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What I've Learnt - Lisa Messenger & Sarah Megginson · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, 14 years of friendship, eight years of trying, eighteen rounds of IVF, and now one beautiful baby boy.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: The power of two is a remarkable true story that shows how together we can do more than we ever thought possible.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Lisa and Sarah's journey begins with a working relationship and transforms with a life-changing act of love and friendship.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: But this book is about so much more.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: A powerful ode to community, resilience, and the power summoned when we support each other.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, from the outside, Lisa Messenger, who I've known for a long time, was the constant success story.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: A highly respected publishing professional, a shooting star in the entrepreneurial space.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: But privately, Lisa was struggling with the one thing she could not achieve through hard work and a positive attitude.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: She'd almost given up on having a child.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when her dear friend Sarah Meginson came to her with an extraordinary offer.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: A deeply personal exploration of grief, hope, and rebirth.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: This book is proof that together we are stronger, more resilient, and infinitely more powerful.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: This is the power of two, a wonderful story of friendship.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is a deeply personal exploration of grief, hope, and rebirth.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: This book is proof that together we are stronger, more resilient, and infinitely more powerful.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: This is the power of two.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so thrilled to have the beautiful Lisa Messenger, who I've known for a long time, and the wonderful Sarah, who I have to say I don't know well, but having read the book and seeing what you two have done, I'm super inspired and excited to meet you.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: So why don't we start, Lisa?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Let's start with you talking about this extraordinary journey that you actually went on very privately for a long time.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: No one fully knew just how much you were struggling, me included, I knew a little bit.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: I had a little inkling, but to be honest, everybody respected your private journey as one should.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: How did you first realize this was going to be a big climb every mountain moment for you?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: As in starting to speak about it publicly.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: No, actually starting to try and starting to realize that what you thought would be you weren't really prepared, that you'd have to do 18 rounds and that you'd have to go on this particularly tough journey.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: No, I thank you.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thanks, Deb.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think the thing is, uh, for anyone who's listening who is thinking about this journey, I think the problem is a little bit the educational piece, or in my case, maybe the naivety.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but I just thought always that I would just have a baby.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we're always taught or told, you know, just be careful, wear a condom, go on the pill, you know, don't get pregnant.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: So true.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so I feel like for most of our, well, my twenties anyway, I kind of lived in fear of, oh my God, God forbid, and did everything right, not really realizing that actually for most people it's about three days of the month when you can actually fall pregnant.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then I started my business in 2001, and I just loved business so much.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think, you know, in my 20s, I kind of was like scared of getting pregnant, and then my 30s, I kind of was like so career-driven and just loved it, and that was my baby in a way, and so I kind of forgot to have a baby, or I just was like, I'll do that when I'm ready, you know.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I just, I mean, in hindsight, it's a little bit silly, really, not to have thought more.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I know now there's a lot.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I was having a conversation with someone yesterday, and they were saying, Oh my gosh, you know, such and such is freezing their eggs and this and that.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I just think in my younger days, certainly, it wasn't even a thing, it wasn't even a display.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: Wasn't a touching point.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, our generation, yeah.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: We weren't we weren't really educated.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: I actually think that that's a very important reflection because I think the next gen are much more informed than we are, or we were, and there was no reason for you to suggest, you know, it was quite reasonable to keep working, do your thing, and then just try when you were ready.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, I feel like it's interesting the generational thing.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, my mum had me when I was when she was 24, and I feel like our parents' generation often had children earlier, and it was just what you did.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then we're kind of um maybe my generation a bit more career-driven or whatever, and like you know, scared of falling pregnant to the wrong person, and then just think it's gonna happen.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I do hope, and I do think actually, that there is more education now, and also um younger women I think are more body, you know, aware.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I just didn't understand how it all worked.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: And now I certainly do, and I wish I didn't a lot of it.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's what that's definitely pregnancy and going on that birth journey certainly uh does make us very aware of absolutely every element of our body.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: As you, Sarah, would know you're a mother of three, as I understand.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um and for you, and we'll we'll bring in how you and and Lisa ended up forging this extraordinary journey together.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: But as a mother, I think it's interesting.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: We don't fully understand just how complex our bodies are until we embark on this pregnancy journey.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Would you agree, Sarah?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's so funny you say that because I had an appointment probably only maybe like six months ago with um the nurse at our obstetrician, Dr.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Drew, with the nurse at his office about something to do with my lady parts.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: And she was explaining how all the pieces fit down there.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I looked at her and I was like, I've given birth four times, and I didn't know the cervix sat in that spot against your bladder and all of that stuff because I've had some pelvic floor issues, and she was helping me understand how it was all happening.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, how am I in my 40s?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: I've had four births, I've been pregnant six times.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: How did I not know this basic stuff?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like there's just huge bits of information, as Lisa said, that we just don't learn, we're not exposed to.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, the information we get for us when we were growing up, it was celebrity magazines where there was always a celebrity on the cover who was, yeah, yeah, Dolly was the best.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: That was when you're in your teens.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Dolly Doctor was our education.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then as we got older, it was celebrity magazines with, you know, celebrities in their 40s on the cover being pregnant.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that lulled some people into a false sense of security, like, oh, it can just happen.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't remember the sense of urgency back then that we have now, of that knowledge that kind of once you're in your 30s, you're starting to go on a different journey.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: You're a geriatric criticism.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: You are wild.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: You are.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: The terminology needs some changing.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: It does.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And on that note, that's very important what you're both saying because you know, I mentioned that I have a doctor, daughter, and she is in her 30s, and she's working very closely with the gender gap.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of what we're talking about is as women, we should have been informed, educated.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's also like the, you know, the menopause story that everyone's talking about now.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: This feeds into our the fundamental problem that we were just very almost flying blind.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: We just went like, and we're still, to some degree, we're getting much more educated than we were.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: But her generation, they are so much more informed.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like to her, what are you just telling me stuff?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I didn't know that.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: And unlike your mom, like she, yes, she's a doctor, but she's also a young woman.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of her peers are much more informed about getting pregnant, what you need to do, what hormones you need to take, what powders.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what are all these powders these kids take?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And just the health in general.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're so right.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: My my eldest is 14.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: She went to the beach with her friends yesterday.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: And as she was getting ready, I grabbed the sunscreen for her and she said, Oh God, that the UV index is 10 today.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, What?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: She said, We all have it on our phones.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, What's it meant to mean?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like under four or something.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, okay, we'll pack extra sunscreen, like off you go.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: But they're just so that next generation down from us are so much more informed and in tune with their body and not afraid to ask questions.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just, it's a whole different world.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank goodness.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, Lisa, coming back to you, so you embark on your, hey, I'm ready for a baby journey.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: And what happens, then?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's I'll give you the cliff note.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Full story is in the book.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I ended up writing the book because it's just so much, right?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: But the cliff notes are this, actually, and I'll add an extra cliff note which isn't in the book and we've not discussed anywhere.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: But I was actually married when I was 30, and I just thought I'd get pregnant with that guy.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, that wedding, that marriage shouldn't last very long.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: There's a little bit of extra tidbit.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: But then my next um partner, we actually did get pregnant in 2015 together, and I was just so excited, and you know, I thought, well, this is great, you know, and it was sort of kind of planned, but not really.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like fabulous.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, my magazine and my business was really taking off, and I was in love, and so that was fabulous.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then I had a miscarriage um with that baby, and that was not meant to be, and then our relationship ended shortly thereafter, and then it kind of ignited this I really, really want a baby now.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I went on a trip to Bali later that year, spent my birthday in an orphanage because I was like, even though I'm like in the public eye a lot, I was like, I just want to do something for someone else.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: Met this little six-month-old baby, Gracie, and spent sort of the next three days just lying with her on a mattress, and then spent about the next six months trying desperately to adopt her because I was always a pro I've always been a problem solver in business.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I can solve problems, yes, I can do this thing myself.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a I always find solutions, right?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just thought, well, there's the answer.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: This baby needs a mama, I need a baby, and I love her, and so, but that was not to be.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: There was so much bureaucracy and red tape and you know, border kind of things going on.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: So then I was like, right, still determined, I am gonna get a sperm donor.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so then I embarked on a whole process, which trying to get a sperm donor means that you need to go to an IVF clinic, I need to, you know, do a whole lot of tests, have my eggs harvested, and then go shopping online for a baby daddy, um, which we go into, I go into a lot of detail in the book about how that works and the level.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it's extraordinary.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Your your what I I just need to highlight, your resilience and determination is just I do find quite awesome.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I will just say that.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry to inter, but yeah, it it's really hard what you're talking about.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think um, yeah, we can get into the whole mindset piece because I do often get asked why I kept going.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, so then I shopped online for a baby daddy, which is kind of interesting.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's probably like going on a dating app.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of information.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: You can look at them, you can choose, you know, based on eye colour and height and ethnicity and um, you know, what they do for a job and all sorts of other things.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I did that.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: So then I proceeded as a single woman to um, you know, do all the IBF protocols, injecting myself and taking lots of snappers and huffers and puffers and various things and doing two not fun, two um embryo implantations, which was my eggs and um baby daddy sperm, and neither of those ones took at all.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then not too long after that, I met my now partner Stephen, and um on our second date, he said, Oh, so anyway, do you want to have kids?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: Which was quite forward and actually probably quite fabulous that he was open enough to say that.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Well, as a matter of fact, I do.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: But then it's interesting, right?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because everyone's mindset is at different stages and they come at things at different points, and so he was like, Well, you know, when well we wanted to see if we were compatible and all that energy.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: So we probably waited another eight months, but it then felt quite weird.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry to get into the nitty-gritty, but then like going back and wearing condoms and doing all that again when I'm like desperately like, get that thing in me.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: I know, like I'm ready, baby, literally, but you know, also very wise to take you know steps to make sure that this is the one and full of that kind of thing.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so then he was determined to try naturally.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: So then, you know, I had to kind of back up the truck a bit and go, okay, let's try naturally.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it was only after a certain amount of time that, you know, we were like, well, this isn't quite working.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: So then we started different IVF protocols before we started the full, you know, IVF.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I won't get into all of the what that means.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's we've talked about a lot in the book, and it's all very technical and it's slightly different for everyone.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then he and I proceeded to do a further 14 rounds of IVF.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: Incredible that you do.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: As well as um, which our clinic poo-pooed, but as well as a lot of different natural therapies um simultaneously, from um, you know, herbal medicines to acupuncture to lots of different pills to uh you know, sending pools poo stools to America, and you name it, we tried it all in the name of you know incredible that your relationship, I mean, this is a lot for any relationship.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's been shaky, but you know, that would shake most, to be honest.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a lot of pressure.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and in his defense, and yes, it it has been difficult, certainly, on our relationship, but in his defense, he I did say several times in an emotional meltdown, like, you know, why don't you just go find someone younger who can give your baby?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: And he did stick with me and you know, go him, because that's that was a lot.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: And to be fair, he could have gone and you know pursued someone else, and it would have been much cheaper and faster and easier, but he didn't could have been, could have been could have been, and let's be honest, it wouldn't have been yours and his.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: So clearly his love for you was, you know, which is you know, for a male, it is a lot, you're right, to go through all of this stuff, but for a female, what you were going through, he could only obviously respect and see that this is what he really wanted.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a credit to both of you because the strain must have been absolutely enormous to be diligent with very intimate stuff, too.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're not talking, you know, going on a road trip here.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking about Yeah, it was a lot, and it certainly did take its toll emotionally, um, physically and financially.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: And before we throw it as there, I will just say, you know, I do feel like in a very fortunate position that we were able to afford it financially, because I know there's a lot of people out there that can't, and I absolutely met many of those people.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I do hope, well, Sarah, and I hope that you know, hopefully through writing the book and talking about it, um, perhaps the government and the powers that be will make you know IBF and you know, helping with subsidize it more and really help people because it shouldn't just be for people who can afford it.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: And with that came, you know, me working my butt off simultaneously to doing the IBF, to which some people would say, Well, of course you couldn't get pregnant, but it's like that chicken and egg.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I had to keep working.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good point.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, so anyway, enough about me.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually a good point, though, because I do think, yeah, you were under enormous strain trying to meet those financial requirements.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think, and we'll never know, will we?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: But certainly the pressures to work, conceive, do it all at once, anyway, irrespective of your yours, was quite an extreme journey.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I think generally there's no doubt, like I will say to certain people that can't get pregnant, why don't you just stop for a little bit, have a deep breath, and just give your body some time to recover?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: On that note, um, Sarah, you obviously conceived three kids, four.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, I don't know how you describe that, but yes, in a sense, four, right?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: But for you, you had no for you, it wasn't a problem getting pregnant, but what happened to you watching someone like Lisa struggle with something that you hadn't?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Your sense of empathy must have been quite extraordinary.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have three kids.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've been pregnant six times.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: I have three kids, and I've had Lisa's baby, and there were two miscarriages in there.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: So quite a lot going on there.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um a lot, yeah.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I had a really easy fertility journey.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was um, I was in my 20s.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I I was one of those lucky ones that met the person I wanted to be with young.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we got married when I was 26, and at 28, we were like, hey, we should have a baby, and then we were pregnant, and then we did.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just that straightforward, that storybook style is exactly how it happened.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then we wanted more kids and we had more kids, and it was just really straightforward.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it really, like, you know, it everything in life is luck of the draw.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes people have a really easy run in their career, and other people struggle their whole lives.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone has different experiences.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: But for fertility, for me, I just it seems really unfair to me that I can want a baby and get pregnant and it happens that quickly, and it's free.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then someone else can want a baby and can spend tens of thousands of dollars and so much pain and heartache and medical appointments, and it's just such a wildly different experience.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it had always interested me this idea of what could I do to help someone in that situation.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd always been thoughtful about what could happen as a surrogate, what the opportunity might be there to help someone.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when Lisa needed help with that, or or when she her fertility wasn't her her uh IVF wasn't working, sorry.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: And she was up to, I think by the time we, yeah, she she was up to 16 rounds by the time I stepped in.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you saw this close up because you were working with Lisa closely.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: So she's actually no, that's the really fascinating thing.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I want to hear.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I think is so powerful about our story.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: When people say, um, you know, I've had some people say to me, Oh, I could do that for a sister, but not a friend.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or some people say, Oh, you guys must be like sisters for you to do that for her.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa and I were really close, but we weren't, I wasn't in the trenches with her.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: She wasn't, she really kept this close to her chest for for lots of reasons that she discusses in the book.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: But it I wasn't aware, it wasn't like we were at that point of every month she was doing IVF and sharing the details with me, and my heart was breaking with her month by month.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we were close, but it was more just as a human being, I saw this other human being who wanted desperately to be a mum.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I was in a position to help.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the that's the real message that we would love to get through to people is it I I also, in the same vein, I donate blood as often as I can.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know who it's going to.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: I just know it's going to help someone.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on the organ registration list.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I I would if I would, I've looked at joining, I haven't been able to for health reasons, but I've looked at joining the um bone marrow transfer registry.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't, you know, people say, oh, I would do that if it was my mum or my sister or my family.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's someone's mum and it's someone's sister and it's someone's family.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And if we can do something to help someone else, like why wouldn't you?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of my philosophy.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't know the depths of what Lisa was up to.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, on the when we, and we go into the full detail of this into the book of how we actually became became surrogates, but when I actually reached out to Lisa, I hadn't, we hadn't spoken in probably like 12 months.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I half expected, because I knew by this stage that she was doing IVF, I didn't know how hard it had been for her, but I half expected her to reply, I'm actually pregnant, I haven't told anyone, or I'm expecting, or like I expected an update that that things were going well.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: And when it wasn't, I I was a little bit more heartbroken for her.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I did have a miscarriage, you know, along the way.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I had my three beautiful, healthy children.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Then I had an unexpected pregnancy, and you know, which is even more infuriating for people that suffer from infertility.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Here I was with my three planned children and then a bonus one.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't even trying and I got pregnant.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's so unfair.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: That pregnancy, unfortunately, we had a miscarriage at nine weeks.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And by then I was very attached to that child.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't planned, but I, you know, we had a due date and we had plans and hopes and dreams for that baby.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you so much.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was really painful, but I was able to cushion that pain in my kids, you know.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: I was devastated, but I was like, man, this is so hard for women who have to go through this and they don't have a happy family at the end of it.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's kind of how we ended up uh joining forces to bring Hugo into the world.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, what a wonderful human you are.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: And aren't we lucky there are people like you in the world who are so empathetic and sensitive to the needs of others, that is just a blessing because we we often say, yeah, no, it's really quite extraordinary.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I think one of the most standout things to me was how much trust was involved in this process.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because it, as we know, it's one thing to be close friend, close sister, close whatever.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: But to actually go and we having been pregnant myself a few times, it's not, you know, it I didn't have touch wood, I had good pregnancies, but it's it's still an effort and it does change your.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: day-to-day life, particularly the first three months if you're a little nauseous.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: I was.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, this is not just like, so it's it's an extraordinary amount of trust Lisa had to have in you and you had to have in Lisa.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: How did you navigate that?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: How did you, how did that, was there a a contract?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Was I mean obviously you had some that I'm interested how that trust arch worked for both of you.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well there's a legal framework.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's a legal framework, but that really doesn't I mean I think a contract's only as good as the two people that sign it, let's be honest.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like Lisa had to put more trust in me than me and her because from my perspective, I just my main thing was, you know, is she going to want the baby at the end?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well of course you know there was very little risk that we were going to give birth and they were going to say actually we've changed our mind.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I think Lisa you had to have a lot more trust than I did.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah Jeb, I would thank Say's Deb, I would say the biggest thing about it is communication and um and Sarah and I have reflected a lot, you know, since and kind of going oh my gosh imagine the amount of things that could have gone wrong.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean so it's actually a beautiful deep um intimate experience to go through together which we had to keep communicating and have you know boundaries and and have sometimes hard conversations although often not.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean so we I feel and I think we both do just extraordinarily lucky that we managed to navigate it because you're absolutely right Deb the amount of times that I felt guilty when Sarah was vomiting and I I didn't realize because I'd never got to the stage of actually being pregnant myself just how many appointments and how much paperwork and all the things that Sarah would have to do and give up in order to carry my baby.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so yeah we just had to have really open communication all the way through.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: And you know early on there were I was like well we lost the first baby on round 17 that's the idea we got pregnant which was the first time I'd ever heard you're pregnant.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: And we were so excited and sadly that little one was not meant to be and then I was like oh my gosh I went into this kind of whole panic because I'd been let down by so many people and systems and things throughout the eight years of trying I thought oh my gosh will say I actually want to go again maybe this is her opportunity to go no well that's a good escape clause I'm out of here but she didn't and no time you know during the pregnancy or in the 16 months since Hugo's now 16 months old have I ever ever ever once had any reason to doubt say like she's like my ride or die now she is just steadfast and there and you know I think I am just so incredibly fortunate and grateful.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you know our friendship has just deepened and deepened and deepened.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah I think for anyone who's even remotely thinking about this get a lot of therapy by yourself and together and really you know understand yourself and your triggers and your boundaries and what's okay and what's not okay because it is a it's a big journey to embark on.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: And in terms of therapy when you talk about that is that part is that an actual it's an obligation that you must do as part of obviously the infrastructure and the contract and the deal etc but did you do that outside of that I suppose obligatory therapy did you continue that or did you need that to sort the you know did you need some little mediating happening if something was no no definitely we didn't need any mediating but I think Sarah and I have always been big on therapy and self-growth and seeking so you know we've both embarked on our own therapy journeys.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: However I think we have both said since that it would have been probably useful.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of rigor up front it's like you know legal contracts and um Sarah and I and Stephen and David our partners had to you know meet individually with a therapist and then altogether as a boss whatever that is with the therapist.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think you know and then But that's it that's all we needed to do.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah that's that's it.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: I we I think we've both said since I mean we're very fortunate that you know we have done a lot of personal growth and there was a lot of things but I do think both of us think that for all the bureaucracy and red tape and craziness surrounding you know fertility and um surrogacy it would be useful to be mandatory to have some more therapy throughout as milestones um sort of a reach sort of signpost to help you along the road it would make sense wouldn't it like to have that just on that note your heart your your partners that's also a big ask of them how did each of your respective partners who hopefully got on well through the process but it's huge for you Sarah because not only you've got three kids and your own family to manage you're pregnant and which is always quite a thing um and then you've also got to navigate your own relationship and also your own emotions around carrying somebody's a child because you're obviously a very emotionally intelligent woman so that would mean you're not you know there's only so much arm's length you can be I would imagine tell me how did that how did that yeah such a great question and also him navigating his emotions because he had been on this you know he'd had this experience with me three times before when we're growing our own baby which was extraordinary and he never missed a scan or an appointment and you know we were on the same journey together.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so at the beginning he was like I don't know how I'll go when it's not my baby.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: I very much want to support you but I don't want to get too attached and he similar to me I knew from the beginning intellectually I knew I can do this.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: I knew I wouldn't get attached I knew that I was really um clear with myself that I wasn't having another baby I was I was babysitting.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I knew I wasn't going to get attached mentally but you also don't know what you're gonna do when you're fully in it.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: I was hoping that I would continue to feel that way and very very fortunately I did.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: But back to Lisa's earlier point on therapy it is so lucky that I have been for a decade getting like seeing a therapist, seeing a psychologist, getting life coaching like I've done so much work.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: If I hadn't had that behind me, I think there would have been so many potential moments of stress or of tension because you have to work out a lot of this stuff on the fly your own emotions your own so much going on and you're thinking not just about yourself and not just about yourself and your partner and your kids but also this other couple and their needs and you know there's so many moving parts to it.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: So if if I was to meet someone today who say they're thinking of doing this, I honestly would probably recommend once a month counselling for everyone along the way just so that everyone has an opportunity to process all the changing things.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: From the really basic like procedural stuff like Lisa in the beginning didn't know what all the appointments were about and it was super fun going on that journey together.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: But it would have been you know like we would go to the obstetrician and have fortnightly appointments and she kind of didn't know why.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: And getting the heartbeat and all of that stuff was really beautiful and fun but I think it would have been great for Lisa to have a therapist there.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Again lucky Lisa, you've done so much work but imagine if you hadn't imagine if you were really struggling with the fact that someone else was carrying your baby and all these milestones were happening.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like thought thankfully Lisa had enough self-work to to process it all but I think there could have been so many moments of of just stress and heartache and tension along the way that could be helped with some therapy there to just help everyone process it.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah I think Sarah and I are pretty unique and you know very fortunate through this journey that it just gelled like pretty much the whole thing with us just gelled.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: And for me it was just like after so many years of heartache and the physicality and emotional and all of the you know everything that I'd been through this whole thing was just like this fun, amazing you know going through something with your best girlfriend and it was giddy and amazing.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: So but you know that's probably everything is in perspective right it's probably because of everything that I'd been through before I was just like oh my gosh these are just amazing and like Sarah said like it was beautiful because Sarah kind of guided me through so much because she'd been there three times before like I literally had no idea what I was doing through that whole period.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah for us it worked but I I think we both would say just yeah navigate it carefully because we've heard some some kind of horror stories about surrogacy where people weren't connected or you know let's not go there right now but I think but no but there are I think that's good that you flag that it is you know this is thank goodness has been a reasonably seamless but as you say there were lots of little things along the way that could have been problematic do you think there's enough support system in Australia in terms of the surrogate surrogacy space in terms of the way that you were supported do you feel like both of you were held effectively and just generally or do you think you just had to swim and find your own way?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: Let me give you the top level of that I think um Australia annually there are only about 120 surrogacy births at the moment there is a lot of bureaucracy and red tape and also we're pushed down the chain a lot because it's not such a regular occurrence.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: I definitely think having been through the system of you know IBF and various other things in in the you know trying to get pregnant and then surrogacy there definitely needs to be a lot more support and rigour and empathy and humanizing and just a few little examples throughout um would be the recognition of like even though we've had private health care Stephen and I for many many years we weren't and I was obviously had private health care for trying to have a baby because I've been trying to have one forever at the hospital we weren't recognized so we had to pay like full fee because we weren't recognized as being that and then it 13 months so Hugo was over one year old um and we would say and I and Stephen had to go to the Supreme Court via Zoom and I was asked by a judge from another century who was really judging me had I tried really had I tried hard enough to have a baby on my own to kind of before he would you know grant the parentage order to Stephen and I.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that kind of thing was like hang on a minute we've actually had Hugo for 13 months like what if this man suddenly deems that I'm actually not appropriate and no I didn't try hard enough.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's extraordinary and 16 months later we still don't have because there's so much legal stuff and so many signatures and JPs and everything we still don't have Hugo's birth certificate with Stephen and I listed on it.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: David and Sarah are still on his birth certificate and we still don't have a Medicare card for him.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: So that becomes problematic just in terms of registering registering him for daycare it's like nothing is simple.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: They're like oh but hang on you're not his parents what what so there's like all these clunky things or we took him to get his vaccinations and they're like what do you mean your child doesn't have a Medicare card?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: So you're constantly on the back foot and constantly have to having to justify our existence and almost constantly having to you know prove that we're his parents um so yeah I think there's definitely there's two sides.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of red tape is important to make sure that you know it's not this crazy Wild West out there and everyone's still just you know sharing around there I mean there's something on Netflix at the moment where some guy's shared his sperm a thousand times or thing and has a thousand kids on the planet.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: I can't remember what it's called.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: So then some kind of regulation.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: But on the flip side you know let's bring it into the 20th century a little bit.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: I find that quite incredible Lisa and and I'm sorry that you're going through that and that is you know the legal system can be very anachronistic and it can be um and clearly that's a very good example because it's pretty evident on many fronts that you know you're the parents but it I find that quite extraordinary.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what the template is in other countries who seem to be a little more progressive.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Have you are there examples of other countries that have I suppose streamlined that process like America is it less challenging or it we it it just seems to me insane.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: America is a different colorfish because in Australia it's altruistic meaning you can't pay a surrogate but in America it is very much a pay-to-play situation where you can pay upwards of 25000 to kind of half a million dollars to have a surrogate the surrogate gets maybe$40,000 of that and the rest of it goes to the powers that be some of which I go into in the book.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: However we tried to go down the route in America and had a hideous um hideous hideous hideous experience.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: However I have heard contrary to that on many occasions where people have had amazing experiences in the US and I think it's a very different you know it's very kind of regular this exactly how it happens so you know but it's you pay a lot a lot of money for that.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I think there are lots of different ways that you can engage surrogates around the world in multiple different countries and um I'm not a lawyer and I know everything varies so I would urge people to you know explore different options but certainly for me having been through what I'd been through in the previous um eight years even though we're still you know going through some paperwork issues it was by far the most extraordinary and amazing thing that I have ever done in my life actually probably but that's largely because of the angel that is Sarah.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well I have to say the gift is extraordinary Sarah and you have really shown an incredible not only empathy but an ability to when the baby was born talk me through how when Hugo was actually delivered how did that go in the room like how did that go in the room in effect?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very very busy room a lot of people in there I was gonna say I I mean my visual I'm just trying to think you know yeah there was uh me and my husband David uh Lisa and Stephen the the obstetrician and about three midwives so it was quite busy in there.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh yeah I'm really really fortunate that I I have uh quite fast labours so my the birth with Hugo from beginning to end was three and a half hours three three hours 40 minutes so that's incredible it was pretty fast which was great um and I just felt a lot of relief when he came out it was like my job is done he's here he he came out with this beautiful head of hair and he was squealing and it was like excellent great now the next part of the journey can kind of begin.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: But the overwhelming feeling for me was relief and joy there was no part of me which surprises a lot of people but there's just no part of me that felt maternal I felt absolutely overjoyed for Lisa and Stephen but I wasn't feeling like oh there goes my baby it was there goes their baby it it was just a really clear boundary from the beginning.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing and Lisa what about you?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: How did you feel well I mean there are no words to describe really um so I delivered Hugo myself so my hands were the first hands to ever go onto Hugo which was amazing and um yeah just I mean gosh the wild and I describe it in great detail in the book but I mean after waiting for so long we got the phone call just after midnight um on the Friday night or the Saturday morning early and it was Sarah's husband David he's a radio guy and then his radio voice was like this is the call you're which was just like wild you know and then so we all just packed as quickly as we could and jumped in the car and you know there we were in the hospital and then the our obstetrician had said he was amazing Dr.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: Drew Moffrey he's had a few surrogate births and he was like bring your swimmers and because if Sara's getting in the shower you're getting in the shower and so we very much have enjoyed quite literally at the hip for the whole time and so all of that kind of happened um Sarah is the most relaxed person I could ever imagine you know having never been in a birthing suite before but hearing how people scream and clench and say every profanity Sarah's level of pain even though it may be high it it sounds something like this oh ow ow so she's very calm and amazing is amazing and she's never had an epidural and she was like but hang on wait for this punchline she but she was like oh she wasn't going to have one and then she was like maybe I'll have one on this maybe I'll do it and then so we did the epidural but because then the label was so quick uh it didn't kick in until long after Hugo was delivering oh my goodness after Hugo came out he came onto my chest um Steven and I were on a sofa bed opposite Sara and kind of lying there with Hugo on us and every now and again I would hear um can you come and put my leg back on the bed because Sarah had lost complete control of her leg which kept just one leg.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: Incredible such an intimate incredibly intimate moment together but also with your partners but also just I mean the most beautiful human experience imaginable you know like the um yeah the vulnerability and the intimacy and the joy in that room you know and when I mean I couldn't wait to take Hugo over even though Steven's kind of you know I guess he was big in the picture but like Sarah and I have been on such a journey together.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: So when I carried Hugo over to Sarah and you know we cuddled him together like that was just you know tears and tears and tears of joy that we had together you know brought this little boy into the world.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: It just is a beautiful the imagery is amazing but also there's something maybe it's the authenticity and going back to really where we all started it's a bit you've I don't know if you've ever read The Red Tent, but it's about the female feet yeah it's a great book if you ever want to read and it's about that female experience and there's you know that it's it's a shared journey you know takes a village to raise a child that sort of theme in a way very primal.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah very primal that's exactly and that that sort of the imagery that you're talking about is really quite primal but takes us back to maybe where we've got quite removed from like in a sense that is a very human as you say and vulnerable place and that's really what it should be but maybe with all the technology we've lost sight of that and everyone's so overly prepared right like overly right I mean it was and you can prepare as much as you want that we've talked about a lot that our I think one of the best on the planet he didn't quite believe that Sarah he's like no no you've still got a way to go and so much so he went outside to eat cheese and biscuits and Sarah's like my baby's coming so he ran back in.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean it was all just so extraordinary and so perfect.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: And you know the funny thing is in that moment none of us even thought about technology or taking photos or anything but someone fortunately one of the uh nurses had grabbed one of our phones and so they did capture it but we didn't even think about that we were just there and in the moment and we all stayed in that room for probably three hours I think and then uh Sarah and I had rooms next to each other for the next four days but I remember maybe the birthing suite even though we were like right next to each other and spent the next four days like pretty much in each other's beds it was like no we're leaving this little bubble your point about it being so primal is so true.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you know Lisa was saying I don't make a lot of noise in labor but like as we were doing our what do you call it the rounds of the the the inspection I can't think of the word for it.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know when you go and check the ward before you give birth so you're looking at where you're gonna be that that hospital tour.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: When we were doing that Lisa was like in almost an event planning mode she's like oh my gosh so the the the decor's pretty drab like we put some candles or what should we do for music and da da da or just like go off do what you like but I said just don't just don't get in my way kind of thing.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: I said it in a really nice way I hope um I'm usually pretty direct but I was like you know that Fine, but I won't notice a single bit of music, candles, decor, any of it.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like I know myself when I go into labor, I almost leave the space.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm not that I'm not there anymore.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: I am just trying to counsel myself through breathing and I'm getting through each contraction.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember after I had my first child, afterwards, my husband was like, How do you feel?
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, literally, a bet, like you two, the band, could have walked in here and I wouldn't have noticed.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: I just was on such a different planet.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was just trying to focus on breathing and getting through it.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's that real primal thing that you're talking about of just that deeply human, primal experience of what it was like for all of us to just be in that room and for him to arrive.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: The emotions were on higher than anything you could imagine.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: We were all just overjoyed and ecstatic.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and my kids came to visit pretty soon afterwards too, which was pretty amazing.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Incredible.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely incredible.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually on that note, I think, you know, you describe it really beautifully.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, I I often remember thinking, this is even if you're not religious, this is as close to God as you feel.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: If that, even if you're not a religious person, there is something overarching about the spirituality or the universality or the something so much bigger than us.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: And sort of, it's so fundamental to us as humans to do this.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact that Lisa, while you couldn't give birth, you could be there on the journey in that intimate space, almost holding hands and getting it by osmosis, that sort of extraordinary birth experience.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a credit to Sarah, but also a credit to you.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Debbie.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and like Sarah says, I mean, we are both quite spiritual, and I think it has been a very unique journey, and possibly because of what we've the work we've done and the friendship we've shared and things beforehand.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: A little bit like Sarah saying she didn't feel like you know she was gonna deliver the baby and it was gonna be hers or she did have any feelings.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: At no point throughout the entire journey did I not feel pregnant, like it's it's hard to almost explain.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I always felt also pregnant and so connected to the pregnancy, like every single bit of it.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it was always gonna be that.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it's actually funny, the amount of people who've asked us, oh, where will Lisa be when the baby's being born?
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: And we're like, um in the room.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I don't have one single, not even a zillionth of a percent, regret about not carrying my own baby or not delivering my like having my own baby, like it was just the most perfect way to bring Hugo into the world.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: I cannot even express that enough.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: A true miracle.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so for you, the book is a reflection of really you you your journey thus far, and obviously touching on all the complexities around as you talked about the surrogacy challenges, shall we say, for uh in our community.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: But what about do you feel that there is change, that there is going to be, it's going to be easier moving forward for other people to do this?
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: And do you have any, you know, I suppose, interest in driving that change?
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it something because you've you're like, bye, I'm doing this.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: But but I'll just say and then say I can give her two bumps.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think whilst the whilst there is absolutely a fertility and surrogacy thread throughout the whole book, so it is very relevant to anyone who is, you know, struggling with fertility because we go into a lot of you know detail and you know ideas and different ways to do that, and also surrogacy.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that's very relevant for those people, but we really wanted to write it so that it has a much, much broader appeal.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's really for anyone who wants to, you know, who has any challenges or setbacks or is facing any adversity because it really is a story about resilience and friendship and power of community and possibility and you know, tenacity and all of those things.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I think and we hope that the book really has a much broader reach.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we read lots of stories where there's a throughfair of whatever it is in the world, but the story itself is more interesting than the actual, you know, topic.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: In terms of um wanting to be a driving change, I just, you know, it's like Sarah and I talk a little bit, both of our fathers died within three months of each other to the day.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about that in the book as well.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: And both of us, unbeknownst to us, had both thought, oh, do we write a book about you know the annoyance of the whole, you know, like what happens after someone dies, and how do you navigate that?
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think we both independently went, no, because there's only so much we can take on.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, I'm an advocate, and as is Sarah, we do a lot of charity work, we're doing lots of different things.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this book, certainly for me, this is and us talking about it and you know, being on public.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Putting it on the slate, yeah.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like that is the the change.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: I just I feel like I've done eight years of you know, I understand that we can, but I don't want to be at the front line of driving the change for this in Australia.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: I I want to get on with my life and being a Mama Bear now and supporting, of course, wherever I can, however I can, but I don't want that to be my life's work.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: I also think that's a really good point.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: The book, in a sense, is broader, but it is a great roadmap for people who are facing this particular challenge.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, as you said, there are many challenges one can face.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: This is a doozy, and you climbed a very big mountain as I started, you know, this podcast talking about.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I I find it really quite you're both so impressive.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: Your friendship is is really so beautiful.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: And what are you going to tell Hugo and when about his how he came into the world?
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Hugo knows everything from day one.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like I there's nothing off limits for him.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, we were very acutely aware of that when we were writing the book.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: Is this something that is a legacy for Hugo?
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: Are we doing the right thing by Hugo?
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, we see Sarah all the time, and I was I'm like, there's the tummy you came out of, there's Auntie Sarah.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Sarah coined the phrase chosen family, and they are very much that like every part of it.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: Love that from day one, always we talk about it.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like mommy's tummy wasn't working, like it's just that's just I love that.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: I love the way that you've the chosen family and your kids said how they with Hugo, they must, it's like a brother or a cousin, or at a little bit.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like a cousin.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, and and we again we were really lucky, I think the timing of everything works out because my kids were older, uh, and they were old enough to understand I could explain really clearly to them that they weren't getting a sibling.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you had maybe a three-year-old, yes, they might get confused.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: Mummy has a big tummy and mummy's had a baby, and hold on, where's the baby?
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: My kids were all in school, their school age, and I was able to explain what we were doing, which I think was really important too.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't just uh we have really open conversations with our kids.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I wasn't just saying, Oh, I'm I'm having a baby for my friend.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like she was there for everything.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: So we just made sure they were really involved in any questions they had, we were answering them.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: They would ask, they would ask questions like, my um, my middle daughter had the most questions, and she would say, like, what who is he to us?
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, he's not blood related to us, but is he family?
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: And we would have all these big conversations about chosen family.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: I definitely grew up with aunties and uncles who were not related to me.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's what that's what this vibe is.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: So we're just, you know, the and again, coming back to the book and the purpose of the book, it's about surrogacy and all the possibility there.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also hopefully um it's kind of the the purpose of it was to hope, to help people see that there's possibility and hope in so many situations.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you might not have the family that you want, but there is a chosen family out there for you.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: Your life might not have taken the exact path that you thought it would, but there's lessons and growth in all of those moments.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we share a lot of really vulnerable and and difficult times in the book to try and help people see that on the other side of that can be some really expansive and amazing parts of life.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, both of you are extraordinary women, and I'm so happy that you've joined me on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for your time for writing this beautiful book and for bringing Hugo into the world because I really think it is a beautiful, beautiful gift.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope moving forward that you both get to just enjoy your kids.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I look forward to seeing Hugo growing up, maybe on Insta.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: A little bit, yeah, I've seen a little bit on Insta.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know how you got on, Lisa.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so thank you girls for joining me on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: And the book is available online and in all good bookstores, uh, The Power of Two, and look forward to seeing you soon, Lisa, hopefully, and hopefully meeting Sarah.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Dev.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: Love Dev.