Latest / The Overland Journal Podcast / Stefano Melgrati on minimalist ADV overlanding and the joys of connection

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Stefano Melgrati on minimalist ADV overlanding and the joys of connection · The Overland Journal Podcast

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I am
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: your host, Scott Brady, and my special guest today is
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Stefano Melgrotti. Stefano is a great friend of mine and
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: we even use the same barber. But I ran into
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Stefano while I was doing a motorcycle trip down Baja Mexico,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: and he was on his way having ridden the entire
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: length of Africa and then come up the entire length
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: of the Americas, and we just happened to come across
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: each other in a taco stand in Mexico. But in
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: our conversation today, we talk about his trip around the world,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: and we talk about his time working as a reporter
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: in conflict zones, and we also talk about how he
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: funds his adventures. He's a professional architect, and he talks
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: about how he's able to save and then travel the
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: world and traveling around the world, as Steffano says, the
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: more time one spends traveling, the richer one gets. This
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: content is brought to you by Overland Journal, our premium
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: quality print publication. The magazine was founded in two thousand
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: and six with the goal of providing independent equipment and
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: vehicle reviews along with the most stunning adventures and photography.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: We care deeply about the countries and cultures we visit
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: and share our experiences freely with our readers. We also
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: have zero averatorial policy and do not accept any advertiser
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: compensation for our reviews. By subscribing to Overland Journal, you're
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: helping to support our employee owned and veteran owned publication.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Your support also provides resources and funding for content like
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: you are watching or listening to right now. You can
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: subscribe directly on our website at Overland Journal dot com. Stefano,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for being on the podcast today. Man,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: it is so great to see you. It's been now
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: at least three years since we've we've seen each other.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm moving to four years.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, unbelievable, unbelievable. And I think the story of how
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: we first met is just such a fun one, and
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: I think you should tell it because I've told this
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: story many times, because you know, you're you're one of
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: those people that you have this infectious enthusiasm for life
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: and and it's just it's something that I respect so
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: deeply about you and I adore about you as a friend.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: And it was that initial meeting that we had where
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: I was able to see your enthusiasm not only for
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: life but for travel. So maybe you tell the story
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: of how you were, how you remember us bumping into
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: each other, set.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Of the story. But first of all, I'm also very
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: happy to hear the timing that made it possible is
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: beautiful because of us traveling through the United States and
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: with a very little notice. I asked if it would
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: be in town. I did match perfectly because now you're
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: living for.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: I am exactly. It was just the perfect day you
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: were going to be here, and how fun to have
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: you on the podcast.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: So totally surprise, taken aback almost the first time that
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: I do anything like this, So it all excited.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you'll do so good, You'll do so.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: So my side of how we met myself of the story,
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: it actually starts even with some sort of caution, and
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: I'll explain what I mean traveling through back California with motorcycle,
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: and I was already on my probably fifteen plus months
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: on the road and hearing what I say here. I
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: mean in where we met in back California, I came
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: across many very well equipped people from the States that
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: gave me the impressions sometimes to be say this, to
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: have a mouth bigger than what, but not because of
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: being from the States. I mean, I understand I had
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: the impressions. Sometimes people would think that purchasing the equipment
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: for adventure meant actually acquiring the experience that comes with
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: the tracker. And so when I saw that I was
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: driving along this route, I saw a taco stand. I
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: was very hungry. I usually back then had one hot
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: meal a day and that would be my hot meal
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: for the day. And I saw this bunch of very
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: well equipped, good motorcycles. My very initial reaction, I don't
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: know if I ever told you this was I'll just
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: go ahead and not stop here, because I basically didn't
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: want to hear for another time that was I was
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: under equipped to do the traveler, so sometimes I was
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: a little tiring to how to say no, no, you can
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: actually do it. Don't worry, I'm not going to die tonight.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: And so my initial reaction was I'll just go to
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: the next sakustent. But this was the first Dukastan that
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: I had seen the whole morning, so I wasn't sure
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: how many more I would find. So it would stuff anyway,
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: and that was probably the best decision ever because from
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: that it came the friendship with you and many so
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: many other people. Yes, Kurt was also there, Chris forgett
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: that's right, and uh, and then through that also Ray,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: then I got in touch with you, so with him
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: through you.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah that's right. Yeah, Ray din Ardi from Landover Las Vegas. Yeah, yes, close,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: close friend of both of ours. Amazing guy. And we'll
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: get to Ray a little bit more in a bit,
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: because you're currently driving, driving an interesting vehicle, but that's
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: such that's such a good perspective to know your side
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: of the story again, that that you had been traveling
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: through all of Africa. You've been traveling, and we're going
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: to talk about your whole adventure here in a minute.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: But I'm so glad that you pulled into that taco stand.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: So yeah, me too. And also it was amazing for
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: me to see how you mentioned before, enthusiasm for traveling,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: and it was amazing for me to see a bunch
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: of people there that had so different backgrounds and at
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: the same time they happened to be doing, by some
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: sort of cosmic alignment, the same thing. So we were
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: out on for different reasons. We're out doing exactly the
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: same thing and experience the same moment, And somehow that
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: is some form of selective combination where people end up
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: meeting not because of random accident, but because of they
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: chose to do the same thing, They were driven to
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: do the same things, and they happened to found the
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: common to and eminator that make that moment possible.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Yes, kind of like the Star Wars bar, right, you
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: know where you got the you know, everybody's coming into
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: the Star Wars bar from all these other places. That
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: was kind of what Santa Rosa Lia was in that moment.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: And yeah, we got we got to share a meal together,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: and I got to get some of your contact information,
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: and then I bumped you again in Baja.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, I remember I was on these two fifty cc motorcycles,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: so my daily displacement would be in the range of
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: two hundred ks, so one hundred fifty miles maybe one
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: hundred and forty, and my crew speed would be sixty
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: seventy k's per hour to save the engine toy. And
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: I remember that day, the second time we met that
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: I was looking in my review mirror, as I often did,
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: because most objects on the road would me moved faster
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: than I would, so there was no actual need to
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: look forward. Lost the time I was looking.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Backwards, so you didn't get run over it exactly.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: So I see these two specs approaching very fast, and
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: only when you were got very very much closer, I
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: suspected maybe it is them, because I knew the route
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: you would take back north. Sure, And I remember then
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: filming the video of that moment, and I shared it
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: with Jeff.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, Jeff Camacho exactly who I was traveling with.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, because in this media you can see them
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: after we chit chat and and say goodbye, you can
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: see the two of you just taking off literally and
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: uh and Jeff fake news did it in one wheel,
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: he didn't too.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: A weekly a weekly out of there, well, I mean
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: we had five times more displacement on the motorcycles. And
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: the thing about chance meetings like this, and this is
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: why I wanted to talk about it in the podcast,
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: is that it's so important to talk with other travelers
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: because you never know who you're going to connect with.
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  Speaker 1: And now I have a lifetime friend that because of
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: a taco stop in Baja, and because we both chose
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: you chose to stop, and we chose to be open
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: and spend time with you. We were able to create
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: this incredible connection and I think that that is such
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: a beautiful outcome of travel is the people that you
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: read these lifetime connections with.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: And the interesting thing is you can apply this to life.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: Doesn't matter. It doesn't have to be with travel. Meaning
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: that sometimes what kid does well that we do normally
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: adults do wrong is that when you play as a kid,
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: you're not expecting any outcome from the play. You just
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: do it for the sake of exploring, and then see
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: what happens when you do this and that at the
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: same time, and sure, what's going to be the outcome.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: So we met there in Bachlifornia because we were open
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: to break the routine, go out and have a day
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: different from the previous, and see what happens. But the
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: good thing is when you come back from a travel
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: you can apply that to your day then and then
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: stop thinking, Okay, I'm going to go to work on
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: this route because the one that I do is the shortest.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go to this coffee shop because it's
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: the one where I always go. You just start traveling
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: in your.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Daily life, oh interesting.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: And the good thing is then the people you meet
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: in a tackle stand, you can meet next door or
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: three blocks from your home, and it's a guy that
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: leaves next door five ten years trusting just because you
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: felt stuck in that sort of routine.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: That's an interesting perspective and I think that that's so
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: true travel in your daily life, and you never know
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: what you're gonna who you're gonna bump into. So your
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: trip around the world, there are so many lessons for
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: things that I've learned from you, and also I think
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: that the listener can learn from you. To kind of
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: to summarize you, basically, you leave Italy and you drive
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: the length of Africa, and then you drive the length
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: of South America, and then you drive the length of
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: North America as well. But talk a little bit about
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: where you grew up in Italy, what brought you to
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: this point in your life that you said, and I
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: think you'd even done some travels before that, But talk
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: a little bit about your travels, what led you to
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: this point of saying I'm gonna leave on a two
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: point fifty and right around the world.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: Well, my old man has the fault. You can say
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: that like the guilty part in this because and I
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: really owe and that since very young age, he never
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: put a brake on curiosity, meaning I would be twelve
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: years old and tell them, you know that I would
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: love to camp with a friend of mine in the
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: woods on her own, because it feels more authentic than
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: just going with the family, the whole bunch. And now,
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: looking backwards, I would think that the normal response to
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: that would be are you nots? And instead he said
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: how many days you plan to be there? And he
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: asked why and he said, well, depending on that it's
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: the amount of water and food that I need to prepare.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: It was I remember saying five, just because it was
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: the first numbers that I could think of. And so
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: we were with a friend of mine twelve years old
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: in the woods, probably a few kilometers with my family
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: were renting a house, and they took us there with
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: a bunch of two bicycles because that was uphill from
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: the house. So the idea was I take you there
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: with food, water, and two bicycles and then when you're done,
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: you just come back.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: Keep in mind back then, no phones, no connection possible.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: To this day, I believe my father every now and
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: then would just check us without telling us.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: Sure, sure, but we did that.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: We were four nights in the in the woods and
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: on our own.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: Sure. So the feeling that there's no real, let's say,
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: intrinsic danger in being out the danger is the same
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: one you would have crossing the road, which is be
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: careful and be responsible. There's a consequence for what you do.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: That's that came from that. So instead of you say
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: teaching you be reckless, because you could think that, ah,
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: who is so reckless to bring a skid in the woods,
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Maybe not, Maybe it's a very good university, to the
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: very opposite, as in, you're on your own in.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: A good way, prepared for life. Yeah.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: So that was the very first experience and from then
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: on my old man kept doing the same. Meaning when
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: I was eighteen and I purchased was my first big bike,
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: so to say, it was a three fifty three fifty cc.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: It was a piece of crap, but I loved it, sure,
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: And I remember buying it and saying, you know that
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: this summer I planned to go from the land all
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: the way to the Atlantic Ocean in Spain. So the
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: pace mask, I said, sure, okay, and I remember we
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: were having dinner and I said, this is my plan.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: He decided and said, no on your own. No, it's
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: too dangerous. So I thought, tried, but it failed, and
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: instead he said, to my surprise and my brother's surprise,
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: which who by then was thirteen year old, he said,
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: you know no what you're not going to go along?
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Why don't you take your brother with you? So it
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: was me eighteen, him thirteen, on our bike, no credit cards,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: no phone call, no cell phones, no gpsence, just the
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: old school paper map. And we did it, and we
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: went for two weeks. They knew nothing about us, and
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: then we came back safely, well kind of safely, because
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: we had a minor bike drop on gravel, and back
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: then I wasn't too let's say, to experience the mechanics.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: So what happened is we felt the handlebar twisted, sure
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: a little. I knew that on those bikes it's meant
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: to be elastic so in such a way that it
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: takes the hit. So basically just losing some bolts, put
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: it back straight and drive. Instead of that, I came
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: all the way back with forty five forty five inclinent
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: handle bar made it a little hard, I bet, but
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: that was another, let's say, another step into making me
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: feel very comfortable in going out and and and just
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: see what happens.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: What an incredible story.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this Armando is my father's name.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Of course, of course.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: So from then on it just grew where every free
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: time that I had I would travel, either with a
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: bike or later on I bought a Volkswagen Vestphalia e
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: vent and that, let's say, made it. That's a good
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: thing about traveling, that there's one way to do it
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: and there's no right way to do it. No, no,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: And so it was totally different than traveling with a
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: bike because you bring your own let's say, bubble, your
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: own microcosmos with you, and it's way more comfortable. But
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: at the same time it's also exposes you less to
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: the environment, which is as a matter of fact, what
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: you're looking for, even if it's uncomfortable. So I loved
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: traveling with the van, but was not nearly as easy
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: to integrate with people around you. Basically because when you
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: go with the van, you're secure, you have everything you need.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: When you have everything you need, you don't look for
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: it elsewhere, sure whereas when you are with a bike
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: and maybe a twenty kilos package at most. With you,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: you constantly need people assistance, and that's very good because
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: you keept. You keep meeting people just because of the
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: sheer necessity of it, which then becomes something adjective, and
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: you keep looking for people when you don't need.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure, So in.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: Short, I think I prefer by much traveling on a
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: with very minimal gear, with very minimal so to say,
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: protective environments, so to say, you know the bubble that
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: it meant like the van follows you and brings a
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: little bit and say a few cubical meters of your
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: home anywhere you go. But I think I prefer better.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: I enjoyed better in my experience traveling with a bike
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: and very minimal gear.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Well, and if I remember too, I mean I think
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: you had maybe like a giant loop bag or something
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: like that. Was that what you had?
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: Similar?
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: Me think the brand wolf Man. Maybe no it was
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: endurerstand I think it was a tornado or sure can
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: anything like.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: That, Yeah, but very small.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: It was about twenty leaders, twenty second leaders. That too, okay,
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: not to make commercial, but when people does well their job, Yeah,
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: I'm happy just to recognize that the two side banks
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: were from Wolfman saddle banks, and they were amazing. I
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: treated those so poorly, not because lack of affection, but
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: just because the travel was hard and many times the
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: bike falls and so they take all the weight. They
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: were perfect. Twenty four months of pure massacre and they
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: held up very well.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, And and I think one of the
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: things that stood out to me about your trip, and
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I for those that are listening, this is going to
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: blow your mind, but on average, you spent twenty six
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: twenty eight dollars a day day.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: On the twenty four month period, meaning the decounts for
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: Ethiopia where you would spend the dollars a day a
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: dollar a day, and then in the US much more
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: of course, Canda much more. There's gradients. And also one
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: factor was keep in mind when you travel twenty four months,
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: you can choose the season you're traveling. So in say
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: it's the wet season in Central America, even if you
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: love camping, you're gonna end up using motels fairly often.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Because we're talking about maybe one hundred liters a night
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: per square meter. It's gonna swipe you away. So that
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: would also have an impact on the budget. But say,
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: I was also very much surprised when time went by
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: and I was able to calculate fairly accurate estimate and
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: reliable estimate of the let's say, the budget that you
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: actually need. It's very low. It was between two dollars
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: the cheapest country, fifty the most expensive. But then, like
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: you said, the average would be I think out of
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: twenty four months, it ended up costing nearly twenty two
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars, so less than one thousand a month. But
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: that would include not only the travel expenses, but your
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: life expenses, because when it's two years, you need still
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: need to go to the dentist, and you need to
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: replace some part of the equipment you have. You have
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: let's say, not only the travel maintenance, but you're.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah everything, yeah, and shipping the bike and.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: Absolutely all those and the flights and.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: The flight, yeah, all of the flights. And there's times
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: that you have to fly in most cases because you
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: ship from the South of Africa, right from Southern Africa
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: over to South America.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: So you had Argentina to Buenos AIRUS.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you have to fly yourself at that point
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: in time too. And then so you what was the
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: motorcycle you used?
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: It was a Yamaha Yamaha to fifty WR WR two
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: fifty R, which is a pretty sweet bike because it's
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: simple but extremely high quality. I found out also this
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: applies to the equipment you take with you as well.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: It's a cliche, but quality more important than quantity. So
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: a simple bike, well built way better than over specs.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: How do you say, like something.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: That has overdone? Like all the other stuff you saw
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: in Baja all overdone? So now how much did you
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: spend on the on the motorcycle and getting the bike
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: right ready to leave?
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: I bought the bike. It was a third hand. I
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: still remember the kilometers EAD had on it. One thousand,
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: three hundred and seventy two kilometers.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Ok, it was fairly low.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Absolutely not I was brand new. I mean, I think
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: it's considered by Yamaha as broken in Is that an expression?
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: At fifteen hundred and I was thirteen hundred. The thing
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: is that it was bought in Milan by a guy
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: who found it uncomfortable to drive with, and indeed it's
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: not a very comfortable bike. His friend mocked him and said,
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: I'm going to bite and show you how to use it,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: never did, and then when they bought it. He's the reason.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: He said he was selling it because of course you
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: want to ask such a new bike. But two people
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: already sold it as there's something that I should know,
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: and they said, no, I'm selling it because I find
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: it very uncomfortable to go from Milan to Brescia, which
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: is one hundred kilometers. It's not fit for long distances.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: And he asked me what do you plan to use
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: it for? And I said going to South Africa. And
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: then as a tease and as a joke, I kept
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: posting this guy maybe a picture a month from different
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: locations with the caution and saying, yeah, not too comfortable exactly.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: But that was very cheap. It was back then, I think.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: And here I'm fishing from memory, so I could be wrong,
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: but I think it was around seventy eight thousand dollars new. Yeah,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: I paid it three one hundred, I remember the figure.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: And then the setting up was again good quality but little,
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: few items. So if you focus where you put your efforts,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: you manage to set it up, set it up for
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: a very Let's say, I don't think I spent another
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: thousand on.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: It, so I mean, just for my own math, and
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: I'm and for those listening. You you bought the bicycle
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: or you bought the motorcycle, you maybe spent five thousand
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: dollars total, probably less, probably less, and then you spent
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: twenty four thousand dollars all in twenty two thousand for
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: twenty four months. So you're you're twenty five twenty six
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars for two years of life, for two years
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: seeing the world. And people will spend that on I mean,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: they'll spend it on a watch, they'll spend it on
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: a used car, and I mean they It's just it
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: just shows how absolutely possible, absolutely it is to make
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: different choices in your life. If seeing the world is
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: important and it's really what you want to do, it
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: can be done for a very reasonable amount of money.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: And you got to see the world, Like, how do
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: you even put a price on that?
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: I remember a couple of times, well maybe a little
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: bit more here in the States, I was invited to
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: give speeches about the travel, and I remember that I
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: had a question that kept being asked, and I for
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: the first few times I didn't know how to reply
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: to that, and it was why did you do this,
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: and I was taken back because it's a question that
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: I would It would not even occurred to me, and
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: until one day an answer popped by automatically. And since
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: then I used this because I thought, okay, it fits.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: When this guy asked me why did you go on
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: the travel, I asked him, look, can I can I
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: reply with another question? If you had a kid and
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: the kid was out playing in the in the backyard
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: with bugs, would you ask him why is he not
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: watching TV? And is he outside? I mean, is it
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: a question? I mean one of the questions the opposite,
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: why are you not doing it?
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Why are you?
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean as long as you're out playing with bugs,
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: and so you shouldn't be investigating why you're doing it.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: You just keep doing it if you're having fun. That Yeah,
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: that was something that surprising me.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: I like that, And it's interesting how many people choose
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: to just sit and watch the television.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Okay. I came to develop some sort of a theory
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: about it. And as a matter of fact, that we
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: need to act in order to feel that we are,
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: that we that every passing day makes sense. And so
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: when you need to act, you need to somehow coordinate
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: your your actions to a behavior, and this behavior very
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: often is given from the outside. Be it in the
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: form of fashion, be it in the form of any
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: sort of I don't mean to sound hard, but any.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Sort of celebrity or anything else here.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or it's some sort of an implicit manipulation that
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: you are subjected to. Where there are things that being
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: already approved as meaningful, you don't have to go through
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: the process of evaluating if they really are meaningful to you.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: They are meaningful in general. Is imagine if you are
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: in the woods and you need to survive, and you
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: need to try different roots and veggicies. It's a risky
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: that you eat, might feed you, might kill you. So
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: what you do You just follow what it's already been
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: proven to be healthy and okay. But sometimes it's also
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: the lazy choice. Sometimes it takes Maybe there's an amazing
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: barriage just next to you, and you're not trying that
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: because nobody's doing it. So, of course doesn't mean let
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: everybody be reckless and expose yourself to any danger. But
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: I believe that there's a minimum amount of danger we
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: are meant to go through to be alive. If you
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: deprive yourself from dozes of risk, the minimum doses of risk,
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: you're going to end up anxious, depressed, sad, nauseated life.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: So there's a little bit of exposure that you need.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: I think it's the one that I mentioned before when
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: I was a kid, a little bit. I'm sure I
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: was never at risk. My father was there looking for me.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: I'm sure of that. Yeah, But at the same time,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: the message that I got.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: Was try the berry, try the berry.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Oh there's a zen story, very nice one that I remember.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: There's a monk walking next to the cliff and all
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: of a sudden, a tiger pops out. So in order
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: to escape the tiger, he jumps into the cliff and
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: grabs a brunch. So he's hanging there and he looks
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: up and there's a tiger just a fit from him,
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: a foot from him. It looks down and there's ABIs,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: how do you say, like a void, And then he
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: looks on the side and on this very branch there's
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: a berry on it. And the zend story ends with
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: how good was that there?
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: Sure?
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: So all of a sudden, the perspective, which is the focus,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: switches from possible dangers to the actual local benefit that
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: is next to you and that you could actually enjoy
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: and then see what happens next. Which doesn't mean, let's say,
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: like I said before, be reckless, just eat there isn't
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: then dropped to your death or be eaten by a tiger.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: But only there's always going to be dangers. Some of
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: them are healthy, that's only what I'm saying. Some of
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: them are really necessary.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Well, and if you think about most of human history,
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: we were exposed constantly to danger, and we were constantly
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: exposed to problem solving and navigating and using our minds
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: in these very complex ways. And right now most people
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: operate in like I mean in Celsius. They're operating twenty
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: degrees celsius, twenty one degrees celsius all the time. They're
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: very comfortable. Life is not We're not exposed to the elements.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: And I think that you make a good point that
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: the more that we expose ourselves to reasonable risk and
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: reasonable danger in the unknown, I think the stronger we are.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: When you mentioned now problem solving, I believe, well, at
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: least speaking for myself, I don't have an extensive, let's say,
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: simple case to analysak except myself. But if I don't
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: have something that I choose to worry about, which is
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: a travel, which is an adventure. I would worry about
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: something else. It's not that I will not worry. So
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: if you at least choose to worry, it becomes a
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: challenge and not a can I say pain the yes,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: you can say yeah, So it's not a pain. Yes,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: it's something you choose. And when you choose a troupe
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: the problem, it becomes a challenge. So I remember another
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: thing that they would ask me is did you have
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: troubles on the on the on the on this adventure?
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: And I said, I I out of the travel looking
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: for problems, and I was lucky because I found tones
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: of them, lots of them, so many that would actually
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: keep me busy and train. This mechanism that you just
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: mentioned of problems solving but focused on something necessary and
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: not something fictitious in my hand, So that was a
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: very healthy mechanism there.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Or why you want the new car, or why you're
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: upset because you didn't get the new r money suit
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: or what I mean, it's just I think you're right.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Human beings will fill in that space with something unhealthy.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: It might as well be something healthy that we choose.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: That's probably also why there's so many people doing and
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: good for them and voluntary work because it's a way
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: to worry about something you're not directly involved with. So
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: you're going to do your best because worry is a
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: little bit out of the equation. As for yourself, you
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: know what I mean? Yes, so you can perform fully
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: very often you will be able to face let's say,
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: somebody else's problem and help them fix it better than
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: you would do with your own problems.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: That's so true, And we always give other people. This
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: is the advice that we need to tell ourselves.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: The storm is not so close from home into that moment.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: So true. You basically spent somewhere around twenty five twenty
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: six thousand dollars, and you are trained as an architect
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: and you're a professional. Give a little bit of insight
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: into how you got ready to leave, like how you
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: saved money, how you put yourself in a mindset to
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: be able to go on this trip.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, especially we just spoke about, let's say, the financial
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: element to it, but there's one element that is probably
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: more important, which is the time element, And I mean
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: money you can accumulate. There's gonna be people who's richer
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: than you are more poor than you. But time we
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: pretty much have the same day by day. There's nobody
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: that is much more.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: Than even Bill Gates has the same amount of time.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: Well, my point is that very often what I would
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: speak about the travel or plan the travel myself, the
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: main concern of people who's not money was, yeah, but
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: I don't have the time to do it, and when
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: actually time is the only thing they have and I have,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: and very often we end up doing some work that
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: actually turns into renting or selling eight hours of our
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: day in exchange for money. So that's a little dangerous
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: because you don't sell your talent or your abilities. You
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: don't make themselves the bad word that let's say, you
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: don't make a living out of your talent, but just
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: out of renting time. So eight hours you're there, but
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: you have no creative control on how to spend it
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: eight hours. So, as I finished architecture, normally the common
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: path would be you got into an office, do some
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: practice there, and eventually you will open in your own
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: office your practice or I'll sure say that, yeah exactly, yeah,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: And so that happened when I was twenty four. By
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: the time I was twenty eight. That was extremely unhappy,
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: and I couldn't understand why because on paper everything was perfect.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: I had a very good job in a very good office.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: I'm still in touch with these guys and we still
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: work together, so I could understand why. If economically and
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: financially the situation was very good, personally it was extremely good,
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: very good people, it was creatively challenging. Everything was good
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: on paper, and I wasn't happy. Yeah, and again, Armando,
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: my father was a very good help because I knew
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: I would eventually leave this job. But if you have
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: to fight against let's say your closest environment, and everybody
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: tells you that that is what you are supposed to
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: do as a grown adult, and you don't want to
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: do it, I believe if you're strong enough, you will
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: end up changing your path. But you're gonna have to
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: fight a lot of wind resistance that is unnecessary. Sure
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: end up you weekending you. So I remember being very upset,
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: not understanding why I was not happy with that Monday
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: to Friday job. And I remember I locked myself into
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: the bathroom of this office and I called my dad
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: and I said, look that I don't know what's wrong,
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: but everything should be fine, and I'm unhappy, and he said,
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: we'll get out of there, and yeah, I'll get out
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: of the toilet eventually. No, no, no, get out of that job.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: And I remember as a test I told him, oh, yeah, that,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: but they it's such a good job and they pay
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: so well. And he said, if I hear you talk
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: again in the same sentence about money and being happy,
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna kick you. And to me, that was exactly
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: what I had in mind. But I wanted him to say,
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: you're not insane. This makes a lot of sense. So
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: I remember taking a few months just to let the
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: idea sink and not take a decision based on impulse.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: And when I saw that after three four months, I
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: still had that in my mind very clearly. I went
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: to this to the three partners in the office and
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: I told them, look, I want to leave. And one
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: of them look at the attitude and said told you,
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: And I said, did you know? He said, yeah, I'm
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: surprised it took you so long to live so long
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: story short, that's when I quit working for an office
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: because I couldn't hand handled very well the fact of
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: selling my time. Sorry, my mind keeps going from one
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: you're doing. I remember, for instance, they would sign me
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: some work for the week and on Wednesday, Wednesday, because
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: I'm working hard and many hours, I would have finished
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: it and I said, you know what, I'm going to
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: go and take the motorcycle and go around Madrid. Back
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: then I was working in the Madrid And they said, oh, no,
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: you can do that, because if we do it with you,
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: we have to do it with everybody else. I said,
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: but I finished my job, so would you like better
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: that I fake slow working? So I dilute my work
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: in a week, So what's the point you pay me
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: for the results or the time? So that was my
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: circuit in my brain. So eventually what I missed was
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: accepted the capability, the ability to manage my time together
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: with the work done. So from then on we started
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: working as a consultant. And the best decision ever. Yeah,
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: because you and now I'm responsibilities on what I deliver,
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: not on the time that it takes me to do it.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: Sure, and do you still work with those guys? Yeah,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: that's amazing. Yeah, so see it all worked out.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. They said no, no, no, this is never going
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: to work, and it did.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: So, so you had to have been very disciplined and
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: saved your money. Yes, and and and then was it
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: that you knew once I got to this amount of
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: money I was going to leave or you just decided
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: this is the date? This was the date.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: And I truly believe that overplanning is a real killer,
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: and that you should plan the means, but never the
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: outline of the actual adventure. Meaning you got to make
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: sure that you have the time and the money to start,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: but you should not see an end to it. It's
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: like falling in love with somebody and thinking how much
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: love if I have for this girl? Okay, two years
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: and then it's over. It doesn't make any sense. So
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: you start with the illusion. How do you say that
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: the enthusiasm enough to be in Spanish illusion it's funny,
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: but it means like not a deceived, deceitful Do you say, sure,
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: but enthusiasm, So they go hand by hand. I like that.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: So anyway, in talking a bit by numbers, that always
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: I get a little carried away. But let's say, first
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: of all, I did not set off thinking I'm gonna
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: go around the world for two years. First of all,
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: I tricked myself into believing I know I would have
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: never had the gots, the money, the mind Claire already
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: to say, okay, I'm ready to face this. So I
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: tricked myself into believing that it would be a few
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: months to South Africa and I had enough time and
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: money for that. And then as things when rolling, it
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: became more and more. But at no point it was
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: a plan for two years. It was also always a
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: plan of okay, let's go a bit more, maybe a
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: few weeks, maybe a month, maybe okay, Maybe it could
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: be an objective in time or in space, could be okay,
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: and one more month, or I'll get to this place
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: in Patagonia and then I'll say and again. One of
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: the reasons I believe you don't have to plan too
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: much is because by planning too much, you set the
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: extent of your experience beforehand, before you limit it because
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: you have no idea what's going to happen on the
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: rout that is going to expand that possibility of experience.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: To give a practical example, once I got to South Africa,
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: I had no clear idea where I could go from there.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: If I had planned it to imagine and booked already
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: traveled to some location, I would not have the good
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: accident of going there to the port in South Africa
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: in Cape Town to speak to a shipping agent to
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: see exactly what I was going to do with my bike,
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: and exactly when a couple of Russians and pensioners. They
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: were there, and they were trying to ship their car
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: to America to Argentina, and their English was so broken
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: down that actually me, having a broken down English, could
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: understand them, but a local couldn't. So I was helping
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: them translate English into a slightly better English. Sure, And
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: as it turns out, these guys were renting a container,
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: and the container when you buy it, you purchase up
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: to six stones back then at least that you can
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: ship in it regardless of what's inside. So I asked them,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: would you mind if I put my one hundred and
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: thirty kilobike in your container? So long story short, they
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: could ship the bike for free from Cape Town to unbelievable.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: But if I had planned in advance, I would have
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: missed this chance. If I would have say, booked already
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: a cargo ship somewhere, yeah, I would have not had
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: this opportunity. So that's why I'm always a little keen
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: of leaving many blank spots on the.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: Planet allow for some serendipity.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely well.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: When you and one of the things that I remember
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: you talking about in Africa was your favorite country. And
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: I'm curious if I still remember that, right, But what
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: was your favorite country in Africa?
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Oh Man, I don't know what I told you, because.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Well, there's so many amazing countries. But what I guess
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: it was maybe the one that really surprised you that
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: you thought it was going to be one way and
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: it ended up being so amazing when you were in Sedan.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: So okay. But the reason I was so uncertain is
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: because depending on the moment of the year or the
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: day you ask me, I would probably give you a
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: different answer because of different things that stroke me. But
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: what I loved very much about the northern part, so say, Egypt,
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Sudan and Ethiopia, was the variation in the landscape, both
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: human and geographical topographical landscape, because you go from white
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: deserts to basically rugged hills of Ethiopia with everything in between,
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: but especially in Sudan, which is possibly what I mentioned
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: and now I'm trying to fish from.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: No, that's okay.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: It was my very first experience of traveling long distances
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: with no reference at all, no roads, nothing that tells
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: you that you're actually moving, because anywhere you look around
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: your three sixty on the horizon, you see this flat
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: line and it's blue on top of it and it's
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: yellow down below, but there's no reference. So you use
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: your GPS in navigation. Sorry in Maritimo, see routing how.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like point of reference?
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, point of reference and then you just move with
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: a compasses that tells you you're going five degrees offset
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: or And it was the first time that I again
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: I repeat myself, that you would move eighty an hour,
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: eighty kilometers an hour, and nothing would come close to you. Ever,
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: So it was both stimulating and a little bit anxiety
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: generally because you feel like you're like you know in
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: dreams when you run and you don't actually move. Same thing.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: I was running and I wasn't going anywhere, so you
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: start making a big country, so you start thinking I'm
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: stuck here, even though it's not true. And another element
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: to it was hospitality in such rock environments.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: You mentioned that, Yeah.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: There's like a linear correlation between how hard it is
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: to leave somewhere and how normally friendly and helpful people
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: will be there because exposure to need and let's say
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: a miscomfort will lead them to be extremely sensitive to
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: read and detect that discomfort in others and try to
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: put an end to it. Sure, so it wasn't absolutely
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: uncommon that you would be offered their beds.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, so it would really.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: Take you almost a confrontation to say I truly have
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: my own teeny signy bed and the sleeping bag, and
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: you would have to show them that before they would say, okay, okay,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: I will let you deny my offer.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: And how incredible is that though? It's just that there
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: are places in the world where a family cares for
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: you so much as a total stranger that they're willing
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: to give you what very little food they have and
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: what very little comfort that they may have, they want
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: to share that with you. It's amazing.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: It probably has to do with the fact that that
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: connection human connection, and the fact that whatever comes to
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: you is a loader of a bear, a bearer of
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: novelty and information and new experience. We somehow become I believe,
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: unesthetized to this because we are subject to such a
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: bomb varidation. How do they say like a bombing image.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: Just think of the amount of images you see every
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: day on your phone, thousands of thousands of different places.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: You're somehow cramped with that information to the point that
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: necessarily I believe, you're hunger for it diminishes. And it's
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: like if you're at buffet and they keep showing your food,
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: you get to a point where you don't want to
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: know anything about it. But now I imagine you live
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: with your family and a tribe of twenty fifty people,
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: basically a family clan, and then you get you're given
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: the possibility or the possibility the chance to meet something
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: someone that is the bearer of just something different. You
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: have a different level of curiosity, and I believe that,
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: together with danger we mentioned before, what really makes our
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: time here worthwhile is the giving in to curiosity and
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: asking questions, asking questions all the time. And what better
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: way is to find somebody that has it's a totally
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: different life than yours, and see how we, being such
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: similar animals, live different lives and.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: It is so enrichening to it really is, And it's
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: just a reminder of the things that are most important,
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: which is connection. And you know, our families and all
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: of that. So you make it all the way down
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: to South Africa, you ship to Argentina, and then you
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: you make it all the way down to Ushawaya and
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: you start heading back north.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: He again, Yes, and I'm sorry, I'm.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: A terrible no. No, you're doing wonder.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: I'll go one step back. One thing I haven't mentioned,
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: and it's absolutely worth mentioning, and it's important. When I
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: left Italy, I left with a body with a friend,
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: and our plan was to go down to Cape Town
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: in ten weeks. So it was more of a rarely
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: like experience than a journey to let's say, be drifting
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: slowly around. So we had ten twelve hours day on
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: the bike. It was quite physically demanding, but absolutely beautiful.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: It was rarely a NonStop all this was of course
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: on gravel roads when possible, or local roads in tarmac
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: when not possible to choose the other option, but never
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: ever on major roads, never ever. So sometimes it will
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: be twelve hours on the bike, but your ever speech
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: speed would be forty forty five. And so I want
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: to point this out first of all to give yo
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: one who is the body who was with me, is
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: do uh space here and is the funniest guy. And
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: to travel with somebody who has sense of humor. It's
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: fundamental because you are exposed to stress so much that
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: if you find a way to catalyze that stress and
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: convert it into something else, namely humor, yeah, sure, it
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: is such a realief funny, So every every occasion becomes
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: a reason to have a good story to tell when
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: you go back.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: And what was what was one of the most funny
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: moments that happened with you guys, Well.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: We would have this unspoken and that was what really
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: made it work. Well, unspoken connection where in moments of stress,
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: one of the two would take the lead and the
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: stress situation, the other one would just drift away and
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: it was unspoken, so it was just a matter of
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: looking at each other and nonverbal communication. It would be like,
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: oh you take this, okay to go And for instance,
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: it was very often that it would ask be asked bribes,
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: and right from the get go we found out that
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: the best way to deal with them was again humor.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: So if you have a guy playing tough and saying
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: you were speeding when you were not, it's never gonna work.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: If you try to insist you were not speeding, sure
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: make you just play silly, a bit clownish, so that
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: is gonna break character. It cannot play tough if you
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: play silly without being offensive. Of course, not by silly,
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: I don't mocking him. But example, I remember when one
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: occasion they would stop us and ask for an insurance
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: and we gave them the paper. The guy pocketed the
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: insurance and said, now you have to buy it back,
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: so you could, you know, play tough. I'm gonna call
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: the consulate and this is unacceptable. But instead we said,
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: you know what, money, We don't have much, but we
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: have plenty of time, so we will try to buy
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: it back with time, and and it was taken back.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: It was what you mean like I don't always. We mean,
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: we're just gonna sit down here and see what happens.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: And we sat there at his feet, literally edie s feet,
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: got the kindle out, started reading, got cookies out, which
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: were in our living room, and eventually, human beings, even
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: if they played tough and confrontational, deep down, they just
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: are curious, like we said before, So eventually we would
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: take out, say the tablet and go through photos and
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: he would be asking where those photos were from. And
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: then you give him a cookie and he gives you
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: whatever cigarette you smoke or whatever it is. And eventually,
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: after four or five hours, he would ask you where
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: you plan to sleep at night, and you're tell him, look,
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: if you let us go this place, but we only
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: have so much light now, and then it would give
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: you your documents, pat on your shoulder, and goodbye. So
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: it's some way to de escalate and diffuse. And Yon
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: was very good in this kind of stuff that I
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: remember one occasion where a guy was extremely insistent on
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: selling us some wooden masks, beautifully made but huge, and
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: we were on the bike and we were trying to
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: make him understand there's no way we can buy it,
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: even if we would like, and it would not stop
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: trying to sell, and so Joann looked at me and
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: was like, what's this. So basically he chose a mask.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: So he entertained the guy for twenty thirty minutes, again
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: not because he was being cruel, but just because the
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: guy didn't seem to want to leave. So eventually he
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: chose a huge mask and he said, okay, ill pick
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: this one. Can you fold it for me? And the
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: guy looked at him and then at me. I raised
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: my arms and said, I warned you that this guy's
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: a joker, so basically he understood that we couldn't take it. Yeah,
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: so that was just kind of yeah.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: No, those are so good though, Those are such good experiences,
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: and it's it is so important to keep that attitude
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: that positive at it.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: So, going back to your original questions, I made this
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: digression just to say Africa was some sort of a
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: sport adventure where we would just write, write, and then
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: have socializing in the evening when when we would that
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: up in some village. But once in the America's I
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: totally switched. So by then I was on my own,
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: and I decided that I just wanted to somehow drift
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: very slowly with nearly no plan other than a direction
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: like south. More or less. So my let's say, my
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: rate of progression changed radically. So now I will be
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: writing maybe one hundred k's two hundred k's a day.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I would spend days with a family in Patagonia
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: and some Atanda, so it totally changed. It became travel
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: became just a way of let's say, of means of experience,
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: but it was not even the objective and more Sure,
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: it was just a way to expose myself to other experiences.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: But sometimes I didn't even feel that I was actually
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: traveling because I was moving so slow so somehow randomly
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: that it seemed it was not even the objective.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: Sure, and you were just being yourself, Yeah, exactly, it just.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, you get to meet so many people, you do.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: And I remember in Newtuaya, of course, being the budget low,
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: at some point I usually camped. But back then in Ushuaia,
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: since it was not a planned trip, I ended up
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: there in autumn nearing winter, sure, and nights were sometimes
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: eighteen degrees below Zio in the tent because it was
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: a sumber tent meant for the trip Nefrika.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: So once I get to Huaiya, I was definitely needed
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: after going through all the whole patagony tent, I needed
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: to be in some warm room and warm shower. And
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: so I was going door to door from the hostels
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: and asking for prices. And keep in mind he was
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: raining and snowing and raining. So you get to a hostel,
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: get off the bike, get all the clothes away. It
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: becomes some sort of a ritual. You go in, get
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: for the quotes and the raids and then go out,
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: think a bit, go to another place. It's maybe the
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: fifth or sixth that I'm hitting. They give me a
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: rate which was good enough, something that I could afford,
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: but still they saw me a little doubtful note thinking,
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: and they said, look, breakfast is included, and I said, okay,
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: what if we take breakfast off? He smiled and he
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: said where are you coming from? And I showed him
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: the map and he said, and I'm sure he made
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: that up on the spot. He said, Oh, you're lucky
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: because we have a deal that if you have been
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: on the same journey on three different continents, then your
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: stay is free. And I said, oh no, I understood
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: that he was just being generous. So my initial plan
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: was I'm going to stay you Shai a good week
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: ten days to red. Since I was getting that as
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: a present, I didn't want to take advantage. So I
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: stayed there a couple of nights, and then the third
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: day packed everything and I was ready to leave it.
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: So I go through reception. I'm doing the checkout, and
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: the guy said where you leaving? Where are you going?
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: I said, well, well, I'm ready to go and travel more.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: And he could read me and said, you just you
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: just don't want to take advantage of the day. So
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: he basically forced me between brackets to stay there longer.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: And my way to give something back was that the
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: day that I left, I went to the supermarket and
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: bought a huge, say, breakfast kit, so that would refurnish
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: the sure the morning buffet. And I remember you got
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: pissed and he said, you are not supposed to do that,
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: because I was offering you this, to which I replied, yeah,
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: you own a business. You're not supposed to have people
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: stay here for free. So who wins?
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: But yeah, the generosity of people. So some questions come
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: to mind for me. And then we're going to get
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: to the end of your trip because I think people
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: will find it fun. But what were some of the
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: key things that you learned crossing Africa and crossing the
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: Americas when you went back to Italy? How had you changed?
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: What it changed about you?
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: A radical thing the ability to read non verbal communication
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: when you're alone and exposed to different environments, radically different environments.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Say you are alone in a tribe in Ethiopia, you
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: are entirely dependent on the way you read non community
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: nonverbal intentions. So how people are looking at you, what
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: they're looking for in you, and it's vital to be
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: quick in death in reading what they are intentions are,
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: and based on that, it just your behavior as in
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: very friendly, not so friendly, openly aggressive, because sometimes you
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: would have to fake. I remember that I came to
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: the conclusion that sometimes you have to fake some sort
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: of unreadable state of mind. I'll try to explain. If
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: you are very openly kind with somebody kind, boom, easy connection.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: If you do that with somebody with nasty intentions, you
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: just wakened yourself. So when I sensed that the environment
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: was not so friendly or at least a little bit dodgy,
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: I would give mixed signals. That is super interesting to do.
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: So people will think they have an open plan with you,
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: or at least a clear plan when they think they
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: could read you. But now if you lead them through
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: different roads, they don't really know where they are. So
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: that would be achieved by being very open and smiling
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: and all of a sudden have a twisting mood or
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: do something unpredictable nearing the aggressivity.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: Sure, So imagine they were being friendly and then somebody
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: tried to takes advantage and maybe touches your bags and
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: tries to go to your belongings, and then you snap,
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: but it's not a real snap. It was simulated. And
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: and then just after that big broad smile, and they
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: are confused as hell. They don't know what's going on
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: in your head, and you also don't know. But the
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: thing is it make them a little bit more reluctant
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: to frame you as potential the exactory.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, and.
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: That worked very well. So in short, I think you
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: have to be enough assertive as to not be be
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: taken advantage of, but not to the point to become
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: a threat to anyone.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: Sure, so you would always have that mixed balance between you. Yeah.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: So, now this is an interesting question. Did you find
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: then that nonverbal communication was fairly consistent?
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: Interesting, Yes, despite the cultural differences, despite the language differences,
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: these core human nonverbal styles.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: And I have no elements to say that on a
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: scientific base, but I would say that verbal communication is
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: a fairly recent thing, and we've had an animal communication
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: for way longer than the words, and I believe that
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: that is still there. You can still read like a dog,
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: depending only he moves the way he moves his ears,
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: you will know what is what's in his mind. We
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: have the same even though he's not taught at school.
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: In school, but the way you move your eyebrows, your
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: the muscle on your necktands it makes sense. Oh yeah,
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: you can clearly tell what the guy despite what he's saying.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: You can tell if what he says matches his body
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: language or not his intentions.
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Well, so then what were some of the things
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: that you learned.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: I've always been, like we mentioned before, now, you always
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: need something to worry about. So I've always tended to
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: overthink anything in life.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: I think most people did, but.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: It's something that I never was pleased about. So my
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: policy is very simple. If you don't like something, don't
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: keep doing the same mistake over and over. And it's
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: not easy, but at least the intention is clear. I
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: believe that, as with poison, when you get exposed to
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: very small amounts of it over a long period of time,
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: you become some sort of immune to that. Being exposed
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: to the anxiety of travel, of the uncertainty of traveling
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: on your own for so long put wars into perspective,
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: meaning now I can be way more detached by things
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: that I see as silly, and maybe five years ago,
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: ten years ago, I didn't see as silly. I saw
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: as important, vitally important. And now I recognize that on
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: the grand scale of my life, they're not really that much.
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: The insurance has doubled on my bike. Shit, okay, I
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: forget about it. And before I wouldn't be like that.
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: I would attach to the worry as a how do
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: you say, as a tick?
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, and it would slowly so it.
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: Definitely changed my perception of what is really not. Really
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: this sounds pretentious, but I let's say I'm less prone
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: to react right away in a cause effect mechanism. I
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: don't know if I explain myself. So now let's say
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: my buffer time before reaction is longer than it used
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: to be. So something happens and before I would snap,
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: and now I'm like, I should probably snapt me. You know.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: You know, it's funny if people would just take a
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: breath before they respond, even one breath when someone says
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: something that frustrates them, or if they would just take
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: a full breath before they respond. I think the outcomes
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: are I mean, that's what I choose to do is
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: no matter what, no matter what, I'm responding to take
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: a full breath, because then that way it just gives
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: me just enough separation from my emotional response to have
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: more of a of a human or an intellectual response pressure.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: And we're going to take a quick break to talk
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: about what makes this podcast possible. The Overland Journal podcast
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: is brought about by Overland Journal Magazine, which is our
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: premium print publication, but it's also brought about by Expedition
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: Portal dot com, which is our website. If you go
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: to Expedition Portal dot com, you'll be able to interact
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: with about three hundred thousand other Overlanders that are in
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: our forum, and then you can read up to four
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: thousand articles that we have on the homepage. So we
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: thank you all for listening. We thank you for supporting
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: the Overland Journal magazine and Expedition Portal dot com. Well,
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: your your trip was such an inspiration to me, and
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: it has been to so many We've featured your your
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: your photo graphs and over in Overland Journal, and it
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: was it just was such a joy to see you
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: make it through that whole whole process and you make
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: it all the way up to Alaska on this on
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: this motorcycle that that endured so much, and I believe
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: you made it to Fairbanks, Fairbanks exactly, and then what
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: happened Fairbanks?
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: So, like I said, the plan was never a fixed plan.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: But by the time I was in Fairbanks, the plan
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: at the moment was to cross into Russia and then
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: why not make it all the way back overland to Italy,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: So crossing potentially probably Russia in the stands.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you called it that in Central Asia.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: But by the time, so keep in mind, this bike
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: has been two years on the road, very often exposed
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: to high altitude deserts with all the minerals and the
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: corrosion that might happen there. So in the last few
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: months electric wise, it was being a little bit jazzy,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: meaning that if you would put a turn signal on,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: the engine would respond to the that he actually ran.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: That's exciting.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: So by the time I got to Fairbanks, the stater
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: had collapsed, so I was able to find a new
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: one put it in. Problem was that the original stater
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: had failed because it had been it was overtaxed by
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: the fact that there's so much dispersion was occurring through
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: the wiring harness, So being by consuming way more than
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: it should have. The stater had to work way more
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: than it was supposed to work for so that basically cooked.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: The moment I put on a new one, the new
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: one delivering full capacity, I believe it was fourteen point eight,
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: it basically fried everything. Oh wow, So the ECU, everything
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: you can imagine I was gone. So then I stopped
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: in Fairbanks in a shop called Northern Power Sports, a
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: lovely guy. Lovely guys. They helped me. Keep in mind
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: I back then I was not in a situation where
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: I could pay for let's say four or five hundred
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: years dollars just to have four hours of a guy
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: checking what was wrong. So the guy did it under
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: spare time as actually I believe they stole their own
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: time and it was not just share time as they
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: told Anyway, the diagnostic was that, like I said, everything
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: electric was gone. So we were talking about having parts
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: delivered from Europe because the European model is different due
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: to contamination regulations, so all the plot connections are different.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: Everything electronic problem was he would have been a couple
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: of months between the delivery, the price would have been
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: way higher than the bye In long story show, I
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: didn't have the cash for that. Sure, at the same time,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: I didn't feel like raising the white flag and saying, Okay,
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: I've been defeated by failure and I'm going back to Italy.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: So the shop had two bikes on sale secondhand. One
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: was a Vistrom totally destroyed, probably used by somebody else
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: to do an overland overlands for any trip. And the
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: other one was a bike that didn't have anything to
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: do with mine, at least my way of traveling, and
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: it was Kawazaki ZG one thousand. It was basically like
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: imagine a couch that rides real fast. Ok, gotcha, And
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: so this guy's Craig was his name. They sold me
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: its bike for a very good price, lower than they
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: should have. And with that bike I went the only
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: place where I could easily work, which was Mexico.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's right, you went to Mexico City.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: So from Alaska I went all the way down to Mexico,
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: where I stayed for one year and well, saving enough
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: money to go back to Europe then. But the idea
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: is still there to retrieve the bike up in Alaska.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: Eventually you have it fixed and continue traveling, or continue
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: traveling with another bike, Yeah.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: Because that sounds like an adventure just to get Hopefully
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: the bike is still around. Yeah, and like you said,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: it would be understandable if it wasn't. It's been a
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: few years. Yeah, so maybe the bike is still there.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: So those are listening, We're going to find out if
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: Stefano's bike is still in Fairbanks and if it is.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: If it is, maybe we could all pull together to
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: see if we can get that fixed. And then you
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: got to you gotta make it up to the end
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: of the road. You were so close to the end
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: of the Pan American so but it was also so
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: impressive for me to see your lack of attachment to that.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: Like you you didn't feel gutted. You weren't you weren't upset.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, you were probably slightly disappointed, but it didn't
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: seem like it took away from the whole journey.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: So now when when like I said, went in two
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: years time, you see that out of many accidents, good
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: stuff came out, you become a little bit more reluctant
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: to judge an event as bad before you see the outcome.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: And the outcome was actually very good because it came
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: out one year of Mexico that I was not ever
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: planning on. I lived there, I knew people there, I
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: was able to work there, and it was rightdom. I
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: would have never picked that, not because of lack of interest,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: just because the option was not on my table and
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: then it abruptly my table. And yeah, that's probably another
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: thing that before I mentioned asked what I made of
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: the experience. That's probably a third thing, limiting the prejudgment
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: of personal events, things that happened to you, being less
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: swift in saying, Okay, I want this, I don't want
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: this because often I don't have the elements to know
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: until I try.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: And maybe they're just meant to teach us something sometimes
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: and often, and if we allow it to teach us something.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: Because I think of it, when you plan a trip,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: you have to be creative enough to imagine certain experiences.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: I want to go there, I want to experience that.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: So that's very good because it stimulates your creativity. At
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: the same time, the experience is limited to your creativity,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: and as good as it can be, it's never going
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: to be as extensive as accidents. So you know what
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to say that that accidents can actually boost
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: your creativity. So gotta be careful when you plan out
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: to not overdo it, because it's good to, let's say,
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: start dancing, but you don't want to know exactly every
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: move at the end because that always choreography is not
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: a free dance anymore. It's true, it's it's an act.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: It's not natural life.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: So I'm thinking of about the man or the woman
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: they're currently working right now in Denver, Colorado, and they're
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: an architect and they want to go see the world.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: What advice would you give them? What would you if
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: you were if you were going to talk to yourself
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: five years ago, seven years ago, whenever it was that
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: you started your trip and you were to give yourself
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: some advice, or you are going to give that man
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: or woman in Denver, Colorado, the architect that's about ready
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: to want to go around the world, what would you
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: tell them? What would be the advice you would give.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: On I would tell him that it's harder to rent
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: a room than to make a trouble like this, that
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: only the first step seems difficult. I guarantee any other
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: step is way easier than getting out of bed to
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: go to this routine job, waysier So my advice would
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: be to myself because you always feel in time that
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: when you reach something in life, you wish you had
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: done that before. So what I would tell myself would
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: basically be this, just take the first step. And I
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: know it's sounds cliche and it sounds like tried, yes,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: but things are way easier when you do them than
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: when you plan them. So that's why overplanning it's truly
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: ridiculous because not only takes energy to plan, but it
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: also sucks energy to the actual experience, So it's a
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: lose lose situation. And yeah, my advice to myself would be,
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: don't overthink it. Make sure that you're always the owner
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: of your time, that if you have a job, you're
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: being paid for the outcome of your job and not
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: for the time it takes you to do it. And
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: another tried element that everything is short and you only
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: get a shot at life. One is enough if you
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: use it well, but there's a good chance you don't
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: use it well, So try to try to change course.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: If you see there's no shame in change course. If
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: you see that you're not happy, there's probably a reason
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: for that exactly, and better find out before you can't
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: find out anymore.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: And then that's when regret happens when you Yeah, when
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: you get to the end of your life and you
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: haven't Yeah, but I.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: Believe regrets are also there's also a way to twist
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: the omelet on the good side. Also, regrets are a
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: great mechanism. Yeah, it tells you there's still enough time.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: Nobody regrets when there's no more time. I don't believe that.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: So once you feel it's like imagine you put your
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: hand on the fire and it hurts. That's because your
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: flash is still alive, and it tells you there's still
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: something that can be done. Take your hand away. The
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: moment it doesn't hurt anymore is because the hand went
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: into necrosis. You don't have any need to take it
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: away because it's dead already. Same with regret. If it
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: still hurts, it means you can still do something about it.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: So the flash is still alive.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: It's only when you don't care anymore that it becomes dangerous.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I no, that's that's wonderful advice. And I just
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: want to thank you for being who you are and
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: for being my friend and being in my life, and
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: for taking the time to come down to Prescott to
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: have breakfast with me this morning, and I know that
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: you're traveling around in this beautiful little Westphalia. Oh yeah,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: that that Ray Dinnardi let you use from from from Vegas,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: and it's just it's so great to see you. And
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: it's also so helpful to have these conversations and remind
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: people that you can literally go around the world for
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: years on less money than it would take to buy
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: a used car. So it's just absolutely incredible what's possible
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: if we put our mind to it.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: Also, my very first podcast, and it's amazing. I know
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: you better now than an hour ago. It's a very
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: good tool. Yeah, I had no idea.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: That it would be so pervasive, Yeah, connecting. Yeah, well,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: it's this is the This is the most favorite part
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: of my job. And I didn't know that at when
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: I started podcasts, but I have been so fortunate to
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: have so many people that I know and love sit
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: across from me and ask them the questions that I've
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: always wanted to ask them about their life and about
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: what they've learned, and so to me, it is the
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: greatest honor to do this, and it's also the part
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: of my job I love the most, so I feel
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: like it's a win win for me too, so I
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: get to hang out with people that I care about,
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: so fantastic. Well, thank you, yes, exactly, thank you. And
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: for those that want to follow your adventures, can you
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: give some information on on what Instagram account you have?
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's I don't know how to well, Stefano Melgrati. Yeah,
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: and so the spelling would be sd E f A
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: n O, and then that's my first name, and then
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: the surname would be Meli Granti, which spells m E
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: l g r A t I.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: There we go. Stefano Melgrati on Instagram. You can check
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: them out see is beautiful images and his travels around
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: the world. We're going to do a little bit of
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: work to see if his motorcycle is still in Fairbanks
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: and see if we can help him complete his journey
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: up to the Arctic Ocean. So look for more information
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: on that in the podcast. And Stanill, thank you again
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: for being on the podcast, and we thank you all
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.