
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  Speaker 1: the problem at all. It's a property of the or
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  Speaker 1: the relationship between our current abilities and the problem, and
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  Speaker 1: if we raise our current abilities, the thing that used
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  Speaker 1: to be hard becomes easy. And so what I'm wanting
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  Speaker 1: parents to do and teachers to do is to talk
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  Speaker 1: about what it feels like to be in your learning
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  Speaker 1: zone and to help students understand or children understand that
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  Speaker 1: being in your learning zone that struggle, feel that uncertainty,
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  Speaker 1: that this comfort we feel is a temporary feeling, not
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  Speaker 1: a permanent one. The price of growth is struggle, an effort,
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  Speaker 1: and once we pay the price, once we go through
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  Speaker 1: the right type of effort, we grow and the things
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  Speaker 1: that used to be hard become easy.
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  Speaker 2: James, I love this conversation. I'm sure that parents are
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  Speaker 2: sitting here going yes, yes, I just need my children
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  Speaker 2: to understand it, because this is a podcast for a
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  Speaker 2: type for parents who just want answers. Are there any
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  Speaker 2: specific ways that parents can talk to their kids in
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  Speaker 2: like a minute or less, Things that they can say
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  Speaker 2: to their kids when they're saying I can't it's too hard,
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  Speaker 2: don't want to know? What can parents do and say
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  Speaker 2: to help them to get into that zone of proximal development,
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  Speaker 2: to get into that learning zone, to become agile learners.
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  Speaker 2: Kids who love the challenge because they know it's going
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  Speaker 2: to stretch them, grow them, and then make something that
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  Speaker 2: was hard easy.
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  Speaker 1: All right, So two things I think i'd suggest. One
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  Speaker 1: is what we've just been talking about, to recognize that
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  Speaker 1: you need to get comfortable with that discomfort, that that
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  Speaker 1: struggle is a part of the process of growth, and
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  Speaker 1: that that struggle is a temporary thing in the moment.
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  Speaker 1: Particularly if those students are on the low growth end
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  Speaker 1: of the continuum, they're probably not going to buy that
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  Speaker 1: repeat the message, though it helps. The second thing is
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  Speaker 1: to help them recognize where that's occurred in the past,
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  Speaker 1: to recognize their own backstory, to say, think back to
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  Speaker 1: the last hard thing you did, how easy is that now?
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  Speaker 1: And to recognize that struggle has paid off in the past,
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  Speaker 1: it'll pay off again in the future.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it. Can I throw in a third
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  Speaker 2: one that just popped into my head as you were
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  Speaker 2: saying that. I think it's useful for us as parents
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  Speaker 2: world to highlight I'm no good at this, but guess
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  Speaker 2: what I've been working on it, and look what I
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  Speaker 2: can do when they see you struggling with stuff. And
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  Speaker 2: I love that quote. I love what you said. Effort
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  Speaker 2: is the price of growth brilliant when they see us
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  Speaker 2: putting in the effort so that we can grow. Surely
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  Speaker 2: that example's got to be worth something.
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  Speaker 1: We could have another whole podcast on the idea of effort.
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  Speaker 1: Perhaps save that for another day.
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  Speaker 2: Hey yeah, James, If people want more info from you,
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  Speaker 2: whether they're parents or maybe their school leaders, who would
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  Speaker 2: love to bring you on board so that you can
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  Speaker 2: have a chat with them and their educators or parents
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  Speaker 2: who want your resources? Where do they go? What do
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  Speaker 2: they do?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah? Just jump onto my website James Anderson dot com
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  Speaker 1: dot au slash Parenting for the parents, and you can
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  Speaker 1: jump onto my blog there. I've got a whole lot
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  Speaker 1: of downloadable resources and I run regular workshops of parents
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  Speaker 1: as well to help them unlimit their child, develop growth mindsets,
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  Speaker 1: and develop their learnership in the school.
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  Speaker 2: Useful and valuable conversation, James Anderson, What a treat to
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  Speaker 2: have that conversation. Thanks so much for joining us. The
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. And if you would
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: like more resources to make your family happier, why not
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: check out a Happy Families membership, all the details at
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: Happy Families dot com, dot aut