Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Strictly Come Hamster - Season 3A (featuring Tim Burrows & Frazer Gregory)

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Strictly Come Hamster - Season 3A (featuring Tim Burrows & Frazer Gregory) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:34
  Oh, I do not fear the Thunder, you superstitious, dark, dodging
• 0:40
  decadence. Hear me, doka ho.
• 0:42
  Except from me the promised defeat of your cringing servant
• 0:47
  Fraser Gregory. Or else I challenge you.
• 0:50
  Descend to Earth and save him. How dare you.
• 0:57
  Woe to the fall of Troy. Welcome back to Strictly.
• 1:01
  Come hamster. My name is Joe Ford and since I
• 1:06
  haven't done this for about a month now, which is very unusual
• 1:10
  for me and Ross, I'm not going to do any more work on hand you
• 1:13
  straight over to my Co host, Rod Brown.
• 1:15
  Hello, Rod. You do that anyway, Joe.
• 1:17
  Hello. How are you doing?
• 1:20
  Not too bad. Thank you very much.
• 1:21
  It has been a while, hasn't it? It has.
• 1:22
  Been a long while yeah and I'm suffering the after effects of
• 1:25
  COVID so apologise if the voice is a little bit deeper and I
• 1:29
  start croaking. Next year, as ever, don't worry.
• 1:32
  But yeah, here we go. Last time we recorded We're in
• 1:34
  the heat of Summer, believe it or not, we covered Series 3 with
• 1:37
  David Tennant and now we're back tonight with the 1st 6 episodes
• 1:41
  of season 3. You'd almost think we planned
• 1:43
  these things a slight tonal. Shift however.
• 1:47
  But there isn't much difference between them.
• 1:48
  Think about it. Galaxy 4 and 42 both feature a
• 1:52
  planet that threaten the destruction of our heroes.
• 1:55
  You've got a Doctor Light adventure in Mission to the
• 1:57
  Unknown, as you had in Blink. Oh.
• 1:59
  You do. Then you've got a larger than
• 2:00
  life historical with which is played pretty much for laughs.
• 2:03
  You've got myth makers. You've also got Shakespeare
• 2:06
  code. Then you've got a madcap Dalek
• 2:08
  venture where anything's possible.
• 2:10
  Then in the massacre, Harmful plays a dual role, much like
• 2:13
  Tenon does in human nature. And finally, the Ark features a
• 2:16
  piss poor monster that everyone takes the piss out of, bit like
• 2:19
  Lazarus experiments. So yeah, it's not actually that
• 2:22
  very much different. My God, well done.
• 2:25
  How long did it take you to put all that together?
• 2:28
  Not that long. The last four weeks.
• 2:30
  The last four weeks, Yeah. So let's get into it.
• 2:33
  And to help sort out our invisible visions from our
• 2:36
  invisible refusions and even our invisible doctor, we're joined
• 2:41
  tonight by two dropsical old camp followers.
• 2:44
  Sorry. I mean, two barbarian horse
• 2:46
  worship. There's no sorry.
• 2:48
  Two light footed princelings. No, that's still wrong. 2
• 2:52
  special guests, one of them is a returning guest who last time he
• 2:56
  was here undermined the whole principle of the podcast.
• 2:59
  So it's really great to have him back again.
• 3:02
  USP. Remember.
• 3:03
  Yeah, tell me about it. And the other is a hamster
• 3:06
  Newie. He's a man that knows more about
• 3:08
  missing episodes than Joe knows about Dicks.
• 3:11
  And trust me. I assume you know a lot then,
• 3:17
  Tim. I was going to say, trust me,
• 3:19
  that is stiff competition. Well done.
• 3:22
  Between us. We're going to decide which
• 3:24
  story is going to be lifting that famous location Glitter
• 3:27
  Bowl, and which is going to be abandoned like companions in
• 3:30
  dialect. Master plan, have you?
• 3:33
  Have you placed the order for the recursion glitter ball yet?
• 3:36
  I haven't yet. We're.
• 3:36
  Halfway through this now we are. Halfway through, yeah.
• 3:39
  We'll have to materialize at some point.
• 3:41
  Well, we've got one. We've got 1 finalist in Colin,
• 3:45
  but we're way off the rest. Yeah.
• 3:46
  OK. So let's get straight into it
• 3:50
  and welcome tonight's guest. Tim, as the newbie, would you
• 3:53
  like to introduce yourself? Well, I am literally speechless.
• 4:02
  Gosh. Well, what an honour to be here.
• 4:04
  And what an introduction that is.
• 4:06
  That is quite the most introduction introduction I've
• 4:09
  ever had. It don't care how much, don't
• 4:12
  worry. Thank you very much.
• 4:14
  Yes, hello everyone. My name is Tim and I do a
• 4:16
  podcast about the missing episodes of Doctor Who.
• 4:20
  Which is bloody marvellous, can we just say?
• 4:23
  It is the most detailed look at that subject matter that I've
• 4:27
  ever heard. How much work goes into one
• 4:30
  episode of that? Well, it depends on what the
• 4:39
  material is that you have to go for and who's doing the work.
• 4:43
  I don't know. It takes a couple of weeks to
• 4:45
  prep part time and a good day at it.
• 4:48
  And then and then as well as you may or may not know the editing.
• 4:53
  I absolutely hate the editing, but we basically talk for hours
• 4:58
  and then I pick the peanuts out of the poo and then try and get
• 5:01
  a good production together. So we try and capture
• 5:04
  everything. But yeah, a little bit of work
• 5:06
  and a little bit of prep. And thankfully my guests do more
• 5:10
  work than I do. And yeah, it's, it's, it's quite
• 5:15
  successful and it's a lot of, it's a lot of fun to do.
• 5:19
  And I'm very gratified when people say nice things about it.
• 5:22
  So thank you very much. I see, you know, because I, I
• 5:24
  keep an eye on the sort of the Apple charts.
• 5:27
  When you guys drop an episode, you shoot straight up into the
• 5:30
  top five the next day straight away.
• 5:33
  So people are, I know people are definitely listening as well.
• 5:36
  And then we disappear for six months.
• 5:38
  Well, well, I get on with real life if.
• 5:41
  You rolled in some great. Yes, but I, I think, I think the
• 5:45
  key is that I've picked an easy subject and missing episodes are
• 5:52
  catnip to fans of a certain age. And you know, we've all
• 5:58
  experienced rumors that RIP through fandom like Tinder Dry
• 6:05
  grassland, and everybody wants that.
• 6:07
  I'm, I'm basically trading on people's hope.
• 6:11
  And you know, you could do a, you could put out 10 minutes of
• 6:17
  white noise and call it Doctor Who, the missing episodes,
• 6:19
  podcasts and it would do pretty well.
• 6:22
  So yes, I am cautioned by that in that, in that I've been very
• 6:26
  fortunate to see a gap in the market where years ago we said,
• 6:30
  let's just talk through the missing episodes and it's done
• 6:34
  really well. But yes, we're back in
• 6:37
  production and knocking stuff out as we speak at the time of
• 6:42
  at the time. Really hungry because that Omni
• 6:44
  rumour thread on Gallifrey base is basically a new life form
• 6:49
  now. It's bloated and swollen out of
• 6:52
  all proportions. Well yes, it is on part
• 6:56
  1,000,000 and it's still, it's still tickling along.
• 6:59
  It's not an Omni rumour thread, it's the missing episodes
• 7:01
  thread. But those events of 2013 have
• 7:07
  lived long in the memory and basically those events of 2013.
• 7:10
  You know why I'm in fandom really.
• 7:14
  And all my friends are from discussing those events in 2013
• 7:19
  that I have in Doctor Who fandom and the podcast spawned from
• 7:23
  that. Ultimately, because on the
• 7:25
  quiet, I'm trying to prove or disprove those rumors once and
• 7:30
  for all. Even though you know it's a bit
• 7:33
  dead in the water. But that's where it all comes
• 7:35
  from. Funnily enough, that Omni rumor
• 7:38
  it's got. A lot to answer for.
• 7:40
  It's got a lot to answer but yes, it's an absolute honour to
• 7:44
  be here and, and I am, I am very relaxed about being here because
• 7:50
  I knew my prep would have to be very minimal because the other
• 7:54
  guest can talk for England. What a beautiful segue.
• 8:01
  And we pass over to Mr. Fraser, Gregory Fraser.
• 8:05
  Welcome back. Hi everybody, my name is Fraser
• 8:09
  Gregory. I don't have a podcast of my
• 8:12
  own. I just come on to other people's
• 8:13
  podcasts. I as well.
• 8:17
  So I'm going to be quiet now. I very much doubt that.
• 8:26
  OK, so before we get into the stories themselves, should we
• 8:29
  have a quick chat about the half season?
• 8:31
  Just gives you general overview feelings before we get into it.
• 8:34
  Tim first six stories of series Season 3.
• 8:39
  Well, I don't want to reveal my hand and my feelings about too
• 8:45
  much of the season so far, but for me it is the most
• 8:51
  interesting season half season in the entire run of classic
• 8:57
  Doctor Who because there's a shake up behind the scenes.
• 9:03
  You've got a grumpy man being put in charge who doesn't want
• 9:06
  to be there and him whiles who's well in charge of things by the
• 9:15
  myth makers doesn't want to do Daleks master plan.
• 9:18
  And then they get a good couple of months where they do what
• 9:21
  they want to be doing, completely change the texture of
• 9:27
  the show and do things which aren't necessarily good fodder
• 9:32
  for a very young audience. But from this distance of 60
• 9:38
  years, and also with the added spice of not knowing what much
• 9:43
  of it looks like, I find it totally fascinating.
• 9:47
  I find it absolutely enthralling about about what was going on,
• 9:52
  why they made certain decisions, why they kill off one or two
• 9:57
  people now and then in season 3 first half.
• 10:00
  I just think it's absolutely fascinating.
• 10:02
  I, I, it's my favorite half season of Doctor Who.
• 10:06
  So you picked well, inviting me on this.
• 10:08
  I'm not saying it's the best. I'm not saying it's the best
• 10:12
  made. I'm not saying it's the best
• 10:13
  written, but in terms of trying to get under the skin and
• 10:16
  understand what the hell is going on in their heads to
• 10:21
  slaughter everyone every four weeks, well, I I think it's
• 10:26
  fascinating. So yeah, yeah, it's it's
• 10:30
  wonderful. Fabulous, Fraser.
• 10:34
  I'm just going to agree with Tim.
• 10:38
  Well, they laugh. So am I, but I might have a bit
• 10:40
  more to say than that. Come on.
• 10:41
  Fraser. No, no, Tim's exactly right.
• 10:45
  It's, it's, it's fascinating is what it is.
• 10:48
  It's, it's a series where for me, what's going on behind the
• 10:53
  scenes is probably more interesting, which is, than
• 10:55
  what's actually going on on screen.
• 10:58
  You know, the, you know, John Wales coming in, shaking things
• 11:02
  up, stirring the pot and then just walking out.
• 11:06
  Basically it's, he's a bit of a Boris Johnson, isn't He just
• 11:10
  comes in and you know, there's a big turd in your toilet and he
• 11:14
  won't flush and off he goes. But you know, you look at what's
• 11:22
  coming out of it and he's John Miles has obviously got a very
• 11:26
  strong idea of what he wants Doctor Who to look like.
• 11:29
  And he doesn't quite get there because he isn't there long
• 11:33
  enough. Like Tim says, he doesn't want
• 11:35
  to be there. He's not a producer by nature.
• 11:36
  He's a writer by nature. And he he doesn't want to
• 11:39
  produce. So he comes in in a fetal,
• 11:43
  certain cast members don't do anything to improve that fettle.
• 11:47
  Some of them you can't get rid of some of them you can.
• 11:50
  And he works his way through to the point where he just goes,
• 11:54
  ah, bollocks to this, I'm off. And which is at the point where
• 11:58
  he is actually getting to do what he wants to do.
• 12:02
  And so I'm not going to call it half a season because we know
• 12:05
  fine well that, you know, it's this this 4 episodes after this
• 12:10
  in series 3, what no matter what you want to do with the
• 12:12
  smuggler's intended planet, it does not belong in the
• 12:16
  discussion of series season 3. So for the first chunk, you know
• 12:21
  what, we'll call this the wild chunk.
• 12:23
  We'll call this the wild chunk of season 3.
• 12:26
  It's it's variable. It's variable in style and
• 12:31
  quality and everything, but you know what?
• 12:35
  Yeah, I think you've you've hit the nail on the head there, Tim,
• 12:38
  with one word to sum it up is absolutely fascinating.
• 12:43
  Are we really doing the smugglers on the 10th planet
• 12:45
  with the second-half of Season 3?
• 12:48
  We are. Oh.
• 12:49
  This podcast is backwards. I'll tell you, Tim, we did.
• 12:52
  We did The Twin Dilemma as well. With which one was that Season
• 12:55
  22? Exactly.
• 12:57
  Yeah, you still give me still. Give me grief about that.
• 13:00
  Oh. No, he does.
• 13:01
  Still gives me grief about it too.
• 13:04
  I find it really hard to talk about Season 3 as a half because
• 13:08
  I think as a whole it's just incredible.
• 13:11
  It's diverse, surprising, shocking, amusing, imaginative
• 13:16
  companions coming and going, writers coming and going,
• 13:20
  producers coming and going. It's it is utterly turbulent
• 13:25
  production chaos. And what hits the screen is,
• 13:29
  yeah, it's one of the most interesting and diverse seasons
• 13:32
  of Doctor Who. I love Season 3.
• 13:34
  It's my favorite Harnell season, I think for all the reasons that
• 13:39
  Tim and Fraser just said, I think, weirdly enough, and it
• 13:42
  shouldn't have worked. The production chaos is what
• 13:45
  makes this so interesting. Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:49
  I think I've rarely sat down and kind of watched this chunk
• 13:55
  episode after episode in the way that would be Ned Watched as in
• 13:57
  watching the Luke's Cameron reconstruction.
• 13:59
  I was going to say, there's a reason for that world.
• 14:01
  Yeah, as in watching the thank you very much.
• 14:07
  But I've done it this time round and it is fascinating because
• 14:10
  you literally do not know, not story for story, but week for
• 14:14
  week, what you're going to get, it can be within the same story
• 14:18
  and be completely different. So stories shift tone, emphasis,
• 14:25
  everything within the frame of one story.
• 14:27
  It is unbelievably diverse and I think that makes it quite hard
• 14:33
  to get hold of and and kind of put into a box like Doctor Who
• 14:36
  fans love today. But I think for that, it just
• 14:40
  makes it such compelling TV. It would have been marvellous to
• 14:44
  watch the time. There's one person we could ask,
• 14:46
  but unfortunately he's not on this week's guests.
• 14:50
  Have you not watched these go out live, Rod?
• 14:55
  I knew there was a reason we had.
• 14:56
  Like one. It's so weird though, isn't it?
• 14:59
  Because I think you could probably say Season 3 has got
• 15:02
  like, it's the most tea time for Tots you're ever going to get in
• 15:06
  something like Galaxy 4 and about as sophisticated as it's
• 15:09
  ever going to get in the massacre.
• 15:11
  I don't know who they think they're fucking making this
• 15:13
  season 4. You've been reading my notes.
• 15:16
  Well, that's, that's the brilliant thing though, isn't
• 15:18
  it? Because I don't think anybody
• 15:19
  could possibly imagine that the massacre would be good TV for
• 15:24
  six year olds. But I'm not 6.
• 15:28
  I, I, I know I look 25, but I am in fact in my mid 40s and I find
• 15:33
  it absolutely brilliant. It's what I want to watch on TV.
• 15:36
  So it's it's really interesting and it's really confusing in
• 15:40
  that because you know, it's not good like you say, Joe, it's not
• 15:45
  good TOTS TV, but it's good TV sometimes I.
• 15:50
  Think the what are the most? Go on, us.
• 15:53
  So one of the most fascinating things about this season is what
• 15:57
  kind of touched on their tip and the piss out of rod is how do
• 16:00
  you watch it? You know how how do you actually
• 16:02
  enjoy this season because you know, there's that much of it
• 16:05
  missing. There's only what is it 9
• 16:10
  episodes we'll get to watch out of out this all batch that we're
• 16:15
  going to talk about. I probably should have done me
• 16:18
  homework and thought about that, but you know how how do you
• 16:22
  enjoy it then? How do you enjoy the rest?
• 16:24
  Do you just listen to the audio? Do you do the the loose cut and
• 16:28
  recons? Because those are.
• 16:29
  These are really. Good.
• 16:30
  The targets, well, there's targets as well, but.
• 16:33
  That gives you a completely different skill.
• 16:35
  Well, because we'll come to these, you know, some of the
• 16:38
  targets are, you know, fabulous script, the script, the page,
• 16:43
  you know, adaptations, some are doing very different things.
• 16:47
  So is that fair to judge what was on the telly 60 odd years
• 16:52
  ago on what we've got in on a page that was written 20 odd
• 16:56
  years later and does that guy isn't there that's choking out
• 17:00
  those AI reconstructions. I forget his name.
• 17:03
  He's some footnote in the history of of Doctor Who.
• 17:05
  I know that, but does that waiter to watch them it's.
• 17:10
  It's just not as well. Some of them translate
• 17:12
  brilliantly as BBC audios. Like The Massacre.
• 17:15
  It's so rich with dialogue that it's a brilliant audio like
• 17:18
  Divorce of the visuals. And yet you listen to something
• 17:21
  like Galaxy 4 or maybe the Arc, which is selling itself a lot on
• 17:25
  its visuals, and you're like, oh, it's like it's.
• 17:28
  Tedious, but sometimes the audios don't necessarily do it
• 17:31
  many favours like the myth makers.
• 17:33
  I think few of our comments said that and I used to find it just
• 17:35
  very shouty. So if you just listen to the
• 17:37
  audio divorce from any visuals, that can be a little bit impen.
• 17:41
  It's a bad copy though as well, isn't it?
• 17:43
  That's the key. That's the key.
• 17:45
  It's a bad copy. I don't think that music sounds
• 17:48
  quite as farty in reality, but when you listen.
• 17:50
  To it it's. Pretty Andrew Another brilliant
• 17:53
  podcaster, Andy off The World Is Not Enough, has described it as
• 17:57
  wobbly popping. I'll do some renditions later.
• 18:04
  Fraser 8 I make it 8 episodes and a 5 minute clip.
• 18:08
  Yep. So out of how many?
• 18:11
  1,000,029. 29 so. That's and think of all the
• 18:16
  other episodes they could have found that 5 minute clip from.
• 18:19
  And it was another one of Galaxy 4.
• 18:22
  Well, imagine when the next episode they find is episode 1
• 18:25
  of Galaxy 4. You heard it here first.
• 18:32
  Folks. Right.
• 18:34
  Should we get into our listeners comments?
• 18:36
  Fraser, Tim We've had so many we've divided them into two
• 18:39
  batteries. Would you like to lead?
• 18:43
  Fraser, Why don't you kick us off with batch 1?
• 18:46
  Batch one in one. First up we have the wonderful
• 18:51
  James Locke. It may be bookended by two damp
• 18:54
  squibs, but this sequence represents one of the greatest
• 18:57
  areas of whoever confident and daring the show will never be
• 19:01
  this grown up and dangerous again.
• 19:04
  Bravo. Steve Wolfall Hello Steve A
• 19:08
  crazy mix of history, horror, comedy, scares and thrills, the
• 19:13
  production team Turbulence produces one of the strongest
• 19:16
  run of stories. If it was ever recovered, it
• 19:19
  will be declared a major classic.
• 19:23
  Next to we've heard from a chap called Sigh Heart who?
• 19:27
  Anyone who no. No, me neither.
• 19:30
  What a wild ride behind the scenes stresses invented as
• 19:34
  begin to be played out on screen with the sad loss of Vicky and
• 19:37
  the rotation of companions. It's bold, cold storytelling,
• 19:42
  often bleak even in the comedy of myth makers.
• 19:45
  Brilliant. Chaos.
• 19:47
  It could have been a sad loss of Vicky, you know, if you'd have
• 19:49
  gone in the Dalek's master plan. She's gone out that outlook.
• 19:55
  John Arnold. I don't know John, but I've seen
• 19:58
  him around and he's one of those clever people, isn't he?
• 20:00
  Doctor Who anticipates the grim dark trend 20 years early.
• 20:05
  Wiles and Tosh may not have been around for long, but somehow
• 20:09
  gave us a distinctive take on the show.
• 20:12
  Damn right. Next up, don't know who this is.
• 20:17
  PB personal best Peter Butler type.
• 20:23
  Yeah, PBPB says Galaxy 4 to the massacre is the best part of the
• 20:27
  entire Hartnell era. Galaxy 4 is criminally
• 20:30
  underrated and needs more love. Everything else is 10 out of 10.
• 20:34
  The lesson about the arc, on the other hand, the better.
• 20:37
  Biggest turd of the 60s? Gosh.
• 20:42
  Criminally underrated. That's a strong word.
• 20:45
  We'll see. We'll get there.
• 20:47
  Yeah. Gosh, biggest.
• 20:49
  Turd Paul Quinn. Good luck to him.
• 20:52
  Paul Quinn. Hello Paul.
• 20:54
  John Wiles instinct to push the show to try new things may well
• 20:58
  have been right, but in terms of his people management the
• 21:01
  stories and rumours suggest he was a bit of a shit and out of
• 21:04
  his depth. And we've heard from him.
• 21:10
  Not really. Majora not means nothing to me
• 21:13
  either. As usual for the Hartwell era,
• 21:16
  the historicals run rings around the sci-fi.
• 21:18
  I just wish we could actually see either of them as they
• 21:21
  imagine they're not cracking. For 60 studio bound TV that is.
• 21:26
  Chris Hogben Hello Chris, This has got to be the most
• 21:29
  experimental season ever. The six stories here are so
• 21:32
  different. This is the series I would love
• 21:35
  to see return to the BBC. And Next up is Andrew Wick who
• 21:40
  says Mythmakers Master Plan Massacre is maybe the best three
• 21:44
  story run in the whole show. No mention of Mission Neon or
• 21:49
  Maluxy 4 there. The arc is just a kind of
• 21:53
  boring. Not bad, but it doesn't hold up
• 21:56
  to the others. Oh, bomb in a statue?
• 22:00
  How do you call it boring? Luke Sims Jenkins Hello Luke, I
• 22:05
  see you are covering some of the best Doctor Who ever made and
• 22:09
  Galaxy 400. And is Dodo a worse torture than
• 22:14
  being on the run from the Daleks and then being in France in
• 22:17
  1572? Oh dodo A.
• 22:22
  Little poor. Old Dodo.
• 22:25
  Sam Rogers. Such a mixed bag, but there's
• 22:28
  active attempts to try new things.
• 22:30
  The downside is that you can't get too comfortable with such an
• 22:33
  unpredictable season. Yeah.
• 22:36
  Anthony Carroll. One of the many Anthony
• 22:39
  Carroll's who are in fandom I'm discerning.
• 22:45
  This is the Scottish Anthony Carroll.
• 22:48
  Hello Scottish Anthony Carroll. Hard to judge when so much is
• 22:51
  missing. Always struggle with audio of
• 22:53
  story. No, sorry, Scottish.
• 22:56
  Anthony Carroll, this is Norfolk.
• 22:58
  Anthony Carroll. Could you adjust your accent
• 23:03
  then? Come on.
• 23:04
  Well, I was hardly. I was hardly.
• 23:06
  I couldn't do justice to a Scottish 1 and I can't do
• 23:10
  justice to Tony Carroll's sonorous voice.
• 23:14
  Hard to judge when so much is missing.
• 23:15
  Always struggle with the audio of stories like The Massacre and
• 23:18
  the Myth Makers, but I'm fond of the footage of Galaxy 4.
• 23:24
  And to round off this batch we've heard from Timothy D is a
• 23:29
  Timothy. I love them all and refused to
• 23:32
  read them. You know, in sharp contrast to
• 23:35
  the Series 3 overview comments, that was very positive.
• 23:40
  It was very positive, very few dissenting voices in there.
• 23:44
  And when we get to the individual stories, you might
• 23:47
  find that it's not quite as not. Treary Doctor Who fans are going
• 23:51
  to come out of the woodwork. Well, we've got one of them in
• 23:54
  this podcast, The Most Contrary 1 going or.
• 23:56
  Would you want to start with? Certainly do, Rod.
• 24:00
  I think we ought to start with Tim as the newbie.
• 24:03
  Tim, take your pick of all six stories and give us your reasons
• 24:07
  why you're going to save it or bin it.
• 24:09
  Oh gosh, oh gosh, I have to pick.
• 24:15
  I hadn't prepared which to go further.
• 24:18
  Oh, where do I start? Oh my good grief.
• 24:24
  Trash one, trash one. OK, as a warm up.
• 24:28
  Oh, am I supposed to be trashing?
• 24:30
  I'm not trashing. I'm going to talk.
• 24:35
  I'm going let's as a little warm up, let's talk about Mission to
• 24:40
  the Unknown. So what are we watching with
• 24:45
  Mission to the Unknown? Are we watching an episode of
• 24:48
  Doctor Who? Are we watching a prequel?
• 24:51
  Or are we watching a kids TV melodrama?
• 24:58
  2:00 and 3:00. Yes, ish.
• 25:03
  No, I disagree. So here we go.
• 25:07
  So it's James Bond in space. Mark Corey, License to Kill,
• 25:14
  which isn't an original line for Doctor Who, by the way, that's
• 25:17
  taken from a a franchise called James Bond and his mate Larry.
• 25:25
  Yes, they're they're ostensibly looking for dialects.
• 25:30
  Corey is a cold killer, polished, educated.
• 25:34
  You can imagine him being quite urbane, I guess, but the locals
• 25:39
  are not friendly and you've got these terrible vaga plant Vaga
• 25:42
  plants which kill you with a touch.
• 25:44
  The crew are getting whittled down 1 by 1, and in 25 minutes
• 25:49
  we see this character who's obviously a bit of a wanker.
• 25:53
  Corey bit of himself transformed into a gibbering, nervous wreck,
• 25:59
  trying to dart down his last words, his urgent message.
• 26:04
  He's panicked, He's a terrified man about to die.
• 26:08
  And in that 25 minutes of drama, the performances are terrific.
• 26:14
  For me, the drama works. It manages to do an awful lot in
• 26:18
  25 minutes. There's some stuff with Daleks,
• 26:22
  there's some delegates and they're going to take over some
• 26:25
  sort of confusedly quantified area of space.
• 26:30
  But does it work as 25 minutes of kids melodrama?
• 26:35
  Yes it does. It's really good for what it
• 26:37
  does in 25 minutes, it's really good.
• 26:42
  So the second question is, is it Doctor Who?
• 26:47
  It's not Doctor Who. There's no Doctor Who in it.
• 26:49
  There's some Daleks, but that's not what this is about.
• 26:52
  This is just a self-contained 25 minute drama.
• 26:55
  Does it work as a prequel? In part it does.
• 27:02
  In tone, it does. Because.
• 27:07
  Because it's gruesome and everything that follows is
• 27:09
  gruesome. The Daleks are coming.
• 27:12
  So yes, it works on that sense. But then it's got a couple of
• 27:16
  flaws. It's it's followed by 4 weeks of
• 27:23
  Greeks and Trojans fighting each other, which confused and upset
• 27:28
  the kiddos. It did, and as a prequel, it has
• 27:33
  no bearing whatsoever on the events in Dalek's master plan.
• 27:38
  It serves no purpose. Dalek's master plan is underway.
• 27:42
  The Daleks are known about. The Brig is hopping around
• 27:50
  Campbell when they find the message in the skeleton.
• 27:54
  So. So as a function of of a prequel
• 27:57
  in that sense, it doesn't work. But it's so good.
• 28:00
  They do so well in my opinion that it's an interesting
• 28:04
  footnote. It doesn't get enough attention
• 28:06
  because it's one episode that nobody really thinks about, so
• 28:09
  I'm saving it for my part. Fabulous.
• 28:13
  All the goodies die, by the way. Can I just note that just as a
• 28:17
  just just seeding maybe a theme? That's it.
• 28:21
  We're going to come back to that, aren't we?
• 28:23
  All the goodies die. Is that why, in preparation for
• 28:27
  this podcast, you kept sending us notes on the group chat?
• 28:30
  Just said deaths. Deaths.
• 28:32
  Deaths. I felt as if I was being
• 28:34
  contacted by the Sisterhood of Calm.
• 28:37
  So yes, I couldn't come up with three reasons.
• 28:39
  So I gave, I gave AI gave a three-part treatment for that
• 28:42
  one. But that's my rationale for
• 28:44
  saving it. Fabulous.
• 28:45
  Let's go to the listeners comments.
• 28:47
  Jason Thompson says classic Terry Nation and begins the
• 28:51
  setups of the of the Daleks as a universal threat after playing
• 28:54
  them for laughs in the chase and nice little teaser for the
• 28:57
  upcoming epic. Jim Allenby says as a prologue
• 29:01
  to Master Plan it's great. Also a good example of how a
• 29:04
  Doctorless Dalek spin off could have worked.
• 29:06
  It's hard to judge a single episode though, although Tim has
• 29:10
  just done that. And the knight says grim and
• 29:12
  actually well written by Terry Nation, using his bumper book of
• 29:15
  sci-fi cliches to good effect. The lack of regulars must have
• 29:18
  confused audiences, though not as much as the following week
• 29:22
  when we turn up in ancient Troy. David Gillespie Pratt It doesn't
• 29:26
  have its own identity and is a real oddity, but that's reason
• 29:30
  enough to enjoy it. One of two stories where we
• 29:32
  don't have a clue how it looked on screen so it's hard to
• 29:35
  visualize. Jacquius has an exciting slice
• 29:38
  of Terry Nation, probably his most pure expression of his
• 29:40
  style. Mark Corrie is an engaging
• 29:42
  protagonist and his debates with Lowry are an interesting
• 29:45
  extension of the Daleks fascist allegory.
• 29:48
  Can we excuse their expansionism as long as they don't come and
• 29:51
  invade our planet? Definitely relevant for a post
• 29:54
  World War 2 discussion that. One at least to get him to
• 29:57
  rather black archive. Darren Litt Randall says it's
• 30:01
  forgettable, but the animation produced by Evil Annie was very
• 30:05
  watchable. I just don't care about it.
• 30:07
  I've no doubt it looked good with Martinez behind the camera
• 30:11
  and some nice design work from Cusick.
• 30:13
  James Larks is pretty much what you'd get if you fed the prompt
• 30:16
  Space James Bond into an AI Terry Nation random story
• 30:20
  generator. But don't do that.
• 30:25
  But from what we can hear, it was an effective slice of tea
• 30:27
  time TV and the tense prelude to something momentous.
• 30:30
  Effective as it is for 25 minutes, I'm glad it remained A1
• 30:34
  off as I suspect these Doctorless Daleks would have
• 30:37
  become quickly tedious that they got their own series.
• 30:40
  John Hall says. Probably the grimmest, grittiest
• 30:43
  and nastiest Doctor Who has been to this point.
• 30:45
  Although you know, like you say it.
• 30:49
  Especially with it's downer ending.
• 30:51
  Proof that even in 1965 people could envision that the universe
• 30:55
  beyond the Doctor's adventures. And who doesn't want to see
• 30:58
  alien delegates in action? Big orange, Michael says.
• 31:02
  I also wonder if I watched in 1965 if I'd wonder where's the
• 31:06
  TARDIS crew? I imagine a lot of discussion in
• 31:08
  the playground the next day about this.
• 31:10
  A fun gem as the show sets up the epic to come.
• 31:13
  No, good grief, here we go, my nemesis Michael Storm.
• 31:17
  A great prelude for the upcoming epic, even if it doesn't.
• 31:20
  Even if the two don't quite line up.
• 31:23
  Here we go. It might be a bit pulp sci-fi,
• 31:26
  but it does meet with gusto and hints at what Nation's Dalek
• 31:29
  series might have been like. But how exactly does Central
• 31:33
  Satan's Xmas Tree Delicate get about keep?
• 31:37
  And finally, Paul Smise is a very creepy and exciting prelude
• 31:41
  to Master Plan. Very atmospheric.
• 31:43
  I think everyone's going to love this season, you know?
• 31:46
  There's a lot of. Love.
• 31:47
  Fraser, is the love coming from you.
• 31:50
  And two things. First of all, one since when is
• 31:53
  Michael Storm your nemesis due? Since he loved everything that
• 31:56
  Steven Moffett ever did and said Nightmare and Silver was the
• 31:59
  best side man story ever. He changed his Twitter handle to
• 32:03
  nemesis of Joe Ford, actually. He did that last.
• 32:05
  Gosh. I do need up my game then, don't
• 32:08
  they? It's it's it's it's really.
• 32:11
  Interesting how this is what happens if you put James Bond
• 32:15
  and were termination the eye generator, because that really
• 32:19
  does start bringing up some fantastic mental images.
• 32:23
  So like, do you expect me to talk?
• 32:26
  No, Mr. Corey, we expect him to turn into a fluffy ball of
• 32:31
  cotton. Well, with spikes, spikes,
• 32:33
  spikes. So it's it's a tricky one.
• 32:40
  This, this is really tricky because this is one we can
• 32:44
  probably enjoy the most of all that it's missing because we
• 32:48
  have got the this kind of reconstruction we have got for
• 32:56
  mentioned Mr. Levine's animation, which credit where
• 32:59
  it's due is actually quite good. And we have got that AI
• 33:03
  reconstruction as well, which credit where it's due is not
• 33:06
  very good. And we've also got the
• 33:09
  University of Lancaster's Central Lancaster, Lancashire,
• 33:13
  Lancaster. You can, yeah.
• 33:15
  Yeah, probably offended a lot of people by mixing those up, but
• 33:18
  we've got their interpretation of as well.
• 33:21
  So visually, you know, we've got a smorgasboard of ways of
• 33:25
  enjoying the story. Wait, note for that.
• 33:27
  Oh Fraser, that University of Wherever version that is
• 33:32
  gorgeous. Their black and white
• 33:33
  photography of the Daleks is, well, it's sublime.
• 33:37
  I mean, I watched it last night and the only, the only quibble
• 33:40
  I've got with it is it's too black, I thought.
• 33:44
  The performances felt a bit modern.
• 33:46
  They were. Yeah, but I just couldn't really
• 33:47
  see what was going on as much and I had to tweak the settings.
• 33:50
  Let me tell you a little bit. But that's just that's just a
• 33:52
  main equival. But I mean, ultimately it's it
• 33:55
  comes down to where where do you put this story?
• 33:59
  I mean, Rod has been Rod has separated this completely from
• 34:04
  Dark Master Plan, but should we be including it with Dark Master
• 34:08
  Plan? Is it a part of that story?
• 34:10
  Is it really a 13 part story? And this is just Part 1.
• 34:14
  We have a break. And then, you know, we have the
• 34:16
  other, the other 12 parts, which you know, might have been an
• 34:19
  idea for the story. Is it a prequel like Tim was
• 34:23
  saying? It's I'm not sure how it is.
• 34:27
  You know, it's if it was Part 1 of the story, then it's a, is
• 34:32
  it, how would you rank it as a Part 1?
• 34:34
  How would you say this is Part 1 of thought the master plan?
• 34:38
  I think he would probably look at it a little bit less
• 34:40
  favourably. You'd think.
• 34:41
  What the hell is going on with this Part 1?
• 34:43
  Part 1 is supposed to be, you know, grab you by the balls and
• 34:47
  and give you a shake and get you invested in the rest of the
• 34:49
  story. But does this do this?
• 34:53
  You certainly wouldn't have Part 1 of a 13 part Doctor Who story
• 34:57
  not featuring the Doctor. This is the main issue, you
• 35:01
  know, it's, it's, is it Doctor Who?
• 35:05
  There's no Doctor, there's no companion, there's no
• 35:09
  companions, there's no TARDIS. The only, you know, relatable,
• 35:14
  umm, elements of Doctor Who. We've got all these Daleks.
• 35:18
  So is this Doctor Who or is this Terry Nations Dalek spin off
• 35:23
  backdoor pilot? You've been looking at more
• 35:25
  notes. And, you know, it's kind of
• 35:28
  like, you know, we used to Doctor Late episodes now because
• 35:34
  we've had them. But this is just, you know,
• 35:36
  Doctor Late to the point where it's not Doctor Who anymore.
• 35:40
  I mean, Can you imagine 73 yards if Ruby wasn't in it and the
• 35:45
  TARDIS wasn't in it and it was just Kate Lethbridge Stewart
• 35:48
  stalked by this weird woman? No, you wouldn't be happy.
• 35:52
  Would. You just Kate Lethbridge.
• 35:53
  Stewart. Just Kate Lethbridge Stewart.
• 35:54
  Yeah. Oh, thank you.
• 35:56
  You know, but you would love that job because you'd be like,
• 35:58
  yeah, that's the, that's the reaction I have to Kate
• 36:01
  Lethbridge Stewart. I want to run away and hide from
• 36:03
  her every time someone talks to us about her.
• 36:06
  So. I can't quite decide whether you
• 36:10
  like this or not. I mean, it's I just what's the
• 36:13
  point of it? Is the thing?
• 36:15
  It's I'll. Tell you in a second when you
• 36:17
  get to the end. Ultimately, it's it's Planet of
• 36:20
  the Giants Part 4. It's what it is.
• 36:24
  It's, it's the episode that had leftover from Planet of the
• 36:27
  Giants when that got cut down from 4:00 to 3:00 and it got
• 36:29
  bumped right at the end of the, the production block.
• 36:32
  And well, the, the hard one seen as production block which they
• 36:37
  got to use here. So they thought, well, you know,
• 36:39
  we'll, we'll do something different then.
• 36:41
  You know, we've got this big massive, you know, we know they
• 36:43
  want more Daleks, so we'll just use this to get sticks and
• 36:46
  Daleks in. We'll give the, the cast an
• 36:49
  extra week off. So, you know, Maureen O'Brien
• 36:52
  gets 5 weeks off instead of four before she gets sucked.
• 36:55
  So, you know, it's, it's, it's just very inconsequential for
• 37:00
  me. It doesn't do anything.
• 37:02
  You know, if it was a bit more involved in the Dark Master
• 37:07
  plan, if the events of this episode had more impact other
• 37:11
  than just like you say, you know, Space Brig stumbling
• 37:15
  across the corpse, picking up a tear, by which point has got
• 37:18
  nothing on it that's of any relevance to anyone at this
• 37:20
  point in the story, it might be a bit better.
• 37:23
  But for that, and for the fact that ultimately it's not Doctor
• 37:27
  Who, it's in the bin for me. It's a trailer.
• 37:34
  It's a 25 minute trailer for an enormous movie master.
• 37:38
  Sorry, Powder dry for a story that's coming later in the
• 37:41
  season. Who the fuck wants to sit and
• 37:43
  watch a 25 minute trailer? Me, when it's this good, I love
• 37:47
  the macho attitude of this and I actually think this is what
• 37:50
  Terry Nation could have taken to America.
• 37:53
  This sort of James Bond in space, lots of people dying.
• 37:56
  Daleks with enormous grand plans.
• 37:58
  Put it on film. Give him a massive budget.
• 38:01
  It would have gone down a storm in America.
• 38:03
  Those studio execs were wrong. This story has men turning into
• 38:09
  enormous hairy plants that look like an aged Helen Shapiro
• 38:13
  wobbling about the place. What other reason does it need
• 38:16
  to exist? Frankly, it does.
• 38:19
  It introduces you to the tone of Daleks master plan, that corner
• 38:23
  of the universe, the Daleks plan.
• 38:26
  It is. I think it's more linked to
• 38:27
  Dalek master plan than perhaps Tim suggest.
• 38:30
  But on on its own, it is just 25 minutes of very dark, very Eric
• 38:36
  Saywood like drama where lots of people die horribly.
• 38:40
  But shot. I think it's probably shot in a
• 38:42
  really interesting way. Yeah, I think, I think this is
• 38:45
  great. I think it's it's it's fun to
• 38:47
  watch. And if you've listened to the,
• 38:49
  what's it called, the executioners, the big Finnish
• 38:53
  audio that they brought out, the Sara Kingdom pilot, this is
• 38:57
  exactly what I could have done in America.
• 38:59
  So I, I think, yeah, it's not Doctor Who.
• 39:02
  It's Daleks in America. And it absolutely had legs.
• 39:05
  And this is the proof. Yeah, put it through.
• 39:09
  Well, I can't believe I'm going to say this.
• 39:11
  I'm agreeing with Fraser. This is going in the bin.
• 39:15
  Sorry guys, no. I knew Tim was going to be the
• 39:19
  only one to talk since tonight. My question is what does this
• 39:24
  actually achieve? And the answer is.
• 39:25
  Probably just. Yeah.
• 39:27
  But I'm going to disagree with you because I think it actually,
• 39:32
  realistically, it achieves very little.
• 39:35
  What do we learn from this? We learn the dialects are coming
• 39:38
  and that they're a threat. Well, not really.
• 39:40
  The biggest surprise is that we learn that they've got a plan
• 39:43
  for conquest. We know that that involves the
• 39:45
  Earth because they mention the Earth.
• 39:46
  They don't talk about what the plan is at all.
• 39:49
  There's not even a hint of the time destructor or anything to
• 39:52
  do with that plot. So Joe, you're saying it kind of
• 39:54
  teases what's coming up. It doesn't because all we learn
• 39:57
  is they have a plan for conquest dot dot dot.
• 40:00
  Literally ends on a cliffhanger with the Daleks and the
• 40:04
  delegates sitting around going we're going to take over the
• 40:07
  entire universe ha ha. Slam your table everybody.
• 40:10
  It absolutely tells you what Dalek master Plan is.
• 40:12
  All There's absolutely cliffhanger there.
• 40:15
  Not at all, no. Well, I've I've been watching.
• 40:19
  Then and the time destructors. No reference to time destructor.
• 40:22
  Am I right in I'm I'm so sorry? Am I right in thinking that the
• 40:25
  last word is Earth? Yes.
• 40:28
  Most of all, we're going to invade the planet Earth or
• 40:31
  whatever. Well, that's not the Dalek's
• 40:33
  master plan is about. No, exactly, exactly.
• 40:36
  And we see the Dalek. The delegates we see aren't
• 40:39
  necessarily the same delegates that we see in Dalek Master
• 40:42
  Plan, although to be fair, they get a bit of a reshuffle halfway
• 40:45
  along. We we do get to see the dialects
• 40:48
  have got some allies, but we don't get any kind of the hint
• 40:51
  of the kind of allegiances and betrayals that we're going to
• 40:54
  see later on. We see nothing about Maverick
• 40:56
  Chan. So how is this setting up a
• 40:58
  story? All the details from Master Plan
• 41:01
  are completely missing from this.
• 41:03
  Yes, we do get 3 new characters, but all of them are going to be
• 41:06
  dead within 25 minutes, so they've got no relevance to
• 41:09
  what's going on. OK, we get introduced to the
• 41:12
  Space Security Service, but you know, that's fairly thin and I
• 41:15
  could very easily be used in Part 1 of Master Plan.
• 41:19
  We get a lot of folks on Vargas, a hell of a lot of folks on
• 41:21
  Vargas. They pretty much disappear in
• 41:24
  Master Plan. So again, it's not setting up
• 41:27
  that later on story. You'd almost think that 12 parts
• 41:29
  are going to be about Vargas. It's not.
• 41:31
  So again, we've got a blind alley.
• 41:33
  So I just don't get as a setup. I just think most of what it
• 41:37
  starts here finishes here. So it's really a very best.
• 41:41
  This is a scene setter for me. Some people say I was like, you
• 41:46
  know, a cold open isn't these days.
• 41:48
  I disagree. It's probably more like one of
• 41:49
  those online prologues that they used to do that had characters
• 41:53
  on instance that nothing to do with the actual episode that was
• 41:56
  coming along. So if you'll excuse me being
• 41:59
  vulgar because we never vulgar on this podcast, this to me is a
• 42:02
  little bit more of a very gentle prick tease rather than a full
• 42:05
  bodied edging session. So no for me.
• 42:10
  I think you've got to watch this in context though, right?
• 42:12
  I don't. Think.
• 42:13
  This is made for old Doctor Ruth fans like us in 2024.
• 42:17
  This is made for kids in 1960. Whatever it was that are
• 42:21
  desperate to see Daleks again. So fuck the Doctor.
• 42:24
  Who cares that he's not in it? It's got Daleks on a jungle
• 42:27
  planet going around killing people.
• 42:29
  I think that's that's an excuse enough for this to exist.
• 42:32
  It's made just to wheel the Daleks out and kill time.
• 42:37
  And ultimately, does this add anything to Dalek Master Plan?
• 42:40
  And narratively, no it. Doesn't the kids there are
• 42:42
  thinking about, well, does this add anything to the 12 part epic
• 42:45
  that's coming up later? They're thinking, wow, what a
• 42:47
  fun Dalek adventure that was, weren't we?
• 42:50
  Kids aren't thinking. That too.
• 42:51
  Because the kids were. They were.
• 42:52
  Pissed. Off when the maskers the
• 42:54
  mythmaker started because they didn't want anything historical
• 42:57
  epic, they wanted the. Kids, they're saying, where's
• 42:59
  the TARDIS? Where's the Doctor?
• 43:01
  Where's his companions? The kids, those 8 million people
• 43:04
  were, you know. The kids don't know they've got
• 43:06
  a 12 episode Dalek story. Well.
• 43:09
  Exactly. So Rod's argument, it's a bit
• 43:11
  flimsy, isn't it? It's out.
• 43:14
  Sorry Dalek master plan. Sorry, Dalek master plan.
• 43:17
  I'm getting ahead of myself. Mission to the unknown even is
• 43:20
  the first to fall very quickly. Then maybe you picked the wrong
• 43:23
  story to start with, Fraser. Let's go to your first story.
• 43:28
  So I am going to go with the other story that I'm a little
• 43:35
  bit on the fence with, the one that had a bit of a, what am I
• 43:39
  going to do with this? Is it going to stay or does it
• 43:41
  go? So I'm going to talk about this
• 43:44
  one and obviously let you guys decide what you want to do with
• 43:47
  it, whether you want to keep it up in it, because I can go
• 43:50
  either way on this one. And it is the massacre.
• 43:56
  So there's a lot to enjoy about the massacre, but there's enough
• 44:01
  for us to be to bin it as well. I've got, I've got, you know,
• 44:05
  enough reasons for both of them. I think obviously it's a, it's a
• 44:11
  well scripted story. You know, it is very sort of,
• 44:16
  it's interesting, you know, because we're skipping ahead a
• 44:19
  little bit and Maureen O'Brien hasn't quite left.
• 44:20
  I'm talking about the myth makers where, you know, Maureen
• 44:23
  O'Brien gets sacked of the Galaxy 4 where she's sitting in
• 44:27
  the rehearsal room and talking about the script and wanting to
• 44:29
  make changes. And you know, she's she's having
• 44:31
  an argument with William ends and says, turns him and says,
• 44:34
  well, it's not bloody Shakespeare, is it?
• 44:36
  And you know, that's a well known anecdote.
• 44:39
  I don't know if it's as well known as what the reply was from
• 44:41
  Donald Tosh, which was well, that was the reply from John
• 44:46
  Whales. I don't think, she said.
• 44:48
  It's not bloody Shakespeare. Yeah, the reply is not yet.
• 44:55
  So this is, you know, this is kind of, this is, this is the
• 45:00
  purest version we have of Wales and Tosh's vision for Doctor
• 45:04
  Who. Yeah, because Galaxy 4, it's
• 45:08
  got, it's got very Lambert's name on it, but it is pretty
• 45:12
  much a John Wales produced story.
• 45:16
  It's script edited by Tosh, but it is commissioned by Dennis
• 45:20
  Spooner. We've got mission to the unknown
• 45:23
  and the adult master plan, which we know was kind of forced on
• 45:26
  these two. So it's not really their work as
• 45:29
  well. We get the myth makers, which is
• 45:32
  Altosh and Whiles, but Whiles admits, you know, this was me
• 45:37
  warm up. I wasn't really I wasn't kind of
• 45:39
  testing the waters with this one.
• 45:40
  I was, you know, seeing what I couldn't couldn't get away with
• 45:43
  and how the format worked. So it's it's not really his
• 45:46
  vision, whereas this one for me feels the purest, you know, idea
• 45:51
  of what whales wanted to do with the show.
• 45:55
  And it is just, you know, playfit it, isn't it?
• 45:57
  It's very Shakespeare and it's very, you know, densely plotted
• 46:01
  and it's very wordy and it's very sophisticated.
• 46:06
  I think you used the word Joe sophisticated.
• 46:08
  So it's got that element to it. You know, that it's super bleak,
• 46:13
  isn't it? It's it's, you know, it's it's
• 46:17
  say what's the head of say what's time, you know, just this
• 46:20
  once everybody dies, not, you know, it's the good guys dying
• 46:24
  against him and you've got this, you've got this excellent final.
• 46:27
  Sense which side you're on. Well, well, we'll come to that
• 46:31
  in a minute. And that.
• 46:32
  Is for debate in this story as well.
• 46:35
  You've got, you know, that final scene with with the doctor
• 46:40
  where, you know, Stephen has, you know, called him out when
• 46:42
  he's bullshit and walked out and he's just left the kind of, you
• 46:46
  know, ponder his his actions. It's it's, you know, it's like
• 46:50
  kill the moon, you know where he's from, the Ding Dong Mclaw.
• 46:52
  And he realizes, Oh yeah, I've gone too far.
• 46:54
  Yeah. For.
• 46:56
  Making a spiritual connection between the massacre and kill
• 46:58
  the moon. You are unique.
• 47:01
  Yeah, and it's really, you know, homes in on what the original
• 47:09
  vision for the show was is to sort of educate and entertain.
• 47:13
  So there's the education is really hot on this one because,
• 47:16
  I mean, hands up, who knew anything about the Massacre of
• 47:20
  Saint Bartholomew's Eve or D or whatever before becoming a
• 47:24
  Doctor Who fan? No hands in the room.
• 47:27
  So it's it's hitting those kind of spots, you know, and there's
• 47:31
  some really good performances in here as well.
• 47:33
  There's, you know, I'm going to single out Barry Justice as as
• 47:39
  the king. You know, he only gets 1
• 47:40
  episode, but you know, that scene where he's absolutely
• 47:43
  losing his shit because someone's trying to kill his
• 47:45
  mate is just phenomenal. You know, he's blessed and out
• 47:50
  of the speakers. And that's one of the problems
• 47:53
  with it is you can only hear it. You can only hear there's,
• 47:56
  there's nothing left of this story other than the audio.
• 48:00
  So for me, it's really difficult to follow.
• 48:03
  I really struggle to follow who is who in this I think.
• 48:07
  There's a few pictures to suggest there was a fair detail
• 48:11
  in the sets and the. Costumes but.
• 48:13
  I think this was a handsome production.
• 48:15
  But ultimately, if I'm coming to sit down and watch this and
• 48:18
  enjoy this, I really struggle because the loose cannon version
• 48:22
  is, is the best way for me because it's got subtitles.
• 48:26
  So I know when some particular character that's Gaston, Gaston
• 48:30
  is talking there and that is, you know, Nicholas Flamel or
• 48:34
  whoever. And and.
• 48:35
  Well, the subtitles help too, because there's surprises and
• 48:38
  silence in this story as well. Yeah, the subtitles help fill in
• 48:41
  the gaps and let us know what's happening so I can follow the
• 48:44
  story a lot better. Even then, though, I really
• 48:47
  struggle because who's a Huguenot and who's a Catholic
• 48:50
  And you know which ones Roger is?
• 48:53
  Roger the Huguenot is a Catholic.
• 48:55
  Is Simon Duval is he? Which ones he?
• 48:58
  And what side is he on and which side are the good guys?
• 49:01
  Which side of the am I supposed to be rooting for which one?
• 49:04
  Why not? Because fundamentally, there's a
• 49:06
  fundamental problem with this story in that it's it assumes
• 49:10
  you know what's going on. It assumes that you know the
• 49:14
  events of this time period. And without that knowledge, you
• 49:20
  don't know what we were supposed to be rooting for.
• 49:22
  And it's interesting you look at the viewing figures for this.
• 49:25
  Part 1 got 8 million viewers and Part 2 got 6 and it never
• 49:30
  recovered from that. I think it assumes that
• 49:32
  sophistication in the audience as well.
• 49:35
  Now, how many, you know, I don't even think about this period of
• 49:39
  history, how many school kids, you know, primary school kids,
• 49:42
  secondary school kids, how many adults are going to know this,
• 49:46
  this period of history? I think this is all down to
• 49:49
  Donald Tosh because you didn't certainly says he's going to
• 49:53
  correct this, I think. But, you know, you look at, you
• 49:58
  know, John Garatti's work before this, which was the Aztecs in
• 50:03
  the very first scene of the Aztecs as Barbara and Susan
• 50:07
  coming out of the TARDIS, finding the Aztec tomb, finding
• 50:11
  the corpse, finding the masks. And there's a conversation
• 50:13
  between Barbara and Susan, which is along the lines of, oh,
• 50:16
  wherever landed. Oh, it's, it's, it's Aztec land.
• 50:18
  Oh, how do you know? Oh, it's me speciality.
• 50:20
  Also, when do you think it is Bob?
• 50:22
  Oh, well, judging by this mask, it must be 1450.
• 50:24
  Oh, well, what do you know about the Aztecs?
• 50:25
  Well, they've murdered people in the hearts out and all the rest
• 50:28
  of it. And oh, isn't that why they got
• 50:29
  destroyed? Well, yes, it is because Cortez
• 50:31
  came and saw them doing this and missed all the good stuff.
• 50:32
  And instantly the entire storyline is set up in that
• 50:36
  opening scene. Everything that's important for
• 50:39
  you to know is given to you there.
• 50:41
  A lot of exposition though. Oh well, yes, but it it's it's,
• 50:47
  it sets the scene, you know, in. In In the Time Medal, William
• 50:51
  Hartnell basically turns to the audience and goes, oh, Harold's
• 50:54
  coming over the thing that means we must be in 1066, you know,
• 50:58
  and explains it all to you. But I don't think this is a.
• 51:02
  But this isn't a bad approach. But the.
• 51:04
  That is lacking because you only get that right at the very end.
• 51:09
  So what happens is Doctor Who buggers off for two episodes.
• 51:14
  Yeah. At this point in the show's
• 51:16
  history, John Wells does not like William Hartnell.
• 51:19
  He does not want William Hartnell in the show.
• 51:21
  He can't sack William Hartnell. He's been to a specific read.
• 51:24
  No, you can't sack William Hartnell.
• 51:26
  You can sack someone else. So he does.
• 51:28
  But you cannot sack William Hartnell.
• 51:29
  He is the star of the show. So instead, what he does is he
• 51:32
  sucks, Doctor Who. He doesn't.
• 51:35
  You know where he goes, right? Yeah.
• 51:36
  So Doctor Who's not going to be in this?
• 51:38
  So he sends Hartnall off on a holiday of Episode 2, and he
• 51:43
  hasn't played this Abbott the vampires in Episode 3 and kills
• 51:46
  him off. So completely missed
• 51:49
  opportunity. Wasted opportunity to do
• 51:51
  something actually interested in with the doppelganger of of the
• 51:54
  Doctor. It's just Steven Taylor running
• 51:57
  around being confused, which is pretty much when I'm going back
• 52:01
  over this, this series, you know, Peter Perps's default
• 52:04
  state is exasperated. And so he's very exasperated
• 52:06
  throughout this entire story as Steven Taylor.
• 52:09
  So you know, you've and again, I was really, you know, stuck with
• 52:14
  this is like, oh, this it's just is this Doctor Who is this
• 52:18
  Doctor Who Doctor Who's very is barely in it.
• 52:21
  He goes off, he comes back. It's not until he comes back at
• 52:24
  the end and goes, oh shit, the bed.
• 52:27
  It's St. Arthur Amuse Eve and it's 1742
• 52:30
  or whenever and oh wait, you need the bloody run, mate.
• 52:33
  You know, you need something at the start of that.
• 52:36
  You what you read the book. Look at what he's doing that
• 52:38
  straight away in the book. You know, there's the first
• 52:41
  couple of chapters. You know, he's like, oh, well, I
• 52:43
  can date this and it's very clever.
• 52:45
  I'll date this by the steps on Natra Dam and I'll find a clue
• 52:48
  here and I'll find a clue there. And he figures it out in the
• 52:50
  first couple of chapters in the book.
• 52:52
  So that's you can see that's what Lukurat you wanted to do
• 52:55
  with a story. And you know, I'm waiting for 10
• 52:58
  to correct this, but I'm sure you will.
• 52:59
  You know Tosh has come in and you know don't make different
• 53:03
  with it. So I kind of, let let me tell
• 53:06
  you why I'm sat here wondering. To quote Toby, if Donald Tosh
• 53:13
  liked something and was proud of something that happened on his
• 53:18
  watch and everybody else was dead, he would quite happily
• 53:23
  take claim for it. So Tosh, I think, said that
• 53:29
  Lucaroth, that Lucarotti wrote it on his theme, he wasn't happy
• 53:35
  with it. And so Tosh spent a day in the
• 53:37
  British Library and made it, made it authentic.
• 53:43
  I think that's pretty much the gist of it.
• 53:45
  But because Tosh has claimed that, I instantly doubt it.
• 53:48
  And John Lucarotti lived in France and was an historian.
• 53:55
  And Donald Tosh didn't wasn't. And wasn't, I think, I think the
• 54:01
  accuracy is spot on. Because, you know, I think one
• 54:04
  of the fascinating things about the massacre is I've probably
• 54:07
  done more research on this story than any other.
• 54:09
  Because, you know, I've went and I've looked on Wikipedia and
• 54:12
  I've checked this out and there was this Admiral, the colony,
• 54:14
  and there's Catherine Ibidici. These are all real characters.
• 54:17
  This is real events which have been described.
• 54:19
  There was that assassination attempt on him.
• 54:21
  He did survive it. He was then, you know, massacred
• 54:24
  the massive rap as everyone was. But but whatever happened in the
• 54:27
  in the birth of this story, it came out of adversity because
• 54:31
  Lucarotti kept trying to get stories in and they kept saying
• 54:34
  no, and he ended up getting contracted to write a story.
• 54:39
  So you I kind of wonder whether this theme was chosen out of
• 54:43
  either desperation or spiked by Lucarotti.
• 54:45
  I don't know. Well, I mean, I understand it
• 54:48
  was you'd signed up and be contracted to the store.
• 54:51
  We need to come up with a vacant tale of Eric the Red.
• 54:53
  That's right. Yeah.
• 54:54
  Yeah. Yeah, and you know, Tosh said,
• 54:56
  yeah, we'll go and do something else and then look at what he's
• 54:58
  come back. But I think, you know, the
• 55:00
  structure of the story is so different from, say, the Aztecs
• 55:03
  argument. Marco Polo, where you have, you
• 55:05
  know, the Doctor Who and stood, they're going haha, you my Sir.
• 55:09
  Oh, Marco Polo, are you not? You know it's.
• 55:13
  It's it's so. Structurally and totally
• 55:16
  different from other stories that I really think you know,
• 55:19
  his, his hand is not as much in this is as Donald Tosha's.
• 55:24
  So coming back to the bottom line then.
• 55:27
  So This is why I'm on the fence because yes, it's good.
• 55:31
  It's good in a way that it's a good bit of drama and it's a
• 55:34
  good educational thing. Is it Doctor Who?
• 55:39
  I'm not entirely sure. Is this what I would want Doctor
• 55:42
  Who to look like? Probably not.
• 55:44
  But then this is the beauty of Doctor Who.
• 55:46
  The Doctor Who was a broad church.
• 55:49
  There's jib N reference for you there.
• 55:50
  What where we get to have as many different stories as we
• 55:55
  want. So and we just get to pick the
• 55:57
  ones that we don't particularly like and put them on side and
• 55:59
  go, we'll move on. So that's not be held against
• 56:03
  it. The fact that Doctor Who's not
• 56:04
  in as much as not be held against it because it happens
• 56:06
  all the way through the 60s and it happens all the way in this
• 56:08
  century as well. So yeah, I'm conflicted
• 56:11
  basically. So it's a good one for me to
• 56:13
  pick and just say, you guys, you tell me it's this one going
• 56:17
  through that. Was a lot of work for an
• 56:19
  ambivalent. Answer we shall we go to the
• 56:23
  comments? I think we ought.
• 56:25
  To Didn't someone see I can talk for England?
• 56:28
  Yes, and you've just proved that and France as well.
• 56:31
  Well, so Jason Thompson says an excellent bit of drama with
• 56:35
  brilliant casting. Three stories in a row with such
• 56:38
  a downer endings is a bit much, maybe, but it adds weight to
• 56:41
  Stephen's departure considering everything he's seen.
• 56:45
  It's very funny, isn't it? You think at the end of Dalek's
• 56:47
  master plan and you know, the planet being wiped out and
• 56:49
  friends being killed, you're going to get a nice light story
• 56:52
  next. And the title comes up, War of
• 56:54
  Gold. You're like, oh Jesus Christ,
• 56:57
  sorry, David, Rennie says after an unmemorable listen to the
• 57:01
  audio. Some years ago I watched the
• 57:03
  Recon and was stunned. An incredibly bleak but maturely
• 57:06
  written story. AXA a serious punch.
• 57:09
  It's a very dangerous setting, and the monologue from Hartner
• 57:12
  was one of his best. Daniel Knight says great drama
• 57:15
  but maybe not great. Doctor Who in 1960s Heaven sent
• 57:18
  Oh God forbid. Peter Purves is excellent and
• 57:21
  there's a fine cast, but I can't help but wonder if it's overly
• 57:24
  wordy and serious story caused the historicals to be dropped,
• 57:28
  especially given the falling ratings.
• 57:30
  Yes, maybe was the reason why the gunfires came next, you
• 57:34
  know, going in the other direction.
• 57:36
  David Gillespie Pratt says. The direction that Wiles and
• 57:39
  Toss wanted to take the series more grown up and probably a
• 57:42
  little more morally ambiguous. The atmosphere is palpable even
• 57:46
  with just the order Go another episode where the final episode
• 57:49
  feels like a lost classic. Randall says.
• 57:52
  This is one that I know is impressive, but I can't tell you
• 57:55
  what the plot is. It's a new story to me every
• 57:57
  time I listen. I miss Arnold and don't think
• 57:59
  Stephen is good enough to carry it alone.
• 58:03
  Madness, Hadi. Russell Davis did a good job on
• 58:06
  it. James Lark says the closest
• 58:09
  Doctor Who has come to prestige drama.
• 58:11
  Do you hear that, Heaven Sent fans?
• 58:13
  We wouldn't want it to be this dark and unsettling over the
• 58:16
  time, but I don't think any other story takes us there so
• 58:19
  powerfully. It gives me chills just thinking
• 58:21
  of it. Brilliant and upsetting even on
• 58:24
  the audio alone. Coy says such a strange decision
• 58:27
  to tag on Dodo at the end. A real shame that it interrupts
• 58:30
  1 of Hartle's most extraordinary scenes, as he wrestles with
• 58:33
  doubt over his role in previous events and his purpose as an
• 58:37
  explorer through time and space. All will come to Dodo.
• 58:40
  The intriguingly named Quill Pen Pigoneer says the best.
• 58:45
  Imagine seeing this live. We've built up a myth that is
• 58:48
  somehow stuffy. It's terrifying.
• 58:51
  The Doctor disappears and returns in a new guise.
• 58:53
  Poor Stephen is left alone in hell.
• 58:55
  Then hell happens. The monster is the Queen.
• 59:00
  Luke Sims, Jenkins says another historical triumph by John Luke
• 59:04
  Karate. But bloody hell, stop putting
• 59:06
  the Doctor and Steven through hell.
• 59:08
  It's great drama. Don't stop Paul Smoy, another
• 59:11
  great historical very much more serious than the myth makers.
• 59:14
  Hartnell speech when Steven has left him is exceptional.
• 59:17
  John Hall says the story I'd like.
• 59:19
  Let's start that again. John Hall says a story I'd like
• 59:22
  to like more, but it's lack of Harmel really shows at times.
• 59:26
  Despite Peter Purse's best efforts, it's tough to care
• 59:29
  about the guest characters and their schemes and intrigues, and
• 59:32
  it's a shame we can't see Hartnell's hained monologue in
• 59:34
  Part 4. Big Orange Michael says it was
• 59:38
  going to be a hard to follow up 12 weeks of Daleks, but this
• 59:42
  tries its best. Nice to see the events of the
• 59:44
  last year have had an impact on the characters.
• 59:46
  The story is pretty good. Again, I wish we could see more
• 59:49
  of Hartnell's performance. Michael Storm says my second
• 59:53
  favorite heart Knoll, even if it is atypical.
• 59:55
  Stephen gets to carry the show and the politics are
• 59:57
  fascinating. Pity Anne wasn't kept on as a
• 1:00:00
  companion. Andre Morrell steals the show,
• 1:00:02
  and the final episode is increasingly blade you.
• 1:00:06
  Can see Anne in the arc. OK Andy Parkinson, another
• 1:00:10
  historical that's utterly boring.
• 1:00:12
  I love history, but this story makes me question that, bin it
• 1:00:15
  and then put it in an even deeper bin.
• 1:00:18
  Jay Holt says it's the worst here.
• 1:00:21
  Fantastic scene in The Tides of the End, but nothing happens in
• 1:00:24
  the actual story. Interesting in concept, but the
• 1:00:27
  execution fails on every front. Gosh.
• 1:00:32
  This one's even worse. Sam Rogers.
• 1:00:34
  Hello Sam. My least favorite.
• 1:00:36
  If we had to watch I'd probably think differently, but I
• 1:00:38
  struggle to engage with it. Purvis does a great job with the
• 1:00:41
  lack of heart and the was apparent and placing it after
• 1:00:44
  Master Plan doesn't help. The ending is fantastic though.
• 1:00:48
  We're going to end on a bit of love, Matt Lee Newby says.
• 1:00:50
  I love everything about this. The plot, pacing, acting, music.
• 1:00:54
  The sets look incredible from what we've got to see, and Peter
• 1:00:57
  Purvis shows he's leading man material.
• 1:01:00
  And of course, there's Harnell's beautiful monologue at the end,
• 1:01:02
  which is arguably his finest hour.
• 1:01:04
  The sudden arrival of Dodo is also crowbarred but needed, so
• 1:01:10
  Tim Phrase has given up the ghost on the massacre.
• 1:01:13
  Are you going to put it through? Quite interesting on the theme.
• 1:01:18
  I'll reveal my hand very shortly.
• 1:01:19
  Quite interesting on the theme. I recently interviewed an
• 1:01:23
  historian called Dominic Sambrook.
• 1:01:25
  Off The Rest is History and it's a podcast coming down the line.
• 1:01:28
  And I asked about the selection of historical themes that they
• 1:01:31
  had in Doctor Who and he said, well, it's Ladybird books.
• 1:01:38
  And that really struck a chord. So like, like Fraser was saying,
• 1:01:43
  you know, it's the Aztecs, it's Marco Polo, it's all this nice
• 1:01:47
  popular history. And then yes, we get hit with
• 1:01:50
  this, which is obviously, I think it's probably fair to say
• 1:01:55
  it's probably a bit of a special interest and A wish to be high
• 1:01:59
  minded. Anyway, it's a save.
• 1:02:03
  It's definitely a save. But like Joe said, we've just
• 1:02:10
  left three months of mostly grim horror companions ish shooting
• 1:02:17
  each other, being put out of her locks, being blasted away by the
• 1:02:23
  winds of time. And then they think.
• 1:02:26
  I know what we'll do. Holy War.
• 1:02:30
  We'll do four weeks of dark, oppressive religious conflict,
• 1:02:35
  Holy war resulting in a massacre of 15,000 Protestants.
• 1:02:40
  Why not? This is our vision of Doctor
• 1:02:43
  Who. Happy Saturday, everybody.
• 1:02:46
  What on earth were they thinking?
• 1:02:47
  Honestly, I I think it's, I think it's brilliant.
• 1:02:50
  I just think it's wrong. I just don't know, but I'm not a
• 1:02:56
  six year old viewer and I I really enjoy it and I agree with
• 1:03:03
  Fraser that the cast is too big and hand on heart.
• 1:03:06
  I said this when we covered it. I can't distinguish my moose
• 1:03:10
  from my guest on necessarily, but you can distinguish the key
• 1:03:15
  drivers of the plot and you can distinguish the villains very
• 1:03:18
  easily. I think the production would
• 1:03:22
  look great. Set photos that we have look
• 1:03:25
  great. It's the BBC doing historical so
• 1:03:28
  they will. The director, Adi Russell is
• 1:03:32
  great and she's from the school of Rudolf Cartier, you know who
• 1:03:36
  who handle all the baked meaty, quite a masses and 1980 fours
• 1:03:40
  and all of that stuff. So it's going to look good.
• 1:03:43
  It's the BBC. What the BBC doing What the BBC
• 1:03:46
  do best. It's might be one of those
• 1:03:48
  rumours that sort of wafts around on the breeze, but I
• 1:03:51
  swear I read that this was being held up as a prestige bit of
• 1:03:55
  drama and being shown to other directors saying this is the
• 1:03:59
  sort of quality we want you to produce.
• 1:04:01
  I swear I read that I. Could be making it up because I
• 1:04:04
  did just make up the end of vision to the unknown so.
• 1:04:07
  Well, you know, if you can find that or write in, if you've seen
• 1:04:11
  that, I'd love to know that. I think the performances are
• 1:04:14
  brilliant. I think Eric Chitty is great.
• 1:04:17
  I think Joan Young, the Queen is great.
• 1:04:19
  I think Barry Justice is great. I think Peter Purvis, yes, he's
• 1:04:22
  a bit, he's a bit forthright, but I think he's great.
• 1:04:29
  I think he does a great job. I think William Hartman when he
• 1:04:31
  is the Doctor is great, although I'm not that keen on the end
• 1:04:34
  speech. But William Hartman as a Doctor
• 1:04:36
  is great. But Andre Morrell with his low
• 1:04:43
  her, his low threatening growl is oozing menace as Marshall to
• 1:04:50
  Van. I mean, when he unleashes the
• 1:04:53
  chaos it is, I find it particularly spellbinding.
• 1:04:58
  I'm I it's like when it kicks off in the Tale of Two Cities or
• 1:05:02
  something like that. It's utterly terrifying on
• 1:05:05
  audio. I think it'll look a lot worse
• 1:05:07
  because they'll go to woodcuts, won't they?
• 1:05:09
  Or something in the in the drama.
• 1:05:12
  But as an audio, that bit when it kicks off, I find it
• 1:05:15
  spellbinding and it's going to look great as a production.
• 1:05:19
  So that's my second reason I. Will say Justin, it will be
• 1:05:23
  there. I am the This is probably the
• 1:05:26
  story that I want to see animated the most now, and I'm
• 1:05:31
  going to just because it's me and I like to say controversial
• 1:05:33
  things. I want the Celestial Toy Maker
• 1:05:35
  team to do this. There is a danger though, with
• 1:05:38
  the animation that because the cast is so large that you're
• 1:05:42
  going to end up having great difficulty distinguishing all of
• 1:05:47
  these white young men with French names.
• 1:05:51
  So it might be confusing visually, I don't know.
• 1:05:55
  More than anything, I just want to see the scenes.
• 1:05:58
  I want to see Harris. You know, 16th century Paris
• 1:06:02
  bought a life by the same team that give us that kitchen in
• 1:06:05
  Celestial Time Maker and from that.
• 1:06:08
  Really. Smack the detail there with, you
• 1:06:11
  know, the, you know, Paddy Russell's like Chuck and hoarse
• 1:06:13
  noises and peasant noises and all sorts of ambient sound and
• 1:06:16
  this. So I think that's the team
• 1:06:18
  that's really going to lift that and and bring that out so.
• 1:06:21
  I'm not going to disagree with you again.
• 1:06:23
  No, I am I I don't think this would lend itself that well to
• 1:06:27
  animation. I'd put my vote in for the myth
• 1:06:29
  makers, which I think absolutely if they just went to town with
• 1:06:33
  their visually that would be like fantastic.
• 1:06:36
  But this, I don't know what you're going to say.
• 1:06:38
  Taverns. Streets.
• 1:06:40
  The streets of actual you know you don't have Notre Dame in in
• 1:06:44
  the background. But I just don't think it would
• 1:06:46
  improve the richness of the story.
• 1:06:48
  I think that's there in the words.
• 1:06:50
  In a sense, in a sense it would help with narrative clarity.
• 1:06:53
  Yeah. I think that's.
• 1:06:55
  What might draw you in? Yeah.
• 1:06:57
  Exactly because it is. It is quite hard to unpick as
• 1:07:01
  you listen, but there's not going to be visually
• 1:07:03
  interesting. You can, there's, there's ways
• 1:07:04
  around it, you know, you could just give like Simon a hat or
• 1:07:07
  something. And you know, the guy with the
• 1:07:08
  hat is Simon and you know, so on and so forth.
• 1:07:11
  But I think, you know, like I said, just it's, it's such sort
• 1:07:15
  of like an immersive world. There's a world really built,
• 1:07:19
  you know, by Paddy Russell in this, which you can you can tell
• 1:07:23
  and you know, just just by the the sounds of like the streets
• 1:07:28
  and everything. Just the chance for to have an
• 1:07:30
  animation that really, you know, does something special with them
• 1:07:35
  is is really interesting to me. But sorry I haven't what you did
• 1:07:39
  to him. That's no, no problem at all.
• 1:07:41
  Anyway. Thirdly, the doppelganger, the
• 1:07:44
  doppelganger, the doppelganger plot is nearly a masterpiece.
• 1:07:50
  It isn't a masterpiece and it falls over, but for three
• 1:07:54
  episodes watching this, I think it would have been brilliant.
• 1:07:58
  The Doctor disappears off, yes, disappears off.
• 1:08:03
  And then he reappears as the Abbot and you are thinking, what
• 1:08:08
  the heck is going on here? This is brilliant.
• 1:08:11
  He's up to some right off mischief here.
• 1:08:12
  He's going to, he's going to save the day.
• 1:08:15
  He's being slightly incompetent. Ah, OK.
• 1:08:18
  So he's, you know, working against the machine.
• 1:08:22
  This is all the ruse. Oh, oh, dear.
• 1:08:25
  He's flying a little bit too close to the sun with his little
• 1:08:28
  ruse. They've got to kill him.
• 1:08:29
  Oh, my God, They're approaching him with swords.
• 1:08:31
  They've got to kill him. They've got to kill him.
• 1:08:33
  How's he going to? Get out of this.
• 1:08:36
  And they killed him. Had they not done that?
• 1:08:40
  They had the ingenuity to explain away what the Doctor had
• 1:08:44
  been doing. I think it would be one of the
• 1:08:46
  great stories, one of the great story plots that the Doctor is
• 1:08:51
  involved in. And so in retrospect, which is
• 1:08:55
  the easiest way to view it, it doesn't work for me because what
• 1:09:00
  was that all about? He just looked like the Doctor.
• 1:09:02
  He was a slightly incompetent villain.
• 1:09:03
  And they killed him and, and got angry with him and they killed
• 1:09:06
  him. And then the Doctor reappears
• 1:09:08
  and, you know, disappears off before it kicks off.
• 1:09:13
  But as a viewer at the time, I think for those what, 2 episodes
• 1:09:16
  where the the Abbott is about, I think that would have been
• 1:09:19
  really compelling with a let down at the end perhaps.
• 1:09:24
  But I don't think this is far away from being a really,
• 1:09:27
  really, really great story, which I think they fix in the
• 1:09:32
  novel, if I remember correctly. But it's a safe for me.
• 1:09:34
  There's too much of interest. It's so different, it's so
• 1:09:37
  special. It's it's heavy, dramatic.
• 1:09:39
  I'm not watching as a six year old.
• 1:09:40
  I'm watching as me. It's a safe OK.
• 1:09:44
  Joe. I mean, I'm always watching as a
• 1:09:46
  six year old, so I it's not hard for me to get in that mindset.
• 1:09:50
  I kind of disagree with both of you because I do think it's a
• 1:09:53
  great doctor story for when he does go and the Abbott does come
• 1:09:57
  in and I think it's one of the best twists ever in Doctor Who
• 1:10:01
  when he's murdered because it's like, what the hell for the kids
• 1:10:05
  watching, it's like what the hell is the doctor's dead?
• 1:10:08
  What's going? I think their interest in this
• 1:10:09
  story would not be the history and the politicking.
• 1:10:13
  It would be, well, like you said there, what is the Doctor up to
• 1:10:17
  and finally him dead in the Gussa or what?
• 1:10:19
  However, whatever anonymous Andy comes to, I just think that's a
• 1:10:23
  great twist. And he doesn't.
• 1:10:25
  He's not back, is he? For a little while.
• 1:10:26
  He doesn't come back until right at the end of the story.
• 1:10:29
  So they leave that sort of question mark over it.
• 1:10:32
  I really, really love this. Every time I listen to this, I'm
• 1:10:35
  captivated by the dialogue. And yet I can never remember a
• 1:10:41
  bloody thing about it. None of this goes.
• 1:10:44
  In my head and I don't know what I was saying to my other after
• 1:10:46
  they went for a walk and I went what the hell happens in the
• 1:10:49
  massacre? Apart from the massacre I
• 1:10:51
  started, I can't remember any of the characters so I'm not sure
• 1:10:56
  why it doesn't penetrate my thick skull.
• 1:10:58
  Is it? Is it because the the cast of
• 1:11:00
  characters in part 1-2 and three change quite significantly?
• 1:11:04
  So you have one group of characters in Part 1.
• 1:11:06
  It's quite a different set in Part 2, quite difference again
• 1:11:10
  than in Part 3. There's no apart from obviously,
• 1:11:13
  you know, Anne and Stephen, there aren't that many
• 1:11:16
  characters that we follow through all three parts.
• 1:11:18
  So it's constant revolving door of characters, which gives you
• 1:11:21
  the overall feeling of what's going on in the city.
• 1:11:24
  But it's difficult to kind of amplify.
• 1:11:26
  You're not following that many individual characters journey
• 1:11:29
  through the four episodes. I criticized Heaven Sent for
• 1:11:35
  being far too serious an affair. I think humor absolutely belongs
• 1:11:39
  in Doctor Who. I don't think Doctor Who should
• 1:11:41
  ever really be this serious. I think you lose the majority of
• 1:11:45
  the audience if you're this PO faced.
• 1:11:48
  But it does work just this one time.
• 1:11:50
  And I think it's because it's got that prestige cast.
• 1:11:53
  It's got a compelling script, brilliant characters.
• 1:11:56
  It's just got everything going in the text.
• 1:11:59
  That's why I don't think you need the visuals because I think
• 1:12:01
  a lot of it is there in the words.
• 1:12:03
  The last episode is brutal and uncompromising.
• 1:12:06
  And I love, love, love how it does the fires a Pompeii thing
• 1:12:09
  with Donna. It does the showing the effect
• 1:12:11
  of historical violence upon the companion to the point where the
• 1:12:15
  companion says I'm out of here. You know, if you it did, going
• 1:12:18
  through the universe with you means I've got to witness this
• 1:12:21
  and can do nothing about it. I mean, the show takes a very
• 1:12:25
  odd approach to whether the Doctor can interview interfere
• 1:12:28
  in history or not, because just what, a couple of stories
• 1:12:32
  earlier he was like, oh, I'm in a bit of a sticky situation.
• 1:12:35
  Here's how you do the great, great horse.
• 1:12:38
  Put your soldiers in there. Whilst we're in there, I'll nip
• 1:12:41
  into the TARDIS and go. So from once one week to the
• 1:12:43
  next, they can't decide whether he's allowed to do this sort of
• 1:12:46
  thing or not. But who cares, because the Myth
• 1:12:48
  makers is hilarious and brutal and the massacre is absolutely
• 1:12:51
  gripping. Yeah, I love it.
• 1:12:53
  I think Hartnell's pitch perfect as the Abbot, even though he
• 1:12:55
  gets a couple of scenes. And I think he delivers that
• 1:12:58
  last speech. I know you said you weren't too
• 1:13:00
  impressed with that, Tim. I'll be interested to know why I
• 1:13:03
  think he delivers that word perfect.
• 1:13:06
  It's one of his best moments. Yeah, this is.
• 1:13:08
  This is practically. Flawless.
• 1:13:11
  So that speech, it's a great performance and and the the
• 1:13:15
  story goes that they were they were all wonderful Bill
• 1:13:19
  wonderful when he was doing it in rehearsal to get him to give
• 1:13:22
  a good performance live. But I don't think I don't think
• 1:13:27
  it addresses what's just happened.
• 1:13:30
  He just saw none of them could understand this or whatever.
• 1:13:33
  You know, I it's a great speech, it's a great moment, it's a good
• 1:13:37
  moment of reflection. It's filled, it's killing time
• 1:13:40
  because they've run out. They've already killed everyone
• 1:13:43
  too early. It's a great performance.
• 1:13:45
  I just don't think it's, it connects to the massacre.
• 1:13:48
  I don't see how it does because the big question is he's just
• 1:13:50
  scarpered, leaving 15,000 people to get murdered.
• 1:13:56
  I just don't think it fits there.
• 1:13:58
  But that is fair. I think it, it does pay off in
• 1:14:02
  terms of the season, though, of having a reflective moment after
• 1:14:05
  losing friends in the last story, losing a friend in this
• 1:14:08
  story, he's thinking back to those old adventures and he's
• 1:14:11
  like, oh, maybe I need to change my ways.
• 1:14:13
  Maybe I should go back home. Not just yet.
• 1:14:16
  It's it's a great term, though. Yeah.
• 1:14:17
  I I think this is absolutely riveting.
• 1:14:20
  Practically flawless. OK, so it's definitely going
• 1:14:23
  through. So my vote on this is
• 1:14:25
  superfluous, but that's come to it anyway.
• 1:14:29
  Please don't. Let's go, Let's get the worst
• 1:14:32
  over and done with. First the terrible tonal
• 1:14:36
  whiplash that you get from Hartnell's mesmerizing
• 1:14:40
  monologue, and then Dodo comes in the.
• 1:14:44
  I. Mean.
• 1:14:46
  You've said, you know, what were they thinking?
• 1:14:48
  To me, this is the biggest what the fuck moments of this story.
• 1:14:52
  Jackie Lane's acting is terrible, the dialogue is clumsy
• 1:14:56
  and childish. There's no credibility
• 1:14:59
  whatsoever. We've just had this really
• 1:15:01
  powerful dramatic story. This ended in brutal massacre
• 1:15:06
  and then we get this light crackerjack scene tagged on the.
• 1:15:09
  End. It's even weirder when Stephen
• 1:15:11
  just goes, Well, I'm back. I might as well come.
• 1:15:13
  Along now the police are coming quick.
• 1:15:15
  Let's go. Yeah, it's a really, really odd
• 1:15:18
  decision. There is a.
• 1:15:20
  Suggestion that Stephen comes back because the accident that
• 1:15:25
  has befallen the small child that Dodo is coming to get the
• 1:15:28
  police for was caused by Stephen.
• 1:15:31
  Oh. OK.
• 1:15:32
  So if your head kind of nut it makes a lot more sense he's.
• 1:15:34
  Running from the law, is that what you're saying?
• 1:15:37
  Stephen has injured the child and is now looking to escape.
• 1:15:39
  Why, why? Why did he enter the child?
• 1:15:42
  I don't disbelieve you. I just want to know what's going
• 1:15:44
  on. Accidentally.
• 1:15:45
  Accidentally, he didn't take. Advantage.
• 1:15:47
  He went out and started what I've had to fucking go through.
• 1:15:54
  He's not looking where he's going.
• 1:15:56
  He's knocked some kid in front of a car and he's just thought,
• 1:15:58
  oh. That's the loops that Fraser is
• 1:16:01
  currently jumping through. Suggests that this has been ill
• 1:16:03
  thought through. Yeah, maybe, Maybe.
• 1:16:05
  When, when? When Peter Purvis is next at an
• 1:16:08
  event, I want you to ask him this.
• 1:16:10
  Why are you beating up children? Come on here.
• 1:16:15
  Maybe a little bit even too dark for the massacre, but hey.
• 1:16:18
  But that scene aside, this is absolutely brilliant story.
• 1:16:22
  I absolutely adore the massacre, and of course it's going
• 1:16:25
  through. So my reasons are, first of all,
• 1:16:28
  the two companions is my first reason.
• 1:16:30
  I think this is a great, great story for Stephen.
• 1:16:33
  He's abandoned and alone in a city and a culture that's
• 1:16:36
  totally alien to him. It's really interesting the
• 1:16:38
  number of times he says I don't understand what's going on or
• 1:16:42
  other characters tell him you don't understand what's going
• 1:16:45
  on. That crops up time and time
• 1:16:47
  again in the dialogue. And like you guys have already
• 1:16:50
  said, lots of it's a home and the whole audience I'm probably
• 1:16:54
  will have a lack of comprehension of what's going on
• 1:16:56
  because they won't understand what's going on.
• 1:16:58
  And this is not a script that makes concessions to to that
• 1:17:02
  audience. If you don't understand the
• 1:17:03
  religious and political machinations that are going on
• 1:17:06
  here, you're not really going to get it from this story.
• 1:17:09
  But I think the script works really well on both levels.
• 1:17:11
  Because if you do get it, you pity Stephen and understand what
• 1:17:15
  his plight is. And if you don't get it, you
• 1:17:17
  kind of empathize with the situation that Stephen's in when
• 1:17:20
  he's totally confused, out of his depth.
• 1:17:22
  I'm blundering from situation to situation.
• 1:17:25
  So I think it kind of works on on both both circumstances. 2
• 1:17:29
  million kids between episode 1 and 2 that disagree with you?
• 1:17:32
  There are, there are, and it stays down after that.
• 1:17:34
  But maybe, maybe the darkness was a bit too much for them and
• 1:17:38
  instead of the starting. Off It picks up in episode 2 of
• 1:17:41
  the arc. Well.
• 1:17:44
  Dave And then obviously after episode 1 of the arc where the
• 1:17:47
  race, we're not doing history anymore.
• 1:17:49
  We've got the monsters back. We've got Jackie Lane in the
• 1:17:52
  series. I mean, of course.
• 1:17:54
  An instant draw. And I said at the start, I said
• 1:17:59
  the two companions because I think Anne pretty much plays
• 1:18:01
  pseudo companion in this story. She's not just a support
• 1:18:05
  character. We've lost Vicki, we've lost
• 1:18:07
  Sarah, who would have been our our new companion.
• 1:18:09
  So I would have thought a lot of the audience would have thought
• 1:18:11
  that Anne would have been the replacement companion watching
• 1:18:14
  this because she kind of plays that role.
• 1:18:16
  She accompanies Stephen throughout.
• 1:18:18
  He takes her under his can, under his protection, and she's
• 1:18:22
  there until the doctor pretty callously dismisses her as that.
• 1:18:24
  She was the replacement companion.
• 1:18:26
  It wasn't. Exactly.
• 1:18:28
  Yeah. Till they decided actually we're
• 1:18:30
  in the same boat as we are with Katrina.
• 1:18:33
  Gavrymil found something really clever.
• 1:18:36
  It's really simple. How many letters is Dodo?
• 1:18:39
  Oh, how many letters is Anne? Oh.
• 1:18:43
  They just changed the letters in the script.
• 1:18:46
  Change the name. That is why doodle is typed a
• 1:18:49
  little bit. Stupid.
• 1:18:51
  In the celestial toy maker because there's actually witness
• 1:18:55
  Anne and not doodle. And yet they did prove with
• 1:18:59
  historical companions, with the next Doctor, it could be made to
• 1:19:01
  work you just. The next production team did.
• 1:19:05
  Yeah, we just forget that Jamie's from.
• 1:19:07
  Well, no. Yeah, after about three stories,
• 1:19:09
  he just takes everything for granted, isn't he?
• 1:19:11
  To stop 2 two minutes. Sorry, Rod, I I derailed you.
• 1:19:16
  No. No, no, it's absolutely fine.
• 1:19:18
  My second. Reason all the time, don't
• 1:19:19
  worry. Yeah, I'm used to it.
• 1:19:21
  My second reason is that Doc, this is Doctor Who being Grey
• 1:19:24
  again. We talked about this, didn't we,
• 1:19:25
  Joe, when we talked about human nature on Series 3.
• 1:19:28
  I really like when Doctor Who kind of questions things and
• 1:19:31
  looks at the kind of morality and ethics that the show is
• 1:19:34
  actually talking about. And I think it does an awful lot
• 1:19:36
  of that in this particular story.
• 1:19:38
  So Stephen is pretty much our our moral compass throughout
• 1:19:41
  this story. But there's that moment where he
• 1:19:43
  takes Ann to the Abbott's house in Episode 3, and for a few
• 1:19:46
  minutes you're not sure whether he's going to betray her to the
• 1:19:48
  Abbott's and he's going to hand her in.
• 1:19:50
  And that's, that's a really refreshing little of little
• 1:19:53
  moment because Ann thinks he's about to betray her.
• 1:19:55
  So that's really interesting. But I think what that does is it
• 1:19:58
  foreshadows what we're then going to get in Episode 4.
• 1:20:02
  I think in episode 4 the Doctor is probably at his most callous
• 1:20:06
  that we ever see him. So Doctor arrives back on on the
• 1:20:09
  set there's Steven and there's Anne and he just sends Anne back
• 1:20:13
  to her aunts house. He hasn't got any knowledge that
• 1:20:15
  she's going to be safe. He knows the streets out there
• 1:20:18
  are tremendous danger, but he's just focused on getting away.
• 1:20:22
  So he just dismisses. He just sends her away.
• 1:20:24
  Just, you know, shoes, shoes are off.
• 1:20:27
  Yes, he does kind of very vaguely try to justify those
• 1:20:31
  actions in his monologue, but it sounds very hollow.
• 1:20:33
  And again, it's kind of starting to create the doctor again as a
• 1:20:37
  bit of an antihero because we've almost backed to the beginning
• 1:20:40
  of season 1 again, thinking who is this man?
• 1:20:42
  What is his morality? Cause clearly he didn't care
• 1:20:45
  about this this young girl that we've watched over 4 weeks
• 1:20:48
  growing he developed and then he just dismisses her and leaves
• 1:20:51
  her to a fight feel. Like you've forgotten that
• 1:20:54
  lining into the Dalek rod where he said, you know, you want to
• 1:20:56
  talk to him. He's that top layer over there.
• 1:20:58
  He's been, he's been callous. Oh, he has been callous.
• 1:21:01
  But I think we've started softening him down as in the
• 1:21:04
  series at this point. And this brings it right back up
• 1:21:07
  again. And then my third reason, Joe,
• 1:21:09
  you already touched on Tim as well.
• 1:21:10
  That Part 3 cliffhanger is, is absolutely horrific.
• 1:21:13
  The doctor, the doctor allegedly lying dead in a gutter.
• 1:21:17
  You know, Stevens on the run from a banging mob.
• 1:21:19
  It's really dark, bleak, and it prepares us for the horrors
• 1:21:22
  they're going to come in Part 4. So yeah, I love this.
• 1:21:24
  I think this is really deep, dark, disturbing, serious,
• 1:21:28
  dramatic. Doctor Who at its best, and it's
• 1:21:30
  going through. Every now and again, they lean
• 1:21:32
  into that panic. Don't know that the way Harnell
• 1:21:34
  comes into that room in sheer panic and like, we've got to get
• 1:21:37
  it reminds me a bit of the end of Punjab when they're like,
• 1:21:40
  we've got to get away from this situation, you know, death is
• 1:21:43
  coming. It's really great.
• 1:21:45
  And. He's got no.
• 1:21:46
  Answers. Yeah, I'm not sure we can do it
• 1:21:48
  too often, although, sorry, we will move on.
• 1:21:51
  Paul Mars did write a brilliant Big Finish script called the
• 1:21:55
  Peterloo Massacre, which was another pure historical, which
• 1:21:59
  similarly riveting a period of history I knew absolutely
• 1:22:02
  nothing about. Now, I'm not saying Wiles and
• 1:22:04
  Tosh would have gone on and written one massacre after
• 1:22:06
  another, or given the evidence in this season that may be
• 1:22:09
  possible, but these sort of maybe there was more of an
• 1:22:14
  opportunity to do this sort of story than not.
• 1:22:17
  How much? How much of the alien menace in
• 1:22:21
  Demons of the Punjab do you recall?
• 1:22:24
  What the Fajarians? Are they turtles?
• 1:22:28
  I can't remember. That was sort of whore.
• 1:22:30
  I I just, I just can't remember them or why they're there.
• 1:22:33
  It's because the new series. Can't do it without a monster.
• 1:22:36
  Can't I know But why? Why can't they just take the
• 1:22:38
  plunge and do the partition of India and do it a bit of a Romeo
• 1:22:43
  and Juliet around it? And why do you need an alien in
• 1:22:46
  there? I don't.
• 1:22:47
  I don't. Those Series 11 historicals,
• 1:22:49
  though, they're as close to these hard historicals as you're
• 1:22:52
  going to get in the news. I don't think we'll see their
• 1:22:54
  like again. Yeah.
• 1:22:57
  Go your story. Yes, please.
• 1:23:00
  I'd like to talk about Galaxy 4 please.
• 1:23:03
  Or the day Verity Lambert gave up and knew she was moving on
• 1:23:07
  from the series. Is there a more simple story
• 1:23:12
  than Galaxy 4 in terms of morality?
• 1:23:15
  You know? Oh, they're evil, so they sorry,
• 1:23:18
  they're, they're ugly so they must be evil.
• 1:23:20
  Oh, they're pretty, so they must be good.
• 1:23:22
  Oh no, wait, kiddies, it's the other way around.
• 1:23:25
  I hope you've all learned a lesson.
• 1:23:27
  And we pretty much look at the screen and wave that finger at
• 1:23:29
  the kids. What the hell happens in this
• 1:23:32
  story? They just go between the two
• 1:23:35
  spaceships across that terribly unconvincing plane for 4
• 1:23:39
  episodes. They keep telling us that
• 1:23:40
  something exciting is happening and the planets going to blow up
• 1:23:43
  any minute, but there's no bloody tension or momentum or
• 1:23:47
  pace or anything to suggest that that actually might not might be
• 1:23:50
  happening. It's an unconvincing production
• 1:23:53
  of backdrops, wobbly robots, spaceships made of scaffolding,
• 1:23:57
  puppet monsters and stock music. Everybody has given up at this
• 1:24:02
  point. And it really annoys me because
• 1:24:04
  I love Steven and Vicki and I want them to have a long run of
• 1:24:07
  stories because I think they're really great together.
• 1:24:10
  And what's not really Steven, is it?
• 1:24:12
  It's Barbara, isn't it? Barbara getting a haircut, Star.
• 1:24:15
  Barbara being shoved in that end lock airlock at the end of that
• 1:24:18
  episode. Barbara being stuck with the
• 1:24:20
  women in the spaceship. I'm going to disagree with
• 1:24:23
  everything you're saying on this plot stuff, by the way.
• 1:24:26
  Keep keep digging. Come on, I.
• 1:24:28
  Mean they tried vainly with that animation to suggest that this
• 1:24:33
  was a visually stimulating story and failed miserably.
• 1:24:38
  Yeah, got the performance is a a wooden from all of the guest
• 1:24:42
  cast that terribly rich voice that's coming out of the real
• 1:24:47
  like a like a 1950s BBC announcer.
• 1:24:51
  There's not. None of this really gets stuck
• 1:24:52
  in my head either really, apart from the the rubbishy wobbly
• 1:24:56
  robots that wobble about the place making a strange series of
• 1:25:00
  bleeps and blobs. You mean the quarks?
• 1:25:03
  Well, yeah. Quiet.
• 1:25:05
  No, It's incredibly boring. I don't think even William M's
• 1:25:09
  is truly committed to this story.
• 1:25:11
  The target novelization is somehow even more boring than
• 1:25:15
  the TV version. Yeah, it's it's pretty grim.
• 1:25:20
  Nobody but Tim likes it in the entire world.
• 1:25:23
  Let's shove it in the bin. Let's come to our comments, Paul
• 1:25:27
  Quinn says. Do you mean the one with the
• 1:25:29
  space Valkyrie blonde super Frau?
• 1:25:31
  And they were the villains all along.
• 1:25:33
  And the ugly aliens were actually our friends.
• 1:25:36
  Thanks for the important life lesson.
• 1:25:38
  He's so annoying. He says it's so much better than
• 1:25:40
  me in 2 sentences. Bill.
• 1:25:42
  Newman, the clunkiest, dullest, most cliche ridden script for
• 1:25:45
  Hartnell and maybe even the classic run.
• 1:25:48
  Full stop. Martin has does an admirable job
• 1:25:50
  trying to add dynamism and energy.
• 1:25:53
  Really. Helped by the cast, but you
• 1:25:56
  can't Polish a turd that big. Jason Thompson says a fairly
• 1:26:00
  straightforward tale with A twist that's nothing of the
• 1:26:03
  sorts. The Dravins are clearly baddies
• 1:26:05
  from the off, so it's no surprise that the monsters are
• 1:26:07
  nice. Really.
• 1:26:08
  Episode 3 allows us to see some interesting direction, so I do
• 1:26:12
  wonder how the final confrontation and destruction of
• 1:26:14
  the planet was achieved. You know what?
• 1:26:16
  How you know the dramas are a baddie because what's that name?
• 1:26:18
  Stephanie. Stephanie bid me, bid me.
• 1:26:21
  She just stares out the camera talks to us all the time and as
• 1:26:24
  soon. As the way like Morgan's from.
• 1:26:26
  Case of and Rosani. Who's next?
• 1:26:28
  David Gillespie? Pratt.
• 1:26:30
  Probably the weakest yet. Lots to enjoy.
• 1:26:32
  The recovery of Part 3 made me rethink this story and there's a
• 1:26:35
  lot to like. Stephanie Bid means piece of the
• 1:26:37
  camera. Oh here we go is mesmerizing and
• 1:26:40
  Marga should be talked about more, but the rest of it is just
• 1:26:44
  OK. Which is lost says.
• 1:26:46
  I may be biased due to having a wonderful time seeing the
• 1:26:48
  animation of the BFI, but it's wonderful, surprisingly well
• 1:26:52
  paced with very interesting world building with the dravins
• 1:26:55
  and reels, and genuinely really funny.
• 1:26:59
  Darren Lodge The most pointless runaround since forever, and I
• 1:27:02
  wonder who the baddies could be. Quite easy to guess.
• 1:27:05
  James Larks is like a hangover from the now tired outgoing
• 1:27:08
  production team. Actually, it even more closely
• 1:27:11
  resembles the TV comic First Doctor strips in its
• 1:27:14
  unsophisticated script and Hackney design, which was
• 1:27:17
  charming when there were only 6 minutes to watch.
• 1:27:20
  What does that spaceship work? It's like plastic sheeting and
• 1:27:25
  scalding. So when it takes up like space
• 1:27:27
  is going to be coming. In all the.
• 1:27:29
  Time Michael Storm says a rather dull morality tale told in a
• 1:27:35
  rather on the nose way. Stephanie Bidme puts in a solid
• 1:27:38
  performance, but the rest of the drive ins are literally ciphers.
• 1:27:42
  The surviving material is reasonably directed, but that
• 1:27:45
  nor the animation can salvage it.
• 1:27:48
  Daniel Knight says a simple little tale and Stephanie
• 1:27:50
  Bibmeed is an underrated villain.
• 1:27:52
  Some good design work and it's a bit obvious and slightly dull.
• 1:27:56
  Darren lit roundels. I'll never bother to watch the
• 1:27:58
  animation. The trailer was enough, but I
• 1:28:01
  like the story simplicity. I like.
• 1:28:04
  Those Doctor Vicki and Stephen, directed by Martinus.
• 1:28:08
  So he gets a pass from that from me.
• 1:28:11
  Big Orange, Michael says. Reading reading the Target
• 1:28:14
  novel. I loved it and wants to say it.
• 1:28:16
  It only took three decades, but it was worth it.
• 1:28:19
  An underrated gem. Call me crazy, you fucking
• 1:28:22
  crazy, Michael, but I'm. Keeping it.
• 1:28:25
  Send me a selfie, Michael. I want to see how big an orange
• 1:28:28
  you are, Jack Coyer says. It's very standard throwback.
• 1:28:32
  Not much here of not much here that the other Hartnell space
• 1:28:37
  stories haven't covered. You always give me Jack
• 1:28:40
  Turquoise tongue twisters, don't you?
• 1:28:42
  Hartnell is thrust more into the hero role with Steven having a
• 1:28:45
  lesser role to remind everyone who the main man is.
• 1:28:48
  Marker is a camp precursor to villains we will get in years to
• 1:28:52
  come, and the Chumblees are better than the Quarks.
• 1:28:59
  Lines have been drawn out. That's that's Fraser's favorite
• 1:29:02
  story, Tim, The Dominators. Jim Allenby says not the best
• 1:29:06
  season opener, but it's certainly not a bad story.
• 1:29:08
  I like the ideas behind it. And the Cliff hanging to episode
• 1:29:10
  2 where Vicki screams at the rail.
• 1:29:13
  It's just a little pedestrian. You think you'd say that really
• 1:29:16
  personally when you as you sort of say hello for the winter.
• 1:29:19
  Paul Presser is about as basic as Doctor Who get, but there's a
• 1:29:22
  certain innocence about it that I find charming.
• 1:29:24
  Stephanie Bid me gives a excellent performance.
• 1:29:27
  Andy Parkinson's and the animation definitely helps
• 1:29:30
  improve it, but Even so, it's a bit wee.
• 1:29:32
  I've been talking too long. Paul Smy One of the weakest
• 1:29:34
  season openers, but the animation is fun.
• 1:29:37
  And finally, John Hall says I've always had a soft spot for it.
• 1:29:40
  When Part 3 was found, Stephanie Bibmeade was a revelation.
• 1:29:43
  Not sure why the real ship looks like a garden centre though
• 1:29:46
  though I. Must admit.
• 1:29:48
  I own the Blu-ray animation and have yet to watch it.
• 1:29:52
  Right. I'm gonna I'm gonna reply to
• 1:29:54
  you, Joe, on Galaxy 4. It's a load of shit.
• 1:29:57
  Isn't it? It's.
• 1:30:01
  Pretty bloody bore. Isn't it?
• 1:30:03
  So my first reason for half an hour, Ferretti Lambert is my
• 1:30:08
  first reason. So this together with Mission to
• 1:30:10
  the Unknown is the beginning of the last recording block to be
• 1:30:13
  overseen and produced by Ferretti Lambert.
• 1:30:16
  So I think it's right we kind of acknowledge her.
• 1:30:18
  You know, she was a pioneer. She was an innovator.
• 1:30:21
  She believed in creating challenging narratives that
• 1:30:24
  would entertain, inform, educate, and amuse.
• 1:30:27
  She created some of the most believable characters we've ever
• 1:30:29
  seen in Doctor Step Forward, Ian and Barbara.
• 1:30:32
  She gave us the Doctor with his many facets and alien morality.
• 1:30:36
  So where the fuck has all that gone in Galaxy?
• 1:30:39
  4. This is nowhere near
• 1:30:41
  representative of the time on the show, and it's just really
• 1:30:43
  sad that this is the last kind of full story that goes out
• 1:30:46
  under her name. In particular, I can't believe
• 1:30:49
  she allows the sexism with Stevens kind of carry on
• 1:30:52
  appreciation of the Dravins when he first meets More of that.
• 1:30:55
  Oh, what a lovely surprise. I've got that quote written
• 1:30:58
  down. I would have let in for that
• 1:31:01
  more to make this. Terrible.
• 1:31:03
  It's just you'd rarely, rarely get that kind of over sexist
• 1:31:08
  attitude in in Doctor Who, even in the 60s.
• 1:31:11
  But it's it's here in shades. Have you heard prison in space
• 1:31:16
  or? Michigan.
• 1:31:16
  I have. I have.
• 1:31:18
  Both of them are Yeah. I think planets run by women be
• 1:31:24
  created by authors with a particular factor.
• 1:31:26
  Should we say? Yeah, my second reason is the
• 1:31:29
  glorious William Ms. Now I remember.
• 1:31:32
  Thank you, Fraser, for reminding everyone how old I am.
• 1:31:34
  I do remember seeing William Ms. at Doctor Who conventions back
• 1:31:37
  in the 80s, and at that time we couldn't see any of Galaxy 4.
• 1:31:41
  So we took his word. We believed what he said and he
• 1:31:44
  told us how absolute the old Galaxy 4 was.
• 1:31:48
  He was comparing its seasons 25 and 26 which were then current,
• 1:31:52
  telling us how terrible they were.
• 1:31:53
  They were childish. They tailed into insignificance
• 1:31:56
  against the masterpiece that he had brought us back in 1965 and
• 1:32:01
  that if only Doctor Who would return him back to the the
• 1:32:04
  writers chair, he would bring that kind of style and panache
• 1:32:08
  that only a master like him could do.
• 1:32:10
  This is genuinely what he was telling us.
• 1:32:13
  Obviously since then I just worse to be honest.
• 1:32:18
  Since then we've had the reconstruction, we've now got
• 1:32:21
  the animation so we can actually see what he's talking about now
• 1:32:24
  and he's not pretty. First of all, it's a story.
• 1:32:28
  This does not justify 4 episodes.
• 1:32:30
  Maybe if they've done a rescue and done this as a 2 parter,
• 1:32:33
  something could have been salvage from this, but there's
• 1:32:36
  just far too little plot or instant or story to fill 100
• 1:32:40
  minutes. So we got all.
• 1:32:41
  It was a long, bloody, boring sequences.
• 1:32:43
  The chumblers coming along and there's discussion about how do
• 1:32:46
  they work, how do they operate, what are they doing?
• 1:32:48
  And it's just all this focus on these little Jelly molds and we
• 1:32:53
  talk about them for hours and hours and just pointless.
• 1:32:56
  And we have similarly, we've got all these long sequences talking
• 1:32:58
  about Marcus crew, how they're grown and they don't have
• 1:33:01
  Independence Oregon original thought, but that doesn't
• 1:33:03
  actually go anywhere. It's just set dressing.
• 1:33:05
  It's a conversation. It doesn't add to the story at
• 1:33:08
  all. It has no impact.
• 1:33:10
  And why at the beginning is the doctor and crew so suspicious of
• 1:33:14
  the drive ins when they rescued them from the Chumblist?
• 1:33:16
  It almost seems as though the author is telling us these
• 1:33:19
  people may be the baddest because the Doctor and Stephen.
• 1:33:22
  And Vicky? Are so against them.
• 1:33:24
  It's just, it's so on the nose, isn't it?
• 1:33:27
  Why doesn't Marga force them all at gunpoint to take them to the
• 1:33:29
  TARDIS? If Marga's gun works against the
• 1:33:32
  Chumblist, which she tells us does, why doesn't she use it?
• 1:33:35
  And why doesn't space pilot Steven Taylor know what a
• 1:33:38
  fucking airlock is? It's just none of this makes any
• 1:33:41
  sense at all. And my third reason very
• 1:33:45
  quickly, the look and direction of this Joe, you've already
• 1:33:47
  talked about the dreadful, you know, tent poles and bits of
• 1:33:51
  flapping plastic. But in Episode 3, when you've
• 1:33:54
  got the doctor and Vicky hiding behind a place called Block,
• 1:33:58
  trying to hide from a chumbley that stood in front of them.
• 1:34:00
  And it just stands there silent for about a minute and a half
• 1:34:04
  and then moves away because it hasn't seen them.
• 1:34:06
  It's just really painful, isn't this?
• 1:34:08
  The guy that directed the war machines and spearhead from
• 1:34:11
  space? Yes, it is, isn't it?
• 1:34:14
  No, Mark Ferguson did Machines take your eyes spearhead from
• 1:34:19
  space? Just to point out, it is
• 1:34:21
  established in episode 1 that the Chumbleys don't see.
• 1:34:25
  They feel and hear. I was going to ask you also,
• 1:34:28
  Rod, if they created one of those eagle mosses of a chumbley
• 1:34:31
  which by. I did.
• 1:34:32
  Oh. Shut up then.
• 1:34:36
  Fairpoint, have you got a quark rod of?
• 1:34:39
  Course, I've got a quark phraser.
• 1:34:40
  I've got a quark right here. It's quickly.
• 1:34:43
  Back to the point. So no, that's it.
• 1:34:45
  It's just bloody awful. 1 needs to go in the bin.
• 1:34:49
  Let's go to Tim. No, I need to hear.
• 1:34:51
  I need to hear his. I think it's pants.
• 1:34:54
  I think it's pants. I'm binning it.
• 1:34:57
  Yeah, it's going. Tell me about the story.
• 1:35:01
  Well, I'm just confused by it. You see, the thing about Galaxy
• 1:35:07
  4 is everybody thinks it's about beauty is skin deep.
• 1:35:16
  Yeah, the ugly villains are really the good guys.
• 1:35:20
  Now, if that was the intention, that's not what happens.
• 1:35:24
  Because the Dravins are absolutely rubbish at pretending
• 1:35:28
  to be good. The the the the conceit of that
• 1:35:31
  lasts for about one line of dialogue.
• 1:35:36
  I think they get a nice welcome from Marga.
• 1:35:40
  And then straight away she is, I can't remember what she does,
• 1:35:44
  but she's sharpening her axe and that conceit that the beautiful
• 1:35:49
  is good is done with within 5 minutes they've.
• 1:35:53
  All got massive guns. And they've all got massive
• 1:35:55
  guns. Like we're, we're very pleasant
• 1:35:57
  S S officers, you know? So there is no doubt, but I'm
• 1:36:00
  almost the first moment that the drive ins are awful and that
• 1:36:03
  Marga is awful. What I do find it interesting
• 1:36:07
  that we find out that the clones are treated awfully and.
• 1:36:11
  And I do find that a more interesting angle.
• 1:36:13
  Which, Rod, you said it goes nowhere.
• 1:36:16
  But if there's something of interest, if there's some
• 1:36:18
  sympathy to be gained, I think it's there.
• 1:36:22
  The rules are boring. Earnest.
• 1:36:27
  Who said they were RP 1950s announcers?
• 1:36:31
  Yeah. Terrible, but clearly decent.
• 1:36:35
  The Chumblee's again. You'll suppose that they turn up
• 1:36:41
  on the planet and the dot says obviously no one lives here.
• 1:36:44
  And then something turns up straight away and it's just all
• 1:36:46
  padding. And then this chumbley comes up
• 1:36:49
  and it's supposed to be a threat, it's supposed to be a
• 1:36:52
  mystery. And straight away all drama is
• 1:36:54
  sapped out of that because Vicky calls them a chumbley.
• 1:36:59
  Nice, friendly, rumbly chumbley. And even even the rills start
• 1:37:04
  calling them Chumbley's. Although it was pointed out the
• 1:37:06
  other day that at one point they get called a cumbley so.
• 1:37:11
  That's a different story altogether.
• 1:37:13
  He's a chumbly movement. Yes.
• 1:37:16
  I I don't know. They're a disaster.
• 1:37:20
  So what is the point in this story?
• 1:37:25
  Some villains, some goodies are stuck on a planet and the Doctor
• 1:37:29
  helps the goodies. Essentially, that's what it is.
• 1:37:32
  I don't think it has the twist that everybody is generous
• 1:37:36
  enough to donate to it, to give it a point in the existing.
• 1:37:39
  That's why I disagree with you, Joe.
• 1:37:41
  I think you're, I think you've been trained.
• 1:37:44
  I think we've all been trained to believe that this is about
• 1:37:47
  beauty, is skin deep and it's not.
• 1:37:50
  It's about nothing. So imagine then when William M
• 1:37:54
  submitted this story and the Dravins are all blokes.
• 1:38:01
  I don't think blokes in a good way.
• 1:38:03
  I don't think they'd be beautiful men.
• 1:38:04
  I just think they'd be like a blokes.
• 1:38:09
  And it's Verity Lambert who at least had the idea if that's a
• 1:38:13
  good thing or a bad thing. It's very bad thing.
• 1:38:15
  But at least a point of difference was he said, she said
• 1:38:19
  no, we're going to make these beautiful thing.
• 1:38:24
  So there's this interview with William M's where he says I
• 1:38:27
  wrote them as male. Then somebody suggested it would
• 1:38:30
  be fun to turn them into lovely girls.
• 1:38:35
  He's the lovely. Girls in our quotes.
• 1:38:37
  Have things changed right in colonies face?
• 1:38:39
  Didn't it go the other way? They had an evil woman, didn't
• 1:38:43
  they? And they?
• 1:38:43
  Went, Oh, Susan Jamison and and you know, in the in the Pixie
• 1:38:48
  book, it's got some of the press quotes in there.
• 1:38:54
  Well, about look out Doctor Who. They're beautiful, they're
• 1:39:00
  blonde and they're deadly. And they've got big guns.
• 1:39:08
  The male described them. Big guns.
• 1:39:12
  The male described them as a race of Sizzlers.
• 1:39:19
  Some of that weight was in the script.
• 1:39:22
  Yeah, and then, and then, you know, I can't remember who said
• 1:39:26
  it, but Stephen's greeting, what a lovely surprise.
• 1:39:30
  And then in the five minute clip we've got Hartnell gets an
• 1:39:34
  eyeful as well and he looks Margaret up and down and
• 1:39:39
  approves of her shape with a wave of the hand.
• 1:39:42
  So, you know, I'm not sensitive about these things.
• 1:39:45
  I I like a carry on film, but this is awful.
• 1:39:49
  I mean, this is this is bad TV and it's, it's really the first
• 1:39:54
  attempt to get the dads watching, isn't it?
• 1:39:58
  Which I feel quite sensitive about here.
• 1:40:01
  I don't care about Leela. But but here when we're in good,
• 1:40:04
  pure, early, good old Verity Lambert, Doctor Who, we're
• 1:40:09
  getting the dads in. And then the other thing I do
• 1:40:12
  take slight, slight issue with Joe, which again, you're saying
• 1:40:16
  the Peter Purvis line. And yes, Barbara may have been
• 1:40:19
  getting a haircut and yes, Barbara may have been thrown in
• 1:40:22
  an airlock and therefore she doesn't know what it is.
• 1:40:25
  But Peter Purvis has got no right to moan beyond that.
• 1:40:28
  I like Steven Taylor, I like Peter Purvis, but I think he was
• 1:40:31
  being a bit sexist himself. I just don't think he, I just
• 1:40:34
  don't think he wanted to have anything to do with Barbara.
• 1:40:38
  But but so he tells the story that he was overpowered by a
• 1:40:44
  woman or something like that, doesn't he?
• 1:40:47
  But put Ian and Barbara into this story and it doesn't make
• 1:40:53
  one iota of difference what happens to any of them.
• 1:40:58
  Episode 1, they're all together. Steven goes back to the TARDIS
• 1:41:04
  with the Doctor. Episode 2, they go back to the
• 1:41:07
  TARDIS and Vicki goes out with the Doctor.
• 1:41:11
  So if Steven hadn't been left behind, he'd have even less to
• 1:41:15
  do, you know? So I again, this is another myth
• 1:41:20
  which because there's so little to talk about in this story of
• 1:41:25
  value, I think it's just something that people reach for.
• 1:41:28
  But I don't think it's true and I don't think it's a fair
• 1:41:30
  criticism by by Steven. It's just rubbish.
• 1:41:34
  Him. I was desperate or I had to say
• 1:41:36
  something. Yeah, but that's the problem,
• 1:41:38
  isn't it? The the two things that people
• 1:41:40
  say about these, the story, I don't think they're even true.
• 1:41:44
  I will say though, that there's a massacre at the end.
• 1:41:48
  All all the Dravins die, which is a sign of things to come.
• 1:41:53
  But yeah, it's in the bin. Maybe.
• 1:41:55
  Wiles and Tosh looked over their shoulder and I went.
• 1:41:57
  Oh, that's the one. Kill everybody.
• 1:42:00
  Yeah, I, I, I, I could talk more about about it.
• 1:42:05
  Oh, I suppose everyone will know this.
• 1:42:07
  Do you know when a trembling next appears in Doctor Who?
• 1:42:11
  The one. Evil of the Daleks.
• 1:42:14
  Well done, Fraser. And even of the Daleks.
• 1:42:20
  Someone help me out? Go on, Fraser.
• 1:42:23
  They take the top two layers off the Chumbley and make the top
• 1:42:26
  two layers of the Emperor Dalek. I did not know that.
• 1:42:32
  Wowzers. That's why you 2 guys are here,
• 1:42:34
  all right? I read the.
• 1:42:37
  I read the production notes on the DVD.
• 1:42:40
  That's. Razor's subtitle on Twitter is
• 1:42:43
  Champion of the Damned. Since everybody has hated this
• 1:42:46
  story to date, there's a good chance he's about to do a
• 1:42:50
  rousing defence. I was about.
• 1:42:53
  To give you exactly the same intro.
• 1:42:54
  Well. Oh can I just add though?
• 1:42:57
  Can I just add against Mission to the unknown?
• 1:42:59
  Mission to the Unknown is not directed by Canfield, so it's a
• 1:43:03
  mistake to think that the visuals will be similar to
• 1:43:07
  Dialect's master plan. Because, of course, and as was
• 1:43:10
  said previously, it's Martin. By Martinez, yeah.
• 1:43:14
  Yeah, well. We did do 10 planet as well
• 1:43:16
  didn't they? He did, but he's learning his
• 1:43:18
  trade here, isn't it? Yeah.
• 1:43:20
  And he's not Canfield with love. Come on, Fraser.
• 1:43:24
  Sorry, Fraser. No, that's fine.
• 1:43:27
  Yeah. It's an interesting because it's
• 1:43:29
  not often I agree with Rod. You know, it does happen every
• 1:43:34
  now and again. Usually I, you know, sit, I
• 1:43:36
  listen to these at home and I just think what a load about
• 1:43:38
  shit. Where's he got that one?
• 1:43:40
  Has he written this down? Has he written this down and
• 1:43:44
  went overwritten? So.
• 1:43:46
  Now you know what you feel with you most of the time.
• 1:43:48
  Yeah. And often I think, you know, you
• 1:43:51
  know, even if stop clock is right twice a day.
• 1:43:54
  So you know, given the benefit, the doubt, I mean obviously this
• 1:43:57
  isn't one of those opportunities occasions.
• 1:43:59
  Go. On you know, obviously I am sat
• 1:44:02
  with the Happiness Patrol this evening with us all dumping on
• 1:44:05
  this this story. So if anyone needs a piss break,
• 1:44:09
  go for it now. Because.
• 1:44:13
  The talks for England is getting warmed up.
• 1:44:16
  So it's really interesting what you were saying that Joe, about
• 1:44:18
  being the end of the year. This is the end of the very
• 1:44:21
  Lambert year and it's, you know, not going to be asked anymore
• 1:44:24
  and it's fizzling out. And it's it's because it's not
• 1:44:26
  this is the start. This is the start of Wales and
• 1:44:29
  Tosh, you know very Lambert's names on this, but she is
• 1:44:33
  shadowing John Wells. You know, he shadowed her
• 1:44:35
  through the Time Meddler. She is now shadowing him.
• 1:44:38
  He is basically doing the producing.
• 1:44:40
  He is winning the show. And she is just there behind the
• 1:44:43
  scenes, sort of like supervised and making sure she's getting.
• 1:44:46
  Sabotaging their takeover then. Well, I don't think they need
• 1:44:50
  much sabotaging because you know, as we've seen with the
• 1:44:52
  massive ads, you know, this is anyhow Monaco back over that.
• 1:44:57
  But so this is this is very much new beginnings.
• 1:45:00
  This is new beginnings for everyone.
• 1:45:01
  This is, you know, while starting out, this is, you know,
• 1:45:04
  Tosh getting going. It's it's Derek Martinez.
• 1:45:07
  As we've said, this is his first one out.
• 1:45:09
  You know, was supposed to be Mervyn Pinfield, but he was too
• 1:45:11
  poorly. So don't want.
• 1:45:13
  To read the script. Come in and and step in.
• 1:45:16
  So there's that little element of inexperience about it, shall
• 1:45:25
  we say, You know, people are learning what they're doing.
• 1:45:28
  So it's an explanation. It's not an excuse.
• 1:45:31
  It's an explanation. But to be honest, I don't think
• 1:45:34
  the story's that bad. You know, it's it is.
• 1:45:37
  It has got that core message, you know, where the pretty
• 1:45:40
  things are bad and the bad things, the the Oakley looking
• 1:45:43
  things are good. And as it's sort of like, you
• 1:45:46
  know, when you used to watch a hey man, and you'd turn at the
• 1:45:48
  end and go, what have we learned today?
• 1:45:50
  Children don't do drugs, that sort of thing.
• 1:45:54
  So it's got that really sort of basic core message, which it's
• 1:45:57
  then got the story sort of woven around.
• 1:46:00
  And you know, is it a very complex to well, it's not really
• 1:46:02
  it's it's not the massacre by no means.
• 1:46:04
  It's not, you know, anything is is labyrinth difficult to
• 1:46:08
  follow? It's all of opposites.
• 1:46:10
  You know, really this is, you know, tops TV.
• 1:46:14
  This is the the television that the six year old is going to
• 1:46:17
  follow. But that's the audience, you
• 1:46:18
  know, that's the audience that we've got here.
• 1:46:22
  Interestingly, this is the most popular story of the season in
• 1:46:27
  terms of ratings. It gets the highest ratings
• 1:46:29
  overall, the appreciation index as well.
• 1:46:32
  It's the highest this this batch that we're talking about.
• 1:46:37
  And so it's, you know, we can sit down and go, Oh yeah, it's
• 1:46:41
  rubbish, it's boring. Look at that and what people
• 1:46:45
  enjoyed it while it was out, you know?
• 1:46:47
  Sure, how the Doctor Who was off the air after the time meddling,
• 1:46:50
  but maybe they were just happy it was back.
• 1:46:53
  Maybe, but you know, they enjoyed it.
• 1:46:56
  You know, they enjoyed it more than any other story that we're
• 1:46:58
  going to discuss tonight. And So what do I like about
• 1:47:02
  this? I think there's a lot to enjoy.
• 1:47:09
  William Arnold William Hartnell is brilliant in this and I'm so
• 1:47:14
  glad we've got that episode 3 material now to show exactly
• 1:47:18
  what William Hartnell was capable of.
• 1:47:22
  You know, William Hartnell is often, especially in this season
• 1:47:27
  when, you know, things start to go wrong from towards the end
• 1:47:30
  till end, when his health starts going, when he has fallen out
• 1:47:32
  with viols and he's trying to be replaced.
• 1:47:36
  And then obviously in his Lloyd comes in and has pretty much the
• 1:47:39
  same idea. Let's let's say down this guy.
• 1:47:43
  But you just look at him in in that footage in airlock and you
• 1:47:46
  can see just how dynamic he actually is.
• 1:47:50
  How you know much vigor, vim and vigor he's got, you know, is
• 1:47:55
  that scene, whether he's sending the trump he's out to rescue
• 1:47:57
  Stephen from the the airlock and he's his arms point and he's
• 1:48:03
  he's storming out after it with his stick.
• 1:48:05
  You know, you've got Morgan O'Brien trying Pretentious
• 1:48:07
  running after it, and Hart was just striding along.
• 1:48:09
  Like he's that boss of that. Fucking planet, because he is
• 1:48:12
  and he's just magnetic. You know, he's he's delivering
• 1:48:16
  these lines and it really helps that he's with Vicky for the the
• 1:48:20
  biggest part of this, because we all know that William Hartman
• 1:48:23
  the morning and Brian were an excellent partnership and she
• 1:48:27
  was he's she was he's mind. That wasn't just she was, you
• 1:48:32
  know, the one that kept him sweet and, you know, made sure
• 1:48:35
  he's happy on set. And, you know, what turned his
• 1:48:38
  his moods around and what's supporting them together for,
• 1:48:41
  you know, the vast majority of the story really helps with
• 1:48:44
  that. And, you know, Julio said the,
• 1:48:46
  the cast, the supporting cast are rubbish.
• 1:48:48
  But I can't really. Leave that away.
• 1:48:51
  What I said. What do?
• 1:48:52
  You say sorry. Wooden.
• 1:48:54
  Wooden. I mean there are rates of clones
• 1:48:57
  so fair enough. But Stephanie Bitmead, you know,
• 1:49:00
  is, is brilliant as MAGA and she has that, as was just mentioned
• 1:49:04
  in the comments, that that monologue down, down the camera
• 1:49:09
  where she's talking about like the planet dying and, you know,
• 1:49:12
  it's all in her face and it's just, it is, it's mesmerizing.
• 1:49:15
  Stephanie Bedmead is a fine actress.
• 1:49:17
  And. When she pops up in things,
• 1:49:19
  it's. Always an archaic performance
• 1:49:21
  style, though. It's very theatrical.
• 1:49:23
  It's very sort of 40s. By the end of the season, we're
• 1:49:25
  doing 60s television. We're doing like the war
• 1:49:28
  machines, you know, slick telly. This is someone directly to
• 1:49:31
  camera telling you the moral of the story, you know.
• 1:49:34
  It's it's not it's someone directly the camera, you know,
• 1:49:38
  talking about a planet exploding, millions of people
• 1:49:40
  dying and the Glee on her face is just talking about this is
• 1:49:44
  just magnetic. It's a really is a mesmerizing
• 1:49:47
  performance. And yes, it might be archaic.
• 1:49:48
  It might be, you know, you know, out of date, but it works.
• 1:49:54
  It really works. It's it's a fantastic again,
• 1:49:56
  it's another one which I'm really glad we've got that clip
• 1:50:00
  from that that. Yeah, I think, I think that I
• 1:50:04
  think that moment is what surprised people, isn't it?
• 1:50:07
  Because people had seen the 5 minutes of of episode 1, the six
• 1:50:11
  minutes, whatever it is. And like, you know, the Triton
• 1:50:16
  moments in Underwater Menace that came back, which you, you
• 1:50:19
  don't know, are there. I can't remember whether you got
• 1:50:21
  worked out. There was that shot of of bit
• 1:50:24
  me, but it was something to talk about.
• 1:50:26
  You know, it was, oh, I didn't know that was there.
• 1:50:29
  Yeah. And so it was exciting for that.
• 1:50:33
  What surprised me was but. We've had it for 12 years, had
• 1:50:35
  a. Flashback scene?
• 1:50:36
  Was it in episode 3 where they talk about when they first
• 1:50:39
  landed and we do like APOD shot on a flashback?
• 1:50:42
  Oh OK, that's vaguely interesting.
• 1:50:44
  But like I said, we were so desperate for things to talk.
• 1:50:46
  About. That's kind of my, that's kind
• 1:50:50
  of where I'm, I'm sitting with it now.
• 1:50:51
  But we didn't know about those things.
• 1:50:56
  It just adds to the fascination of the season because, you know,
• 1:51:00
  if this is what's happening in Galaxy 4, what are we missing
• 1:51:03
  from the rest? What are these sort of, you
• 1:51:06
  know, directorial choices that we an actorial flourishes that
• 1:51:10
  we can't see because there's no telly snaps, there's no off air
• 1:51:14
  recording, You know, there's nothing there.
• 1:51:17
  You know, what are we missing? It just makes you wonder,
• 1:51:19
  doesn't it, what else are we missing?
• 1:51:21
  But. You could say that about all the
• 1:51:23
  missing stories this season, and all of those stories are best
• 1:51:26
  grips than this. And, and just on the flip side
• 1:51:30
  to that, Fraser, I think it's tempting to imagine it was
• 1:51:35
  better than it might have been. So you all want to imagine the
• 1:51:39
  the real spaceship taking off at the end that's not on screen.
• 1:51:43
  It's going to be a shot of it's going to be a shot of the Doctor
• 1:51:47
  and Stephen and Vicki with a wind if.
• 1:51:50
  Yeah, exactly. And some flashing lights or
• 1:51:52
  something. Maybe a paper plate on a string
• 1:51:54
  if you're lucky. Don't think you.
• 1:51:56
  I don't think we'll even get that.
• 1:51:58
  Those plastic sheets, ones of, you know, survive, take off.
• 1:52:02
  You know you can, you can slip the sets as much as you want,
• 1:52:05
  but you know, this is Doctor Who we have.
• 1:52:07
  You know it's. I don't mind the sets.
• 1:52:10
  Exactly. It's Doctor Who.
• 1:52:11
  It's it's not, it's not a film production.
• 1:52:14
  It's not, it's not got the budget for all the space for all
• 1:52:18
  these sets. It just does what what it can
• 1:52:21
  the best. Sorry hang on.
• 1:52:22
  I have to disagree with you here because I know that Daleks
• 1:52:25
  master plan was made the bulk of it on a lesser budget than the
• 1:52:31
  bulk of this season and the sets in that and the way that shot is
• 1:52:35
  so great. I don't buy that excuse the the
• 1:52:39
  it's done in a tiny corner of a studio.
• 1:52:41
  I think it comes down to the skill of the director and I
• 1:52:44
  don't think he was up to it. He's learning.
• 1:52:47
  He's like I said, it's this and some starting out.
• 1:52:49
  He's learning. He's he's, he's trade, he'll go
• 1:52:51
  on and do you know better things, But you know, for a guy
• 1:52:56
  who's trucked in at the last minute.
• 1:52:57
  He's not designed it. He's been parachuted in.
• 1:53:00
  You know, you just, I know that doesn't affect the quality, but
• 1:53:04
  the Dane, the difficulties always knowing why things are
• 1:53:07
  and how things are, isn't it? So I mean to defend him, he was
• 1:53:10
  parachuted in and sorry, who was the original Pinfield?
• 1:53:17
  Pinfield. Pinfield had already done some
• 1:53:19
  of it. I think he'd done the film
• 1:53:20
  stuff. But we do see some terrible
• 1:53:22
  shots, like when Vicky's running out or trying to run out of the
• 1:53:26
  the real spaceship in Part 3 and the door comes down.
• 1:53:29
  We actually see that the door stops about 3 foot from the
• 1:53:32
  floor and she's holding the bar saying I can't.
• 1:53:35
  Get out, doctor. I.
• 1:53:35
  Can't get out, he's just lie down and roll under the.
• 1:53:38
  Massive. Gap, I'm glad you've picked up
• 1:53:40
  on that one, because that is indeed the only example of a
• 1:53:43
  wobbly set in the attire 60 year history of Doctor Who.
• 1:53:46
  But you said as well that Hardener was commanding in this.
• 1:53:48
  But those scenes in Episode 3, he's wandering around that
• 1:53:51
  spaceship, you know, like he's trying to find the bog in the
• 1:53:53
  retirement home he's got. He's missing his mark all the
• 1:53:56
  time. He's.
• 1:53:59
  Brilliant. No.
• 1:54:00
  And I mean, this is, this is he is brilliant.
• 1:54:03
  He is, and I'll tell you what, he gives heroic performances
• 1:54:05
  this season. I don't think this is his best.
• 1:54:08
  I think this is probably one of his better written ones as well
• 1:54:11
  because this is the kind of the last of the Spooner until we
• 1:54:15
  actually get some Dennis Spooner later on.
• 1:54:17
  Because the interesting thing for me is, is how all the the
• 1:54:22
  script editors write William Hartnell as the Doctor.
• 1:54:27
  And I think they all have a tendency to make the Doctor an
• 1:54:30
  old man apart from Dennis Spooner.
• 1:54:34
  Dennis Spooner doesn't look at William Hartnell as an old man
• 1:54:37
  and doesn't look at William Hartnell's Doctor Who was an old
• 1:54:39
  man. He looks at him as an action
• 1:54:41
  hero. So you have scenes like the
• 1:54:45
  Romans where he's chucking wrestlers out the window and,
• 1:54:49
  you know, and the chase where. He's.
• 1:54:52
  Wearing off against a robot version of himself.
• 1:54:55
  And, you know, Dennis Spooner is happy to have William Hartwell
• 1:54:58
  doing all these things. Whereas you know that what you
• 1:55:02
  were seeing about that, that scene at the end of the massacre
• 1:55:06
  team where it's like, you know, there's there's no connect
• 1:55:09
  between, you know, the doctor, you know his his actions in the
• 1:55:15
  massacre and why he's in the position now, why he's alone.
• 1:55:17
  He's he's not getting he's not understanding.
• 1:55:19
  That's pure pensioner. That is a. 100% pensioner.
• 1:55:23
  And so. There's a huge gulf between
• 1:55:26
  looking at the fire of Rome and going, oh, it's all my fault, is
• 1:55:29
  it? And the weight of responsibility
• 1:55:33
  of history at the end of the massacre.
• 1:55:35
  There is a gulf between those two things.
• 1:55:37
  And the first thing he does when he walks into the draft in
• 1:55:39
  spaceship is sit down to have a chat with Mark.
• 1:55:42
  Doesn't even stand up. He's going to have a sit.
• 1:55:44
  He doesn't only have a chat and he gets a right eye for him.
• 1:55:47
  And. Think about the Celestial toy
• 1:55:49
  maker. I know he's not in it a lot, but
• 1:55:51
  think about Celestial talk about, think about the myth
• 1:55:52
  makers. He's like a strategist now,
• 1:55:54
  isn't he? He's a clever man.
• 1:55:57
  Yeah, he's an old man. An old clever man an.
• 1:56:00
  Old clever man, you know. Not with Dennis Spooner.
• 1:56:02
  Dennis Spooner will have him doing a lot more.
• 1:56:05
  But anyhow, I am digressing because we should be talking
• 1:56:07
  about Stephanie Bittany, because the character of, of MAGA is a
• 1:56:11
  really interested one. And it's because it's like, you
• 1:56:14
  know, the, it's the female space Nazis, isn't it?
• 1:56:18
  In their little tin machine, their little tin spaceship, you
• 1:56:22
  know, out in the universe trying to colonize planets, trying to
• 1:56:25
  take over, trying to throw the weight around and just being
• 1:56:27
  really, really shit and ineffectual.
• 1:56:29
  And she's called MAGA. She just needs the Red Hat.
• 1:56:32
  Then we're done. It's hilarious and.
• 1:56:35
  But you're watching. One laughing.
• 1:56:36
  That's the trouble. Yeah, because yeah, yeah.
• 1:56:39
  Happiness Patrol tonight. It's fun.
• 1:56:43
  There you go, David Graspie pride.
• 1:56:44
  Get the get the clip out. This is fun.
• 1:56:47
  And but I think the one thing that really sells this story
• 1:56:51
  more than anything for me, that really makes me keep coming back
• 1:56:55
  to watching it is the soundscape of it.
• 1:56:59
  The weed sounds. Yeah, the Trump.
• 1:57:02
  Do you truly noise? Well, I just did it.
• 1:57:05
  Do it again. What do the kids call it
• 1:57:12
  nowadays? ASMR.
• 1:57:13
  Where it's just that relaxing? Don't know?
• 1:57:16
  Compare that with the zombie. It's just as annoying as it's.
• 1:57:20
  Not that's the that's the thing, you know zombies, right Yeah.
• 1:57:24
  Whereas there's something very soothing about the sound of a
• 1:57:27
  chumbley, but the the incidental music, the it's stock music that
• 1:57:33
  they've used, but it's it's by some sort of like mod Parisian
• 1:57:37
  band outfits of this structure. Somewhere this is the theme tune
• 1:57:42
  to my podcast you're talking about.
• 1:57:43
  I'm. Definitely gonna have to listen
• 1:57:45
  to your podcast now because incidental music is just
• 1:57:49
  magnificent. It's.
• 1:57:50
  Just like music is the way planet, isn't it?
• 1:57:52
  Yeah, it is. It's so out there.
• 1:57:54
  And it's just so, you know, it speaks of just we had alien shit
• 1:58:01
  and, you know. It's played on glass tubes.
• 1:58:04
  Yeah, it's wicked. It really is.
• 1:58:07
  It's magic. It really just adds so much to
• 1:58:11
  the the texture of of this. And when it's like I say, we've
• 1:58:15
  got an animation, excellent one that we're going to talk about
• 1:58:18
  night where we have got an animation and but you know, just
• 1:58:23
  listening to it, it's just effortlessly listening to ball
• 1:58:25
  listening. Listenable.
• 1:58:29
  So or the cure. For insomnia, one or the other.
• 1:58:32
  Well, quite possibly, you know, it's you could put it on as
• 1:58:35
  white noise. You could just stick it on your
• 1:58:37
  Alexa, try to listen to it today, but I couldn't find it
• 1:58:40
  anywhere. So Tim, you might have to slip
• 1:58:41
  as a link somewhere where I can stream it and and put it on the
• 1:58:45
  Alexa at night to help us sleep. Because it is just.
• 1:58:48
  So soothing rocks and but Spacey and out there and love it love
• 1:58:53
  it love it love it so it's. Moving us along, Do you like
• 1:58:55
  this or not? This one would go through for me
• 1:58:58
  100%. Well, it's being bent.
• 1:59:01
  I'm. Just.
• 1:59:02
  Sad. Moving on, everyone else is
• 1:59:05
  just. We're.
• 1:59:07
  All desperate to find things to say somehow we've got on for 40
• 1:59:10
  minutes about the bloody story. OK, so before we go into the
• 1:59:14
  next set of stories, let's go to our final set of overview
• 1:59:18
  comments from our listeners. Tim Fraser, would you like to
• 1:59:21
  lead us away? Jason Thompson says, Is this a
• 1:59:26
  mess that reflects the constant changes behind the scenes, or a
• 1:59:30
  demonstration of the show's resilience?
• 1:59:32
  That you can almost entirely change the cast and production
• 1:59:35
  team and still produce something as brilliant and varied as this?
• 1:59:40
  Both, I think, a superb season and some absolute bangers.
• 1:59:45
  It's. Just the Dravins. 1 is great.
• 1:59:50
  And some absolute sizzlers there.
• 1:59:52
  You. Go Ding Dong.
• 1:59:55
  Yeah, if they went in BMI bargains, you'd buy them as
• 1:59:58
  well. What?
• 1:59:59
  So Dave Rennie. Hi, Dave.
• 2:00:03
  After a more ambitious and arguably better season 2, the
• 2:00:07
  third series goes darker than ever before.
• 2:00:10
  There are deaths closer to home, massacres in danger for the
• 2:00:14
  whole universe from the Daleks. Talk about bleak.
• 2:00:18
  It's great. David Gillespie Pratt, have you
• 2:00:23
  seen David's recent video on power?
• 2:00:25
  He's so good. Oh my God, that is just that.
• 2:00:29
  Just ticks all my boxes. He's he's.
• 2:00:32
  Amazing, David. Talking of season 3, did a
• 2:00:34
  lovely commentary on the myth makers.
• 2:00:36
  I know it was really great. It was really great.
• 2:00:39
  Anyway, Hello David, a year of huge change in front and behind
• 2:00:44
  the camera. The result is a series trying to
• 2:00:46
  find its feet again, but also trying different things.
• 2:00:49
  It's sad that there's so little surviving from these episodes as
• 2:00:53
  from what we can hear, this is bold stuff.
• 2:00:57
  Next up we have the wonderful Jim Allenby, a hugely chaotic
• 2:01:02
  time resulting in one of the darkest and most fascinating
• 2:01:05
  seasons of Doctor Who was done. It's not my all time favorite
• 2:01:09
  season, but it's definitely one of the best.
• 2:01:11
  It takes risks, tries different things and is brave and
• 2:01:15
  memorable. Darren Randalls Hello Darren,
• 2:01:19
  This has slipped in my appreciation and being missing
• 2:01:23
  plays a large part in that. You can never get going with it.
• 2:01:26
  With the art being the only complete story.
• 2:01:28
  Well, that's enough to put you off.
• 2:01:32
  Dan Hollingsworth Hi Dan, Exciting photographs of stories
• 2:01:36
  that no longer exist really inspired my imagination as a
• 2:01:39
  child. Iconic is a cliche, but there
• 2:01:42
  are lots of iconic moments. But the most chaotic season for
• 2:01:46
  the HR department and actors contracts.
• 2:01:50
  Daniel Knight. After a safe and steady second
• 2:01:52
  season, this goes experimental with an eclectic mix of stories.
• 2:01:56
  It's a shame we can't see much of it.
• 2:01:58
  Hartnell isn't tired or past it. He's still capable of putting in
• 2:02:01
  great performances and pizza. Purvis shines as Steven, even if
• 2:02:05
  the scripts let him down. See Galaxy 4 for that.
• 2:02:09
  OK, gentlemen, give me a big. Big.
• 2:02:13
  Give me an orange. Orange.
• 2:02:15
  Give Me a Michael Michael Big Orange Michael Season 3 sees
• 2:02:22
  Doctor Who trying to figure out if it can have sustained success
• 2:02:25
  when many of the original participants have departed,
• 2:02:28
  complete with some growing pains.
• 2:02:30
  It's the show at it's more creative, swinging for the
• 2:02:33
  fences and sometimes connecting, sometimes not.
• 2:02:36
  Michael Storm Hello Michael, Probably the grimmest era of who
• 2:02:41
  up until Saywood true, but remains watchable because the
• 2:02:46
  ideas, stories and writing are much better and not nasty for
• 2:02:50
  the sake of nasty. It is a shame that Tosh Wild era
• 2:02:56
  never truly got to flourish. And that leads me to wrap up
• 2:02:59
  with Matt Lee Newby. I love season 3 as a whole, but
• 2:03:03
  it's first half is possibly my favorite run of stories.
• 2:03:06
  The Massacre is my favorite Doctor Who story in the series.
• 2:03:09
  Leading up to it also rank incredibly high.
• 2:03:13
  What a guy. Yes, right.
• 2:03:16
  So we've left with Myth Makers Master Plan and the Ark.
• 2:03:20
  I'm going to leave our two guests to do probably the two
• 2:03:23
  biggest of that. And so I'm going to go for the
• 2:03:27
  fun that is the Ark, and obviously I am going to champion
• 2:03:32
  the Ark, if for no other reason than it has possibly my favorite
• 2:03:37
  line in all of Doctor Holmes. In episode 3, the shuttle brings
• 2:03:43
  the Doctor Dodo and the monoids to refuse his toe.
• 2:03:47
  Dodo is a little suspicious and she looks the monoid and says,
• 2:03:51
  are you up to something? The mono goes.
• 2:03:55
  No. I was going to quote the same.
• 2:03:59
  Bloody line. It is the most brilliant bit of
• 2:04:02
  Doctor Who. The fact 2 minutes later he
• 2:04:05
  nearly trips out for the scenery as well as he walks into the
• 2:04:08
  castle. They thought they were going to
• 2:04:10
  go for send them to the security kitchen.
• 2:04:13
  Oh. God, what it is.
• 2:04:15
  I'd absolutely fucking love the arc and we'll come to our read
• 2:04:19
  listeners comments. There's not an awful lot of love
• 2:04:22
  for it, but I think this is a great, great story.
• 2:04:24
  So first reason is it doesn't do what's expected.
• 2:04:27
  And I think this is a story that subverts expectations at every
• 2:04:31
  turn. Obviously the obvious example is
• 2:04:35
  the cliffhanger at the end of episode 2.
• 2:04:36
  Great rug poll. You don't know that we've come
• 2:04:38
  back to the same place. But I think there's so much more
• 2:04:41
  in this story for subverts expectations.
• 2:04:44
  So for example, in the second-half of the story we see
• 2:04:47
  the oppressed monoids and that they've turned on the humans.
• 2:04:50
  So naturally, if you think about it, you'd have expected parts
• 2:04:53
  one and two to set that up and show the kind of exploitation
• 2:04:56
  and the disharmony. But we don't actually have that.
• 2:04:59
  We've got quite a kind of self-contained tale in which the
• 2:05:02
  monoids, it's a really just kind of window dressing in the future
• 2:05:05
  world. In fact, they're even described
• 2:05:07
  as friends and the legal counsel defers to their judgement.
• 2:05:11
  So yeah, we do see them seeing doing some menial work, but it's
• 2:05:14
  not that kind of cliche black and white that they are trade
• 2:05:17
  treated as a slave race, which I think makes it more interesting.
• 2:05:22
  It possibly makes it a little bit harder in the second-half to
• 2:05:25
  kind of reconcile their their rebellion against being a slave
• 2:05:30
  because they're not treated like that.
• 2:05:31
  But I think it just makes it a more interesting and a more
• 2:05:33
  nuanced story. I also think the production is
• 2:05:37
  massively unexpected as well. So imagine if you can that this
• 2:05:40
  was like mission to the Unknown or myth makers where you've got
• 2:05:43
  very little photographic evidence.
• 2:05:45
  Would you honestly have imagined that in Episode 1 you'd have
• 2:05:48
  this huge jungle set you'd have shipped in?
• 2:05:52
  You know, monitor lizards and a great fucking elephant?
• 2:05:54
  For God's sake. Shoot it with these huge
• 2:05:57
  towering crane shots that look down on the IT looks
• 2:06:01
  spectacular. It looks almost feature film
• 2:06:03
  standard. But this is like mid 1960s
• 2:06:06
  run-of-the-mill Dr. Who I think is so bold and original in what
• 2:06:10
  it's doing. Again, that kind of subverts
• 2:06:12
  what you expect on a kind of story like this.
• 2:06:16
  Dodo's cold, yes, it's got more mutations than COVID because it
• 2:06:20
  changes every time somebody has it.
• 2:06:22
  It is just a common cold, even though Stephen nearly dies of
• 2:06:26
  it. But I think that's quite
• 2:06:27
  interesting because obviously to audiences at the time that we're
• 2:06:29
  probably more familiar with the literary classics than the
• 2:06:31
  thoughts of War of the Worlds with the common cold affecting
• 2:06:34
  the aliens. But again, Doctor Who does
• 2:06:36
  something different here when we solve that.
• 2:06:38
  So I think there's lots of things going on.
• 2:06:41
  And yes, then we get to part three and four, and
• 2:06:43
  unfortunately, the effects of the unexpected is that we got a
• 2:06:46
  slightly more the shade story in the second-half.
• 2:06:49
  But the first half alone, I think is definitely worth the
• 2:06:52
  admission price if nothing else. My second point is the doctor in
• 2:06:56
  Hartnell. Now, as we've just, you know,
• 2:06:58
  heard from some of the comments on the overall season, a lot of
• 2:07:01
  people draw parallels with this with Saywood because yes,
• 2:07:04
  there's an upsurge in violence. There are a lot more deaths,
• 2:07:06
  there's a lot more downbeat endings.
• 2:07:08
  Plus the show isn't popular in the production office.
• 2:07:11
  The lead certainly isn't like constantly trying to find ways
• 2:07:14
  to write him out as Seyward was with Colin.
• 2:07:16
  But whereas in the 80s that results in Seyward diminishing
• 2:07:20
  the Doctor. I think the opposite is true,
• 2:07:22
  particularly in a story like this, because I think both here,
• 2:07:25
  Harnell and the character of the Doctor really shine in this.
• 2:07:29
  So you can't tell the at this stage that Hartnell is not
• 2:07:32
  getting on with Tosh and Wiles. You can't tell that he's unsure
• 2:07:35
  about Jackie Lane who's just been brought.
• 2:07:37
  I mean, look, just look at his chemistry with Dodo alone.
• 2:07:40
  Dodo is a, you know, like her or lover or like her or lover even.
• 2:07:44
  But Harnell's reaction to in a chemistry with her, it's
• 2:07:48
  marvelous. We might want to slap her, but
• 2:07:50
  he's constantly touching her and holding her.
• 2:07:52
  He holds a hand in the shuttle. He's got such a twinkle and a
• 2:07:55
  smile with her. Yes, he constantly kind of
• 2:07:57
  berates her for her poor use of English.
• 2:08:00
  For her northern accent. For a Manchester accent.
• 2:08:03
  Oh dare you have a Northern accent, child?
• 2:08:06
  But he does think with such charm and elegance.
• 2:08:08
  There's no throttling of the companion here.
• 2:08:10
  He's great. And I think the Doctor, the
• 2:08:12
  character of the Doctor also gets many great moments.
• 2:08:15
  This. And the main one that kind of
• 2:08:17
  really hits me is that he treats all the different races without
• 2:08:20
  any kind of bias or suspicion or misapprehension.
• 2:08:24
  He treats everyone as equal, so he works with the monoids in
• 2:08:27
  Part 2 when they're kind of trying to find the antidote he
• 2:08:30
  sponsors saying, oh, I don't know how I'd cope without you.
• 2:08:32
  And then when they go down to the refuses, his first one just
• 2:08:35
  sits down to have a chat with the refusing.
• 2:08:37
  It's great. And he's only he's only real
• 2:08:39
  condemnation, ironically, is of the humans where he talks about
• 2:08:43
  their intolerance and their selfishness and what I love most
• 2:08:47
  of all. And they use it twice in the
• 2:08:48
  story. I think again, I would put it
• 2:08:51
  through just for this if I'm talking about the Doctor going
• 2:08:53
  forward with hope and understanding, which I think is
• 2:08:55
  such a brilliant line and brilliant summary of Doctor Who
• 2:08:58
  at this stage because it's so Doctor Y.
• 2:09:01
  And finally, my third reason is the ambition.
• 2:09:03
  This is not a production team that are knackered after doing
• 2:09:06
  12 weeks of dialect master plan. There's so much going on now
• 2:09:09
  before it talks about the jungle set, but then you think you've
• 2:09:12
  got refuses to that they go to. You've got the the monoids,
• 2:09:15
  which I think are quite interesting depiction of an
• 2:09:17
  alien race. Although what a shame we've got
• 2:09:19
  sashes again after the sense rights.
• 2:09:21
  We've got all the the practical effects that they use to show
• 2:09:24
  their refusions. You've got a huge cast, a load
• 2:09:27
  of extras, all different genders and ages.
• 2:09:30
  You've got a well realized spaceship if you've got that
• 2:09:32
  giant statue, you've got lots of four perspective sets.
• 2:09:36
  Actually, it's a really handsome production.
• 2:09:37
  There's so much going on in this.
• 2:09:39
  It's 4 episodes that never stand still in comparison to Galaxy 4
• 2:09:43
  and I love it and I want to put it through.
• 2:09:46
  Mirror shots as well. There's a couple of shots, you
• 2:09:49
  know where the the feet of the statue looking down.
• 2:09:51
  It's quite clever. Yeah, and Michael Emerson's
• 2:09:53
  direction is just really innovative and trying lots of
• 2:09:56
  new things and, and works for, again, for a mid 60s Doctor Who
• 2:09:59
  works incredibly well. Just think of that shots of the
• 2:10:02
  statue, you know, the slow pan up the statue works really,
• 2:10:05
  really well, so. Yeah, the backdrop with the
• 2:10:08
  ceiling, you know, the sort of wide shot of the control room
• 2:10:12
  and that's. I always look at it and go.
• 2:10:14
  Did they build that? Like looks so good.
• 2:10:17
  And. Even seeing that.
• 2:10:18
  The. Steel Sky.
• 2:10:19
  I mean, you know, these are effects that really well done in
• 2:10:22
  other productions would really struggle.
• 2:10:26
  Yeah, OK. The the space the craft going
• 2:10:28
  off to refuses to on the bits of string maybe don't look so
• 2:10:31
  great. But you know what?
• 2:10:33
  They're doing so much in this story.
• 2:10:34
  God bless them. So let's go to the comments.
• 2:10:38
  King Gizzard, Thank you. King Gizzard says this is the
• 2:10:41
  only dud here. It starts off promisingly, but
• 2:10:44
  when the premises flipped at midpoint, it goes silly and off
• 2:10:47
  the rails. Also, Dodo's accent is all over
• 2:10:49
  the place. Before King Gizzard's name was
• 2:10:52
  melodramatic, messed or the magnificent says intelligent
• 2:10:56
  scripting concepts are cracking to all this team and fun
• 2:10:59
  Monsters is such a clever idea I've never understood fandoms
• 2:11:03
  apathy towards it. Bobby Dazzler says some people
• 2:11:07
  can't see beyond the Monoids, which is rather a shame as
• 2:11:10
  shuffling bound legs aside, they're not that bad.
• 2:11:13
  The ping pong ball in the mouth works and is creepy, and I've
• 2:11:16
  seen worse wigs. These fans deserve the security
• 2:11:19
  kitchen. The very polite Robert Manners
• 2:11:22
  says we're fortunate it survives.
• 2:11:25
  I often think of it as two stories in one very good script,
• 2:11:28
  and the monoid scheming is unknown to the humans.
• 2:11:31
  James Lark says after a run of death horror, an occasional
• 2:11:34
  slapstick, this feels rather benign.
• 2:11:36
  But as soon as you realize the Monoids are sporting not only
• 2:11:39
  her megalomania but also Anne Widdecombe iconic 1990s bowl
• 2:11:44
  cuts, it becomes a more alarming affair.
• 2:11:47
  Jason Thompson says a decent premise and some wonderful
• 2:11:50
  direction, but in the end, the monoids are defeated because
• 2:11:53
  they just won't bloody shut up about their plans.
• 2:11:56
  But visually, this is incredible.
• 2:11:59
  Just when you think you've got stopped because you have an
• 2:12:00
  elephant, the TARDIS crew walk up to it.
• 2:12:02
  The high shots, the use of complicated special effects just
• 2:12:06
  to show some potatoes being prepped.
• 2:12:08
  Oh yeah, the pan up the statue. I think he likes it it.
• 2:12:12
  Does Andy Parkinson's is probably my favorite story in
• 2:12:15
  this selection. Yes, it's massively come, but
• 2:12:17
  it's just so much fun. I mean, it's got a fucking
• 2:12:19
  security kitchen. How can you hate a story with
• 2:12:22
  Baton? Keep it and let it win.
• 2:12:24
  Darren lit roundels. Oh it's rubbish.
• 2:12:27
  It's got one good cliffhanger but the story is such a dirge
• 2:12:29
  with atrocious acting and endless wide shots of dull sets
• 2:12:33
  that don't communicate any drama.
• 2:12:35
  Short. More like 1960s Blue Peter
• 2:12:38
  design is rubbish. One of the worst Arnolds.
• 2:12:41
  Darren lit roundels. I couldn't disagree with you
• 2:12:42
  more. David Gillespie practice.
• 2:12:44
  Hurrah for the fact that it all moves.
• 2:12:46
  That's a good reason reason to keep it, and it's bold and it's
• 2:12:49
  production. Shame about the Guardian
• 2:12:51
  costumes. Jack Coyer The halfway
• 2:12:53
  cliffhanger got me excited the first time I saw it.
• 2:12:56
  The first two parts are an engaging mix of courtroom drama,
• 2:12:59
  and the second-half is an alien revolution sort of mix of Keys
• 2:13:03
  of Mariners and Space Museum. Who knows what Dodo would have
• 2:13:06
  spread if this if this? Oh please.
• 2:13:09
  Who knows what Dodo would have spread if this followed the
• 2:13:12
  novel The Man in the Velvet Mask.
• 2:13:14
  Is that space syphilis? Yeah.
• 2:13:16
  Probably. Quilpin Pigoneer says the worst.
• 2:13:20
  It's everything Doctor Who didn't usually do.
• 2:13:22
  Tacky sci-fi, badly designed aliens, some awful acting.
• 2:13:26
  The plot runs out in episode 2. Doctor Who always had
• 2:13:29
  interesting aliens, but monoids are basic at best.
• 2:13:32
  No world building. Jim Allenby, Darth, but
• 2:13:35
  entertaining with some very comical villains in the Monoids.
• 2:13:38
  The plot device of returning to the Ark 700 years later halfway
• 2:13:41
  through, though, is an operative.
• 2:13:44
  The direction is complex and it's great to see more use of
• 2:13:47
  modern work. It's also a lot of fun.
• 2:13:50
  Well Smise is a fun story with a great twist halfway through.
• 2:13:53
  The monoids do look daft and Dodo is annoying, but on the
• 2:13:55
  whole I like this one. How many comments were there on
• 2:13:59
  this Anthony Carroll? Whichever 1 you are, bar me Fun
• 2:14:03
  with a good twist. Let down by speaking monoids,
• 2:14:05
  security, kitchen and ornament smashing.
• 2:14:08
  Van Hollingsworth says quite peculiar, with an interesting
• 2:14:10
  space civilization and ridiculous for highly watchable
• 2:14:13
  monsters. The consequences of Dodo having
• 2:14:15
  a cold make for a good plot, and later in the season, the
• 2:14:18
  doctor's toothache leads to another story.
• 2:14:22
  Daniel Knight penultimate comment here.
• 2:14:24
  Pure camp daft sci-fi with silly costumes and monsters.
• 2:14:28
  He tries to be epic even, but some of the more space acting
• 2:14:32
  performances are painful. Jackie Lane's accent travels
• 2:14:35
  more than Michael Palin. And finally, Matt Lee Newby says
• 2:14:38
  not entirely successful but still a good story, but I wish
• 2:14:42
  it'd been split in two and shown either side of Toy Maker, with a
• 2:14:45
  conclusion coming as a surprise sequel.
• 2:14:48
  But it lightens the tone and leads the viewers into a new
• 2:14:50
  era, albeit a brief 1. Then over to you.
• 2:14:53
  What do you think of the R? Well, my comments are very
• 2:14:58
  similar to yours Rod, but I'm binning it, so I thought.
• 2:15:08
  So these is a brilliant 2 parter to open with one caveat, which
• 2:15:12
  I'll come back to the first two parts.
• 2:15:15
  It could be an out of the unknown, a voyage across the
• 2:15:18
  centuries looking for a new home, millions of people stored
• 2:15:21
  in databanks, a self-sustaining city in space.
• 2:15:24
  And it's a brilliant concept. It is.
• 2:15:30
  And then it's back to the core concept of the show for me to
• 2:15:34
  educate. So what happens when you
• 2:15:37
  introduce the common cold? It's, it's both War of the
• 2:15:43
  Worlds and it's a bit of an allegory for the colonization of
• 2:15:48
  the Americas, Australia and so on.
• 2:15:50
  So I really think that's nice. And that gives me a warm and
• 2:15:53
  cozy feeling because it feels like it could be sensor rights,
• 2:16:00
  you know, coming around there. And there's science as well.
• 2:16:05
  Hi, drama. Stephen on trial for his life.
• 2:16:08
  And the doctor saves the day with science and he looks like a
• 2:16:11
  scientist and he acts like a scientist.
• 2:16:13
  And then there's courtroom drama and a man shouts from his
• 2:16:17
  deathbed to issue a last minute reprieve.
• 2:16:19
  I think episodes 1 and 2 are really great.
• 2:16:24
  The design is great, as you said, Rod, it's ambitious.
• 2:16:28
  There's an elephant. There's there's some great
• 2:16:32
  direction like, you know, at the moment that always surprises me.
• 2:16:36
  And it shouldn't is when they emerge on that raised area and
• 2:16:41
  all the monoids are around on the floor and they stand up.
• 2:16:45
  It looks really great. But then it becomes a question
• 2:16:53
  of tolerance for me. And I've got some specific
• 2:17:00
  nitpicks which don't get talked about too often, but these
• 2:17:04
  really grind my gears. So at the start, you know, when
• 2:17:08
  they've got a really neat inlay shot of the guy being shrunk and
• 2:17:11
  put in the cupboard, The commander, Eric, sorry I forgot
• 2:17:17
  his name, but played by Eric, says to his number 2, are the
• 2:17:23
  monoids happy with this? Right.
• 2:17:26
  And so number two turns to the monoid and does that.
• 2:17:29
  He just waves one hand across the other and the monoid
• 2:17:35
  expresses consent. Did the monoids understand
• 2:17:39
  English or not? That monoid must have understood
• 2:17:44
  the entire courtroom proceedings, everything that was
• 2:17:48
  said. And then they have to sign
• 2:17:51
  sometimes to the monoid. It kills me and sometimes the
• 2:17:55
  the sign language to the monoids is like rodent scurrying to
• 2:18:00
  express a very long situation, you know, turn of events.
• 2:18:07
  I just don't know why they're doing it.
• 2:18:09
  I don't understand it and I am embarrassed to see it.
• 2:18:11
  So that's my first problem. The second problem is everyone
• 2:18:15
  will know it's just the monoids are pretty awful.
• 2:18:17
  And when I say awful, you've got all this brilliant, beautiful
• 2:18:20
  design work. The jungle is fantastic.
• 2:18:23
  They do lots of cutting with films to do complex shots with
• 2:18:27
  animals. And and then I'm sorry, but I
• 2:18:32
  think the ping pong ball in the mouth is a complete disaster.
• 2:18:36
  I just think it's it's awful as soon as you see it, it can't be
• 2:18:39
  undone. And monoid #4 he keeps
• 2:18:41
  forgetting to keep his mouth open, so he ends up doing this
• 2:18:46
  weird pants a lot of the time. And then worst of all, you've
• 2:18:50
  got all of this fantastic design and then they've obviously run
• 2:18:54
  out of money because they've got a piece of card around their
• 2:18:58
  neck which they have to remember to flip.
• 2:19:01
  And they're really good at remembering to flip it most of
• 2:19:04
  the time. And it just sucks all of the
• 2:19:07
  life out of their performance. Every time they want to speak,
• 2:19:10
  they have to remember to put their hands down on their chest
• 2:19:13
  and flick the little card. With their number on it.
• 2:19:18
  Well, the numbers on this anyway.
• 2:19:19
  It doesn't matter. Yes, that thing.
• 2:19:22
  I find it completely distracting and annoying and irritating, and
• 2:19:25
  I don't like getting irritated about these things, but if I do,
• 2:19:28
  I just think it's a stupid choice after all the great stuff
• 2:19:31
  that that's going on. There's a scene with Dodo where
• 2:19:34
  the monoid reveals the plan. I mean, you've put it as a, dare
• 2:19:38
  I say, an ironic plus. You haven't heard from me yet?
• 2:19:46
  And then and then but all the brilliance of the design and
• 2:19:49
  I'll tell you what's good that the pods, the the landing crafts
• 2:19:53
  when they're on the ground with that articulated unfolding door.
• 2:19:57
  That's really nice stuff. But then they go into this twee
• 2:20:00
  little cottage with floral decorations.
• 2:20:03
  Floral decorations for it's a. Castle.
• 2:20:07
  It's a twee little cottage. And then the monoid expressing
• 2:20:11
  his great power by smashing vases.
• 2:20:14
  I, I just. It's such a misstep.
• 2:20:18
  There's one bit that amuses me for the wrong reason, and it's
• 2:20:22
  just a little mistake in the scripting.
• 2:20:24
  It's not the editing, but they could have edited around it.
• 2:20:28
  In episode 2, there's a monoid that dies and they wrap it in a
• 2:20:31
  shroud and they carry it on the shoulders with great ceremony
• 2:20:34
  and respect. And then they put it on the cart
• 2:20:38
  and a monoid drives it off and goes to a big airlock door.
• 2:20:43
  And then the airlock door closes and then too early the human
• 2:20:49
  says it's over. So it looks like the monoid on
• 2:20:53
  the cart and the monoid and the shroud have just been booted out
• 2:20:59
  into space. Then it's over.
• 2:21:02
  And then they cut to the model work of the little little monkey
• 2:21:07
  nut being shot into space. But yes, it's it does.
• 2:21:11
  Yes. I just have less tolerance for
• 2:21:15
  these things than you do, Rod. And therefore I'm I'm kicking
• 2:21:19
  out. One last thing though.
• 2:21:23
  I see what they're doing with the writing.
• 2:21:25
  I don't mind the plotting. It's a bit of back and forth in
• 2:21:27
  the second-half, but I find that the normal of having the
• 2:21:31
  refusian who can fit in their tweet little cottage just
• 2:21:36
  picking up that statue at the end and throwing it out the
• 2:21:39
  airlock. I find that a complete cop out.
• 2:21:43
  They've run out of ideas, they've run out of time.
• 2:21:46
  It looks quite good when it comes out the airlock, but no,
• 2:21:49
  not for me. And then go on, Rob, sorry.
• 2:21:53
  The worst bits when he's picking it up because it's right near to
• 2:21:56
  the roof is it. Yes, just going to go up and up
• 2:22:00
  and up and up and up and up, yeah.
• 2:22:02
  How tall is the roof? Yeah, so it could have been
• 2:22:06
  brilliant and they could have stopped after two parts
• 2:22:08
  actually, and I would be really happy.
• 2:22:10
  And you know, the twist is brilliant, the cliffhanger is
• 2:22:13
  brilliant, but it they just did too much with it for me, so it's
• 2:22:18
  in the bin. Fraser, Champion of the damned.
• 2:22:23
  Well, it's not often I agree with Rod.
• 2:22:27
  You said that last time and then disagreed with me.
• 2:22:30
  Yeah, and that's happening exactly this time as well.
• 2:22:34
  It's, it's not very good, is it? What was it you that said
• 2:22:40
  something about the the production team?
• 2:22:43
  It's the end of their team. Yeah.
• 2:22:46
  It's not. This is the new production team,
• 2:22:50
  just like Galaxy 4 was John Wales running the show with Very
• 2:22:57
  Lamb. But looking over them.
• 2:22:58
  This is in this Lloyd. This is in this Lloyd's first go
• 2:23:01
  out and John Wales is doing exactly the same as Very Lamb,
• 2:23:03
  but did with him. He's just, you know, supervising
• 2:23:07
  what his name is on it. OK, so this is in this Lloyd and
• 2:23:10
  Jerry Davis doing their thing and it really shows for me.
• 2:23:14
  It's very I'm at our in its in its production.
• 2:23:21
  It's very there's novice feel about it.
• 2:23:24
  And I know you've, you've taught in positive terms about Michael
• 2:23:29
  Amerson's direction. And I watched this back, you
• 2:23:33
  know, I watched it this time a few years back and wasn't really
• 2:23:35
  taken with it. And we'll come to that in a
• 2:23:37
  minute. And I watched it again in
• 2:23:39
  preparation for this. And I saw all those directorial
• 2:23:42
  flourishes. I saw all the, the, you know,
• 2:23:44
  the boom, the crane shots, the, the zooms in and, and
• 2:23:48
  everything. And I just kind of SAT and I
• 2:23:52
  thought, well, it's, it's doing all this stuff.
• 2:23:54
  So why am I not enjoying it? Why am I not, you know, feeling
• 2:23:58
  the love And it finally figured out it's because this is what
• 2:24:02
  would happen if you let me direct the Doctor Who story,
• 2:24:05
  because I know sod all about directing.
• 2:24:08
  Absolutely sod all. I mean, you guys come on here
• 2:24:10
  all the time and go, oh, Pennant Roberts is a rubbish director.
• 2:24:13
  And I go, no, he's not He's classic.
• 2:24:15
  I enjoy all his stores. He.
• 2:24:18
  Never moves a camera. Yeah, but you know, I, I don't
• 2:24:21
  understand this. I don't.
• 2:24:22
  Have long running gun battles when they're stood literally 2
• 2:24:25
  inches. Away from directing a piece of
• 2:24:27
  theatre, he's directing a television show.
• 2:24:30
  I enjoy it, I watch it. I don't see a problem, you know,
• 2:24:32
  So when people say. You enjoy Galaxy 4?
• 2:24:35
  Yes, because it's good. It's great fun.
• 2:24:37
  Happiness patrol pipe down. And so it's you know, it's I,
• 2:24:45
  you know, like I said, I'm don't know the technical aspect.
• 2:24:47
  I just, you know, watch this and you know, and just nod along ago
• 2:24:52
  a nice director. And so if you give me a Doctor
• 2:24:55
  Who story to do, I would probably go all out and say, Oh,
• 2:24:58
  yeah, it's going to have jazzy angles and crazy zooms and all
• 2:25:02
  the rest. And I think that's what Michael
• 2:25:03
  I'merson's doing. He's just shook and everything
• 2:25:05
  at the screen and and he doesn't have much of A career.
• 2:25:08
  No, he got. Quite after this.
• 2:25:11
  Yeah. So he doesn't, he doesn't come
• 2:25:13
  back to Doctor Who, he doesn't stay with the BBC.
• 2:25:16
  I think the story is that the head of drama or the head of
• 2:25:20
  serials and he had a fallen out with his wife.
• 2:25:24
  So you kind of thought, oh, look at this, I'm going off to ITV
• 2:25:27
  and it was immediately followed by said head of drama or CEO's
• 2:25:31
  and you know, again, quit directing and went off to be a
• 2:25:36
  agent or right or something else.
• 2:25:38
  But you know, it it, it kind of speaks, you know, that he's he's
• 2:25:41
  hasn't got a career as a director because this isn't a
• 2:25:43
  very well directed story for me. It's just too, too flashy.
• 2:25:47
  Yes, there's innovation and I know Michael, I'm kind of
• 2:25:50
  pioneer. I'm going to film things out of
• 2:25:52
  order, so, you know, I'm not going to take you from one set
• 2:25:54
  over the other side of the studio and bring you back again.
• 2:25:56
  We'll just do everything all in one, you know, everything that
• 2:25:59
  we need to shoot on this set, we'll do.
• 2:26:00
  And everything we do over there, we'll do.
• 2:26:01
  So there is, there is, and it is, you know, but it just
• 2:26:04
  doesn't, it doesn't gel. It doesn't come together.
• 2:26:07
  It doesn't work for me at all. And in terms of the production,
• 2:26:11
  there's a suggestion that Ennis Lloyd did the classic thing of
• 2:26:16
  spunk all his money on this this serial.
• 2:26:20
  You know, he brought elephants in, he bought lizards in, he
• 2:26:22
  bought big massive jungle in and didn't have anything left for
• 2:26:26
  the next story, which is Celestial toy maker.
• 2:26:29
  So why does the Celestial toy maker look so shit?
• 2:26:31
  It's because in this Lloyd smoked all the budget on the
• 2:26:33
  arc. So yeah, it's nice to have an
• 2:26:36
  elephant there. But you know, would you rather
• 2:26:38
  have an elephant in the room or would you rather have nicer
• 2:26:41
  looking toy maker? I haven't quenched the numbers.
• 2:26:45
  I don't know whether that how accurate that is, but that's
• 2:26:48
  that's a suspicion there. So it is just very kind of
• 2:26:52
  novice who was the writer. I forget who the writer is, but
• 2:26:56
  they don't come back either. And his wife.
• 2:27:02
  Scott. And his ex-wife, who had to have
• 2:27:06
  a name on for reasons unknown. But it's it's, it is.
• 2:27:12
  It's a fantastic idea, isn't it, This idea that the tortoise is
• 2:27:14
  going to land the same place twice and it's just going to be
• 2:27:17
  a sideways story and it's going to be tiny whiny and it's going
• 2:27:20
  to be what's happened in 700 years down.
• 2:27:22
  It just isn't made enough of. It's an absolute missed
• 2:27:25
  opportunity. And I think part of this is is
• 2:27:28
  probably a little bit of a disappointment for me because,
• 2:27:31
  you know, I would read things like the program guide, which
• 2:27:34
  would, you know, spell out exactly, you know, what the
• 2:27:37
  story is, is the monoids are the slaves to start with.
• 2:27:39
  And then in parts 3 and 4, the monoids have turned the tables.
• 2:27:42
  And but it's not the monoids aren't the slaves at the start.
• 2:27:45
  It's, it's like you said, what it's, it's, that's not how it's
• 2:27:47
  presented. The monoids are being presented
• 2:27:50
  equally as equals to the guardians and the humans.
• 2:27:53
  And you know that that flip over then becomes a little bit
• 2:27:57
  troubling. It's kind of like, well, if we
• 2:27:58
  do make this a slave reality now we're seeing that the slaves
• 2:28:01
  deserve to be slaves because if you unslave them, then they are
• 2:28:04
  nasty people. And I'm not sure how well that
• 2:28:07
  sits with me. But ultimately the monoids are a
• 2:28:10
  bit rubbish. The bobbins aren't there.
• 2:28:12
  I mean, I'm not going to the costumes because, you know, as I
• 2:28:17
  said about Galaxy 4 and the sets, you know, this is Doctor
• 2:28:19
  Who. This is what it does.
• 2:28:20
  It does, you know, obviously the money's been spent on the
• 2:28:23
  elephant and not the monoids. But this is just the concept of
• 2:28:27
  the monoids is just bizarre and bollocks.
• 2:28:32
  You know, it's like the idea that, you know, the, this race
• 2:28:37
  of creatures came to Earth and you know, they've got the
• 2:28:40
  technology to, you know, shrink people and put everyone on this
• 2:28:44
  big massive city in space and blast them off to a new planet.
• 2:28:47
  And, you know, they can't speak. But you know, the humans need to
• 2:28:51
  have to give them the cardboard colours that help them speak
• 2:28:53
  And, and after, you know, the, the cold thing and the, the take
• 2:28:59
  control. And in all the 700 years, the
• 2:29:01
  best they can come up with is 123.
• 2:29:06
  And look at this guy's 4. To be fair, to be fair,
• 2:29:10
  sometimes when they say Juan it sounds like they're saying Juan.
• 2:29:19
  So I like to think one of them is Spanish and then the rest
• 2:29:23
  are. I'd love to see a monoid in the
• 2:29:26
  sombrero now. You know the.
• 2:29:30
  The costume doesn't help because they have got this sort of like
• 2:29:33
  webbed legs affair going on. So they're just kind of waddling
• 2:29:36
  like a Penguin and you're kind of like how of these guys?
• 2:29:39
  Yes, they've got a a gun, but this gun is massive, you know,
• 2:29:43
  and then we'll just the try and take one off one in the security
• 2:29:46
  kitchen and one of them get zapped.
• 2:29:48
  But you know, come on, it's not that hard.
• 2:29:49
  It can't be that hard to snatch because that's the only thing
• 2:29:52
  they've got going for them. That's all.
• 2:29:55
  I'm so sorry. It's just got to say this is 1
• 2:29:57
  monoid, I think it's number 99 and he's got a short haircut.
• 2:30:05
  What? Aliens should not, but.
• 2:30:07
  Run out of wake. So it's got a really.
• 2:30:09
  Anyway, sorry, I'm so sorry. That elephant's literally eating
• 2:30:12
  the budget and they've got no left for the hair.
• 2:30:14
  So yeah, they've got, I mean, come on, they've got, they've
• 2:30:17
  got no mobility, they've got no deaf perception.
• 2:30:19
  How difficult can it be to actually overrun the monoids,
• 2:30:23
  even if you've got a bit of a bit of man flu?
• 2:30:26
  Do you not see how ineffective those humans were though?
• 2:30:29
  They are possibly the wettest group of humans you've ever
• 2:30:32
  seen. But I mean, I think the worst
• 2:30:34
  thing about the monoids, the thing that really, you know,
• 2:30:38
  grains, Mcgears and winds is up the most is monoid #1's hand
• 2:30:42
  acting. Because it's just, it's, you
• 2:30:45
  know, it's like is that you haven't got a face monitor
• 2:30:47
  number one. So you're going to have to do
• 2:30:49
  something sweet. Literally.
• 2:30:49
  It's so over zealous. And again, quite novice, you
• 2:30:55
  know, it's quite, you know, drama school of and so I'm
• 2:30:58
  slagging a mock guy off. He's doing a difficult job under
• 2:31:02
  latex and wigs and with ping pong.
• 2:31:04
  Ball is not a highlight of his career.
• 2:31:06
  In his mouth but you know it's all just in you know those who
• 2:31:09
  listen to my to the season 21 know how much Michael Goff's
• 2:31:12
  hand acting in argument Infinity one goes up and this is worse.
• 2:31:14
  This is just off the scale so. Yeah.
• 2:31:17
  It's just not and. I mean he has to stop his hand
• 2:31:23
  acting every time he wants to speak because he has to go and
• 2:31:25
  push his bloody and flap his. Arms around you'll do.
• 2:31:30
  It's all semaphore and. The more he does as well, the
• 2:31:33
  more you can see the glove on the end of his hand because it
• 2:31:35
  becomes more and. More.
• 2:31:36
  Obvious the more he twists his wrist.
• 2:31:39
  The the costumes who mentioned the costumes?
• 2:31:42
  Because was it you, Rob? That said, the costumes are are
• 2:31:45
  fun in this. I don't think I was.
• 2:31:48
  Going to say it because. It wasn't one of my lines of
• 2:31:50
  defence. I don't think I'm quite that
• 2:31:52
  mad. No one, not one single person,
• 2:31:54
  gets to criticize the. Oh, they are very reminiscent of
• 2:31:59
  the costumes in the Dominators. The Dominators curtain costume
• 2:32:03
  because this is like those curtains you see in shops where
• 2:32:06
  you keep the flying, you know, you the shop get what comes out
• 2:32:08
  the back and it's just. Especially when that old man's
• 2:32:10
  wearing it. Yeah, I mean, he wants to.
• 2:32:13
  Look at that. There's just so many little bits
• 2:32:16
  where it's just, it's just normal, like they've got that
• 2:32:18
  model shot where the pod comes out and it just cuts the minute
• 2:32:22
  the pod is about to come out because it's the same model shot
• 2:32:24
  of all the other pods coming out to go down.
• 2:32:27
  So they can only use that particular bit.
• 2:32:29
  And it's it's very like that'll do.
• 2:32:31
  There's a scene where the the camera is pointing at the ground
• 2:32:34
  and they're just and it flips up to fill in the scene and they're
• 2:32:36
  just like, Oh yeah, that'll do. It's just so like blacks a days
• 2:32:40
  ago and what not, but the last thing I'm going to I'm going to
• 2:32:44
  slate this for because we're didn't really touch on it in in
• 2:32:48
  the story that comes before this.
• 2:32:49
  It's Dodo, because I'm sorry, Dodo was fucking annoying.
• 2:32:56
  She's it's going. To get worse.
• 2:33:00
  I love Dodo, all right, I'm going to get to the second-half
• 2:33:03
  of this season. Second chunk.
• 2:33:06
  And I, you know, I don't want to go down the route of slag and
• 2:33:10
  Jackie laying off and criticizing her performance
• 2:33:13
  because it's it's it's very similar to male.
• 2:33:18
  Then Bonnie Langford, you know, they've been brought in to do
• 2:33:22
  with job and the professional professional like that.
• 2:33:24
  So they're going to come in and they're going to do a job.
• 2:33:26
  And she gets told in the massacre be northern.
• 2:33:28
  And then she gets told the next week, don't be northern.
• 2:33:31
  But you know, we'll work stuff out in rehearsal.
• 2:33:33
  And it's it's slipping through and and whatnot.
• 2:33:36
  But I just find a way daughter was written in this is just so
• 2:33:41
  annoying. The first thing she does.
• 2:33:44
  I mean she skips out the TARDIS. Oh, I've been with and just full
• 2:33:49
  I'm just getting the TARDIS and leave her.
• 2:33:51
  Was that right? I don't care what's what's on
• 2:33:53
  here me and you're back in here. You can stay.
• 2:33:55
  I'm off just the whole concept. You know she runs into this
• 2:34:00
  police box on. Wimbledon Common.
• 2:34:03
  Wimbledon Common. Yeah.
• 2:34:05
  And you know, it's big on the inside, but.
• 2:34:07
  Oh, that's fine. I'll.
• 2:34:08
  I'll go off in time and space with you.
• 2:34:09
  I don't care. I've got no family.
• 2:34:10
  That's wonderful. I'll get changed.
• 2:34:12
  I'll. I'll snip out the back there and
• 2:34:14
  get changed into someone else's clothes, and then we'll go out
• 2:34:16
  in the neck. No, it's just unbelievably
• 2:34:20
  unbelievable. And it's just.
• 2:34:23
  Yeah, irritates us a little bit. So the arc's in the bin.
• 2:34:28
  But those reasons? Joe, the arc is already in the
• 2:34:31
  bin. I'm not sure there's too much
• 2:34:33
  more to say if I want it, so I'll be brief.
• 2:34:36
  I tell you find a bit really funny, though, where he goes, Oh
• 2:34:39
  my child, you know, come on now, don't cry.
• 2:34:42
  She's like new. We knew was just running.
• 2:34:44
  I think that bit's hilarious. I'm not sure you can be too hard
• 2:34:48
  on a story that delivers the end of the earth for one cliffhanger
• 2:34:53
  and that staggering narrative shift for the second
• 2:34:55
  cliffhanger. I think it does have a lot of
• 2:34:57
  innovation in this. It's nowhere near as hackneyed
• 2:35:00
  as you made it out to be there, not visually and not in its
• 2:35:03
  writing. And there are.
• 2:35:06
  There are terrific ideas in this.
• 2:35:07
  I really like the bomb in the statue.
• 2:35:09
  I've said it already. I love the miniaturization
• 2:35:11
  punishment, but I like the idea that it's the cold.
• 2:35:15
  There's an accident that almost brings down this civilization
• 2:35:18
  and allows the Doctor to be nice and smart.
• 2:35:20
  I love it when the doctor do you see watch his body language as
• 2:35:22
  he walks in at the end of Episode 2, clutching his lapels.
• 2:35:26
  I've solved the whole situation, everybody.
• 2:35:28
  You know, he's so proud. He's wonderful.
• 2:35:30
  Oh, that's a that's a bit. Well, I'm so sorry.
• 2:35:33
  I'm so sorry to blunt out like a a three-year old with no sexual
• 2:35:36
  control. But there's a very knowing joke
• 2:35:38
  he does, isn't there? Go on where the the monoids go.
• 2:35:43
  Have you seen any visions? And he goes no.
• 2:35:46
  I have not. Seen any visions?
• 2:35:48
  And gives Dodo a little nod. He's wonderful in this.
• 2:35:54
  He's he's, he's written smart, which I like.
• 2:35:59
  I gave her two halves with the production you've got, stylish,
• 2:36:01
  ambitious. Direction, I said visions and
• 2:36:03
  not refusions. They're all invisible.
• 2:36:06
  Anyone would think they're. All could you tell the
• 2:36:08
  difference? Invisible.
• 2:36:09
  Creatures in this season. Bizarre.
• 2:36:11
  Costuming and monsters which you.
• 2:36:12
  Guys have all talked about, so it's sort of like the best and
• 2:36:14
  worst of Doctor Who all jammed in one story.
• 2:36:18
  But the direction is great. I don't think he should have
• 2:36:19
  been sacked on the back of this. I think there's there's some
• 2:36:21
  flair in the direction. I don't think he sacked so much
• 2:36:25
  as just no, no. I think on the documentary.
• 2:36:28
  Go and watch it again, I think before it was over.
• 2:36:31
  He knew he wasn't going to work for the BBC.
• 2:36:33
  Again before he'd finished the production.
• 2:36:36
  The story weighs Stephen quite a bit.
• 2:36:38
  It has a lot of fun at Dodo's expense.
• 2:36:41
  Yeah, I I think this is fun, but I think it's mixed.
• 2:36:44
  And frankly, it's going in the bin anyway, so let's bin in.
• 2:36:47
  Sorry, Rod. So hang on.
• 2:36:49
  We said here at the beginning we're all so pleased.
• 2:36:52
  There's so much love for Season 3 and so.
• 2:36:55
  Far. It's the first four stories.
• 2:36:56
  We've been three of them, but so far there is only the massacre
• 2:37:00
  going through. Tim and I would have kept the
• 2:37:03
  first one, you 2 bastards. Hey, I would have.
• 2:37:06
  I would have kept Galaxy 4. So you.
• 2:37:08
  Well, I'd have kept the arcs to screw you a lot of.
• 2:37:10
  You right. I think we all.
• 2:37:11
  Might. Keep the myth makers and done.
• 2:37:13
  It's nice plan, but let's find. Out or will we?
• 2:37:15
  Let's do the last two so. Let's start with Tim, Tim Myth
• 2:37:20
  makers. Dark Master Plan.
• 2:37:24
  I know what I want to do, but I can't we, can't we?
• 2:37:28
  Can't do. We can't leave the.
• 2:37:29
  Myth makers till. Last, can we We can't do 12
• 2:37:33
  episodes now and 4 episodes at the end.
• 2:37:35
  We can't do that or can we? No, we can't do that.
• 2:37:40
  The Myth makers, it's got a bad quality soundtrack and we don't
• 2:37:47
  have many photos. And I think you have to ask
• 2:37:52
  yourself, should Doctor Who do? An outright.
• 2:37:56
  Comedy. And if you think the answer is
• 2:38:00
  yes, which I do, then this is a Doctor Who story that is written
• 2:38:07
  from the outset purely for. Lefts, there are more.
• 2:38:10
  Gags in this 100 minutes of Doctor Who than the rest of the
• 2:38:14
  1960s. Put together, combined.
• 2:38:17
  Is it successful in that? Well, maybe not for a six year
• 2:38:21
  old, but. For me.
• 2:38:24
  Old man, I think it's absolutely hilarious and I love absolutely
• 2:38:29
  everything about this story, so it gets saved for me.
• 2:38:37
  I love that Donald Cotton and I really like.
• 2:38:41
  Donald Cotton I love. That Donald Cotton has written
• 2:38:46
  the doctor as the straight man, as the stooge.
• 2:38:49
  So we've already talked about two different kinds of doctor,
• 2:38:52
  and I really liked your Dennis Spooner observation, Fraser.
• 2:38:57
  But here Donald Cotton writes a third kind of doctor and he's
• 2:39:00
  the straight man, the stooge. Things happen to him through his
• 2:39:04
  own lack of understanding of a situation.
• 2:39:06
  I think it's brilliant. I think it's a brilliant conceit
• 2:39:09
  for Doctor Who and I think it and I think it works.
• 2:39:14
  It's been dabbled with before, but here it's just brilliantly
• 2:39:18
  done and Hartnell is brilliant at it because this is his comedy
• 2:39:21
  chops. This is what he does.
• 2:39:23
  We can. See it in the Gunfighters, we
• 2:39:26
  can see his physical timing, we can see him playing the victim,
• 2:39:29
  the stooge, the straight man. And I think we'd see more of
• 2:39:32
  that here. Every single supporting
• 2:39:37
  character is written for laughs as you so ably acted out Rod at
• 2:39:44
  the start. And Joe I I every.
• 2:39:46
  Single supporting character is written for laughs Now I've
• 2:39:51
  heard it said that you need to understand the Iliad to
• 2:39:53
  understand the jokes palpably not true what you.
• 2:39:57
  What do you need to know about the myth makers to understand
• 2:40:00
  that a man is bored of his wife, about which this war has been
• 2:40:06
  raging for a decade, and he doesn't want.
• 2:40:08
  To back. What do you need to know about
• 2:40:11
  the myth to understand that Paris is this utterly vain
• 2:40:16
  coward? He goes hunting for Achilles,
• 2:40:21
  but he's such a coward he's he's whispering his name to lower the
• 2:40:25
  chances of him actually having to fight him.
• 2:40:29
  You don't need to know the history to enjoy one of the
• 2:40:31
  bluest jokes possible. This doesn't get.
• 2:40:34
  Quoted. Often people often talk about
• 2:40:36
  the bacchanite and orgy, but Cassandra dreaming that Greeks
• 2:40:41
  are falling upon her with their swords and Paris says, well, I
• 2:40:45
  don't think we need much help in interpreting that one.
• 2:40:49
  How? Did I miss that one?
• 2:40:51
  I've got that one written down. Oh my.
• 2:40:56
  God there are like. I mean, I'll let you.
• 2:40:57
  All tell your fair share of the jokes in the episode titles,
• 2:41:00
  but. I just think it's, I just think
• 2:41:03
  it's really funny. Secondly, I love that it's not a
• 2:41:07
  straight history. I'd love that it's not the early
• 2:41:10
  and. This is.
• 2:41:12
  This is Donald Cotton, as he did a lot.
• 2:41:15
  You know he loved this area of mythology, so he's picking bits
• 2:41:19
  from The Iliad. And Shakespeare.
• 2:41:20
  And Chaucer, I'm not a classicist, I don't know, but
• 2:41:23
  he's just wallowing in this, in this, in this setting.
• 2:41:27
  So I love that it's not a historical, it's just a period
• 2:41:31
  piece about myths. Everyone calls it historical.
• 2:41:35
  It's a mythological and I love that Doctor Who can do that.
• 2:41:39
  We pretend it's a historical, but it really isn't.
• 2:41:42
  And if you, if you look into the history of what we can possibly
• 2:41:46
  know about this war, it's all oral history.
• 2:41:50
  Written, written language got lost between when this was
• 2:41:54
  supposed to have happened and when written language was
• 2:41:57
  discovered. Again, there was hundreds of
• 2:41:59
  years in the gap, so this is. Oral tradition passed.
• 2:42:02
  Down and it's made it to Donald Cotton for Doctor Who.
• 2:42:05
  I love that. I think that's absolutely
• 2:42:07
  fantastic. It's in this season that whilst
• 2:42:13
  Tosh and whoever else is in the confused, melting.
• 2:42:15
  Pot of creation can switch. From melodramatic mission to
• 2:42:20
  massacres to high minded historical and then this out and
• 2:42:27
  out comedy. But .3.
• 2:42:30
  I really love the fact that everyone gets slaughtered at the
• 2:42:36
  end. Yes.
• 2:42:36
  What is wrong with these people? This was the one where we felt
• 2:42:41
  sort of safe, relaxed. Going through it, this is.
• 2:42:44
  Going to be all right. You're killing.
• 2:42:46
  Off now, genuinely funny. Characters.
• 2:42:52
  That's why it hurts though, isn't it?
• 2:42:53
  Because they are you like you love those characters because.
• 2:42:56
  They're so funny. It's a nice.
• 2:42:57
  It's a nice pay. Off for the Cassandra character
• 2:43:00
  though. I mean, you've got to go there.
• 2:43:01
  She's not been listened to. So just to just to slap her in
• 2:43:04
  the face one more time, they also have cut off their spaces,
• 2:43:07
  cut off their noses, spite their faces and get massacred.
• 2:43:10
  I also love Vicky as a character.
• 2:43:12
  I love Maureen O'Brien and I think she's funny in this
• 2:43:16
  despite being sacked. You know, I, I think she's funny
• 2:43:20
  in this. I think she's written out very
• 2:43:24
  nicely despite what other thing I think she's written out very
• 2:43:27
  nicely with the whole Troilus Cressida gag.
• 2:43:30
  I think she has a very nice ending.
• 2:43:34
  And you know, it's a story that can play for life. 70% at the
• 2:43:38
  time of 15% romance and 15% mindless violence.
• 2:43:43
  I, I think it's, I, I think it's magic.
• 2:43:46
  I really do. And it's just a shame I feel
• 2:43:51
  that it is so inaccessible because it's got a shit
• 2:43:55
  soundtrack and wobbly wobbly park parking.
• 2:43:59
  Copyright Andy at World Enough and Time pod but I love it.
• 2:44:04
  I would save it. Brilliant.
• 2:44:06
  Let us go to our comments. First one is from David Glaspie
• 2:44:09
  Pratt. Joe, who did your hamster
• 2:44:11
  commentary? And I absolutely bloody love it.
• 2:44:15
  It's a funny script which the cast nails.
• 2:44:17
  Some brilliant performances, especially Cassandra.
• 2:44:20
  Of all the missing stories this season, this one hurts the most.
• 2:44:23
  I Can't Sing it's praises enough.
• 2:44:25
  We sort of discovered it together when we did the
• 2:44:27
  commentary and we were both in the dark, like you said, Tim,
• 2:44:30
  and as we. Were going through it.
• 2:44:32
  We just fell in love with it more and more.
• 2:44:33
  Oh, sorry, powders, right Big Orange.
• 2:44:35
  Michael says the historical trying to become more than just
• 2:44:39
  a teaching moment with great success.
• 2:44:41
  I wish we had footage of it. Curse you was for suspending the
• 2:44:44
  telly snaps, but the audio with narration is fun.
• 2:44:47
  I'm going to keep it. Michael Storm says a great story
• 2:44:50
  which is both laugh out loud funny and quite visceral.
• 2:44:53
  It's not quite. Carry on, Trojan.
• 2:44:55
  But it comes close. Some stellar performances and
• 2:44:58
  camera scripts indicate this was quite technically directed.
• 2:45:01
  Keep it Jim Allenby says. A funny and witty story with a
• 2:45:05
  stellar cast, it's a hidden classic that quickly turns to.
• 2:45:08
  Tragedy in its last episode. It's also goodbye to Vicky,
• 2:45:11
  who'll be missed. Samuel Knight sounds says.
• 2:45:14
  Sounds like a lot of shouting. And it's not until we get into
• 2:45:17
  Troy that it starts being fun. Then in episode 4 all the jokes
• 2:45:21
  end and the killing starts. There's still a few jokes in
• 2:45:27
  four. You know when Harley?
• 2:45:28
  Was in the horse. Shame on Wiles for sucking
• 2:45:31
  Maureen O'Brien. But she does get an OK send off
• 2:45:34
  unlike later companions. James Lark says as funny as
• 2:45:38
  Doctor Who has ever been. A quotedly clever and witty
• 2:45:41
  script. Character comedy by the bucket
• 2:45:43
  load and the cast play it to perfection.
• 2:45:46
  Then it hits you with that final episode, navigating the change
• 2:45:49
  of tone with a virtual oh, good grief, a virtuistic, audacious
• 2:45:55
  swagger. Damn, you rot.
• 2:45:57
  An astonishing piece of drama, and perhaps my favorite Doctor
• 2:46:01
  Who of all. Jason Thompson says glorious.
• 2:46:04
  The dialogue sparkles, my casting uniformly.
• 2:46:07
  Excellent. I've.
• 2:46:08
  Assaulted Odysseus is one of the best sporting characters ever.
• 2:46:11
  That says impending doom is palpable despite the comedy and
• 2:46:14
  the way it makes the Trojans likable even though we know they
• 2:46:17
  are all apart from Troilus going to die at the end is brilliant
• 2:46:22
  around all so it's not one I rush for, but it's a fun listen
• 2:46:25
  due to the witty script and once you get used to the.
• 2:46:27
  Fact that everyone is shouting Sad to lose Vicky, Andy
• 2:46:31
  Parkinson says. I've only ever listened to the
• 2:46:33
  audio and unfortunately it's just dull, which is a shame.
• 2:46:35
  It's bearing in mind. I love Underworld.
• 2:46:37
  You think I'd enjoy it? In it, Jack Koyer says a great
• 2:46:42
  guest cast are having a ball with a witty script.
• 2:46:44
  A lot of people. Are saying witty, aren't they?
• 2:46:46
  Which shows these grandiose mythological figures can have
• 2:46:49
  the same mundane aspects of life as the rest of us.
• 2:46:52
  Most of Prion, Paris and Cassandra stuff is gold.
• 2:46:55
  So much so that you don't mind that the companions get less.
• 2:46:58
  A sharp shift from comedy to tragedy, Luke Sims Jenkins says.
• 2:47:02
  Just wonderful, bummy and dark. And I'm glad Vicky left here.
• 2:47:05
  She may not have survived the next.
• 2:47:07
  Story day for any tremendous story, it's everyone loves this
• 2:47:11
  tremendous story. It's full of wonderful
• 2:47:13
  characters and. Shifts from being a funny
• 2:47:15
  historical to another bloodbath in episode 4.
• 2:47:18
  Woe to the Trojans indeed. And finally, Paul Smice is my
• 2:47:22
  favorite historical and one of my favorite stories of all time.
• 2:47:25
  So funny for the first 3. Episodes, but takes a very dark
• 2:47:28
  turn in episode 4. Hartnell is magnificent, right
• 2:47:33
  Fraser? Oh yes, it's brilliant.
• 2:47:36
  Love it. Going through.
• 2:47:39
  Right. Price for that I.
• 2:47:41
  Thought we were going to have an argument.
• 2:47:44
  He wants to go to bed. Tonight, you're the reason.
• 2:47:46
  We're up so late. All right, well you see that,
• 2:47:48
  but you know if anyone wants another piss.
• 2:47:49
  Break now is. The time because.
• 2:47:53
  Because. This, this era is is right up my
• 2:47:56
  street. I I.
• 2:47:56
  Love Greek mythology? You know the whole.
• 2:48:01
  You know, gods and mortals and everything.
• 2:48:03
  It's it's this is my wheelhouse 100%.
• 2:48:06
  So, you know, starting off, this is right up my street.
• 2:48:09
  It's it's interested in that we're talking about home and the
• 2:48:11
  Iliad because the Iliad actually ends at the start of the story
• 2:48:15
  that the Iliad ends with the fight between Achilles and
• 2:48:19
  Hector and Achilles killing Hector.
• 2:48:22
  So this is where our myth makers starts off.
• 2:48:25
  Really, it's the need that forms the basis for this story.
• 2:48:31
  Virgil Zenia telling the the tale.
• 2:48:33
  Of Aeneas in his. His journey, but we'll come back
• 2:48:36
  to him. So it's just what I love about
• 2:48:41
  this more than anything is just how literal it is.
• 2:48:45
  It's the myth makers and Donald Cotton comes in and makes the
• 2:48:50
  myth in this story. You look over the Iliad, which
• 2:48:55
  has got, you know, Achilles and and Hector and all these
• 2:48:59
  characters in it. You look over them.
• 2:49:00
  They are very different to how Donald Cotton is portraying
• 2:49:03
  them. Achilles is the hero.
• 2:49:06
  Achilles is the man who was dipped in the river sticks.
• 2:49:09
  So he's invulnerable. He is, you know, as hard as
• 2:49:13
  you're going to get And but he he is, you know, he says, oh,
• 2:49:16
  I've killed Hector and he was I whatever, you know, it sets him
• 2:49:20
  up as this less than perfect soldier.
• 2:49:23
  You've got the DCS who is a bit of a off the daily character.
• 2:49:29
  You know, he's a bit of a delboy, isn't he's he's he's
• 2:49:33
  probably the closest we've got with villain in this, and he's
• 2:49:36
  you know, he's he's not the sort of hero form the odyssey that we
• 2:49:42
  have described again by Homer. You have King Prior, who is his
• 2:49:49
  camp as a fucking window, and he's, he's just glorious.
• 2:49:52
  You have Paris who will mention camp as a window, Camp as a
• 2:49:55
  window. And you've got.
• 2:50:01
  Paris, we've said, you know, is, is this sort of like.
• 2:50:04
  Preening, you know, cowardly sort of character.
• 2:50:10
  And Toby describes him as Bertie Worcester.
• 2:50:16
  Brilliant. That's brilliant.
• 2:50:19
  So you know the. Kind cotton's kind of like.
• 2:50:22
  Getting in this this. Idea that.
• 2:50:24
  This is the beginning, this is how the myth is formed.
• 2:50:26
  The myth is made here. Then these counters then develop
• 2:50:30
  into the the myth that we know. He strips out all the sort of
• 2:50:35
  mythology because home and Virgil packing their their
• 2:50:40
  stories full of, you know, demigods and you know more also
• 2:50:44
  well, born of of gods and you know, the gods are getting
• 2:50:46
  involved in, you know, chucking the weight around.
• 2:50:49
  So he strips all that out and just makes it as historical as
• 2:50:52
  you can. Tim, you're 100% right.
• 2:50:53
  This isn't historic at all. It's it's fantasy more than
• 2:50:55
  anything else when you think about it.
• 2:50:57
  But Cotton makes it so grounded. And the interesting thing for me
• 2:51:03
  is how much this informs the film Troy that came out in 2004.
• 2:51:07
  I think it was or there were boats where you have Brad Pitt
• 2:51:10
  playing Achilles and you have. Sean Bean playing and.
• 2:51:13
  Odyssey is probably the only role Sean Bean ever played where
• 2:51:15
  he doesn't die at the end. It's this is, you could look at
• 2:51:19
  this and go, this is the inspiration for that film.
• 2:51:21
  I don't know whether you know Wolfgang Peterson, who made that
• 2:51:23
  is. A Doctor Who found what I would
• 2:51:25
  not be. Surprised if he was because it
• 2:51:26
  matches so well and it's got that same sort of real vibe
• 2:51:30
  about it. And I think he's departure is
• 2:51:34
  really well done. It's we're in any era where.
• 2:51:37
  There's like a revolving door. Of companions coming in and and
• 2:51:42
  going out and coming in and going out again and I think
• 2:51:47
  we'll go through about 5 or 6 from Galaxy 4 through the the
• 2:51:53
  war machines at the end of the season.
• 2:51:54
  But it's, it's given a little bit of it's given a little bit
• 2:51:59
  of power behind it because one, Vicky does, you get a genuine
• 2:52:05
  sense that she has fallen in love with, with Troilus.
• 2:52:08
  And he, you know, that that relationship is that it's not
• 2:52:14
  Leela. And at the end of Invasion of
• 2:52:17
  Time, which is just like, I looked at him once and I quite
• 2:52:19
  liked the movie. And now it's there's a, you
• 2:52:22
  know, a genuine sense that Vicky would leave.
• 2:52:26
  Leave the TARDIS to to spend. The night with this and it's
• 2:52:29
  it's really clever because it again it undercuts.
• 2:52:31
  Sort of Troglis and cresteda. The Shakespeare play in which,
• 2:52:35
  you know, Troglis and Cresta altogether, but the implication
• 2:52:39
  is that Cresteda is sold off to the the Trojans and she ends up
• 2:52:43
  with diomedy and, you know, portrays traitors for diomedy.
• 2:52:47
  And when you know that, it kind of works on a whole other level.
• 2:52:51
  But no, she leaves them. And that scene at the end where
• 2:52:55
  she goes off and on the hill and it's my cousin.
• 2:52:57
  It's Aeneas. Remember that name from the
• 2:53:00
  near? He's the guy that goes off.
• 2:53:02
  And his descendants found Rome. So we're tying Vicky in with the
• 2:53:07
  Romans again, which is just a lovely sort of circular wave of
• 2:53:13
  bringing everything together. So yeah, it's, it's, it's a
• 2:53:16
  wonderful script. It's it's.
• 2:53:18
  You have that whiplash you. Have like John Wales, like I
• 2:53:20
  said it before he comes in, he's the system, you know, finding
• 2:53:23
  his feet. What can I do with this?
• 2:53:24
  Well, yeah, I've got a brilliant three partners, but ultimately
• 2:53:27
  everyone needs to die at the end because that's what history
• 2:53:29
  tells us happens. So we are going to really bring
• 2:53:31
  the tone down and I'll do the massacre and the style of
• 2:53:34
  episode 4 of of the mythic. But we have the first of the
• 2:53:37
  episodes and everything. It's just marvellous and I
• 2:53:40
  didn't even notice the popping in the soundtrack.
• 2:53:42
  I just loved it when I watched it.
• 2:53:45
  In, in, in, in, in. No, I want.
• 2:53:49
  To follow these two Jesus Christ.
• 2:53:51
  And kind of you said? Everything I've written down, So
• 2:53:54
  what can? I possibly add to this, you
• 2:53:58
  cannot have 3 episodes of comedy and then a massacre.
• 2:54:01
  Except you can, because they do it with such a confident swagger
• 2:54:06
  in this story. I mean, if you'd have told me on
• 2:54:09
  paper, I wouldn't have believed you.
• 2:54:10
  But actually experiencing the story, it just works.
• 2:54:13
  And fuck me, you love these characters.
• 2:54:15
  These are genuinely funny characters.
• 2:54:18
  And watching them being massacred horribly and Cassandra
• 2:54:21
  being flung around it, it's just, it's high drama after high
• 2:54:26
  comedy. The jokes, are they mixed?
• 2:54:29
  From the ridiculous to the sublime.
• 2:54:31
  The woes of the horse. I Can't believe Nobody's Said
• 2:54:33
  That is both really terrible and very funny.
• 2:54:38
  A brilliant ensemble cast, people snatched from films,
• 2:54:43
  terrific characters. I love that when we go in
• 2:54:46
  Episode 2, when we go over to the Trojan camp, it becomes a
• 2:54:50
  sort of Rusty Davis style Doctor Who, a family drama between the
• 2:54:54
  characters there. And absolutely, if I can't
• 2:54:57
  really buy into what's going on in the other camp, I can
• 2:54:59
  definitely. See my dysfunctional?
• 2:55:01
  Family amongst this bunch, it's basically me, my sister and my
• 2:55:04
  dad. He was a little bit camp as well
• 2:55:08
  and it's it's really, really funny.
• 2:55:10
  Throw Vicky into the mix and Cassandra reacting to Vicky.
• 2:55:14
  I mean, it's the campus thing you're ever going to see in
• 2:55:17
  Doctor Who. Bloody hell.
• 2:55:19
  I just stopped the March phone over the actress from May to
• 2:55:22
  December whose name I've forgotten.
• 2:55:23
  Now. What's her name?
• 2:55:24
  Leslie. Don't know.
• 2:55:26
  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Francis White.
• 2:55:29
  Francis White. She's still doing Phantom.
• 2:55:30
  Conventions talking about the. Myth makers and she should
• 2:55:34
  Grandma pig. In Peppa Pig, no.
• 2:55:37
  Yes. This was her second best
• 2:55:42
  performance. Ever then.
• 2:55:45
  The. Crazy film score.
• 2:55:46
  Didn't that fella come? From films, The guy who did the
• 2:55:49
  Humphrey Searle. A.
• 2:55:50
  Highly acclaimed classical musician and he's a mate of
• 2:55:54
  Donald Cotton. 'S so he's in like that,
• 2:55:57
  actually accentuating the comedy at every possible moment.
• 2:56:00
  A bit like Murray Gold, but. It's it's memorable and it's
• 2:56:03
  different. And I, yeah, Colton asked him to
• 2:56:05
  come over, didn't he? It's wonderful.
• 2:56:07
  Go listen to my 5 hour hamster commentary on this where me and
• 2:56:11
  David Gillespie Pratt stole it's virtues.
• 2:56:14
  I will just say one thing for the novelization though.
• 2:56:17
  Still one of the very best targets I've ever read.
• 2:56:20
  It is a piece of art, that book and the fun he has with with
• 2:56:26
  Homer skipping between the two camps because obviously he's got
• 2:56:30
  to tell both. Sides of the story he's.
• 2:56:32
  Got like a secret passage so he can go between the two.
• 2:56:34
  Well, I've seen enough of this side now.
• 2:56:35
  I'll go over there and then the conversation he has about the
• 2:56:38
  Doctor explaining about the myths that he's then going to
• 2:56:41
  tell and how the Doctor told him all about a bootstrap paradox.
• 2:56:45
  That's no fuck, what's the matter?
• 2:56:47
  The bootstrap paradox of the Doctor inventing the.
• 2:56:50
  Horse when he's like. He's.
• 2:56:52
  Like you fly. Will the paper off?
• 2:56:55
  Fuck it. He basically sums it up with the
• 2:56:58
  horse. He just goes.
• 2:57:00
  Look, I've explained this to you, but don't think about it
• 2:57:02
  too the doctor. Making the myth?
• 2:57:04
  Yes, exactly. It's a wonderful book.
• 2:57:07
  And the reading. 'S great as well.
• 2:57:09
  Everything. About it was a total.
• 2:57:11
  Surprise to me, I didn't. Think Doctor Who had any
• 2:57:13
  surprises left for me, especially the classic series.
• 2:57:17
  I experienced this as a Recon, and it blew my mind in a way
• 2:57:21
  that the new series haven't done for a long, long time.
• 2:57:24
  I think it's one of the very best Doctor Who stories.
• 2:57:26
  Please. Well, it's going through.
• 2:57:28
  That's three of us, isn't it? Well, it's now going to be four
• 2:57:30
  of us because I, I, I have. Kind of distanced myself from
• 2:57:36
  this for many years. Having listened to the.
• 2:57:38
  Kind of shouty. Bad soundtrack that we've talked
• 2:57:40
  about and really just listening to that because I kind of wanted
• 2:57:43
  to get the kind of pure experience rather than kind of
• 2:57:46
  watching recons. But so that was kind of all I
• 2:57:50
  was familiar with and it had put me off a little bit.
• 2:57:52
  And I'll low smoke show, but I listened to your commentary with
• 2:57:57
  David Gillespie proud and thought there's got to be more
• 2:57:59
  to this because it's just something that's never really
• 2:58:01
  engaged with my. So I watched it with the Loose
• 2:58:03
  Cannon and the soundtrack and just.
• 2:58:06
  Yeah, I'm just going to add to everybody else.
• 2:58:08
  It's a revelation. It was spectacular and I enjoyed
• 2:58:11
  it in a way that I've never enjoyed it before.
• 2:58:15
  Yeah, it's great. It's just everything you've
• 2:58:18
  talked about, it often gets compared to carry on.
• 2:58:20
  But what it kind of reminds me of, and this isn't a good way
• 2:58:23
  and it was before it's time, but Up Pompeii, so the kind of show
• 2:58:27
  with Frankie Howard, it's so similar to kind of the Up
• 2:58:31
  Pompeii setup. So if you're not familiar with
• 2:58:33
  Up Pompeii, which was written by Talbert Rothwell, who wrote all
• 2:58:35
  the kind of middle ground and the best kind of carry ONS, it
• 2:58:39
  kind of takes Frankie Howard and drops him into the middle of
• 2:58:42
  Pompeii where he looks after surprise, surprise, a family.
• 2:58:46
  So you've got Ludicrit, who's the head of the household, and
• 2:58:49
  Ammonia, who's his promiscuous wife, and then the daughter is
• 2:58:52
  erotica and the son is nauseous. So it's a pretty basic setup,
• 2:58:57
  but the plots revolve around things like the assassination of
• 2:59:00
  Caesar and slave uprisings. But it's really just a thinly
• 2:59:03
  belled excuse for a bit of innuendo and word play.
• 2:59:06
  It's so similar. Even though that was five years
• 2:59:09
  after this, I'm sure this must have inspired it because that
• 2:59:11
  family that we've got there, the King Prime and his sons Paris
• 2:59:15
  and trailers and daughter Cassandra, it's just such a
• 2:59:18
  similar kind of setup. No British sitcom architect, the
• 2:59:22
  Archetypes. So you've got, you know, Paris.
• 2:59:25
  He's he's a bumbling upper. Class British fool, isn't he?
• 2:59:29
  As Cassandra is, is foreshadowing Senna.
• 2:59:32
  So Senna is the the prophetess in not Pompeii, who's always
• 2:59:35
  running on shouting. Oh, whoa, whoa.
• 2:59:38
  And it's, you know, it's doing exactly the same kind of thing.
• 2:59:41
  And then you've got Agamemnon and his drunk brother Menelaus
• 2:59:44
  on the other side. And the style and the tone of
• 2:59:46
  their language. It's not called period.
• 2:59:48
  Like say something like the Crusade.
• 2:59:50
  It's pure 1960 sitcom when I commemor Nan says to his
• 2:59:54
  brother, don't want to see your wife again.
• 2:59:56
  And Mendela says, quite frankly, no, you must be heartily glad to
• 3:00:00
  see the back of her. It's just like, it's like, you
• 3:00:03
  know, Sid James and. Peggy Mountain, George and the
• 3:00:06
  Dragon. It's that kind of language, but
• 3:00:08
  it's really, really funny. And even the doctor joins him
• 3:00:11
  with it. The first thing he tells them
• 3:00:12
  when he comes into the camp is that, you know, a disease, his
• 3:00:15
  wife is being unfaithful. And it's just, it's great.
• 3:00:19
  It is really, really fun. So it's definitely got that kind
• 3:00:22
  of 1960s sitcom sensibility mapped with the myth, mapped
• 3:00:26
  with Doctor Who. It shouldn't work, all these
• 3:00:29
  things blended together, but it absolutely does.
• 3:00:32
  The dialogue is to die for. I sometimes struggle.
• 3:00:35
  I'll be honest with some of Dennis Spooner's comedy and
• 3:00:37
  we'll get. To the chase.
• 3:00:38
  And Morton, Dale and all of that doesn't land for me here.
• 3:00:42
  I think it's absolutely gold. I'm just chortling all the way
• 3:00:45
  through. The Doctor says he doesn't want
• 3:00:47
  to under any vulgar baudray. But there's so much here.
• 3:00:50
  Tim, you've already, I was going to read out the line about
• 3:00:53
  Cassandra saying soldiers came and fell upon us as we slept.
• 3:00:56
  I said, well, how do you think we need trouble to interpret
• 3:00:58
  that? It's great, isn't it?
• 3:01:01
  And it's just lots of lovely word prior the other one I wrote
• 3:01:04
  down. Was Prime saying.
• 3:01:05
  To Vicki. Now, don't be frightened, child.
• 3:01:08
  You'll, you shall die when I say so, and not a moment before
• 3:01:12
  because, oh, that's very comforting.
• 3:01:15
  All it needs is a little kindness and understanding.
• 3:01:17
  It's just, it's very, very. Very funny you.
• 3:01:21
  Know. I think we're missing a lot of
• 3:01:23
  comedic reactions. Absolutely, if you can see it,
• 3:01:25
  the bit where Harbor wants to. Project them into the air, the
• 3:01:30
  other camp. And then he goes fine, you can
• 3:01:32
  go 1st and he's like oh God, oh I'll think of something else.
• 3:01:35
  Don't worry. You can just imagine his face
• 3:01:38
  and we're missing his. Reaction when he said.
• 3:01:40
  He's come in the guise of a filthy.
• 3:01:42
  Old beggar. Or whatever it is you can.
• 3:01:44
  Just see him, you know the horror.
• 3:01:48
  But then what really what and what I think is the masterstroke
• 3:01:51
  of this is it then works so well.
• 3:01:53
  When it turns in episode. Four, because you would not
• 3:01:56
  expect again to get that seismic shift and for both elements to
• 3:02:01
  work. And they work perfectly here.
• 3:02:03
  And it's suddenly really harsh and it's it's scary and it's
• 3:02:07
  frightening. The fact that the Doctor, Kenny,
• 3:02:10
  he leaves Vicky as much as I was saying with Anne before, but he
• 3:02:13
  leaves Vicky to go out to the TARDIS and run back into the
• 3:02:16
  city where he knows potentially she's in huge danger.
• 3:02:20
  And obviously we then get Katarina's come on board and
• 3:02:22
  she's going to have a long and successful time of all the
• 3:02:24
  TARDIS, isn't she? So it's, you know, things are no
• 3:02:27
  longer safe. And that's just such a brilliant
• 3:02:30
  juxtaposition between the comedy and the drama.
• 3:02:32
  But both work brilliantly. You know what as well, they cut
• 3:02:35
  away from the Doctor and Vicki's goodbye like in the.
• 3:02:40
  Series now they would never not show you that goodbye, would
• 3:02:43
  they? A milk in for everything it's
• 3:02:44
  worth but just her and him and you see their sort of silent
• 3:02:48
  reactions to passing. I think it's kind of more moving
• 3:02:51
  than all the blubbing you get these and we've got that little
• 3:02:54
  clip, that tantalizing clip of her coming out of the TARDIS
• 3:02:57
  looking heartbroken. Same with Ian.
• 3:02:59
  And Barbara. Yeah, and it ends on an in story
• 3:03:04
  cliffhanger which. Is very rare.
• 3:03:05
  We often get like the tag. Scenes, but this actually ends.
• 3:03:08
  With Stephen in peril, doesn't it?
• 3:03:10
  Yeah. So, yeah.
• 3:03:11
  Brilliant. So it is going through.
• 3:03:14
  Somehow I knew that Dalek's master.
• 3:03:16
  Plan was going to be lost. Also more, more, more Peter.
• 3:03:20
  Pervis talking rubbish? William Hartnell does not say.
• 3:03:24
  I. Am not a dog.
• 3:03:29
  No. He often quotes that this is not
• 3:03:31
  a dog. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to boil it
• 3:03:34
  with. Purpose.
• 3:03:37
  You heard a hair. First, you regret making him
• 3:03:39
  toast. At that convention now.
• 3:03:43
  Right, the Fraser master. Plan takes on the Dalek Master
• 3:03:46
  Plan. Interesting because.
• 3:03:50
  I don't like this one. Well, of course you.
• 3:03:53
  Don't, No. I mean, I like parts of it.
• 3:03:56
  I like parts of it. But it's too long.
• 3:04:01
  The bottom long and short of it, the 12.
• 3:04:06
  Parts. The length of it just doesn't.
• 3:04:09
  Work and. The reason it doesn't work is
• 3:04:13
  because for more than. Anything.
• 3:04:16
  It's the. The split between.
• 3:04:20
  The two writers. So you have Terry Nation.
• 3:04:23
  Coming in and doing 6. Episodes and then you have then
• 3:04:26
  a Spooner coming in and doing 6 episodes so Rod, if you've done
• 3:04:30
  the sensible thing and split this season evenly and not done
• 3:04:34
  your whole if you'd actually split in half and we were
• 3:04:40
  talking about the. First half of.
• 3:04:44
  Dart master plan. I would 100% put this through
• 3:04:47
  because that's brilliant. For the most part.
• 3:04:50
  It's it's padded. There's a lot of padded, you
• 3:04:54
  know, the the plot is is probably not where it needs to
• 3:04:59
  be for for 12 episodes, but you know that first half where Terry
• 3:05:04
  Nation. 'S in control.
• 3:05:05
  And he is writing this story and it is sort of like political
• 3:05:08
  entry. And it's, you know, the Daleks
• 3:05:12
  have a plan and the Doctor was trying to stop it.
• 3:05:14
  And there's things going on up planet Earth and there's, you
• 3:05:19
  know, agents and secret agents and space agents and, you know,
• 3:05:23
  scientists and all the rest of it.
• 3:05:24
  That's, that's really, really interesting, really entertain.
• 3:05:27
  And then it gets really torpedoed by the Feast of
• 3:05:31
  Stephen, because right when things are getting interested
• 3:05:37
  in, right when you're ready for the next.
• 3:05:40
  The next jungle planet or whatever.
• 3:05:41
  This absolute nothing of a Christmas runaround just sinks
• 3:05:48
  the momentum. Christmas Day, Fraser.
• 3:05:51
  Christmas Day. Yeah, Humbug.
• 3:05:54
  Humbug indeed. But you know.
• 3:05:56
  Every this the. Wind just comes right out the
• 3:05:58
  sails. Of.
• 3:05:59
  That plot at that time and. I watched this, I will admit I
• 3:06:04
  watched this the In the Being AI reconstruction because I
• 3:06:10
  thought, oh, I don't really do tally snaps very well.
• 3:06:12
  And so I watched the in the Being reconstruction and I think
• 3:06:17
  that's probably so it is a little bit towards it.
• 3:06:21
  Did you recognize any of the characters?
• 3:06:23
  First of all? Yes, I mean there was.
• 3:06:26
  Well, that's. The same was in one of.
• 3:06:27
  Them and you know, I think I spotted.
• 3:06:30
  John Hurt as Stephen TL at some point as well.
• 3:06:34
  And there was about nine faces of Brett Ryan, which was
• 3:06:36
  investing. But you know, so I did go back
• 3:06:39
  and I watched the the recons and literally I got to the halfway
• 3:06:42
  point and I just thought I've got no interest now when you
• 3:06:46
  know, I've I've so enjoyed this first half.
• 3:06:49
  Now I've got no and it really makes it sad because I love
• 3:06:52
  Dennis Spooner. I love Dennis Spooner all
• 3:06:55
  heartedly. Dennis Spooner is is one of my
• 3:06:58
  unsung heroes of Doctor Who because I think Dennis Spooner
• 3:07:01
  comes in in in season 2 and like I say, he turns the doctor into
• 3:07:04
  an action hero. He makes the focus more on
• 3:07:08
  Doctor Who and what Doctor Who can do.
• 3:07:10
  And I think that gives the show, the injection the impetus to
• 3:07:14
  keep going. You know, as long as this it
• 3:07:17
  does. I think I can really say kind of
• 3:07:19
  people and out if if they just went the way of, you know,
• 3:07:22
  having Ian or Steven as the as the hero, not and not the
• 3:07:27
  doctor. So it really makes it sad that
• 3:07:29
  I'm not enjoying then a spoon as work.
• 3:07:32
  It's but it's just it's just spinning plates.
• 3:07:35
  You know, Hots 878910 all just plates spinning.
• 3:07:42
  Even part 11 when they get back to Campbell, it's just spinning
• 3:07:45
  plates. Part 12 comes in and is again,
• 3:07:47
  as it's fucking phenomenal. I think parts 12 and parts 4 in
• 3:07:52
  particular are, you know, some of the best episodes, single
• 3:07:56
  episodes of Doctor Who wouldn't. But everything else is just is
• 3:08:00
  just plate spinning and the characterizations are really off
• 3:08:05
  as well. The the characterization of the
• 3:08:09
  Doctor I really don't like. I think you get to the end and
• 3:08:13
  Sarah Kingdom dies because the Doctor doesn't tell her what's
• 3:08:16
  going on. All it takes is for the Doctor
• 3:08:19
  to say I'm going to use the time to structure on the Daleks.
• 3:08:21
  Go back the tortoise. Otherwise it'll kill you.
• 3:08:23
  But it's just no, no, just do as I say.
• 3:08:25
  Just do as I say. And that's a wooden theme
• 3:08:27
  throughout, you know, there's, you know, oh, why can't
• 3:08:30
  countries all be like Catarina? Because she doesn't ask any
• 3:08:32
  questions. It's just it's it's not what I
• 3:08:37
  look for in the counter of the Doctor.
• 3:08:38
  So I don't like that. Catarina herself.
• 3:08:41
  Bless. Her.
• 3:08:43
  This is where this episode really speaks to the what's
• 3:08:46
  going on behind the scenes. The rest of the episodes, rest
• 3:08:49
  of the stories. It doesn't really bleed in as
• 3:08:52
  much. We're talking about, you know,
• 3:08:53
  the myth makers and Maureen O'Brien was sacked.
• 3:08:55
  Butcher still going to be a performance.
• 3:08:57
  William Hart was having a shit time on the myth makers and he's
• 3:08:59
  still turning up. You know, he's getting bashed by
• 3:09:02
  cameras. He's ants died and he can't go
• 3:09:03
  at the funeral because he's got to record.
• 3:09:05
  But you know, he's still turning in and it doesn't show on the
• 3:09:08
  screen. But here it does because you
• 3:09:10
  have Katarina, who is shoved in at the very last minute as the
• 3:09:15
  companion, the myth makers. And very quickly Whiles and Tosh
• 3:09:19
  realized this isn't going to work because they don't
• 3:09:21
  particularly have the imagination just to do what
• 3:09:23
  Ennis Lloyd and Jerry Davidson said.
• 3:09:25
  Yeah, it's fine. That can be from the past.
• 3:09:26
  And we'll we'll let them go. It's fine.
• 3:09:30
  And I guess the point where the first scenes that Adrian Hill
• 3:09:34
  records is Catarina is our death.
• 3:09:38
  That's when she gets blasted out the headlock.
• 3:09:40
  It's a, you know, be filmed into it before she's even introduced
• 3:09:44
  as the companion and Ryan comes in as sort of like surrogate
• 3:09:48
  companion. He gets killed in episode 4 for
• 3:09:50
  no other reason than there's too many men now.
• 3:09:52
  So we need to have Sarah Kingdom.
• 3:09:53
  I mean, you're always going to want Gee Martian because she's
• 3:09:55
  fantastic. But that's how it seems.
• 3:09:58
  You know, it's just like, oh, it's too many men now we'll get
• 3:10:01
  to shoot him and it doesn't really gel.
• 3:10:04
  And how does come and go throughout that little baldy
• 3:10:08
  headed fella? Who's he?
• 3:10:09
  What's he called? Halton.
• 3:10:12
  Yeah, he's brilliant. And he's only into episodes and
• 3:10:14
  no one knows what happens to him.
• 3:10:15
  He just comes and. Goes.
• 3:10:17
  It's just so. Disjointed because actually the
• 3:10:20
  the the whole plot of of the Dark Master plan could be summed
• 3:10:24
  up in in one sentence. Really.
• 3:10:27
  You know the? Daleks have a plan.
• 3:10:28
  They're going to use this. Time to structure.
• 3:10:30
  So the doctor steals the the bit that works goes on the run and
• 3:10:33
  comes back and uses it against them.
• 3:10:36
  So it doesn't really work for you.
• 3:10:38
  Like I said, there's there's a lot of good bits and.
• 3:10:41
  So I don't want to just sit here and.
• 3:10:42
  And shit on it because I know you're all going to love it And,
• 3:10:44
  and you know, probably, I think you're approaching it the wrong
• 3:10:47
  way. I think you're seeing it as a 12
• 3:10:49
  part Doctor Who story rather than a three month.
• 3:10:52
  Epic to be shown once a week. And you're seeing this as a
• 3:10:56
  whole. And your whole argument is sort
• 3:10:57
  of built around the fact that this is a but none of this was
• 3:11:00
  supposed to be consumed this way.
• 3:11:02
  No, it wasn't. But can I see myself sitting and
• 3:11:05
  spending three months watching this?
• 3:11:06
  Oh yes, definitely. I can't because week to week
• 3:11:11
  it's delivering like confident. Action shocks.
• 3:11:14
  Great character beats. Brilliant set.
• 3:11:16
  Pieces, Bunny moments. No, no, no.
• 3:11:19
  Then you get to 7 and it's doing comedy set pieces.
• 3:11:22
  It's doing a bit of history week to week.
• 3:11:24
  It's delivering again and again and again.
• 3:11:26
  When you look at it as a whole, that's when it's this weird poor
• 3:11:29
  man to this weird clash and mixture of things.
• 3:11:32
  And it's like, OK, does this all hang together?
• 3:11:34
  Who gives a shit for three months?
• 3:11:36
  It's fucking thrilling. And do you know what phrase you
• 3:11:39
  talked about the ratings before when we were talking about the
• 3:11:42
  massacre? But the ratings really hold up.
• 3:11:44
  Across master plan they they build and they drop obviously
• 3:11:48
  drop about Christmas Day, but not actually by that much goes
• 3:11:51
  down to 7.9 but then it comes back up to 9.69.29.5.
• 3:11:55
  It's really consistent across certainly the 11 weeks bar in
• 3:11:59
  Christmas, but even Christmas is not much of AA drop.
• 3:12:02
  So the audience were still coming back to it.
• 3:12:04
  They didn't get Dalek tedium halfway through and check out.
• 3:12:08
  No, absolutely not. Interesting though, the audience
• 3:12:10
  appreciation is the second lowest of this chunk that we're
• 3:12:13
  talking. About maybe because there's so
• 3:12:16
  many, though, you know, that Division, I mean, it's, I think
• 3:12:19
  speech to Stephen. Damages that.
• 3:12:21
  Quite, you know, there's a big, massive, massive dip in.
• 3:12:24
  There. But yeah, I mean, I'm glad that
• 3:12:27
  I've got this one last because then I don't have to vote.
• 3:12:29
  You guys can can vote because, you know, I don't like not
• 3:12:32
  liking things. Like, I'm really don't like not
• 3:12:34
  not liking Dennis Spooner stuff, so I'm glad that you guys can,
• 3:12:40
  you know, now tell me exactly why I'm wrong.
• 3:12:42
  You know I can sit. Here and listen you guys.
• 3:12:44
  Eulogize and tell us exactly how wonderful it is just you do with
• 3:12:48
  the dominators yeah, yeah, I am going to say one thing or the
• 3:12:53
  one thing that. You know.
• 3:12:56
  Probably. What is off this the most is
• 3:13:00
  Mavic Chen and how he writes. I mean, who calls a head like
• 3:13:04
  that? What?
• 3:13:05
  That's what What's going on with his hands as well?
• 3:13:09
  They're very I. Love that bit of writing.
• 3:13:11
  But wasn't that great? That wasn't that a great
• 3:13:13
  discovery. We didn't know about that until
• 3:13:15
  they have Armageddon. Turned up and there's a nice.
• 3:13:17
  Touch a nice bit of Cam feel close up on the hand and he's
• 3:13:21
  writing like a complete bell end that that transition in the
• 3:13:25
  Egyptian episode from the sun to the light on the Dalek Dome.
• 3:13:29
  How many directional flourishes are we not seeing in these
• 3:13:32
  missing episodes? Tons, I think.
• 3:13:35
  Let's go to the comments then. OK?
• 3:13:38
  Darren Lodge says the best here. It drags in places but speeds.
• 3:13:42
  Up in others quite nicely. Does have a bit of?
• 3:13:44
  A bittersweet ending though, but it's quite engrossing.
• 3:13:47
  Thanks for old Paul Quinn. A big shout out to the yellowing
• 3:13:51
  up and sellotate eyelids. Kevin.
• 3:13:53
  Stoney may be great, but this is still Fu Manchu in space with a
• 3:13:57
  sinister oriental plotting domination.
• 3:14:00
  Even a Southeast Asian actor couldn't disguise it.
• 3:14:03
  Extra points for the implied incest between Sarah and Brett.
• 3:14:07
  Top work, everyone. That's Paul.
• 3:14:11
  Paul Quinn. Yeah, of course.
• 3:14:13
  I've totally missed that then. I think most.
• 3:14:16
  Of us did, to be fair, Mr. the Magnificent.
• 3:14:18
  Says it's worst here. Agrees with you, Fraser, over
• 3:14:21
  long. Overrated The second-half of is
• 3:14:23
  a tedious drag. Final episode accepted A boring
• 3:14:26
  PO faced retread of the infinitely superior Chase,
• 3:14:31
  Hollingsworth says. So many stories within this
• 3:14:34
  whopper. Companion deaths and
• 3:14:36
  introductions, Appearances from Iconic.
• 3:14:38
  Who actors the return of the Monk, the creation of the space
• 3:14:41
  security universe and some less successful ones.
• 3:14:45
  Epic James Lark says with the premise lifted from Flash
• 3:14:48
  Gordon, it can't make up its mind whether it's space opera,
• 3:14:51
  camp comedy or. Brutal thriller, yet the whole
• 3:14:53
  is greater than the sum of its parts.
• 3:14:55
  The inconsistency of style actually contributes to the
• 3:14:58
  disturbing unpredictability, and Campfield directs it with a
• 3:15:02
  seriousness and energy that leaves you breathless.
• 3:15:06
  He's not wrong with any of that. Daniel Knight.
• 3:15:08
  A true epic. I really want to get it back.
• 3:15:11
  Again, Nation scripts are seriously dark with dark with
• 3:15:14
  characters. We like getting brutally killed
• 3:15:17
  off. When Dennis Spooner helps out,
• 3:15:19
  we get a bit more fun with the Monk.
• 3:15:21
  Until that last episode. Andy Parkinson's is one of the
• 3:15:24
  bleakest stories in the whole of Who.
• 3:15:25
  I'd love to be able to see the whole thing, but the audio
• 3:15:28
  version is great. Overwhelming, intense Keep it
• 3:15:31
  Luke Sims Jenkins today at least my favorite TV story epic,
• 3:15:36
  dangerous, fast-paced with. Great villains and an
• 3:15:38
  unforgettable ending. Jack Koya says an epic once in a
• 3:15:41
  lifetime event mostly pays off. Ultimately, it changes up the
• 3:15:45
  scenery enough to stay. Interesting, but maybe the Terry
• 3:15:48
  Nation portions could be reduced.
• 3:15:50
  Watching it's tragic end, you whether wonder whether this is
• 3:15:52
  the same tennis spoon and make you chuckle frequently
• 3:15:55
  throughout the previous year or so.
• 3:15:57
  Jason Thompson, my favorite Hartnell At 12 episodes, it has
• 3:16:01
  no business hanging together as well as it does.
• 3:16:03
  He did the commentary of all 13 episodes or 12 + 1 of this.
• 3:16:08
  It's great to see the Monk again.
• 3:16:10
  And that bitchy black Dalek is wonderful if you make your
• 3:16:13
  incompetence sound like an achievement.
• 3:16:15
  It's such a great line, I'm just itching to be able to use it in
• 3:16:19
  real life. Also Kevin Stoney is sublime as
• 3:16:22
  Chin Gareth Boli says, an epic which holds together very well
• 3:16:25
  considering how long it is. Even the audio is extremely
• 3:16:28
  engaging. Plus, it's always good to see
• 3:16:30
  The Monk, my nemesis Michael Storm.
• 3:16:33
  An utter masterpiece that sums up the entire Hartnell era.
• 3:16:36
  We have the Grim. Oppressiveness of the 1st 6
• 3:16:39
  episodes, experimental fun in seven through 10, and finally a
• 3:16:43
  finale with a largely absent Hartnell.
• 3:16:45
  My favorite Dalek story and my favorite Hartnell.
• 3:16:49
  Sam Rogers says my favorite, as it really feels like we're
• 3:16:52
  hitting a crescendo with the Daleks and despite the story's
• 3:16:54
  length. It keeps.
• 3:16:55
  Me engaged a mix of everything including action, humor, horror,
• 3:16:59
  camp, and sadness. Truly an epic.
• 3:17:02
  Epic. That's the word, isn't it?
• 3:17:04
  John Hall. Very much a game of two halves.
• 3:17:06
  The 1st is undeniably. Stronger and better plotted.
• 3:17:09
  Grimness abounds with Stevens wound, Katarina's shocking self
• 3:17:13
  sacrifice and sorrow, Kingdom's callous murder of Brett Vian.
• 3:17:17
  Part 7 to 12 show the narrative stretching.
• 3:17:20
  Then things get back on track with a return to Kemble and a
• 3:17:22
  frustrating lack of heart in the win.
• 3:17:24
  Part 11. Oh that's great.
• 3:17:26
  UPS the danger. Finally, the Denumon that we all
• 3:17:29
  want to see Paul Smyth is a true epic.
• 3:17:32
  It's that word again. And the cracking good story,
• 3:17:34
  too, let down by a ridiculous Christmas.
• 3:17:36
  Episode This story has it all. Kevin Stoney's Mavic Chan is
• 3:17:40
  superb. Paul Cressa Great moments but
• 3:17:43
  about 6 episodes too long. There's quite a good story
• 3:17:47
  there. But.
• 3:17:47
  They rerun the chase in the middle.
• 3:17:49
  Would love to see the last episode though.
• 3:17:51
  Anthony Carroll says the existing episodes of good and
• 3:17:53
  Part 2 is great but I feel the story is too long.
• 3:17:56
  Very bleak. And finally, Joe Short.
• 3:18:00
  Joe Short as succinct as ever. Bloody hell, Nicholas Courtney
• 3:18:03
  was. A very sexy man, That is all.
• 3:18:07
  Do you know you get to see his nipples in episode 1?
• 3:18:11
  You do have you? That's.
• 3:18:17
  My favorite? Bit of trivia tonight.
• 3:18:20
  You know that you've seen the, the, the the.
• 3:18:24
  Image of. They've got a.
• 3:18:25
  Bit of back. Projection going on, haven't
• 3:18:27
  they? There's something in the notes
• 3:18:29
  somewhere where they they sort of rig up some sort of 3D
• 3:18:35
  rotating imagery of Brett Vaillon and he's topless.
• 3:18:43
  Oh yes, when the. Yeah, yeah.
• 3:18:47
  Duty Brigade. A Crikey.
• 3:18:49
  Before we go to everyone. Else's comments Rod, I'm.
• 3:18:53
  Feeling really bad. Now for being very down.
• 3:18:55
  On this, and I think I was, I think I was a bit mean and
• 3:18:59
  insane. You can describe the plot in one
• 3:19:01
  sentence because ultimately you could do that with any Doctor
• 3:19:03
  Who story, couldn't you? So I am going to expand upon
• 3:19:07
  that and give you a good a good breakdown of what happens in the
• 3:19:13
  Dog Master Plan. Go for it.
• 3:19:16
  Stand by for Danger TV's Doctor Who returns.
• 3:19:20
  And all new adventure as he faces off against his ultimate.
• 3:19:23
  Foe those metal monsters. From.
• 3:19:24
  Scaro the Daleks, Doctor Who and his plucky chums land on the
• 3:19:29
  jungle planet of Campbell, where they uncover a dastardly.
• 3:19:32
  Scheme by the Daleks to conquer. The universe slash Galaxy slash
• 3:19:35
  Solar system Delete as appropriate, using the ultimate
• 3:19:38
  weapon, the deadly Timed Destructor.
• 3:19:42
  Seizing his opportunity, Doctor Who steals the vital component
• 3:19:45
  of this gruesome device, the Terranium core, and goes on the
• 3:19:49
  run. Join Doctor Who as he visits the
• 3:19:52
  jungle planet of Desperus, the planet Earth, the jungle planet
• 3:19:55
  of Refuses, the planet Earth, the planet Earth, the planet
• 3:20:01
  Earth again, the planet Earth, and then the jungle planet of
• 3:20:04
  Campbell. Again, where he will.
• 3:20:05
  Finally, after a day of sightseeing, pay 2 the Daleks
• 3:20:10
  master plan. That sounds amazingly good.
• 3:20:15
  I. Love.
• 3:20:15
  That how can what idiot would not put that through?
• 3:20:19
  Yeah, what idiot. So I I.
• 3:20:21
  I hope that dramatic reading of the plot of of the Dollar Master
• 3:20:24
  Plan some was. Some way to Atonia for my crime?
• 3:20:26
  Of not liking it. It has inspired us to greater
• 3:20:29
  things, Fraser. And Speaking of greater things,
• 3:20:32
  Tim, over to you. Right.
• 3:20:37
  OK. In your opinion, will be the
• 3:20:39
  superior? One I I am putting Dalit's.
• 3:20:41
  Master plan in the bin. I'm not really.
• 3:20:48
  You just wanted to keep me. Awake this far into the episode,
• 3:20:51
  I'm not. Bloody so.
• 3:20:55
  What Fraser? Describes as a weakness.
• 3:21:00
  I think it's a question of framing.
• 3:21:03
  So like you said, Joe can Doctor Who be a treadmill Flash Gordon
• 3:21:11
  esque It's over used Flash Gordon esque but Saturday tea
• 3:21:15
  time American sci-fi series Should it be 1?
• 3:21:21
  I don't know but when it does it here I.
• 3:21:24
  Think it's very. Good.
• 3:21:27
  I think it's three months. Yes.
• 3:21:31
  I don't think it really lets up. I'll I wasn't planning on
• 3:21:35
  speaking about feasts of Steven, but I'll come back to that.
• 3:21:42
  You've got five weeks at the start of Space Agents.
• 3:21:45
  And criminals. And politics.
• 3:21:47
  Then Myra. For a.
• 3:21:49
  Bit sort of traditional Dalek stuff.
• 3:21:54
  Then it's OK, you go to Zed cars for a week.
• 3:21:59
  I'll come back to that, but then fuck it, a bit of light comedy
• 3:22:03
  with Peter Butterworth coming back.
• 3:22:06
  And him and the. Doctor exchanging badinage for
• 3:22:09
  an episode. I don't mind that because it was
• 3:22:11
  brilliant first time round. And then we're back to harrowing
• 3:22:17
  horror. There's nothing in here that
• 3:22:22
  that drops pace for me at all, really.
• 3:22:26
  I'm not quite as fond. Of the Egypt episodes, as I am
• 3:22:30
  of the rest of it, I'm not quite as fond of Episode 7 as I am of
• 3:22:34
  the rest of it. But I just think every story
• 3:22:41
  this season we're being asked to treat Doctor Who is something
• 3:22:44
  else. And for this one, we're being
• 3:22:46
  asked to treat it like a run-of-the-mill.
• 3:22:49
  And you know what? If Doctor Who was this.
• 3:22:53
  If Doctor Who was 50 episodes of this setting being chased around
• 3:23:00
  by the Daleks with some space agents in.
• 3:23:03
  Space. I'd quite like it and.
• 3:23:06
  I don't think I'd get particularly bored of it after
• 3:23:08
  40 episodes to be honest. If.
• 3:23:11
  Doctor Who? If this is what Doctor Who is,
• 3:23:15
  I'd quite enjoy that. So I don't mind the 12 parts,
• 3:23:18
  and I think it's a strength of it, to be honest, that it
• 3:23:21
  sustains the way it does. Just on that, on that episode 7,
• 3:23:34
  it wasn't even conceived to be sold with the rest of the.
• 3:23:36
  Stories it's a one off so if you don't like it just don't watch
• 3:23:39
  it. And then that sounds really
• 3:23:41
  grumpy, but that's how it was conceived to be.
• 3:23:44
  Episode 5, sorry, excuse me, Episode 6 to episode 8, when
• 3:23:50
  they tried something overseas, they didn't even bother with
• 3:23:53
  episode 7. But episode 7 as a piece of TV
• 3:23:56
  history, Well, it would have been great if there'd have gone
• 3:23:58
  zed cars because they like a bit of zed cars.
• 3:24:00
  But Even so, very often, Christmas Day TV, they talk to
• 3:24:07
  the camera, they'd sing Christmas.
• 3:24:08
  Carols, they do this, do that. There's.
• 3:24:10
  Nothing wrong with Doctor Who doing a bit of that and we don't
• 3:24:14
  really know what it looks like, but it'll look pretty good
• 3:24:17
  because it was Camfield and there's some outrageous racism
• 3:24:21
  at the end, which this always, always nice on Christmas Day,
• 3:24:27
  which is always, always brings a festive nostalgia to things.
• 3:24:31
  Doesn't it? No, I think it would be
• 3:24:33
  fascinating. As a piece of vintage TV and for
• 3:24:37
  that I find it fascinating. So I don't really have an sort
• 3:24:41
  of subjective opinion about it because I'm just fascinated by
• 3:24:46
  what it is. Anyway, I don't mind the 12
• 3:24:49
  parts. The production is superb.
• 3:24:52
  Friend of mine. Says that the.
• 3:24:54
  Clips we have from episode 1 with I've Gone by Brian Kent.
• 3:25:05
  In the jungle, he said, that is the best 19. 60s Doctor Who ever
• 3:25:10
  looks and that's hard to disagree with.
• 3:25:13
  That is some beautiful footage with exciting directorial things
• 3:25:20
  like. Angles.
• 3:25:24
  Can I Can I just interrupt while on the subject of Brian, can't
• 3:25:27
  to shout out to the space names because I really like the space
• 3:25:30
  names. Kurt Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 3:25:33
  It's proper flash morning, isn't it?
• 3:25:35
  It's like space adventurer. It's a Terry Nation strength.
• 3:25:38
  There's no. I love a space name but but.
• 3:25:42
  Considering it was such a. Nightmare to make considering
• 3:25:45
  the production. Units the.
• 3:25:46
  The. Set.
• 3:25:47
  Designers were putting in written complaints about Cam
• 3:25:50
  Field and his demands on them. Even though there's probably,
• 3:25:53
  it's probably not Cam Fields fault, it looks brilliant.
• 3:25:58
  And even the Egyptian stuff, which I'm not quite so fun
• 3:26:01
  though have you seen how bloody big and impressive that pyramid
• 3:26:03
  was? It is huge.
• 3:26:07
  The future looks great, the model work looks great, the spa
• 3:26:11
  ship looks great with its spinning discs and the direction
• 3:26:16
  looks great from what we can see.
• 3:26:18
  We've got the episode 1 stuff on film, We've got the great shot
• 3:26:21
  of the sun dissolving into the reflection of the helmet.
• 3:26:24
  The Daleks look great. They've got that high Sheen
• 3:26:27
  Polish. Their voices are great.
• 3:26:30
  The Daleks are shot really well. The cast is is great.
• 3:26:40
  Kevin Stoney. I hear what you're saying about
• 3:26:43
  the. The the the Pooh Manchu thing,
• 3:26:49
  but that's not his fault and he's.
• 3:26:53
  Great in it. And he's, and he's a character
• 3:26:57
  that really pulls it all together.
• 3:26:59
  And there's some heartbeat moments, you know, while he
• 3:27:03
  slaps the Dalek guy out of the way and he's not talking over
• 3:27:08
  the top of the Dalek and he's talking over the top of them.
• 3:27:10
  And there's all that hubris and you know he's going to get.
• 3:27:13
  It and he keeps hanging on and. Pushing and pushing and pushing
• 3:27:16
  and pushing and yeah, it's just brilliant.
• 3:27:20
  Keeps referring himself in the third chain.
• 3:27:23
  There's so much, yeah. There's so much going on in
• 3:27:28
  this. They can.
• 3:27:29
  Dispose of Carlton, who's brilliant thoughtlessly, you
• 3:27:35
  know, second next to you with all that sauce, and then they
• 3:27:41
  just get rid of him because there's so much stuff to do.
• 3:27:44
  So I just. Think it's, I think for the
• 3:27:46
  strains of the production and because it is a sausage factory
• 3:27:50
  episode after episode after episode after episode by episode
• 3:27:53
  10 that we can see it looks that great.
• 3:27:56
  And Canfield still got the the professionalism and enthusiasm
• 3:28:00
  to be putting those touches in. I think it's it's a superb
• 3:28:07
  production. And then third, I've got the
• 3:28:12
  depths. I've got the death car.
• 3:28:15
  What is going on with this production team?
• 3:28:19
  In one episode, you've got Brett Vaillon, arguably a companion,
• 3:28:23
  getting killed by his sister, who is also a companion.
• 3:28:28
  You've also got Dank Star getting killed with a horrific
• 3:28:34
  shriek and then they throw Katarina out of an hour.
• 3:28:40
  It's a bit of relief. They are.
• 3:28:43
  Nuts, Wiles and tosh are. Absolutely.
• 3:28:48
  Nuts. And it's fascinating.
• 3:28:51
  And that's really, really harrowing.
• 3:28:53
  I can't believe quite this is made for 8 year olds or 6 year
• 3:28:57
  olds or whatever. And so you need a bit of light
• 3:28:59
  relief in a few weeks to get over this.
• 3:29:03
  And then just just just for the heck of it at the end, you're
• 3:29:08
  going to watch the companion of the last three months.
• 3:29:12
  Get aged to death and. Then blasted away in bits of
• 3:29:15
  dust. In the winter time just.
• 3:29:18
  To round it off not only to the Kill Sarah Kingdom, but they.
• 3:29:22
  Did spend about 5 minutes. To do it.
• 3:29:24
  Yes, has to make sure she's really dead.
• 3:29:28
  No, no airlock for you. This is going to.
• 3:29:31
  Take a while. They get it as.
• 3:29:35
  They get. It as a story in its own right,
• 3:29:36
  it. Doesn't even make sense the
• 3:29:38
  whole. Notion of the time destructor.
• 3:29:40
  Doesn't make sense. The whole story Doctor Who is
• 3:29:45
  bobbins. The whole story is.
• 3:29:47
  Bobbins. They do the.
• 3:29:49
  Chase again. But they do it better than.
• 3:29:51
  In the chase. With an actual director, with a
• 3:29:55
  director and a point to it and I.
• 3:29:59
  So that's no criticism. Saying they've done the chase
• 3:30:02
  again because they've done it better.
• 3:30:05
  And a lot of people love the chase.
• 3:30:06
  I don't. I think it's bobbins.
• 3:30:08
  But I quite like it here because I'm in the mood for 12.
• 3:30:11
  I just keep it coming, you know? Anyway, I love it.
• 3:30:14
  I'm saving it, Joe. Yeah.
• 3:30:18
  This is probably my favorite heart now if you want.
• 3:30:21
  Everything that Doctor Who has got to offer in one.
• 3:30:24
  Story. Well here we go.
• 3:30:26
  Horror, drama, comedy, character development, shock twists,
• 3:30:32
  future world building, friendships, history, super
• 3:30:36
  villains, conniving monsters, unfortunate casual racism,
• 3:30:40
  visual weirdness, epic thinking on an intimate budget, alien
• 3:30:45
  worlds, terrifying technology, silliness, Daleks, and a fucking
• 3:30:50
  ton of murder as well. Which is obviously Doctor Who's
• 3:30:53
  stock and trade hasn't got an elephant.
• 3:30:56
  It doesn't have an elephant, no. It has a pyramid.
• 3:31:01
  Yeah. Honestly, if you basically want
• 3:31:03
  to see the potential of Doctor Who.
• 3:31:06
  Across three months. Then the Daleks master plan has
• 3:31:09
  everything and what it does have which so many Doctor Who stories
• 3:31:13
  lack. And we just did season 14 and I
• 3:31:15
  lamented it. There is a good ending.
• 3:31:19
  It sticks the landing. So many doctor climaxes are just
• 3:31:23
  terrible. You were talking about Sara
• 3:31:25
  Kingdom being murdered over 5 minutes.
• 3:31:27
  So much of those last 10 minutes is all done through like sound
• 3:31:30
  effects and music. And even that even divorced of
• 3:31:34
  the visuals is absolutely gripping to listen to.
• 3:31:38
  I can only imagine it terrified the kids watching it.
• 3:31:41
  It's it's, it's an amazing episode of kind of watch the
• 3:31:43
  Recon and hear the soundtrack. And again, it speaks to.
• 3:31:47
  What are we missing? You know, if that's how good it
• 3:31:50
  sounds, what does it look like? You're right as well.
• 3:31:54
  I think 12 is one of the best episodes of Doctor Whoever and
• 3:31:58
  four isn't far behind. And any story that's flaunting
• 3:32:01
  two of the best Doctor Who episodes ever, that's got to go
• 3:32:04
  through. You've got the Daleks at their
• 3:32:06
  best here. I think they're very funny and
• 3:32:08
  very characterful when they're talking, but weird enough,
• 3:32:11
  they're sort of deadly and terrifying when they're silent.
• 3:32:14
  The bit where they killed Maverick Chen in total silence
• 3:32:17
  until the end. And he's fucking hubris when
• 3:32:20
  he's in that cell with those other delegates and he thinks,
• 3:32:23
  oh, they've just left me in here to spy on you, you know, right
• 3:32:27
  to the end. As Tim said, man, oh man, what a
• 3:32:30
  great character. And I think are you, are you?
• 3:32:33
  I'm so sorry. Do you side?
• 3:32:35
  Do you side with the Daleks? When when he's killed?
• 3:32:38
  Oh, for sure, Yeah, it's quite annoying.
• 3:32:41
  Yeah, I guess it's comeuppance, don't I?
• 3:32:43
  I would have shot him in episode 2.
• 3:32:44
  As soon as I saw that right. But Fraser?
• 3:32:46
  I think. You're really wrong about the.
• 3:32:49
  Doctor, in this I think Hartnell's incredible.
• 3:32:51
  In this. I think he's Hartnell's
• 3:32:53
  incredible Hartnell as an actor, but I think the the way the
• 3:32:57
  Doctor. Is the character of the Doctor
• 3:33:00
  is is, you know, written? Isn't, but he spends the first
• 3:33:06
  half of the story improvising at his absolute best, from one
• 3:33:09
  danger to another. Or I mean it just.
• 3:33:11
  Walks in and runs off and goes. He's wondering around, looking
• 3:33:15
  for an aspirin in a pen. And then in the second-half,
• 3:33:17
  he's showing off his comedy chops.
• 3:33:21
  As as a as a story stretching. The actor, I think he's given a
• 3:33:24
  lot of opportunities. He's full of energy.
• 3:33:27
  Eccentricity. He's a great moral compass for
• 3:33:29
  the show. Yeah, and he improvises all the
• 3:33:32
  time. I actually think it's one of his
• 3:33:33
  very best stories. He's showing absolutely no signs
• 3:33:36
  at all of running out of steam at this point.
• 3:33:40
  I hate to agree with Ian Levine, but I'm going to.
• 3:33:43
  Dadali's Master Plan is one of the very best Doctor Who stories
• 3:33:46
  of all time, even if it does have a few saggy bits along the
• 3:33:49
  way. I just think it's brilliant.
• 3:33:52
  Yeah, I'm putting it through. I think he's £50 for his Kitty,
• 3:33:55
  then. OK, do you know what Ian
• 3:33:57
  Levine's favorite episode is? Is is it episode or Dadali's?
• 3:33:59
  Master. Plan. 12/11, 11:11.
• 3:34:04
  His favorite? Episode of Doctor Who doesn't
• 3:34:06
  feature. The Doctor.
• 3:34:07
  His favorite episode of Dalit's Master?
• 3:34:09
  Plan. Don't know why?
• 3:34:12
  Because the Doctor's mysteriously.
• 3:34:14
  Not in it. Isn't it right at?
• 3:34:16
  The beginning, isn't he? And then?
• 3:34:17
  Just mysteriously. Disappears when he goes.
• 3:34:19
  To the city. Strange.
• 3:34:21
  Right Joe I think that summary you just said there superb, epic
• 3:34:25
  little bit flabby in places, but outstanding.
• 3:34:28
  I couldn't agree with you more. Yeah, this is definitely going
• 3:34:30
  through for me. So I love the fact I think it
• 3:34:33
  does something really different early on and I think probably
• 3:34:35
  Terry Nation knew he's got handed 12 weeks.
• 3:34:38
  OK, he's going to split Denis Spooner, but he can't just do a
• 3:34:41
  straightforward goodies versus badies.
• 3:34:43
  He can't just do that straightforward chase again.
• 3:34:46
  So he wants something with a bit more nuance.
• 3:34:49
  And So what they do is they use, he uses war stories because
• 3:34:52
  obviously all the stories are based on war, but he uses those
• 3:34:55
  kind of more intimate stories of occupation where we're
• 3:34:57
  constantly dealing with people's kind of shifting loyalties and
• 3:35:01
  allegiances and betrayals. Because when you watch it, when
• 3:35:03
  I watched it this time, I was just struck by how many times,
• 3:35:07
  think about mostly in that first kind of run of 6 episodes, we're
• 3:35:11
  talking about people's allegiances and alliances and
• 3:35:14
  where they stand. It's constantly shifting.
• 3:35:17
  So we start with Maverick Chen, obviously, who we learn is
• 3:35:20
  betraying Solar System. Then we find out by episode 5
• 3:35:23
  actually he's planning to betray them and take over himself.
• 3:35:26
  And then obviously the Daleks betray him.
• 3:35:29
  You've got Brett, who works against the Doctor at the start,
• 3:35:32
  but once he's on side he's then thoughts.
• 3:35:34
  Of a as a traitor by. The SSS and killed by his sister
• 3:35:37
  Sarah, and then she changes sides to work with the doctor.
• 3:35:42
  Even amongst the delegates in Episode 3, you've got that
• 3:35:44
  business between Chen and Saffron, trying to work out
• 3:35:48
  who's betrayed the Daleks by revealing the presence of the
• 3:35:51
  Terranium Court, even though neither of them have done.
• 3:35:53
  But it's all that discussion about whose betrayal, who's
• 3:35:56
  loyal, and obviously Zaphon is in that somebody gets
• 3:35:59
  exterminated. Then in Episode 4, Trantis wants
• 3:36:02
  to stab Maverick Chen in the back.
• 3:36:04
  Maverick Chen wants to stab Trantis in the back.
• 3:36:09
  Yeah. And at the same time that's
• 3:36:10
  going on, you're in Central City, where Brett is betrayed by
• 3:36:13
  his friend Baxter. So you've.
• 3:36:15
  Got all these machinations going on.
• 3:36:17
  Such a shame you guys have already talked about it.
• 3:36:19
  Such a shame that we lost that other one with with Carlton and
• 3:36:22
  Chan because that's starting to form and rub along in episode 5.
• 3:36:26
  So it's just so interesting to see that he's doing something.
• 3:36:29
  Really. Yeah.
• 3:36:30
  It's just so intriguing to see all that, that shifting
• 3:36:33
  allegiance. It just makes the story much
• 3:36:35
  more involving rather than just you're the goody, you're the
• 3:36:37
  baddie. It's who's going to switch
• 3:36:39
  sides, who's loyal, who's not. And we lose a lot of that
• 3:36:43
  actually, once Dennis Spooner comes on board, but not
• 3:36:44
  completely. The stuff with the monk, yes, we
• 3:36:48
  start off with him and the Doctor trading insults.
• 3:36:50
  But then by the time we get to Egypt, we get to that quite
• 3:36:52
  interesting storyline of is the monk going to betray the Doctor
• 3:36:56
  to the Dalek? So you get that kind of because
• 3:36:58
  obviously they're, they come from the same race.
• 3:37:00
  They've got a sense of loyalty to each other.
• 3:37:03
  So again, there's that whole kind of who is going to betray
• 3:37:05
  who again? And then we get to the final
• 3:37:08
  denouement and all the council delegates want to betray Chen,
• 3:37:11
  but the Daleks betray them. It's just, it's layer upon layer
• 3:37:15
  upon layer. But what that does is it just
• 3:37:16
  keeps the story constantly moving and constantly
• 3:37:19
  interesting because you don't know who's going to switch
• 3:37:21
  sides. Something that makes that 12
• 3:37:24
  weeks go really speedily. Second thing that again struck
• 3:37:29
  me slightly off key. Obviously you can see lots of
• 3:37:33
  Terry Nation tropes in this, but I can also see an awful lot of
• 3:37:35
  Blake 7 in here. There's so many little Blake 7
• 3:37:38
  tweaks. We've got a totalitarian state
• 3:37:41
  where one of the highest offices is built by a camp super
• 3:37:44
  villain. You know in episode 5, you see
• 3:37:46
  Mavic Chen do his big maximum power speech just like Serval
• 3:37:49
  and you've got the Super villain chasing our heroes across the
• 3:37:52
  universe. They're escaping not one but two
• 3:37:54
  stolen spaceships and then they later use this innovative form
• 3:37:58
  of teleport technology that's not been discovered before.
• 3:38:03
  Just think of episode 3 alone. That whole business with the the
• 3:38:06
  ship coming down onto desperate and all the criminals trying to
• 3:38:09
  grab control of the Super super spaceship.
• 3:38:13
  If that's not Blake 7's second episode, I don't know what is.
• 3:38:17
  And ultimately obviously got revolving cast of heroes one
• 3:38:20
  anti heroes the constant throughout accompanied by a
• 3:38:23
  member of the security forces whose Brett Vion here rather
• 3:38:26
  than Tarrant got gum gum toting females like Dana and Zulin and
• 3:38:31
  Sarah. So yeah, you've got an awful lot
• 3:38:33
  of antecedents of Blake Southern in this just the regulars at the
• 3:38:37
  end. Absolutely yeah, good point.
• 3:38:40
  Yeah, spoiler. And then finally, like you've
• 3:38:43
  all said, there's. So many rug pulls in this.
• 3:38:46
  Tim, you've. Summed up brilliantly.
• 3:38:48
  Just so you. Know all.
• 3:38:49
  These people that we think of are going to be companions.
• 3:38:52
  Katarina dies. Brett, we think will be a
• 3:38:54
  companion. He dies.
• 3:38:56
  Sarah dies. And then, you know, in the midst
• 3:38:59
  of that, we've got a runaround at Christmas.
• 3:39:01
  It's balmy and bonkers. There's so many rug pulls.
• 3:39:05
  It's just you don't know what's coming next and if that's not
• 3:39:08
  what gripping TV is, I don't know what is.
• 3:39:11
  So absolutely this is going through right gentlemen?
• 3:39:16
  We've finally got to the end of round one.
• 3:39:20
  However, 4 hours in, we're at round two.
• 3:39:23
  I have mentioned earlier we have already.
• 3:39:24
  Jettisoned through, we've lost. Mission to the.
• 3:39:27
  Unknown first, then we lost. Galaxy 4 and then the R.
• 3:39:31
  So we're only left with the two historicals and the dialect
• 3:39:34
  Master plan epic. So I'm only going to get chance
• 3:39:37
  to to spin my magic wheel once, which is very disappointing.
• 3:39:42
  But Joe Camp music, please music ago.
• 3:39:46
  Spin, spin, spin the wheel the justice.
• 3:39:49
  See how? Fast, the bastard.
• 3:39:52
  And we start with the Massacre. And the Massacre is playing the
• 3:39:57
  Dalek. Master Plan.
• 3:40:02
  Tim Dalek, master plan or massacre?
• 3:40:05
  Which is going to go? Well, arms up my.
• 3:40:12
  Back Isn't it the massacre? Is going.
• 3:40:19
  Massacre is going. OK, no, it's not going.
• 3:40:23
  Through It's going in the bin. Going in the bin, yeah, yeah.
• 3:40:25
  Yeah, yeah. So.
• 3:40:26
  Massacre out, Fraser. I'm going to vote for.
• 3:40:32
  That. Must have got to go through I
• 3:40:34
  think. There is.
• 3:40:37
  There is a lot to enjoy in Dark Master.
• 3:40:38
  Plan doing it as well, but I think as a story, as A1 cohesive
• 3:40:44
  whole, the massacre stands up better than the.
• 3:40:51
  Dark. Master plan, so sorry.
• 3:40:53
  You. Want a?
• 3:40:54
  Pace Jack. I think the massacre is doing.
• 3:40:58
  Something that we or will enjoy now.
• 3:41:01
  But I think. Darla's master plan is doing.
• 3:41:03
  What the audience enjoy then. Nicely put right there.
• 3:41:08
  I think the Darla's master plan should go through.
• 3:41:12
  I. Think I will.
• 3:41:16
  Probably agree with you as well as bold and innovative and as.
• 3:41:22
  Engaging as the Massacre is, it's so hard to judge on both,
• 3:41:26
  on particularly the mask of being completely missing.
• 3:41:29
  But the Dalek master plan I think has just got so many
• 3:41:33
  pivotal moments for what Doctor Who was and will be in the
• 3:41:37
  future. I think we've got to put it
• 3:41:39
  through at this stage and it's up against something but so
• 3:41:43
  atypical in the massacre. But I think the the Dalek master
• 3:41:47
  plan is is Doctor Who in a nutshell, isn't it?
• 3:41:49
  So sorry, massacre, you're off. So we have our final than we've
• 3:41:54
  ever had one got to a final quite so quickly, Joe.
• 3:41:58
  We've got the myth makers playing with Dalek's master
• 3:42:01
  plan. I think this one might be a.
• 3:42:03
  Little bit more I'll. Get this out of the way quickly
• 3:42:05
  and let's leave it to our guest to sort of battle it out at the
• 3:42:08
  end. I think this.
• 3:42:10
  Is 2 of the very best Doctor Who stories back-to-back in season
• 3:42:15
  3, which shows just how good this season is.
• 3:42:19
  But because it was such an unexpected delight.
• 3:42:24
  When? I discovered it.
• 3:42:26
  Last year I'm going to put the map, the myth makers, very
• 3:42:30
  sorry, because I just adored it. And I think, I think it's
• 3:42:35
  actually more sure of what it's doing.
• 3:42:37
  The Dallas master plan, I think the.
• 3:42:38
  Dallas Master is probably better executed, but yeah, oh, man, it
• 3:42:43
  was just so fun, so, so funny and so bloody scary at the end.
• 3:42:49
  Yeah, myth makers, myth makers to win.
• 3:42:53
  The problem, Joe, is you said is better executed and we've got
• 3:42:56
  nothing really apart from those tiny little.
• 3:42:59
  Fleeting glimpses. We've got so little to see in
• 3:43:02
  Mythmate No which are wrong. We've got David Gillespie's
• 3:43:06
  examination of the cameras. Which proved that in fact the
• 3:43:11
  the cuts between shots were a lot quicker than usual, so we
• 3:43:13
  know. It was quite pacey.
• 3:43:15
  And yeah, he put together a very stylish picture for me.
• 3:43:18
  It looks amazing. Yeah, I did not read somewhere
• 3:43:22
  about them saying that there was a some complaints to the BBC
• 3:43:25
  saying that the. The Trojans axing the horse was
• 3:43:27
  really slow and lacked pace. But hey, people complain about
• 3:43:31
  everything. Like you, I am probably Myth
• 3:43:36
  makers is probably the last story.
• 3:43:39
  Doctor Who story that I've discovered properly.
• 3:43:41
  Because I had shunned it for many years, thinking it's just a
• 3:43:44
  lot of shouting. I just couldn't get on board
• 3:43:46
  with her. But re engage with it now, it is
• 3:43:50
  magnificent. The Daleks.
• 3:43:54
  Has episode 7 which singers Terry Nation was a comedy
• 3:43:57
  writer? Is probably the lamest bit.
• 3:43:59
  Of so-called comedies worse than Chuckle Vision, Cracker Jack,
• 3:44:04
  Emu's Broadcasting World. They are all in the
• 3:44:08
  award-winning compared to episode 7.
• 3:44:10
  Hey, calm down. No no no no no no.
• 3:44:12
  You don't come to Chuckle Vision, you don't come.
• 3:44:14
  I was. Praising it.
• 3:44:15
  I was praising it, I. Was praising it and myth makers
• 3:44:20
  comedy I mean. Just to put the two comedy side
• 3:44:23
  by side, I'm going to go myth makers as well.
• 3:44:29
  Let's go to Fraser. Yeah, it's.
• 3:44:33
  Going to be myth makers. And me as well, just, you know,
• 3:44:38
  if you put them side. By side, if you kind of put them
• 3:44:41
  a level of playing field, Obviously we can't see bits of
• 3:44:45
  of master plan record of myth makers, but you know, the things
• 3:44:49
  that you can, you know, compare equally, you know, so the
• 3:44:52
  performances I think are better in in myth makers.
• 3:44:55
  I think the the story is better in myth makers.
• 3:44:59
  I think the companion exits are probably better in myth makers.
• 3:45:03
  And just for the record, I do not consider Sarah Kingdom a
• 3:45:06
  companion. It's Katarina and that's it.
• 3:45:12
  But you know, just putting them side by side and, you know, put
• 3:45:18
  this. But if I.
• 3:45:19
  Wanted to go and watch. One now which?
• 3:45:21
  One would I probably want to go and watch the myth makers if you
• 3:45:25
  said, oh, you know, pick which one's going to be animated next.
• 3:45:28
  Myth makers. You know, it's just that little
• 3:45:31
  bit above on every level for me than the master plan.
• 3:45:37
  Well, I feel really dirty. Really nice.
• 3:45:41
  That's what Strictly is all about.
• 3:45:43
  Because everyone always goes what's your most wanted missing?
• 3:45:45
  Episode. And.
• 3:45:46
  Everyone always goes. The MP. 12 and I.
• 3:45:49
  Whisper gently it's myth makers 2 and no one wants no one wants
• 3:45:53
  2 or because you've got all of the banter between Prime and
• 3:45:59
  Vicky and all of. That stuff you've got.
• 3:46:01
  All of Cassandra and howling and I but I feel really dirty saying
• 3:46:08
  the myth. Makers.
• 3:46:09
  Because it doesn't feel right. If this is, what do I want back?
• 3:46:14
  If this is, what do I want back? It would be Dolly.
• 3:46:18
  'S master plan. If, as this is, what is the?
• 3:46:24
  What do I enjoy the. Most it's definitely the.
• 3:46:27
  Myth Makers. The Myth Makers is the best
• 3:46:29
  Doctor Who story there is. So I'm going for the Myth
• 3:46:31
  Makers. That's four nil.
• 3:46:33
  That's crazy. 4 nil. Sorry, Ian Levine.
• 3:46:37
  Myth Makers has taken. It I'm going to get.
• 3:46:40
  Booted out of my. WhatsApp chat stand proud, we
• 3:46:45
  have found. Our place of perfection, Don't
• 3:46:47
  worry. About this Tim, I'm not even in
• 3:46:49
  anything WhatsApp. I was really hoping that was
• 3:46:53
  going to win and. But I didn't think in in a
• 3:46:55
  million years that it. Would so.
• 3:46:57
  Hooray. Fantastic.
• 3:46:59
  Well, yet again, we have bucked the trend from the standard
• 3:47:02
  folders and we have our. Winner for this chunk.
• 3:47:06
  Thank you, Fraser. I'll take that.
• 3:47:08
  This chunk. Of.
• 3:47:09
  Season 3 and we've got the Myth Makers.
• 3:47:11
  We've master plan in a worthy second role.
• 3:47:14
  Gentlemen, thank you so much for your epic.
• 3:47:16
  We've talked about epic. This has been epic.
• 3:47:18
  Thank you so much for your time. Is there anything you would like
• 3:47:21
  to plug, promote or direct people towards?
• 3:47:24
  Tim, let's start with you. You can find the Doctor Who
• 3:47:27
  Missing Episodes podcast with a Google search, so come and have
• 3:47:30
  a listen. They're not out as often as I
• 3:47:33
  would like, but there's now 18 of them.
• 3:47:37
  Absolutely tremendous stuff. The The season 3 ones are a real
• 3:47:42
  joy, and there's some real. Gems in there and.
• 3:47:44
  Some really great guests, like for instance, with Dolly's
• 3:47:47
  master plan, our guest Gav, he pieces together what the
• 3:47:52
  original story was and you know, there's all sorts of great
• 3:47:57
  camera scripts, analysis and stuff that goes on.
• 3:47:59
  Just come in, come in, come and check us out.
• 3:48:01
  It's the if you don't like it, you never need to listen again.
• 3:48:05
  But Doctor Who missing episodes podcast.
• 3:48:07
  I don't think anybody that listens to this podcast would
• 3:48:09
  not enjoy it then, Fraser, I'm I'm going to listen even.
• 3:48:13
  If it's just for the music at the start and gather, I will
• 3:48:16
  enjoy it. Yes, you can fight me all over
• 3:48:20
  the place. Because I'm.
• 3:48:22
  As Joe would put it. A big old.
• 3:48:24
  Podcast Whore and I will go wherever anyone will let me talk
• 3:48:29
  about Doctor Who, so places like Trap 1 and Gallifrey's most.
• 3:48:34
  Wanted and Doctor. Who literature and lots of
• 3:48:39
  others. And there's this little one
• 3:48:41
  called I'm star with the with the yeah, that's where I've been
• 3:48:48
  on the most. So, you know, you might want to
• 3:48:49
  check it out there. And I've also got a little.
• 3:48:50
  Blog as well, which I did. For the 60th anniversary.
• 3:48:53
  Which people and seem to enjoy which is Sky's
• 3:48:57
  fullofdiamonds.wordpress.com where you can see my 60 greatest
• 3:49:04
  Doctor Who stories ever if you want to have a read through
• 3:49:06
  those and it's totally. Bonkers.
• 3:49:09
  So thank you both, Fraser, Tim, thank you for your time.
• 3:49:12
  Joe next. Time we will be doing season 13,
• 3:49:16
  so Tom Baker's second series. We've talked tonight about
• 3:49:20
  landing in 13. Yeah, we're talking about
• 3:49:22
  landing the landings. Will will that happen in season?
• 3:49:26
  13, maybe less. Than you think it's got pyramids
• 3:49:29
  and Mars in it. So, gentlemen, thank you very
• 3:49:32
  much, Joe. Thanks for tonight.
• 3:49:35
  All it leaves for us to say. Is.
• 3:49:37
  Thanks for listening and keep listening.
• 3:49:41
  The name on be praised. Oh, good night.
• 3:49:44
  Good night everyone. The.