Latest / The Game Business Show / How six million Call of Duty players sent Helldivers 2 into a tailspin

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How six million Call of Duty players sent Helldivers 2 into a tailspin · The Game Business Show

0:00
SPEAKER_01: We're running a live service game.
0:01
SPEAKER_01: People can't be off for the next three months,
0:03
but that's what happens in Sweden because we take our summer
0:05
vacations very seriously.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: We did not make Helldivers for six million Call of Duty players,
0:12
but we do now have six million Call of Duty players who've
0:15
bought our game.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to The Game Business Show with me, Christopher Dring.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: Today we are speaking with the new-ish CEO of Arrowhead,
0:26
SPEAKER_00: Shams Georgiani,
0:26
SPEAKER_00: 12 months on from the surprise success of Helldivers 2.
0:31
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0:32
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0:36
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0:45
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0:47
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0:49
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0:50
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0:51
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SPEAKER_00: That way you won't miss anything.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: But that's enough of that.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: Shams, welcome to the show.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm honored to be here.
1:02
Well,
1:03
we spoke last year when you took this job of being the CEO of Arrowhead.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Is it quite a year?
1:10
SPEAKER_00: No, it's nine months.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: But a year in Arrowhead is seven normal years.
1:18
It's been quite a while,
1:19
it feels like,
1:19
especially in the first year of Helldivers.
1:21
SPEAKER_01: It's been one heck of a roller coaster year,
1:25
SPEAKER_01: but I mean,
1:26
SPEAKER_01: that's why I took the job,
1:27
SPEAKER_01: because I wanted a fun adventure and oh boy,
1:30
SPEAKER_01: has it been an adventure.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: Well, it certainly started very strongly.
1:33
Johan,
1:34
who's,
1:35
I think,
1:35
stepping away now for a little bit,
1:37
taking a bit of a sabbatical.
1:38
Have you been able to successfully keep him away from the
1:41
running of the studio?
1:44
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:44
SPEAKER_01: Johan and I have known each other for 16 years,
1:47
SPEAKER_01: and he wouldn't have asked me to join unless he felt,
1:50
SPEAKER_01: I hope so,
1:51
SPEAKER_01: he could trust me.
1:52
So I think we naturally fell into a rhythm of being able to
1:56
support each other.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: We talk often in role-playing terms,
1:59
SPEAKER_01: and we're both multi-class,
2:01
SPEAKER_01: and he's the game designer first and the business person second class,
2:05
SPEAKER_01: and I'm the reverse.
2:06
So we kind of find a natural kind of rhythm in that and riff of
2:10
each other.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: But it's been good.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like then you've lost your important partner in crime?
2:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the Chewbacca to my Han Solo, as I referred to.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: You would hate that.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: No,
2:24
SPEAKER_01: but it's...
2:25
SPEAKER_01: So one of the reasons he took the job,
2:28
SPEAKER_01: obviously,
2:28
SPEAKER_01: was like,
2:28
SPEAKER_01: he's been doing this for 16 years.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: Non-stop.
2:32
Really never been on a vacation either,
2:34
because he's always been doing what he's loved.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: And as a CEO, generally, for a startup, you do not get to take time off.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: So it was after...
2:42
SPEAKER_01: The launch was absolutely amazing.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: It took everyone by surprise.
2:45
SPEAKER_01: And then we had a number of months of scrambling.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: And then it's been this roller coaster.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: You know,
2:51
Sony does something and then we kind of recover and then we
2:54
shoot ourselves in the foot.
2:56
And then we do something to come back and shoot us in the foot
2:59
again and then up
3:00
SPEAKER_01: and down and up and down.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: And then finally,
3:02
SPEAKER_01: I think,
3:04
SPEAKER_01: when we came to Christmas,
3:06
it became clear that the man needed to take a proper vacation
3:09
and time to play some
3:10
SPEAKER_01: other games.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: So that's really what he's doing, taking a bit of time off.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: We're going for beers in a couple of days.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: But it sounds like he's a good guy.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: This is the thing.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: It was a shock success.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: You've had to go on this learning journey, right?
3:25
SPEAKER_00: And obviously,
3:26
SPEAKER_00: we've got a publisher in Sony that isn't a live service expert either,
3:30
SPEAKER_00: or at least these sort of games.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: And it sounds like it's been a baptism.
3:35
that's exactly what it's been it's it's been i think it took us
3:40
all by surprise and
3:41
then i think sony knew and we knew that we were not fully a
3:45
full-fledged live
3:46
service studio because we absolutely were not so it took eight
3:50
years to make this
3:50
game arrowhead was always used to doing post-launch support
3:54
with with dlc and stuff
3:56
and quite a lot of it but it's a different thing to be a live
3:58
service so there was
3:59
SPEAKER_01: a man's scramble to kind of
4:01
SPEAKER_01: keep up with the intense success.
4:05
And,
4:05
you know,
4:06
the saving grace was that this was a troubled development cycle.
4:09
It took eight years to make,
4:10
and it shouldn't take eight years to make a game.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: But during those eight years,
4:14
SPEAKER_01: a lot of stuff was made and put to the side,
4:17
SPEAKER_01: or we put them in what we call the cellar.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: So after the mad release of Helldivers,
4:22
SPEAKER_01: we were like,
4:22
SPEAKER_01: oh,
4:22
SPEAKER_01: shit,
4:23
SPEAKER_01: we need to release stuff because the players are screaming for stuff.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: So all the stuff that we planned, we had to kind of get out faster.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: And then we kept reaching into the seller,
4:31
SPEAKER_01: pulled something out,
4:32
SPEAKER_01: and we're like,
4:32
SPEAKER_01: okay,
4:32
SPEAKER_01: what if we just fix this up?
4:36
SPEAKER_01: And we just kept jamming out stuff.
4:38
And that was the saving grace that allowed us to keep the
4:42
momentum going those first few months.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: And we peaked at around 750,000 players.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: And then over time, it went down.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: And then the honeymoon kind of ended.
4:52
SPEAKER_01: And we started running out of stuff to do.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: And we also ran out of stamina.
4:58
So when I was asked to step in in May of last year,
5:00
they gave me the keys to the car.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: And they told me,
5:04
we're going off on summer vacation because we haven't been
5:07
taking a lot of vacation
5:08
SPEAKER_01: over the last few summers.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, we're running a live service game.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: People can't be off for the next three months.
5:13
But that's what happens in Sweden because we take our summer
5:15
vacations very seriously.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: So it was rocky there.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: And then we kind of came back.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: But then we had the Sony account linking kind of adventure.
5:25
And it turns out that when you've made a game that trains the
5:29
community to gather
5:30
SPEAKER_01: around communal goals,
5:33
they were very good at showing what their pleasure and
5:36
displeasure so we went we
5:40
went down to like 30 in user score and usually that's the death
5:43
knell for a game
5:44
right but we came back from that and then we fumbled with
5:47
balancing and the focus
5:48
for the game and that sent us all the way down to 19 i think
5:52
was the lowest oh wow
5:53
SPEAKER_01: and like games that get 19 user score
5:58
SPEAKER_01: do not generally recover.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: And maybe the lowest point during my tenure so far,
6:03
SPEAKER_01: there's going to be many more,
6:04
SPEAKER_01: I think,
6:05
SPEAKER_01: was during the summer when everyone was away,
6:08
SPEAKER_01: our user score was down to 19.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: I had to get on a call with Herman Holst.
6:12
and explain to the CEO of Sony why things were in the state
6:18
they were and what we
6:20
SPEAKER_01: were doing to kind of recover.
6:21
And I have to say the awkward truth that there is nothing we
6:24
can do in the
6:25
SPEAKER_01: immediate short term to resolve this.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: But in the long term, we have plans that will get us back on track
6:31
And we issued a 60 day plan that put us back on the track and
6:34
we did an update and
6:35
SPEAKER_01: an update and an update.
6:36
And I was very much inspired by No Man's Sky and the team over
6:41
there that had a
6:43
SPEAKER_01: similar kind of journey.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: Very hyped,
6:46
SPEAKER_01: then bombed,
6:47
SPEAKER_01: and then they put their head to the grindstone and just updated the game.
6:50
And since I want to say since September,
6:52
we've been on a very good trajectory.
6:55
But we've been just penduling between it's so over and we're so
7:00
back and it's
7:00
SPEAKER_01: become a meme within the community.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: So we went from 19 to 94 positive on Steam.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: I like the MCU, but in like one title.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: And this is,
7:15
SPEAKER_01: you know,
7:16
SPEAKER_01: it's exactly 12 months since launch,
7:18
but all of these things I described to you happened during the
7:21
last nine months.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: It's been a real, real roller coaster.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: And we're still coming to grips with the phenomenon that this is.
7:30
like you know arrowhead and myself have been involved with
7:32
releasing successful
7:33
games but it's always hard to gauge how how much of a
7:37
phenomenon it becomes and how
7:38
many how much of a it wins hearts and minds right and it
7:42
touches people in a lot of
7:43
SPEAKER_01: different ways and that's that's why we love it
7:45
SPEAKER_00: What reassured me,
7:45
we've got data partners like Ampere and stuff that share with
7:48
us a little bit of information.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: What reassured me is that winning over lots of players at the beginning,
7:52
SPEAKER_00: we've seen games do that a lot.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: But the challenge is obviously,
7:55
SPEAKER_00: particularly in the live service space,
7:56
is that people have probably got a game that they left in order
8:00
to play your game.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: And then they just end up going back to that game eventually,
8:03
SPEAKER_00: because that's where they've spent their time,
8:04
SPEAKER_00: it's where they spent their money,
8:05
SPEAKER_00: it's where their friends are,
8:06
SPEAKER_00: which I guess probably happened to you as well.
8:10
SPEAKER_00: Then I looked at the numbers in December and I'm like,
8:12
SPEAKER_00: oh,
8:12
SPEAKER_00: you've got those people now that are coming back to your game.
8:14
SPEAKER_00: You are now one of those titles.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: And we know that the players on Steam,
8:18
SPEAKER_01: at least,
8:19
SPEAKER_01: we know that they try new things,
8:20
SPEAKER_01: but they generally then go back to their old titles.
8:23
And most of the games they play are,
8:24
you know,
8:24
up to seven-year-old games.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: New games that were very hard times.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: But I think that's due to the hard work of the developers.
8:31
We've managed to kind of cement ourselves as one of the go-to
8:35
co-op social games
8:37
SPEAKER_01: that people play.
8:38
People have drifted off from PvP games and are playing PvE
8:42
Helldivers now.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: But it's been a real journey in that sense.
8:49
And it's the core gameplay loop plus the Game Master feature
8:52
that really pulls it off,
8:53
I think.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: And you're right on the numbers,
8:56
SPEAKER_01: is that we managed to,
8:59
for the December release that was tying with the TGAs and
9:02
winning a couple of awards,
9:03
SPEAKER_01: we reactivated and got 250,000 players back into the game.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: So that was the peak again in December.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: Is that concurrent?
9:11
SPEAKER_00: Concurrent, yeah.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: Well, you talked about, okay, you weren't a live service studio.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: Arrowhead wasn't a live service studio and now sort of is.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: Has there been much change then behind the scenes?
9:24
SPEAKER_01: Some change, and I think this has been the real challenge, right?
9:28
Because one of the things that was really important to us here
9:31
in the studio was to
9:32
SPEAKER_01: have manageable growth.
9:34
And what happens with a lot of companies when they hit,
9:38
you have the financial means.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: you start hiring.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's a classic Jeff Goldblum quote from Jurassic Park.
9:47
We were so preoccupied with if we could,
9:50
we didn't talk about if we should.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: And from my history,
9:57
having been at companies that have grown very rapidly and
9:59
worked with a lot of
10:00
SPEAKER_01: companies that have grown rapidly,
10:01
I know what happens when there is uncontrolled very rapid
10:04
growth and it can lead to
10:05
SPEAKER_01: disastrous effects.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: And I was very conscious about not growing too fast
10:11
SPEAKER_01: within our walls and doing this in a sustainable way.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: So that required a bit of hard calls on our part.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: And we said,
10:20
it's going to take a bunch of months for us to figure out some
10:23
of these things to
10:24
do live service our way because we can't take the playbook from
10:27
Apex or Dota or
10:30
Darktide and say it's going to work for us because every game
10:34
is different.
10:36
And we wanted to do it in a way where we stayed true to the
10:40
tenets of the company,
10:41
SPEAKER_01: which is a game for everyone is a game for no one.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: That's how we make games.
10:44
We wanted to do it in a way that was respectful of our
10:48
developers work life balance and also.
10:52
i wanted to do it in a way that lived up to one of the mandates
10:56
i have as a ceo as
10:58
i was brought in one of the mandates is run a profitable games
11:02
company but it also
11:03
is to be a force of good in the industry and what i want us to
11:07
do is to be kind of
11:08
a role model for how to do sustainable growth because what
11:11
we're seeing in the
11:12
industry today is that the industry is not in a good place and
11:17
a lot of companies
11:18
SPEAKER_01: are shedding a lot of jobs
11:22
SPEAKER_01: It's not the people on the top who are losing their jobs.
11:25
It's a lot of people who have mortgages and families who have
11:28
moved half across the
11:29
SPEAKER_01: world to take jobs.
11:30
And then because of bad growth decisions made as part of
11:34
business leaders,
11:36
because they've been unable to lead the market or what's
11:39
happening and taking
11:40
SPEAKER_01: stupid risks,
11:41
SPEAKER_01: has led to a lot of other people losing their jobs.
11:44
So I want us to be on a path of sustainable growth,
11:47
and that's why we're not hiring like crazy.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: We're growing some through our code development partners,
11:52
SPEAKER_01: but that's been incredibly important to me.
11:54
And that's what we want to be able to show to the industry,
11:58
how this could be done,
12:01
to be frank.
12:02
Code dev seems to be a direction lots of people are going in
12:04
when they need to scale up fast.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: The approach you've made.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and there are multiple different reasons for it.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: First off, we are a studio that is based here in Stockholm.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: We have a strong belief that studios can be remote,
12:18
but we have chosen not to focus heavily on remote and we would
12:21
like to be kind of local.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: So we want our core teams to come into the office and be available.
12:27
We have a lot of people who do work remote and they can stay
12:29
remote for a very long time.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: So there are limitations in how much we can grow in Stockholm.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: I just can't get people to move to Stockholm.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: That's just the reality of it.
12:38
The second thing is that we don't want to grow too much here
12:40
because there's just
12:43
SPEAKER_01: our culture transfer rate,
12:45
SPEAKER_01: as we call it,
12:46
SPEAKER_01: is what it is.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: And we can't and don't want to become a giant company of 200,
12:51
SPEAKER_01: 250 people where people don't know each other's names.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, we want to meet the business realities of the game.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: And there are co-development studios out there who have the skill set,
13:04
SPEAKER_01: the mindset,
13:05
SPEAKER_01: and interest in collaborating with us.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: A year ago,
13:09
SPEAKER_01: we were not working with many co-development studios,
13:11
SPEAKER_01: but now we're working with a handful and deepening those relationships.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: Some of them are embedded here in Stockholm.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: Others are nearby in the UK.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: Has anything surprised you since taking the role?
13:24
SPEAKER_00: I know the game journey seems to have surprised you,
13:27
SPEAKER_00: but like anything else that's since taking on the role?
13:31
SPEAKER_01: A couple of things.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: Like it's, again, the whole phenomenon thing.
13:36
Games can become popular,
13:37
but I wouldn't say it's a religious experience.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: But for some, the game has been truly, truly unique.
13:43
And I think sometimes we as developers can become myopic
13:46
because we've been living
13:47
SPEAKER_01: with Helldivers for quite a long time.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: And we've been thinking about the Game Master feature.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: But when we actually put it in the hands of the players,
13:54
truly magic starts to happen and it becomes a phenomenon in its
13:57
own sense.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: An hour and a half ago, a planet in the game was blown up.
14:03
It permanently was removed from the game and people cannot go
14:07
to that planet,
14:07
Angel's Venture.
14:08
This planet was the first planet that was opened up for battle
14:11
when the game was launched.
14:12
And now it doesn't exist as a result of a number of different
14:15
events that were in
14:17
SPEAKER_01: the hands of the players.
14:18
Had they made different choices,
14:20
it would have been maybe no planet would have been exploding.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: So this...
14:26
SPEAKER_01: This has been the...
14:28
I did not anticipate how much people would lean into the
14:32
role-playing aspect of this.
14:34
And there have been a couple of stories throughout the year
14:37
that have been truly...
14:39
SPEAKER_01: Moving,
14:40
SPEAKER_01: you know,
14:41
we issue challenges to the players that take this planet and
14:44
you'll get this reward,
14:45
SPEAKER_01: live service style,
14:46
SPEAKER_01: right?
14:47
So the reward is you get these anti-tank mines and then the
14:50
players tried to take
14:51
SPEAKER_01: the planet and they failed.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: And then three weeks later, we were like, here's another planet.
14:56
You take that planet,
14:56
you take the arms factories,
14:58
you get the anti-tank weapons.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: And again, they failed.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: Then again,
15:02
SPEAKER_01: we issued the same challenge and we said,
15:04
SPEAKER_01: you can get the arms,
15:06
you can get the mind if you take this planet or you save this
15:09
other planet that has
15:10
SPEAKER_01: sick kids in a hospital.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: But you can't save both.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: So it's up to you, the community, which one do you want to save?
15:17
SPEAKER_01: And the community overwhelmingly chose to go and get the sick kids.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: Digital, fictitious kids in this fascist, you know, super rough society.
15:28
But everyone role played the fantasy and we made the donation
15:31
to save the children.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: And again,
15:34
SPEAKER_01: with this planet thing,
15:35
SPEAKER_01: our concurrent player count jumped by 30,000 players who just logged in.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: to see what the hell was going to happen with this planet as it blew up.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: If you want to talk about new stuff in terms of surprising,
15:49
SPEAKER_01: I did not think that we would see this level of engagement or retention,
15:53
SPEAKER_01: if you want to call these kind of business.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: But truly,
15:55
people are passionate about what's happening in the game thanks
15:58
to this Game Master feature.
15:59
SPEAKER_01: So that's been one of the big surprising things.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: I think the other big surprising thing,
16:06
SPEAKER_01: and this is maybe going to paint me in bad colors,
16:10
is I came into this thinking that the relationship with
16:14
PlayStation would be quite different.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: I have 12 years working at Paradox as a publisher.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: I assumed Sony,
16:21
SPEAKER_01: having paid a lot of money for this project,
16:26
SPEAKER_01: would exert a whole lot more control.
16:30
And run the show more or less,
16:32
because what do these wild kids here in Sweden know?
16:35
SPEAKER_01: But I've been very pleasantly surprised to see how...
16:40
creator friendly playstation has been as a studio truly truly
16:46
impressive and it's
16:47
you know they've been fumbles of course any company does and
16:50
you know but they've
16:51
been an amazing uh partner throughout and i think that they're
16:55
uh they have been
16:56
too much uh flack from from the community at times but they've
16:59
been truly like hell
17:00
divers would not exist if if playstation was not so focused on
17:06
creating cool stuff
17:07
SPEAKER_01: for players like
17:09
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not blowing smoke up their ass.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: They've been a genuinely good partner in this.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: So that's the second big surprising thing, I would say.
17:18
SPEAKER_00: Going back to your thing about the Game Master thing,
17:20
we talked earlier about live service and online games and
17:22
people leaving and
17:23
SPEAKER_00: getting how to keep those people.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: Is it the Game Master element?
17:26
Is it those story moments that's enabling you to keep players
17:30
coming back?
17:31
SPEAKER_01: I'll say it's a huge driver.
17:32
Like obviously we try to put stuff out as fast as possible and
17:37
as often as possible.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: But again, there's a limitation in how much stuff we can put out.
17:42
And we had a faster pace in the beginning and that led to
17:44
quality problems.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: We slowed down.
17:47
as we bring in one more code development we'll probably get to
17:49
leapfrogging so we
17:50
can increase more but i was talking to the uh genshin impact
17:55
team they have 1500
17:56
developers working on stuff and releasing stuff regularly it's
17:59
still not enough for
18:00
the players so despite us dropping really cool updates and new
18:05
factions and new
18:05
weapons all the stuff we just can't keep up and nobody can keep
18:09
up with the content
18:09
SPEAKER_01: mail
18:11
The other thing that keeps people going has been the
18:14
role-playing factor and the
18:16
SPEAKER_01: Game Master feature and all the memes.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: And if you go onto our Discord and talk in universe voice,
18:25
SPEAKER_01: people just play along with the joke and satire of the IP.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: And that's the lovely part of it.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: I went to Comic-Con in London in May last year,
18:35
SPEAKER_00: and I saw loads of people dressed up for characters in the game,
18:39
SPEAKER_00: and that game had been out a few months,
18:40
SPEAKER_00: and to suddenly see that immediately appear in a pop culture event.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: No, it's mind-boggling.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we live in strange times.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: It's 2025.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: Fascism is on the rise.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that's playing into the uplift effect for the game,
18:57
or maybe it's exactly what people need to be able to deal with
19:00
the dark times in
19:00
SPEAKER_01: their surroundings.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: I was on a call with another games publisher.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: I was talking about the two of the big game hits of last year,
19:06
SPEAKER_00: mentioning your one,
19:07
SPEAKER_00: but also mentioning Space Marine 2.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: And he goes, what is it with space fascism in 2024?
19:13
SPEAKER_01: The world is more polarized than it's ever been.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: And when you get games that paint things in black and white,
19:21
SPEAKER_01: it kind of rhymes with that because reality is not black and white,
19:23
SPEAKER_01: despite people wanting to reduce it to that.
19:25
SPEAKER_01: But it's simple.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: It's escapism, I think, on some level.
19:31
Talked about so many of the challenges that you've overcome and
19:33
you seem to be in a
19:34
SPEAKER_00: good spot now,
19:34
SPEAKER_00: but what would you say are the biggest ones?
19:36
SPEAKER_00: What has been the thing that's been like, okay, was it that summer?
19:39
Yeah,
19:39
the summer when I was there,
19:42
the captain of a ship,
19:43
the ship was tied to the dock.
19:45
All the crew was on shore leave and Sony were knocking on our
19:49
door asking,
19:50
SPEAKER_01: what the hell are you doing?
19:52
That wasn't great,
19:53
but I would say like the real challenges has been for us to
19:57
maintain
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Our integrity.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: The slogan for the studio is a game for everyone is a game for no one.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: So we did not set out to design Helldivers for a wide audience.
20:09
SPEAKER_01: We made it for a niche audience.
20:11
And our belief is that if you make an uncompromising game
20:14
experience for a very
20:15
SPEAKER_01: specific audience,
20:17
SPEAKER_01: you have the ability to resonate far outside of it.
20:19
Now,
20:19
we've seen this happen many times in video games and even
20:22
outside the games too.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: From software games buck the trend.
20:25
They were very brutally hard where every other game was about handholding.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: And that's an entire genre.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of success has been born out of that.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: Escape from Tarkov is the same thing.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: It bucks a lot of the PvP trends.
20:38
And if I told my wife 10 years ago that we'll be watching seven
20:41
seasons of Game of
20:42
SPEAKER_01: Thrones about some dudes with swords running around and dragons,
20:46
SPEAKER_01: she was like,
20:46
SPEAKER_01: she would not be on board for that.
20:48
But somehow she was on board for Game of Thrones and then we're
20:51
watching the next show.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: And HBO is very good at this,
20:54
SPEAKER_01: creating these uncompromising auteur visions,
20:57
SPEAKER_01: letting them come to life.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: So we did not make Helldivers for 6 million Call of Duty players.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: We absolutely didn't.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: But we do now have 6 million Call of Duty players who've bought our game.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: And they are interested in different things compared to,
21:14
SPEAKER_01: say,
21:14
SPEAKER_01: the audience that comes from Escape from Targets or Arma,
21:18
SPEAKER_01: which were some of the more influential games in that kind of game.
21:21
So the summer of pain or whatever we want to call it was
21:26
painful in part because.
21:29
it was hard for us to reconcile how to stay true to the studio
21:33
fundamentals while
21:35
dealing with the business realities of having so many different
21:38
voices screaming at us.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: And I'll do a big GDC talk about this at some point,
21:44
SPEAKER_01: but to kind of boil it down,
21:45
any modern game understands that their audience consists of
21:49
many different segments,
21:50
SPEAKER_01: and it's very hard to give everyone
21:54
SPEAKER_01: everything they want at the same time.
21:56
Destiny has PvP content,
21:58
it has PvE content,
22:00
it has story content,
22:01
it has big raids.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: These are for different audiences, right?
22:05
SPEAKER_01: And Helldivers kind of puts everyone into the same funnel.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: And now we're getting to the point to kind of figure those things out.
22:12
But the thing that had us kind of,
22:15
you know,
22:15
lost was that we got away from the core fantasy.
22:19
The box,
22:19
it literally says on the box,
22:21
you know,
22:21
kill monsters with overpowered weapons.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: strive to find balance,
22:27
I think we ended up balancing the game in a way where the core
22:32
fantasy kind of died.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: And that's where we got the backlash.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: So I think the real big challenge for us,
22:38
SPEAKER_01: yes,
22:38
has it been hard to figure out how to work with a number of
22:41
code development studios,
22:42
how to get stuff out every six weeks or whatever it is at a
22:45
good quality and pace.
22:47
We're still learning how to actively talk to the community and
22:50
we don't do this enough.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: But truly it's been
22:53
Game direction for a game that's been in development before it
22:57
reaches the audience
22:58
SPEAKER_01: is one thing.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: It's another thing once it's out.
23:01
And I think maybe part of that is that Johan passed on the
23:05
torch to other folks.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: And his voice was needed,
23:09
but he was not able to bring his voice to bear because he was
23:12
also running a company.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: So a lot of these things have fallen into place.
23:16
And I wouldn't say that we're out of the woods yet,
23:19
but we're in a much better spot.
23:21
And what we talk about always is that we want to be kind of a
23:24
flagship studio and
23:25
SPEAKER_01: we want to always be able to look back at ourselves 18 months ago,
23:29
SPEAKER_01: six months ago and say,
23:30
SPEAKER_01: oh man,
23:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm so embarrassed about how we knew nothing back then.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: Oh, sweet summer child.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: And now we're maturing and learning more.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: So that onwards and upwards growth journey is very important to us.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: It's interesting.
23:43
One of my favorite live service games in recent history is Sea
23:46
of Thieves.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: And Sea of Thieves is a pirate game, right?
23:50
And I,
23:51
like a bunch of people on Sea of Thieves,
23:52
hate the piracy part of the game.
23:54
I like hanging out with my friends on a ship,
23:56
going on adventures,
23:57
and it's fun.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: And then somebody comes along, sinks my ship, and steals all my treasure.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: And I'm furious.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: I hate the game.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm angry with the game.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: And I think Rare had that issue.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: It was like, oh, hang on, all these people don't like that.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: So let's tone that down or let's tweak it like this.
24:11
And then I think over time they've come to realize,
24:13
no,
24:13
I'm afraid that's what the game is.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: The game is a game about pirates and that's going to happen.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: This is where product development comes in and the tricky parts of it.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: You and I both being business and industry nerds,
24:26
SPEAKER_01: to me,
24:26
the most interesting kind of case of this was when Nintendo
24:30
launched the Wii.
24:32
because they were on equal footing with all the other big
24:35
platforms as a hardcore
24:37
SPEAKER_01: gaming platform.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: But they very much clearly decided to,
24:40
SPEAKER_01: you know what,
24:40
we're going to try a different strategy and we're going to go
24:42
for a much wider kind
24:44
SPEAKER_01: of audience and thereby forsake some of that hardcore audience.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: But that gamble very much paid off.
24:51
They positioned themselves completely differently and outsold
24:54
both of the other
24:55
SPEAKER_01: platforms put together.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: But the pain of that was that they had a lot of hardcore players
25:00
who were looking to their platform for hardcore games,
25:02
and they were not quite getting them.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: So in Nintendo's case, I think that they pivoted away from the strategy.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: For us, it was about finding, like, who is the game for?
25:13
SPEAKER_01: We don't want the game just for the Arma and Tarkov players,
25:16
SPEAKER_01: but we also don't want it only for the PvP COD players either.
25:22
SPEAKER_00: So who is this for, really?
25:24
SPEAKER_00: I guess that's the journey you're on.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:27
What's really fascinating about it,
25:28
I found,
25:29
is there's a Helldivers movie.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: Right?
25:32
SPEAKER_00: How has that gone down with the team?
25:35
SPEAKER_01: I should say that we are a game studio.
25:38
We're lucky to work with a company that also has a very strong
25:41
film division.
25:42
And my sense is that when they want something done and see that
25:46
there's something
25:47
SPEAKER_01: to capitalize on,
25:47
SPEAKER_01: they've been pretty good at moving on it.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: Sony has a bunch of really great people that we talk to on the regular.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: We talk about the IP.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: We talk about the game, where it's headed.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: We talk about our capabilities, and they're running the movie.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: We're super excited to see what comes of that.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: It's Hollywood, so who knows?
26:06
But we are so excited to see if we can take some of the things
26:10
that the community
26:10
SPEAKER_01: have made,
26:11
SPEAKER_01: like the children's hospital thing.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: The planet got blown up.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: If these things can...
26:16
SPEAKER_01: be referenced in the movie, that's made by the players.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: That would be so, so cool.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: We would love to see all those cosplaying people have,
26:26
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:27
SPEAKER_01: background extra parts in the movie,
26:29
SPEAKER_01: but I tell people,
26:30
SPEAKER_01: please do not email me about getting parts in the movie.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: I have zero say in that.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: But we are super excited to see that come to life on some level.
26:38
We saw Helldivers being featured in the Secret Level episode,
26:43
which was super cool.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: And we're kind of reeling understanding how big of an IP this is.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: And this is one of the big challenges for the studio.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: We are the same people we were 12 months and a week ago, right?
26:58
But we're also not the same because suddenly now we're playing
27:00
in a different league.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: We're playing like Division III and now we're in Champions League.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: And it takes time for us to kind of figure that out,
27:07
that we are being held up to a different standard and
27:09
scrutinized against a
27:10
SPEAKER_01: different standard.
27:11
So while a lot of studios will look at us or people will look
27:14
at us and say like,
27:15
SPEAKER_01: they're a biggest,
27:15
SPEAKER_01: fully established studio where we're like,
27:17
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
27:18
SPEAKER_01: but we were quite,
27:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
27:20
SPEAKER_01: indie and learning the ropes just 12 months ago.
27:23
We don't naturally kind of,
27:24
we need to rise to the occasion and fully realize that.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: So, but there's a bit of a lagging effect to that as we kind of catch up.
27:32
If you could pick three lessons that you think the industry
27:35
should know from what
27:37
SPEAKER_00: you've learned over the last,
27:38
SPEAKER_00: well,
27:38
SPEAKER_00: nine months,
27:39
SPEAKER_00: I guess,
27:40
SPEAKER_00: what would your three be?
27:42
SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: I think
27:46
SPEAKER_01: I think it's really important.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: I take this with me from the paradox days as well,
27:50
SPEAKER_01: but I think it's incredibly true still for our game.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: You have to eat your own dog food.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: We talk to the community all the time.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: We read what they post.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: We play the game and we stay in touch with them.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: They pay our salaries.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: They have created this success and we need to listen to them.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: And we succeed the most when we give players what they want.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: But I will balance this out with we have a lot of different voices.
28:18
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: And our job is to be, it's kind of a doctor-patient relationship.
28:23
If the patient comes in and says,
28:24
I have a pain in my foot,
28:25
can you please amputate it?
28:28
Our job is not to amputate the foot,
28:30
but to figure out what will fix the problem.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: And we,
28:34
SPEAKER_01: as medical experts,
28:35
hopefully be able to suggest other solutions that will have the
28:39
problems fixed.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: And we have a lot of people screaming for amputations.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: And we don't want to amputate for this.
28:45
SPEAKER_01: So that's, I think, one of the big things.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: And I see this fumbling happening in the industry quite often.
28:50
SPEAKER_01: And this comes back to, I think, PlayStation strength as a partner.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: Like,
28:54
sometimes there are directives strategic from big companies
28:58
that come and say,
28:58
SPEAKER_01: you have to do this because X,
29:01
SPEAKER_01: Y,
29:01
SPEAKER_01: and Z.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: And the directives that we are...
29:05
being given are the same desires that we have that we see
29:10
mirrored in the wants of
29:12
our customers and players and that we would like to see
29:15
ourselves like i'm big on
29:18
just being truthful and authentic about the stuff because if
29:21
you just if you give
29:22
them what they want and they'll tell you what you think you can
29:24
have a healthy
29:25
relationship but if you're trying to put lipstick on a pig and
29:28
sell it like
29:28
something else that's when you run into trouble so i think that
29:31
those are one of
29:31
SPEAKER_01: the learnings
29:32
SPEAKER_01: I think a second one is that we shouldn't take yourself too seriously.
29:35
SPEAKER_01: Like, this is a fun game.
29:38
And one of the reasons we get away with still fumbling and
29:43
screwing up from time to
29:44
SPEAKER_01: time is that we show people that we're still human.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: We go to work every day like everyone else.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: Our job happens to make a game.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we have good days and sometimes we have bad days.
29:56
And if people understand that there are humans on the other
30:00
side with families and jobs,
30:04
SPEAKER_01: There's a little bit more understanding.
30:06
And I think that we've built goodwill and trust that even if
30:10
we'll fumble from time
30:11
SPEAKER_01: to time,
30:12
SPEAKER_01: we'll still do right by them and come back and do the right stuff.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: So maintaining and building that relationship.
30:18
And I think the third learning,
30:20
maybe this is more and we touched upon this.
30:23
SPEAKER_01: I think that it comes back to sustainable growth.
30:26
I wish that our industry hadn't shed almost,
30:29
was it 20,
30:32
30,
30:33
40,
30:33
50,000 jobs the past two years.
30:34
And the reason for that is that a lot of people in the top were
30:39
making very unsound
30:42
SPEAKER_01: business decisions and there's very little accountability in their part.
30:46
Who among these executives is stepping down from the positions
30:50
because they took
30:51
SPEAKER_01: these shitty decisions or slashing their salaries
30:54
SPEAKER_01: That's not generally happening.
30:56
What's happening is that regular folks,
30:58
regular developers are paying the cost of that.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's a terrible way to manage and run our industry.
31:06
And just because you can hire or grow the triple in size in six
31:12
months doesn't mean you should
31:15
SPEAKER_01: or that it's the best thing for the studio's long term health and,
31:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:21
SPEAKER_01: also business health,
31:22
SPEAKER_01: I would say.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say that.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: So it's just because you can grow doesn't mean you should grow.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: It's,
31:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:29
try and keep the humanity and the connection with the players
31:31
so they see the human
31:32
SPEAKER_00: side of you as a studio.
31:34
And then I guess there's the working with the community to work
31:37
out what it is they
31:38
SPEAKER_00: actually want from their game.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying don't grow,
31:41
SPEAKER_01: grow,
31:41
but do it in a way where you don't have to then let go of one
31:46
third of the company
31:47
SPEAKER_01: because you made stupid decisions.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: Like try to be sustainable in that.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: So I'm not going to go out and hire a hundred people.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: I would like to hire a hundred people and help people in the industry.
31:55
Like my first priority is just to make sure that people have
31:57
jobs for many years.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: You've got to think about your team as much as the people bring in it.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: Well,
32:03
SPEAKER_00: we're sort of,
32:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm wary of the time,
32:05
SPEAKER_00: but I mean,
32:06
SPEAKER_00: you are a podcasting industry podcaster yourself,
32:08
and there's a lot of negativity around the games industry at
32:11
this point in time.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: How do you feel about
32:13
the industry overall outside of the mistakes it's made in
32:16
recent history.
32:18
You can be a little bit cynical where we are,
32:20
but I think that there is light still.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: What was the John McCain quote in 2008 before the US economy crashed?
32:28
SPEAKER_01: The fundamentals of our economy is strong.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: I'll use the same quote.
32:34
I think the fundamentals of the games industry are strong in
32:39
the sense that I don't
32:41
SPEAKER_01: see people playing less.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: That's not happening.
32:44
It's not like people are shifting away from their gaming habits
32:48
into consuming
32:50
SPEAKER_01: other forms of media.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, gaming is strong in itself.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: And there is a whole generation of Roblox,
33:00
SPEAKER_01: Fortnite,
33:01
SPEAKER_01: Minecraft players constantly growing up,
33:04
SPEAKER_01: becoming a little bit older,
33:05
SPEAKER_01: having more disposable income,
33:07
SPEAKER_01: and gaming is fully ingrained in how they play games.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: I have an 11-year-old daughter
33:12
SPEAKER_01: You talk to her classmates.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter what gender we're talking about.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: Everyone plays a game on some level.
33:19
This is fundamentally different compared to 10,
33:22
15,
33:23
20 years ago when you and I grew up.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: We were a minority back then.
33:27
There used to be a time it was just kids and people who
33:29
identified as gamers.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: You didn't have it.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: It's not ubiquitous.
33:34
It's truly ubiquitous and not everyone would describe
33:36
themselves as gamers,
33:37
but they end up playing a lot of games and it's a social space
33:39
and all of that.
33:40
SPEAKER_01: And all of these things are pervasive and going to be driving.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: Games are not going anywhere.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: We're stronger than ever.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: What is happening,
33:47
SPEAKER_01: however,
33:48
is that there are a number of dinosaurs in the industry and big
33:53
entities that are
33:55
SPEAKER_01: looking at their playbooks and realizing they're out of position.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: When you have an industry that is changing this fast,
34:03
having games that take four to six years to make is just
34:07
strategically poor.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: My fundamental belief,
34:10
SPEAKER_01: and my good friend Maria Cornelius is our chief product officer,
34:13
SPEAKER_01: says this all the time.
34:14
The best way to become an expert at something is to make many
34:18
repeated bets over and over.
34:21
SPEAKER_01: Do the same thing over and over and you will achieve mastery.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: But if your bet cycle is six and seven years,
34:28
SPEAKER_01: it's really,
34:29
SPEAKER_01: really,
34:29
SPEAKER_01: really hard to hit the landing.
34:31
I think that Concorde was probably a good call when it was
34:33
signed initially eight years ago.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: Overwatch was maybe in a vulnerable state and looked good at the time.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: And then over time, you do this kind of salami negotiation with yourself.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: And then four years in, you're like, well, it's non-cost fallacy.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: You have to keep going.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: And it's terrible for the industry when these bets don't pay off.
34:51
And I think the trick for some of the big companies is that you
34:54
can't ask a
34:56
SPEAKER_01: 300-person team to divide themselves into 30 10-man teams and have them
35:03
out games because it's a different skill set yeah and uh what
35:07
we're noticing now
35:07
and it was very you know poignant in the sense that held divers
35:11
and pal world came
35:12
out roughly at the same time and both became super big smash
35:15
hits i think they've
35:17
sold many more copies than we have but relatively speaking they
35:21
were much smaller
35:22
SPEAKER_01: yeah
35:23
SPEAKER_01: projects and games than any of their peers.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: So if I'm managing a giant-ass portfolio,
35:29
SPEAKER_01: I should be asking myself,
35:30
why am I spending all the money on 300-person studios when
35:34
there are teams of 15 to
35:35
SPEAKER_01: 70 people doing more successful things?
35:38
I did this analysis for a company of the day and the
35:41
best-selling video games in Europe,
35:43
SPEAKER_00: so the top five new games released last year,
35:46
SPEAKER_00: right?
35:46
SPEAKER_00: So it's called GT and FIFA at the top, right?
35:48
SPEAKER_00: That's where they always sit.
35:49
Then it's you,
35:50
it's Helldivers,
35:51
the third best-selling new release last year.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: And then it's Space Marine 2.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: Then it was, I mean, Power World's probably in there.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: The Power World data is not quite there.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: Black Myth is probably in there globally.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: And then it's
36:07
SPEAKER_00: Dragon Ball.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: But where's Dragon Age?
36:11
SPEAKER_00: Number 68.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: Star Wars Outlaws, 47.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: Final Fantasy VII Rebirth, just inside the top 50.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: And these are games with big teams, big budgets, big brands.
36:21
SPEAKER_01: And I think the big difference between,
36:22
SPEAKER_01: and I'm the chairman of the board at Headed Horse as well,
36:25
SPEAKER_01: and many years of Paradox and Foro,
36:26
SPEAKER_01: a lot of different publishers closely.
36:28
SPEAKER_01: The challenge is that everyone needs new playbooks, almost everyone.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: And there are some exceptions to the rule,
36:35
SPEAKER_01: and I wouldn't go as far as saying that we're a black swan event.
36:41
SPEAKER_01: but clearly something's worked out.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: Then there are Larians that can pull Baldur's Gate 3 off.
36:46
I don't think others can go and then say,
36:49
you know what,
36:49
if Larian can do it,
36:50
then so can we.
36:51
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't work that way.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: But the trick is now is that the bottom has fallen out of the industry,
36:58
SPEAKER_01: at least on the PC side and maybe on the console side as well,
37:01
SPEAKER_01: where you could expect to sell 300K of a game three years ago.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: That's 30K now, or maybe 3K.
37:08
SPEAKER_01: There is no lower end.
37:10
And that is super scary when you have a cost base like Ubisoft
37:14
or some of the bigger players.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: And I think that if you're 2K,
37:17
you're kind of safe because you have GTA that is basically an
37:21
industry in itself.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: But everyone else,
37:24
unless you have a very focused business like Paradox does and
37:28
some of the other companies,
37:30
SPEAKER_01: you're in a very tight spot.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: And it's going to be really interesting to see.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: Now,
37:37
SPEAKER_01: the waters are receding now,
37:39
SPEAKER_01: and we're going to be seeing who's bathing naked the next few years.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm conscious of the time, so I'm going to have to stop there.
37:47
SPEAKER_00: But thank you so much for your time, James.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: It's been a pleasure to have you on.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
37:51
SPEAKER_00: Enjoyed this greatly.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: And good luck with the journey that you've got ahead.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
37:58
SPEAKER_00: Are video game subscription services a good or bad thing?
38:01
SPEAKER_00: Bad.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: Which Star Wars trilogy was the best original prequel or sequel?
38:06
SPEAKER_00: Come on, it's the original, of course.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: Will game streaming ever become a mainstream proposition?
38:13
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: What's the first thing you do when you get into work in the morning?
38:18
SPEAKER_00: Check Discord and Reddit.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: Will Nintendo Switch 2 outsell Nintendo Switch 1?
38:24
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: If you could be CEO of any other games company, which one would it be?
38:29
SPEAKER_00: No company.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: That's a dodge.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: Best album of all time?
38:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
38:34
SPEAKER_00: Californication?
38:36
SPEAKER_00: That's a bad answer.
38:37
SPEAKER_00: What one thing should games companies think about but probably aren't?
38:42
SPEAKER_01: What the players want.