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The Downton Universe: satin, bosoms, and class · The Front

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Speaker 1: And the evil sister who's anguish, says, well, we have
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Speaker 1: a suffragette amongsters. We don't want women to vote here,
0:07
Speaker 1: and then she says to her, are you seeing that
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Speaker 1: Queen Victoria shouldn't have the rate to our powers?
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Speaker 2: From The Australian, this is the weekend edition of The Front.
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Speaker 2: I'm Claire Harvey in cinemas right now. Is Downton Abbey
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Speaker 2: the Grand Finale? It's the crescendo of a costume drama
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Speaker 2: that has brought the cream of British theater to the
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Speaker 2: screen and created one of the world's most beloved franchises.
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Speaker 2: Downton Abbey is, I'll admit it, a bit of a soapie.
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Speaker 1: So is its.
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Speaker 2: Companion show, HBO's blockbuster series The Gilded Age, which brings
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Speaker 2: Edith Wharton's eighteen eighties New York to life in skin
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Speaker 2: tight saturn and heaving bosoms, and has just been renewed
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Speaker 2: for a fourth season. These are immensely expensive, exquisitely realized productions,
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Speaker 2: and today, with my fellow superfan Richard Ferguson, we're looking
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Speaker 2: at the creative powerhouse who made history sexy. Let's start
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Speaker 2: with Julian Fellows, who is he So.
1:23
Speaker 1: Julian Fellows is a conservative member of the House of Laws.
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Speaker 1: But he basically came to real prominence with the two
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Speaker 1: thousand and one film Gosford Park, which had Michael Gambin
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Speaker 1: as the kind of horrible lord who dies mysteriously, had
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Speaker 1: Stephen Fry as the detective. It had Helen Mirren as
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Speaker 1: a kind of a cold housekeeper. We're probably the most
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Speaker 1: important character in the long term, even though she's just
1:50
Speaker 1: a cameo, is Maggie Smith as the acerbic aristocrat who's
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Speaker 1: there as a guest. And in that role you start
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Speaker 1: to get the germ of what we can called the
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Speaker 1: Julian Fellows universe, the Downton universe. Who wants Marvel universe?
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Speaker 1: Who want a down in the universe.
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Speaker 2: At the country house of Sir William mccoro.
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Speaker 1: The guests are wealthy. If I wanted coffee, I'd have
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Speaker 1: run for it.
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Speaker 2: These seems he's got omes privilege.
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Speaker 1: So Gosford Park, written by Julian Fellows, really hones in
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Speaker 1: on that Upstairs Downstairs class drama which is a favorite
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Speaker 1: of the British TV film scene, you know, including Upstairs
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Speaker 1: Downstairs the actual show, and it's a lot darker than
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Speaker 1: what comes. And I think it's because Robert Altman, the
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Speaker 1: great American director of films like Nashville and Mash is
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Speaker 1: the director behind it, so he brings a cold, skeptical
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Speaker 1: eye to this melodrama. But then a couple of years
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Speaker 1: later that Maggie Smith prototype in Gosford Park comes what
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Speaker 1: we now know is The Dowager Accountants of Grantham as
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Speaker 1: Violet Crawley and Downton Abbey comes out on ITV in
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Speaker 1: Britain around the same time as a revival of Upstairs Downstairs,
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Speaker 1: and it becomes a bit of a drama. You know
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Speaker 1: what one is going to be the success. Many people
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Speaker 1: for it be Upstairs Downstairs because Upstairs Downstairs in the
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Speaker 1: seventies was such a huge hit for the BBC, But
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Speaker 1: Downtown Abbey just goes wild. People are in love with
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Speaker 1: Maggie Smith. They are in love with Lady Mary. You know,
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Speaker 1: the haughty should be airess, but she's not Airest because
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Speaker 1: women couldn't inherit the title. They become obsessed with her
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Speaker 1: love affair with Matthew Crawley. They become obsessed with the
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Speaker 1: servants like Anna and mister Bates and all of their dramas.
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Speaker 1: It becomes a huge hit in America via PBS and
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Speaker 1: Masterpiece Fader. Is it the best British television show in
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Speaker 1: terms of quality of the past twenty years? Probably not?
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Speaker 1: But is it the most watchable? Is it the most beloved?
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Speaker 1: Does it leave the biggest legacy? I think so absolutely.
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Speaker 2: I think it's a mad idea.
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Speaker 1: There's nothing simpler the avoiding people you don't like, avoiding
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Speaker 1: one's friends, that's the real test.
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Speaker 2: Downton Abbey brought the Maggie Smith character to the center
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Speaker 2: of really a drama about social change and the disruption
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Speaker 2: of the ruling class, but turned it into a really
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Speaker 2: delicious comedy with her as the central comic figure. And
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Speaker 2: that's one of his tools, isn't it using theater actors
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Speaker 2: to bring a layer of gravitas to television productions.
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Speaker 1: The other thing Claire about that comedy aspect of it
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Speaker 1: is that the upstairs are not the villains and don't
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Speaker 1: Nabi has got a lot of criticism for this because
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Speaker 1: it doesn't think that does anything wrong with the classes.
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Speaker 1: The upstairs, Lord Grant from Lady Grant, from all those
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Speaker 1: people have a very nice, quite paternal relationship with the
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Speaker 1: staff who the almost sometimes talked to late children, and
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Speaker 1: the staff are very grateful, you know, we're grateful to
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Speaker 1: your ladyship. We're grateful to your lordship, and it can
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Speaker 1: actually greet quite about.
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Speaker 2: There's a layer of historical accuracy. So down to Babby said,
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Speaker 2: in Yorkshire where my family's from, and one of my
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Speaker 2: mother's aunts famously in our family history this is a
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Speaker 2: family who lived in council housing got a job in
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Speaker 2: the Grand House, the nearby aristocratic mansion, and that was
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Speaker 2: for my mother's family a huge triumph. You know the
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Speaker 2: fact that a woman from their working class family had
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Speaker 2: secured herself a job like that, and also the fact
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Speaker 2: that for women in that time, service was a relatively safe,
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Speaker 2: relatively well paid sosi of income.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. The only person who really questions the
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Speaker 1: system and disrupts the system is Tom, the Irish socialist chauffeur,
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Speaker 1: and he runs away with Lady Sibyl. Spoiler alerts, the
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Speaker 1: show has been out for nearly twenty years, so like, guys,
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Speaker 1: get over it. Lady Sybil dies during childbirth, but Tom
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Speaker 1: very quickly becomes a member of the family, and he
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Speaker 1: might go around saying I don't believe in these kind
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Speaker 1: of patriarchal class structures. I don't want people to call
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Speaker 1: me Lord so and so. But then he very quickly,
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Speaker 1: you know, in down n Abbey movie, marries one of
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Speaker 1: the servants who turns out is actually the heir to
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Speaker 1: the fortune and just becomes with posh person and he
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Speaker 1: just becomes a member of the family. And all these
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Speaker 1: things are explored, for sure, But I think the fact
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Speaker 1: that it doesn't lecture it doesn't say these people are
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Speaker 1: baddies because they lived a different life. But I also
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Speaker 1: think the fact that it doesn't disrupt people's ideas too
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Speaker 1: much helps it.
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Speaker 2: Although I would argue the whole show is about revolution.
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Speaker 2: You know, it starts with a death, the news of
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Speaker 2: the Titanic sinking, which has killed the air presumptive to
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Speaker 2: the Grantham title and the house which has disinherited the
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Speaker 2: daughters of the family.
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Speaker 1: Is it true what they're saying. I believe so, my lord.
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Speaker 1: I'm afraid we'll know some people on it. I don't
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Speaker 1: suppose there are any lists of survivors.
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Speaker 2: Yet that invites into the household the kind of middle
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Speaker 2: class distant relatives who are now going to inherit instead,
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Speaker 2: and then it's about the complete destruction of the world
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Speaker 2: represented by Maggie Smith, isn't it. Everything changes from that
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Speaker 2: moment on.
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Speaker 1: I don't actually entirely agree with you, because while it's
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Speaker 1: about revolution and things change, and you know, Lord Grantham
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Speaker 1: can't quite handle it, and the cook keeps saying, why
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Speaker 1: do I have to have a freezer? Can't I just
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Speaker 1: keep things in the ass, And you know, the gorgeous
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Speaker 1: lady gampt from whose American sort of says, you know,
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Speaker 1: is there any part of the of the modern world,
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Speaker 1: Missus Padmore, that you don't want to see change? And
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Speaker 1: she's like, well, it would like to get rid of
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Speaker 1: the cossets, and that's very charming. But the thing about
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Speaker 1: the revolution is that it does not disrupt them one iota.
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Speaker 1: Life is slightly harder, but they still live in the
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Speaker 1: big house and everybody still says, oh, we love you,
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Speaker 1: your lordship, we love you, like they're absolutely fine. Even
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Speaker 1: in this grand finale which the trailers come out and
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Speaker 1: it's all kind of like they're saying goodbye, Lord Grant
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Speaker 1: from saying goodbye, they don't say goodbye. Spoiler alert again,
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Speaker 1: they don't say goodbye. They just move into Maggie Smith's
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Speaker 1: dower house because she's dead. It does not challenge the
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Speaker 1: status quo whatsoever. The guilded Age is slightly different because
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Speaker 1: that does challenge the state as coo, because you've got
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Speaker 1: an old rich and a new rich.
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Speaker 2: So let's connect these two shows, Downtown Abbey in the
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Speaker 2: Gilded Age. They both begin with a death. In the
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Speaker 2: case of the Gilded Age, which is set in eighteen
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Speaker 2: eighties New York, it's the news of the death of
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Speaker 2: the wayward brother of the establishment van Ryn family that
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Speaker 2: brings into the Van Ryn household in New York a
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Speaker 2: young woman who challenges the family snobbery and is willing
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Speaker 2: to do what the family will never do, which is
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Speaker 2: embraced the nuvou reche who are coming up in New
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Speaker 2: York City. Julian Fellows conceived it as almost like an
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Speaker 2: origin story for Downton Abbey. You know, how does an
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Speaker 2: American marry into the British nobility. And in the Gilded
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Speaker 2: Age we see the wealthy nouvau riche mother played by
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Speaker 2: Carrie Kohn brilliantly Bertha Russell, plotting to marry her daughter
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Speaker 2: to an English lord, but The Guilded Age. Would you
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Speaker 2: call it a comedy?
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Speaker 1: I think The Gilded Age is one of the funniest
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Speaker 1: shaws that's been on American television in years.
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Speaker 2: Our brother has died, our brother with whom we have
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Speaker 2: had no connection these many years. We should have gone
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Speaker 2: for the funeral anyway.
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Speaker 1: It wasn't worth an uncomfortable day of travel to make
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Speaker 1: sure Henry was dead. I mean Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon,
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Speaker 1: so they kind of take the roles of Maggie Smith
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Speaker 1: and Penelope Wilton as the older women who are constantly bickering.
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Speaker 1: So in Downton you've got Maggie Smith is the fearsome
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Speaker 1: old dragon, and you've got Penelope Wilton as cousin Isabelle, who's,
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Speaker 1: you know, the mother of Matthew. She's the middle class
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Speaker 1: woman who's got an education, who's a nurse who's come
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Speaker 1: into the family, and they kind of have this comedy role.
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Speaker 1: In Gilded Age, you have these two sisters. So you
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Speaker 1: have the married missus Van Ryan, who is Christine Baransky,
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Speaker 1: and she is once again a fearsome dragon, but she's
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Speaker 1: much colder than Violet than named Maggie Smith. Christine Baransky
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Speaker 1: is so cold and mean most of the time, although
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Speaker 1: she starts to up a bit in season three. And
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Speaker 1: then you have you have them Cynthia and Nixon as
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Speaker 1: this very mousey, dowdy Spencer sister who's never you know,
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Speaker 1: never been out the house. But what would happen to
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Speaker 1: my poor little pumpkin surrounded by strangers?
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Speaker 2: You never know, they might be very kind to him. Oh,
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Speaker 2: brilliant casting for her having come out of the Sex
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Speaker 2: and the City universe as the sort of sexually rapacious Miranda.
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Speaker 1: You couldn't get anybody further from Miranda than the woman
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Speaker 1: who becomes Missus forty because of course she marries the
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Speaker 1: reverend who dies in two episodes. But it's good because
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Speaker 1: he leaves her the fortune because I've lost all the money.
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Speaker 1: But they are wonderful because what he does through those
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Speaker 1: older characters is explain how the world is changing, but
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Speaker 1: once again makes it familiar and safe. But it is
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Speaker 1: slightly different because the challenge is apart from maybe Tom
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Speaker 1: and Dalton Abbey, the challenge has really come from the
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Speaker 1: internal characters, not from external forces. It's not there's a
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Speaker 1: war on now, so we'd better think about whether Dalnton
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Speaker 1: can survive.
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Speaker 2: I think there's a real feminist undertone to both of them.
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Speaker 2: One of the big questions that they're trying to answer
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Speaker 2: is what role should divorced women be allowed to have
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Speaker 2: in society. That's also something that's explored in the new
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Speaker 2: Downton Abbey movie. I think there's a real narrative here
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Speaker 2: about the growth of women's power. You know, that's what
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Speaker 2: we're going to see in the Downton Aby movie too.
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Speaker 1: This is the thing is that in Downton n Aby one,
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Speaker 1: Maggie Smith, who explains she's going to die soon, which
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Speaker 1: surprisingly she actually does die, says to worry, you will
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Speaker 1: be the next me, and basically don't. Nabi is the
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Speaker 1: story of how Lady Mary succeeds Maggie Smith and Hugh
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Speaker 1: Bonneville who pleads Lord Grantham, And in the Frond movie,
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Speaker 1: Lord Grantham says, that's you are in charge of the
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Speaker 1: house now, it's not me anymore. And the guilded Age
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Speaker 1: is a lot like that. So Missus Russell is based
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Speaker 1: on one of the great Vanderbilt matriarchs who was a suffragette.
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Speaker 1: And you obviously in the latest season you had that
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Speaker 1: great conversation between Missus Russell and the evil sister of
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Speaker 1: the duke who she's married or poor daughter off to,
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Speaker 1: and the evil sister who's English says, well, we have
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Speaker 1: a suffragette amongsters. We don't want women to vote here,
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Speaker 1: And then she says to her, are you saying that
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Speaker 1: Queen Victoria shouldn't have the right to our powers? You know,
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Speaker 1: she is a challenging figure. The other thing that's begged
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Speaker 1: talking about the power the story of women and feminism
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Speaker 1: in the Gilded Age is that it also introduces race
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Speaker 1: in a way that isn't really explored and downt nawby
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Speaker 1: because of a completely different set of circumstances.
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Speaker 2: That's a great point when so many established franchises are
13:46
Speaker 2: just doing colorblind casting. So you see in the new
13:49
Speaker 2: season of wolf Hall, for example, Tudor courtiers are suddenly
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Speaker 2: black because they've realized they needed to find a way
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Speaker 2: to get some diversity in the cast. In the Gilded Age,
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Speaker 2: what do you and Pillows has done. He's thoughtfully examine
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Speaker 2: the black elite of New York at that time and
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Speaker 2: the discrimination knife fist.
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Speaker 1: Exactly and doesn't put them in a position of victimhood.
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Speaker 1: They have agency. It shows that at that time, at
14:15
Speaker 1: least in the North, there was wealth and it was used.
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Speaker 1: And it still explores racism. You know, when Peggy is
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Speaker 1: a journalist for a period of time, she goes down
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Speaker 1: to the South and that kind of segregation there is explored,
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Speaker 1: but it is quite well done. I think the Gilded
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Speaker 1: Age is more sophisticated than Doubt and when it comes
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Speaker 1: to that, so Down to Nabby does have moments like that.
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Speaker 1: For example, Lady Rose, who is Lily James, who's in
14:42
Speaker 1: Doubt Nabby for about a couple of seasons. You know,
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Speaker 1: she nearly runs away with an African American jazz singer,
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Speaker 1: and then she marries a Jewish aristocrat, which is very
14:53
Speaker 1: controversial and everybody's trying to split up the marriage, but
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Speaker 1: it doesn't have that depth. What Doubt now he does
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Speaker 1: do very well is explore how difficult it was for
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Speaker 1: gay people in that period of time, especially in Britain
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Speaker 1: in that post Oscar wild era, where gay people had
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Speaker 1: often been you know, not talked about, but almost left alone.
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Speaker 1: And then Oscar Wilde becomes such a huge furfeit when
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Speaker 1: he's ultimately put in jail for his affair with Lord Bosey.
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Speaker 1: It explores through the Footman, who is a villain for
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Speaker 1: a most of the party and has a huge redemption
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Speaker 1: story in Down Nabby, the evil gay footman who becomes
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Speaker 1: a hero in the end, explores how damaging and how
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Speaker 1: difficult you know. At one point he tries he has
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Speaker 1: to try hormone treatments, he tries to kill himself. Downton
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Speaker 1: is very good at exploring that, and there's a little
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Speaker 1: bit of that in The Gilded Age with the gay,
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Speaker 1: dissolute son of Missus van Ryan.
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Speaker 2: After the Brag how Julian Philo cracked the soap opera
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Speaker 2: West End Broadway magic formula. Both of them have touches
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Speaker 2: of serious drama and comedy, but also there's a soap
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Speaker 2: opera kind of vibe, isn't there. I love how there's
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Speaker 2: equal kind of weight given to who's going to be
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Speaker 2: invited to the opening of the new opera house to
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Speaker 2: someone who's just been run over in the street and
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Speaker 2: left the holiday house to begay son who now has
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Speaker 2: to explain why he's inheriting a holiday house from his
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Speaker 2: secret lover.
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Speaker 1: Julian Fellows. There's two things he understands through his casting
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Speaker 1: of both shores and the way he constructors Britain has
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Speaker 1: produced two great things for the world, theater and soap
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Speaker 1: operas Julian follows. He understands and how to do them
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Speaker 1: better than any American ever could. So he cast people
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Speaker 1: like Kelly O'Hara, it's a great Broadway star, multiple Tony
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Speaker 1: Award winner Audrey McDonald and plays Peggy's mum. She's the
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Speaker 1: greatest Broadway star I think of her generation. We've got
17:17
Speaker 1: to talk about Kerry Kohon and Carrie Couon. I mean,
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Speaker 1: Carry Kuon is just basically Rose Hbo whether it be
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Speaker 1: White lord As, whether it be the leftovers.
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Speaker 2: I'm glad you have a beautiful face, and I'm glad
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Speaker 2: that you have a.
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Speaker 1: Beautiful life, and I'm just happy to be at the table.
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Speaker 1: But he uses fear actors really well. But he knows
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Speaker 1: how to do a soap opera like think of in
17:50
Speaker 1: Downton Anna's sexual assault and mister Bates. Will he end
17:54
Speaker 1: up in jail for killing the rapist or not? Think
17:57
Speaker 1: of Lady Edith and the baby and they have to
18:00
Speaker 1: go and get the baby, and then she doesn't want
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Speaker 1: the baby, and then she runs away and Lady Grantham
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Speaker 1: and the Dowag accounts are like come.
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Speaker 2: Back, bring the baby.
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Speaker 1: We can bring up the baby. In Gilded Age season three,
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Speaker 1: you know, finally our two lovebirds get together from across
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Speaker 1: the street, the niece of Missus Van Ryan.
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Speaker 2: Played by Meryl strapsto at Llowi's a Jacobson.
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Speaker 1: Louis or Jacobson and the incredibly good looking guy.
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Speaker 2: Harry Richardson, the Australian hector who plays Larry Russell as he's.
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Speaker 1: They finally get together and then he goes to a
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Speaker 1: gentleman's club you know, you know service by Harlot's. He
18:39
Speaker 1: doesn't even you know, kiss And this another thing about
18:42
Speaker 1: both shows. They are wonderful at romance without doing sex.
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Speaker 1: There's lots of kissing and there's lots of romance, and
18:51
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes somebody's found in bed with someone. And then,
18:55
Speaker 1: of course, obviously in downt n Abbe, the Turkish diplomat
18:59
Speaker 1: tries it on with Late Mary and then dies of
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Speaker 1: a heart attack. But sex has talked about, but it's
19:05
Speaker 1: never actually seen, and yet it gives it so much
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Speaker 1: more power. Do you mine? So did you get everything
19:17
Speaker 1: you wanted from this evening? Let's just say we are
19:22
Speaker 1: on our way, mister and missus Russell must be the
19:27
Speaker 1: sexiest couple in all of television.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, the quivering of the wing of the.
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Speaker 1: Bustles and mister Russell's.
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Speaker 2: Dinner jackets.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's so sexy, She's so sexy. They never take
19:40
Speaker 1: their clothes off. He understands that gratuity and vulgarity does
19:46
Speaker 1: not equal romance. Good acting, good writing, chemistry, emotion. That
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Speaker 1: is what makes romance superior to more lude. Wheez of
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Speaker 1: displaying that.
20:07
Speaker 2: Downton Abbey. The Grand Finale is in theaters now and
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Speaker 2: The Gilded Age is available for streaming. Richard Ferguson is
20:14
Speaker 2: the Australian's Canber Bureau chief. You can read his work
20:18
Speaker 2: anytime at the Australian dot com dot au. This episode
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Speaker 2: of the Front was hosted by me Claire Harvey and
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Speaker 2: produced by Jasper Leek, with help from lead Sammaglu. Thanks
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Speaker 2: for joining us on the Front this week. Our team
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Speaker 2: also includes Kristin Amiot, Tiffany Dimack, Joshua Burton and Stephanie Coombs.