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Carol with Lauren Flans and Nicole Pacent · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On the Bedel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello and welcome
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. My
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: name is Jamie Loftus, and we talk about the representation
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: of women in movies our podcast you're listening to. That's it,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: This is it? Your taps? Here y are, yeah, and
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: here we are and here we are once again. The
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast takes a look at how female characters are
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: portrayed in famous movies, and we use the Bechdel Test
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: as a jumping off point for that discussion. What on
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: earth is that? Well, I'll tell you. It's a test
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel. It's a media test
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: that requires that two female identifying characters. They have to
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: have names, and they have to talk to each other
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: for two lines of dialogue about something that is not
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: a man or related to a man. Wow, it sounds
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: like it should be easy, but a lot of movies.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: The Lord of the Rings doesn't pass not one of
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: the ten hours of that famous movie franchise. So that's
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: why we're here. Yes, and we did this on the
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Debs episode as well, But I wanted to dive a
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: little bit deeper into the origins of the Bechdel test
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: than we normally do because I think it's specially relevant
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: for this movie that we're discussing. Um. So, Jamie, as
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: you said, Alison Beachtel Queer Icon inadvertently created the Bechdel
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Test in her book Dikes To Watch Out For, which
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: was published in I think some people think that she
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: kind of like deliberately set out to create this test.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: It's it's that it was. It's usually presented as like
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: it was invented, as like, you know, like an academic
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: paper or something. Right, it was more that it appeared
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: in her book and then it was just like later
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: co opted into the test that we now use today.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: And Alison Becktel credits the idea to her friend Liz
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Wallace and to the writings of Virginia Woolf, specifically her
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: essay A Room of One's Own Um. And then the
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: test is sometimes referred to as the Bechdel Wallace test,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: which Alison Bechtel is said to prefer so that's probably
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: what we should call it also, but we don't. We
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: simply always forget. It's simply our fault and we've funked
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: up and we're sorry. Yes, we're so sorry. Um. And
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: then in the comic Dikes to Watch Out for Uh,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: there are two lesbian characters, and the context of their
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: conversation is that there is so little queer woman representation
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: in movies that the only way for them to imagine
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: a female character in a movie might be a lesbian
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: is if she is seen talking to another woman on
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: screen about not a man, like about something other than
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: a man. Right, So the context of the original comic
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: is like rooted in like Alison Bechdel's querness, and that
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: is generally erased from the conversation surrounding the Bechdel tests
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: of Ectel Wallace test. So the because especially for our
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: episode today, but also all the time, um, you know,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: contacts like that is so often erased. We've even been
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: guilty of it at times on this show. So it
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: is it is definitely worth bringing up. And also just
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: like read Alison and Bectel's stuff and watch it. You
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: can watch it on a fucking Broadway. It's so it's
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: and it's also incredible and good. So indeed, Yeah, the
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Bechtel Wallace test there, it is there, it is baby. Hey,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: should we introduce our guests. Let's do it. I'm excited
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: for today. Me too. We have two guests today. They
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: are the hosts of Coming Out with Lauren and Nicole
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: a k a. Coming Out Pod. It's Lauren Flans and
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: Nicole Patient. Thank you so much for being here, Thank
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: you for having us. Well, guys, so we are talking
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: about the movie Carol. Carol, what is each of your
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: relationship with this movie? We should probably start with Lauren
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: because I think her relationship is more intimate and better. Yes, um,
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: I saw this movie in theaters shortly after I came out,
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: which is rare for me. I do not see movies
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: that often. But um, I have a buddy who for
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: years and years now every Christmas we movie hop which
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: guys don't do that pay for your movies, but one
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: day a year we will like pay for a movie
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: at ten am and then just see like three movies
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: over the course. Get a beautiful tradition. Yeah, and also
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: I feel like in certain I guess Carol isn't maybe
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: the best example of this, but like for like Disney,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: for like anything owned by Disney, I'm like, I will
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: watch this for free. I feel entitled, exactly. And Carol
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: was the first movie of the day, so you paid
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: for that, paid for Carol. The following movie I did
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: not pay for it was Daddy's Home and I don't
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: feel badly about that. Oh god, it's actually I really
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: enjoyed it. I'm not gonna die. It's a great follow
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: up to Carol. Is like a Palette concert. It's Will
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: Ferrell and Mark Wahlberg and a lot of hi jinks. Okay, yeah,
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: we'll watch him at some point, inevitably we'll do a
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: betel Cast episode on the Daddy's Home friend. Yeah, it's
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: almost a franchise. One more and I think there's I
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: think there's two of them. Yeah, there's still Well, when
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Daddy's Home three comes out, we'll be sure to do.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Everything's on hold, But I did. Yeah, I saw it
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: in theaters on Christmas with my friend um who And
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: I'll just tell this part quickly, but he's one of
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: he's a friend I've known since college. I've known him
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: since before I was out and we've never had. He's
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: one of those friends and I don't have a lot
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: of these. But I don't know if the call you,
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: if any you probably know it. But I was gonna say,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: is one of those friends. Were like, I'm like, does
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: he know that I'm gay? Because he's not on social
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: media that much and we've known each other since before
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: then and we've never talked about it. So it was
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: a very weird movie to like be sitting next to
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: like my straight guy friend of me, like, what does
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: he get? Yeah, I know everybody knows I'm queer. I
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: don't even ask you that it would be they'd have
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: to be under a rock. Nicole, what's your relationship with
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: the movie? I actually did not see it in theaters.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: I saw it via a screener afterwards. That's what I've
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: done the past several years, where I'm like, why would
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: I pay for this when I'm going to get it
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: in the mail? Um, And so that's what I did.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, my first impression of it was just that
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: it was really beautiful. The color palette is awesome in
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: the movie, which is something I noticed again the second time. Um,
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: it's also shot on sixty millimeter. I want to say, yeah,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: so it like has that grain to it. So I mean,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: from like a visual standpoint, I really enjoyed it, And Okay,
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: if I wasn't already queer, i'd be queer for Kate Blanchet,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: Like that's a great way that I love everything that
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: she does, and I think that she she's like maybe no,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: she's my favorite actress, so she can, in my opinion,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: do no wrong. Um, and she's such a presence that
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: it's just it's amazing. So except for when she doesn't
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: pass the Bechtel test in Lord of the Rings her fault.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: I like to hold women accountable for movie. Definitely, she
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: did a polish on all the Lord of the Rings crabs.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: I think that originally, okay, let's make this Candon. The
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: movie did pass the Bectel test quite a bit, and
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: Lynch went into meetings and was just like, I just
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: am not comfortable with women speaking to each other. So
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: that yeah, okay, go ahead. So so I mean I
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: remember loving loving her in it and just thinking it
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: was a really you know, beautiful film and sad and
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: melancholic and very reflective of that time and important that
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: we tell those stories and how difficult it was because
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes we're like, especially in Los Angeles, we're like, oh,
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: you know, everything's fine, now you know? Um, So I
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: think it's an important part of queer history, those kind
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: of stories. But it didn't. It didn't like go to
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: the canon of one of my favorite queer films though,
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: And I didn't really know why that was until the
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: second time around and watching it and realizing that Rooney
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: Mara is about as interesting as a piece of cardboard,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: so I just, yeah, we will. But in watching it
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: the second time, I have some issues. But it had
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: been funny to me because like all of my queer
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: female friends were obsessed with that movie, and I remember
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: just being like, uh, I wonder why it hasn't like
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: stuck with me, And now I know, you know, oh um.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: I didn't see it in the theater, but I did
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: watch I knew that it had like a lot of
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: buzz around it, so I made sure to watch it
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: pretty soon afterward. And I similarly thought it was visually beautiful.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: I think it's boring. That is the most popular opinion.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: And I have reasons to back this up, which we
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: will get into, and it has largely to do with
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: the what I think is a lack of on screen
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: chemistry between Cate Lynchett and Rooney Mara. But yeah, we'll
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: get there. Um. But yeah, I only had seen it
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: that once before prepping for this episode, so I don't
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: have much of a grand history with it. But um, yeah,
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk more about it, Jamie, what about you.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: I hadn't this was this movie came out in which
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: was truly before I saw movies in theaters. I so
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: I didn't see it when it came out. I remember
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: there were multiple of my aunts who told me to
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: go see it. My aunts like all saw it together
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: and they were just like, it's beautiful. You have to
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: see it. Like, I don't listen to my aunts. I'm
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: an adult. Um, my aunts loved it, but I mean,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: I really, I really enjoyed it. I also, it's so
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: weird because we were talking in the car driving over
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: about it and you were like, I think it's boring.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I really liked it. But and
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: then later I was like, I was asleep for like
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: ten minutes a couple different times, but then I would
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: have to like a couple But then when I rewound it,
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: I'm like, it's so beautiful. But I was asleep sometimes,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: but it was so beautiful. Should I do the recap? Yeah,
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: let's do it. Okay, So it's the end of I
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: think nine. I believe. I think that's right. That's right
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: around the holidays, we meet Terres. That's Roney Mar's character.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: She works at a department store and at work she
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: catches the eye of a woman who is shopping for
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: a gift for her daughter, because women be shopping and
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: women mothers. Carol and this is Carol Kate Blanchett's character.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: And Carol approaches Terres. They get to talking, and then
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: Carol accidentally leaves her gloves behind at the department store.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: Accident was like accidents I've done before, right, We've all left,
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: you know, earrings or something. I guided that with his
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: jewel pot at my house. I think Jeel modern Carol. Yeah,
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: the update, Carol leaves her jewel time on the counter. See,
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: I like, but guys are not crafty enough to have
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: done that accidentally with an asterisk he left it is.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: It's the George Costanza move though from Seinfeld. I think, oh,
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: far be it from me, which I assume is borrowing
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: from the Patricia George Costanza and Carol. That was his move.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: He used to leave something and draw his apartment and
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: stuff that he cou But we are on a in
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: sant anw Carol and Carol leaves her gloves. Yes that
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: we see Carol at home and she has a husband,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Hard he's the guy from Friday Night Lights. Yes, truly,
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: and he doesn't act well enough to convince me he's
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: not the guy from Friday Night Lights. In this particular movie,
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, it's Mr Coach. I think he does
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: a fine job. But anyway, so she has a husband,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: She has a daughter named Rindy, who she loves so much.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: She loves her daughter Rindy. They are rich important to
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: know that. And then there is a mention of Carol's
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: good friend Abby, who we will meet later on, who
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Hard Hard clearly has a problem with. And then we
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: see a little bit of terrass life. She has a
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: boyfriend named Richard who wants her to go to Europe
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: with him. She has an interest in photography, and then
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: she mails the gloves back to Carol. I like that
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: she's a photographer. I think in the book she's not
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: a photographer, But then in the movie she is a
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: photographer because she's not like the other girls. Oh yeah,
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: have I there of you read the book? I haven't.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: That's all right, yes that I have not read it.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: We'll go a little bit into the history of this book,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: the adaptation. I've read the Wikipedia page of the Book
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: of Us. We would never read a none of us, um,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: but we we just did some research on the adaptation Chess.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: So Carol takes Terres to lunch to say thank you
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: for returning the gloves. We learned that Carol is in
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: the middle of a divorce. And then Carol invites Derres
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: to her very large house. They hang out, and then
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Heart comes home and he's like, who is this lady
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: riding night lights? He's like, Carol, you know, come with
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: me for Christmas. She's like, no, I don't want to
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: work getting a divorce. And then he's all piste off
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: fight the big games coming up, touchdown. And then soon
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: after Carol learns from her lawyer that Harge is filing
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: for soul custody of their daughter on the grounds of
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: a morality clause because basically, because she's had a relationship
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: with women, she is considered an unfit mother. So Carol
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: is obviously very upset about this, and then to Raise
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: and her hanging out some more, and then her boyfriend
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Richard is upset with her. He's like, you have a
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: crush on a woman and she's like, no, I don't,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: but yes she does. I like how to raise like
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: she's she doesn't stand up for herself in a lot
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: of areas of her life, but against Richard, she's always
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: just like shut up. Like I was. I was like,
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: oh my, I wish I could do that, where he's
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: just like, why don't you want to be my girlfriend?
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: And she's like leave me alone, go away, I don't
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: want to meet your Like she manages to do all
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: of it showing little to no emotions, which is which
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: is really impressive. Stop go away. I'm going to be
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: such a Rooney Mara to her in this episode, which
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: I can tell it like here, here's what I'm gonna say.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: I actually really like Runey Mara and other things, so like,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: I'm not this is not me like hating on Runey
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: Mara and no, totally from a queer standpoint, I wanted
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: her so bad girl with the dragon tattoo because that's
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: my type and way seen that movie. So this is
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: one of the few things that's runey Marian. But anyway, anyway, sorry,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: it does seem like her being boring in this movie
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: was a choice because she can do not boring. Definitely,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: That's why it was very well, yeah, should we wait
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: till the end of the Yeah? Okay, Well so whin
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: she's more Okay, so the rest of this recap here
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: we go. So then Carolin Torey has leave together to
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: go on a road trip to the Midwest, and they're
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: getting closer and closer. There's a hand touch here, there's
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: a hand on the shoulder there, and then at one
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: point rustling a fabric this like shots of a steering
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: wheel and you're just like, it's also to fall, and
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: then you're like, I'm sleepy. And then at one point
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: to Ray suggests that they share a motel room rather
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: than get two separate rooms. And then shortly after this
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: they finally kiss the mom and we've been waiting for
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: New Year's New Year's Eve, Yes, it's the New Year.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: They kissed during the ball drop, and then they have sex,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: and then they meet what seems like a nice gentleman
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: on their travels, but he turns out to be seems
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: he seems creepy. Yeah, I have magazines want to buy
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: the d like, yeah, is creepy. And the movie tells
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: you he's creepy because whenever you like, hear his voice
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: off screen before you see him, and then as soon
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: as you hear his voice, the camera tilts up really
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: fast and like a startling, like, oh, who's this guy is?
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: So you're like, we know not to trust him, but
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: we don't know why yet. But the reason why is
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: that he is a private snoop kind of guy who
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Hard had hired to follow Carol and to Raise around
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: to record them to have further evidence in his case
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: in this divorce. So then Carol gets on a flight
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: back to New York and her friend Abby Sarah Paulson's
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: character flies in to drive to Raise back to New York,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: and then Carol has left a letter that effectively breaks
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: off their relationship. She's like, we shouldn't have any contact,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: and you know by forever to Raise is devastated understandably,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: and then we cut to some time later, Um, she's
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: developing some photos she took. Carol has been seeing a
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: psychotherapist and she's clearly trying to do whatever it takes
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: so that she can keep seeing her daughter. To Raise
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: makes an effort to contact her, but then eventually stops.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: Is at this point that Carol has had it. She's like,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna see my daughter and I'm gonna keep being
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: with women, and that's my final offer. Bangs her table,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: damn it. And then the guy's like oh, and then
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: Carol contexts Raise, and then they meet up and then
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: it's the same scene we see in the very beginning,
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: which we weren't really sure what was going on, but
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: now we get it. Carol asks if Rays wants to
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: come live with her in her new apartment, and then
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: Trace is like, no, I don't think so. Carol says,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: I love you, and just then they get interrupted and
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Terrace goes to a party, and then Carrie Brownstein is
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: like making eyes at her there and we're like, sure,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: why not, okay, and then but then Terray's returns to
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: the restaurant where Carol is at and then they look
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: at each other and then they smile, and then they're
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: going to be together the end. Also, Terres becomes a
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: photographer at the New York time and and still is
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: saying nothing, I think is she not just like I think,
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: like a file. Yeah, I think she's like what they
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: let girls do back just sitting a room with men
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: and take notes of what the men said. Yes, she's
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: got to glow up though it's better. Yeah. Yeah, she's
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: doing well for a woman. So that's the story. Let's
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: take a quick break and then we'll come right back
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: for the discussion. We're back. Yes, there's so much to
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: talk about. Well, why don't we hand it over to
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: the two of you and talk about the representation of
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: queerness and queer women in this movie and how you
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: felt it was handled and just your general thoughts on that.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: I well, I should say I love this movie. I
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: would imaginally love this movie. I think I'm in the
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: minority of not just queer women, but like anyone like
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: I have definitely, both online and in person, been mildly
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: shamed for finding this movie riveting because most people do
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: think it's super boring. I've also been the opposite of
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: King shamed for thinking it's hot, like people have active
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: you just made it. I saw. I think this movie
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: is hot. I will defend that later, but yeah, I
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: think I'm in the minority. That being said, I think
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: it's a good depiction. I mean it is you know,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: it is of a very specific time period. It definitely
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: has its issues. I think watching it this time, I
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: think there are two people of color in the entire movie.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: They do not speak there in service positions. Uh yeah,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: And you know we make the argument like, well it's
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: that time, and they like of this stature, they wouldn't
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: they'd only be interacting with white people, and like, yes,
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: that's true, but also what the fuck? Um? So, yes,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: I think this movie has this issues in terms of
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: queerness specifically. I think it's a great depiction. U I
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: can talk now about what I perceive. Yeah, I know.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: One of the kind of issues that I have with it,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: I think, more so with Richard, is that so Terres
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: is like a blank slate, and so I think for
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: a lot of it's like people projecting what they like.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: When Richard's like I love you, I want to spend
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: my life with you, it's like, what do you love
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: about her? Dude? What are you? Act? Question I had
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: to every single person who was like, actually, Carrie Brownsteen
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: at the end, she's like, how do you know fil
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: or something? She said, Well, I assume like everybody here
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: is fills friends and carry Brownsteen looks a her and goes,
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: I see why Phil speaks so highly? Yeah, back, why
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: why why she said words that is a misstep. Yeah,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: you're like, what do you see? I was? It's just
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: Crazy's a photographer. She's not like the other girl. She's
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: not like the other girl. She has a fantastic haircut,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: especially for that era stands out in the crowd. But yeah,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: I think with Carol, initially, I think it's it's are
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: a definitely like a physical attraction and like a I
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: will call it a vibe, which I think in like
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: that's what you had to go off of, like if
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: there was any sort of electricity, You're like, I guess
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: I'll aggressively follow that because otherwise I'm never going to
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: meet anyone ever. Like That's just sort of how it was.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: And I do think that Carol Enterrez. I think Carol
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: does get to know her as a person and does
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: love her for her. You can argue that the audience
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: has to do a lot of that work on their
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: own of like I know, because I can think in
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: the same thing because like we don't we see those
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: pretty shots of them with the hand and the wheel
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: and this and the whatever, but like the actual getting,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: we don't get to know Tures much less Kate Blanchet, Like,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: we don't have any idea why she actually likes her
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: other than this initial chemical attraction that they have. And
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure that I agree with you. I'm not
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: sure I buy that anyway. Um, their chemistry have seen
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: much better chemistry. But like, I don't think. I don't
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: think it's horrible, but I just to me, I'm like,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: I can't, I cannot Cate Blanchett is so she has
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: so much power her character, and she is so well rounded,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: and there's just there is so much that she brings
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: to the table that you're like, why this blank slate
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: of a person. Well, I think that's part of what
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: she's attracted to. I think Tres place everything like so
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: close to the vest. You can argue that there's nothing
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: underneath the vest if you like, but I prefer to
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: think of it it's like Carol, that character. Everything is
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: just out like it is just out there. There's no subtlety,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: there's like and Terres is like a mystery or you know,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: like she's got and some people are drawn to that,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: especially people who are very like spotlight on me all
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: the time. I do think there's an attraction to people
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: who are more like like what is she thinking? Which
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: is a line that she said, She's like, do you
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: know many times a day I ask you that I
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: liked I liked her in the book. I don't know.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: I mean because Runey Mara, I think it's like thirty
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: when this movie is filmed or something. But the character
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Torres and in the ages, I feel like we're sort
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: of intentionally not stated in the movie because of the actors.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: But Torres is supposed to be like nineteen or twenty.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: She's supposed to be really young, and so I'm like,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: who has a personality when they're nineteen and they're you know,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: I had a magnetic personality when I was nineteen. Well,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: I certainly didn't like I, especially if I was around
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: like an older person that I was sexually intimidated by
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: and had a huge question and I don't know, like
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: I I again, it's like, it's it's weird because I
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: agree with both of you that it is is a
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: boring movie, but they were also I I really I
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: don't know, I like related to her with just there
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: were moments where her personality, Like she snapped at Richard
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: constantly because she just wasn't intimidated by him and was
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: very direct with the people. She wasn't intimidated by people.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: She was. She kind of disappeared and I was like, oh,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: that's how I was when I was nineteen. Hopefully I
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: wasn't quite that boring. But there's you know, boring representation
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: in this movie is high. Well, someone needs to represent
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: I mean there's not enough of that. There's boring person
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: eratre and I think this movie does a lot in
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: that area. But yeah, no, I think with the with
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: the with people, she's not intimidated by it, specifically men,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: because in that scene at night with that guy Danny
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: in the office, he's like, oh I think like right
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: before he kisses her and he's like, I think people
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: are and she's like, I don't think that at all. Right, Yeah,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: I mean that's energy, and she like disagrees with him.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: She's like, I don't think that. But then yeah, with Carol,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: she's very I let myself get hopelessly sidetracked, as I do.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: But what I was going to say, Nicole is like
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: in seeing this, since Nicole and I both volunteer facilitate
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: at the l A LGBT Center, and in in doing
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: that and in seeing in talking to like so many
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: women who are like just coming out, so especially in
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: the early nineteen fifties, especially when she's like one whatever,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: I think it's like she's not a fully formed person
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: because she hasn't reckoned with that part of herself. So
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: I think she literally is a blank slate because there's
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: this huge part of her like she's getting you guys,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: like she's as fuck like she s he's girl, and
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: she's like it's like she's this girl who hasn't had
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: any of that developed, so she's coming across as just
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: like this literally empty vessel. I don't know. It was
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: really interesting for me to watch this movie having now
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: met so many women who are just initially coming out
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: and like coming into themselves, and I was like, oh,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: I have decided to believe that that Rooney Mara is
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: making a really intelligent character choice, and that's what I've
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: decided to be. Sounds like me on the Paddington episode. Yes,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: I definitely see that read of it, and I hadn't
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: considered that before, so so thank you. I suppose where
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: I was coming from it is that to me? Like,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: as I said, there wasn't didn't feel like there was
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: that much chemistry on screen between the two of them,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: and I wondered if that had anything to do even
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: though I think they're both excellent actors like and I
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: do like Rooney Mara. I do think she's as we said,
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: social network. We've all seen it, and I do like
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: her and girl with the dragon tattoo and everything like that.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: But um yeah, I found her perhaps two withdrawn in
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: this movie. But I'm wondering if the lack of chemistry
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: had to do with them both being straight or at
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: least married to men. I don't know exactly how Runey
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: Mara and Kate Blanchett identified, but they're married to men,
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: So I'm wondering would there have been more chemistry, would
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: it have been like a hotter let being romp if
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: they queer women? Well, and potentially I think that that's
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: that's true, Um, I mean, and who knows, they've never
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: to my knowledge, have never come out one way or another,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: if anybody can correct me on that, But um yeah,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: I mean the problem is that, you know, with a
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: movie like that, or like movie like Disobedience or whatever,
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: these like big movies that we're seeing coming out that
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: actually are starring um, queer women, or which I'm called
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: what was the one this year with your girlfriend girlfriend?
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: The Favorite, which absolutely loved, Like you need are they
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: think that you need big star names and there are
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: just almost no queer females who are at that level
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: of their career like out at least out. So unfortunately,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: until either people start coming out or those queer women
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: become famous, we're not gonna see are available, but we
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: are are available and we have chemistry with women. Um,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: but yeah, I think um. In terms of going back
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: to the initial question about like how does this represent
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: queer women and queerness, it definitely checks a couple of
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: boxes in that you have like the lesbian ex girlfriend
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: who is now the best friend, Like that is a
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: thousand percent a lesbian truth, just like you break up
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: and then you're like, but I guess we're just besties now.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: And that's so immediately I was like, can do you
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: drive my current girlfriend across the country? She's like sure, fine,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: incredible accommodating. Yeah, Like it's just exactly so I was like, no, okay,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: um that and also, um, the sad reality of you know,
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: going back to the blank slate that is Rooney Mara,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: the sad reality of getting completely consumed by your first
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: girlfriend so that your entire life is about absolutely nothing
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: but that woman, are and wrote down. When I watched
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: it the second time, I was like, wow, if there was,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: this is going to sound very medicines Like the Bechtel
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: test is sort of a lesbian test. But if there was, like, uh,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: like a Bechtel test I somehow existed for just women
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: in a just woman world and was really for lesbians,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: she would fail it. I did because she because her
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: entire existence is about Carol. Granted the name of the
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: movie is Carol. Fine, we can, we can say that
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: this is a story, but like everything else just feels
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: so unimportant and uninvested in. I don't even I don't
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: believe her photography thing for one freaking minute. I'll be
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: honest with you, like, I don't. I just don't believe it.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: And it's like her whole everything is Carol, and she
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: just like, okay, whatever you say, you know, I just
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: I don't know anything really about her outside of that.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: So I was like, wow, if she were a guy,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: this would fail so so hard, and be so stereotypical,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: but I hate to say it that like a lot
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: of first girlfriend's situations are that way. So yeah, So
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: I thought that was actually horribly accurate. The way that
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: she talked about her photography career I thought was always
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, because she is kind of a very passive
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: character in some ways that I thought were like made
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: sense with the character and otherwise where I'm like no, what, no,
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: stand up for yourself a little bit, where like anytime
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: someone would bring up her photography should be like, I'm horrible,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: I'm not good, I don't have the camera. I've never
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: done it before, and it was just like you've been
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: doing it for years, like please, It's like if we
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: like I've like, actually i've only done one open mic,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm doing. I'm and then I
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: just like buried myself alive her moments where I'm just like,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: you've done this before, Relax, It's fine. Yeah. I had
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: a I have a quote from Kate Blanchett. She was asked,
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: I think it was last year maybe in about um
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: straight actors playing characters because it is like such a
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: conversation that you know it's out there, and she she
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: gave like a pretty direct answer, and when asked about
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Carol directly, she said, quote, I will fight to the
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: death for the right to suspend disbelief and play roles
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: beyond my experience. So that was like her direct statement
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: on straight actors playing queer characters. And I guess I
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: just wanted to get your opinions or thoughts on that.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: I don't disagree with that as an actor, to be honest,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: and that's probably it is an unpopular opinion in some
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: spheres right now, Um, I don't. I don't disagree with it.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: I think that there are limits to that, obviously, when
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: we're talking about like playing a different race or something
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: where especially when the when the role is written specifically
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: with a certain race in mind and has cultural references,
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: et cetera. That is a line obviously, but something like
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: with the queer characters. I just the problem is that
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: you can take this argument that people are making to
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: an extreme, so that actors are only ever allowed to
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: play what their experience is, and then what is acting?
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: You know, I think like and we can see that
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: being taken to that place by certain people and casting
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: and producers and stuff right now. Anyway, that said, I
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: understand trying to balance it so that you are getting
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: actors seen for roles that they hadn't been seen for before.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Like it just wasn't okay to be an out actor
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: for so long, and when you have only you know,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: straight people playing gay roles, people go, what what about
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: all of our queer actors? You know? And then queer
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: actors so for so long haven't been allowed to play
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: straight roles quote unquote when being out because no one
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: can see them as anything else but gay. But when
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: a straight actor plays gay, they're like, well yeah, yeah,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Like so that's that's where that is problematic and where
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: people need something needs to shift so that actors can
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: just be actors. You know. I think I'm still processing
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: my feelings on this and have been for like probably
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: a year now because it's come so much into the
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: forefront with people like Scarlett Johanson and the issue, and
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: I think I fall way more on the side of like, hey,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: let's not do that in terms of CIS actors playing
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: trans characters. That to me does feel more black and white,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: where it's like, hey, let's stop doing that. But then
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: but then that has forced me to be like, Okay, Lauren,
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: if that's your feeling on that, then does that translate
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: to you know, straight actors playing career actors. And ultimately,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: I think I do lean more towards what Nicola is saying,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: where it's like, no, that feels like a different it's
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: the same. Maybe it's the same, like ballpark, but it's
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: like a different look. I don't know baseball. It's like
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: right field, like it's a different part Funday night Light. Uh. Yeah.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: And also like I never want Rachel Vice to stop
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: playing queer characters, like please God, So I can never
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: firmly come down the side that I think for something
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: like Bad Woman, like let's all fucking support like the
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: fact that they actively look to cast a queer female,
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: like let's all support the funk out of that show.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: And like, yes, I'm so glad it's Ruby Rose. But
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: I think, like Nicole is saying, let's look to get
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: more of that. But I don't think it should be
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: an exclusive, should be a requirement. Yeah, I agree that
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: it becomes very very difficult not to mention that casting
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: starts to become extremely difficult. Well right now you literally
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: can't do it, Like what is Kristin Stewart gonna literally
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: play every fucking please, God, no you speaking of cardboard?
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: I just you can't do it right that. Actually it's funny.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: I thought of Kristin Stewart several times while watching in
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: this movie because I was like, this must be the
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: thing that everybody is like, well, she's there's a mystique.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, God, like give me personality. Mystique can
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: really I don't know, do youk is the only thing
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: boring people have? There's so many. Have you ever had
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: like an experience like that with someone where you're just like,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know what are they all about? Like what's
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: going on? And then we get to know them, You're like, oh,
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: they just they're bored. I think maybe I'm a runey
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: mari apologist because I think I think I fall for
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: that a lot. I think I'm in the traditionally in
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: the past, I'm working on all of this in therapy,
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: you guys taking care of it. But I think I
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: have been guilty of the like, oh that girl is mysterious,
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: and I'm like you got to know, and you're like,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: oh that girl is boring. So maybe I relate. I
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: feel like it goes one of two ways. You you're
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: mystique because you're either boring or you're fucked up. It's
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: like one, yeah, what a fun journey every time, or
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: or the strangers sucked up and yet still boring. I
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: don't see more of that. Yeah, we're all my fund
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: up boring people at I might be one of them.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Um, we need to take another quick break,
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: but we will be right back and we're back. Uh.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: Speaking of back, should we talk a little bit about
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: the back story of this. Yeah, let's talk. Let's talk
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: Patricia high Smith while we're at it. Let I did
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: not know that much. I knew, I knew her name,
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: and I knew I did not know she had written
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: this book, which was originally called The Price of Salt
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Um came out in ninety two. But I knew her
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: as the writer of the talented Mr Ripley. She was
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: like famous for being a psychological thriller writer. Yeah, she
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: also wrote the novel for Strangers on a Train. She's
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: a fascinating, complicated dare is a problematic yes? Um? Yeah,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: So she wrote this The Price of Sault under a
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: pseudonym Claire Morrigan two and then it was republished thirty
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: eight years later as Carol under Patricia Highsmith's own name,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: and then it was adapted into the film Carol that
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: we now know and are talking about, Um, bye bye,
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: and the woman who adopted it, Phyllis n G. I
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: think is as Yeah, I don't know how to say
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: her last name, but that the woman who adapted the
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: screenplay knew Patricia high Smith, and I think like the
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: last ten years of her life, um, which I think
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: is like kind of like a rare, rare success. Uh
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: and adaptation. But anyways, back to Patricia, Yes, Carol. Screenwriter
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Phyllis something like that described high Smith as a lesbian
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: who did not very much enjoy being around other women. Um.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: And this is something that you'll find a lot concerning
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: how high Smith was described and considered. Um, she seemed
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: to be a misogynist. She did not like other women.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: She basically would sometimes have sex with men just because
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: she enjoyed their company more her whole. I mean, there's
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of going. Well, the internalized misogyny is strong
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: with this one. Yeah. She was compared to being a
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: movie studio boss who would chase Starlett's speaking of This
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: movie was produced by the Weinstein Company. The first frame
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: you're like, she was also pretty racist. She was very
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: racist anti Semitic. So the problem, there's a lot of
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: problems like her. Uh the yeah that she was described
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: as quote a lesbian with a misogynist streak unquote, and
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: then there are a few people that are like she
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: was actually you know, like she struggled with a lot
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: of depression. There was a lot of mental illness going
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: on as well that seemed to get worse as she
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: grew older. A very complicated person. One thing I found
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: out about her that I just want to with the
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: class is that she had three hundred snails. Okay, so
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: she had three hundred snails and one time she went
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: to a party with a huge handbag full of one
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: hundred snails eating lettuce. And if I read that, I
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: was like that could so you like, did you ever
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: read an anecdote where you're like, that could be me
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: in forty years easily? Easily? I mean you had those leeches.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: I was like, she just like brought her snails out.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: There's your expression. You lead with your crazy. If you
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: can't handle me with my hundreds in the bag, you
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: don't deserve me. I mean, that's the lesbian trope. Though, right,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: just bringing a bunch of snails, the snails in a
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: bag thing, true. I mean, her Wikipedia page is just
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: it is fucking why it it's there like she's racist,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: she's misogynist. She wrote the first like lesbian novel ever,
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: and she has three hundred snails and you're just like,
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: what is I read it that she wrote the first
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: lesbian novel with a happy ending Yes sorry I should
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: have oh yeah, which I was definitely gonna comment on that. Actually,
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: how like it's a funny thing because throughout launching the
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: movie again and with an eye for Bechtel test kind
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: of stuff, I couldn't help but feel because it's true
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: that even though it is to the repeatedly two women
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: in a room talking more than two lines of dialogue
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: about things that aren't about a man, um so it
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: clearly passes the presence of a man. A man specifically
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: like looms over everything to the point where there are like,
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: with the exception of the last moment of the movie,
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: there are no enjoyable moments. It's like there's no moment
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: where you really can just let go. Even the even
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: the score does that right when they're having sex, it's
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: like like big like like scary, sort of like ominous
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: sounding music, you know which, So there's this cloud over everything,
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: and it definitely, um, that's sort of unfortunate trope of
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: of queer cinema or queer content where like they have
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: sex and then it all goes wrong, like immediately happens.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: I did like that they balked that a little bit
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: in the in the sense that they still had sex
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: again that night, so it was a little bit of
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: an f you. But then she leaves again the next day,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: so it's like until that last moment, the presence of
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: a man is hanging over every single thing that happens.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: And granted that is the time period, but I do
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: think that this film, I don't want to say it's problematic,
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: but it definitely still falls in that category of like, well,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't want to be a queer
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: person like that, like that's a it's a it's a
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: difficult old queer story. Yeah, well I was going to
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: say that, Um, yes, I guess this movie technically has
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: a happy ending because we're to understand that they end
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: up together, but at such a huge cost, where Carol
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: has to sacrifice so much her dadaughter, so I mean,
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: it's it's not that happy. Especially, I mean, we see
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: how much she loves her daughter, and then she has
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: to go into therapy to continue to see her daughter,
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: which is to see. I thought that was like, I
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: thought that she was calling a stop tall. I thought,
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: like the compromise that she offers is like, I can't
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: go against my own grant. I'm going to live my
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: life like I am insisting on visitation. But then she
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: only saw her daughter like once or twice. Yeah, but
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: that but my understanding is at the court or what not,
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: the court hearing whatever, with the stenographer, whatever the hell
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: that Yes, I thought that that happened like days before
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: she sees to rest. Oh, I guess we don't know
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: how much time has passed. I don't think so, because
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: they're already selling the house. She already has an apartment
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: and a job. Didn't happen in a couple of days.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: This has been a couple of months usually. I also,
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: I think I was because I read about Patricia Highsmith
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: before I watched the movie all the way through, and
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: it does seem like there are elements of Patricia Highsmith's
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: life that are included in this movie because she was
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: a Bloomingdale's girl, and and she was in therapy for
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: many years, essentially a version of gay conversion therapy that
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: she very much wanted to work. So I that was
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: how I read it, But I think that was just
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: because I had just finished reading all this about Patricia
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: Highsmith of like, they frame her sexuality as basically a
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: mental illness, and then you see her in therapy and like, oh,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: that doesn't seem good, but so not specific, I don't.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: I guess what I really like about this movie is
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: that both characters, both Terres and Carol, are like unapologetic
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: about their sexuality and they're not keeping it a secret
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: from at least the people around them. Like Richard knows
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: about her crush on Carol. Harge knows also Hard what
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: is that name? Hard Arch the whole first time I
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: saw also what is that name? Though? But um, so
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: Harge knows about Carol, And yes, at the end, she
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: says like, I'm not going to go my grain. Here's
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: my final offer. I want visitation rights. But yeah, I
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: mean she doesn't have custody of her daughter, hard soul custody,
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: and so we know that Hard just like a dysfunctional alcoholic.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: So her daughter is not better off because we see
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: Carol it. You know, she's a great mom and she
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: loves her daughter, and she brusses her hair so much.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: I was just like, if you have to clean up
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: your daughter's brush every day, my friend, your daughter is
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: going bold but hey, baldest woman in charge, true grendy
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: will someday be in charge. Um. But yeah, so, I
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: mean it makes me appreciate the era that we live
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: in now, which is still not great. But at least,
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: you know, homosexual audio isn't considered a mental illness anymore,
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: you know all that. So I like that they're unapologetic
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: about their sexuality, but it still comes at at a
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: great cost, especially for Carol and her daughter, So it does.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: And yeah, so it is hard to feel happy. I
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: didn't feel happy at the end of that movie. That's
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: for sure. It's not very uplifting. It's just not. But yeah,
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: I also, I mean, and again part of this goes
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: back like I will, I've promised I will cease and
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: desists soon on this point. But like I also look
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: at it into my for that girl, like a like
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: for her. I mean, like I look at you know,
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: the relationship with Abby, I totally understand, like that that
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: friendship and that closeness and all of that sacrificing for
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: that relationship I really get. And sacrificing just for who
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: you are, regardless of who you're with or if you're
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: with anybody, I totally get. But like for that girl also,
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: And I just have to say this because this is
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: sadly on on brand for lesbians. Um, but the like, oh,
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: we went on a two week trip together and then
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: we didn't speak and now do you want to move in?
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: Is like such a lesbian and that's just like normal.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: Oh god, well Carol, so much like I remember the
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: first time that I saw this in the theaters, I
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: remember being so cringe e about how like that first
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: scene where they have food and she's like, would you
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: like to visit me this Sunday? Like it's like, what
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: are you doing? You just learned you just asked her
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: first name like seconds before. So yeah, there's definitely there's
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: a lot of cringe worthy lesbian stereotype. I didn't feel
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: as predator worry is sort of like the predatory romance
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: that you see in like Debs, but there's still like
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: a huge power dynamic imbalance between the two of them
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: where Carol is much wealthier, she is older, and she's
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: more sexually experienced. And then she and and also in
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: in this movie, and this was like an adaptation change
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: that I when I like figured out that had been changed,
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, I don't really like that they
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: made her a virgin in this She not in the book. No,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: she had been having said she had been having unfifilling
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: sex with Richard, and like there was more context for it. Yeah,
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: And then I feel like they almost do that character
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: kind of a disservice by being like, you know, she's
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: just floating around like I don't know, and it's not
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: a Madonna horror thing, but that choice is just sort
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: of indicative of like washing that character and making her
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: even you know, because it's like if she not saying that,
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: if you're a virgin, you don't have any life experience,
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: but it just having that character have some experience going
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: into that relationship would have made me feel more comfortable
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: with the relationship happening, because you're like, the power dynamics
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: are a little off, and I mean we're sort of
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: led to believe that it's brought up a bunch of times,
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: even though she still has her own apartment in granted village,
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: but she's a shop girl. She's young, she can't really
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: afford to pursue her passion. Like she's in a very
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: very different position as Carol. And and I don't know,
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: I was trying to picture movies with I mean, there's
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: a ton of movies about hetero relationships where there's a
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: man who's much older wooing a much younger woman, and
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: this is not that movie, but there are elements of
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: that where it's like that should have been a discussion.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: And I feel like Abbey is the only one who
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: really brings it up. Is like she's so like she
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: is the most grounded, like she's fucking great. But I
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: will say with Carol Terrez, because I did watch it
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: through a twenty nineteen lens, it's like a hundred as
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: far as I could tell, it's fully consent based, like
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: she she's asking aggressively, but she doesn't do anything without
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: being like is this okay? Would you like to do this?
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: Like blah blah blah. And with the sex scene, it's
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: like Terres is the one who's like taking and it's
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: like never implied that they would have any reason to
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: feel unsafe around each other too, which is like makes
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: a huge difference. And as far as I could tell,
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: Carol never holds anything over to res in terms of like,
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: well I have more money than you, or I'm like
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: like she never like uses that like the imbalance of
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: power to her advantage. As far as I could it
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: just kind of unacknowledged. It's just like a thing that exists, right,
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It would just be nice to see
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: more representation in mainstream movies of queer women where it
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: wasn't such an imbalance of power. It would be nice
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: to see a movie about two queer women where no
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: one has to make a huge sacrifice. You know. It
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: would be nice to see more queer women of color.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: It would be nice to see more you know, trans
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: and non binary people in mainstream movie. And I think
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: that I've see people asking for a lot on on
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: queer Twitter, as it were, is like, hey, can we
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: get more movies where both women are already out and
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: that's not like realizing or comic terms is not an
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: element of the plot um And I think that would
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: be great that please. Indeed, I wanted to talk about how,
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: just briefly about how the men are kind of presenting
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: in this movie because each and every single male character
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: who we get to know even the slightest bit is horrible.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: Eric I kind of appreciated how the worst they were.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: I mean there was I don't know, yeah, what did
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: everyone think about the men? I just I was just like, yeah, fine,
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: Mr Football is mad. He what he's like often drunk,
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: He's usually full of rage and jealousy. He's very spiteful
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: when it comes to a bunch drunkenly following I think
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: one of the things and I and I am obviously
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: the minority in those, but I really like Kyle Chandler
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: as a writer. And I also loved Friday. It's like, yes,
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: it's so good if if anybody hasn't seen it water
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: and like I hate football, So it's not it's not
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: about that anyway, but partly where I think like the
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: disservice to the men in this movie, and also just
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: honestly the story in this movie is that we don't
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: get to see even a flashback and even in anything,
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: any part of Carol and Harje's relationships, so like it
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: is very difficult, I think, to imagine those two people
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: being together other than they're both wealthy and good looking.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: I guess, like I mean, really, it's very difficult to
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: imagine it because we see so little of any of
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: the love left between them, and I don't know I
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: would have liked to see because she says, like her
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: big last line is she's leaving that meeting or with
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: the loyal like the best best scene in the movie,
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: I think, but the exact perfect. She's so good, but
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: like she says something, you know, uh, then it will
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: get ugly or it'll get ugly and we're not ugly
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: people or something like that. It's like it's some something
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: along those lines, and I guess I just wanted to
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: be like, wow, I would have really liked to see
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: him not being ugly then at some point or and
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: like some semblance of like real good guy nous about
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: him that I can imagine, he asked, but isn't there
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: because you can see his face and he seems to
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: be coming to an understanding or he he seems to
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: be like, you're right, Carol, like but that's not who
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: he understood him to be previously he was completely like bullheaded,
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: and I kind of do I have sort of have
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: a different take again, Carol Apologist over here. But I well,
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: what I love about all the men in this movie
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: is they're like so oh fish, which to me is
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: like hilarious, like they all fall down and something like um.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: But I and I'm framing it in that era. I
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: don't think either of those guys are like Richard's a dick,
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: But I don't think either of those guys are like
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: super bad guys, Like I think this is a guy who,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: like his wife, has had at least one affair that
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: he knows about, Like this is a guy he never
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: I feel like in a different movie, we definitely would
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: have gone like a smack or like a puncher, because
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: it's the guys drunk and I remember watching it originally
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: that's where I thought that was going. But he's the
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: one who falls down, like he's definitely too handsome with her,
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: But I don't. I think he is shown to be
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: like this old fish, bumbling like this isn't how this
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: is supposed to work kind of guy. But I don't
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: think he's evil, even Richard. I don't think it is
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: like terrible, Like I love that line where he's like
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: you made me buy tickets, Like he's this dude it's like,
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: what the fuck, Like we were thick the moment that
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: I did really like, I was like, oh that she
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: kind of did him dirty on that one where he
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: was yeah, because she she's been saving up money to
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: go on vacation with him, and she's like, actually, I
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: just met this really kind of suck, like I do. Actually,
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: And I I often am the one who's feeling bad
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: for men in queer movies because sometimes I do think,
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: especially in lesbian films, they get like the short end
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: of the stick and are shown to be just like
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: these like bumbling idiot oaths like whatever. And I'm like,
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: and especially as like the resident bisexual in the room,
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: I'm like, come on, not all guys are like yeah,
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: like like this, you know, and it actually And I
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: also think that stories are more interesting when you have
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: more realistic portrayals of characters, so that people aren't painted
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: as just bad or good and there is a little
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: bit more ambiguity, because it makes it more difficult for
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: the characters to make decisions when you know you're dealing
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: with two good people versus one good and one bad.
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: You know. Um, So I think that they could have
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: done a little bit better of a job with the
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: men in this making them slightly more multidimensional. The one
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: guy who I really liked, the guy with the accent
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: who like, yeah, the one who tries to Danny's like
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: the one, but of course because he's like the film kid,
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like production, I don't think
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: we see enough that really exists in real life where
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: it's like the guy who's into the girl and like
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: tries to kiss her, and then it's like, oh my bad,
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: you're queer, you're not into it, Like no, I'm going
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: to be your best friend and help you paint your partner.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: And he's just like so chilling cool, and he's like,
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: I think you really liked this lady, and she's like, no,
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: I don't. And if he's like come on, girl, he's
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: like a really good dad. But also he knew that
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: she had a boyfriend, Richard at the time and tried
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: to kiss her. Yeah, he's he's shy friends and to
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: like yeah, but I think once he realizes, like, and
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: that's a problem in and of itself, he should treat
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: her like a person, even if she's straight and not
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: into him. But at least once that guy realizes like, oh,
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: she's not into it. He's not like but I forever
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: Like he's like he helps her get a job at
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: the time, Yeah, yeah, he's he does come through for
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: her quite a bit, that he should have tried to
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: kiss her appropriately fair. I even afterwards was like, wait,
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: does she have a boyfriend? Because she makes so like
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: blase and noncommittal about Richard that like he probably is
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: like are they even dating? I mean, I, as the
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: audience member, was like, are they even dating? Richard? Thinking
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: that they're dating, which totally happened, you know, yeah, yeah,
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: were You're just like are you I don't Yeah. Something
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: about the Harsh character that I think that that, again
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: was a weird adaptation thing because as far as I
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: can tell, in the book, he has mentioned, but he's
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: barely in it. He's not a main character at all.
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: So he his character's part was really beefed up for
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: the movie. And I mean, it's it's weird. It's kind
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: of like what everyone was saying. It seems like the
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: fact he's not like a monster out right. But I don't, like,
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: I don't understand why as much as I love Mr
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: Football's pratfalls and being like why you not love me
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: no more? Like being pissed and litigious whatever male villain
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: tropes are employed there. I like you very if you're
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: gonna like beef up that part and you want to
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: make it like a nuance complicated movie, show that he's heartbroken,
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: show that he's confused, like show that he doesn't like
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: in less of a broad strokes way, because that almost
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: felt like out of step with what the movie was
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: trying to do with different relationships, where like Caroline Abbey's
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: friendship is so nuanced and subtle and cool, and like
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: most of the ways that people relate in this movie
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: seemed to be going for that subtlety. But it's weird,
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: like hardest character is like kind of broad for this
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: movie where he's just like mad alcoholic husband, And I mean,
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: I don't even know where I fall on it, because
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I mean, I just if they were going
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: to use him on screen that much, I wish it
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: had been in a way that was a little more
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: nuanced in servicing the story instead of just him becoming
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: a litigious villain. Yeah, I agree with, especially if she's
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: going to suggest at the end that that's not who
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: he is deep down. And yeah, like you were saying
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: Nichols is like, well, we've only seen him drunk and angry. Yeah,
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: And I mean, like I get the it seems as
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: though what they were going for maybe um with the
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: men in these women's lives, right, So, Richard and Hard
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: is that when men are heartbroken, they get angry, like
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: and that is how they deal with being heartbroken is
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: through anger and not vulnerability. I mean because like he shows,
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: Hard shows up at Abbey's and like when he has
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: nothing left to say, when Abbey's like stone walled him
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: and been like she's not here, and he's like, but
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: I love her, and she's like, I can't help you
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: with that. And I think that those simple two lines
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: say everything about the men in this movie in so
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: many ways, where it's like it is not the women's
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: responsibility to cater to the men's feelings, you know, like
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: you guys have fallen in love of your own accord.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: Sometimes that works out and sometimes it doesn't, and we
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: can apologize for the things where we legitimately are wrong
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: and have hurt you, but also then like it's up
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: to you to be a big boy and take care
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: of yourself without being destructive. And I think both of
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: those men are coming from a point of view where
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: they're like if A, then B. They're like, well, if
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: I love you, then that you must like those guys
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: gets a feeling of ownership and entitlement. And I mean,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties speak about an era where men
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: did not know how to process their feelings, like we're
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: not encouraged to. I mean, that's not even their fault entirely,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: you know, they were not That was weakness. So yeah, iusly,
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: I wish it were a little clearer that. Like in
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: the book, it seems like it's clearer that the whatever villain,
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: if there is a villain of this story, is the
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: culture that they're living in. It doesn't allow them to
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: be here they are. But in this movie, I feel
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: like they almost take the shortcut of being like it's
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: the guys. That's a great point. It's such an insular movie.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: It's one of those movies where it's like is this
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: a stage flight where it's just like you don't really
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: get a sense of the outside world at all. It's like,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: that's my ride, I got to ride a giant drama.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: Like everything that we're saying about, oh at that time,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: it's just because we know that, Like you don't see
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of like the outside world pressuring this and
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: that it's like we're inferring that because all of us
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: know what it was like to be queer in ninety
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: But you're right that it's it is one of those
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: super insular movies where we're just really seeing the characters
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: we're seeing and there's not a lot of like different
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: people running around being like I don't like Wars and
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: then they just like cross the street and we never
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: see him again. People just did that same players talking
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: about how they don't like Career Evil. Um, it is
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: basically just like it's a it's a close knit sort
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: of film. So everything that that we've been saying about,
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: like oh, the time period and stuff, we're not really
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: shown that. We just we know that or we hear
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: also like everybody in this film has extremely fine tuned gaitar,
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: which I like don't understand. I mean, Richard, like Richard
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: has really no reason to believe that Terres has a
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: rush on Carol, but he like picks it up on
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: it right away, says it like it's not a thing,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: you know, like it is. It is very weird. And
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: then like like every random lesbian the trees runs into
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: is like staring at her from across the room because
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: they're all like I smell you, like like random, oh
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: my god, I know they clogged her, like yeah yeah.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: And also everybody who has gaydar just stairs like is
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: like just blatantly there that's my move. But I mean
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: it's it is a little bit. It's a little silly
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: and on the nose obviously, but also because like there
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: was a whole code. It was like the handkerchief road
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: I think yeah for gay men where you would like
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: wear a certain color handkerchief in your back pocket to
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: show the a you were queer, but like be what
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: like type of queer you are and what you were
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: into so other men could pick up on it. So
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: it's like guys, like, if gaydar were really as good
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: as it's shown in Carol, no one would have needed
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: the handkerchief coat. It's just it was a little we're
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: gonna have to develop it them because they're clothes don't
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: have pockets that the glass ceiling. It was like, we
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: simply cannot carry the unfair standards of that are placed
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: on women. Did you ever have this, uh that system
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: in high school where the color of like rubber bracelet
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: you were wearing was like indicative of whether you were
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: a virgin or not. That was a big thing I
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: heard about that. I feel like that was I thought
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: that was like an urban legend, but maybe not like
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: that was a news story where they're like, they're called
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: bracelets kids. There was I would wear. I would wear
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: a red bracelet my software, which you should never wear
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: the braislet that means you're a virgin. But I didn't
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: wear that. And then I, even when I was still
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: a virgin, I swapped it out because I'm like and
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: then every day I would look at my bracelet and
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: be like, wow, that's so intensive. There was. There was
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: an intense bracest when I was in high school. I uh,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: the cartilage of my right ear pierce and everyone's like,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: if you get your right your pierce, that means you're gay.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: And that's like what, I've never heard that before. But
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: I also didn't care. I was like, I don't give
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: a funk what people think my sexuality is. But um, yes,
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: there's been codes. I guess what I enjoyed about this
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: movie because a lot of the the tension does end
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: up because there's no sort of external cultural tension in
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: terms of like society hate square people in this movie
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: that we see the tension then derives from largely the
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: male characters in the movie and the fact that they're
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, and this is not to say that all
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: men are horrible, but since most movies are about how
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: awesome men are and how freaking cool they are, and
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: also movies where men are the focus, if there is
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: a female character, she's often presented as an obstacle in
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: some way, much of the way men are presented as
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: obstacles in this movie. So it was kind of nice
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: to see that switch, sure, but I like, yeah, I
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: don't know. It's like, at the end of I'm just
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: going to be split on on this because in one way,
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: I'm like, it's kind of lazy movie shorthand to just
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: be like, this character symbolizes all oppression everywhere and most
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: people are actually really chill. But it's also like, I
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: I don't dislike the man Haiti tropes that are employed
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: by this movie through those characters because you're like, well,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: you don't really get to see them very much. So yeah,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: I think for me, I wrote, at times it's fun
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: and at other times devastating and uncomfortable to see men
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: constantly barking up the wrong treeze in this movie that
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: way generally generally, even like that's it is that you
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: go back and forth and be like, ha, that's funny
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: to be like, I don't feel good. Richard especially is
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: such a dufe Like that part where Carol is picking
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: up Terres and Richard's all like, Richard, hard not to
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: meet you, and and Carols like, oh, speaks very highly
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: of you, and he's like, oh, well that's swell, and
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: he's immediately like talking about a beard. Yeah, he is
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: the guy from Obvious Child too, Yeah, like obscured by
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: a hat. For most of time, that's all I can
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: see in those is like that, and the guy from Girls,
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: and I'm like perfect casting truly, Yeah, he's peaked casting. Yeah.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: Here's something we don't often see is women eating in
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: a movie which we see women eat quite a bit,
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: and we also see women driving in a way that
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: it's not like them, like I just accidentally got on
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: the freeway and I'm gonna crash, So I think it's
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: not like correct exactly. This movie normalizes period peace, that's right. Yeah,
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: So it normalizes women driving and eating. So that's my
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: hot take. Another point I saw being made about this.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: It was like the cinematography, which we've I mean, it
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: is so beautiful that you're sleeping, but the like absence
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: of perceived male gaze this movie, which is funny because
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: it's the cinematographer is a man. As the director, Yeah,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: Edward Edward Lachman, who has a pretty stellar record of
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: removing or at least I don't know, compartmentalizing the male
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: gaze for the movies he's worked on. He also did
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: the He did other Todd Haynes movies. He did Far
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: from Heaven Um, he did the Virgin Suicides. He did
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: a bunch of like very female focused movies that concerned
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: like women's bodies. And I don't know, I mean did that.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: I mean that worked for me. I thought it was
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: very There is nothing that I felt was like objectifying
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: or like overly you know, like sexualizing women. You know,
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: we see the sex scene, but it felt very tastefully done. Yeah,
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: I loved it. And you know how you were saying, like, oh,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: you see in the car, like the random shot of
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: the steering wheel or like that kind of thing. I
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: think and again I haven't read the book, but I
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: know that the book it's based on is it's the
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: third person, but it's all from her as this point
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: of view, and I think that this movie is like
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: shot almost entirely. Certainly any scenes she's in I read
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: as her point of view, which is why I think
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: it's like you get these little chunks of like she's
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: looking at like there's a lot of like Cate Blanchet's mouth,
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: Like she's looking at her lips, or she's looking at
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: her hand. Are these things which to me I read
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: as her like sort of discovering her attraction for her.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I thought it did a great job as
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: being like, this is what this woman's experience is, and
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: you're seeing like little glimpses of it. And the color
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: palette was really reflective of that too, because it was
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: largely red and green, which also was helpful because it
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: was around Christmas time, so you had that, but it
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: was like red, green and gold sometimes as well, but
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: like red and green were primary, and Cate blanche it
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: was like almost always wearing something red um and certainly
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: in the first half of the movie when like Ruoney
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: mar Is discovering her um and then like Abby and
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: Rooney Mara and and then sometimes Cape Blanchet two are
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: often wearing green or are are framed in green. So
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: for you know whatever, more of like what is it
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: like a obsession or there's like but there's a danger
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: Green is also a danger color, yeah, to which I
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: think was pretty cool. Like when you see Abby pull
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: up and she's got the green on, and you're like, oh,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: danger because really she does represent like a very dangerous
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: part of Cape Blanchet's life. Yeah, So yeah, anyway, hopefully,
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: but I mean, yeah, the lack of male gay is
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: from the cinematographer. The director is a man, Todd Haynes,
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: but he's considered, you know, he's an out gay director.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: He's considered a pioneer of the new queer cinema movement
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: that emerged in the early nineties. Um, the screenwriter is
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: a queer woman. A lot of the producers are women,
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: also Harvey and Bob Weinstein. Oops, but when you have
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: a movie that's coming largely from either a female or
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: queer perspective or both, we're not surprised that it's handled
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: a bit better. And and then adapting from from a
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: book that was also written by a queer woman, where like,
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: we have so many examples I always like jumped straight
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: to carry of, like, why is this like very famous
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: movie depicting women so poorly? It's oh, because uh straight
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: man was writing about teenage girls, and that was adapted
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: by uh screenwriter who is a straight man writing about
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: teenage girls seen through the lens of a straight man
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: leering at teenage girls, And that's why it's fucked up
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: like this, this movie manages to more or less avoid
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: most of that. And and then I think sort of
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: with the cinematography, they it's like if you had to
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: choose male cinematographer, I mean I would personally be like, oh,
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: wouldn't it have been great if there was a female
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: cinematoxxer in this um or a queer female cinematographer. But
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: if if there had to be a man, this seems
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: like this was the man for that job. So that's
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: how I felt about the director too. Yeah. Yeah, And
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: it also took so long for this movie to get made.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: It took twenty almost twenty years. Yeah, the film rights
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: were required in it had been in development since nine
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: seven was the first Titanic years I know. And instead
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: they're released in the Daddy's Home Year, so that yeah,
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, it took so long to get the movie
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: funded properly, to get the right names attached, and just too,
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: I think, just the matter of waiting it for it
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: to seem like a quote unquote safe movie to have
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: a fairly wide release, and so you know, it's it's
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: impressive that it ended up the way it did and
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: that it happened at all. I mean, that's eighteen years
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: waiting to make a queer like, it's crazy. I read
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: on IMDb that at some point it was like they
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: were maybe going to try to do it like in
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: the nineties sixties and who not Rita Hayworth, Like someone
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: was attached, but that was gonna be a huge thing.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: And then I read and this sounds like a sketch,
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: but I read that a treatment was written where the
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: name and gender were changed and it was Carl and
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: it was and I was like, because kin edit IMDb.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: So I was like, I need to do more research
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: on this, but I want to believe that happened, because
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: that fucking table that it would have been turned into
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: a gay mail story or a heater and it was
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: just like a treatment that was written and like this
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: and it never went But I'm like, how did someone
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: spent time? What would that story even be? And if
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: Carols boring would have been unwatchable. But that ex told
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: me when I read that, I honestly I believe I
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: believe it. I thought it's true. I want to be
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: the internew had to write coverage on the treadman of
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: carl Or or the man that had to confidently pitch
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: it to Patricia Highsmith and be like, listen, I love
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: what you're doing. I see what you're doing. What about Coral.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: She just throws the snail at him. It's like, get
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: out of my office. One of them as well, Hey,
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: do you think this movie passes the Bechdel test or not?
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: What does? Very much? I don't think there's a single
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: scene of two men talking without a woman there. I was.
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: I was half paying attention for that. So there's scenes
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: with multiple men in the room, but there's always, at
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: least I think there's always a woman involved. Yeah, and
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: then yeah, there's a lot of different combinations of characters
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: talking the past, the test between Caroline Tarez, between Caroline Abbey,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: Abbey and Tarez, So yeah, you see a lot of
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: different combinations of lots of options for scene study class indeed,
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: because that's like what the Bectel test means to me
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: in my life. It's like going back to college and
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: being like, why can't have found any scenes with two
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: girls to work on? And you're like, because acting school
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: is you know women. Anyway, it's great, we have to
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: use the three guys over and over and over again
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: in class because there are no scenes for all of us.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: This is also another fairly rare example of a movie
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: that passes the Vito Russo test. And if you're not
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: familiar with that, what that is, listeners. It is a
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: test that requires that a film must contain a character
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: who is identifiably lgbt Q. Plus the character must not
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: solely or predominantly be defined by their sexual orientation or
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: gender identity. So, in other words, they need to be
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: made up of the same sort of like unique character
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: traits that are commonly used to differentiate straight characters from
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: one another. And Cape Blanchet right, photographer, she's a photographer, uh,
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: And the queer character must be tied into the plot
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: in such a way that their removal from the story
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: would have a significant impact. So basically they just matter. God,
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: although I do, I mean Nicole. I think that it
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: was really interesting that how like there is no Bectel
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: like or Bechtel Wallace test for queer women, that she
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: is so defined by her relationship, which I agree is
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: very first relationship e and like, you know, just thinking
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: about anyone's first relationship is cringe e U. But that
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: that is like a good like they I'm glad that
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh, she also has you know, like she
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: has this aspiration. She will not advocate for herself for it,
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: and she's not very good, but you know she's she's
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: going for it, getting better, she's better. But it's also
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: like the one moment where I really were I was like,
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: I'll funk all this, like when I because because I
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: was like, because I in my head, I was like,
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: well I did give her photography, I guess, even though
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: she seems only mildly passionate about it. Um Like the
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: one moment where it really all came crashing down is
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: when what's his name, her friend Danny is helping her
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: paint and he's like, you really should do a show
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: and says it twice, and she's not only like oh no,
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: you know I'm not really good. She's like no, and
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: you're like, why are you so Like she's like I
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: don't want to know, and you're like, okay, so I
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: guess you don't care that it happens off screen, but
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: at some point she does, you know, but it happens.
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: She's also just painting. Did you guys noticed that one?
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: You've never you know, sweetheart, It's so funny to see
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: actor like actors betray their richness on screen and just like,
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: that's what are you doing? Yes? Anyways, I I do
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: agree that, like, definitely one care during this movie is
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: more defined by a romantic relationship than Yes, let's write
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: the movie on our nipple scale zero to five nipples.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: Based on its portrayal and treatment of women, I think
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: I'm going to give it a four. It's nice that
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: you have a story about queer women. They are certainly
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: the focus, they are driving the narrative. The one character,
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: as we've discussed, is not that well defined and characterized,
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: but you know, it's it's still better than most of
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: the female characters we see in any given movie. So
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: there's that. Um, it is such a white movie. It
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: is extraordinarily white, and it does take place in New
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: York for most of it, so there's really not And
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: it's like, I it always drives us anytime New York
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: is in a movie and everyone in New York is white,
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: and then people are like it's a buried piece. You're
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: just like, no, you're a director, you're a writer, like
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: you could you can include people. Especially when she's at
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: that party at like her friend Phil's Plight. I was
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: watching the people on the street walking by, was like,
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: is one of them not going to be? And I
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: was like, they're the party And then also at the
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: Bloomingdale's type place too, like why not. Yeah, there aren't
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: that many crowd scenes, but the ones that are still
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: almost entirely white people, there could have been opportunity, Yes, definitely.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it could have been better representation wise,
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: but it's a step in the right direction. You know,
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: we talked about how few mainstream movies there are about
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: queer people, and you know, hopefully this at least in
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: some way helped pave the way for more to be
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: seen down the road, because the more we see, the
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: more it's normalized, and more representation is what we're always striving. Four.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: So I'm gonna say, four nipples, and I will give
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: two to Kate Blanchet. I will give to to Rooney
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: Mar's performance in another movie. Yeah yeah, all right, great, Wow,
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: So I do truly like her. I'm so on the
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: fence about so many elements. I'm also going to go
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: with four, uh for for many of the same reasons.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it is in spite of sort
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: of the the stuff that we've unpacked as being either
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: like a little off or just straight up confusing, it
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: is I think, you know, it's generally great that this
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: movie because especially and this is like something we didn't
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: we don't really talk about a lot, but the fan
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: base of this movie has grown so much since it's
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: been available on Netflix. And I was there was like
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: a long piece reported in Them a couple of months
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: ago about the huge young fan base that Carol has
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: built um since being on Netflix. And just not only
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: is like representation important important, but like accessibility uh two,
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: movies like this are so important because this is an
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: art house movie and you know, mostly the majority of
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: people at this table did not see it, uh in
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: in small you know, movie theaters. In so the fact
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: that it's available to young people and too. I mean
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: to everyone, Um, if if you have you know, your
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: excess Netflix password is a really cool thing. And and
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: so in spite of its shortcomings, I'm glad that it's uh,
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: it exists, and that it's accessible, and that it, for
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: the most part, you know, was adapted responsibly and by
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: the right people. So I'll go for as well. I'll
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: give to to Kate Blanchett. I'm gonna give my other
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: two to Abby. Oh yeah, yeah, I would say four
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: is well. I mean my my issues with Rooney Mara. No,
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna three. I don't even get name and dropped
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: it because I started thinking about it more and I
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: was like, I can't can't. Um, yeah, I mean to
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: definitely the Cate Blanchet always maybe all three no, but
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: one to one to Abby. Um. And I agree with
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: everything that that you guys have said. I don't even
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: have much more to add. Um. I just simply wish
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: that Rooney Mara's character had been more than a blank
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: slate who is imprinted upon by the one person that
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: she's attracted to. So that's all I love this movie.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: I'm not awesome at Separate. I'm not the best of
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: being objective when I really love something, and I recognize
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: that about myself. I feel like going into this, I
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: maybe would have said four and a half, but I
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: after hearing all this, I am going to say for
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: I barely had an issue with with Rooney Mara's character.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: May be reading it in terms of like coming into
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: contact with so many women who are first coming out.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: I was looking at it through that kind of a
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: lens and being like, oh, I bet if we saw
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: this character a year from now, like she would be
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: more filled in. But again, yeah, it's true that that
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: is that's my brain screenwriting and directing and stuff, and
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: I respect that. Um. When I love this movie and
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: I do think it's super hot, and I will not
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: apologize for that, I will give my nipples. I will
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: give one to Cape Blanchet, one to Ruoney Mara, and then,
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: even though she's not in this movie, I'm giving to
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: to racial Advice just because she was my girlfriend and
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: I love her just because her presence is leaning over
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: our conversation and I would like to throw her some nipples.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: We'll have to get the both of you back on
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: to do the favorite. I love like, I love, love,
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: love love love that movie just really quick I think
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: you know and I know that we have all had
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 1: different takes on Mr Football in this movie. Consider Alfred
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: Molina in that part playing Cape Lunch's husband. I'm horny.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: Although maybe they just needed them to not have as
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: much chemistry and so that's why Alfred Millina couldn't do it.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: Probably the chart with everyone sure, how many nipples does
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: three D snails have? Oh god, let me look, okay,
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: do zero? Just because there were no nipples besides hers
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: ever in that apartment? Like it feels like with three
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: hundred snails, Like snails do not have nipples. So I
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: can tell you that, anybody, how do you get a
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: girl back to you? The keys in the door? You're like, oh,
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: one one thing before I should tell you? The Google
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: results for do snails have nipples? Are wild? I don't
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: recommend them. Well, thank you so much. Right on that note, Um,
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: where where can we find you? Online? Plug away? I
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: am at Nicole Patient on Twitter and Instagram. I am
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: at Lauren Flans on Twitter. Um, that's the best Lauren
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: underscore Flans on Instagram. But I'm not on Instagram. Not
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: Lauren's a Twitter Twitter person on a Twitter person and
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: our podcast is at Coming Out Pod on Twitter and Instagram.
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: Give it a listen wherever you find podcast. Thank you
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: guys so much for having us all so much fun.
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being here. You can follow us on
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: the social media platforms at Bechdel Cast. We've got our
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: Matreon aka Patreon five bucks a month to bonus episodes
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: Can't go Wrong, uh so. And and this month on
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: the Patreon we're doing uh Knocked Up and Obvious Child
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: speaking to Jake Lacey Heavy Mup on the past. Yes
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: it's pregnancy June on the Matreon inspiring uh so. So.
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: You can check us out there. We have our merch
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: store at t public dot com slash the Bechdel Cast.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: We're getting some new designs in there soon, but you
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: can get your Feminism is the Law Now shirt. Also
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: for Pride, queer icon icon, non binary icon there we've
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: got We've got them all. Check out the store, um
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: and we'll talk to you. Yeah, yes, see you later. Bye.
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: By Football