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Mega Edition: Judge John Judge Warns The Media In Moscow About Their Behavior In Court (9/3/26) · Beyond The Horizon

0:00
Speaker 1: And welcome back to the program.
0:02
Speaker 2: We have a relatively significant development in the trial of
0:07
Speaker 2: Brian Kohlberger and the investigation overall into the murders in Moscow. Now,
0:13
Speaker 2: we've been dealing with a gag order draped over this
0:16
Speaker 2: case since pretty much a few days after Brian Kohlberger
0:20
Speaker 2: was arrested. Well, now, after hearing arguments from all parties involved,
0:25
Speaker 2: Judge Judge has decided that to pare back the gag
0:29
Speaker 2: order a little bit and allow more information to flow
0:33
Speaker 2: to the public. And I'm honestly shocked by this. I
0:36
Speaker 2: didn't think that Judge Judge was going to even pare
0:39
Speaker 2: it back a little bit. I thought that if anything,
0:42
Speaker 2: maybe the families would get a little more leeway to
0:46
Speaker 2: talk to the media, but it seems that he pared
0:48
Speaker 2: it back a little bit more than that.
0:51
Speaker 1: And I think that's a good idea. The more transparency here,
0:55
Speaker 1: the better.
0:55
Speaker 2: As long as it's not people who are working on
0:58
Speaker 2: the case as far as prosecutors or defense attorneys talking
1:02
Speaker 2: about privileged information, I don't think it's that big of
1:05
Speaker 2: a deal. And remember, just because there's interest around the
1:09
Speaker 2: case and just because people are interested in what's going
1:12
Speaker 2: on doesn't automatically make all of that interest, all of
1:16
Speaker 2: that attention, pre-prejudicial to Brian Kohlberger. And that's what the
1:21
Speaker 2: assumption of this overbroad gag order was doing. It was
1:25
Speaker 2: saying that automatically any attention placed on Brian Kohlberger or
1:30
Speaker 2: this investigation is prejudicial to Brian Kohlberger. And with Judge
1:34
Speaker 2: Judge pairing this ruling back, what he's saying is that, hey, look,
1:39
Speaker 2: we can't just assume that any attention around this case
1:42
Speaker 2: is going to be prejudicial against Kohlberger.
1:46
Speaker 1: We don't know that.
1:47
Speaker 2: But at the same time, he understands that a gag
1:50
Speaker 2: order is a good idea here, just not a gag
1:53
Speaker 2: order that is too overbroad and a gag order that
1:56
Speaker 2: is vague. Today's article is from the Lewiston Tribune, but
2:01
Speaker 2: it was originally posted in the Idaho Statesman. Headline, Judge
2:06
Speaker 2: Keeps Gag Order in Place in Kohlberger Case with Alterations.
2:11
Speaker 2: This article was authored by Alex Brizzi. Second District Judge
2:17
Speaker 2: John Judge denied several media outlets' request to dismiss the
2:21
Speaker 2: broad gag order attached to the criminal trial against Brian Korberger,
2:26
Speaker 2: the man accused of killing four University of Idaho students
2:29
Speaker 2: last November. But Judge did revise the document first issued
2:34
Speaker 2: by Magistrate Judge Megan Marshall and later amended by her
2:39
Speaker 2: and acknowledged the non-dissemination order was overbroad and vague in places.
2:44
Speaker 2: And I think that's a fair interpretation of this non-dissemination order.
2:48
Speaker 2: And I think that when Judge Marshall put it in place,
2:51
Speaker 2: she was just trying to cover all the bases, right?
2:53
Speaker 2: I think she went a little bit overboard, but her
2:57
Speaker 2: opinion was she wanted to protect the integrity of the case.
3:01
Speaker 2: And also she was thinking about, come trial time, making
3:04
Speaker 2: sure she had a jury pool that wasn't tainted. So
3:07
Speaker 2: I understand why she would use the gag order. It
3:10
Speaker 2: was the right thing to do. But it's always been
3:13
Speaker 2: way too vague and way too overbroad, as we've talked
3:16
Speaker 2: about many times here before. The most significant revision to
3:20
Speaker 2: the order that's now in place is that law enforcement
3:23
Speaker 2: personnel are no longer barred from speaking to the media
3:27
Speaker 2: about the quadruple homicide and that took the lives of
3:30
Speaker 2: Madison Mogan and Kaylee Gonsalves, both 21, and Zanna Kernodle
3:35
Speaker 2: and Ethan Chapin, both 20. And for me, I think
3:38
Speaker 2: it's a good idea that there's more transparency. There's way
3:41
Speaker 2: too many silly people out there with silly-ass theories about
3:44
Speaker 2: what goes on, and if there's no real information coming
3:47
Speaker 2: from quality sources, i.e. the investigators themselves or people involved,
3:53
Speaker 2: then it's very hard to discern what's real and what's not.
3:57
Speaker 2: So I'm glad that there's going to be more of
4:00
Speaker 2: an open channel of communication between the investigators and the media.
4:05
Speaker 2: That means, hopefully, that we're going to be more well-informed
4:09
Speaker 2: about what's going on. And if Brian Kohlberger is getting railroaded,
4:13
Speaker 2: like some people say he is, this will help us
4:16
Speaker 2: see that. And I know from my perspective, if I
4:19
Speaker 2: see somebody getting railroaded, I'm not just going to not
4:21
Speaker 2: say anything about it. If I thought that he was
4:24
Speaker 2: being prosecuted and the prosecution was, half-stepping or they were
4:29
Speaker 2: doing something out of line, we'd be talking about it
4:32
Speaker 2: because the state has to do everything the right way.
4:36
Speaker 2: There can be no deviation from what the law is.
4:39
Speaker 2: They have too much power in their hands. So the
4:41
Speaker 2: state has to be held accountable and they have to
4:44
Speaker 2: do everything directly by the book. And if they don't
4:47
Speaker 2: do that and Brian Koberger's constitutional rights are stepped on,
4:51
Speaker 2: don't you think it would be better off for him
4:53
Speaker 2: if everybody is aware of it? instead of his lawyers
4:57
Speaker 2: just saying that that's what's happening. So I think that
5:00
Speaker 2: this gag order getting pared back a little bit might
5:02
Speaker 2: be helpful to Brian Koberger as well, especially if he's
5:05
Speaker 2: being railroaded like his legal team and some people on
5:08
Speaker 2: the internet seem to believe. The four students were found
5:12
Speaker 2: stabbed to death November 13th in an off-campus Moscow house
5:16
Speaker 2: on King Road. As currently drafted, the amended non-dissemination order
5:21
Speaker 2: is arguably overbroad and vague in some areas. Judge wrote
5:26
Speaker 2: in the 29 page order, denying the request from the
5:29
Speaker 2: media organizations, including the Idaho statesman, challenging the gag order. However,
5:35
Speaker 2: it does serve a legitimate purpose and restricting the speech
5:38
Speaker 2: of attorneys participating in the case is reasonable.
5:42
Speaker 1: I agree with that.
5:43
Speaker 2: And I've said that from the beginning, that that's what
5:45
Speaker 2: the gag order should have said. Remember, the Supreme Court
5:49
Speaker 2: has ruled that gag orders, they can't be overbearing or vague.
5:54
Speaker 2: They have to be to the point and locked in.
5:57
Speaker 2: And if they're not, they're going to be challenged. And
5:59
Speaker 2: we see that here. Now, of course, this isn't a
6:02
Speaker 2: challenge that is completely successful, but Judge Judge has acknowledged
6:07
Speaker 2: that this.
6:08
Speaker 1: Gag order is overly broad and vague.
6:12
Speaker 2: And that's very important because now we're going to be
6:14
Speaker 2: able to have access to the Moscow investigators, people who
6:18
Speaker 2: were investigating the case in Pennsylvania, Washington, All of those folks,
6:23
Speaker 2: as far as law enforcement, they can talk about the
6:26
Speaker 2: case now. In the order, judge addressed the legal principles
6:30
Speaker 2: that allow the court to prohibit involved attorneys from making
6:34
Speaker 2: statements to the press outside of the courtroom. As long
6:37
Speaker 2: as it's clear what attorneys aren't able to discuss and
6:40
Speaker 2: that they are provided notice of what is prohibited speech.
6:45
Speaker 2: In his revised non-dissemination order, Judge outlined several particular instances
6:50
Speaker 2: in which attorneys may speak to the media, including information
6:54
Speaker 2: that's a public record, to request assistance from the public
6:58
Speaker 2: in order to obtain additional information or evidence or any
7:02
Speaker 2: statements that a reasonable lawyer would need to make to
7:06
Speaker 2: protect their client from the substantial, undue prejudicial effect of
7:11
Speaker 2: recent publicity. So this is for Brian Kohlberger as well, remember.
7:15
Speaker 2: Don't just think that this is for the state. Brian Kohlberger,
7:19
Speaker 2: his lawyer, can now speak to the media as well,
7:21
Speaker 2: as long as they adhere to the parameters that Judge
7:24
Speaker 2: Judge has set forth in the new non-dissemination order. So
7:28
Speaker 2: as long as all of those rules are followed, there
7:31
Speaker 2: should be no problems here. He also clarified what can't
7:35
Speaker 2: be discussed, including the identity of witnesses, expected testimony of
7:39
Speaker 2: a victim or a witness, and any comment on possible
7:43
Speaker 2: plea discussions or defendant statements. And that is all more
7:47
Speaker 2: than reasonable. And I command Judge Judge here for going
7:51
Speaker 2: against precedent of what Judge Marshall had done and updating
7:55
Speaker 2: this non-dissemination order. What it does is show me that
7:58
Speaker 2: he's willing to walk that fine line and respect the
8:01
Speaker 2: First Amendment while at the same time safeguarding the sanctity
8:05
Speaker 2: of the Sixth Amendment by making sure that Brian Kohlberger gets.
8:09
Speaker 1: A fair shake. More than two dozen media outlets last.
8:10
Speaker 2: Month resubmitted a lawsuit asking judge to strike down the
8:23
Speaker 2: gag order, arguing it suppressed the media's First Amendment rights.
8:28
Speaker 2: The lawsuit was initially filed with Idaho Supreme Court, but
8:31
Speaker 2: it was rejected after the justices said it didn't meet
8:35
Speaker 2: the extraordinary circumstances that needed to skip the district court level,
8:39
Speaker 2: according to previous statesmen reporting. So they just skipped a
8:43
Speaker 2: step there. They should have went to Judge Marshall to
8:46
Speaker 2: try and get the gag order pared back, but instead,
8:50
Speaker 2: They went to the Supreme Court of Idaho. The Supreme
8:53
Speaker 2: Court of Idaho said to them, look, we're not saying
8:56
Speaker 2: that you don't have a case here. We're not saying
8:58
Speaker 2: that you shouldn't bring this case to a judge, but
9:01
Speaker 2: you're in the wrong venue. You have to refile this
9:04
Speaker 2: with Judge Marshall. In a separate filing, Judge denied a
9:08
Speaker 2: request made by Shannon Gray, an attorney representing the Gonsalves family,
9:13
Speaker 2: to allow attorneys for the victims' families to speak to
9:16
Speaker 2: the media. While the speech of the victim's families is
9:19
Speaker 2: not and will not be restrained by court order, this
9:22
Speaker 2: case is indisputably high profile and the law requires the
9:26
Speaker 2: case to be tried in the court of law and
9:28
Speaker 2: not in the press or the public, Judge said in
9:31
Speaker 2: the order, upholding restraints on attorneys. And considering the contentious
9:36
Speaker 2: nature of Shannon Gray's relationship with not only the investigators
9:41
Speaker 2: but the court itself, I didn't expect them to throw
9:43
Speaker 2: him a bone at all. So, Nothing new for Shannon
9:47
Speaker 2: Gray here. He still has to adhere to the rules
9:50
Speaker 2: that have been set forth in this gag order. However,
9:53
Speaker 2: what we do have here is the families and clarification
9:56
Speaker 2: that the family members can speak to the media if
9:59
Speaker 2: they so choose. This gag order is not restricting their
10:02
Speaker 2: First Amendment rights. And that was my biggest issue. When
10:05
Speaker 2: you have people who can't speak about something, I'm not
10:08
Speaker 2: a big fan of that unless there are circumstances that
10:12
Speaker 2: are extreme. And this gag order, I always thought, was
10:15
Speaker 2: way too vague and way too broad. And according to
10:18
Speaker 2: Judge Judge's new ruling, he agrees. So that's where we
10:23
Speaker 2: stand as far as the gag order, folks. And I
10:25
Speaker 2: would expect some more information coming our way now that
10:28
Speaker 2: this has been pared back a bit and it's not
10:31
Speaker 2: as restrictive. Let's see what the investigators have for us.
10:35
Speaker 2: And let's see if any information begins to flow more freely.
10:38
Speaker 2: All right, folks, that's going to do it for this one.
10:41
Speaker 2: All of the information that goes with the episode can
10:44
Speaker 2: be found in the description box. What's up, everyone, and
10:48
Speaker 2: welcome back to the program. One of the issues that
10:52
Speaker 2: Judge Judge was talking about yesterday at Brian Kohlberger's court
10:57
Speaker 2: appearance was the presence of cameras in the courtroom. And
11:01
Speaker 2: he referred to the Lori Vallow trial as reference. And honestly,
11:06
Speaker 2: as much as I'm a fan of having cameras in
11:08
Speaker 2: the courtroom, I don't think he's wrong when he says
11:11
Speaker 2: the media has a responsibility not to zoom in on
11:15
Speaker 2: somebody for the whole trial. And that was a big
11:17
Speaker 2: criticism during the Lori Vallow trial that the media would
11:21
Speaker 2: zoom in only on Lori Vallow during the proceedings. Now,
11:26
Speaker 2: for me, I think a wide angle shot is more
11:30
Speaker 2: than sufficient, we don't need to zoom in on anybody.
11:33
Speaker 2: Just have a wide-angle shot that captures all of the
11:36
Speaker 2: proceedings so that people are aware of what's going on
11:39
Speaker 2: in the courtroom and there is a certain level of
11:43
Speaker 2: transparency that is present in such a high-profile case.
11:48
Speaker 1: But for that to.
11:49
Speaker 2: Happen, the media has to make sure that they're not
11:52
Speaker 2: focusing just on Brian Kohlberger. Today's article is from The
11:57
Speaker 2: Independent and the headline, Brian Kohlberger Judge makes reference to
12:01
Speaker 2: Lori Vallow case as suit-clad Idaho murder suspect appears in court.
12:08
Speaker 2: This article was authored by Rachel Sharp and Andrea Blanco.
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Speaker 2: And I know a lot of people are bugging that
12:15
Speaker 2: dude showed up to court rocking a suit, but remember,
12:18
Speaker 2: he's not guilty yet. So I understand when you want
12:22
Speaker 2: to come and give the appearance of an innocent man.
12:25
Speaker 2: I don't think there's anything really wrong with that, honestly.
12:28
Speaker 2: And I think that if you're going through the trial
12:31
Speaker 2: phase and you haven't been convicted yet, that when you
12:34
Speaker 2: go into the courtroom, you shouldn't be wearing a jumpsuit.
12:38
Speaker 2: You should wear a buttoned up shirt or a suit
12:41
Speaker 2: or something like that until the process has been gone
12:45
Speaker 2: through and the court declares you guilty. I don't see
12:49
Speaker 2: a problem with somebody rocking a suit to their trial
12:51
Speaker 2: or to a hearing leading up to that trial. But
12:55
Speaker 2: there are some people out there that want to see
12:57
Speaker 2: this dude rocking nothing but that jumpsuit. The judge overseeing
13:01
Speaker 2: Brian Koberger's death penalty case made a reference to another
13:05
Speaker 2: chilling Idaho murder case during the accused killer's latest court hearing.
13:10
Speaker 2: The 28-year-old criminology PhD student appeared in court in Moscow,
13:14
Speaker 2: Idaho on Tuesday as his lawyers launched their fight for
13:18
Speaker 2: his life in the death penalty case. Dressed in a
13:22
Speaker 2: dark suit and tie, he appeared... solemn as he entered
13:26
Speaker 2: the Latah County courtroom and sat with his defense. In
13:29
Speaker 2: the hearing, Judge John Judge pointed to the equally high-profile
13:34
Speaker 2: Lori Vallow murder case as he warned the media about
13:38
Speaker 2: the use of cameras in the courtroom. Judge John Judge
13:41
Speaker 2: said the outlets with cameras in the courtroom need to
13:45
Speaker 2: not focus solely on Mr. Kohlberger, warning that some media
13:50
Speaker 2: has been pushing the envelope. And again, there's no need
13:53
Speaker 2: for it in my opinion. We all know who's on trial.
13:55
Speaker 2: We all know why he's there. Let's just get the
13:58
Speaker 2: wide shot and avoid this sort of nonsense. He pointed
14:02
Speaker 2: out that this was happening in the Daybell case and
14:05
Speaker 2: warned that if it continues, cameras could be banned altogether
14:10
Speaker 2: from the courtroom. In Vallow's case, no cameras were allowed
14:14
Speaker 2: in court. at her trial where she was convicted of
14:17
Speaker 2: murdering her two children and conspiring to murder her new husband,
14:22
Speaker 2: Chad Daybell's first wife. And we have to rely on
14:25
Speaker 2: court reporting from this trial every day to do our recaps. Thankfully,
14:30
Speaker 2: it was quality reporting from Nate Eaton, But without cameras
14:35
Speaker 2: in the courtroom to observe it ourselves, we're relying heavily
14:40
Speaker 2: on members of the media to give us the blow-by-blow
14:44
Speaker 2: as to what's happening during the court proceedings. In Tuesday's hearing,
14:49
Speaker 2: Judge Judge also revised the gag order to clarify that
14:53
Speaker 2: it does not include members of law enforcement, investigators, and
14:57
Speaker 2: expert witnesses for both sides. So that's very important. Now
15:03
Speaker 2: law enforcement can't use this gag order as a reason
15:06
Speaker 2: not to answer basic questions, such as how much has
15:09
Speaker 2: this whole entire investigation cost, or other questions surrounding the
15:15
Speaker 2: investigation itself. As long as they're not talking about what's
15:18
Speaker 2: going on behind the scenes, then they have free reign
15:21
Speaker 2: now to answer questions. So I don't want to hear
15:24
Speaker 2: any no comment nonsense from the investigators. The judge had
15:29
Speaker 2: been expected to hear arguments on several motions filed by
15:32
Speaker 2: the defense in recent weeks, including seeking details about the
15:36
Speaker 2: DNA evidence, seeking details about the grand jury which returned
15:41
Speaker 2: the murder indictment against him, and issuing a stay on
15:44
Speaker 2: proceedings to put a pause on the case heading to trial.
15:49
Speaker 2: Some of those issues on motion to compel and discovery
15:53
Speaker 2: had been resolved out of court, while some will be
15:56
Speaker 2: argued at a later date. And that's what we talked
15:59
Speaker 2: about in the other episode, how sometimes behind the scenes,
16:02
Speaker 2: these lawyers are negotiating. So there might be a motion
16:06
Speaker 2: that has been filed with the court, but the lawyers
16:09
Speaker 2: are still trying to hammer something out behind the scenes.
16:13
Speaker 2: And we're just not privy to that information until they
16:16
Speaker 2: either come to an agreement or until the judge has
16:19
Speaker 2: to get involved. The defense did ask the judge to
16:23
Speaker 2: order the prosecution to hand over some evidence in the case.
16:28
Speaker 2: Among the evidence requested by the defense are training records
16:32
Speaker 2: of three police officers who interviewed critical witnesses, information about
16:37
Speaker 2: the FBI team leading the criminal probe, and background on
16:41
Speaker 2: the tip that led to the search of Mr. Kohlberger's
16:45
Speaker 2: white Hyundai and cell phone records cited in the probable
16:48
Speaker 2: cause affidavit. And like I said in the other episode,
16:52
Speaker 2: I think that all of that stuff should be turned over.
16:55
Speaker 2: I don't see how any of that stuff is something
16:57
Speaker 2: that shouldn't be given during discovery. Insisting it is not
17:02
Speaker 2: a fishing expedition, Mr. Koberger's attorney said they need the
17:06
Speaker 2: evidence to be able to give him a strong defense,
17:09
Speaker 2: particularly now that he is facing a death sentence. And
17:13
Speaker 2: that does knock it into another hemisphere. Once you're talking
17:17
Speaker 2: about a death penalty case, you're now talking about a
17:19
Speaker 2: higher standard to get this conviction.
17:22
Speaker 1: And it leads me to believe, as I've.
17:24
Speaker 2: Said earlier, that the state of Idaho has their stuff
17:28
Speaker 2: together here and they're ready to go. There is a
17:31
Speaker 2: heightened standard now that the state has announced its intent
17:34
Speaker 2: to seek the death penalty. And these are very relevant
17:37
Speaker 2: pieces of information, Mr. Kohlberger's attorney said. Prosecutors argued that
17:43
Speaker 2: most of those materials have already been made available to
17:47
Speaker 2: the defense. The state also noted that that the officer's
17:50
Speaker 2: training records do not pertain to the case and could
17:54
Speaker 2: set an unfavorable precedent in future cases. And I happen
17:58
Speaker 2: to agree with that. So every time someone gets arrested,
18:02
Speaker 2: the defendant can request the records of the arresting officer?
18:07
Speaker 2: What's the point in that? Seems like just more clerical work.
18:10
Speaker 2: Here's an idea. Focus on your guilt or your innocence.
18:14
Speaker 1: Mr.
18:14
Speaker 2: Kohlberger's defense said that while there were more than 120
18:18
Speaker 2: officers who worked in the murder investigation, they were only
18:22
Speaker 2: requesting records from the three of them who played a
18:25
Speaker 2: critical role by collecting evidence, following up on tips, and
18:29
Speaker 2: conducting more than a dozen interviews. The judge told the
18:34
Speaker 2: court that he will be issuing a written ruling with
18:37
Speaker 2: the evidence that the prosecution must turn in by July 14th.
18:41
Speaker 1: So that's the deadline.
18:43
Speaker 2: And... By that time, if they don't turn over the
18:46
Speaker 2: evidence that's in their possession, then the judge is going
18:49
Speaker 2: to order them to do so. In a series of
18:53
Speaker 2: recent court filings, the defenses argued that the prosecution should
18:57
Speaker 2: hand over all information about the genetic genealogy and DNA
19:02
Speaker 2: evidence which ties Mr. Kohlberger to the murders of the
19:06
Speaker 2: four slain students, Kaylee Gonsalves, Madison Mogan, Ethan Chapin, and
19:11
Speaker 2: Zanna Kernodal. This includes information about the scientists who carried
19:16
Speaker 2: out the DNA testing and what it was that led
19:19
Speaker 2: authorities to suspect him in the first place. Investigators linked
19:24
Speaker 2: the 28-year-old criminology PhD student to the murders through a
19:29
Speaker 2: military knife sheath that the killer allegedly left behind at
19:33
Speaker 2: the scene of the 13th of November stabbings. So that
19:37
Speaker 2: is the most critical piece of evidence. I want to
19:40
Speaker 2: reiterate that. And unless Brian Kohlberger's team can knock this
19:44
Speaker 2: evidence down and put some doubt there, there's going to
19:48
Speaker 2: be a big problem for his... defense overall. Because I
19:52
Speaker 2: don't see how they can avoid this sheath coming back
19:55
Speaker 2: to really haunt them. And it's not what I think.
19:58
Speaker 2: It's not what you think. It's not what some knucklehead
20:01
Speaker 2: named The Sleuthy thinks on Twitter. It's what the Jerry's
20:05
Speaker 2: going to think. And the jury is going to want
20:08
Speaker 2: answers as to why this DNA is on the sheath.
20:13
Speaker 2: The sheath was found next to Mogan's body in her
20:15
Speaker 2: bed on the third floor of the student home. DNA
20:19
Speaker 2: discovered on the sheath was found to be a match
20:21
Speaker 2: to Mr. Koberger after the FBI checked the sample against
20:25
Speaker 2: genetic genealogy databases and tipped off local authorities.
20:30
Speaker 1: According to prosecutors.
20:31
Speaker 2: Now, remember, the FBI was heavily involved here and not
20:35
Speaker 2: just the FBI, but the Behavioral Analysis Unit, BAU. And
20:40
Speaker 2: they're the ones that are in charge of serial killers
20:44
Speaker 2: and all of the other freakazoids that are running around society.
20:48
Speaker 2: So they were involved from the very beginning, building a
20:51
Speaker 2: profile here and putting together some evidence. So the FBI
20:55
Speaker 2: had all their big dogs involved here when it comes
20:58
Speaker 2: to the murders in Moscow. After collecting trash from the
21:03
Speaker 2: suspect's parents' home in the Pocono Mountains, a familial match
21:07
Speaker 2: from Mr. Koberger's father was first made to the knife
21:10
Speaker 2: sheath before a statistical match was made to the accused
21:13
Speaker 2: killer himself through DNA samples taken following his arrest on
21:18
Speaker 2: the 30th of December.
21:20
Speaker 1: But Mr.
21:20
Speaker 2: Koberger's defense is seeking to cast doubt on the state's
21:24
Speaker 2: use of genetic genealogy in the case. Of course they are. Listen,
21:29
Speaker 2: Ann Taylor understands what's going on here. And she understands
21:32
Speaker 2: what evidence is really damning to her client. And that
21:36
Speaker 2: evidence is the DNA that is on the knife sheath.
21:40
Speaker 2: Because without that, all of this other stuff unravels. In
21:44
Speaker 2: a court filing submitted last week, his attorneys insisted he
21:48
Speaker 2: has no connection to the four slain students and claimed
21:51
Speaker 2: that DNA from three other unidentified men was also found
21:56
Speaker 2: at the Grizzly crime scene. DNA from two other men
21:59
Speaker 2: was found inside the off-campus student home, while DNA from
22:03
Speaker 2: a third unknown man was found on a glove found
22:07
Speaker 2: outside the property on November 20th, the documents state.
22:11
Speaker 1: Yeah?
22:12
Speaker 2: How many of those DNA profiles were found on the
22:15
Speaker 2: knife sheath? By December 17th, 2022, Lab analysts were aware
22:22
Speaker 2: of two additional male DNA patterns within the house where
22:26
Speaker 2: the deceased were located and another unknown male DNA on
22:30
Speaker 2: a glove found outside the residence on November 20th of 2022. Mr.
22:35
Speaker 2: Kohlberger's attorney, Jay Logsdon, writes in the filing, To this date,
22:40
Speaker 2: the defense is unaware of what sort of testing, if any,
22:45
Speaker 2: was conducted on these samples other than the STR DNA profiles.
22:50
Speaker 2: So they're trying to sow a little bit of doubt here.
22:52
Speaker 2: But as we know, this house was notorious for having
22:55
Speaker 2: people over. So unless this DNA is on the knife sheath,
23:00
Speaker 2: you know, the unknown DNA, then I don't even care.
23:04
Speaker 1: What does it even mean?
23:05
Speaker 2: Considering that those DNA patterns weren't found on the knife sheath.
23:09
Speaker 2: So you see, it all comes back to that knife sheath, folks.
23:12
Speaker 2: And that knife sheath is going to prove to be
23:15
Speaker 2: Brian Koberger's undoing, in my opinion. Further, these three separate
23:20
Speaker 2: and distinct male DNA profiles were not identified through CODIS,
23:25
Speaker 2: leading to the conclusion that the profiles do not belong
23:28
Speaker 2: to Mr.
23:28
Speaker 1: Kohlberger.
23:30
Speaker 2: The defense also said that there is no DNA evidence
23:33
Speaker 2: from the victims in Mr. Kohlberger's apartment, office, home, or vehicle.
23:40
Speaker 2: The suspected killer's legal team accused prosecutors of hiding its
23:44
Speaker 2: entire case from the defendant by trying to keep its
23:47
Speaker 2: method Of genetic genealogy investigation.
23:51
Speaker 1: A secret. That's a bunch of nonsense. Come on.
23:54
Speaker 2: Now of course the defense is going to do that.
23:57
Speaker 2: They're going to assert this. Because what happens is. People
24:00
Speaker 2: will pick up on that. And they'll start writing headlines.
24:03
Speaker 2: They'll start writing articles. And that's exactly what the defense wants.
24:07
Speaker 2: You want to talk about. Tainting a jury pool. Well
24:10
Speaker 2: they're trying to do the opposite. What they're trying to do.
24:13
Speaker 2: Is shine a different light on Brian Kohlberger.
24:16
Speaker 1: End on Brian.
24:17
Speaker 2: Koberger's situation and make it seem like he is being
24:20
Speaker 2: railroaded by the state of Idaho. They claim that authorities
24:24
Speaker 2: don't want the suspect to see how many other people
24:27
Speaker 2: the FBI chose to ignore during their investigation. The defense
24:32
Speaker 2: is also demanding prosecutors hand over the DNA profiles of
24:37
Speaker 2: the three other males whose DNA was found at the scene.
24:41
Speaker 2: In a separate motion, the defense is also seeking the
24:44
Speaker 2: court to force prosecutors to to hand over all records
24:47
Speaker 2: around the grand jury proceedings, which culminated in Mr. Kohlberger's
24:51
Speaker 2: indictment on four counts of murder and one burglary charge.
24:56
Speaker 2: The legal team argues it is crucial to him fighting
24:59
Speaker 2: the indictment against him. A third motion being argued is
25:03
Speaker 2: around the stay of proceedings, with the defense arguing that
25:06
Speaker 2: the case should be put on hold until the matter
25:09
Speaker 2: of the grand jury record is resolved in court. Mr.
25:13
Speaker 2: Kohlberger's latest court appearance came one day after prosecutors announced
25:18
Speaker 2: that they are seeking the death penalty against them, saying
25:21
Speaker 2: that the murder was especially heinous, atrocious, or cruel, manifesting
25:27
Speaker 2: exceptional depravity, and that the defendant showed utter disregard for
25:31
Speaker 2: human life. I don't see anything untrue about that statement,
25:36
Speaker 2: especially considering the brutality we saw with these murders.
25:40
Speaker 1: Mr.
25:41
Speaker 2: Koberger is scheduled to stand trial on October 2nd for
25:44
Speaker 2: the murders of Gonsalves, Mogan, Kernodle, and Chapin.
25:49
Speaker 1: Mr.
25:49
Speaker 2: Koberger is accused of breaking into an off-campus student home
25:53
Speaker 2: on King Road in the early hours of November 13th
25:57
Speaker 2: and stabbing the four students to death with a large
26:00
Speaker 2: military-style knife. Two other female roommates lived with the three
26:04
Speaker 2: women at the property and were home at the time
26:07
Speaker 2: of the massacre but survived. One of the survivors, Dylan Mortensen,
26:12
Speaker 2: came face to face with the mass killer, dressed head
26:15
Speaker 2: to toe in black and with bushy eyebrows as he
26:18
Speaker 2: left the home in the aftermath of the murders, according
26:21
Speaker 2: to the criminal affidavit. For more than six weeks, the
26:25
Speaker 2: college town of Moscow was plunged into fear as the
26:28
Speaker 2: accused killer remained at large with no arrest made and
26:31
Speaker 2: no suspects named. Then, on December 30th, law enforcement suddenly
26:37
Speaker 2: swooped on Mr. Koberger's family home in Albrightville, Pennsylvania, and
26:41
Speaker 2: arrested him for the quadruple murders. The motives remain unknown,
26:46
Speaker 2: and it is still unclear what connection the WSU PhD
26:51
Speaker 2: student had to the University of Idaho students, if any,
26:54
Speaker 2: prior to the murders. The murder weapon, a fixed blade knife,
26:58
Speaker 2: has still never been found. As a criminal justice PhD
27:03
Speaker 2: student at WSU, Mr. Kohlberger lived just 15 minutes from
27:07
Speaker 2: the victims over the Idaho-Washington border in Pullman. He had
27:12
Speaker 2: moved there from Pennsylvania and began his studies there that summer,
27:16
Speaker 2: having just completed his first semester before his arrest. Before this,
27:21
Speaker 2: he studied criminology at DeSalas University, first as an undergraduate
27:26
Speaker 2: and then finishing his graduate studies in June of 2022.
27:32
Speaker 2: While there, he studied under renowned forensic psychologist Catherine Ramsland,
27:37
Speaker 2: who interviewed the BTK serial killer and co-wrote the book
27:41
Speaker 2: Confession of a Serial Killer, the untold story of Dennis Rader,
27:46
Speaker 2: the BTK killer, with him. He also carried out a
27:50
Speaker 2: research project to understand how emotions and psychological traits influence
27:55
Speaker 2: decision-making when committing a crime. Well, folks, the fight is
27:59
Speaker 2: certainly on in Idaho between Brian Koberger and the prosecutors.
28:04
Speaker 2: And it looks like they're taking the gloves off and
28:07
Speaker 2: they're getting ready for quite the bare knuckle dust up.
28:11
Speaker 2: And we're going to be here every step of the
28:13
Speaker 2: way following along with what happens. All right, folks, that's
28:17
Speaker 2: going to do it for this one. All of the
28:19
Speaker 2: information that goes with the episode can be found in
28:22
Speaker 2: the description box.
28:24
Speaker 1: Judy was happy holidays and welcome back to the program.
28:28
Speaker 2: As we're all aware at this point, Judge Megan Marshall
28:31
Speaker 2: has dropped a gag order over the Brian Koberger trial
28:36
Speaker 2: and investigation. And because of that gag order, there has
28:40
Speaker 2: been limited news coming out from official channels. But even
28:45
Speaker 2: with that gag order thrown over this case, the media
28:49
Speaker 2: is still causing irreparable harm when it comes to the
28:53
Speaker 2: trial of Brian Koberger. And this was said by Judge
28:58
Speaker 2: John C. Judge, who sat in for the Brian Kohlberger arraignment. So,
29:03
Speaker 2: let's get into this article from KTVB7, and let's see
29:07
Speaker 2: what Judge Judge had to say. Headline, Judge warns of
29:12
Speaker 2: irreparable harm in Idaho murder case. There is a lot
29:16
Speaker 2: of irreparable harm from the media that is affecting a
29:19
Speaker 2: fair trial. Judge John C. Judge said, this is a
29:23
Speaker 2: very high profile case. I wonder if the defense, is
29:27
Speaker 2: going to sink their teeth into that. Come later on
29:30
Speaker 2: when it's time for appeal, I wouldn't be shocked to
29:32
Speaker 2: see them add that to part of their push if
29:35
Speaker 2: and when Brian Kohlberger is convicted at an appeal. because
29:40
Speaker 2: they'll say that even the judge judge judge thinks that
29:44
Speaker 2: the media caused irreparable harm to the trial so how
29:48
Speaker 2: could Brian Kohlberger ever get a fair trial don't think
29:52
Speaker 2: they won't argue that because they will remember When the
29:56
Speaker 2: evidence is stacked against you, like it is against Brian Koberger,
29:59
Speaker 2: or appears to be against Brian Koberger, your only hope
30:03
Speaker 2: is technicalities and loopholes. And for my money, I don't
30:07
Speaker 2: think the media has enough information at this point to
30:10
Speaker 2: cause irreparable harm. This article was authored by Alexandra Dugan.
30:17
Speaker 2: A Latah County judge issued a stark warning following Brian
30:21
Speaker 2: Koberger's arraignment that the media... has done irreparable harm to
30:26
Speaker 2: Kohlberger's case and could affect his right to a fair trial.
30:30
Speaker 2: Talk about getting an assist from a judge. This dude
30:33
Speaker 2: just rides in in his Buick Regal or whatever and
30:36
Speaker 2: starts talking about irreparable harm, even though there's a gag
30:40
Speaker 2: order thrown over the case.
30:41
Speaker 1: What does that even mean?
30:42
Speaker 2: Does he want the media not to talk about Brian
30:45
Speaker 2: Kohlberger at all? Because that's not how it works. It's
30:49
Speaker 2: up to the jury to to remain untainted. The media's
30:52
Speaker 2: job is to report the news. I know they don't
30:55
Speaker 2: do that very well these days, but the point stands,
30:58
Speaker 2: that's what their job is supposed to be. And if
31:01
Speaker 2: they don't have access to that news, how can they
31:03
Speaker 2: be causing irreparable harm? Judge John C. Judge told the
31:08
Speaker 2: court that the media and attorneys alike have a larger
31:12
Speaker 2: responsibility to the Sixth Amendment, the right to a speedy trial,
31:16
Speaker 2: by an impartial jury. This is where it gets tangled.
31:19
Speaker 2: because the argument now becomes a constitutional one. At what
31:22
Speaker 2: point does his Sixth Amendment impede on other people's First
31:27
Speaker 2: Amendment and vice versa? So this is where the court
31:30
Speaker 2: has to step in and be the mediator and figure
31:33
Speaker 2: out the best course forward. After Kohlberger, the man accused
31:38
Speaker 2: of killing four University of Idaho students, stood silent on
31:41
Speaker 2: Monday during his plea and the not guilty plea was
31:45
Speaker 2: entered on his behalf, a hearing was held to decide
31:47
Speaker 2: whether when to hear arguments on a non-dissemination order within
31:52
Speaker 2: the case. Known as a gag order, it forces those
31:56
Speaker 2: involved in the investigation or with knowledge of any evidence
32:01
Speaker 2: to abstain from commenting.
32:03
Speaker 1: About the case.
32:04
Speaker 2: On February 6th, the Associated Press and other local Idaho
32:08
Speaker 2: media outlets filed a motion to nullify the gag order
32:12
Speaker 2: in the case, citing First Amendment violations. A scheduling conference
32:16
Speaker 2: for arguments on this motion, was held at 11 a.m.
32:20
Speaker 2: in front of the judge. And remember, there's over 30
32:23
Speaker 2: media organizations making this push to try and get this
32:27
Speaker 2: information to the public. Now, of course, remember, they're self-serving.
32:31
Speaker 2: But when the media is talking about this and the
32:33
Speaker 2: reason they're going to these lengths, they'll say it's about
32:36
Speaker 2: the First Amendment, but really, it's about driving clicks. It's
32:40
Speaker 2: about driving people to their websites. It's about people reading
32:44
Speaker 2: their magazines. That's what it comes down to. But at
32:47
Speaker 2: the same time, They are providing a service, should be anyway,
32:51
Speaker 2: to the people, to the public, and providing a transparent
32:54
Speaker 2: look at the process. But at what point does that
32:59
Speaker 2: process impede Brian Kohlberger's right to the Sixth Amendment? And
33:04
Speaker 2: that's the big question here. And that's the question that
33:07
Speaker 2: Judge Judge is going to have to figure out. Ultimately,
33:11
Speaker 2: he decided to hear the AP's arguments on the matter
33:14
Speaker 2: on June 9th at 1.30 p.m. That will include discussions
33:19
Speaker 2: on whether or not to have cameras in the courtroom
33:21
Speaker 2: during future proceedings, but not without some words for the
33:25
Speaker 2: AP's attorneys and the media sitting, watching, and writing in
33:30
Speaker 2: the courtroom. So, of course, he's going to admonish the
33:33
Speaker 2: media a bit, right? Seems like that kind of judge,
33:36
Speaker 2: a guy that doesn't really want any nonsense from the
33:42
Speaker 2: anything he's working on. And if this is any example
33:46
Speaker 2: of how he feels, I wouldn't expect him to be
33:50
Speaker 2: any less strict as far as a gag order goes.
33:54
Speaker 2: And also keep in mind, judges hate to go against precedent.
33:57
Speaker 2: So if another judge has already slapped this with a
34:00
Speaker 2: gag order, it would take a lot of evidence pointing
34:04
Speaker 2: to the other way for this judge to go back
34:07
Speaker 2: on the precedent already set by Judge Marshall. Irreparable harm
34:11
Speaker 2: goes both ways, Judge said. Arguing that the First Amendment
34:15
Speaker 2: is absolute is also troubling. The Associated Press needs to
34:20
Speaker 2: tone it down. So basically telling the Associated Press and
34:24
Speaker 2: the media that their First Amendment rights are not going
34:27
Speaker 2: to trump Brian Kohlberger's Sixth Amendment right, at least not
34:31
Speaker 2: in his courtroom. And I think that's a bit of
34:34
Speaker 2: foreshadowing for what we'll see when he makes his ruling.
34:38
Speaker 2: Judge said that some of the coverage from certain media
34:41
Speaker 2: outlets is concerning. Well, what does that even mean, though?
34:45
Speaker 2: What are they covering of substance? They're talking about the case,
34:48
Speaker 2: but they don't have their hands on anything that's worthwhile,
34:52
Speaker 2: nothing that's going to change a jury's interpretation of what
34:55
Speaker 2: the evidence is. So I don't really know what he's
34:58
Speaker 2: prattling on about here. And I get it, right? We
35:01
Speaker 2: want to make sure that this is fair, that the
35:03
Speaker 2: process is fair for everybody. The last thing we want
35:06
Speaker 2: is Kohlberger to have a leg to stand on when
35:09
Speaker 2: all is said and done and cry about how the
35:11
Speaker 2: process wasn't fair for him. But the judge also has
35:15
Speaker 2: to be aware that the public has rights as well.
35:19
Speaker 2: And unless the media starts releasing leaks from people who
35:23
Speaker 2: are involved in the case as far as an official capacity,
35:27
Speaker 2: I think his concerns here are a bit overblown. Meanwhile, cameras,
35:33
Speaker 2: media tents, and reporters remained outside in the Latah County
35:37
Speaker 2: Courthouse parking lot to fill viewers in on what happened
35:40
Speaker 2: during Kohlberger's arraignment. Journalists from across the United States planted
35:44
Speaker 2: their feet in Moscow to get a glimpse of the
35:47
Speaker 2: proceedings for themselves. Judge said his job is to consider
35:51
Speaker 2: the harms or the injuries that could occur in this
35:54
Speaker 2: case from anyone. So basically saying he has to be
35:58
Speaker 2: aware and cognizant of everything that's going on. And at
36:03
Speaker 2: the end of the day, he's going to be the
36:05
Speaker 2: one to make the decision about what happens in that
36:08
Speaker 2: courtroom and what happens outside of it as well when
36:12
Speaker 2: it comes to the gag order. We all have constitutional
36:15
Speaker 2: responsibilities to the First and the Sixth Amendment. What I
36:19
Speaker 2: am seeing in the newspaper is no discussion about the
36:22
Speaker 2: importance of the Sixth Amendment, Judge said. Look, It is
36:26
Speaker 2: huge that every single one of those constitutional amendments is respected.
36:32
Speaker 2: And that goes for somebody like Brian Kohlberger and his
36:35
Speaker 2: constitutional rights as well. No matter how much circumstantial evidence
36:40
Speaker 2: we have seen, and no matter how much we believe
36:43
Speaker 2: that he is guilty, he has not been convicted yet.
36:46
Speaker 2: So he has every right, just like every one of us,
36:50
Speaker 2: to have his constitutional rights protected. And that's what the
36:55
Speaker 2: judge is trying to say here.
36:57
Speaker 1: And I get it.
36:58
Speaker 2: And I'm on board with that 100%. Brian Kohlberger deserves
37:02
Speaker 2: a right to a fair trial. But at the same time,
37:05
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean he should be deflected from any kind
37:08
Speaker 2: of criticism by the public. Because the public is looking
37:12
Speaker 2: at this evidence and it doesn't look good for Brian Kohlberger.
37:16
Speaker 2: So when you have all of that evidence presented and
37:19
Speaker 2: you're looking at it and you put it all together,
37:22
Speaker 2: it's very hard to come to any other conclusion besides
37:26
Speaker 2: that the evidence compiled and released to the public points
37:29
Speaker 2: only to one person. And also remember, it's not the
37:33
Speaker 2: public's job to be the jury. The public's going to
37:36
Speaker 2: have its opinion one way or the other. And that
37:39
Speaker 2: should never, ever have any sort of sway within the court.
37:44
Speaker 2: And we've seen it with a lot of high profile
37:46
Speaker 2: cases before. And they were able to find juries for
37:49
Speaker 2: those cases. We saw it with Lori Vallow. We saw
37:52
Speaker 2: it with Murdoch. We saw it with Ghislaine Maxwell. And
37:55
Speaker 2: on and on and on again. And we'll see it
37:57
Speaker 2: once again here with Brian Koberger. There'll be some wrangling.
38:01
Speaker 2: There'll be some arguing. But when all is said and done,
38:04
Speaker 2: we'll get the 16 jurors. And of those 16, 12
38:08
Speaker 2: of them will be the jurors that are going to
38:10
Speaker 2: render a decision and a verdict on Brian Koberger.
38:14
Speaker 1: And I have no doubt.
38:16
Speaker 2: Kohlberger is considered innocent until proven guilty in a court
38:19
Speaker 2: of law. His trial is set for October 2nd, since
38:23
Speaker 2: the judge issued a not guilty plea for him. But
38:26
Speaker 2: that could change if there is good cause to delay it.
38:29
Speaker 2: And like I said earlier, I would expect it to
38:31
Speaker 2: be delayed. I would expect this trial to definitely be
38:33
Speaker 2: delayed a little bit. And when that would be, I
38:36
Speaker 2: don't know. But it's very complex. There's a lot of
38:39
Speaker 2: moving parts and there's a lot of stuff that has
38:41
Speaker 2: to be dealt with on both sides. So what does
38:46
Speaker 2: standing silent during a plea really mean? Former Ada County
38:51
Speaker 2: Chief Deputy Prosecutor Gene Fisher told KTVB that standing silent
38:56
Speaker 2: doesn't have any detrimental effect on a defendant. Standing silent
39:01
Speaker 2: could help the defense if they intend to file a
39:04
Speaker 2: motion of Kohlberger's competency. They wouldn't want him assisting the court.
39:08
Speaker 2: by answering legal questions and then turn around and file
39:12
Speaker 2: 18 to 11 motion asserting he is not presently competent
39:16
Speaker 2: to stand trial. I obviously don't know if that is
39:20
Speaker 2: considered at all. Just saying that is about the only
39:24
Speaker 2: upside to standing silent, Fisher said. And I don't know
39:27
Speaker 2: if he'd try that move, saying he's not competent, considering
39:30
Speaker 2: the dude's a narcissist. This means that he did not
39:34
Speaker 2: enter a plea, but a plea was entered on his
39:36
Speaker 2: behalf to move forward. Kohlberger has the right to remain
39:40
Speaker 2: silent during his plea, as specified under the Fifth Amendment.
39:44
Speaker 2: Anything a defendant says or does in a proceeding or
39:48
Speaker 2: interview is can be held against them at a later date.
39:52
Speaker 2: Kohlberger is accused of entering a home at 1122 King
39:56
Speaker 2: Road in Moscow on November 13, 2022, with the intent
40:00
Speaker 2: to murder a probable cause affidavit states. He is charged
40:04
Speaker 2: with four counts of first-degree murder in the stabbing deaths
40:07
Speaker 2: of Madison Mogan, Kaylee Gonsalves, Zanna Kernodle, and her boyfriend,
40:12
Speaker 2: Ethan Chapin. The Gonsalves family has hired attorney Shannon Gray
40:17
Speaker 2: to represent them, who has filed a motion in relation
40:20
Speaker 2: to the gag order. He aims to clarify or amend
40:24
Speaker 2: the order so he can speak on behalf of the
40:26
Speaker 2: family more freely. Gray's hearing regarding the non-dissemination order is
40:31
Speaker 2: also scheduled for June 9th at 1030 a.m. So there's
40:36
Speaker 2: a quick update on what's going on with the gag
40:39
Speaker 2: order and what Judge Judge had to say about the
40:42
Speaker 2: media and irreparable harm. So we'll see what happens here
40:46
Speaker 2: when he makes his decision. But I highly doubt we're
40:49
Speaker 2: going to hear anything different than we heard from Judge Marshall.
40:53
Speaker 2: And that's because of a lot of the factors that
40:55
Speaker 2: he brought up in his initial statement and the fact
40:59
Speaker 2: that precedent has already been set. All right, folks, that's
41:03
Speaker 2: going to do it for this one. All of the
41:04
Speaker 2: information that goes with the episode can be found in
41:07
Speaker 2: the description box.