Latest / A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast / Raising Kids Beyond the Binary w/ Jamie Bruesehoff

Transcript

Raising Kids Beyond the Binary w/ Jamie Bruesehoff · A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 2: Well, hello everyone, and welcome to a matter of Faith, the Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions about faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to ask us your questions because if it matters to you, it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of faith. And Simon and I are still on a little hiatus, a little holiday break, but we will be back with you next week. But we hope you enjoy our guest for this week, who is Jamie Bria Hoff , who is the author of Raising Kids Beyond the Binary and Jamie , and we talk a lot about what it means to be advocates for our trans siblings and what that means for the church. So we hope you enjoy this conversation with Jamie .
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: Well, we are so excited to be joined on this episode of A Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast by a very special guest. Joining us is Jamie Boff , who is the author of Raising Kids Beyond the Binary. Jamie , thank you so much for being with us.
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Jamie , it's really good to meet you and we will get our conversation started with our question, and then we'll just see where we go. So our question reads, what specific gifts or opportunities do faith communities bring to the table in terms of inclusion terms and acceptance terms for transgender and gender diverse children? This is a very important question, and we are so, so grateful you are here with us to talk about this. So how would you respond to that question?
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's, it's a big question and an important one, I think. Um, I, I am tempted to respond in two different ways, and so I think that's probably what I'll do. So first , um, before I get to the answer to the actual question, I almost wanna flip it on its head and wanna say that actually what specific gifts do transgender and gender diverse children bring to faith communities? Because so often I think when we approach conversations of inclusion, it's like, how do we come in as the saviors and save the poor trans kids and , um, they're gonna save us? Um, they shouldn't have to, but we gain so much more from being in community with trans people of all ages and gender diverse people of all ages than , um, than anything we can offer. And so I'll kind of start that as a foundational comment. Um, but to kind of get back to what the question is really asking, I think it's important to understand that the world right now and and for a good amount of time is a pretty scary place for , um, trans and gender diverse children, especially. Um, and that there's , um, a lot of hard stuff. I mean, that is like a massive understatement , um, and that people of faith , uh, have done and continue to do the most significant harm to this community , uh, personally and politically. And so what I would contend is that , um, people of faith are in a unique position to mitigate that harm. It is up to people of faith to , um, boldly, loudly and joyfully , uh, celebrate transgender and gender diverse people of all ages, but especially young people, to change the narrative to say , um, that these young people are not mistakes. That God does not make mistakes. We hear that phrase so often used as a weapon against this community. And I actually hear it as a beautiful , um, bold affirmation. God does not make mistakes. These children and young people were created in the image of God to be exactly who they know themselves to be. Um, and that is a beautiful gift to , um, everyone in relationship with them and, and their faith communities.
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: I love how you flipped the initial question, because the initial question, and I'll say this as the person who wrote that initial question, I think that's so important , um, because it's so easy for us to center sort of the church as this powerful entity, as you were saying, that can come and save, whether it's saving people from, you know , the devil and sending out missionaries somewhere and conversion or more dangerous and very other, well, also problematic things like I say, conversion like conversion therapy, not good . And it's so easy for us to center the church as opposed to centering the individual who's already made in the image of God. So thank you for that reminder.
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. I love that. I think , um, there's so much to be , um, to be celebrated in the way that we are made better by being in community with all kinds of god's people, especially people who are different from us . And so I'm not transgender. I am the cisgender , um, parent of a transgender child who has taught me more about what it means to be in community with people, to love the person in front of me for who they are and not who I thought they were or who I expected them to be. And has taught me more about the God who created both of us. And that is just such a powerful thing that I hope everyone gets the opportunity to experience.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: And your work is, it is so important because there are a lot of parents out there who are, who are the same as you, who have a, a transgender child or, or a relative or someone they're taking care of. And I wonder, you know, what are those things that you have learned or maybe that you've talked about in your book when it comes to be to being a parent of a trans child? Because, you know, there are not a lot of resources out there, and sometimes, you know, where I'm from, like where I'm from right now and middle of nowhere, South Carolina, you know, there are trans people everywhere. And I think having more resources is so important because, you know, there's, there's just not a lot out there. And, and with the rhetoric now in politics, parents have gotten a lot of heat of just, and are targeted for a lot of things. And the only thing parents want to do is support their, their child and to do whatever is best for their kid. So, so what are some things that are in there when you're talking about raising a kid beyond the binary? What have you learned and like, what can people expect to kinda read in the book?
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think , um, the book really came out of , um, there not being resources. You know, my daughter is now 16 years old. She transitioned when she was eight. And so we've been on this journey for a while now, and it had a pretty steep learning curve. Um, and what, as much as we were able to find some books eight years ago , um, about raising , um, gender expansive kids , um, and we were able to, I , um, I have a master's degree from a Lutheran seminary, and I'm married to a Lutheran pastor. And so we come at this with some kind of theological background. And so we were able to find like heady theological takes on , um, what it means to be trans and what does the bible say and how do we look at that? But there was nothing kind of for the everyday parent about how do we raise these young people up from a faith perspective, because too often faith is an impediment to loving the person in front of you, and like, that shouldn't be the case. That's absurd. And so , um, I think the, the book hopes to help , uh, help people understand that you don't have to choose between your faith and your child or your faith and your loved one, or your faith and any trans person. That's not a thing. Now, you may have to choose between your child or your loved one and your church if your church is actively doing harm to that community. And that's a harder conversation. But I think knowing at the core that , um, loving the transgender person in front of you , um, is is not antithetical to your faith. In fact, it is , um, we love them, not in spite of our faith, but because of our faith , um, on kind of a more of a nitty gritty level. Like when we look at raising , um, gender expansive kids, it's listening to them, following their lead, letting them be who they are. And those all are like nice little phrases that sound so simple, and they're not, like, those are big complicated things. Um, and it takes a lot of navigating, like all of your stuff, all of the baggage that you bring from life, all of your fear. You know, when my daughter transitioned, I think for both my spouse and myself, we , um, there was never any question of loving and supporting our child for being who she was, but we had a lot of fear about the world around her, about what life was gonna be like, about how people are gonna respond to her. And so that's real. And so there's some really practical stuff in the book about how to navigate that, how to, you know, talk to families, how to talk to your church, how to talk to your school, but also how to make sure that you are centering your child and not putting all of that fear on them . Um, and so I think that , uh, is a really important thing for really being in relationship with anyone, centering the person, the most vulnerable person in our community, and making sure that we only , um, give them support. Like support goes in, processing goes out, if you look at like ring theory or the circles of grief. Um, and, and being able to put that protective bubble there so that young people have the space to explore and find out who they are without carrying everything that we carry that we've absorbed from the world around us.
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: I think that's really important. I can't tell you the number of times I've talked with people who I would describe as moderately progressive on this issue, if that makes sense, where they, it's usually someone who has a friend, a neighbor, or a loved one who is, well, often, but especially if they are transgender, they say, oh, you know, I don't care. It's fine with me, but it makes me sad. And I ask the question, why does that make you sad? Because their life is going to be hard, which I understand where that comes from, but the problem is that it implies that the issue is with the person, not with the society that that person has to live in. And mm-hmm . It's taken me a while to figure out and understand that distinction, to try to correct my own language to be no, there's not something wrong with with you. There's nothing wrong with the way God made you. You are who you are. It's us that needs, that has the problem. But it's so hard to change our, our perspective on something that is so ingrained in us from society.
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And I think so much, we hear so often about the trauma of, of lgbtq plus people, of people, of, of trans people. Um, and that shapes our narrative. You know, if all we hear about people is their trauma, then it becomes this, oh my gosh, that's so awful. But they are so much more than the trauma they experience because of the, the world that we live in. You know, we hear all these statistics, we know that that people, but especially trans people are at , um, pretty high risk for depression and anxiety and suicidality. And sometimes people hear those statistics and go, oh my gosh, there must be something wrong with them. When in reality we know that people don't struggle because there's something wrong with them. They struggle because of what they face in society. And so , um, when we see people as whole human beings, you know, my daughter often likes to say that, like being trans is the least interesting thing about me. Like I'm a whole human being. She is a sassy 16-year-old. She sings in three acapella group. She plays field hockey, she does all of these things, and they're all things that like make her who she is and who God created her to be. And if I can see the wholeness of that person, then it shifts me away from that struggle narrative. And so then when I see the struggle, when I see the harm being done by the world we live in, then I'm able to go, okay, she is good. She doesn't need to be fixed like she is , she's whole and holy and, and who God created her to be. And now we need to go change the world. And like I say that, and like, that's a, a big phrase, but like, that's, that's my job. That's my mission here as her parent. Like, it's my job to go change the world and to recruit everyone else to do the same.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: I, I think that also, I'll say this as someone who is not a parent, but one day hopes to be that I can imagine it's easy to fall into the trap of wanting to protect your children from everything. And sometimes that may mean trying to protect your children from themselves as opposed to from the world, if that makes sense. Or in the, or maybe I should back that up. In the process of trying to protect your child from the world, you try to protect your child from themselves, and in doing so you perpetuate more harm. .
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, totally. I mean, even if you're thinking, and again , I share examples of this in the book, like with young kids who may or not may or may not be or trans, but are just, you know, breaking out of these very tiny boxes we have for what it means to be a boy and a girl in our society. And so the little boy who wants to paint his nails, like, and, and parents sometimes have a very visceral reaction to that going like, you're gonna be bullied. People are gonna be mean to you. Like, you can't do that. And like, I , that's about the world now. How do we support, you know, young people in their autonomy to make that decision for themselves and kind of have an informed consent approach, like, Hey, you may experience this because of that, and how do I prepare you? And that those are really hard lines because we don't wanna, you know, scare our kids into not being themselves. Um, and we don't want them to go out into the world completely clueless to what they may experience. And so sometimes that looks like, you know, coaching them with some responses, Hey, if somebody doesn't like the way you're wearing your hair or the color you picked out, or what could you say? Or what, like that like look like. And sometimes it's letting them choose not to paint their nails. Or like, I remember when Rebecca was really little , um, before we knew she was the girl she is, she was, you know , um, navigating the world as this perceived boy who liked girl things, if you will. Like, and that's a really simplistic statement. But , um, and so she would, you know, her favorite color was pink and we taught her, you know, colors are for everyone and that's what she could tell people, but at some point the kind of bullying she was experiencing led her to say, my favorite color is anything but pink. And she stopped picking the pink. And that broke my heart more than anything else. Like, I wanted to shake her and say, no, you be you, you go out, you love your pink. But that's no more helping her or supporting her or centering her than telling her she can't like any of those things. And so letting , um, young people really develop that self trust to navigate those experiences and being that support and that person who can kind of talk through the possibilities, but then really actually follow their lead. Like, we are so bad at this as an adult centered society. And so, so much of the book, I would argue like that raising gender diverse kids well is just raising kids well. Like they're the premises of good parenting. And it's not to say I got it all right, not at all. But, but the things I learned along the way I think are, are just good approaches to raising up young people.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And that kind of like adult centered narrative of society also expands into faith communities. And like when we've worked in a multitude of different faith communities and churches and we always say we wanna support young people and yet we don't . And I think that there are some things that, that we can take from this conversation about how do we create a culture of empowering kids to know that they have agency and they have a voice. And I think we haven't done that for so long that many young people don't see that space in specifically in faith communities, and they're just kind of over it, which I don't blame them. I am too. I'm over it. And I do think that, you know, how do we develop or change or reorient our culture and our societies where, where adults are not the only ones that have agency. And and I know that can be a cultural thing. Like there are cultures around the world where there is kind of a centeredness of elders and ancestors and all those types of things, but with a lot of the rhetoric that is happening, we treat kids like they just don't know anything and they don't have any kind of ability to make a decision. And so, yeah, I've just always wondered how do we begin kind of that reorientation because that is the foundation of the narrative of a lot of anti-trans legislation and a lot of anti-trans rhetoric is that kids cannot make this decision for themselves when we know scientifically that that is not necessarily the case because , uh, gender affirming care saves lives. And if that is the case, then we should be listening to our children more. And so I just wonder about, you know, in our faith communities and in society in general, beginning to make a shift in, it's not just our elders that know it all, but and also kids have agency in their lives too.
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, when we look at, at a church , uh, you know, overwhelmingly we see churches across denominations in decline and, and we wonder where all the young people are. And we wonder where young people go after they hit high school or they graduate high school. Um, and yet if we've sat them in pews and told them to be seen and not heard for all of this time , um, I think , uh, there's a new book out from Lyle Grinder who does a lot of work in youth ministry called Youth are Leading or Leaving. And I think that's a really like powerful sentiment. And I haven't read the book yet, but um, the title along Loan tells us so much about if we wanna create a church that is , um, relevant and dynamic and um , really encompasses the body of Christ in all of its , um, parts. It includes people of all ages. And and that's not what we've seen. And so I think it starts really with really young kids. It looks like not, it looks like bringing kids to worship. It looks like not , um, getting upset when there's a baby crying or when , um, my kids were notorious for like showing up to communion in like whatever dress up costume they'd be playing in that morning. And like very much as you are, I always joked that as a, a pastor's wife, which is something that I never thought I would be and as a weird title for me, but , um, as a pastor's wife, like my kids were a handful and we really were come as you are to Sunday worship. And I thought that my service to the community was to make sure that every other parent knew that their kid was fine because they were always gonna be better than the pastor's kids . And so if our kids could be, you know, really just kids and , and know that their voice mattered and they were welcome there and it ruffled feathers and we had to do some education and teaching along the way . But , um, instead of, and this this ties into one of the things that I love about doing inclusion work around, around gender and creating gender inclusive spaces is that when we create more gender inclusive spaces, we create spaces that are more inclusive for all people. We break down those boxes. We create spaces for all of us to show up more fully as ourselves. And I think that's true when we create kid inclusive spaces too. When we stop saying, you have to come to worship in this community or show up in our faith community looking like this, acting like this. Have all your stuff together, you know , um, be all polished and shiny. When we break that down for young people, it starts to break that down for people of all ages to show up and be more real and be themselves and know that they are loved. And um, and that like faith and community is messy. Kids teach us that. And so if we can , um, start to embrace that for them, then that transforms community for all of us.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I've also noticed a lot of times, you know, like I have nephews now and you see continued patterns of, you know, when you were growing up and, and all this is kind of fresh for me 'cause I've been around family for the past few weeks and you know, you see patterns developing and you see in some ways kids not kind of restraining themselves in a way to kind of fit a mold that, you know, we were taught how to be or how we were taught in ways that this is what it looks like to grow up. This is what it looks like to grow up as a girl. This is what it looks like to grow up as a boy. Like you play certain sports, you do all these things and there's such a big, there's such a big kind of permanence to that, but it's, but it's a false, permanent ideology that I think that I think people hold onto so much that they just think it's that concrete way of being. And when you see glimpses of it breaking a little bit within society or within like other kids and having parents that are letting them do what they want to do, it is just very interesting on the opposite end of it to see the other side of, you know, kids kind of perpetuating the cycles that we were all taught. And it's just really interesting when you're that close with it and you see it in your own family and in own spaces. It does reiterate how kind of powerful that is. Like this binary is. And I don't think, you know, often we realize the power of it in until you see, unfortunately, until you see kids struggling with it so much so that they're causing, you know, self harm or they're going into depression and, and it takes those types of things to kind of shake people and get people to understand that this is important. And I wonder how we aren't , I wonder how we are more prescriptive in sad ways of kind of breaking these cycles instead of being so reactive. You know, even these laws and people are only talking about it because of that. And I'm like, this is, we should have been talking about this way before, way before this got to here . And because the people who are against it started a long time ago and this has always been their goal. And so I wonder about those kind of like prescriptive ways instead of us being so reactive, you know, what are those ways that we can be prescriptive? Because it shouldn't take the ultimate tragedy for us to wake up and say, well, maybe we should have done more. Or what can we do now? If that makes sense. Yeah,
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean I think it's up to each and every one of us to kind of be a disruptor of, of the binary, of, of these gender, of the, like it's the air we breathe before babies are born. We wanna know, it's the first question when someone's expecting a child or growing a family. Is it a boy or a girl? Is it a boy or a girl? And once we have the answer to that, then all of those thoughts and expectations like just pile on from there. We like think about the, the concept of gender reveal parties and announcements and what that means. And the way we watch people rejoice when they find out, oh, we're having a boy. Well why is that so exciting? What have you ascribed to that idea that brought you so much joy? Now? Are you just finding out more information about who this young person might be? Cool if we can hold that loosely, that's beautiful, but that's not what we're raised to, to do. We're raised to go, I'm having a boy, he is gonna play football, he is gonna do this. And that's when we see parents and any, any adult who caress about a young person. The the ones that struggle the most when a child comes out , um, or transitions are those that have the most expectations. 'cause it's not about the young person, it's about our own expectations and everything we've put on them that we have to change. And so I love to just be a very steady disruptor, you know, whether it's when I'm giving gifts to family members that are having babies or to young children, or when I hear something said that like, you know, oh, he's going to , you know, break some girl's heart someday , well, or there's so much problematic with that statement, let's be real. But being the person that says, or maybe a he will be in a relationship with a man or a non-binary person or whatever that may be. And , and maybe we don't need to worry about 'em breaking hearts, but having healthy relationships. But maybe that's too far. But those little things, because I think even the most , um, well meaning folks, those who are um, who know someone loves someone, whatever that may be , who think they are good allies, don't realize the way they are perpetuating these ideas because it's so ingrained in us. I mean, I eat, sleep and breathe this work and there will still be things that like sneak up on me and I'm like, oh, I just said that. Like, that's something that was stored someone somewhere real back in my brain like to, to think that idea. And so getting into the habit of just kind of checking ourselves and checking the people around us kindly like, we don't need to go out wielding this as a sword because I think that can too often happen and that's not healthy for anyone, but in gentle, Hey, I wonder why that idea came up. Or maybe we could flip that and look at it in a different way. Because the more often we do that we kind of , um, break in like that , that we see those kind of spaces where we start to see more possibility. And again, this helps far more than the trans kids, than the gender diverse kids, than even the kids. It helps us all to be more free to be ourselves. And so I think starting from the very beginning is helpful. Having conversations when we get to the legislative stuff like it is, it's all, all part of the same continuum, like you were saying, like it's all connected, you can't separate them. And yet also understanding that what's happening right now is that these young people are being used as a political football. This isn't about , um, this being the issue anyone cares most deeply about or wanting to protect or save anyone. This is the thing that is , um, is scary. And so it has riled people up because people are motivated by fear and there's so much misinformation that causes that. You know, I remember I was getting like lab work done, blood drawn recently and um, the, the phlebotomist saw my shirt or made some comment and I said, oh yeah, I have a trans kid. And they're like, oh my gosh, isn't it awful they're doing surgeries on these young children? And I was like, no, they're not. And this is like a medical professional. And so you hear those things and here's the thing, if I heard that they were doing surgeries on, you know, five-year-olds because they said they were a different gender than we thought they were, I would be alarmed too, because that's not medically appropriate or evidence-based or what is expected out of gender affirming care. And so being willing to disrupt to the narrative, whether that is this binary notions of gender and expectations or the very real misinformation that's being intentionally spread to rile up fear and confusion and outrage about these kids.
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: Your book also references the going beyond sort of the phrase or the perspective of all are welcome, which I'll be perfectly honest is not something that I had thought about until I read that in, you know, in the, in the description for your book. And I actually really appreciate that because all they're welcome is not it . I say this with love to those that use the phrase, it's really not enough . It's a, you can come in the door, but we expect you. But when you come through the door, we do expect you to be a certain way, even even outside of the conversation around gender. It's, we, like you were saying, we expect you to sit down and be quiet. We expect you to dress a certain way. We expect you expect you to behave a certain way. And the flip side of all our welcome is that you're welcome to come through the door. You're also welcome to walk back out that door. No one may tell you that you need to leave, but you'll know when you need to leave. And so what you're doing is you're challenging us to go beyond that and to think about, it's not just about welcome, it's about, as you said, inclusion and acceptance and affirmation and, and celebrating each individual. It's just hard to put that into a slogan. So everyone goes with all are welcome. But I really appreciate that you are challenging folks to think what it looks like to make that commitment at a very deep level. I think that's, that's really profound.
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean all our welcome is such a tricky phrase because it's used by so many, you know, so you can say all are welcome to come here, but are , am I welcome to serve? Am I welcome to be a leader in this space? Am I welcome to teach Sunday school? Am I welcome or or do you just want my check and for me to sit in the pew and and to be quiet? And so , um, we think about that like when we think about people, like , uh, am I welcome or are you going to bless my marriage? Are you going to perform my wedding ceremony? Like what level of the welcome is here? And then, yeah, okay, so maybe we do those things. We've got that level of inclusion and acceptance. What does it look like to say you are welcome to come to my party and this is my space and sure you can come and join us. Versus what does it look like to create a space that is owned and that is shared by all of those people where someone is not just a guest but can actually be a co-creator of that space. And and that's where we start to see a shift, whether it's talking about young people and how they get to co-create our , in our faith communities or trans people or people or whatever that may be . Um , I also like to push like all are welcome. I I'm all for like, we don't wanna create mono lists . The goal of the work of inclusion is not so that we can all agree or all all spout the same ideas. We're all vote the same way or whatever it may be. Like that's not the goal. Um, so how do we avoid being exclusive in the name of inclusivity? And in that case we really have to look at what does it look like to keep people safe. So maybe many beliefs can be welcome here, but not all behaviors can be welcome here. So like when my daughter transitioned, we were , um, my spouse was the pastor of a small congregation in a rural conservative part of New Jersey. Now I know rural and conservative in New Jersey don't mean what they mean elsewhere, but there were cows in my backyard. So like we, we had some rural cred , um, and we really weren't sure how this was gonna go. Um, we, our congregation was full of good and loving people and most of them, nearly all of them had never met a trans person that they were aware of. And so , um, we, you know, talked to our bishop, went through all of those steps and we were prepared to lose everything. We were prepared. We lived in a, a church owned home, a parsonage. Um, we were prepared to do whatever was necessary to keep our kids safe. And we knew that a possibility of that would be not staying in our church. And then we told our church, Hey, you don't have to agree with us. You don't have to endorse our parenting decisions. You don't need to come to church waving your pride flags. This is what we need you to do. You can have all the questions you want and we will do our best to either answer them for you or get you connect you to someone else that can answer them. But you can't answer those. Ask those questions of Rebecca or in front of Rebecca. And so we put this little bubble of protection around her. And the second thing was you have to use her name and pronouns, non-negotiable. But we didn't say, you need to agree and say that I understand this. I support this in all of those things. And so by doing that, we created space to protect the most vulnerable while giving , um, the folks around us time to come along on this journey and learn with us and ask their questions and have clunky questions and ideas and things they wondered. And um, the first Sunday that Rebecca showed up at church as herself, the person who I thought, if someone is going to like cause a problem, it's this guy. He had an opinion about everything and everyone on his Facebook page knew it. And , um, those opinions did not align with my opinions to say the very least. And , um, after worship that Sunday, I watched as he made a beeline for my spouse at the end of worship, you know, to shake hands and walk out. And I held my breath and he said, listen, I don't understand this whole transgender thing, but she used to hide behind you and refuse to say hi to me on a Sunday morning. And today you ran up to me twirled in her dress and gave me a high five. What more is there to know? And like that is the foundation for the work we do and for creating that space. And so like, how do we move this from issues to human beings, to seeing the humanity in each of us and creating space where we don't have to check all the boxes, say all the right things, but we're still trying to keep people safe because we can't let people's opinions or lack of education , um, just do harm. We have to be mindful of safety, but still create that space for us all to be together. Like that's what's cool about Communities of Faith is that I think they're one of the rare places where we are in community with people who believe differently, but that's only a really beautiful gift if we have a mind towards safety.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's, that's kind of a , a good practical thing for people to hear is that, you know, if, if no place is gonna be perfectly safe, but I do think there are ways to cultivate a culture and just that story, you know, I , I've heard so many stories like that of people kind of being transformed about seeing someone liberated and how that has impacted their own kind of way of, of seeing an issue. And I think it's so important for, for people to kind of be a witness to, to the authenticity of people because I mean, from my own experience, it has changed people's entire opinions about me because I was very depressed for a very long time. And I do think people see a completely different person than they once saw at one time. And I think that that is very, very important for people to be open to and to witness the active liberation of and trans people as they're figuring it out. Because it is transformative. It's one of the ways, I mean, you can just see the spirit at work in that, and I think it's just, yeah, I completely agree. Faith communities can be a great place for that to be witnessed, and I just hope people make time and space for them to be able to witness that. So I think it's, that's like a, that's a beautiful thing. Um, but we did want to give you some time to talk explicitly about the book. And the book is called Raising Kids Beyond the Binary, A great resource. And yeah, just tell us a little bit more about the book, where we can get it, all those things. Uh, yeah. And we'll have a link to the show in the show notes to the book. But yeah, tell us a little bit about the book.
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely. So raising kids beyond the binary, celebrating God's transgender and gender diverse children, it is really meant to be a resource for anyone who cares about young people. And so the primary audience we might think of as like parents or people in direct relationship with young people, but then I like to think about like faith leaders and pastors and adults who work with young people and teachers and all of those kinda reading over their shoulder because it is, it is part story. It is , um, part handbook. It is a toolkit. There are so, so many resources in it. Um, I I tell in the book at one point, like when we , uh, registered my daughter for public school, we, I walked into the office and I was like, I need a meeting with the principal and I need him to read this packet of information first. Well, this book is like that packet of information, but across, you know, faith school and all of these other things. And so , um, it's been really awesome to hear the feedback about it and the way it's resonating across generations. It's been a real favorite with grandparents who are like, Hey, I just don't understand all of this. Tell me what the words mean. Tell me how to think about this. Give me an understanding. And so , um, it's a tool and a resource. It is unabashedly rooted in faith, but I've heard from folks that have no faith connection that it's been really helpful too . It's available pretty much wherever books are sold. Um, uh, broadleaf Books is the publisher, Amazon Bookshop , all the kind of Barnes and Noble, all the places. Um, and yeah.
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: Well, Jamie , thank you so much for being with us and for this book. I'm really looking forward to, to reading it in more depth and we're so grateful for the resource that it provides, not just for for youth, but for parents because parents need help too, and we forget that sometimes. So thank you so much for the book as well as for being with us today.
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of A Matter of Faith . We want you to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and lead the podcast a review and give us five stars. We love that. If you have any questions for us, send them to Faith podcast@pcusa.org and check out our website, a matter of faith podcast.com, and we will talk to you again next week.