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When the Shadow Walks You Down: A Marine Veteran & Cop’s Fight to Heal · Veteran Wellness Podcast

• Jack Reed: all of this basically was unprocessed trauma. I basically carried that one more than the other ones for the next twenty five years because I could not get past the fact that I thought that that was my fault. I had that survivor's guilt, I had that I had all of it, right? Just without knowing that that was what was wrong. And so once I promoted in 16 is like I said, when I kind of recognized that that things took a turn. And I've heard this from retired guys, I've heard this from retired military guys, special operator guys, as well as retired cops. Once you slow down, Erik Lawrence: Mm-hmm. Jack Reed: a good friend of mine says, that's when the shadow walks you down. And so Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: I slowed down but didn't stop working, but my pace had slowed so significantly from what I was doing before that I started I didn't feel right. It was in my head. Everything was in my head. Erik Lawrence: starting to think Jack Reed: and you had too much time to think about it. And it was actually a couple of podcasts that I listened to that actually got me to the point That helped me realize that I there was something wrong with me. And that was like the first big step, right, to figure out that there's something wrong. Erik Lawrence: Jack Reed. I almost called you some other Jack, but you know. There's Jack Reed: That's okay. Erik Lawrence: Jack Carr, there's Jack there's all kinds of Jacks, but you're Jack Reed. How you doing today? Jack Reed: Great. Thanks. Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Well, let's you know, we met each other I don't know, maybe a year and a half ago, I guess it's been. And we chat once in a while. But our our mutual friend said you're doing very good since the retirement, so I wanna talk to you and get the low down. But look before we do that, let's start where you grew up and how you got into the Marine Corps. You must have got in trouble or something. Jack Reed: Almost. I grew up in in the LA area in Southern California and but the the thing that really drew me to the to the Marine Corps was my uncle. he was in Quezon in Durant of sixty eight sixty nine and was wounded, decorated, and so I kinda grew up as a little kid in the eighties, on those stories. And I remember I I think about my experience in life and all of the the things that I've done in my career and I and I now can superimpose because when I'm when I'm talking about these kids' stories, he was the age I am now or younger. And I can see why he went to he went to work for Southern California Edison after he got out of the Marine Corps and that he spent most of his life in the mountains by himself. Because he Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Yeah. Jack Reed: was he was a hundred percent figuring stuff out. And being alone in the quiet was was an important piece for him. but that is really kind of the the thing that that drove me that. I I was I was I played sports and was an athlete in high school and and and didn't have any real negative experience other than the fact that I was anxious to go do something real. And Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: so I was only seventeen when I graduated from high school, so I had to wait. until halfway through college to sign up and then I left after my freshman year of college to go to boot camp. It was a intric interest interesting experience. I had started dating my then girlfriend kind of during that recruitment process. And I mean, for for Marines, the Marine Corps birthday is kind of a big deal. And I that's a massive understatement, obviously, for any of the jar heads that are listening to this. but my wife was born on the Marine Corps birthday. When I told my recruiter Erik Lawrence: Ha ha. Jack Reed: that, my girlfriend, born on ten November, he lost his shit and told me that I had to marry that girl. And I was like, man, I'm freaking I'm a kid. Well, she's an integral part of this process in this story, but that that in fact happened and she's been with me on this ride the whole time through the real good stuff and the real Erik Lawrence: Wow. Jack Reed: bad stuff. So Erik Lawrence: Impressive. Jack Reed: I got in right as Somalia was blowing up. And I think I signed in ninety three but didn't leave for boot camp until ninety-four. So that was the that was what had happened. I watched, you know, Desert S Shield, Desert Storm as a sixteen year old kid in high school, and that was what I wanted to do. But once I had gotten in, I there was I I tell people I was a Clinton Marine because we didn't do anything. Like nothing happened from ninety-four Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: until nine eleven. And Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: with the I mean, no disrespect to Bosnia and Kosovo and those, you know, those conflicts, but there was not what I was thinking in my mind as a kid that I had signed up for. So I ended up in the reserves in the late nineties and decided I had met a couple of guys that were in that reserve unit that were cops at LA LAPD. And so they're like, you should just come work with us. You know, when do you turn 21? And I was like, you know, in a in a in you know, 97, whatever, 97. They were like, all right, well, as soon as you're 21, apply and come on over. So while still in the reserves, I went to the police academy and was doing cop stuff during the day, reserve stuff on the weekends, and you know, begging as a new as a new boot cop, begging for time off to go on these little mini deployments and went we went down to the US Mexico border way before that was a thing that was commonly done. we ran Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: around and were doing sneak and peek stuff with the Border Patrol, which was a lot of fun. It was called GTF six back then. Yeah. Erik Lawrence: JTF six. Yeah, I did one of those. Jack Reed: Yeah. So that was cool. That was like the first time I'd ever gotten like real bullets. in my rifle as a Marine, like walking around with you know conditional one weapons and stuff was was wild. And we went to Norway a couple of times, froze our butts off. but it was all training. And so I wanted again that same mode to do real stuff. And so that was what I thought LAPD would give me. So I got hired there in 97 and stayed there until was there for five years. or just just a few months short of five years and that was a I mean that was the place to be at that time in America. There was a lot of a lot of stuff going on in the streets and crack cocaine was a big deal and after two years in patrol as a new guy I got a loan assignment to narcotics division and I spent two years learning that trade plain clothes running informants and and that type of work. And that's really kind of what I I wanted to I wanted to do. So I thrived in that environment. But the like the savagery that you see and in that as a cop in regardless of whatever your assignment is is it's difficult for people that have not grown up in those environments to understand. I think normal middle class suburb America doesn't see doesn't see how how how ugly the the world is, even though it may only be, you know, twenty miles Erik Lawrence: I'm sure. Jack Reed: away. Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: but there were some I I I did my probation at Rampart. There was a guy whose locker was just down the way, named Rafael Perez who turns out was committing significant felonious crimes as a cop and so that Erik Lawrence: Ha ha. Jack Reed: whole scandal The rampart scandal blew up. and that was kind of my learning experience on the job of like being told in briefings that there were FBI surveillance vans watching the cops conduct business. And I was like, wow, this is is this this, you know, here I've been a cop for six months. This must be normal. Okay. I guess this is just how things are. And then after that whole thing kind of imploded and and everybody, I I knew a lot of guys that got sent home. I got interviewed a bunch of times. That's a very, very stressful experience. And turns out people a couple people went to jail and a lot of people got their ribe lives ruined because of their association with that guy, even if they didn't do anything wrong. Erik Lawrence: Wow. Jack Reed: they just put dirt all over everybody. So anyway, the aftermath of that was like, you know, maybe maybe I'll go work in a like a little bit of a smaller police department where, you know, anything that happens in LA ends up on the news in Tokyo in 20 minutes. It's like Maybe it'd be nice to go work someplace Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: that's a little bit more a little bit a little bit lower speed, but still, you know, enough going on to to be exciting. So when I was in the Marine Corps, obviously I was stationed out here on the west coast, and Camp Pendleton is right next door to this little city called Oceanside. And Oceanside was the kind of Fayetteville, Jacksonville, North Carolina, the kind of town outside of a base with a bunch of grunts in it is is usually Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: got some exciting things happening. So I I met a guy, close friend of mine, who talked me into coming down. And so I I I la I lateral transferred from LAPD to Oceanside PD in 2002. I had looked at getting a transfer from my reserve unit while I was starting to go through that process and I ended up doing the paperwork to get out in August of one. Erik Lawrence: Hmm. Jack Reed: So September of 01, a lot of things changed. Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: I I was still working in LA and I got a call from a friend of mine, who had just gotten out of the Naval Academy, and he was at Third Marines. And he said, Hey, we're under attack. And I was What are you talking? You know, because West Coast time, we didn't we didn't know what was happening. And as soon as, as soon as the second plane hit, we all got called into work. they deployed us, you know, in full Call out gear to downtown LA. And we're standing around looking up at these giant big buildings. And of course, by the that time, everyone had seen the TD footage of the of Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: the towers collapsing. And we were like, why is this the place that they decided to stage a thousand guys? And I'm looking at these buildings Erik Lawrence: Yeah what Jack Reed: going, if and then of course, at that time there were still rumors that there were because the the planes were all routed to LA. From Boston, Erik Lawrence: Mm-hmm. Jack Reed: I think. Well t at least two of them were. And so they thought Erik Lawrence: Two of were, yeah. Jack Reed: I think that was before they knew about one of the planes that the one that did not make it to the White House or the Capitol building. I think they they still didn't know where that one was. And so they thought it was coming to LA. And so I think at some point they decided, Hey, let's move everybody someplace else. But for those of us that were working archives at that time, as soon as nine eleven happened, I spent my last six months there. At anti-terrorist division doing nothing but surveillance on any target that Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: the there was dudes with no uniforms and no suits and no IDs that would come into briefings and tell us what to do, and no one ever knew their names, and it was a very, very interesting part of of my time there. So Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: but yeah, then down to Oceanside and did my first it was tough starting over. I mean it would like It would be like if you got out of Well, actually I think the Marine Corps still does this. Let's say say you were in the Navy for four or five years and then you go, yeah, I wanna be a Marine now. They just send you back to boot camp. It was very similar experience. You get taught to do things and you're like, dude, I've I've been doing this job. I've been like the first guy that I that I had as a training officer, I had been a cop longer than him. And so Erik Lawrence: Ha ha. Jack Reed: getting critiqued and told that, you know, you should change these words in this sentence on this report stuff was it was a tough pill to swallow, but I made a I made a career. I've been I spent twenty five years at Oceanside. I got to do a bunch of really, really fun and exciting things. and just retired just over two months or about two months ago. Erik Lawrence: Yeah, but in that I mean there's a lot you take in as a police officer. You know, you're seeing people in their worst. You're seeing things that you don't want to bring home and it's it's very under underappreciated. Jack Reed: Yeah, I wasn't very good at that. Yeah, the You obviously as a kid and I you know, I'm thinking with that young man mindset that, you know, hey, I'm here for the action and the excitement and the driving fast and taking chances part. And you're seeing all of the human wreckage along the way, all the dead bodies, all the Broken, beaten, raped, abused people. you see that every day. But so does everybody else that you know, because you only know other cops or other jar heads. And by that time Erik Lawrence: Hm. Jack Reed: the war had started, you know, after I had, you know, eight, ten years of of of that kind of experience. And it just all seemed normal. This is just what it is. There's no there's no discussions or training about how to process like traumatic things that you've experienced or done or seen or done to other people or have had those Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: things done to you, whatever it is, that's starting to change slowly in law enforcement, but I decided that instead of telling my wife about, hey, I had a bad day or whatever else or talking to other people that I just would just I'm I'm tough enough to Just take it. Just just suck it up and take it. And I was working at a super, super high level. I was I was working way well, now I recognize it as way too much. I was working at least sixty hours a week for twenty years, sometimes eighty hours a week. Like the money was great. the the work was fun. but we ha at our I was in a detective unit for about ten years and we were the we were the cool guys, right? The guys that could have beards and wear jeans and point machine guns at people and it was it was a really, really fun assignment. And I was I was able to kind of move to an FBI task force and then to a DEA task force and did some really, really great cases, using some really cool technology and had some really great support from the US attorney's office in in success in prosecuting a lot of those cases. I did a couple racketeering cases and put about seventy five Crips in federal prison over like Erik Lawrence: Wow. Jack Reed: a six year period. which is where I got to work with our mutual friend. Erik Lawrence: Mm-hmm. Jack Reed: she was amazing and Our policy at that time was that you did eight years in that unit and you had to go somewhere else. I was able to extend it because of some of the cases that I was wrapping up. but I knew that I had to basically it's kind of upper out. So I was either gonna go back to the streets to do that job after having all this you know, experience and you know getting flown to DC for big awards and all this crazy stuff, to go back and just answer calls and go to car crashes and stuff like that didn't seem like the right move for me. So I took the sergeant's test and and promoted to sergeant. And that's really kind of what I see now in my mind as the as the point where thing where I recognized that things were not going as great as I wanted to believe. So it's I I was trying to think of an analogy. Well, once I got into treatment and stuff and and I've learned a lot of that and I know we'll get into that stuff later, but I was basically pushing shit down emotionally that for my entire life, career, whatever you want to call it, and never hitting that pressure relief valve, never off Erik Lawrence: Mm. Jack Reed: gassing or being able to to talk about, hey, this is, you know, what we would do, which is what all soldiers and Marines do, is And cops especially is we would hang out with each other and drink too much. And then Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: you cause then you c then you're laughing and everyone's having a good time. You forget about all the horrible shit and you just remember the funny stuff with your friends. And we had a I worked in a in a unit where there was a lot of, you know, friendships and camaraderie and that was my favorite thing to do. The problem was is I didn't get to do it very often 'cause I always at work. And so that's one of those things or the it's not the kind of job that I mean, everybody there is a drug recognition expert, right? I they can tell if you're high or drunk in five seconds. So that's not the job you show up to work drunk. So what we would do is whenever we would stop working, we would go get shit faced until the sun came up or whatever else. or you know, that one that one day off you had out of three weeks, you know, you would just go, you know, drink a case of beer like it was no big deal. And I didn't recognize the cost that that was taking at home and Erik Lawrence: But Jack Reed: And all that really was was just a symptom of or a coping mechanism for symptoms that I was didn't really know were happening. the other all of this basically was unprocessed trauma. I had Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: five were five guys that were killed in the five years that were when I was at LAPD, every single one of them killed, murdered by a gang member. Hence my interest in working cases in that direction. And then two guys were killed at Oceanside in my first three years, four years here. And one of those I was really I was I was really really, really close to that event and felt I I I basically carried that one more than the other ones for the next twenty five years because I could not get past the fact that I thought that that was my fault. And Erik Lawrence: Mm. Jack Reed: I had that survivor's guilt, I had that I had all of it, right? Just without knowing that that was what was wrong. And so once once I promoted in 16 is like I said, when I kind of recognized that that things took a turn. And I've heard this from retired guys, I've heard this from retired military guys, special operator guys, as well as retired cops. Once you slow down, Erik Lawrence: Mm-hmm. Jack Reed: a good friend of mine says, that's when the shadow walks you down. And so Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: I slowed down but didn't stop working, but my pace had slowed so significantly from what I was doing before that I started I just I just didn't feel I didn't feel right. It was in my head. Everything was in my head. Erik Lawrence: Yeah, st starting to think about it. Jack Reed: Started thinking about it and you had too much time to think about it. And it was actually a couple of podcasts that I listened to that actually got me to the point that That helped me realize that I there was something wrong with me. And that was like the first big step, right, to figure out that there's something wrong. I I heard a lot of really interesting stuff from guys like you, guys that had done what s seemed like this crazy in the mountains Iraq-Afghanistan experience. And then they started talking about the things that they did. It's like, okay, this many entries this many this this many explosive breach exposures blah blah blah all these other things I was like well I I've done a thousand high risk entries in my career we do explosive breaching training you know twice a year you know where you're doing ten or fifteen of those a a day and it's like And then okay, this and it it I was like, why why is it that I why do I recognize myself in these guys in these podcasts? Like why is Erik Lawrence: Ha ha ha. Jack Reed: what they're saying make sense to me? I've never done that. I've never I've never jumped out of an airplane and and snuck in like I was a regular Marine, you know, the regular guy patch, right? Like we didn't Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: we were and like I said, the little bit of stuff that I was exposed to in the Marine Corps was was You know, nothing like what what the guys post nine eleven, the GWAC guys did. And so I finally got to the point. Where I knew I needed to ask for help. Once I so the first step was accepting that there's something wrong with me. And then the second thing was, All right, let me ask somebody for help. And they and I remember the first time I I went to the VA first and they said, here take here talk to this guy, let's get this diagnosis. And they diagnosed me with severe depressive disorder and s and some and something else anxiet some some other anxiety thing. And I was like, I thought this was all PTSD stuff. And they're like, Well, do you have trauma? I was like, Well yeah, a little bit. You know? I mean, how many people have you seen cut in half or, you know, how many dead people have you seen? I I remember feeling that that like I w I there's always training videos, right? These cops getting in these gunfights or you know, we went to a a cartel conference one time and they were showing these videos of these guys getting cut up and tortured in down in Mexico by the Sinaloans. And I was just like, dude, I don't want to see any of this stuff anymore. And I Erik Lawrence: No. Yeah. Jack Reed: remember hearing somebody talk about you know, for some people it's a canteen, for some people it's a canteen cup, for some people it's a two-liter bottle, some people it's a freaking giant. five gallon spark whiz bottle or whatever, but everybody's cup could get full. And that's kinda how I felt. I was like, dude, my cup's full. I don't I don't wanna see any more horrible shit. I'm done. I've seen enough dead people. I'm I'm done Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: with it. And Unfortunately, my treatment experience was was cut short. And I was really, really wanting to see what was wrong with me. Like I said, this doctor said this is what it is. But as soon as I the I went to a different person for treatment, she was like, no, I don't think that's what it is. I think that's all just in the big PTSD loop. And I was like, okay, cool. I don't know anything about any of this stuff. So I'll just trust what you guys are saying. But through the VA, they said, if you miss three appointments, Or you if you cancel an appointment without 24 hours notice, that counts as a missed appointment or something like that, whatever the rule was. And I was like, well, I work at night. at that time I had gone back as a sergeant and was in charge of our surveillance special investigations unit. And so anytime anybody gets shot or stabbed or murdered, we would go find them and follow them around. And so that kind of stuff would happen. And I, you know, someone gets shot and murdered at nine o'clock at night, and my appointment's at zero eight with the shrink. Or the counselor or whatever. And so I would send an email right away, Hey, I'm gonna be at work. I'm not gonna be able to make it. We're gonna be here on surveillance until the SWAT team hits the pad at whatever time. And Erik Lawrence: Mm-hmm. Jack Reed: I just I you know, it's not like I don't wanna be there. I have responsibilities. And that happened the third time. She never said anything before that, but by the on the third time I just got a email saying, You're dropped from treatment. And I remember like Erik Lawrence: Wow. Jack Reed: devastated, right? Because here I am doing something that is completely outside of what I feel comfortable doing. I know that something's wrong Erik Lawrence: Yep. Jack Reed: with me. I want to be better. I don't know how to do it. But I can't say that to anybody at work. So that's why I went to the VA, because I wasn't there's such a stigma around having any kind of mental health care or like, you know, man, I heard that guy's on psychmeds. He's he must be super befed up. He shouldn't even be here. You know, he should go Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: You know, whatever. Like all of that stuff was Weighed heavy on me. And so I kind of tried to go this other route, got the door slammed in my face, and then I was kinda like, F that. And Like that that that actually I think set me on a different course. So basically then it was just doing anything that felt good, right? Anything, I'll eat a whole frickin' pizza, I'll go over here and drink twenty beers, I'll, you know, stay out with my friends, do whatever I want, neglect my family, and like things were like starting to crumble for me. and I was also starting to have that like long-term impact of, you know, carrying a gun for America. Since the nineties, you know, after I was getting, you know, close to twenty seven, twenty-eight years and I just, you know, my back was busted up, my knees busted up, and the pain from those things was only increasing how much I was drinking, and I I realized that I needed I needed a whole freaking overhaul. And so about the time I met you, you were doing the TMS treatments. Erik Lawrence: Mm-hmm. Jack Reed: Transcranial magnetic stimulation, I believe is what that acronym Erik Lawrence: Yeah, yeah. Jack Reed: is. and I had a I know I'm skipping through lots of this, but the I have a lot of cops are like the same as me, right? We all all seen a lot of stuff. Some guys are way better at coping with those things, some guys are like me and just pretend like nothing's wrong for decades and then fall apart and they wonder why. But a friend of mine who was was was dealing with a lot of the same shit, went to Mexico and did the IVA game. And I had heard Erik Lawrence: Mm-hmm. Jack Reed: a lot of the the the operator syndrome guys were doing that and having some success. And I kind of thought that's what I needed. and so you were the first person that had ever explained that there were all the alternatives to that. And And I remember you gave me you gave me a couple of books, but where is it? The fire support book was super Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: helpful because knuckle draggers don't like to read books. It's it's it's like school, right? Yeah. Erik Lawrence: Or research. Yeah. Jack Reed: And so that broke down the things that I wanted to know about because I didn't have to read the whole thing. I just read the parts it for for for anybody that doesn't know. Eric wrote a book about all these treatment modalities and how what each thing is, what it's called, where it came from, what the background is of it, so that you can at least go, well, what is IBogaine? What is Five NEO? What is TMS? What is, you know, all of these different types of of things that guys are doing to try to get better? Because that's really all we want, right? Is to feel Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Yeah. Jack Reed: normal. And so after we talked, I went to try to re-engage with so treatment protocols. So this time I did go through work, which was its own scary experience. but Erik Lawrence: Wow, a bit. Jack Reed: that like deciding to say something was the hardest part. The treatment part was actually a relief because I had now said, hey, something's wrong with me, I need help. And I went from just living my life to talking to a psychiat a psychologist twice a week, every week for eight months, Erik Lawrence: Good. Jack Reed: to antidepressant medication, to TMS treatments, to like all of the all of the stuff, like the whole I did the whole thing. Erik Lawrence: The work. Jack Reed: And I remember I had to go through another assessment with that guy. And it's just Telling the same stories, the same horrible stories all over and over again. And He's like, do you do you want treatment, right? I was like, well, yes. He's well, you have to say that you want that, because I have to write this thing, this report. And he was like, I have to tell you. And this is like after he was done, we're walking out. He's like, it's gonna get worse before it gets better. And I was like, fuck, that is what? That's not that's not what I wanted you to tell me. I wanted you to say everything's Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: gonna be fine, you know? Pat me on the back or whatever. So that was partially true. because you gotta face all that stuff. All you're really doing. Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: is you're unearthing it, right? You've buried it. Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: We used, you know, for us you know, prior service people. Everything that we did was about carrying shit on your back, right? And so you know, I'm sure you can remember the heaviest ruck that you ever had. you know, I remember mine was like 130 pounds with skis Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: and a radio and snowshoes and poles, Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Water and yeah. Jack Reed: all that shit. You know what I mean? That was like so what it felt like for me was not only was my rock too heavy, but that I was dragging a fucking connect box full of shit. And it just felt like Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: that everything I did, I was ever was lethargic. I was no energy, no excitement, no motivation, no happiness. You know what I mean? It was just brutal. And all it is is just a a byproduct of pretending like you can take it, even though you really can't, because y nobody's supposed to be able to I mean it's an Nobody's supposed to see that stuff. And but some of us do. And the problem is is the guys that do see that stuff are around nothing but other guys that see that stuff, so it seems normal. And so we just all pretend that everything's fine. And we smile and we laugh and joke. We tell we tell we tell Erik Lawrence: Yeah. You pretend. Correct. You pretend. Jack Reed: horrible stories about horrible things and my gosh, did you see that guy's head come off? And like, you know, all of those kinds of crazy things. And and pretend like that's that's that's just what every yeah, it's normal business. So I had a really hard time during the treatment process trying to fix so I'm I have an analytical mind, right? And so I'm thinking of we're just fixing a car, right? What what are the things that need to be fixed? How does like which parts need to be changed? Which tunes, tune up things need to happen. And I'm trying to understand like what's happening to me. Because as you go through this, you you're hanging out with talking to these doctors so often that part of what they're doing is educating you on how your body and brain work. the physiology part of it. and so that was very interesting to me. one of the things that was very, very helpful for me on the front end was the breathing stuff. The meditation stuff was Erik Lawrence: Hm. Yeah. Jack Reed: a little bit hard for me because a lot of the time they would have like the the you know the calming voice. there was one I think the first one he did was like paper boats floating down the river or or something and he listened to this shit in headphones and I it's just like it's so hard to take it seriously. But I'm like, Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: do I want to be better or not? If a sit here Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: for 20 minutes, listen to the the the calm voice tell you that the babbling brook is is feeling and and just try to relax. And I and so that's happening. I'm trying to buy in. and then a a different guy that was doing another side of my treatment stuff gave me medicine. it they gave me a few different things that didn't work. I think the one that that I'm on now is buropion, which is like well butrin, which is like a a a really common like anti-anxiety, antidepressant. So right about the time that I start to feel better, I get this pill. And then like within a month or two of getting the pill, then I start going into the TMS treatments. And I remember talking to my psychiatrist that was doing the TMS protocol for what part of the brain. So I have to qualify this in my family and with the friends of mine that I have kind of shared my experiences with, I exclusively referred to TMS as brain zapping. Erik Lawrence: Yeah, pretty much. Jack Reed: and I remember when I was asking him, like, what does it feel like? And he's like, feels like they're tapping on your dome. And I was like, So I'm expecting a I'm expecting like something to tap me, but it's actually magnetic Erik Lawrence: Mm. Inside. Jack Reed: electricity that's appened like through your head and inside. It's a very, Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: very strange experience. And I remember talking to the doctor because he wanted to go over the protocols. Cause so what happens is they recognize they've they've mapped the brain, right? So these doctors understand that certain parts of your brain affect certain things. And Part of my brain that needed to get zapped was right over here. And so I I'm doing it for whatever it was, 20 minutes. You go in there, you do the thing, they put a little cap on your head that has like a like a think of it like a like an overlayer, a graph, and they'll mark the spot and then they put the little thing on your head and you sit in a chair and you relax and they hit the button and you're it's it sounds like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, and it's just like an electrical Erik Lawrence: yeah. Jack Reed: current going into your head. And I remember talking to him because so then you basically do that five days a week for I think it's like six weeks, 36 treatments, I think. And Erik Lawrence: Six weeks, yeah. Yeah, six or seven weeks. Jack Reed: and I talked to him after the first couple weeks and he's like, tell me what's happening. And I'm like, I don't I don't know. He's like, Well, no one no one can tell if it's working except for you. And I was like, okay. Well, how do I feel? Do I feel the same? Do I feel better? Do I feel worse? Because he wants to dial in his treatment Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: so that it's the most effective. And I was like, Well, what's happening? Like, I don't nobody's explained any of this shit to me. And he said, the way he broke it down was the current. stimulates the the synapses, right? The parts of your brain that that fire back and forth. Erik Lawrence: Connect ya. Jack Reed: And what happens when you have trauma, and for a lot of us it it's a similar situation, the part of your brain that stimulates joy and excitement and happiness kind of goes quiet. And what happens when that part of your brain goes quiet is if it never like wakes back up again. it's very, very difficult to to change that with medicine or with with other treatments. And so what he said is it does sh it it's structural changes to your the way that your brain is wired and it it it reactivates those things and allows them to grow back together, not the same way, but in an improved way. And Erik Lawrence: Mm-hmm. Jack Reed: that definitely started happening for me. Cause like I felt things Like I I felt curiosity. I felt and this may sound weird. I felt creative for the first time in a while. And I was Erik Lawrence: wow. Yeah. Yeah. Jack Reed: like, wow, that's not that's new. Like that's a so Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: I was able to, and that's really what made me because part of my problem was like, okay, I've been I've been going to seeing this guy for this past six months. I've been taking this pill for the past six weeks. Now I'm doing this thing. Which one is working? Are they all working Erik Lawrence: Hm, yeah. Jack Reed: together? Is this one thing working and that the these other two are helping? Like it didn't make Erik Lawrence: Mm-hmm. Jack Reed: sense to me. And it was difficult for me to to To decipher that. And honestly, I I don't, I'm at the point now where I it's okay to not understand Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: it fully. cause I'm better and I'm like way I'm way better. Like it worked. And I don't Erik Lawrence: 'Cause it worked. Yeah. I can tell. Jack Reed: know, I don't know how or why. I really do think it's a combination of all those things, because I don't think you can just go get your freaking brains out and you're fine. Like it Erik Lawrence: No. Jack Reed: I had to get into a Healing mindset. And that had to include everything, right? So I had you know, one of the things that that was was a contributing factor to my descent or into you know the dark times, right? Was I stopped exercising, stopped Erik Lawrence: Hmm. Jack Reed: PTN. And that there's a regulatory thing, which you explained to me, that happens when you when you sweat and when you release, you know, when your lymph nodes are doing what they're supposed to be doing and all of that all of that stuff, toxins and stuff getting out of your body, that's all that all happens naturally through exercise. And if you sit in a surveillance car all day long and you eat freaking junk food and you drink too much and then you do that for a decade, Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: it's and then you stop working out. Like 'cause once I rolled off the SWAT team, I just said, fuck it. Like I'll just do whatever I want. And it was kind of in that same dark time descent into fucking madness. So So I gained a ton of weight, a ton. I gained like over a hundred pounds. And in like a 10, eight, 10 year time period. And so that was then having a negative effect on my self-esteem, my self-confidence, was increasing the pain issues that I was having in my lower back and my knees. And so in addition to getting my head straight. I realized that I needed to to address all like, hey, and and I'm and literally I've been working my entire life for this glorious retirement thing. So in for for people my age of California, if you're a cop and if you have a little bit of of of rank, pension is amazing. Like it's It's it's more money than I made working by a regular Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: job. Because now I mean on paper it's not, but in turn in terms of net money, because they're taking 13% of every check and sending it Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: to to your retirement system, right? And then how much comes out for this and how much comes out for that? And so for for cops, the reason that most of us stay in those years when we're at our absolute worst is because you're trying to get to the prize. And for for us. Erik Lawrence: Mm-hmm. Jack Reed: It's it's was age as as soon as you turn age fifty, you can go. Take your money. And everybody's Erik Lawrence: wow. Jack Reed: chasing the bag, right? So 48, I was like literally coming apart at the seams, just completely. And I'm thinking so there was a stat that that was told to be when I was a kid, or I well, I I say I was a kid, when I was a twenty-one year old baby cop, and they said the average cop that does 30 years lives seven years. post-retirement. And they said if you leave, Erik Lawrence: Wow. Jack Reed: if you leave at 30 at 29, it jumps up to twelve. And if you leave at twenty-eight years, it jumps up. And I was at that like twenty-eight year threshold. And I'm thinking, hey dude, I'd really like a shot at living 20 years, 20 more years, you Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: know, with this, with this bag that I don't that I now can just hang out, do whatever I want. I I'm Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: I don't need to, I could just enjoy my family and try and be a good dude. But to get there is when guys kinda go through the worst shit and that and that's why you see guys getting divorced right after they, you know, for the second or third time or whatever, right after they retire because or guys that really come apart or guys that I mean, I ha I've had two friends that after they retired both committed suicide. And it's just like how how is it that everything is going so bad at the point that You finally get to where you don't have to do that job anymore. And but Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: you're so broken that you that you don't know how to how to cope with now that you're by yourself. Because that's the other thing is being retired is a very isolating Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: experience. the fun, I shouldn't say fun, it's the wrong word. The interesting part of that is it is a lit litmus test for your friendships. People that still call you after you're gone are your friends. Everyone else was Erik Lawrence: yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, that ps you're yeah. Jack Reed: a teammate or a coworker. Or a colleague, you know, if you haven't you haven't seen or heard from Erik Lawrence: Yep. True. Jack Reed: somebody since you left, they are not your friend. And it's it's Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: it is important for you to figure that out because you know, when you think about it, I mean if even if you're in a platoon or or company, it's like, hey man, here's fifty, hundred, hundred and twenty-five guys. Yeah, man, we're all in the same unit together, we're all bros, like everybody hanging out the barracks or doing whatever. It's no, it you know, even your roommate, you know, maybe or may may not be your friend. I mean, there's Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Yeah. Jack Reed: Like what real friendships are and that Erik Lawrence: Yeah, there's a lot of that. Jack Reed: what that mean. Sorry, go ahead. Erik Lawrence: No, it's it's I mean, every any time you leave that you lose a your purpose, your team, your identity. I mean you're rebuilding yourself into a new you and a lot of people's never mentally or emotionally prepared for that. So it's it's that's where you get the cataclysmic issues. Jack Reed: One of the good things and I'll have to give credit to some of the leadership at my department, they recognize that mental health is a big issue. 'Cause they're having people go out on with you know, after they've you know, seen some horrible event. especially younger generation. I don't I don't know if I don't think there's anything d different with them than with us, other than there's maybe a little bit of le maybe resilience is not something that was expected of them as they grew up, maybe in the Erik Lawrence: Yeah, it wasn't. Jack Reed: same way that it was for us. you know, I didn't have a water bottle at school, we drank out of the hose, you know what I mean? I didn't have a forty dollar, eighty dollar water bottle. but But yeah, so they're they're seeing that that that the the effects of the job or or I should say the effects of the job has on everyone are starting to show more of an impact because I think the of the the new generations they don't have the same fear of asking for help, I think that we do. Maybe Erik Lawrence: Correct, yeah, the we perceived it as weakness and it's not. You know, it's the opposite. Jack Reed: Right. It's not. You know, I I remember, you know, because I was a a surveillance guy for a really, really long time, and I went into the TMS shop in in Delmar and I remember sitting in the waiting room and I see a guy and I went, He's a cop and sure enough I was talked to this to the psychiatrist Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: and I was like, Yeah, I think I saw one of your guys at the thing. He's like, yeah, he's a motorcycle guy. Yeah, he's he's having a rough time. He has a couple really bad crashes, you know, kids angled hurt and stuff. And I was just like, yeah, he, you know, he doesn't do anything remotely close to what I do during the day at work, Erik Lawrence: yeah. Jack Reed: but he he's he's struggling, you know. And the whole point of that treatment is to get you back, back in business. Now, for me, it was to get me right to retire. But for guys that are in the middle of it in the grind, and you're like, I've been doing this for 10 years and I'm I'm freak I'm losing my mind. Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: that's a that's a thing that you can go do that isn't scary, like maybe going to Mexico or doing, you know, where where you think you need to do something drastic to reset your head. That that treatment worked for me. And Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: the main reason, the main reason that I was willing and I would say eager to do that was seeing your. experience with that and trusting that Erik Lawrence: well. Jack Reed: you would not have done something that you didn't think was going to work. You would not have wasted your time with that. and so it gave me the confidence to be like, okay, hey, let's jump into this with both feet. I'm gonna be good to go. You know, he didn't he got his brains zapped and he was fine after first. So so I really Eric, I do really, really wow. Erik Lawrence: Now that was my second trip there. Yeah, I'd done it a couple years previously and I just gave it another shot. You know, I was that desperate. Jack Reed: Yeah. So I I I do want to thank you in front of all of whoever is listening to this that that that was a really big part of moving forward with my own treatment progression and getting better. and there's one other thing and it is the reason that I'm talking to you today about this stuff that I don't really wanna talk about. my brother works in the prison system and the prison guards are In as bad a shape, if not worse, than cops and veterans. Erik Lawrence: Yeah, you're right. Jack Reed: they live in a jail with the savages. And the only difference is they just go home and sleep in a different bed. They're around that same shit all the time. And that is an absolute gladiator Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: camp, like you've never seen. And there's Erik Lawrence: That's true. Jack Reed: they're having a lot of a lot of suicide problems in that, in that line of work and a lot of mental health stuff. And he had a guy that he knew that kind of came apart at work one day. Went through treatment, retired medically from the prison service and Now he's a barber. And he cuts Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: hair. And guess what? Who comes to see him? All of his old co-workers, right? So what does he do? Erik Lawrence: you're kidding, you huh? Jack Reed: So what does he do? Hey, how's it going? How you feeling? And he has conversations with these guys who are not ready to say anything at work, but who know that he went through it and know that he's better. And so my brother put it on me. He was like, You have to talk about this with other people. Erik Lawrence: Yeah, he's right. Jack Reed: Like, That's your responsibility. Look, he's like, I cannot tell Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: you how many lives that guy has saved by just Erik Lawrence: I'm sure. Jack Reed: telling guys you need help, bro. You need to stop Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: doing what you're doing. And you need to go freaking talk to somebody and like get yourself on you're on the highway, you need to just jump off, get off the off ramp and start Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: something else. Cause this road leads you to nowhere. And so it was a very taxing Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Well you need to be bold enough to do that. Jack Reed: Yeah. And and so he really he liked he basically He made me recognize that part of the responsibility of having been through this is to Erik Lawrence: Yes. Jack Reed: share it with other people, to try to inspire them, to try to help them, or at least, if nothing else, help because I definitely had those moments to listen to podcasts where it was like, damn, dude, he he's the same as me. And and Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: and to know that there's hope and know that there is light at the end of the tunnel and there is a way out, and there is Happiness again, there is satisfaction, Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: fulfillment, the care and love of of of family and friends. You know what I mean? Like that's that's that's all real still. you just can't feel it anymore because you're you're you're covered in in all of that shit. Erik Lawrence: Denial. You just l pushing it down, holding it down and going hopefully but we never think when are we gonna have too much of it? What should we do? You know, and it's like, damn it, we should have known better. But that's from hoping to get people younger and younger while they're still doing this stuff, so that later it's just not a big accumulation of shit. and it it's too much to handle or too much to work on or you know, it just it ruins families, relationships, you name it. You know, the drinking, the drugs, the coping methods and and mechanisms for that. And, you know, we're old enough that we should know better that we have to put the word out, you know, and suck it up and go, hey, I don't like admitting this shit, but guess what? I'm admitting this. Now others can, you know, at least get some more data. Now you failed to mention you've dropped a couple of pounds. Jack Reed: yeah, that's right. So I I I meant to get to that point. I went off on some tangent, but in addition to getting my head right, I knew I needed to get fixed physically. So I went and, you know, got MRIs and all my shit, figured out, you know How bad things were. they said I need double knee replacement. They I'm not a surgery candidate for my back. but I can't get my knees replaced until my BMI is under a certain number. And so and I don't know what link there is, but I had a doctor suggest the GLP one meds. Erik Lawrence: Hmm. Jack Reed: and so I started that. Right around the time I met you, I think, about a year and a half ago. I can't remember exactly, because I got a little bit of that fog still. but Erik Lawrence: Mm-hmm. Jack Reed: I have been on that and I'm down 60 pounds. I'd like to lose another 40, maybe, maybe Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: a little bit more. and That has That has been a very interesting experience. Cause I just like, you know, as as things are as the pounds are are finally dropping away, it's like, man, how did I ever let it get this bad? Like how Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: how was I in a situation where I couldn't stop myself from or or didn't want to exercise or didn't want to do anything like that anymore? And one of the things that helped my son's in high school and you know, he's a young foot up and coming, you know, football guy. And so He was like, Dad, let's get some weight. And so, you know, when you don't when you're broken, you can't really can't really run. I mean, I had doctors tell me, don't even walk for exercise. The teeny tiny little bit of cartilage you have left in your knees is is is once that's gone, you're you're not even gonna you're gonna be you're gonna have a hard time walking. But I could do I could do some like low level weight training stuff with my son, and doing it with him made it a thousand times more interesting. I mean, I would I would have done it with him whether I wanted to or not. But that all of those, like my head's feeling better. I'm losing some weight. My body's feeling better. Like all of that stuff is finally going in the right direction together, as opposed to all of it going in the wrong direction, like it was for me for, you know, the past 10 years. So just that your head feeling better has a lot to do with your whether you're exit, Erik Lawrence: it's instrumental. Jack Reed: whether you're whether your body's working right. And if you're filling it with poison and you're, you know, doing horrible shit all the time, then that's only just gonna make that process of trying to be better harder. Erik Lawrence: Yeah, I I harp on the drinking but I used to be horrible at it too. So you know, but I I saw the error in my ways. And there's nothing positive to alcohol, I'm sorry. There's there's no good reason. 'Cause your liver's like you fucking asshole. As soon as you take a sip, everything else Jack Reed: Yeah. it's a Erik Lawrence: shuts down to process the toxic. Jack Reed: I think they say it's the number one contributor to all cause cancer. Like it's yeah, all that stuff. Erik Lawrence: and no doubt. Yeah, your body can't do anything properly. Jack Reed: Yeah. The one thing that I noticed the most about feeling better in my head was I did not I did not need to be drunk. Like I did not need to turn off my head to forget to to quiet the fucking screams and shit. Like I I didn't need it anymore. I s I mean, I'll I'll still have a beer. It's it doesn't it's not it doesn't control me. It's it it is absolutely Non factor. Now I don't know, and it's very interesting because the VA is talking about GOP using GOP1s for alcoholism. Because it does Erik Lawrence: Hmm. Jack Reed: take the craving away for certain things. I I think it's a just a brand new study. I just read about it this week. it's a it's a trial program to see if it they can prove its effectiveness in for that specific use. Now I can't say that because all of these things happened to me while that While I'm while I was taking that medicine too, whether that had any help or impact Erik Lawrence: Mm-hmm. Jack Reed: with me, cutting my drinking down, you know, 95%. Like, I'm not sure, but I know that Erik Lawrence: Hmm. Jack Reed: that helps me feel I now, I now wanna feel normal. Like I wanna feel in my Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: own space, in my own head. I don't want to be muted Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: or I don't know. I I'm Erik Lawrence: Well it numbs you out. Jack Reed: not trying to turn that switch off in my head with booze anymore. Erik Lawrence: Correct. Yeah, you're okay with it. Yeah, that's why people do it. I mean, it it dulls the senses, dulls the nerves, dulls everything. You know, and once the problem is once you feel good, you feel silly when you do something that makes you feel ungood, you know. You eat crappy food or you do Jack Reed: Yeah. Erik Lawrence: have a drink or two and then you get a headache. You're like It's your body saying, hey, what are you doing, dumbass? We were doing fine yesterday. Jack Reed: Yeah. Yeah. Erik Lawrence: Why why are you doing this to me? You know, so you gotta stay on that edge to so you'll listen to your body. That's amazing. That's a Jack Reed: Yeah, that's been a a great journey to to because what that does for your your self confidence and all of the things that that being out of shape and or being fat like, you know, you you just you're embarrassed to you know, you clothes don't fit, you know, you feel like a freaking fat slob, you know, especially for somebody that was a Marine that was and a SWAT dude and like all you know, I Erik Lawrence: Hm. Jack Reed: was a super, super fit guy for for most of my life and then to just have that all kind of go to shit was just A very, very all that did was just further contribute to my shitty situation. And fixing that it has the opposite effect. Erik Lawrence: But that's an that's an external in indicator. Jack Reed: Yeah. Erik Lawrence: Yeah, but that's an external indicator. When you see your buddy doing this shit, you go, Hey, what the fuck's going on here? You know? I mean and that's where we don't let guys fall. And just you know, if they tell you to shut the fuck up, that's one thing. But he might go, shit, yeah, you're right. I am I am on that road. You know, so I I I want us to identify each other, you know, and go, Hey, that's not working, sunshine. Get mad at me if you want. But what you're doing isn't working and y you're gonna find out later it's gonna get exponentially worse. So I I I think it's much more okay now to do that. You know, you're even saying within the departments, you know, they're taking it more serious. a and we have to. But us as the older guys, we we need to push that down, you know, and you know, support that command structure that allows that. Jack Reed: Yeah. The we had some some some cops that had gone through one of them was in a school shooting where a bunch of the students stuff that he had known, you know, were murdered and horrible, horrible like just whatever the worst possible situations. These guys had kind of gone through that and they came in and and and talked. One of the guys I worked with was Marine Corps vet from Afghanistan and I talked to him about that presentation. And you know, he was like, it wasn't really for me. You know, we kind of went into it and we started talking. And then he started talking about, you know, the guys from his unit that had committed suicide and the guys that he had spoken to to kind of help through that. And then like how what we think is going on at work with some of the people that we work with and all this other stuff. And I Hey dude, just so you know, we just had a 30 minute conversation about mental health because of that class you didn't like. So maybe it wasn't Erik Lawrence: Sure. Jack Reed: all Maybe it wasn't all for nothing, right? So that's the thing, is it's like Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: it doesn't it doesn't have to be that you learn some important thing through some some awareness training or whatever else. It Erik Lawrence: No. Jack Reed: it it has to open the door for conversations for the real people that are doing the real thing to talk to each other and be like, bro, because I've had that conversation like you have with a couple of my friends. It's like, dude, I've never seen you that Erik Lawrence: Good. Jack Reed: you are angry all the fucking time, dude. You are angry. You're too angry. You're angry about little shit. And that's not normal, dude. There's something like you need to you need to look at what's going on with you because you're not okay. And you know, and it was always the Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Yeah. Jack Reed: twenty year guys, you know, that everybody talks shit Erik Lawrence: Mm. Jack Reed: about because they're all old and broken down and, you know, they just they've been they've they've been at war too long. Erik Lawrence: Well it's it's added up, you know, their bucket's full. Yeah. Yeah, their bucket's full. Jack Reed: And so so it is important to to step to your friends because you like you said, we're better at recognizing it than any I shouldn't say that. We are as good at recognizing it as some of the professional people, because we've we've seen it in the mirror and so we know what it looks like on on our friends and coworkers. So Erik Lawrence: Yeah, well I've I've stopped people I didn't even know and said, Hey, what's going on? You know, so it's not hard for me to tell somebody that I know that. You know, it's i you know, they can tell you to pound sand, but it's gonna cause them to go, wait a minute, if somebody else can see it, why am I not paying attention to it? You know, instead of letting continue to fail. 'Cause they're failing themselves, they're failing the family, they're failing the unit, they're failing the department. You're not a hundred percent. So it's kinda hard to hard to put that into a a rational you know, let's just stay the stay the course. I think that's bullshit. You know, we should ever seek self and seek self improvement. You know, always try to get a little better at things. Gimme give me a couple points to leave on that you know, from the L E perspective and even like the BOP there, I mean You're in it every day, you know, and a GI's actually not in it every day. You know? You're seeing a nightmare more often. Jack Reed: I I rem it was I think the first time I'd ever reali like 'cause I you know, we all in America hold all of our special operators up on a pedestal and because a lot of the stuff that you guys do is superhuman, right? and so to like put myself in that category with the things that I was dealing with didn't seem like it was real either. And I remember Erik Lawrence: Mm. Jack Reed: it was a Joe Rogan podcast and I forget who the guest was, but They s were talking about PTSD trauma exposure and the difference between veterans and cops. and I think they were including some of the other fire paramedic fire you know, first responder type folks. Erik Lawrence: Mm-hmm. Jack Reed: And they said that, you know, even if a guy's done ten deployments, maybe they were three month deployments because they were in a super tier one unit, maybe they were six months deployments or You know, God forbid if you were a a s a leg soldier and you're doing 14 month deployments, but Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: that during that time, you know, they have these super acute exposures of of fear and trauma and death and carnage. Where a cop's exposure is low, but it's low for a really, really long time. For and for 20 years. And they said that the cop that's got 20 years of of of time on. has as much or more exposure to Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: the shit that causes these kinds of mental illnesses more than than your than your tier one operators. And I was like, I was, Erik Lawrence: Well I have no doubt. I have no doubt. Jack Reed: I I remember the f that hearing that and hearing it on something that I, you know, considered solid source of information. It was almost like validating. Like, hey, what's wrong with me Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: is is it's that's this is just the cost. And people don't People in America hate I shouldn't say many people in America hate the police. And if they knew what we gave of ourselves to try to keep bad people from hurting good people, I just I just wish they understood like what was really happening in the heads Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: of the guys that are out there doing their jobs, doing what they're told, and and the cost the cost that we pay to to try to keep people's lives safe and happy. You know what mean? Erik Lawrence: Normal. Jack Reed: Yeah. I mean the one thing I would say is that don't underestimate what's going on in your head, especially for the cops. if you do not pay attention to it early and if you don't take steps to to have some type of intervention, then you will if you stay long enough, because most cops don't stay for twenty nine years like I did. There are things that you can do along the way to keep keep from becoming me and to keep from imploding at the end. one of the things that I think is absolutely underutilized and and not discussed is the the influence of going to church and what that can mean to helping Erik Lawrence: Mm. Mm-hmm. Jack Reed: you process some of the bad stuff that you've seen and try to to to give it that that that that 30,000 view perspective of life and what we're here for and what we're trying to do and like understanding you where you're what your role is in that. one of the guys that work that I really respect that that seems to have kind of really nailed the work life balance piece, which I was a hundred percent the worst at, he's a big church guy. And that seems to really Erik Lawrence: Mm-hmm. Jack Reed: help balance him out and give him he's seen some of the same horrible shit as me. And he seems he at least seems to me like he's doing okay. And I think that's a part, a treatment piece Erik Lawrence: Yeah. I've seen that too in the military guys. Jack Reed: that yeah, I I think I don't think we talk about it enough. And I I I know that there are men's groups of Bible studies that are that are that are really, really helping guys out because they're afraid to to to go see a a doctor. and I I the the other takeaway I would have is is if you If you don't feel comfortable saying something to your boss at work at the department, you can go to your regular doctor, your Kaiser doctor, your sharp medical whatever doctor, and you can say, Hey, I would like to talk to somebody. Is that covered in my medical insurance? And it is. And so they can take you, and because of HIPAA and stuff, they're not going to report back to work. Now, if you're having suicidal Erik Lawrence: Yep, they can. Jack Reed: issues, everyone should be aware that that if you say that anywhere, anytime, that's a showstopper. they're gonna make sure that they could do things to keep you safe from that. And if you're a cop, you already know those rules. So just, you know, be aware of that, that that can get back. That's the one thing that can get back to work from from from anywhere, from Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: regardless of what treatment provider that you decide to go to. But it's more important to to take care of yourself and live as long as you can. And enjoy your life and enjoy your family, enjoy, you know, the things that you've accomplished, Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: than than to sp spend time in that in the darkness. Erik Lawrence: Yeah, it doesn't get better if you don't do anything, it's not going away. You you can't tough it out. Sorry. Doesn't work that way. So yeah, I I like those points. I mean I thought you told told a very good story and I don't know, I mean more people, you know, like your brother in law there, I mean he's right, you know, you gotta you gotta put the word out. People's gotta see where it's relevant and go, Hey, if that worked for him, it can work for me. Why be miserable? Jack Reed: Yeah. And the the the reputational piece, you know, because our reputation is is really like who we are. and if you are Erik Lawrence: Yeah, yeah, ego. Jack Reed: if you're over concerned with that, if you're more worried about what other people think about what's going on with you than what's actually going on with you, you're not gonna get better. And so I had to get to that point where I realized I had to take care of myself because being okay is the only way that I can. Best take care my family, which is my number one responsibility, my number one priority. Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: And I didn't allow it to be my number one priority for a really, really long part of my life because I thought what I was doing was a big deal and I was important. And, you know, putting bad guys in jail was it was was my responsibility. And you have you Erik Lawrence: Yeah, ego. We ha we have to tame our ego. Jack Reed: had to set that aside. Yeah, you gotta set that aside and make sure that you're okay before you can go back to doing that other thing. Otherwise you're gonna not do it well and you're gonna ruin your life and lives of people around you. Care about you. Erik Lawrence: Well, it's gonna it's gonna be a throwing the rock in the river, you know, it's gonna make a puddle and the ripples are just gonna be far reaching than you can even think. So once once you're aware of that, then it's on you to do something because you're like, Now I know I'm causing problems. So I I like it. I mean, if something else pops up, Jack, we can always do another one. You know, hell, maybe your brother in law or something, but yeah, I didn't think of the the prison issue, but yeah, that would every day you're going in there and dealing with that. I mean, you know you're gonna have a bad day. I'm sorry. You you're not gonna go in there and feel respected. So there's gotta be a lot of baggage to that. Jack Reed: Yeah. Erik Lawrence: Hmm. Well, yeah. Jack Reed: Well, I really appreciate you reaching out and asking me to do this. This was I have to say my wife Erik Lawrence: Well, I never I never thought I'd be doing this, so y you got me there. Jack Reed: My wife was walking around this morning going, Hey, are you okay? because she's quite aware of my situation, Erik Lawrence: No. Jack Reed: my, you know, my comings and goings. And she was like, putting Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Yeah. Jack Reed: off a little bit of a weird energy today. I said, Yeah, I'm gonna talk about some stuff that I'm not comfortable talking about. And I was like, I'm just nervous. I said, there's everything's okay. I'm just a little bit nervous. So it was Erik Lawrence: Yeah. That's good. Jack Reed: better to do it than to think about doing it. Erik Lawrence: Yeah, yeah, of course. yeah, the yeah, the the thought of death is worth worse than death itself. So no, we're we're good. You did you did a great job, Jack. So I appreciate you doing it for me. And you know, I was wondering, I'm like, Jack might not want to. I don't know, but you Roger's right up, so I appreciate that. Jack Reed: No, well that's what when somebody that took care of ya asks you, what do you say? Erik Lawrence: Yeah. Jack Reed: No, like that's another thing. Erik Lawrence: Yeah, you shouldn't, but you know. Yeah, who knows? Well, I'd love to get out and see you soon. that is a beautiful part of the country. I couldn't live there, sorry. But I do like visiting it. And hopefully I won't be out there for brain treatments. I can just visit, we'll have a fish taco and be done with it, you Jack Reed: Yeah, sounds great. Erik Lawrence: know? Yeah. So thank you very much, Jack. Jack Reed: Okay, thanks. Erik Lawrence: Yep, see you buddy. Jack Reed: Six.