Latest / Heroes Behind the Badge / Can You Spot a Serial Killer? BTK, Son of Sam, and What the FBI Found - Part 2

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Can You Spot a Serial Killer? BTK, Son of Sam, and What the FBI Found - Part 2 · Heroes Behind the Badge

0:09
In part one, documentary filmmaker and Mindhunter author Mark
0:13
Olshaker traced how he walked into Quantico and began a 30 year
0:17
partnership with FBI pioneer John Douglas.
0:20
Now the serial killers who hid in plain sight, whether these
0:24
monsters can be predicted and the case,
0:26
Mark says was never going to end well.
0:33
The other interesting thing about Dennis Rader, the BTK killer, is
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that contrary to what I think John Douglas and other profilers
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believed about serial predators, most
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of them would be single, would be loners.
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In his case, he was married with a family and yet compartmentalized
0:52
somehow that part of his life and the
0:55
Lutheran church presidency part of his life.
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And then he had this serial killer part of his life.
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I mean, how do you explain that?
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And that's just amazing.
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Well, first of all, a lot of them, a lot of them are loners.
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You know, a lot of them do follow the sort of profile of the 25 to
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28 year old nocturnal single male, you know,
1:21
loner without an important job and all that.
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But a lot of them don't.
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Dennis Rader, as you say, he was president of his church.
1:31
He was a Boy Scout leader.
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He had a wife and two children.
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He had a job with the county.
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And in those cases, you're looking right through these people.
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In fact, before that, before that, he had a job working for a
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security company that installed security systems houses.
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What could be better for somebody who wants to break into a house
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than to work for a security company?
2:00
But the important point, Craig, is that regardless of family,
2:07
regardless of job, regardless of anything else, what Dennis Rader
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called his projects, what these people call their crimes is the
2:15
most important thing in their life.
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They're thinking about it all the time.
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They're often on the hunt nightly.
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And when they can't be on the hunt, they're scoping out potential
2:26
places where they could find victims.
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They're thinking about it.
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I mean, the whole idea of a serial killer, as Bob Ressler defined
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it to begin with, is somebody who commits a violent crime, then
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they have sort of a cooling off period, and
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then they want to do it again and again and again.
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So yes, you're looking right through some of these people because
2:47
they do have a complete other life.
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But what they what they want to do most, what's most important to
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them, what's most obsessional to them are these crimes.
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And the big mystery about Dennis Rader, or what the BTK before we
3:04
knew who he was, was there'd be long
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periods where he wouldn't commit a crime.
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And they thought, well, he's either been killed, he's in prison for
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something else, and he's never admitted it,
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he's gone to another jurisdiction or whatever.
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It turns out in at least one of these two interregnums, probably
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both, his wife found him in an auto erotic asphyxiation situation,
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dressed in the clothing of some of his victims.
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And she was totally freaked out.
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And she didn't associate him with the BTK strangler.
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But what she said, she was a, you know, a
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simple, very devout church going young woman.
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And she said, if I ever catch you doing this again,
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I'm leaving you.
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And that was enough to scare him off as long
4:00
as he could, as long as he could be scared off.
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But again, with BTK, it was not only doing the things that he did,
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but he also wanted the recognition, which is why he kept
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communicating with the police, with the media.
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And as you said, Craig, that was ultimately his undoing.
4:20
Right.
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I remember what John Douglas, when he profiled that case, he
4:25
thought that if he was married or had a girlfriend, she would be
4:29
very passive and probably not go to the authorities or not confront
4:37
her husband or even suspect him, perhaps.
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And I think that turned out to be the case, that she actually found
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him on two occasions in that, you know, situation where he was
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dressed in his victims underwear, bra, panties, unbelievable stuff.
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Hey, one of the things that John
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said that he would be based on the drawings that he that he drew of
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the crime scene, John thought that he would probably be a police
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officer, a retired police officer,
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somebody in some position of authority.
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And what he was is he was an enforcement officer for the county.
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I mean, he was the kind of guy who had a reputation for going
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around and saying, Your grass is too long or your dog is running.
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Code officer.
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Yes.
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So as he couldn't.
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Yeah.
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So I mean, so he wasn't up to being a cop, but
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he certainly got off on this petty authority.
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Power trip.
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That's that's another commonality, seemingly with these serial
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predators is they like to hang out with cops.
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I know in Kemper's case, going back to the serial killer, Ed
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Kemper, who tried to turn himself in after
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he kills his mother and all these other women.
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They didn't believe him at first in part
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because he was friendly with a lot of the cops.
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He would hang out at cop bars and restaurants.
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They got to know him.
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They got to like him.
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And there's just no way they could
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believe this guy could have been the killer.
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The same thing with Arthur Shawcross in Rochester, New York, who who
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raped and murdered prostitutes and street women who he found.
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He hung out at cop bars and he bought them donuts, you know, the
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old cliche coffee and things like that.
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And it was first of all, because he liked the milieu and second of
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all, because he wanted to be able to keep
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up on what the investigations were showing.
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He wanted to.
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I could I could see that.
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I could see that makes sense.
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I mean, he's trying to stay one step ahead of the of the game.
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But I don't know, you know, like for me and so many of my cop
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buddies, you know, you always have this
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feeling about people in this perception,
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you know, and it's and there's always
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something that triggers you about things.
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I mean, clearly some of these people, despite the fact that their
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psychopaths are maniacal, they're pretty
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damn smart because they got away with this.
7:04
Yeah.
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Well, you know, you would probably
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know more about this than me, Bill.
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But I would maintain that anybody who rapes or murders an innocent
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person in cold blood has some mental illness.
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They are not there.
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They are.
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They are mentally ill.
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But that does not mean that they are incapable of knowing the
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difference between right and wrong.
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Right.
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This goes back to the McNaughton case when Daniel McNaughton in
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England tried to assassinate Sir Robert Peel, the the prime
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minister who was responsible for
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the first London Police Department.
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And they're modern policing.
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Yeah.
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And he was he was found not guilty by reason of insanity.
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And the test, which, you know, for all the different incarnations
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we've had since then is still basically the same, which is, do you
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understand the difference between right and wrong?
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And are you able to conform your your behavior to that of society?
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I mean, you all know very well the old cliche, if you will, the old
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saying about the policeman at the elbow, which is if you are going
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to commit a crime and you see a uniformed policeman standing there
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and you still commit the crime, then you
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probably really are pretty far gone mentally.
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If you don't commit the crime at that point, then you get it.
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You understand.
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So I hope for you.
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So I mean, almost almost all of the predators,
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that's who we mainly deal with predatory type crimes.
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I mean, not the kind who you probably saw every day.
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There are the kind of felony
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murders and injuries and things like that.
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But when you have a predatory crime and and you, you know, you do
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know what you're doing in most cases.
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The one case that we found where somebody
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probably didn't was a guy named Richard Trenton Chase.
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And he killed young women, which is pretty bad in itself.
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But he did it specifically to be
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able to drink their blood to stay alive.
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And now I haven't done it personally, but I have it on good
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authority that anybody who can drink blood without totally
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retching, it's probably a very unusual person.
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It's not a pleasant experience.
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And so it's not on the menu today.
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Even after he was caught and convicted and put in prison, he
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couldn't get the young girls anymore.
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But he would, any animal that would come into his cage, mainly
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birds, he would snap their neck and drink their blood.
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Wow.
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Eventually committed suicide.
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Isn't that a vampire?
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Well, exactly.
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Yeah.
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So the point is somebody like Richard Trenton Chase.
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So I would say, yeah, he was by definition insane.
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Yeah, for sure.
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So insanity is a legal concept.
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It's not a, it's not a medical concept.
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But a question that was just brought up kind of in this discussion
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that that occurred to me, is it possible to spot these people?
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I mean, again, that is there some predictive way to say, yeah, it's
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that one or no, it's not this one.
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It's this one based on all this stuff that
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you guys have that you and John came up with.
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Sometimes.
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How can you do it?
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Sometimes.
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John has always, you know, he's often asked, well, if you see a, if
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you see a young boy in school and he's displaying, let's say the
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homicidal triad, which is cruelty to other younger kids or animals
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bedwetting at an inappropriate
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age, starting fires out of curiosity.
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Could you predict whether this kid
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absent some serious intervention, right?
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Could could become, you know, a criminal or a dangerous adult.
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And John's and John's answer is yes.
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And I often can, but so can any good elementary school teacher.
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Ah, that's an interesting point.
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You know, David Berkowitz, I think the son of Sam is a great
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example of what you just alluded to.
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Before he started killing people, as I understand it, he actually
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started approximately 1000 fires and would stand a ways away.
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He would masturbate watching the fire and then he would masturbate
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again when he saw the fire fighters show up out the fire.
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And then he recorded these fires in a diary, which apparently is
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another commonality among serial killers as
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they create these diaries and keep records.
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Yeah, some diaries, some take souvenirs, whether it's underwear or
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something with the image on it like a driver's license.
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But if you look at the evolution of the son of Sam, David
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Berkowitz, you see these fire start fire
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starting and being getting off sexually as a result.
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It's the power.
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It's the getting other people to do things.
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Then when he evolves into the 44 caliber killer, going to these
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lovers lanes and shooting people who
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he, again, he didn't feel adequate to
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be with, with this powerful charter
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arms, 44 caliber bulldog revolver.
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And again,
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it's not up close and personal.
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It's that it's some remove.
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So he is not physically attacking these people.
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He's shooting them from a distance
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and getting off on it the same way.
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So it's in a way an evolution of the
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fire starting because it's still power.
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And he really got off, as you all know, on being able to terrorize
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the entire city area in the mid 70s.
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Yeah.
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And I think in a way, the public imagination has kind of evolved
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from serial killers into mass murderers.
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And of course, they're, they're
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very different kinds of personalities.
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I mean, they still have this sense of inadequacy, this sense of,
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you know, being outside of, of the norm.
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But I think the difference is serial killers expect to get away
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with it and they keep improving their MO so that they can.
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And by definition, a serial killer is a successful killer.
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If he's a serial killer, he's killed more than once.
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It means he's gotten away with it.
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Whereas from my experience and, and, and our research, these mass
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murderers, whether it's in school shootings, whether it's, you
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know, the one in Las Vegas, whether it's the one in, you know, the
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tree of life synagogue, wherever these people are on an end game in
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most cases, they want to go out in a blaze of glory, either they're
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going to commit suicide at the end of their, at the end of their
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murder spree, or it's going to be suicide by cop.
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But one way or another, they don't expect to get away with it.
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This is so this is kind of a different, different.
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It's completely different circumstance because
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someone just wants the notoriety of it as well.
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Right.
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And in a lot of cases,
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you know, the DNA doesn't help us because this is a one off.
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And so by the time we know who it is, the damage is already done.
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And, and Bill, I would be interested in your opinion, but I would
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think the more we have of these, the
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more they kind of feed on themselves.
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And so often when we finally investigate a school shooter, we find
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that he's got pictures of previous school
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shooters, you know, up in his room and things like that.
15:39
Yeah.
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And that's just the thing.
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I mean, we always talk, we had a guest on recently that's that's
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doing some real cutting edge work with new technology.
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And it's trying to identify these people through social media
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circles and associations, you know, to prevent this and to catch
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them prior, which is, which is tough.
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Yeah, it's very tough.
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And, you know, so often, even if you have the warning signs and you
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call the parents into the school has happened several times, the
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parents will say, well, they weren't serious, you're just
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stigmatizing my child, I'm going to get a lawyer,
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I'm going to, I'm going to sue the school board.
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And so it's a very, very tough situation.
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And, you know, I know, you know, when I was in, in school, a long
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time ago, I mean, we didn't even think about this kind of thing.
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Oh, now, I want to share, I want to share a
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story because this reminds me of something good.
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And it also involves pretty much everybody
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here, because we all know Drew, that works with us.
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So this is my experience, my one and only experience during my
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whole career with a serial killer.
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And Drew happened to be with me and was riding with me that day.
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I think you guys may know this story.
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Anyway, we're watching this, this drug house, and car pulls up.
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And my recon eyeball guy is up in a tree.
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And he calls out the car.
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And we run the license plate, and the license plate comes back,
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it's a stolen vehicle out of Daytona
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Beach, Florida, wanted in a double homicide.
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So now, now we're not just trying to catch the dopers.
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Now we've got a murderer.
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So we wait for him to buy his dope,
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gets into his vehicle, exits the location.
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We've got about 1015 cars and we're
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going to box him into traffic, we box him in.
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He doesn't have a chance to really get away.
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He tries to run tries to fight us.
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My sergeant and I grab him and, you know, we had to tune him up a
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little bit because he was resisting.
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And so he wasn't too happy with me.
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So anyway, we're getting him back to the
17:55
station, we put him into the interrogation room.
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More information comes in.
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Now he's wanted for five or six other homicides out of Kentucky.
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And the Kentucky State Police are now calling saying, you got to do
18:09
whatever you can do to get this guy to give you a confession before
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you take him to jail, because it's going to take us, you know, a
18:17
day or two to fly down from Kentucky to interview this guy.
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So nonetheless, we get him to the station and
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he's in the room and I start talking to him.
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And this goes to your point
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earlier, Craig, about how they may look.
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This guy's about, you know, this case was 25 years ago, probably
18:40
anyway, blonde hair, blue eyed, 25 year old,
18:44
good looking kid, looked like a surfer preppy boy.
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Like you'd never you would never think this right, that he's killed
18:52
seven or eight or how many people it ultimately was.
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So he's looking at me and I'm trying to establish a rapport.
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And he's not happy.
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He's not happy with me or my sergeant
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because, you know, we had to tune him up a bit.
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And he, you know, he'd sit there and he calmly talked to me and
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then he looked at me and he go, you know,
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why don't you just take those handcuffs off?
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I just want to fucking kill you, you
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know, and it was like so, so dead band.
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And I look at him and go, come on, man, you don't want to kill me.
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I'm a decent guy.
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Look at you.
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You can't be that bad.
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You know, I'm trying to shook and jive with
19:28
this guy to try to get a rapport and to get in.
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So he wouldn't talk to to me.
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He wouldn't talk to Al, the sergeant,
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so now he wanted to coke in some chips.
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So we get him some coke and chips.
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This is so like TV show stuff like, oh, we're going to get him a
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cigarette, you know, like, so he wants some coke and chips.
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We step outside.
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Drew's talking to him now.
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So Drew's talking to him and all of a sudden Drew gets this rapport
19:54
because they're about this, you know, closer in age.
19:57
All of a sudden the guy starts talking
19:59
to him and bragging about killing people.
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And I was like, what?
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So now he's telling Drew this stuff.
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And so ultimately the guy writes a written confession for us.
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And it was all because of Drew.
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So we called Drew, Detective Drewby.
20:17
He took detective Drewby was
20:19
essential in getting this guy to cop to us.
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And so the funniest part of this whole story now is we're going to
20:26
take he's got to be transported
20:28
down to the Dade County jail in Miami.
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And so I tell Al the sergeant, I
20:33
said, why don't you take Drew with you?
20:35
Because it might be interesting
20:36
for him to go down and see the jail.
20:38
And you know, he's been part of all this.
20:39
It's interesting.
20:40
And I got a lot of stuff to do.
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I got to make these calls to Kentucky.
20:43
La di da di da.
20:44
So the kid says, my last request is could you
20:48
guys please, please, please just take me to Wendy's.
20:52
I want to get a frosty.
20:54
It'll be the last chance I ever have in my life to have a frosty.
20:58
So they took a marked car.
20:59
So they've got the cage divider there to put him in the back.
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So they pull up to the end.
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This is you can't make this shit up.
21:06
They pull up to the drive through.
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They order they pull up to the girl at the window.
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She's curious because she sees that
21:14
there's a prisoner in the backseat of the car.
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So she's she's peering out looking into the car.
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And you know, so Al puts the window
21:21
down so the guy can say something to her.
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And she and and she says, Oh, what happened here?
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And Al, the sergeant looks at her and goes, you know, you should
21:31
talk to him because he's got a killer personality.
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It was just, I mean, Drew told me he goes, he goes, I was
21:40
embarrassed for the guy in the back because I was crying.
21:43
I was laughing so hard.
21:44
And the guy just lost it.
21:45
So the murder suspect, the serial
21:47
killer, he's dying laughing in the back.
21:50
And it's just a very bizarre story.
21:52
Now, I will say, Billy, you have a lot of
21:56
stories that may be about the most bizarre I've heard.
21:58
I don't think I've heard that.
22:00
Come on.
22:01
Detective.
22:01
I want to say something else about that,
22:03
though, which I think Bill can confirm for me.
22:06
There is this myth in serial killer fiction.
22:12
And of course, there's a lot of it now.
22:14
When you have a character like John Douglas, or the one in Silence
22:17
of the Lambs, that he has this rare gift, or is it actually a curse
22:24
that he can put himself in the mind and think like the criminal?
22:29
And I would say,
22:31
this is kind of basic stuff.
22:33
If any police officer or police detective can't think like a
22:37
criminal, he's in the wrong
22:38
position where she's a little like this.
22:41
This is not unusual.
22:44
This is basic to be able to do the job, I think.
22:49
Mark, two final questions from me.
22:52
I think we're nearing the end of the interview for time reasons.
22:56
But number one, I wanted to close the loop.
22:58
You said something earlier.
22:59
You said that most serial killers, virtually all serial killers are
23:04
males, very few female serial killers.
23:08
I think we've seen one or two in recent times.
23:11
Why is that?
23:12
Yes, exactly.
23:13
Tell us why that is.
23:15
Tell us about Eileen and why she was the rare exception.
23:18
Well, there are a lot of theories about this.
23:21
One is that almost all predatory criminals are committing their
23:27
crimes on drugs, and that drug is testosterone.
23:31
But we think, from everything we've seen, that boys who become
23:39
teenagers and men who lash out in this
23:44
way, they tend to be more aggressive.
23:47
They tend to show their frustration through aggression.
23:53
Why, you know, probably men are better at sports.
23:56
They're stronger, for one thing.
23:59
Women who may have suffered the same kind of abuse or worse, they
24:05
tend to take it out on themselves.
24:07
They become much more introspective.
24:10
They become self-punishing.
24:13
They tend to often be attracted to men like their abusive fathers
24:20
or uncles, or whoever, because they don't feel they're good enough
24:25
because of what they've been through.
24:27
So a lot of it is the inherent more aggressive tendencies of men.
24:33
I mean, look, go back to prehistoric times.
24:36
It was the men who were the hunters and often the gatherers.
24:41
They were stronger.
24:42
They were more aggressive, sometimes braver.
24:45
Women tended to be more nest
24:47
building, more interested in the home life.
24:51
So that, we think, is the primary reason.
24:55
Women, obviously,
24:57
will aggress if they're attacked.
25:02
Aileen Wuornos, as you say, was an unusual case.
25:05
She had a pretty tough life.
25:07
She was out on the street in the prostitute and all that.
25:10
When you find women who do commit murder, it's often either with a
25:18
gun because they happen to have it, or it may be poison.
25:24
It may be something like that.
25:27
The one instance we find where you sometimes do find female serial
25:33
killers is in what we used to call the so-called killer nurses,
25:36
where they may try to harm their young patients or even older
25:45
patients, either so that they can be the hero heroine and bring
25:51
them back to life or because they just resent them or have this
25:55
kind of resentment or aggression.
25:58
So you do find that from time to time.
26:00
We found a couple of cases in England not too long ago.
26:04
But generally,
26:06
I would say at least 95 percent of predatory criminals are men.
26:15
And look, let's just be honest about it.
26:18
Because of our physical strength and our biological equipment, it's
26:25
easier for men to commit sexual assault than it is for women.
26:29
Right.
26:30
For sure.
26:31
Interesting.
26:32
Last question.
26:34
Nancy Guthrie case.
26:35
It's on a lot of people's minds right now.
26:38
You have studied this issue of criminal
26:41
profilers, John Douglas, many people you associate with.
26:46
I'm sure you have some theories about who
26:49
is this person that abducted Nancy Guthrie.
26:52
This is a tough case, Craig, because it doesn't really fit into
26:58
many of the brackets or the sense of things that we have.
27:06
First of all, kidnapping by itself is a very dangerous crime.
27:11
It's not quite as dangerous as it
27:13
used to be because of cryptocurrency.
27:16
But up until now, this is the crime where you had to have as the
27:22
criminal, as the offender, you had to have some contact with the
27:27
victim's family and the authorities to get the money.
27:31
So this is a very, very difficult crime to pull off.
27:34
And people don't realize how
27:35
difficult it is often to control a victim.
27:41
So what I wonder is,
27:45
could the offender have maybe been from Mexico, south of the
27:51
border, where there is more kidnapping for ransom?
27:57
And clearly, this didn't go well.
28:01
And I just thought right from the
28:03
beginning, this is case is not going to end well.
28:07
The result, because it didn't end well, because of what I think
28:12
happened, because of Nancy probably being killed either
28:18
inadvertently or because of an exigent situation for the offender,
28:23
that's why it hasn't been solved.
28:26
That's why you haven't found the body yet.
28:29
And I'm afraid, please God, I'm wrong.
28:32
But I think it's overwhelmingly clear that she's no longer with us.
28:38
And it doesn't fit the normal pattern of any kind of crime.
28:44
And that's why it's such a tragic case.
28:48
But again, it's not a normal kind of
28:51
crime, not a normal kind of scenario.
28:53
Yeah,
28:55
tough, tough case.
28:57
I have one last question.
28:59
You're very generous with your time.
29:01
One last question.
29:03
You guys are great.
29:04
Well, that's what I was going to ask you.
29:07
Will you come back?
29:08
I think you've wet the appetite of our audience, Mark, would you
29:11
agree to come back and dig deeper into some of this stuff?
29:14
Would you do it?
29:15
I mean, we can do whatever you want.
29:17
I mean, one of the things that people always want to know is, okay,
29:19
I say, I think we know who, and the
29:22
police knew who Jack the Ripper was.
29:24
How do I know them?
29:26
We can take a deep dive.
29:28
I mean,
29:30
great case.
29:31
Just on what I know about you, and I know
29:33
Craig knows a lot more, we could go on and on.
29:36
But today, I'm going to say to you, thank you.
29:39
I also want to give you an opportunity.
29:42
What if someone just heard about you and your work on this podcast?
29:47
What book, you have numerous books.
29:50
Is there one book you would say to get a real
29:53
sense of what you've been talking about here today?
29:55
Is there one over all the others that you would recommend?
29:58
Well, yeah, I'd say start off with Mindhunter, the first book that
30:01
John and I did together that gives you
30:03
orientation and all the books we've done subsequently.
30:08
And I think there have been about 10 altogether deal with different
30:11
aspects of profiling, criminal investigative analysis.
30:16
And Dennis, you said thank you to me, but I want to take this
30:20
opportunity before we leave to say thank you to Craig, because he
30:24
has done an amazing job of making the public aware of the
30:30
contribution and the sacrifice that law
30:33
enforcement officials have made over the years.
30:36
The museum that he got going in downtown Washington is fantastic.
30:45
The National Memorial that he got going is every bit as important,
30:51
in my view, is the Vietnam Veterans, Vietnam Memorial.
30:56
And so I think everybody in law enforcement owes a debt of
31:02
gratitude and admiration to Craig.
31:05
You know, this wasn't his field originally, and he really threw
31:08
himself into it and made it his own.
31:11
For sure.
31:12
And I want to second that.
31:14
I mean,
31:15
Craig Floyd has spent his adult life in one mission, and that is to
31:21
honor and support the men and women of law enforcement.
31:25
And he continues to do that today with Citizens Behind the Badge.
31:31
And Citizens Behind the Badge is the organization that Billy,
31:35
myself, and Craig formed in what, almost six years ago, I guess.
31:39
And our sole purpose is to be the leading voice of the American
31:44
people in support of the men and women of law enforcement.
31:48
So Craig keeps on giving after founding the memorial, after
31:53
founding the museum and founding and
31:56
funding, the funding part was the hard part.
31:58
And has a book coming out soon.
32:02
Yes, he does.
32:04
Which I like.
32:05
The manuscript of which I'm reading right now.
32:08
Good.
32:08
Well, I have read it as well, and I'm going to tell you something.
32:11
If he doesn't get that going pretty
32:13
soon, I'm going to send some thugs.
32:16
Billy's going to send some thugs over there to get him going.
32:19
And I know you know the right people.
32:21
Billy definitely does.
32:23
Sure, yeah.
32:24
Thank you, guys.
32:26
Well, again, I want to remind our viewers, our listeners, if you
32:30
liked anything Mark had to say today, and there was a lot to like,
32:34
or let's say you disagreed with something, or you want to make a
32:37
comment, please, will you get online here and comment, tell us yes,
32:44
tell us no, tell us what you think about
32:46
today's interview, and most importantly, subscribe.
32:50
When you subscribe, when Mark shows up again, and we hope that is
32:54
soon, when Mark shows up again on Heroes Behind the Badge, you'll
32:57
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32:59
If you don't subscribe, you won't know.
33:02
You'll miss this.
33:03
You don't want to miss this.
33:04
Okay.
33:05
So, citizensbehindthebadge.org is our
33:08
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33:11
On that website, that not only connects you with this podcast,
33:15
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33:19
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33:22
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33:25
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33:27
Please help.
33:28
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33:30
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33:32
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33:34
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33:38
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33:39
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33:45
Okay.
33:46
Do it.
33:46
Subscribe, like, follow.
33:49
We'd love to have you as part of the team.
33:52
Thanks again, Mark.
33:53
We appreciate you.
33:53
Thank you, guys.
33:54
Thanks for being on.
33:55
Stay tuned for the next episode of Heroes Behind the Badge.