Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 319 - Operational In Dealey Plaza

Transcript

JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 319 - Operational In Dealey Plaza · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: I don't know what he's up to. It's picking me
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: like chickens, shutting.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Me like corns, throwing me like an ice drummy.
• 0:13
  Speaker 3: And he ain't putting nothing down By there.
• 0:24
  Speaker 4: In the heart of Dallas, for ridgings unfolds, a tale, shadows, mysteries.
• 0:30
  Speaker 5: And told, but truth is obscured.
• 0:33
  Speaker 4: In the depths of the night, the lone gun and
• 0:35
  Speaker 4: Podcast sheds.
• 0:36
  Speaker 5: A flickering light, all the grasping no whispers, his eye,
• 0:55
  Speaker 5: a shot in the dark, word secrets, glide, aw will shout, looms, a.
• 1:01
  Speaker 6: Finger, soul grim in Dali plus on where the lights grow.
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: Them unravel the first.
• 1:07
  Speaker 6: Conspiracy weeds, the Lone Gun's truth were none. Shackrob stand histories,
• 1:22
  Speaker 6: hand echoes of gun fire across the land, the echoes
• 1:27
  Speaker 6: of kascination in Greece, the lone Gunman's.
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: Quest for belief, the echoes of shocks, and the memory
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: stain a niss morning forever in pain.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: The lone Gun seats was buried in.
• 1:50
  Speaker 6: Dust in the aftermath of a nation unjust.
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: It's not just a story, but a deep courscar. The
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: Lone Gun's journey. Need to see from the fire, shagrobies,
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: serious hand, the echoes of gunfire across the land, the.
• 2:15
  Speaker 6: Echoes of Kenny alcination in Greece, the lone Gunman's questible belief.
• 2:36
  Speaker 6: It's not just a story about a deeply card scar
• 2:39
  Speaker 6: the lone Gunman's journey.
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: You to see from the far shagrobies don his hands,
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: the echoes of gunfire across the land, the echoes.
• 2:57
  Speaker 6: Of kenyascination in greed, long done, less believe, long done,
• 3:05
  Speaker 6: less classible believe.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: And here we go. That's right, here we go, people,
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: what's up? It's episode number three hundred and nineteen. We're
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: still getting used to this, and I still don't have
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: all the music rights, so bear with us. But figured
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: it'd be a nice little long intro. Let people get
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: in here and get ready for the show. Joe, Yeah,
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: me included. Yeah. So how was your Thanksgiving? Sir?
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: It was great? It was great. I went over to
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: the my dad's house and he had a bunch of
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: people there. I brought ruby and we had some a
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: nice Italian Thanksgiving meal. And I'm gonna share my screen
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: right now and show I took a couple of pictures
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: of the food. Here the Italian BURRELLI Thanksgiving all right?
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: Frew the Italians. It has like spaghetti and lasagna for Thanksgiving. No,
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: I see pasta and meatballs.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's the first course. So on the left
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: you have the you know, the kind of the start here.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: You got some hot long hot peppers on the top,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: you got some brijute, some Italian bread, some shrimp, some mozzarella, basil, tomatoes,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: and you know, you kind of make a sandwich there,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: put pepper on, put some berjute, put some cheese and
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: just go to town. The first course after that second
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: course whatever I guess technically first is meatballs, sausage and pasta.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: My dad makes his own sauce, and then then the
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: burd as they say in the Sopranos. And I don't
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: actually have a picture of that because he did it outside,
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: but you know, we have the stuffing, the sweet potatoes,
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: mashed potatoes, string beans with ruby looking on very intently.
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: But it was it was good. So that's round one.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: That that was, uh yeah, kind of like orders round
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: one and then the turkey round two and then dessert
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: and coffee and all that. So Italians like to do
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: a lot of rounds. Yeah, yeah, how was yours, sir?
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: Very well? Man very well, had a great time, ate
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: a lot, way too much, as per the usual, you know,
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: and Thanksgiving Christmas you want to eat too much and
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: sit around like a bump on the couch afterwards and
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: maybe doze off. And you know the turkey has that
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: mell toning or whatever it has in there.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you're done.
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, just stick a fork in me. I love turkey.
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: It's retally the only time I eat it though, during
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: the holidays. But too much of a pain. They asked
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: to make it any other time. I guess if you
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: want fresh turkey. But let's welcome in some of our
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: folks here, Joe, into the into the show. We've got
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: Claude and Aunt you Dene up in the house, cruising
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: around in the Green Lake Green Nash station wagon, Moose Heaven, Ashley.
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: What's up, John, Thank you for the super chat as usual.
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: We appreciate it very very much. Thank you preach it
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: like Reverend Billy ray Hargas Midnight Ride sermon with Guy
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: Banister and General Walker. Absolutely, we are going to be
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: preaching it tonight. That's for damn sure.
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: Tree Port tray is in the house. What's up? Yeah,
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: thanks respect it. They're eating out of a out of
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: a can apparently can turkey. Big MIC's in the house.
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: What's up? Alpha sixty six? Paul Cummings is in the house.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: Hey Paul, I met Paul Texas, didn't you.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: I did, And he bought me a pizza and a
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: drink at Campeses and I get my a shout out
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: at on the members only. I don't know if he
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: heard that. Probably not. I don't think he's a member,
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: but thank you, Paul. He told us he couldn't figure
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: out super chats, so he wanted to buy buy my dinner,
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: which was very nice of him, of course, So I
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: now owe you half a dinner.
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: That's okay, we'll make We'll make Paul do uber eats
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: for a big bad Bob.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: Hi, Paul, nice to see you, see you.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: No Evil is in the house. Bungle is in the house.
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: What's up? Bungledthday girl, her elf? Colleen the Rocket Queen
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: is in the house.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: Happy birthday, Happy birthday Colleen.
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: Not today but she had recently. Yes, happy birthday, Colleen belated. Yes,
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: let's see. Jack is in the house. What's up? Jack?
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: Of course Tiny Dancer is here. Wouldn't be a it
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: wouldn't be a show without TD in the house. Howdy howdy,
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: Deep State James is in the house. Aar or not?
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: I like that song? I know it's it's crazy. How
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: good that song is. Audio is good? Thank you, Trey.
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: Tim is in the house. What's up, Tim? Okay, let's
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: see anybody knew? I think that's just about everybody so far. Yes,
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: the twenty third November, the twenty third was Colleen's birthday.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: So yeah, everybody, Happy twenty third birthday, Colleen.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: Yes, happy twenty third birthday, Colleen.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: And just so people, I know, we mentioned this on
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: our members only chat on Wednesday.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: Rob, but we had you want to hear more about it,
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: become a member and go back and watch the show.
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: But Joe was going to give you a little, a
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: little snapshot for the folks that aren't members on his
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: little conference experience.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very quickly, I won't. Yeah, but I was first
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: going to say we have switched streaming platforms, because only
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: a couple of people heard of that, from stream Yard
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: to restream, and Streamyard had up their annual price to
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: over five hundred dollars. And as some of you well know,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: we were dealing with some audio issues. Whether that was
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: their fault or my fault, we don't know. But so
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: we decided to go with restream and this is our
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: first time doing a live here. As you can see,
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: the chat have an option where the chat comes up
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: on the right hand side of the screen.
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: Here and easier for us to see at times. Yeah.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're still it's pretty similar. We're still trying
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: to figure out exactly how I could share things without
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Rob's permission, So please bear with us if there are any.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: Or show up into the studio in general.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so definitely let us know your feedback if
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: you positive, negative, whatever, because you know, we're always trying
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: our best to bring you the best quality of the
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: long gunment. So we spent a lot of time Rob
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: did going through all the options we had. We decided
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: this still cost a few hundred dollars.
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: So still half the cost of stream Yard. So yeah,
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: and so far it's been great. We haven't had any
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: audio issues on either end, yeah, son would yeah, and.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: If anyone was wondering where your super chat money goes too,
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: it's things like this, So we appreciate everyone that is
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: in the position to contribute. So all right, So that's that.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: Last week, Rob, we had had our cohort co partner
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: Doug on for a Lancer preview on Friday night on
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: the twenty second, and we actually missed it.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: Rob.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: It was our one year anniversary of you.
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: And me, yes of us doing the show live here
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: on YouTube. It's already been a year. What a quick
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: year and what a great year. We've almost doubled our
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: subscribers in a year, which is phenomenal. Thanks to you
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: guys for helping out, watching the show, liking the show,
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: show sharing the show. We really appreciate all your help
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: and we couldn't do it without you guys. And you
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: know they say, if you built, they will come eventually,
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: and that's that's what I told Joe. I said, you know,
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: it's just it's gonna be a slow burn or something new.
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: And you know, here we are a year later, just
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: rocking and rolling through it and it's only going to
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: get better. So thank you again to all you loyal folks.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: Like I said, we couldn't do without you, and we
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: appreciate each and every one of you for sure.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you so much. And so we had recapped
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: the conference up to Friday. Of course Saturday B S
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: D B as D's Joe and Dougre that's big swinging,
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: you know where I just I just go for the
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: eye roll. And of course you know I'm sarcastic in that.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: We presented before Bill Simpitch and after a Gale Nicks
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: Jackson on Saturday, and it went really well. And I'm
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: just going to show you a quick picture of that.
• 12:58
  Speaker 7: Let me know.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: It came up. Did it come up?
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: Yes, I can, I have it up.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: So that is me and Doug looking very snazzy there.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: And we had a great uh presentation about an hour.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: We had great feedback and you know, Rob went when
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: Bill Simpitch, who was there, says, I really enjoyed your presentation,
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: and Larry Hancock, who was moderating the Facebook presentation, said fascinating,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: great work. It doesn't get better than that.
• 13:42
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: You can no higher praise, especially in this type of
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: subject that we were talking about, than to have them
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: give their compliments to our presentation. So thank you again
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: to Doug of course, who who wrote a lot of
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: the copy for it, and most of it actually And
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: we had a journey and it was very we found
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: out some great things and what we might go into
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: more of the details of our presentation at a later date.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: But then we had the banquet on Saturday night that
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: was fun, much better food they had like a buffet
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: and chicken and steak and macaroni and cheese and salad,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: like a ton of things. It was great, definitely better
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: than last year of the food. And then Sunday we
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: kicked it off early with Daniel Sheehan, the professor, who
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: had an interesting presentation that might be covered on future
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Quick Hits.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: When you, let's just say, when you bungle very simple facts,
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: they might earn you a spot on Quick Hits.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, what's the introduction if we call you
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: if you if you give some bullshit and we call
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: you out on it, don't get mad, get better something
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm paraphrasing, but that, but
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: still pretty cool. Then we had a nice listener lunch
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: actually with Trey, with Paula, with Scott Edwards, Doug and
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: myself at the Hotel Bar restaurant, and then I went
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: to go see the end of Fred Litwins presentation which
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: is on the GIL.
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: And I had a couple of and we're not going
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: to ruin it here, but if you want to go
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: back and watch the members only stream. Joe had a
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: very nice conversation with Fred Litwin that I thought was, h.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's he's a good he's a he's a good guy.
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: He's a good guy.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: But it was nice meeting Fred and Steve Rowe also,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: who I know has been on here before.
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Then I saw Alex Harris and I had to leave
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: unfortunately for a flight before seeing Boylin and Hancock's presentation.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: I think it was at three pm dollars time, but
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: I was able to catch it on the replay. And
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: but overall Lancer was fantastic. It was great to meet
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: some of our most loyal listeners. Of course, great to
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: present in person with with Doug and meet Bill Simpitch
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: and a bunch of other people in the JFK community.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: We went into detail on that in the members only
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Well we'll say we'll leave it at that.
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: But uh and we won a major award, Oh, yes,
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: major award, Major award Research award.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: This award is called a BSD Award.
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: And this was initially BSDs.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Yes, and this was awarded to Rob and myself for
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: our presentation last year twenty three Lancer for work done
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: on the pain post assassination surveillance work. Now BLUs their hearts.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: We did not, of course do any pain assassination surveillance work,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: but I can understand where they might have gotten confused.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Of course, our big fines were regarding James Herbert Martin,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: who not kind of close to Marina in terms of
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: a babysitter, and that is definitely what they meant by that.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: But it's very nice for Kenneth and Gabby who presented
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: the award, to acknowledge acknowledge, yeah, some of our findes
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: from last year, and we had no idea. I had
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: no idea. I'm sitting there, like eating, having a drink,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: and and I see Rob Clark and Joe Barelli up there.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: I'm like, huh, and thank you Trey who captured the
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: picture of me going up there and getting it.
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: But yeah, Colleen, uh he is on some things.
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: But I.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: Don't know what he was thinking in Dallas this year.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, Colleen, uh so his he's definitely a
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: knowledgeable guy, and he you know, was involved personally in
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: some aspects of Watergate and then the Iran contra thing
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: after and probably the first half of his presentation was perfect,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: but then he went off on a tangent and saying
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: it was this global cabal and Dulles and Brown whatever, Harriman,
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: and it just kind of went off the rails there
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: at the end. It was like everyone was in collusion.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: And you know, it was Cuba information was wrong and.
• 19:09
  Speaker 8: It's yeah, it was a lot. Yeah, he kind of
• 19:14
  Speaker 8: went off the rails. I think it's the best way
• 19:16
  Speaker 8: to say it. But I mean, we did not give
• 19:20
  Speaker 8: a speech, Sally. We did not, although I probably should have.
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: I probably should have shook a hand and got the
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: hell off days Yeah, as you should.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so yeah, that pretty much wraps that up.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: I don't want to take too much time. We went
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: to more detail and the members only, but great weekend
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: as always, and just love connecting and networking and hopefully,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: you know, I meant a few people that hopefully Rob
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: could be guests on the Lone Gunmen and some that
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: committed to it when when I talked to them, so
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: I'll be a surprise.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: They just didn't show up last Friday night.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: That's okay, don't get me started on that.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: Anyway, folks. All right, let's get into this show.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Let's do it.
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: Operational and Daily Plaza. These are going to be some
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: of the folks that we have reason to believe through
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: either testimony, documentation, supposition, or reason to actually be boots
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: on the ground in Dally Plaza on eleven, twenty two
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: sixty three. And this is carrying out the execution and
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: murder of John F. Kennedy in broad daylight whilst in
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: the motorcade. And people always ask us, well, who did it?
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: Who was behind it? You know, there these are very
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: different questions. It also, when you're talking about a conspiracy,
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: is a very different question of a cover up. Who
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: was behind who orchestrated to cover up. Just because somebody
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: orchestrated to cover up doesn't mean that they were involved
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: in the conspiracy of the murder. It just means that
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: they had things to cover up. Because if you start
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: digging too deeply into certain people that are attached to
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: this thing, it could lead back to them, you know, unwantingly,
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: if you will. Now, I don't believe any of these
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: folks in Daily Plaza were quote unquote card carrying agents
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: of the CIA, like they're on the payroll. You know,
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: it's not what we're saying. At some point they could
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: have possibly been contracted by the CIA to do certain things,
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: which doesn't make them an official CIA agent. These are
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: called assets, These are called cutouts. These are called people
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: that you can keep it in arm's length. You pay
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: them to do your dirty work for you while you
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: sit back and not have to worry about the repercussions
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: of what's happening. And these things can either be done
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: through money and payouts, big money and payouts, or people
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: can be orchestrated to maneuvering through clever use of ideology.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: And what I mean that and what I mean by
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: that is something that you believe very strongly in. Now,
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: maybe these guys on their own felt this way about Kennedy,
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: and maybe they would have never done anything at all
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: had they not been co opted or pushed in a
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: certain direction, or led down certain paths, or had ideas
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: planted in their head right by certain individuals. Thank you,
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: Perpetual Concepts. Much appreciated, much appreciated, Happy black Bag Friday
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: Cohorts and Colleen coming through. Thank you Colleen for the
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: supersticker fan character dressed as a cheerleader jumping in the air. Well,
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: there you go, and there's Colleen jumping up in her
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: cheerleader outfit and blessing your boys, thank you, Colleen. Yes, yes,
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: bungled manipulators if you will. Now we're gonna be talking
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: about and focusing on two very particular individuals here today.
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: This is why this is a part one. They's gonna
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: be at least two parts, maybe three to this whole thing.
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: It depends on how it all plays out. But Joe
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: is gonna be talking about somebody you're very familiar with
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: if you listen to the Dallas Action quick Hits and
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: this show, and that is Felipe Vidallas Santiago. And then
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: I will be talking about Lawrence Howard later in this show.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: But just to give you folks an idea of the
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: kinds of things that were going on back then, I
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: wanted to play a short clip of an interview with
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: Lauren Hall. Okay, and this should give you an idea
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: of the kind of shenanigans. And we've heard this before too,
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: from from Jerry Hemming as well. And let's see what
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: Lauren Hall has to say here. Joe, so long.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Before the killing of President Kennedy in Dallas, you have
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: been arrested in Dallas or interrogated.
• 25:13
  Speaker 9: Yes, I had hauled a load of arms in a
• 25:17
  Speaker 9: trailer from Los Angeles en route to Miami, Florida, or
• 25:21
  Speaker 9: en route to the Keys, so we could make our
• 25:23
  Speaker 9: raids into Cuba.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: And we stopped off in.
• 25:25
  Speaker 9: Dallas and deposited these arms in a home in the
• 25:29
  Speaker 9: Dallas area, and that.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Was mister Log's home.
• 25:33
  Speaker 9: I'll say that I deposited the arms in a home
• 25:38
  Speaker 9: in the Dallas area.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: You were actually imprisoned, yes? For how long I was
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: in jail?
• 25:45
  Speaker 9: I think it was for two days.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: How did you get out?
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Mister low bailed me out for five thousand dollars.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: Now why would he do that?
• 25:52
  Speaker 9: Well, number one, he had some things of mine out
• 25:55
  Speaker 9: of his house.
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: Oh yes, and.
• 25:59
  Speaker 9: He was a friend of mine and he wanted me
• 26:02
  Speaker 9: out of the area.
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: Are you still in contact with mister Loan?
• 26:05
  Speaker 6: No, I'm not.
• 26:06
  Speaker 9: Why would that not be, because I'm not in contact
• 26:09
  Speaker 9: with anybody from Texas.
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: You gift the impression that you wouldn't like to go
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: to Texas at this point.
• 26:18
  Speaker 9: Well, if I wanted to commit suicide, I would probably
• 26:20
  Speaker 9: go to Dallas, Texas.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: Can you tell us about your meeting in mister Lowke's
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: office in Dallas, about soliciting funds for Cuba.
• 26:29
  Speaker 9: Pardon me, yes, I was in the office. There was
• 26:32
  Speaker 9: five other gentlemen along with mister Logan myself. It was
• 26:35
  Speaker 9: in the office, and we were talking about donating a
• 26:38
  Speaker 9: two thousand dollars apiece towards a twenty thousand dollars fund
• 26:42
  Speaker 9: so that we could form a government in exile, a
• 26:44
  Speaker 9: Cuban government in exile, and for pulling raids in Cuba.
• 26:49
  Speaker 9: And one of the gentlemen that was there, that was
• 26:50
  Speaker 9: in the trucking business, stated that rather than donate two
• 26:53
  Speaker 9: thousand dollars for the raids into Cuba and for forming
• 26:56
  Speaker 9: a government in exile, he would rather donate to a
• 26:59
  Speaker 9: fifty thousand dollars fun and have Candy said blowed off.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: Which is exactly what happened in Dallas. Okay, And trust
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: me when I tell you that Lauren Hall will be
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: one of the people that we will be talking about,
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: but not this week. Probably next week we'll get into
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: the hall a little bit, a little bit more deeper.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: But I wanted to play that for you so that
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: you could hear Lauren Hall in his own words, express
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: the feeling the sentiments going on in Dallas. Because these guys.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: You know, they're going around soliciting funds, if not you know,
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: personally with the soup can in a store. They're going
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: to these big high rollers in Dallas and other cities
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: and talking to these big rich, right wing fascist type
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: people who were willing to pay them to do something. Now,
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: whether that be like like like Hall was saying, for
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: to set up a government in exile for Cuba, or
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: to fund raids into Cuba by these anti Castro Cubans,
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: uh mercenaries and and the like. You know, Joey watched
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: that that that film of the Intercontinental Penetration Force a
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: couple of weeks ago, and they demonetized our show because
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: the damn musical and that thing. But uh, you know,
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: it showed you know, people like Lawrence Howard, Roy Hargraves,
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: William Seymour, Jerry Hemming dressed up in their fatigues and
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: going through these things and going through these exercises and
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: training and and and all of that and got interviewed
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: and all that. You know, these guys were, you know,
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: quite serious about this. You know when you look into
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: a lot of these people that we're going to be
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: talking about here, like Lauren Hall, like Lawrence Howard, like
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: Jerry Hemming. All these guys were married with kids. But
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: instead of holding down a job and living in the
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: American dream, they decided so deeply to get involved in
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: this situation. And by that I mean too you know,
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: solicit funds and guns and supplies and drugs and medicine
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: and these things that are needed. Uh, you know, when
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: you wanted to go on raids into Cuba with mercenaries
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: and anti Castro Cubans and drive hopping a trailer, leave
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: their families behind and hopping it hopping a car with
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: the trailer and drive all the way across the country, okay,
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: and stopping it along the way, you know, to solicit
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: fun and talk to people and you know, eventually make
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: your way from California to Florida and then actually go
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: on these raids or attempt to. Now, the first guy
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: that Joe's gonna be talking about.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: Was a former.
• 30:22
  Speaker 6: Was he?
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: I think he was the Air Force under Bautista. He
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: was a Navy, former Navy under under Batista. And he
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: was a serious operator. You know, he was the guy
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: that got into boats and went on these raids. Now,
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you can say the same thing
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: about Hall and Howard and Hemming. You know, it seems
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: like they did a whole lot of nothing, uh when
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: it came to uh actually going on raids. But Joe,
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: if you could just let's get into Felipe videos Santiago
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: first off here and before we do, I'm sure you
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: have a photo, but here is one of Felipe Vidio Santiago,
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: and he is talking on a giant ass walkie talkie,
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: much like he may have had stuffed in his back
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: under his jacket in Dealey Plaza. If this is in
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: fact a dark complexed man being Felipe video Santiago, who
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: a lot of people think that it was, there's definitely
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: something under his jacket. The question is what is it?
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: Jackets do not get misshapen like that. You know, you
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: can kind of make out something like in tucked in
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: the back of his pants, you know, with it, and
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: it looks what looks like an antenna extending up, which
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: could be pushing the corner of his jacket up. I
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: don't know for sure, but it's definitely suspect considering that
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: dark complexed man was never identified, never interviewed, never to
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: be seen or heard from again. Actually after eleven, twenty two,
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: sixty three, and he was actually very close to the
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: limousine at the time of the shots. He was actually
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: he had actually stepped off the curve. He was standing
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: in the street with his hand raised in a fist
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: like manner at the time Kennedy had his head blown off.
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: So this is a very suspected person. And the reason
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: I show you these pictures is because so you can
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: see that these guys had no qualms okay about carrying weapons.
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: And when you're people like this and you're carrying weapons,
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: you're not afraid to use them. And most of the
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: people that we're going to be talking about here today
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: are those type of people that you're going to see
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: with weaponry. You're going to see, you know, doing these
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: gorilla type movements. And the reason I'm laying the groundwork
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: for this is so you can try to follow our
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: path of thinking. And once Joe tells you about Felipe
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: Video Santiago, you'll understand why he is a prime suspect
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: because we can actually put him in Dallas on November
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: twenty second, nineteen sixty three. And that's not true for
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: a lot of these people, but this one we can
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: right So Joe, let's get into Felipe video Santiago.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Sure, And so I think a lot of our listeners
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: are aware that our friend and co partner Doug Campbell
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: has done a ton of work on Felipe V Dallas Santiago.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: And I want to see. Rob. I have a one
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: minute clip from Dallas action I wanted to play and
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: it didn't work past in the past when I tried
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: to play things via x. But it talks. It's Doug
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: with Larry Hancock, and it talks about, to your point,
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: how Philippe VI Dallas Santiago was operational during nineteen sixty three.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: And you know he wasn't just talking the talk, he
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: was walking the walk. And let's see if this works.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: If not, I'll just paraphrase it. I already have this
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: open and if it doesn't, Rob stop me.
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: Okay, okay.
• 34:49
  Speaker 10: Get you get the sense that not only did Santiago
• 34:53
  Speaker 10: detest the Central Intelligence Agency, but they did not like
• 34:58
  Speaker 10: him either.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, as a matter of fact, they had tried, they
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: had approached him when when he left Cuba, and essentially
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: the fact that they had approached him because he would
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: have made a great contact with his background and he
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: was not the least interested in the agency. Yeah, they were.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: They did not like each other. That he didn't trust him.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: And from his perspective, and one of the reasons Sturgis
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: was paying so much attention to him is was was
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: operationally independent and he was one of the guys that
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: was doing things, not talking about doing things.
• 35:42
  Speaker 10: Yeah, and you know he and people forget about Felipe
• 35:45
  Speaker 10: beat out Santiago too before he defected. He was essentially,
• 35:51
  Speaker 10: I guess it would be the equivalent of of of
• 35:54
  Speaker 10: the United States Coast Guard, but what passed as the
• 35:58
  Speaker 10: Cuban Navy. He was, in effect, you know, on a
• 36:03
  Speaker 10: much smaller scale.
• 36:04
  Speaker 9: He was the.
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: Naval chief of Staff for Cuba.
• 36:09
  Speaker 10: He was the chief of the Cuban Maritime Patrol. He
• 36:13
  Speaker 10: was a big wheel in the Cuban Navy, wasn't he?
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: He was?
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: And that's why I made the remark earlier early in
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: sixty three, I recall several of the independent groups actually
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: got to the point which they didn't get to the
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: point of this often, but they were actually going to
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: run a consolidated mission into Cuba with half a dozen
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: different votes, very sophisticated operation, and they did not pick
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: anybody from any of their groups to run it. They
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: picked Fellibe to be in charge of it because he
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: was the one guy they all trusted. Yeah, and he
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: had that kind of experience.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: All right, So did you hear that offer?
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: Okay, so oh wow, I'm glad that worked. In the past.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Me trying to play audio through a tap did not work.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: But Larry Hancock is saying that Philippe Vido Santiago was
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: a very trusted, independent member of the exile community, and
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: the CIA initially tried to get him as a contract
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: agent and did, but later realized we can't control him.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: He's too independent. And when you think about someone who
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: might be involved in the Dallas action, U pun Intendant,
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: he fits all the boxes.
• 37:37
  Speaker 11: So all right, let me go to my power point here.
• 37:42
  Speaker 11: All right, So sir, it's the box of ideology. You know,
• 37:47
  Speaker 11: this is a guy who probably wouldn't do something for
• 37:49
  Speaker 11: the money because of the money. This is a guy
• 37:52
  Speaker 11: who would likely do something because he believed in it
• 37:56
  Speaker 11: so much.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: For sure. However, it is noted in the documents, the
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: FBI document that we're going to read, that he was
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: low on money, and of course he visited we'll get
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: into it General Walker in a separate trip to Dallas
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: in early November, trying to raise funds. Of course, General
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: Walker didn't really have money to contribute to these type
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: of things, and we'll see who might have given.
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: Money to him.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to read a little bit, just backing
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: up a little bit on Vidal Santiago's background. He was
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: born in Cuba. In nineteen twenty six, he became a
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: Cuban naval officer, but went to exile when Fidel Castro
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: gained power in fifty nine. He lived in South America
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: before moving to Miami, where he was associated with the
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: inter pen the Intercontinental Penetration Force Group. Vidal became a
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: close friend of John Martino. He also worked closely with
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: Roy Hargraves, who might come up on Part two, and
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: carried out a series of raising Cuba in the nineteen sixties.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: This involved the plan to create a war with Cuba
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: by simulating attack on Guantanamo Naval Base. In December sixty two,
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: Vidal had a meeting with a lawyer connected to a
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: quote citizens committee to free Cuba. He told Vidal about
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: a conversation he had with a Henry Cabot Lodge.
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: That John F.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Kennedy was exploring a plan to open dialogue with Cuba.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: Vidal was furious about this, about what he considered to
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: be an active betrayal, and immediately told leaders of the
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: anti Casher community NSCA contact a colonel by the name
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: of William Bishop and told all the exiles about the betrayal.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: And Larry Hancock argues in his book Someone would Have
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: Talked that Vidal traveled to Dallas on several occasions between
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: the thirty first of October and November twenty first, nineteen
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: sixty three, in order to raise funds for the anti
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: Castro exiles that included meeting with General Walker. On his
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: return to Miami, Vidal reportedly stated that Walker had no
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: further interest in Cuban affairs. However, Jerry Patrick Hemming claimed
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: that Vidal obtained money from H. L. Hunt, who had
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: been largely responsible for funding Walker's campaign for governor in Texas.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: Clint Murchison and Gordon McClendon also have been suggested as
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: possible contributors to v Dal's mission. And going to skip
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: here to a little excerpt from Someone Would Have Talked
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: by Larry Hancock. Of course, do you say something wrong Okay,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: what so Vidal was definitely was most definitely not CIA,
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: not a CIA employee or a contract agent in nineteen
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: sixty three, although he had been one for a time
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: after his defection, Vidal was in a totally different category.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: That would be the independent category.
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: That you can Yes, you still have the slide of
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: the pictures up.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's fine. I'm just reading from my word.
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: I thought you were trying to go to the next slide.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: I appreciate it, thank you. I will go there in
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: a second. In March sixty three, Felipe Vidal Santiago was
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: given legal notice by THENS, that is, the Immigration Naturalization
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: Service and who was supposed to retain restrain Vidal from
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: lead leaving Miami Dade County. The ins action was part
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: of the overall Kennedy administration crackdown on unsanctioned exile groups
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: attempting operations from within US territory. We've kind of talked
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: a lot about this. In April of sixty three, Vidal
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: was found in a boat off of the Florida Keys
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: in violation of his zion S restriction. In June sixty three,
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: dressed with hargraves for arms violations, but released. Now going
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: to October sixty three, Vidal and Hargraves were working closely together.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: At this point, they lacked financing and were supposedly working
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: at developing Cuban missions out of Nicaragua or Guatemala. Vidal
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: traveled to Dallas and stated that he visited General Walker
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: seeking donations. V Dal spent almost two weeks in Dallas
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: from October thirty, first, sixty three to November eleventh. Upon
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: his return, he too reportedly stated that Walker had no
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: further intent in kind of financing Cuban affairs, and Vidaal
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: was back in Dallas as of November twenty first, sixty three,
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: that would be one day for the assassination, still trying
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: to raise money for his operations, and still in violation
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: of his travel restriction. So before I get into the
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: other part, let me see. So, how do we know
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: Rob that Vidal was in Dallas. Well, there is an
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: FBI memo that is dated January twentieth, nineteen sixty four.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: That is the subject of this memo is the United
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: Front for National Libertarian Liberation. I'm sorry, and that is
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: vi Dalla's little group he formed there, and I kind
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: of screenshotted the relevant parts and we'll read it. It
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: is noted Vidalla Santiago was served in notice of prevention
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: of departure in March nineteen sixty three. This notice prevents
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: him from leaving the land limits of Miami Dade County, Florida. However,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: in April sixty three, Vidall was found in the Florida Keys,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: where US Custom sees his boat and a load of arms.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: In November sixty three, Vidal visited Dallas, Texas without permission
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: of INS and on I won't go to January yet.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: The Miami FBI office will maintain contact with the Miami
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: to ascertain what action this agency takes against Vidal concerning
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: his violation of ins prevention of departure rules. So you
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: know this is this is kind of a long document.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: And uh, someone mmt one is advising on v Doll's movements.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: And this is Joe m mt one. I believe me
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: and Doug figured this out.
• 45:19
  Speaker 12: Uh.
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: Robert K. Brown, who was part of interpinn and I
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: believe would go on to make the Soldier of Fortune magazine,
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: was actually an FBI informant.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: So hmm, I've heard of that name and it's also
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: been been talked about how Frank Sturgis was also informing
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: on v Dal as well. I don't know if this
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: is if m MT one the one they're referring to
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: here is Sturgis, but Sturgis was definitely keeping his eye
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: out on val And.
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: And all his his movements. Right, it wasn't actually a
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: part of inter Pinn, but Robert K. Brown was, so
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: at this time, I would probably lean more towards Robert K.
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: Brown being the sneeze.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, But the point is is that you know,
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: these guys, including Vidal, were trying to run these raids
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: into Cuba. Again, they weren't operational, they weren't just talking.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: They were walking the walk, risking their lives. And when
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: you think about someone that could be on the ground
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: in de lee Plaza, they're not going to be conservative, right,
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: They're going to be someone that is risking their lives
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: on a consistent basis.
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: Or something they believe in. Yes, yeah, for sure.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: So let's see MMT one, who was associated with Cuban
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: exile groups interested in conducting armed raids against the coast
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: of Cuba. On October third, sixty three, advised that feleet
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: Santiago continues to be the head of the United Front
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: for National Liberation. MMT one said that Vidal is in
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: bad financial condition and is currently looking for employment and
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: has recently been conferring with Marcos diaz Lands, MMT one
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: explaining that diaz Lands has been active in Cuban revelationary
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: matters for the past four years and is the brother
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: of Pedro diaz Lands, former head of the Cuban Revolutionary
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: Air Force, who also defected.
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and these are important names you've probably all heard
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: before with ties to this rumored ties to the assassination.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Yess Sir And October thirty one, sixty three, MMT one
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: advised that Vidal talks about conducting a mission at Cuba
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: and currently associates with Roy Hargraves, a soldier of fortune
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: and adventurer who is been involved with the Cuban exiles
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: in Miami for about the past two years. On November eleventh,
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: sixty three, MMT one advised that Vidal had just returned
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: from Dallas, Texas, where he had visited General Edwin E.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: Walker Vidall saw Walker for the purpose of obtaining money,
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: donations and support of Vidall's anti Castro organization. MMT one
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: advised it is doubtful that Vidal was able to obtain
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: any money from Walker, and vidals currently stated he is
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: interested in moving from the United States to Gualmala or Nicaragua.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Vidal says it's impossible for him to carry out his mission,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: his purpose of his anti castro activity in the United States,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: and that's because the FBI and the Kennedy administration was
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: hampering those efforts. He complains that the United States government
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: hinders his efforts to overthrow communism in Cuba. On November
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: twenty first, sixty three, MMT one advised that Vidal continues
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: his efforts to raise money and that he is in
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: a bad economic situation. November twenty second, sixty three, Santiago
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: Alvarez Rodriguez advised he is one of the leaders Commandos
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: l and conducted raised against Cuba. Let's go ahead here so.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: On December sixteenth, nineteen sixty three, Gerald Patrick Hemming advised
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: he is the head of inter penn In organization with
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: six members. It was more by then and the purpose
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: of the organization was to train Cuban exiles in military
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: tactics for eventual warfare against the present government of Cuba,
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: having stated that Vidal, having from having a background and
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: being in the Cuban Navy, has ability in the operation
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: of boats. He is interested in infiltrating supplies and arms
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: into Cuba to gorilla forces. And then he goes on
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: to say that Vidal lacks some military skills, but he
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: was really a navy guy. He wasn't known for like
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: his shot or whatever. But on December seventeen sixty three,
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: Vidalla Santiago was interviewed in connection with another matter and
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: states he continues to be the head of the United
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: Front for National Liberation and let's see here, so pay
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: attention this year. So Vidal is very upset with the
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: United States and their interference with his his work in
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: trying to overthrow Cuba. Vidal complained that every time Cuban
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: exile group plans military action against Cuba, one of the
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: groups sell one of the group sells the information to
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: the United States government and the mission is stopped, boats
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: and arms confiscated, and the United States governments continues to
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: prevent Cuban exiles to fighting to liberate their country.
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: Hence some rats in the nest.
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, And so Vidal was in.
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: Let me go here, was in.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: Dallas twice in November, from October thirty first to November eleventh,
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: and that's when he visited. This is from someone would
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: have talked Larry Hancock's timeline to November eleventh, and on
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: November eighth to twelfth is the period in which Oswalt's
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: subversive contacts are reported by FBI agent Hosty, and that
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: is the period in which Oswald was seen at the
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: Harlandale House, which was of course a bunch of exiles.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Vidal reportedly left Dallas on November eleventh, but on November
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: twenty first, and I made this a little bigger medal
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: is back in Texas. And that is one day before
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: the assassination. So when we talk about suspects in Dealey Plaza,
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: who can we actually confirm via some of the FBI
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: documents I just read and through some of the books,
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: like Larry Hancock, was he in Dallas?
• 52:40
  Speaker 6: And he was?
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: And let's see that. Sorry, I'm just getting my slice together.
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: Air me uh Chinese commenting and a little yeah, I
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: know they get crazy, Tony. But you got to keep
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: in mind that neither the CIA nor the FBI could
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: have ever dreamed at this time, that these internal documents
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: would ever see the light of day. That they would
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: never have dreamed in a million years that they would
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: have to show that these internal documents to the citizens
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: of the United States at some point in the future.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, computers weren't around then.
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: Fully, ACT wasn't out yet, you know, yeah, for sure.
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: And uh, I just want to read something from Bloody Treason.
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: And of course Bloody Treason has a ton on hard
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: Graves and Santiago. But this is actually uh uh from
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: an interview Dirty Dick made with Gerald Pastrick Hemming and
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: it goes as follows. The week before the assassination, Felipe
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: Vidal Santiago told my group Intermined that some people had
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: approached him to go to a big meeting in Dallas
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: that week. We warned him, Vital and some other people
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: not to go, that something funny was up. I'd heard
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: of other meetings where the conversation got steered around towards
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: hitting JFK instead of Fidel Castro. I'm talking about some
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: friends of Nicaraguan dictator and to and Anastio Samasa and
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: some people in Dallas having continues. It's hard to say
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: exactly who this select group of Cuban exiles was really
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: working for having continued for a while. They were reporting
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: to Bill Harvey's xc FX FBI CIA guys, some were
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: reporting back to Hoover and the new DIA Defense Intelligence Agency.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: There was the third force, pretty much outside CIA channels,
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: outside of our own private operation down in the Keys,
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: that was doing all kinds of shit and had been
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: all through nineteen sixty three. So Heming is saying that
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: he's warning Vidal a week before the assassination not to
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: go to Dallas.
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you just heard before we started here, Lauren Hall
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: in his own words, saying the exact same thing about
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: these meetings in Dallas.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I wanted to you know,
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: we had showed this for a while. This is, of
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: course the picture of dark complexed man sitting on the
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: curb with umbrella man, and a lot of people think
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: it is Felibe Fi Dallas. Santiago me included. It's very
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: obvious if you look at he's tall, he's lanky, same
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: type of hairline, although he's wearing a kind of beret,
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: and he was operational. He was not happy with how
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: the US government was stopping his attempts to overthrow communism,
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: and as we saw from the i S documents, he
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: literally was in Dallas twice in nineteen sixty three when
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: he was not supposed to be withouts permission.
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know one of those documents that or
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: might have been Hemmings saying that he wasn't like operational
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: material as far as you know, a shooter, which, of course,
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: if this is him and Deally plaid, he wasn't, but
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: more like a spot yeah, more like on the spot
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: type of signaler, you know, especially if he has some
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: kind of communication communications equipment in his jacket. He could
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: be like, all right, let me just turning the corner now,
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: you know, and then once the shooting started, once they
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: hit the target, hand goes up seized fire type of thing.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah for sure, and let me just finish
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: up here. So the FBI eventually went to go visit,
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: visit and interview John Martino, who Felipe Vidal was very
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: close with, right, and who was sitting on Martino's couch, Well,
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: you guessed it. Felipe vidal son Thiago, who's the subject
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: of BU file one oh five dash whatever. Vidal has
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: been active, has been active in anti Castro activities and
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: maybe one of the unidentified sources of Martino's information on
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: Cuban matters. So you have Vidal sitting in Martino's house
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: when the FBI eventually in February beginning of February, came
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: to interview Martino. He's sitting there, and you might wonder
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: what happened to mister Felippe Vidalla Santiago. Well, in April
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty four, only a few months after the
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: jfk assassination. Of course, like we've been telling you, he
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: is still operational. He is walking the walk. And this
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: is after the January which is a whole different story.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: A boat bomb where Hargraves and Santiago and Dicky Chappelle,
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: the famous wartime correspondent who was later killed in Vietnam,
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: had to get off this boat because it was blown
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: up by a bomb. And you have to wonder if
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: that was the first attempt to kind of tie up
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: loose ends in regards to Santiago. Definitely could have been.
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: But in April sixty four he goes into a mission
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: to Cuba, and I'm going to read from this news
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: article Prime Minister Fidel Castro's firing squads have shot four
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: Cuban exiles captured when they tried to land in Cuba.
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: The announcement was first mentioned of the capture of infiltrators
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: since the.
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: Hold on.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: The men had sailed for Miami in an operation that
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: was organized, directed, and financed by the Central Intelligence Agency.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: The four were executed Wednesday after a trial by the
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: First Revolutionary Tribunal of the Havana District. They were identified
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: as Felipe Vidal Santiago, officer, former officer in the navy
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: of the Dictator, full Genio Bautista le Diciano Gonzales Benitez,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: and two other names no one will know. They were
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: captured by frontier guards the Interior Ministry and interesting Leon
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: enough rob and this is my last slide, Fabian Escalante,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: who was I guess the best way to say this
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: is kind of like the Jim Angleton of Cuba's counter
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: intelligence right right, for lack of a better comparison.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: And he went to.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: A JFK conference I think it was in the Caribbean,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: and then I think it was ninety five, and spoke
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: at this conference and Larry Hancock was there, I believe,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: and a bunch of other people. And in December ninety
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: five he told our study group in Nassau. Yeah, the Bahamas,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: right that before Phelipe went v Dallas Santiago's execution by
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: Cuba in April sixty four, Vidals told him he had
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: been driven by CIA's Colonel William Bishop from Miami to
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: Dallas in sixty three and he met with wealthy Texans
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: at the Dallas Petroleum Club. And that's that's corroborated by
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: what Heming said, Rob. Yeah, and this was independently confirmed
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: in a similar story that, like we just said, Gerald Pator,
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: Heming had told it Russell, but Heming did not mention
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: Colonel William Bishop. Colonel Bishop told Gary Shaw a similar
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: story driving Vidal from Miami to Dallas in April sixty
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: three to meet with General Edward Walker and others were
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: discussions of killing President Kennedy occurred.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: So yeah, So, and another point I wanted to make
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: too is that you know, even if there were sponsors,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: this is a group of guys who have also heard
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: the supposition put forth that there was so much interest
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: in this thing getting done that they could have possibly
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: got it done, and then went back for some money
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: from some of these big wig people and say, look,
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: we did what you wanted. You didn't pay us to
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: do it, but we did what you wanted, so now
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: you can pay us the type of thing. But again,
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: with the damage has done at that point, they didn't
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: have to pay anything. But you know, as well, as
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: we'll see when we get into more about some of
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: these other folks, you know, suddenly Felipe VI dalla Santiago
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: is back, uh, you know, with boats and running these
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: missions into Cuba, which required a substantial amount of money
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: to do. You need to acquire weaponry, you need to
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: acquire a boat, you need to acquire supplies, medical supplies,
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: and you have to have a reason for going in there.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: You can't think four people are going to go in
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: there and just change Cuba and kill Castro. You know,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: you've got to have some kind of a plan. So
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: it's not out of the room of possibility that these
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: type of things were happening. As well, if it wasn't
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: upfront money, it could have been asked for money afterwards.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: And as we'll see, you know, some of these people
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: may have come into some money at some point that
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: the people were going to be talking about here today,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: including Philippe, including Lauren Hall, including Lawrence Howard and Roy Hargraves,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: who continued to run these chaos type missions well into
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: the seventies.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I just want to mention that,
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: And I know we talked about this briefly last episode,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: Rob that Doug Campbell's article slash video because for the
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: a RC Lecture series goes into this much deeper than
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: we have today. And maybe we'll put the the link
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: and the show notes, but essentially, if you were to
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: google AARC library Doug Campbell, it will be the first
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: thing to come up. And for those that don't want
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: to read it and want to listen to it, he
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: did a whole hour and twenty minute reading of his
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: research article and it goes a ton into exactly what
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: we're talking about. Vidal har Grams, sturges everything, so it's
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: you know, he really crushed it on that, So we
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: definitely want to give him his due credit there, and
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: I know we talked about that in the beginning of
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: last episode.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: So absolutely all right, So let's get into Lawrence Howard
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: a little bit. Now, Lawrence Howard, let me get back
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: over here. Let's see, this is Lawrence Howard in his
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: gorilla uniform. You see he is strapped with a side
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 3: arm and some type of machine gun.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: It looks like, yeah, he was a big boy, wasn't he.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Note the beret Joe, you know, keeping company. This
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 3: is him with William Seymour. Note William Seymour is holding
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: a rifle. Okay, and this is Lawrence Howard's mug shot
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: from violating the Neutrality Act. Him and other members of
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: Enter Penn were arrested on December fourth, nineteen sixty two,
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: for violation of the Neutrality Act. This is you know,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: they were trying to get some things together to go
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: on a raid. Somebody snitched on him. Again, the raid
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: did not happen, the trailer of guns was impounded, and
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: these guys were arrested. So, yes, this is Big Larry,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: Fat Larry, as we call him lovingly.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they call him the Mexican or something.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he has a lot of different nicknames. Joe and
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: we'll get into Okay, all right, and what are you
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: playing over there? Shut that thing up? All right, my phone,
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: let's see all right, So let's uh, let's fly back
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: here a little bit now. During the time of the
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: HSC A Lauren Hall provided sworn testimony to the Committee
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 3: and an executive session on October fifth, nineteen seventy seven,
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 3: and the following is a passage excerpt from that testimony.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 3: Question did there come a time when the FBI spoke
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 3: to you about whether or not you visited Silviodio in
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 3: September of sixty three? Yes, there was who spoke to you,
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: Hall says an FBI agent question at that time? Where
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 3: you advised why you were being questioned about Silviodio? Hall,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: I really don't recall, he stated, As I recall, he
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: stated something to the effect that you were ever in Dallas, Texas?
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 3: And I said yes. He said, do you know a
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: missus Odio? And I said, I don't recall knowing that
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 3: missus Odio. I think I knew a professor Odeo, who
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 3: was a professor at Texas some university in Texas, just
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: outside of Dallas. As I recall, he asked me anyway
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 3: about the apartment building on Magellan and I said it's possible.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I've said do you have a picture
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 3: of her? And he said no, I don't, And I said, well,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: it's possible I met her. I don't recall. He then
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: asked me who was with me? And I told him
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: I was with Alba and Howard. And then it was
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 3: like maybe a month or two and you told him
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 3: you were there with Howard and Alba. Yes, on the
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 3: first trip. Yes, we both read the same FBI report.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: You know, it's directly contradictory to what I'm saying. Question,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 3: So it is your testimony that at no time did
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: you ever tell an FBI agent that you were in
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 3: Dallas accompanied by Lawrence Howard and William Seymour. Is that
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 3: your testimony? Hal says, that's true. Question, were you ever
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: directly or indirectly involved with Sylvia Odio in acquiring military
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 3: equipment for anti castro raids? Hall, No, Sir, I was not.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 3: Now the committee also interviewed Lawrence Howard on May twenty third,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: nineteen seventy eight. Howard stated that he never met Sylvia
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: Odio the committe He also interviewed William Seymour, who acknowledged
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 3: his relationship with Hall and Howard, but did not recall
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 3: any details of a trip to Dallas, including meeting any
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: Cubans there. So that's the kind of first mentioned, if
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 3: you will, in the official record. It was added very
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: late to the Warren Commission Report. I believe it wasn't
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: added tilmast September of that year. And that's the first
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: mention we have of Lauren Hall and Laurence Howard. Their
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 3: names are in the Warner Report because of this alleged meeting,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: and the story goes that Hall told them this, right,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: and that Howard denied it and said that Hall is
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: lying and that's the hill that he chose to die on.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: And then Lauren Hall later recanted with this is HSCA testimony,
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 3: stating that he never told the FBI that. But I
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 3: find it hard to believe that the FBI would just
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: make this up out out of nowhere and stick it
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 3: in the Warren Report for what reason, right, I don't know.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: Now, was a very scary person, So if you said
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: something that implicated him in some way, I don't blame anyone,
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: even someone as tough as Lauren Hall, for retracting that.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. And of course this little excerpt in the
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 3: in the Warren Commission Report led Jim Garrison to be
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 3: very interested in Lauren Hall and Lawrence Howard. We know
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: through documentation, we have the FBI documents that these two
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: at least these two stopped in Dallas in October of
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 3: nineteen sixty three. Hall was arrested. He was driving the car.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 3: They had some drugs in the glove compartment, and I
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: think they'd already dropped off the trailer full of guns
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 3: at this point.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: At Log's house. Yeah, I had remember, as the audio
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: who played, I had left something there.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 11: It's very vague, Yeah, very vague, even though we all
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 11: know what he's talking about.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 3: Right, So you know, I'm just laying the groundwork setting
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: all this up, so you can see why we think
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 3: what we think, Okay, because we know Hall and Howard
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 3: visited Dallas several times in October, in November nineteen sixty three,
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: and you have these other folks visiting Dallas doing the
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: same kind of things that Vidall was doing, that Hemy
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 3: was doing. And I believe Heming was pissed off because
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 3: Hall was going behind his back to his contacts in
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 3: Dallas and trying to solicit money for his own thing,
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: not necessarily for inter penn Right because if if if
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 3: you look back and you and you see all that
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 3: the footage from Interpennent, Hall's not there, Howard's there, Hardgraves
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 3: is there, but Vidal and Hall are not there. Dad
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 3: was more like a independent type of independent contractor type.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 3: He teamed up with them when when it was beneficial
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 3: to him kind.
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: Of thing, yep, you know, but still very trusted.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure they shared information and supplies and things
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 3: like this, and they knew of each other's plans to
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: do certain things. Because this is what these guys did,
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: you know. So I'm gonna play a little snippet here,
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 3: another little snippet from Thomas Beckham. Okay, love it. Here
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 3: we go.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 7: A package approximately i'd say two weeks to Dallas prior
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 7: to the assassination of the president to a mister Howard.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 7: I went into mister G. J. Gill's office. I was
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 7: told to go there by mister Ferry, which I knowed
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 7: real well, knew real well, and h In his office,
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 7: they shuffled up some documents which were drawings out of
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 7: a map or plots and stuff. There were some pictures
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 7: pictures of buildings and cars, and was regular pictures, but
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 7: there wasn't glossy. They were put inside in the of
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 7: an envelope, at which time g. R. Gilt handed me
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 7: it was either one hundred or two hundred dollars told
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 7: me that I was to be I was gonna be
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 7: taken to the airport.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: I was delivered to deliver this package.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 7: To uh uh mister uh Howard Executive. Then at that
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 7: meeting was Roswell was uh uh Jack Martin, uh, David
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 7: Ferris and uh a bunch of Sergeria Concia. Uh. Also
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 7: at that meeting was your mister Uh Marsel was at
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 7: that meeting setting at then they were sitting on a couch.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 7: I remember the counch uh. Uh let's see now.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 9: Uh.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 7: I delivered the package though they told me. One thing
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 7: was made remark was that I was wearing no jewelry,
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 7: not to talk to uh any of the airline stories
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 7: to create any uh uh uh you know, drone anything
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 7: to me?
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 6: Uh.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 7: A good friend Playshaw was also there and uh uh
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 7: the envelope was put in a magazine. They want me
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 7: a magazine stuck inside there. I took a cab from
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 7: the airport to a place called Executive then that's in Dallas,
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 7: of where I met mister Howard. Mister Howard was upset
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 7: because uh when I got out of the cab was
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 7: heading there, he tooted for me in his horn. The
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 7: car was a kind of a raggedy looking car. I
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 7: got in hand him the package and he leaned against
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 7: the door, uh, as if to face me, but the
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 7: package was away from me, and I hand it to him,
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 7: just like he was in the magazine. Uh. He opened
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 7: it up and uh. He looked at me a couple
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 7: of times, and I went affixed to look off from
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 7: the other direction, and he got real mad. He said,
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 7: is this this can't be all? This can't be all
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 7: it is. I don't know the exact words. I said,
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 7: yes it is. He said, like h or something to
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 7: that effect.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 7: And I said, look, you can go call him, meaning
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 7: to go call giy Gill. I said that cause that's
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 7: only gave me. So we drove from there about I
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 7: guess about three blocks. He pulled over again. He reviewed
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 7: the stuff that was in the package. Now, I didn't
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 7: take nothing out of the package. I didn't even except
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 7: for seeing it on mister or Gill's desk, and I'm
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 7: shuffling up putting it inside the thing. I didn't. It
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 7: was knowledge. All I knew was the photographs of buildings
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 7: and cars, and I'm neatly drawn maps. It's not like
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 7: a regular city map, but it was diagrams and stuff
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 7: drawn on paper. And at that time to this day,
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 7: I don't know.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 13: Again, I think I took a cab back here for it. Anyway,
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 13: I had round Tripp. I went back and I discussed
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 13: the fact that how upset mister Howard was. I discussed
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 13: it with Roswell, which is a Roswell Thompson, and also
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 13: mister gild with that thing went on from there another
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 13: subject that I know that Now, this was within a
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 13: span of two weeks prior to.
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 7: The assassination as the president. One of the gentlemen that
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 7: fits in a thing that I knew I was involved
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 7: in was an oar thing called the Organization, which was
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 7: all a part of.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 3: All. Right, there you have it out of Thomas Beckham's mouth. Now,
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 3: I know a lot of people might not put a
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 3: lot of faith in Thomas Beckham as his story. Did
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 3: you change from the time with a Garrison Grand Jury
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 3: uh testimony that he gave and the hsc A testimony
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 3: that he gave. But again you have to remember he
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 3: does throw a lot of names at the wall and
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 3: and and some things may be embellished or things like that,
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 3: but he specifically singles out Lawrence Howard as to be
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 3: the man that he contacted in Dallas and gave this
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 3: package to full of pictures and diagrams of buildings and
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 3: streets maps more than likely type of thing maybe plans.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 3: So for Beckham at this time, you know, Lawrence Howard
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: is still alive. Lawren Hall is still alive. These guys
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 3: went and were interviewed by the hsc A. And so
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 3: for for Thomas Beckham to come out at this time
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 3: and say the things that he said, uh are pretty
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 3: crazy and more more.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: Significant than if both of them were dead.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 3: And he's saying that, right, Yeah, a lot of people
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 3: he talks about, David Ferry, Gee, Ray Gill and all
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 3: the you know, all these guys are dead by then,
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 3: but uh, you know, Lawrence Howard is not dead at
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 3: this point some serious people, right and and the HSCA
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 3: knew this. They knew what Beckham said when they interviewed Howard,
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 3: and they didn't mention any of it to Howard. They
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 3: didn't bring it up, they didn't ask him about it nothing.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: Which is interesting was that when Delsa and whoever went
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: to California to talk to him, Yeah, where he met
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: them at like a gas station and he's like carrying like.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 3: All these Elsa had interviewed Beckham and he knew Beckham's story.
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: That was before I'm saying, I'm trying to just get
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: the timeline.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they interviewed Beckham before they went to talk to
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 3: Howard God. Now, I tried for the life of me, Joe,
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 3: because uh, let's let me. Let me pull this up
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 3: so I don't get the dates wrong. So on December third,
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 3: twenty fourteen, The Real Deal with Jim Fetzer podcast Here Boy,
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 3: Episode number thirty eight was an interview with LJ. Delsa,
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 3: former investigator for the HSCA, in which Jim Fetzer went
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 3: to LJ. Delsa's house. LJ. Delsa, at this time was
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 3: very elderly but still very lucid, okay, And they sat
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 3: down in Ljdelsa's kitchen and interviewed him for about twenty
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 3: or thirty minutes, and LJ. Delsa told a very interesting story. Now,
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 3: the audio of this interview doesn't exist anymore. That is,
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 3: the webpage exists from Radioffetser dot blogspot dot com, which
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 3: is that link, but the audio link itself is dead.
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: It didn't exist at some point.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. I remember I listened to it a couple
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 3: times when it came out, because what it said was,
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 3: you know, the way Delsa described Lawrence meeting Lawrence Howard
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 3: and talking to Lawrence Howard was insane.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 3: This is LJ. Deelsa, homicide investigator for twenty years in
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 3: New Orleans, an investigator for the HSCA, relating this story
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 3: of flying to California, meeting up with Lawrence Howard at
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 3: a gas station or somewhere down from his house. He
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 3: got in the he got in the truck with Lawrence Howard,
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 3: who met him there, and before they even got into anything,
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 3: Howard shows him his gun and said, just so you know,
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 3: I'm packing right, And Delsa said okay, And of course
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 3: he wasn't because he had to fly to California, right.
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 3: So Howard proceeds to drive him up to Howard's house
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 3: where they sat down and they had a little chat.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 3: And immediately after that, after Howard had brought Delsa and
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 3: his partner back down to their car and and Howard left. Now,
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 3: I wish that Delsa would have given some specifics about
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 3: their conversation, and I'm sure he did. I just don't
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 3: remember the audio. I just remember certain parts of it,
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 3: like the part I'm telling you now. But he looked
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 3: at his partner and he said, you know, he had
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 3: one of those gut feelings like homicide cops often do
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 3: after talking to suspects and things of that nature. And
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 3: he looked at he looked dead in his partner's face,
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 3: and he was like, I think we just talked to
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 3: the guy that shot Kennedy and like, yeah, I think
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 3: I think so. Now. The Delsa Orleans, New Orleans part
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 3: of the hsc and investigation was shut down not too
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 3: long after this. They pretty much shut him down and said,
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 3: you know, more money to be looking into this kind
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 3: of thing over here. They were near, they were nearing
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 3: wrapping up other thing anyway, and nobody ever did anything
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 3: with it. But I wish to God that that audio.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure Fetzer has it, but it's not
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 3: like I can call Fetzer and be like, hey man,
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 3: you still got that. LJ. Delsa interview kind of burned
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 3: that bridge a long time ago, I think, uh, but uh,
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 3: you know, just it's these it's these, it's the small
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 3: things that that really make your ears perk up and
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 3: When you take these things individually, they might not seem
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 3: like a lot, but when you start to put them
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 3: all together in a picture, Okay, you have that I'm
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 3: saying this, you have Delsa saying this, you have Haul
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 3: saying this, and you have and you can see what
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 3: Howard was involved in. He's one of these guys that
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 3: chose to leave his family behind and go do something
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 3: that he believed so strongly enough in to quit his
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 3: job and leave his family behind, leave his kids behind,
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 3: and go fight.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: For your freedom and rescure life.
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it was no joke. These guys were getting
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 3: arrested multiple times for multiple things. So in January of
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 3: nineteen sixty eight, the CIA, of course, we're interested in
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 3: what Garrison was doing down there. So these internal memos
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 3: are basically trying to figure out if any of these
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 3: people that Garrison was looking into at any CIA connections verifiable.
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 3: And this is their reference on Lawrence Jay Howard, also
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 3: known as Escarido and Alonzo Fat Larry the Mexican see
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 3: also Hemming Gerald Patrick Junior, and Lauren E. Gen Hall
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 3: known associates. Allegation Lawrence J. Howard of Los Angeles was
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 3: subpoena by Garrison as a material witness on twenty nine
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 3: December sixty seven. He was ordered to appear before the
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 3: New Orleans Grand Parish Grand Jury on one and two
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 3: February sixty eight. CIA connection none verifiable source newspaper clippings
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 3: from December twenty ninth. In December thirty sixty seven, which
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 3: we'll get into here in a second negative for the
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 3: OS induses results Office of Security. That would be negative
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: excerpt for a reference to subject's name in a newspaper
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 3: clipping dated five December sixty two in the file of
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 3: Gerald T. Or Gerald P. Heming, Junior. The article reported
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 3: that thirteen men were arrested at Sombrero Bay or Sombrero Key, Florida,
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 3: on charges of violating US neutrality laws by an attempt
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 3: to form an expedition to invade a foreign country. Gerald
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 3: Patrick Heming was identified as the leader of the group
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 3: and Lawrence J. Howard Junior, twenty seven of Pico Rivera, California,
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 3: as one of his merry band of invaders. The invaders
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 3: claimed they were an independent unit not affiliated with any
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 3: Cuban exile organization. Details the Washington Star newspaper clipping did
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 3: dated thirty December sixty seven, described Howard as a welder
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 3: and pipefitter who was reported by his wife to be
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 3: somewhere in Mexico and unavailable for comment regard guarding the
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 3: subpoena from Garrison. So he's laying low, his wife's saying
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 3: he's somewhere in Mexico, which I doubt that he was.
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, didn't him in Hall go to Mexico for
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: a while after the assassination. I've heard that.
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 3: Yes, that is a legend. Again, more than likely he's
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 3: laying low somewhere after the assassination. I don't know if
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 3: they actually went to Mexico.
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: Hey, I hope they got their payday before they went.
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 3: But it would be It would make sense considering, you
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 3: know that people thought he was a Mexican. You know,
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 3: you go somewhere, you're going to blend in with a
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 3: hundreds or millions of other people. I mean, if you
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 3: don't want to be found, go to Mexico, you know.
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 3: Now, When he was arrested in December nineteen sixty two
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 3: for violation of the Neutrality Act, he was released the
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 3: next day on his own recognisance, authorized by the US
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 3: Commission of Something. I don't know what it's cut off.
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 3: But their sheet basically states that Lawrence John Howard Jr.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 3: Race white, okay wait, white yeah yeah? Sex male, uh
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 3: five eleven two thirty six, black hair, brown eyes, dated
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 3: birth January seventeenth, thirty five in Los Angeles, California. Tattoos
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 3: right upper arm a flower and tattoo left upper arm
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 3: twin heart tattoos. I mean he loved his wife enough
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 3: to get twin heart tattoos of her, but he didn't
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 3: lower enough to stay with her. You know, he chose
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 3: this ideology over his wife.
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 1: Hey, that comes second, the wife.
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 3: His address in nineteen sixty two was General Delivery, Big
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 3: pine Key, Florida. Social Security number unknown. Now I believe
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 3: this is from the FBI, who, like I said, we're
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 3: watching the Garrison investigation very closely, and this is their
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 3: analysis of several newspaper articles that were popping up about
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 3: these guys. Excuse me, let's see. The article reported that
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 3: in October sixty three, a number of the key figures
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 3: in Garrison's probe converged upon Dallas. The Free Cuba group
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 3: was installed in a house in Harlandale, which Joe mentioned earlier,
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 3: which is in South oak cliff past Ruby's apartment on
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 3: October third, the evening he returned from Mexico, Oswald checked
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 3: into the YMCA on North Irv Street and remained there
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 3: for two days. The same two days, the room next
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 3: to him was occupied by a Cuban appearing young man
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 3: who registered as R. Navarez Narvaez on the night of
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 3: October seventeenth. This is less than two weeks later, Lauren
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 3: Hall and Lawrence Howard Junior arrived at the same YMCA.
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 3: They checked out on October twenty second. The article commented
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 3: that the arrival of Hall possibly dovetails with the story
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 3: of a new witness located by Garrison. The witness stated
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 3: that in nineteen sixty three, Hall was short of funds
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 3: and petitioned him for assistance in the anti cap True movement.
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 3: He declined, but lent Hall fifty dollars, holding a thirty
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 3: odd six caliber rifle as collateral. Yeah. Maybe we've heard
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 3: about the rifle before.
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the pathcock pain wretfle in California that they pont.
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 3: Of course, About a month after the assassination, Hall redeemed
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 3: the weapon, commenting that he was going to Dallas to
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 3: meet with the wealthy oil man the same oil man
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 3: who Garrison knows posted bail for Hall and William Seymour
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 3: when they were arrested in Dallas in mid October. The
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 3: article commented that the FBI had stripped Dallas police files
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 3: of all pertinent material concerning the arrest, and that the
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 3: FBI did not locate Hall, Howard, and Seymour until just
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 3: before the Warring report went to press, which is what
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 3: I was talking about before, when they were when they
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 3: put him at the Odio residence. The files of the
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 3: New Orleans Office show that Lauren Hall Lawrence Howard Junior
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 3: were involved in the investigation concerning the assassination of President
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 3: Kennedy through the testimony of Silvia Odio, who testified that
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 3: she observed Oswald in the company of two Cuban or
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 3: Mexican men sometime in late October or late I'm sorry,
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 3: late September or early October sixty three. The files of
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 3: the New Orleans Office are incomplete concerning information furnished by
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 3: Sylvia Odio during interviews by the FBI, and are also
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 3: incomplete concerning interviews with Lauren Hall and Lawrence Howard Junior.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 3: The Red Flash edition of the New Orleans States item
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 3: December twenty ninth, sixty seven reported that Lauren Hall was
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 3: subpoenaed by District Attorney Garrison as a witness in his
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 3: assassination probe. The article reported that Garrison has information that
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 3: Hall checked into the Dallas YMCA in October of sixty
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 3: three and remained in Dallas until the time of the assassination.
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 3: Hall was in Dallas with Jack Ruby and other individuals
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 3: believed to be involved in the assassination, that he brought
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 3: a weapon to Dallas shortly before the assassination, that he
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 3: was active in the Free Cuba movement in Florida, Louisiana,
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 3: and Texas, and that he previously engaged in CIA sponsored
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 3: guerrilla training in Florida for raids on Cuba, and that
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 3: he was in association with Oswald in Dallas. Before Hall's
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 3: arrival in Dallas, he was in the New Orleans area
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 3: and was in contact with David Ferry and other individuals
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 3: who frequented five point thirty one Lafayette Street, identified as
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 3: the same office building described as five point forty four
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 3: Camp Street, the address used on leaflets handed out by
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 3: Oswald in New Orleans. Hall, allegedly, before the assassination, was
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 3: President at discussions concerning it, which of course we heard
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 3: before in his own words. The article reported that the
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 3: subpoena for Lawrence Howard stated that information had been given
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 3: to the DA that Howard was in association with Ferry
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 3: in sixty three during the course of visits to New Orleans,
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 3: that Lawrence Howard was engaged in CIA sponsored guerrilla training
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 3: in Florida for raised on Cuba, that he was active
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 3: in the Free Cuba movement in Florida, Louisiana, and Texas,
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 3: and that he associated with Ferry and others at five
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 3: point thirty one Lafayette. The subpoena also says that Howard
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 3: arrived in Dallas and checked into the YMCA in October
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 3: of nineteen sixty three and stayed in Dallas until the
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 3: time of the Kennedy assassination. The subpoena claims Howard was
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 3: in contact with Ruby and other individuals believed to be
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 3: involved in the assassination unquote, in the Bakersfield, California. On
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 3: January third, nineteen sixty eight. The Associated Press in New
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 3: Orleans had reported from New Orleans that Hall, while saying
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 3: he disliked President Kennedy, denied any knowledge of a conspiracy
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 3: to kill him. Hall was also quoted as saying he
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 3: would not return voluntarily to New Orleans, but if a
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 3: court directed him to do so, I naturally will.
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 6: Go, he said.
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 3: I have nothing to hide, he said. So now I'm
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 3: gonna play this very brief other clip. Here we go.
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 2: Names right now, there's only two of us left alive.
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: That's me in Santa Tropic Connie.
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 9: As far as I'm gonna work both lest stay alive
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 9: because I ain't gonna.
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 2: Say shit, whether under saying if any of you ask
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 2: who will come near.
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 12: Me, you better have a fucking army.
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: Wait you baby, but I've got my shit together and I'll.
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 2: Blow the first one of your motherfuckers away that even
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 2: comes near me.
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: And that you can put in print, O, I love it.
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: I love it. That is an emotional Lauren Hall. And Yeah,
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 1: being someone that has lost their temper way too many
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: times and lost control of emotions, you could just tell that.
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: I think it was Asy Webern who called him on that. Uh,
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: at that point he just didn't give a fuck, you
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like he didn't he did, he
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: didn't you could help.
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And thanks to Terran Horse for the audio.
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you tour.
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 3: Now, combine all this with something we've talked about here
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 3: and on the Dallas action Doug's talked about it as well,
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 3: of the whole securing this thirty odd six rifle before
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 3: they went to Dallas, also securing a movie camera, which
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 3: we talked about on this show not very long ago. Yep. Okay,
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 3: you know, you just don't do that kind of thing
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 3: without having something in mind. And there's a whole reason
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 3: that the FBI was knocking knock knocking on Roy Paine's
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 3: door the day after the assassination asking about this rifle.
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 3: He would not have done so unless they had actually
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 3: found this rifle in Dallas and fingerprinted and ran it
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 3: back to Roy Payne and Lauren Hall without a doubt, okay.
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 3: And the fact that they bought a movie camp not
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 3: a shitty zuppruiter camera, I'm talking a movie quality camera.
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 3: Then in today's money, would it cost what we say
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 3: it was four or five thousand dollars?
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 1: What was the original amount? I can't even remember, oh
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 1: times ten whatever it was. Yeah, probably when it was
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 1: something like that for the campra Yeah, that's five grand,
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 1: which for people soliciting funds for their movement, five grand
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 1: is nothing to sneeze that.
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and he wrote it for a check for the
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 3: Free Cuba Committee. He had a blank check and they
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 3: I had the receipt. Remember, Yep, they bought the camera earlier. Yep.
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 3: The new witness referred to in the article could possibly
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 3: be Richard Hathcock, Allied International Detective Agency, Los Angeles, California,
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 3: who was interviewed by the FBI on November twenty third,
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 3: nineteen sixty three. That's right here in black and white
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 3: in the FBI document. I just told you somebody was
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 3: knocking from the FBI on this guy's door the day
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 3: after the assassination asking about this rifle. Yep, for a reason.
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not random. No, that you could understand if
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 1: it's random, if it's like two three weeks after or whatever.
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 1: This is November twenty third, the following day.
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Hathcock advised it. Approximately a year prior to the
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 3: interview that Jerry Patrick Hemming whose true name is Jerry Hemming,
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 3: and Lorenzo Pascio, also known as Lorenzo Hall or Skip Hall,
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 3: came to Hathcock's office stating that they were broke and
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 3: needed money. Patrick and Pascio had with them a set
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 3: of golf clubs and a thirty on six Johnson semi
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 3: automatic rifle with bush Nell variable powered scope, on which
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 3: Hathcock loaned them one hundred dollars fifty on each item.
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 3: Hathcock reported that on November eighteenth, nineteen sixty three, Lauren
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 3: Hall came in with fifty dollars and retrieved the rifle.
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry. September eighteenth, sixty three, Lorenzo Hall and Lawrence
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 3: Howard came in with fifty dollars and retrieved the rifle.
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 3: Halfcock advised that both Patrick and Hall or violently anti Castro,
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 3: and both told them that they had fought in the
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 3: mountains with Castro and Cuba. However fell out with him
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 3: after the revolution. All right, fast forward to Lawrence Howard
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 3: and the Garrison investigation. February twenty eight. I'm sorry. February
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 3: twenty seventh, nineteen sixty eight. Lawrence Howard Junior, a witness
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 3: and District District Attorney Jim Garrison's assassination probe, told newsman
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 3: here last night that he had been to New Orleans
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 3: talk with Garrison and found him quote a very nice guy.
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 1: It's a good guy.
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 3: It's a good guy. Howard was subpoened as a material
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 3: witness by Garrison and successfully fought extradition, but he said
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 3: over the weekend he was coming to New Orleans voluntarily
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 3: to testify. Newsmen in New Orleans did not see him
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 3: at the courthouse yesterday. The DA's office was closed today
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 3: for Mardi Grass. Howard told LA reporters that he used
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 3: the check Garrison sent him for travel expenses. He did
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 3: not say whether he would return to New Orleans for
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 3: a formal grand jury appearance. The grand jury meets Thursday.
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 3: Howard said he expects Garrison to issue a statement in
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 3: the next few days clearing his name. He had not
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 3: been accused of any wrongdoing. Then the next day talked
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 3: with DA in New Orleans. Howard Kennedy, associate the assassination
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 3: probe witness, Lawrence Howard Junior, said Tuesday in Los Angeles,
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 3: after returning from New Orleans, where he conferred with District
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 3: Attorney Jim Garrison, that Garrison is quote a very fine
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 3: person and sincere in his investigation, quote, I now feel
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 3: he is definitely on to something and the direction of
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 3: his investigation is the right one end quote. He added,
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 3: he spent four and a half hours talking with Garrison Tuesday,
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 3: clearing up a number of things, but declined to give details. Howard,
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 3: now a thirty two year old unemployed welder of Elmonte, California,
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 3: A successfully fought extradition to Louisiana as a material witness
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 3: in the probe, but during the past week he announced
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 3: he'd come to New Orleans voluntarily. Asked why he changed
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 3: his mind, Howard said he wanted to clear his name
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 3: and he felt he could help the investigation if he could. So, again,
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 3: we don't know exactly what they talked about in this
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 3: four and a half hour interview with Jim Garrison, but
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 3: apparently it was enough for Garrison to lay off of
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 3: him and Hall h because he continued to pursue Beckham.
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 3: He thought Beckham was full of shit and not telling
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 3: him stuff. But these guys, these two guys, he kind
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 3: of let slide for whatever reason.
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very interesting because't wasn't there some allegations regarding
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: Hall and Garrison and the things that were stolen out
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 1: of his apartment and and Wiseberg. I think there was
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: a whole a bunch of drama there.
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll get in more of that when we talk
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 3: about Hall. It was more on him at that time. NA.
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 3: So fast forward to June of nineteen seventy five. Okay,
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 3: this is pre HSCA. This is an FBI airtel to
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 3: Hoover from special Agent in charge in Buffalo, Okay. On
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 3: June twenty fourth, nineteen and seventy five, Joe Richard Monroe
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 3: Marginson of Webster Road, Wyoming County, New York, telephone number
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 3: blah blah blah was interviewed at his and he advised
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 3: as follows. Martinson is a whitey, white male cracker. Joe.
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 3: We called him down yeah. Born June sixteenth and twenty
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 3: seven at Rochester, New York. He attended four years of
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 3: high school, yet still received no high school diploma. He
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 3: completed a two year correspondence course in traffic management and
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 3: a one year correspondence course in law.
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 1: Traffic like car traffic.
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 3: I don't know, it's all it says. This correspondence course
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 3: in traffic management and one year in law correspondence course.
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 3: How'm a professional? He was previously employed as a canned
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 3: machine mechanic for TJ. Lipton Company and out Beyond New
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 3: York until he was laid off in October of seventy
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 3: four and has been unemployed since that time. However, Marginson
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 3: is a farmer and operates the farm at his residence
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 3: and breeds and raises poodles much like your dear little.
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 1: Ruby Ruby, Say Hi, Ruby, you're sleeping.
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 3: Marginson and his wife resided in Los Angeles, California, from
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 3: nineteen fifty through nineteen seventy two. In nineteen sixty, Marginson
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 3: secured a position as a material handler for the Recold
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 3: Corporation on Slawson What's Up Crip in Los Angeles. He
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 3: was residing on Trigg Street in East Los Angeles at
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 3: that time, which Marginson described as an area chiefly comprised
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 3: of Negroes and Mexicans. During nineteen sixty, and met the
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 3: Mexican Lawrence J. Howard Junior, who was a welder at
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 3: the Recold Corporation. So he's a coworker of Laurence Howard
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty Okay, at that time, he said that
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 3: Howard was in his late twenties or early thirties, was
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 3: approximately six feet in height, close to three hundred pounds,
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 3: large billed, black hair, brown eyes, medium complexion, and wore
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 3: a large a fu manshoe mustache. Certainly sounds like Larry right. Yeah.
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 3: Howard's residence was only a few blocks away from where
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 3: Marginson lived. Howard was married, and his wife, whose name
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 3: is unknown to Martinson, was a Mexican and was employed
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 3: by the telephone company. Also, Howard had a side piece
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 3: named Josephine last name unknown, who was a yes A Gumar,
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 3: who was also of Mexican heritage, and who lived only
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 3: a few blocks from Marginson as well, Bold Bold. During
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 3: most of nineteen sixty, the employees of Recold Corporation, where
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 3: the members of the United Auto Workers' Union Local, were
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 3: on strike. Howard was the leader of the Education Committee
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 3: of this union and Marginson was a member of the committee.
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 3: The striking employees were replaced by recol Corporation with some
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 3: scavs some out of state employees in order to maintain
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 3: the Recold Corporation's operations. Although Howard and Marginson devoted some
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 3: of their time to the union activities, both had ample
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 3: time to sit around and talk shit about camping, hunting guns,
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 3: and fast draw contests draw Because of their common employment,
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 3: and since they were both avid gun and hunting buffs,
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 3: Howard and Marginson spent a considerable amount of time together.
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 1: Wait, this is his Gumar.
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 3: No, this is Howard and Marginson. Okay, there was a
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 3: lot of publicity regarding Castro and QB at the time,
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 3: and it soon became common knowledge. Like I said, this
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 3: is in nineteen sixty. This is before he started with
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 3: the you know, the anti This is before Bay of
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 3: Pigs and all that shit. So this is this is before.
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 3: There was a lot of publicity regarding Castro and QBA
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 3: at the time, and it soon became common knowledge. In
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 3: this in the area where Marginson resided that recruiting efforts
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 3: were being made, particularly among Spanish speaking people, for volunteers
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 3: to organize into an anti Castro group. Howard became interested
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 3: in this anti Castro a movement and decided to become
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 3: involved in helping to recruit volunteers for the movement. Although
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 3: Marginson was spending most of his time researching possible lost
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 3: gold mines, he sometimes accompanied Howard in his recruiting efforts.
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 3: So shocker, the white guy is trying to find lost
• 1:50:24
  Speaker 3: gold mines.
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 1: A valiant effort.
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Howard and Marginson would drive around at night in
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 3: the areas where Cuban refugees were living in Los Angeles,
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 3: and attempt to recruit volunteers for an anti Castro group
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 3: at gas stations, parking lots, and other places where would congregate.
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 1: That would be that would be a great job, just
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 1: to be a fly.
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 3: On the wall for man. You know, you're trying to
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 3: get some guns and go shoot this motherfucker. What yeah,
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 3: you know? Like so, Martinson was unable to understand most
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 3: of these conversations because Howard was speaking to the Cubans
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 3: in Spanish and Martinson does not understand that language because
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 3: he's a kracko.
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 3: The purpose of these efforts was to recruit a volunteer
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 3: guerrilla army and raise funds to train and support this
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 3: army for an invasion into Cuba. Martinson commented that he
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 3: observed the volatile Latin temperament displayed by Howard, other Mexican
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 3: Americans and Cuban refugees, and this temperament possibly explains their
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 3: extreme emotions and connecting in connection with the anti Castro movement.
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 3: So he's seen all this stuff firsthand. He's seeing these
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 3: pissed off anti Castro Cubans, Mexicans and whoever else Latinos
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 3: that they're talking to. He's getting the sentiment from Howard
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 3: of you know, hatred and whatever's drying them to do this,
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 3: you know. So sometime during nineteen sixty one, Howard went
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 3: to Florida for the purpose of training volunteers for the
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 3: Gorilla Army, which was to invade Cuba. Howard seemed particularly
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 3: suited for this activity in view of his expertise in
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 3: handling firearms and knives. Howard told Marginson he had served
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 3: in the US Army and had received a medical discharge
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 3: because of an injury to his foot. Marginson had noticed
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 3: that Howard limped a little after he had been walking
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 3: for a long period of time. Marginson received the postcard
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 3: from Howard, and the postcard was from Marathon Key in
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 3: the Florida Keys. Howard mentioned Big Pine and Little Pine
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 3: as being nearby Marathon Key, and Marginson assumed that the
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 3: Gorilla warfare training was taking place in that area. So far,
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 3: everything checks out. You know, he's getting some facts right.
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 3: Howard returned to Law Angeles after several months, arriving sometime
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty two. Accompanying Howard was a man named
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 3: Rudy Hernandez, a white man of Mexican descent in his twenties.
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 3: Five foot two in a height big bastard shortcut uh
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 3: stock to build black hair, dark complexed. Also accompanying Howard
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 3: was a white male age mid twenties five eight to
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 3: five nine one sixty five slender build whom marginsonnon knew
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 3: only as Slim.
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 1: Where did Slim come up?
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 2: It was the uh.
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 1: Was it the guy we talked Andrew on Carrie Thornley?
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 1: The guy in New Orleans was named Slim. I probably
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 1: no relation, but yeah, I don't know.
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Howard resided with his wife in their home near
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 3: Marginson's residence, as we said, and Hernandez and Slim stayed
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 3: at somewhere called the Olive Hotel on Olive Street in
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 3: Los Angeles. Hernandez, Slim, and Marginson obtained employment painting and
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 3: referbing the old Union Temple building located behind the Los
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 3: Angeles Greyhound Bus station, which was supervised by a man
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 3: named Jack Casey. This building reportedly housed the Marquade Marquade
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 3: Printing Shop in the basement, which at that time was
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 3: engaged in printing the original draft of Richard Nixon's book.
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 3: After he lost the presidential election, Howard, Hernandez and Slim
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 3: began talking about a man called Techs who was coming
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 3: to Los Angeles from New Orleans. From their comments, Marginson
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 3: learned that Text was not involved in the gorilla training
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 3: in Florida, but that Text was apparently considered to be
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 3: a very important person by Martinson's friends. They indicated that
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 3: Texts was one of their people and implied that he
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 3: had something to do with a Cuban invasion. Howard had
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 3: mentioned that on his way back to Los Angeles from Florida,
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 3: he had driven a car from New Orleans to LA
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 3: for a company involved in dead heading or relocating cars.
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 3: In late sixty two or early sixty three, Text arrived
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 3: in Los Angeles and roomed with Hernandez and Slim at
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 3: the Olive Hotel. Martinson described Texts as a white male
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 3: again in his mid twenties or early thirties, five eight
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 3: to five nine in height, one fifty one, sixties, slender build,
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 3: brown hair, medium comp election. Marginson was curious about Text
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 3: because of the fuss made over him by his friends,
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 3: and prior to Texas's arrival, Martyrson approached Howard with a
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 3: suggestion of having Text to his home for dinner. Howard's
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 3: first reaction was one of reluctance, but eventually he conceded,
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 3: and when Text arrived, Marginson drove to the Olive Hotel
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 3: in order to take Text back to his house for dinner.
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 3: Marginson found that it was very difficult to make conversation
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 3: with Texts. Many times Text would not reply to a
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 3: question and generally had a very dull personality. Text told
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 3: Marginson that he had never been in the La area before.
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 3: In anticipation of introducing Text to his wife, Margyson asked
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 3: Texts his name. At first, Text hesitated, but then told
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 3: Marginson his name. Although Margin is not positive, he believed
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 3: that Text gave the name of Lee, Harvey or Harvey Lee.
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 3: Marginson said he recalled these names through word association based
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 3: on the fact that he has a relative by the
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 3: name of Lee and another relative by the name of Harvey.
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 3: After eating a delicious home cooked meal, Text did not
• 1:57:12
  Speaker 3: even bother to thank Marginson or his wife. Texts also
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 3: began working in the Old Union Temple building with Hernandez,
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 3: Slim and Marginson. The supervisor of this work, Jack Casey,
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 3: was seldom on the job, and therefore Marginson and the
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 3: others spent only a small amount of their time actually
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 3: working with most of their time being devoted to bull sessions.
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 3: Text gave the impression that he was a rough and
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 3: tumble type person who liked the idea of guerrilla type warfare. However,
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 3: Marginson was told by the others that Texts had received
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 3: an undesirable or bad conduct discharge from the military. Martinson
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 3: did not hold this against Texts, since Marginson Rezi received
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 3: a bad conduct discharge from the military. Texts frequently talked
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 3: about making big money, and his schemes usually involved violence.
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 3: As an example, Martinson recalled text talking about a guerrilla
• 1:58:09
  Speaker 3: tighte raid on a diamond mine in Peru, which everyone
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 3: in the mind would be killed and a fortune in
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 3: diamonds would be seized. Texts mentioned something about a fifty
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 3: thousand dollars reward for Castro's head. One of Texas peculiarities
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 3: was determining how quickly he could get from the top
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 3: of the building in which they were working to the lobby,
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 3: and he would frequently challenge someone to a race. Sound familiar.
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 3: Let's see how fast when you get from the top
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 3: floor to the bottom floor. Martinson said he did not
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 3: know how Texts got from the top of the building
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 3: to the lobby because they took different routes in their races,
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 3: but he thought Texts might be sliding down the elevator cables.
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 3: In one of their bull sessions, Martinson's asked Texts if
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 3: he and his group had any contact with the CIA.
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 3: In response, text took a scrap of paper out of
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 3: his wallet and showed it to him. This scrap of
• 1:59:05
  Speaker 3: paper had a name and telephone number on it. Martinson
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 3: cannot recall the name, but remembers that it was the
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 3: name of a prominent family in the South Texas purpose
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 3: in showing Martinson this name was to show Martyrsan that
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 3: he had connections with important people. Tex stayed for about
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 3: one month and then left the LA area, not indicating
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 3: where he was going, and Martinson never heard from Texts again.
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 3: Hernandez and Slim left at the same time, but Martinson
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 3: does not know if they left together. During the time
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 3: that Martinson and the others were working at the Old
• 1:59:39
  Speaker 3: Union Temple, Howard never came to that building, and Martinson
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 3: got the impression that Howard intentionally avoided being seen with
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 3: that group at that building, but Martinson did not know
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 3: the reason. Now after the Bay of Pigs incident, Marginson
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 3: asked Howard what he intended to do since the Cuban
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 3: invasion had failed. Although Howard had never made any statements,
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 3: Martinson felt Howard implied that he or someone associated with
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 3: the anti Castro movement intended to do something very spectacular
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 3: and to blame it on Castro. This incident was to
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 3: be so horrendous as to put the United States government
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 3: in such a position that they would be forced to
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 3: openly invade Cuba. Now here's where it gets good. Around
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 3: October of sixty three, Marginson moved from Trigg Street to
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 3: East fifty third Street from La to Maywood, California, and
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 3: he lost contact with Howard. Now at that time, Howard
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 3: was working for a trailer manufacturer on Whittier Boulevard in La.
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 3: Marginson saw Howard's name and address in the La Times
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 3: and connection with Howard being subpoenaed by a former district
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 3: attorney Garrison in New Orleans. Martinson and his wife drove
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 3: to this address, which he believes was in San Gabriel
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 3: or South San Gabriel, in order to see Howard and
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 3: talk over old times. Martinson recalled that Howard resided near
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 3: Rosemead Boulevard when Martinson and his wife arrived at Howard's residence.
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 3: There was a truck camper parked in the driveway with
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 3: a Cadillac park behind it. Martinson rang the doorbell and
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 3: could hear voices inside to the partially opened front door.
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 3: Howard came to the door with an automatic pistol in
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 3: his hand. Joe looking out of the door cautiously to
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 3: see who was knocking on his door. When Howard recognized me,
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 3: he told me he was busy at the moment and
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 3: asked me to return in about an hour. So when
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 3: Martinson returned in an hour, Howard again came to the
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 3: door with a pistol in his hand. Howard then put
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 3: the pistol in his belt and invited Martinson inside. During
• 2:01:57
  Speaker 3: the time they were talking, Martus noted that Margins and
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 3: noted that there was another pistol on the telephone stand
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 3: near the sofa, and Howard indicated during their discussion that
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 3: he had seven loaded guns in his house. Yeah, he's
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 3: not that's it sounds exactly the type of shit that
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 3: he did with LJ. Delsa, right exactly. Howard told Martinson
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 3: that things were a little tough since he had been
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 3: subpoena to testify in New Orleans. He showed Marginson and
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 3: noenvelope and said it contained his airplane tickets to New
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 3: Orleans and a letter from Garrison. Martinson asked Howard if
• 2:02:35
  Speaker 3: he were going to go to New Orleans to testify,
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 3: and Howard answered that the man who had just been
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 3: at his home who was driving the Cadillac was his
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 3: attorney and that he had been taking Howard's deposition so
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 3: that Howard would not have to go testify. Howard said
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 3: that if he were to go to New Orleans that
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 3: they might have to that they might lock him up
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 3: and lose the key. Howard told Marginson that his wife
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 3: and two daughters were staying with his mother and that
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 3: he was staying in his home alone because he feared
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 3: for their lives. Howard commented that he did not know
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 3: who could be an enemy and that he had to
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 3: be very cautious at this time. Martinson commented that Howard
• 2:03:15
  Speaker 3: was not the kind of person who ever seemed to
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 3: be afraid of anything, but that he appeared very frightened
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 3: at that time. Martinson believed that this visit took place
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty eight. After this visit Martinson lost contact
• 2:03:28
  Speaker 3: with Howard. Martinson stated that he subsequently observed a great
• 2:03:32
  Speaker 3: deal of national publicity in the various media concerning the
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 3: arrest of Howard and five other individuals in a thirty
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 3: eight foot boat off the Florida coast for a violation
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 3: of the Neutrality Act. The names of the other five
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 3: individuals were Cuban names. Howard was in possession of a
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 3: seven millimeter or thirty two caliber Browning automatic pistol that
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 3: Martinson had previously sold to Howard. Martinson's curiosity concerning the
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 3: activity is Howard Hernandez slim and text was aroused when
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 3: the Watergate incident was receiving so much publicity. Martinson speculated
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 3: that Howard, who always described himself as a soldier of fortune,
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 3: must have been involved in President Kennedy's assassination, and that
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 3: this was the incident Howard meant when he referred to
• 2:04:18
  Speaker 3: something that would force the United States to invade Cuba.
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 3: Martisan also speculated that Howard must have known E. Howard Hunt,
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 3: because Hunt spent time in Florida when he was with
• 2:04:30
  Speaker 3: the CIA, and that Hunt would have known anyone such
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 3: as Howard who was involved in training guerrillas for a
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 3: possible invasion of Cuba. Martinson stated that he does not
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 3: actually have any information that would connect Howard or any
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 3: of Howard's friends with the assassination of Kennedy. He explained
• 2:04:52
  Speaker 3: that he had lost a lot of free time since
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 3: he lost his job in October seventy four, and then
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 3: he started thinking about these matters in formulating his own theories.
• 2:05:02
  Speaker 3: He said that his memory had become somewhat hazy and
• 2:05:06
  Speaker 3: that he is uncertain as the names and dates and
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 3: other information. It was pointed out to Martinson that some
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 3: of the information he had furnished was contradictory to that
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 3: furnished by Sheriff Alan Capwell, as related by Capwell as
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 3: having been told to him by Martinson earlier. Martinson stated
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 3: that his only explanation is that Sheriff Capwell must have
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 3: misunderstood what he was saying. It is noted that Martinson's
• 2:05:30
  Speaker 3: home has the appearance of a one room shack and
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 3: was in a disorderly condition. Martinson was contacted at approximately
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 3: eight fifteen am and still had not woken up. Although
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 3: Martinson speaks relatively well, he appears a confused fact with
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 3: his own theories. Dallas Los Angeles and New Orleans evaluate
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 3: results of the above interview and advised the bureau. So
• 2:05:54
  Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy five he took it upon himself to
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 3: contact the FBI and relate this information. Of course, this
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 3: is you know, ten fifteen years after the fact, So
• 2:06:07
  Speaker 3: you are going to forget some things, you are things
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 3: might be starting to get a little hazy for you,
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 3: depending on your lifestyle, you know, things like that. There's
• 2:06:17
  Speaker 3: some things in here that you might just be like, Okay,
• 2:06:20
  Speaker 3: this is a lot, but then some things perk you
• 2:06:23
  Speaker 3: up and say, okay, well this sounds legit, right. So
• 2:06:37
  Speaker 3: during the HSCA Betsy Palmer, who was an investigator I
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 3: believe from the HCA, reviewed portions of files at the
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 3: FBI on Thursday October twenty at nineteen seventy seven. They
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 3: related to Lawrence J. Howard Jr. The documents I saw
• 2:06:58
  Speaker 3: are as follows, and she lists all of them, with
• 2:07:01
  Speaker 3: the exception of two documents. All the material on Lawrence
• 2:07:04
  Speaker 3: Howard Junior was either known to us or of such
• 2:07:07
  Speaker 3: little value that a review of the foul contents is
• 2:07:10
  Speaker 3: not warranted. The material was gathered largely in relation to
• 2:07:13
  Speaker 3: the Garrison investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy. New
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 3: info on Howard was supplied and documents seven p. One
• 2:07:20
  Speaker 3: eight nine, Section one seventy nine. A synopsis follows. FBI
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 3: me went to a director from Buffalo. Dated April seventy five,
• 2:07:29
  Speaker 3: Sheriff Alan Capwell came to the Buffalo FBI to relate
• 2:07:35
  Speaker 3: the following information obtained from Richard Marginson. So now we're
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 3: going to see what Capwell told him the FBI that
• 2:07:42
  Speaker 3: was maybe a little different than what Marginson told the FBI.
• 2:07:50
  Speaker 3: Margins stated that he was living in Los Angeles in
• 2:07:52
  Speaker 3: nineteen sixty two and met Lawrence Howard, who was collecting
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 3: funds for anti Castro forces. Howard went to the Key
• 2:08:00
  Speaker 3: for six months and returned in late sixty two with
• 2:08:02
  Speaker 3: Rudy Hernandez and Unsubbed aka Slim, a white male five
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 3: eighty five nine in his twenties. All were employed by
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 3: Jack Casey to paint and refer of the Old Union Temple.
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 3: Through these people, Martins has met a man named Text
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 3: who arrived from New Orleans in late sixty two or
• 2:08:22
  Speaker 3: early sixty three. He described him as a hitman in
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 3: his late twenties five sixty five nine slender one thirty
• 2:08:30
  Speaker 3: five pounds, former military and rotten disposition. He furnished his
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 3: name as Lee Harvey. Martinson came forward with this information
• 2:08:39
  Speaker 3: after seeing a TV documentary regarding the Warrant Commission, which
• 2:08:43
  Speaker 3: said Oswald was in Russia in sixty two of sixty three,
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 3: which of course he wasn't in Russia in sixty three, Yeah,
• 2:08:52
  Speaker 3: and sixty two, Yeah, mass down in June. Yeah, yeah,
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 3: what what does this guy? Sounds like? Joe? Of course
• 2:09:04
  Speaker 3: it's obviously not the real Lee Harvey Oswald, right, because
• 2:09:08
  Speaker 3: we know where he was at this time, but it
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 3: could be a person Crayford, California, could be a person
• 2:09:21
  Speaker 3: impersonating Oswald, as it sounds a lot like the visit
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 3: the visitor to the odios mm hm. Remember how they
• 2:09:30
  Speaker 3: described him as very brash and loud mouthed, Yeah you
• 2:09:35
  Speaker 3: know what I mean mm hm, and said, you know,
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 3: basically that he's identified himself as Lee Harvey, which is odd,
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 3: but former marine, you know, same deal, And it sounds
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 3: like the same guy that that the odeo has meant
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 3: in the company of Howard and Whole. Yeah, let's see.
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 3: Additional information on Howard was obtained in file sixty two
• 2:10:12
  Speaker 3: dash whatever it involves an interview with Richard Lubick after
• 2:10:16
  Speaker 3: the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy. Lubick was closely associated
• 2:10:21
  Speaker 3: with Kennedy during the California primary and traveled with him.
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 3: The interview with Lubick was conducted on June twenty fifth,
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 3: sixty eight. RFK was assassinated on June fourth, sixty eight.
• 2:10:33
  Speaker 3: Lubick states that Stephen Jaffey, of Jim Garrison's staff, contacted
• 2:10:37
  Speaker 3: him in May of sixty eight, trying to arrange a
• 2:10:41
  Speaker 3: meeting between Garrison and Kennedy, the purpose of which was
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 3: for Garrison to warn Kennedy of a possible attempt on
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 3: his life. Lubick worked through Frank Menkowitz to set up
• 2:10:50
  Speaker 3: the meeting, but Mancowitz later reported that RFK was not
• 2:10:53
  Speaker 3: interested in meeting with Garrison. The FBI report to the
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 3: Director from Sac Los Ange was titled Kin Salt. According
• 2:11:04
  Speaker 3: to Lubick, Stephen Jaffey related a conspiracy story to Lubeck,
• 2:11:09
  Speaker 3: who in turn asked him to repeat the information to
• 2:11:11
  Speaker 3: Ron Buck, a La attorney and partner of Pierre Salinger
• 2:11:15
  Speaker 3: in the operation of the factory and nightclub in Los Angeles.
• 2:11:20
  Speaker 3: Jeaffey claimed that the committee had placed ten million dollars
• 2:11:24
  Speaker 3: in the hands of a secondary group to locate appropriate
• 2:11:27
  Speaker 3: individuals to carry out the assassination of John F. Kennedy.
• 2:11:31
  Speaker 3: He claims Edgar Eugene Bradley and Lawrence Howard were members
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 3: of this group. According to Jaffe, Jimmy Garrison claims the committee,
• 2:11:40
  Speaker 3: or as Beckham calls him, the organization is composed of
• 2:11:50
  Speaker 3: National States Rights Party members, anti Castro Cubans, oil depletion
• 2:11:55
  Speaker 3: interests in persons, opposed to the US policy of approachment
• 2:11:59
  Speaker 3: with the Communist This conspiracy story of Jaffies is similar
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 3: to the one this committee had received from Leila Hurtado,
• 2:12:07
  Speaker 3: also known as Libra. Ron Buck figures prominently in the
• 2:12:13
  Speaker 3: Libra claims of a conspiracy. Jeffe and Hurtado's reliability need
• 2:12:17
  Speaker 3: to be checked if there's any interest in pursuing this angle.
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 3: I also found an interest in section one oh five
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 3: eight two five five, dealing with Don Haley of the
• 2:12:28
  Speaker 3: National Inquirer, who was seeking information about Sylvia Odio incident.
• 2:12:32
  Speaker 3: This document had a notation that a five page memo
• 2:12:36
  Speaker 3: designated top secret Third Agency had been destroyed. Now according
• 2:12:46
  Speaker 3: to Jerry Hemming. Both Howard and Hall met with Lee
• 2:12:50
  Speaker 3: Harvey Oswell in Texas while en route to Florida prior
• 2:12:53
  Speaker 3: to the JFK assassination. So this is coming from Hemming,
• 2:12:57
  Speaker 3: so take it with a grain of salt. Will. After
• 2:13:01
  Speaker 3: President Kennedy was killed, Heming related to Source that he
• 2:13:06
  Speaker 3: felt the assassination was a CIA plot to do away
• 2:13:09
  Speaker 3: with Kennedy, since Howard and Hall were believed to have
• 2:13:11
  Speaker 3: been connected in some way with the CIA. Source, at
• 2:13:15
  Speaker 3: a later date confronted Howard with the question concerning his
• 2:13:19
  Speaker 3: part in the alleged connection with the Kennedy assassination, and
• 2:13:22
  Speaker 3: Howard clammed up and became nervous concerning the matter and
• 2:13:26
  Speaker 3: avoided talking about the subject entirely. And a letter from
• 2:13:34
  Speaker 3: Thomas Bethel to Edward j Epstein in July of sixty
• 2:13:39
  Speaker 3: seven says this, we were recently paid an unannounced visit
• 2:13:44
  Speaker 3: by two Americans who were intimately connected with Cuban exile
• 2:13:47
  Speaker 3: groups in the summer of sixty three one. A Jerry
• 2:13:51
  Speaker 3: Patrick Hemming was even dressed in fatigues. The main purpose
• 2:13:54
  Speaker 3: of the visit seemed to be to point an authoritative
• 2:13:58
  Speaker 3: finger of suspicion at Hall, Howard and Seymour to an
• 2:14:02
  Speaker 3: extent that we began to wonder if they knew that
• 2:14:05
  Speaker 3: others were involved and were trying to protect them. Jerry
• 2:14:08
  Speaker 3: Patrick told me the following story, which I thought might
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 3: interest you. According to Patrick, he usually drops to hemming.
• 2:14:16
  Speaker 3: There were in nineteen sixty three numerous teams with paramilitary
• 2:14:21
  Speaker 3: inclinations out to Quote get Kennedy. Some of these teams
• 2:14:26
  Speaker 3: had been approached by wealthy entrepreneurs of the h L
• 2:14:30
  Speaker 3: Hunt type Joe, who were interested in seeing the job
• 2:14:37
  Speaker 3: done and even provided financial assistance. Then, on November twenty second,
• 2:14:42
  Speaker 3: Kennedy is shot down on the streets, and then for
• 2:14:47
  Speaker 3: two years or so they're the story rests. However, since
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 3: all the mounting controversy of the last twelve months, a
• 2:14:54
  Speaker 3: startling new development has occurred. According to Patrick. Recently, members
• 2:14:58
  Speaker 3: of the Quote team have been returning to their sponsors,
• 2:15:03
  Speaker 3: taking credit for the assassination and asking for money at
• 2:15:10
  Speaker 3: the same time, requesting well large additional sums of money
• 2:15:13
  Speaker 3: so that they won't be tempted to talk about it
• 2:15:16
  Speaker 3: to anyone. In turn, the sponsors have apparently been hiring
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 3: mafia figures to rid themselves of these blackmailers. Jerry Patrick
• 2:15:29
  Speaker 3: admitted that his own association with some of these extremist
• 2:15:32
  Speaker 3: groups in sixty three have recently been causing him a
• 2:15:35
  Speaker 3: little concern. Incidentally, this may very well be the true
• 2:15:39
  Speaker 3: story behind the Elatier deval Eladio del Value murders in Miami,
• 2:15:45
  Speaker 3: reported this spring in the National Enquirer and in this
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 3: a John Keelan review of Noel Twyman's book, Bloody Treason,
• 2:15:56
  Speaker 3: Chapter twenty seven is a long account of the author's
• 2:15:59
  Speaker 3: interviews with an analysis of Jerry Patrick Heming. Heming is
• 2:16:04
  Speaker 3: a figure whose exact times of the case have always
• 2:16:07
  Speaker 3: been unclear to me. But this is a fine example
• 2:16:10
  Speaker 3: of Bloody Treason being loaded with, if not new evidence,
• 2:16:13
  Speaker 3: at least a lot of information that has not been
• 2:16:15
  Speaker 3: brought together like this before as far as I know.
• 2:16:19
  Speaker 3: Twyman says that unnamed quote, prominent researchers had warned him
• 2:16:22
  Speaker 3: not to take him in seriously or Bloody Treason would
• 2:16:26
  Speaker 3: be completely discredited. But I am glad he did take
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 3: him seriously, going so far as to meet with him
• 2:16:32
  Speaker 3: on a number of occasions and probe his story in depth.
• 2:16:36
  Speaker 3: Heming is mentioned throughout the assassination literature. The author feels
• 2:16:40
  Speaker 3: in much of Heming's background he performed a paramilitary group
• 2:16:43
  Speaker 3: as a teenager, and demonstrates now how his later activities,
• 2:16:47
  Speaker 3: specifically his group Enter Penned, may have been involved in
• 2:16:51
  Speaker 3: the jfk assassination plot or plots. Heming comes across as
• 2:16:57
  Speaker 3: very credible in these pages. Now. The reason I bring
• 2:17:01
  Speaker 3: up Hemming and he's not really a prime suspect as
• 2:17:06
  Speaker 3: being operational in Daly Plaza of course, because we cannot
• 2:17:09
  Speaker 3: put Jerry Patrick Heming in Deally Plaza in November on
• 2:17:15
  Speaker 3: the twenty second of nineteen sixty three. But he was
• 2:17:20
  Speaker 3: definitely in a position to hear about and know about
• 2:17:27
  Speaker 3: his cohorts doing these things. Yeah, and when you know information,
• 2:17:37
  Speaker 3: it's almost as bad as having actually been there yourself.
• 2:17:42
  Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying, And we know how Hemming operates.
• 2:17:47
  Speaker 3: He sprinkles truth in with a lot of bullshit. Right. Yes,
• 2:17:53
  Speaker 3: while he never actually came out and said the actual true,
• 2:18:00
  Speaker 3: at least we don't know if he did, he did
• 2:18:03
  Speaker 3: allude to certain things over time, right, So you know,
• 2:18:09
  Speaker 3: I would highly recommend bloody treason. Someone would have talked
• 2:18:13
  Speaker 3: if you want to learn a lot more about the
• 2:18:16
  Speaker 3: real story of these real hardcore operator, mercenary soldiers of
• 2:18:24
  Speaker 3: fortune types that you can actually put in Dallas in
• 2:18:31
  Speaker 3: November of nineteen sixty three and given the broad spectrum
• 2:18:38
  Speaker 3: of all of the pieces of the puzzle, you know
• 2:18:43
  Speaker 3: that go along with these guys that put them in
• 2:18:46
  Speaker 3: the position to do something, actually do something. You know,
• 2:18:53
  Speaker 3: you hear reports of daily plaza, you hear reports of
• 2:19:01
  Speaker 3: a shot from the Knowle or from the South Knole
• 2:19:05
  Speaker 3: or the overpass area or the doll Text building. There's
• 2:19:10
  Speaker 3: lots of places for these people to be the roof
• 2:19:12
  Speaker 3: of the Dallas County Records Building. It would take a
• 2:19:20
  Speaker 3: operational team of folks, a very tight knit group of operators.
• 2:19:26
  Speaker 1: That can trust, that have worked together before. Right, Yes,
• 2:19:32
  Speaker 1: this wasn't their first.
• 2:19:33
  Speaker 3: Operation together, right, Because going into something like this, of course,
• 2:19:37
  Speaker 3: the object is to a get the job done be
• 2:19:45
  Speaker 3: not get caught doing it. Okay, So you have to
• 2:19:49
  Speaker 3: formulate a very specific plan and to ensure that that
• 2:19:54
  Speaker 3: doesn't happen, right, and you have to have very very
• 2:20:02
  Speaker 3: good minded people in this type of thing. You know,
• 2:20:07
  Speaker 3: this caught Dallas off guard. This caught the DPD off guard,
• 2:20:11
  Speaker 3: This caught the secret service off guard. So when you
• 2:20:15
  Speaker 3: when you catch people off guard, it often often leads
• 2:20:18
  Speaker 3: to a lot of mistakes, you know, but we do
• 2:20:21
  Speaker 3: have indications of movement and people being behind the fence,
• 2:20:28
  Speaker 3: you know, back in the rail yard. Who if you
• 2:20:31
  Speaker 3: can believe what they say, you know, you have a
• 2:20:34
  Speaker 3: spotter and you have a shooter, and you know the shooter,
• 2:20:40
  Speaker 3: you know, tosses the rifle to the spotter, breaks it
• 2:20:43
  Speaker 3: down thus in the trunk, or puts it somewhere, and
• 2:20:46
  Speaker 3: they're ghosts at that point, you know what I mean,
• 2:20:49
  Speaker 3: And you formulate a plan that allows you to get
• 2:20:54
  Speaker 3: away scott free, whether you're coming down off the sixth
• 2:20:58
  Speaker 3: floor of the of the school Book Depository, whether you're
• 2:21:01
  Speaker 3: coming down out of the dal Text Building, or whether
• 2:21:04
  Speaker 3: you're coming down off the roof of the Dallas County
• 2:21:06
  Speaker 3: Records Building, whatever the case may be. You know, it's
• 2:21:11
  Speaker 3: not like we just heard. I mean, there's plenty of
• 2:21:14
  Speaker 3: witnesses who say they heard three, four, five shots in
• 2:21:18
  Speaker 3: Dealey Plaza, you know, Orville Nicks that he heard four
• 2:21:21
  Speaker 3: or five shots. And from just viewing this a Pruder film,
• 2:21:28
  Speaker 3: you know, I think everybody's pretty clear that at least
• 2:21:31
  Speaker 3: one of those shots came from the front. So when
• 2:21:36
  Speaker 3: you put all of these things together, who could plan this,
• 2:21:39
  Speaker 3: who could pull it off, who would actually do it,
• 2:21:43
  Speaker 3: who could actually get away with doing it? And managed
• 2:21:46
  Speaker 3: to keep their mouths shut right for the most part,
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 3: except for the ones who maybe tried blackmailing didn't work
• 2:21:55
  Speaker 3: out so well for them. But you know, there was
• 2:21:59
  Speaker 3: a lot of this stuff on back then. So that
• 2:22:01
  Speaker 3: is just two of the folks we wanted to focus
• 2:22:04
  Speaker 3: on here this evening for our Operational and Daly Plaza
• 2:22:09
  Speaker 3: series Part one. Of course, we'll have part two next
• 2:22:13
  Speaker 3: week where we will continue our examination of who we
• 2:22:17
  Speaker 3: think were some of the prime movers and shakers in
• 2:22:22
  Speaker 3: Daly Plaza. Ain't I right, Joe?
• 2:22:28
  Speaker 1: That is right, sir? That is correct? And yeah, I
• 2:22:31
  Speaker 1: mean I think the key point here is is who
• 2:22:35
  Speaker 1: what of these suspects are operational? We're operational and which
• 2:22:41
  Speaker 1: we're in and around Dallas uh in November late November
• 2:22:46
  Speaker 1: sixty three. And you know, it's it's easy to put
• 2:22:50
  Speaker 1: a lot of people there based on this or that
• 2:22:53
  Speaker 1: or one persons statement, but you really have to look
• 2:22:56
  Speaker 1: through the documents and look at what these people were doing.
• 2:23:01
  Speaker 1: Were they risking their lives on a monthly basis to
• 2:23:04
  Speaker 1: increasey shit. You know, feleet vet Out. Santiago was killed
• 2:23:09
  Speaker 1: four or five months after the assassination, assassinated by Castro
• 2:23:14
  Speaker 1: a firing squad after his failed raid in Cuba. You know,
• 2:23:18
  Speaker 1: these are the type of people that would take the risk,
• 2:23:23
  Speaker 1: which is I don't want to say it's a quite
• 2:23:25
  Speaker 1: suicide mission, but it's close. You have to be really ideal,
• 2:23:31
  Speaker 1: you know, you have to be like really like gun
• 2:23:35
  Speaker 1: ho about the ideology you really do.
• 2:23:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And to tie this back, you know, I've always said,
• 2:23:43
  Speaker 3: you know, you got to think about Dallas and New
• 2:23:46
  Speaker 3: Orleans as separate entities. You have to somehow figure out
• 2:23:52
  Speaker 3: what was going on in New Orleans with Oswald and
• 2:23:55
  Speaker 3: somehow tied to Dallas. And as you heard tonight, sometimes
• 2:24:02
  Speaker 3: you can tie it to Dallas. You know, if these
• 2:24:06
  Speaker 3: guys were hanging around, I mean, we know they were
• 2:24:09
  Speaker 3: driving through New Orleans for sure. You get from Dallas
• 2:24:12
  Speaker 3: to Florida. Now if they're stopping there as well, and
• 2:24:16
  Speaker 3: they're interacting with other anti Castro Cubans such as Sergio
• 2:24:21
  Speaker 3: Archasia Smith, who's of course close tight with David Ferry
• 2:24:25
  Speaker 3: and a guy Banister, right, and they needed to come
• 2:24:30
  Speaker 3: up with a plan, a good plan to get away
• 2:24:35
  Speaker 3: with this. Of course, you need somebody to take the
• 2:24:38
  Speaker 3: fall very quickly for this, and this, you know, the
• 2:24:46
  Speaker 3: setup of Oswald, of course, happened in New Orleans where
• 2:24:50
  Speaker 3: he was sheep dipped into being a pro Castro supporter
• 2:24:55
  Speaker 3: and you know, the whole aj Higdell nonsense and all that.
• 2:25:02
  Speaker 3: So that is an essential part of the plan. And
• 2:25:05
  Speaker 3: of course, you know, if these guys are sitting around
• 2:25:08
  Speaker 3: having a bull session and talking to Banister and Ferry,
• 2:25:11
  Speaker 3: they probably think, I got just the guy for you.
• 2:25:14
  Speaker 3: He's got the right background. He's already been passing out
• 2:25:18
  Speaker 3: all this literature for me to try to out all
• 2:25:20
  Speaker 3: these reds here in New Orleans. He's an idiot, he
• 2:25:24
  Speaker 3: won't even suspect the thing like money. And they figured
• 2:25:29
  Speaker 3: out a way to do it.
• 2:25:31
  Speaker 1: I want sends them to Mexico City.
• 2:25:34
  Speaker 3: And it just so happened that Oswald had the right
• 2:25:36
  Speaker 3: ties to the FBI the CIA, where they didn't want
• 2:25:41
  Speaker 3: anybody really looking too hard at this guy if he
• 2:25:45
  Speaker 3: was an FBI format if you did do something for
• 2:25:48
  Speaker 3: the CIA when it comes to you know, going to
• 2:25:51
  Speaker 3: Russia to be a false defector or anything like that.
• 2:25:54
  Speaker 3: You don't want people digging too much. And you've got
• 2:25:56
  Speaker 3: to remember who they put on the warrant commission, Alan Dullay,
• 2:26:01
  Speaker 3: former head of the CIA at the time that Oswald
• 2:26:07
  Speaker 3: was in Russia. He was a guy who knew where
• 2:26:11
  Speaker 3: the line was. You don't go below this line or
• 2:26:15
  Speaker 3: you start to find you start digging up these bones,
• 2:26:17
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean.
• 2:26:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think the plotters really crushed it with Oswalt,
• 2:26:25
  Speaker 1: picking Oswalt as a patsy because they literally made the
• 2:26:31
  Speaker 1: CIA and the FBI go into cover.
• 2:26:35
  Speaker 3: Your ass mode.
• 2:26:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a poison, black pill, poison pill, and
• 2:26:42
  Speaker 1: it was ingenious.
• 2:26:43
  Speaker 3: I have to say.
• 2:26:44
  Speaker 1: It was ingenious because the plotters knew that they would
• 2:26:48
  Speaker 1: have to cover up their relationship with Oswald, whether that
• 2:26:52
  Speaker 1: was witting or unwitting and h whatever.
• 2:26:57
  Speaker 3: You don't want to antagonize a war with Cuba.
• 2:27:03
  Speaker 1: Or give up your top operations in Mexico City and others, right.
• 2:27:08
  Speaker 3: Right, and taking watch in Cuba and Russia and Oswald,
• 2:27:12
  Speaker 3: and then you start uncovering all of this other stuff.
• 2:27:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there were a lot of reasons.
• 2:27:18
  Speaker 3: I need to know about it. And like I said before,
• 2:27:20
  Speaker 3: all of these documents, they never thought that these things
• 2:27:23
  Speaker 3: would ever see the light of day to be to
• 2:27:25
  Speaker 3: the average citizen, you know what I mean. This is
• 2:27:29
  Speaker 3: all for their benefit. And it's like we get a
• 2:27:31
  Speaker 3: chance to actually look and see what they were talking about.
• 2:27:34
  Speaker 3: And they were watching these guys heavily and down in Florida,
• 2:27:39
  Speaker 3: these Antichastric Cubans, and they were definitely using them. The
• 2:27:43
  Speaker 3: CIA was definitely using these guys. You know, they are cutouts,
• 2:27:48
  Speaker 3: They are what is the word I'm looking for here,
• 2:27:55
  Speaker 3: plausible deniability, right, you know you you know these guys
• 2:28:01
  Speaker 3: get caught doing this stuff. They don't have any verifiable
• 2:28:05
  Speaker 3: on paper relationship to the CIA at all. If they're
• 2:28:07
  Speaker 3: getting paid off the books, you know, it's all a
• 2:28:11
  Speaker 3: verbal thing, yeah, a cash thing. If that's what's happening.
• 2:28:17
  Speaker 3: You know, it's not going to be written down. You
• 2:28:23
  Speaker 3: know that, Hey, we're paying these guys to do this.
• 2:28:25
  Speaker 3: We know they were, They were funding these anti Castro
• 2:28:28
  Speaker 3: groups in New Orleans and Florida.
• 2:28:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you also have to have the issue of
• 2:28:34
  Speaker 1: CIA funding some of these groups and the FBI trying
• 2:28:37
  Speaker 1: to stop them or you know, a lot of the
• 2:28:41
  Speaker 1: the Neutrality Act things, so you have these different.
• 2:28:46
  Speaker 3: Uh well that's more of an overt thing, just so
• 2:28:49
  Speaker 3: that the government has deniability to say, look, we're trying
• 2:28:51
  Speaker 3: to stop these cowboys from doing this ship to you
• 2:28:55
  Speaker 3: guys from running down there and trying to start things
• 2:28:58
  Speaker 3: inadvertently start World War II three, But in actuality they're
• 2:29:01
  Speaker 3: funding them. You see what I'm saying.
• 2:29:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I think the goals of the different
• 2:29:06
  Speaker 1: agencies were different, right, The CIS would have been maybe
• 2:29:10
  Speaker 1: different than the FBIS who were maybe trying to stop it,
• 2:29:13
  Speaker 1: and the CI funding them. It's a whole mess of
• 2:29:18
  Speaker 1: different agendas and different agendas, like we talked about within
• 2:29:23
  Speaker 1: the exile and mercenary and Soldier of Fortune groups too,
• 2:29:30
  Speaker 1: everyone had their own agendas, so which agendas kind of
• 2:29:34
  Speaker 1: came together? And I think two of the prime suspects
• 2:29:38
  Speaker 1: that Rob and I talked about today, we could definitely
• 2:29:42
  Speaker 1: make a good case for, you know, having their own
• 2:29:46
  Speaker 1: agenda but also kind of nudge combining with other agendas
• 2:29:54
  Speaker 1: of different agencies. It's extremely complicated, and that's why this
• 2:29:58
  Speaker 1: is continues to to be one of the most intriguing
• 2:30:02
  Speaker 1: murder mysteries that there is.
• 2:30:05
  Speaker 3: But absolutely Oh, sorry for the long ass show tonight,
• 2:30:10
  Speaker 3: but it's a lot of information. Why this is part
• 2:30:14
  Speaker 3: of one.
• 2:30:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, imagine if we did part two it would be
• 2:30:16
  Speaker 1: like five hours.
• 2:30:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we only did two guys a night. I mean,
• 2:30:19
  Speaker 3: come on, So that's gonna do it for tonight. I
• 2:30:24
  Speaker 3: guess next Wednesday. Of course, the previous show, you already
• 2:30:28
  Speaker 3: know what we're gonna talk about. So I'm guessing Joe,
• 2:30:31
  Speaker 3: we're gonna do something else for the members only streamlink
• 2:30:35
  Speaker 3: next week. I don't know what yet, but it'll definitely
• 2:30:39
  Speaker 3: be something that always is something.
• 2:30:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we yap like six barbers. I think
• 2:30:47
  Speaker 1: we had like an hour twenty minutes this past Wednesday.
• 2:30:49
  Speaker 1: Last Wednesday was like two plus hours. It's definitely worth
• 2:30:54
  Speaker 1: your your while if you'd like to hear us yap
• 2:30:59
  Speaker 1: like six barbers. And we definitely give thanks to all
• 2:31:02
  Speaker 1: our supporters and members, Covert Operators, Spooks and the other
• 2:31:08
  Speaker 1: one Superspies.
• 2:31:12
  Speaker 3: If you haven't yet you'd like to be a part
• 2:31:13
  Speaker 3: of those extra shows, click the joint button down below
• 2:31:17
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• 2:31:20
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• 2:31:23
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• 2:31:26
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• 2:31:32
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  Speaker 3: get through this first because you know, we've been hitting
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  Speaker 3: guests after guests after guests after guests after guests for
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• 2:31:43
  Speaker 3: little bit. We need to talk to Joe, so yeah,
• 2:31:50
  Speaker 3: so yeah, join us Wednesday. We'll have another banger for you.
• 2:31:55
  Speaker 3: And unfortunately, Joe, there is no way to play video
• 2:32:01
  Speaker 3: here unless I do it from the browser, So I've
• 2:32:07
  Speaker 3: created a workaround. Okay, it's minus the video, but I
• 2:32:12
  Speaker 3: do have the audio, so.
• 2:32:16
  Speaker 1: They get to look at us dance like fools.
• 2:32:19
  Speaker 3: Yes, normally you can only see our hands as we dance,
• 2:32:22
  Speaker 3: maybe occasionally a face, but anyway, thanks for hanging out
• 2:32:28
  Speaker 3: with us. Always a blast as usual. We hope you
• 2:32:32
  Speaker 3: enjoyed it and we'll see you next week. Poppy Poodles,
• 2:32:45
  Speaker 3: Power and Turkey, Greece and some Keishah.
• 2:33:15
  Speaker 12: The greatest name of Truth, the greatest crimes are committed
• 2:33:19
  Speaker 12: in the name of justice. The quotation is Jim Garrison's.
• 2:33:22
  Speaker 12: It could be used for him or against him. In
• 2:33:25
  Speaker 12: this strange case, good night, h
• 2:33:39
  Speaker 13: M hm hm hm hm hm