Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / Israel at 78: The Challenge of Memorial and Celebration
Transcript
- Orly Erez Likhovski: Welcome back to the Pluralist podcast from both sides of the ocean. And this week we're going to talk about Yom HaZikaron Memorial Day and Yom HaAtsma'ut Independence Day. We are now while we're going to enter Yom HaZikaron in just a couple of So they're always very solemn and difficult and challenging days in Israel. And this has become even more difficult and challenging over the last few years and especially since October 7th and under this government. Josh, are you on the other side of the ocean? ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Hi Orly Bokertov, good to be with you and thank you. Of course, you know, I'm sitting here far away and it's a little bit difficult. These are one of the hardest times I think to be away from Israel when we're watching what's going on and, you know, making our own. There are lots of ceremonies and lots of observances and, you know, celebrations here, it's not quite the same. Can you just paint for our listeners a picture of the feelings that you're going into in a few hours, siren is going to sound and everyone's going to enter this 24 hour period of deep mourning. I'm thinking about it, you really along the lines of one verse that keeps coming up for me. It's the verse from Psalm 126 that we, we of course, ⁓ you recite before Birkat HaMazon on Shabbat. And in fact, a few people know this, it was actually a runner up to be the national anthem instead of Hatikva. And the one line I'm thinking about really sort of captures it all is, ⁓ who sow with tears will will benefit with joy. And I feel like that captures this sort of 48 hours bipolar emotional roller coaster. So Orly, I feel like there's something different this year, especially marking the one year anniversary the the pogrom on the Raanana synagogue that I know you'll have a lot to say about. tell us the different ceremonies that are now around Israel. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so I think I just came back from the office home to record this, I was thinking about exactly a year ago when I drove Raanana, the Reform Synagogue in Raanana, to attend the screening of Israeli-Palestinian ceremony, memorial ceremony of the parents' families forum and Combatants for Peace. And I remember myself driving there thinking, you know, they might need some support, never of course understanding what we are all going to experience. And I guess our listeners have heard about this, but it ended with a violent of hundreds of people storming the synagogue, trying to break in, even succeeding one time. Dozens of people attacked leaving the synagogue after the screening ended, subject to violence, know, kicking. having bottles thrown at us, course cursing, spitting at us. I injured, my windshield of my car, once I got into the car, was broken by a stone and I got a blow to my shoulder. And it was one of my most traumatic experiences over the last 20 years. I think it was a moment to the liberal camp in Israel as a whole because Josh Weinberg: and you yourself were injured, Orly Erez Likhovski: showed so many people what we're up against and the amount of hatred and intolerance to anybody you're not agreeing with. And this sense, I think it was a traumatic event. And while I was driving today, was sort of reminding myself this. yeah, I relived couple of, know, a lot during the last year, especially I went to treatment for my, you know, ⁓ it is a experience for me. But what's even more, Josh Weinberg: So sort of reliving that moment in your mind. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: outrageous is that a year later, nobody brought to justice. So actually last week, I got I not I actually was even not notified by the police. I actually entered the system to check what's going on with my complaint. And I saw that was closed because the police failed find anybody responsible, right? So there were like 300 people, nobody was found. You know, they just don't know who did it. You know, who knows? You know, that's why that what they've been doing for a year. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. It's impossible to figure out. So Orly, we zoom out for a second and just remind people, what were they so upset about particularly? It wasn't necessarily that they weren't protesting a reform synagogue, even though the reform synagogue was hosting the ceremony. Just take us through the steps a little bit so we understand the bigger picture. Orly Erez Likhovski: And man, sure. Yeah, well, by the way, I think the fact that it was screening in a reform synagogue did play a role because the you know, it's more like the one protest against the screening of the ceremony that took place in many places, but the was in front of the synagogue. So I think it was like a mix of a lot of things. people were, you know, protesting the fact that Josh Weinberg: Okay, okay. Orly Erez Likhovski: Jews and Palestinians together are mourning their loved ones. There was a lot of fake news going around in Israel saying that this is a ceremony that celebrates, you know, Palestinian terrorists, which is of course rubbish. It's actually saying, you know, we should stop the bloodshed make, try to bring about the future of peace instead of just saying, you know, how terrible it is that we've lost so many people, but also thinking how can we change this reality? ⁓ so I that this ceremony is very debatable. A lot of Israelis feel at this day, Josh Weinberg: you Orly Erez Likhovski: that it's a time to think about Israelis who have their lives, soldiers. Right, so for many people it's very hard and it's okay, right? But this is a way that some families who lost their loved ones choose to commemorate this day and of course should be respected. I think it showed a lot about our democracy the use of violence to silence critical voices. Josh Weinberg: This is a moment to be about ourselves, you're saying, right? Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: you know, this is just one ceremony that is happening. I can tell you that today I'm going to watch it from home on my computer like I always do. ⁓ each one, you know, there are a lot of ceremonies in going around it. Each one really does it in their own way, which this is how it should be. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Yeah, I want to ask. I want to ask you about this. I'm just constantly baffled by those who instead of going to their own ceremony, take the time to go protest someone else's ceremony. I mean, we when we talk about, you know, other issues, I'm thinking about, like, like abortion in the United States. My basic premise, it's not terribly profound, but like if you don't want to have an abortion, don't have. And if you don't want to drive on Shabbat, don't drive on Shabbat. Don't tell me that I can't, you know, and it's like Orly Erez Likhovski: Meh. Meh. Don't. Yeah. Yeah, it's by the way, it's exactly what I told those protesters last year. told them, listen, it's inside closed building. It's not even in a public square. You don't watch it. Just don't. But of course, ⁓ whole premise of live and let live is something that is alien for those people. So it's the same for the wall. We have the egalitarian Josh Weinberg: Right. Orly Erez Likhovski: know, prayer space, you know, you can go to the segregated one, what do you care? No, it's like, you know, having a control over everything believing that there is only one right way and all the others are like a great, you know, scene. And so it's a basic deep democratic principles. I do want to remind our that since October 7th, we have, you know, the big issue of unbelievable failure of Israel that, you know, Josh Weinberg: Right. Right. Orly Erez Likhovski: did not cause October 7th, but caused the gravity of the massacre, the failure to prevent the failure to, once happening, to bring So it was a huge failure. Exactly. And the fact that there has not been a state commission of inquiry is a very big thing in commemorating Memorial Day because the families who lost, thousands of families who lost their loved ones on this date are saying, listen, until you actually Josh Weinberg: or the failure to prevent. ⁓ to intervene and to... Orly Erez Likhovski: down and investigate what happened. We cannot bring you know a closure to our own mourning and so on Saturday night They held a ⁓ ceremony in Habima Square in Tel Aviv which called instead of a memorial ceremony a forgetting ceremony Yom HaShikachon instead of Zikaron because they said it's like you have forgotten what we've sacrificed for because you don't even you know Actually checking and examining happened there. So I think this is like a huge part Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Mmm. ⁓ Wow. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: of Memorial Day in Israel since October 7th. Josh Weinberg: I'm always thinking about our good friend, Anat Hoffman, who reminds us that there was no in the Hebrew language for accountability. she claims to having invented it, right? And introducing to the Hebrew lexicon. And that is to your that there has not been any governmental yet for this day that we live in infamy. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and I think if I'm in general, think first of all, the ⁓ transition between Memorial Day and Independence Day has always been difficult, but I think the whole Memorial Day has become almost unbearable after October 7th. I remember the first Memorial Day in 2024. I really dreaded it because it's just understanding that many people who have lost their lives and added to the fallen soldiers and people who died in terror attacks. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: really hard to understand the magnitude, right? Because there's just so many people and some people say, you know, just pick one, two, three, four stories because otherwise you can just get lost and not understand how terrible it was. So I think like for me, it's important to tell the stories of people who lost their lives, but also to think, you know, how can we change this endless cycle of violence and bloodshed? And think most Israelis at this day, don't think about that. think, okay, let's, you know, sort of focus this day on those people who paid, you know, the heaviest price and of course their families. Unfortunately, I don't think a lot of people think about how do we reach peace even in the other 364 days, right? So I mean, that's one of our problems, trying to bring about a real change. So we will not be adding more and more names. But another thing that I should add that because on October 7th, so many people died, I think now there isn't one person in Israel that does not know someone who died in massacre. And so in this sense, sort of the of grief has widened dramatically. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: You're say, yes, exactly. Yeah. look, and just looking at the numbers that, now in the past year, we've lost 174 soldiers and 79 civilians since the last Yom We know, I think another startling statistic is 21 soldiers who fought in the have died by suicide, which just... heartbreaking and tragic. look, and you know, we're living that and going into this moment these days with all of this, you know, sort of carrying with us is just ⁓ hard so difficult. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah, and you know, there's lot of talk now about obviously, you know, post trauma, it's called moral injuries, right? So a lot of people even who do not have post trauma, but feel they have been injured morally by watching terrible things while, you know, ⁓ fighting in Gaza or in other places. ⁓ I think there's obviously more awareness to those ⁓ of, you know, phenomenon and the need to treat them. You know, at least are aware, but Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Yeah, even if they don't make the headlines or if they don't, you know, it's not necessarily identifiable in the public sphere. It's underlying there, right? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, and you know, that's sort of Memorial Day, but I think it's really important for me also to talk about independence day and what it means for us. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Yeah, was going to ask you, like, how are you thinking about and how are you preparing yourself for the transition that once the sun sets on Yom HaZikaron and you move into Independence Day, are you celebrating this year? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Well, first of all, know, many of our congregations hold havdallah ceremonies between zikaron and atzma'ut. So havdallah is of from Day to Independence Day. And it's beautiful ceremony that's been going on for years now, also in my congregation, in Mevasseret Tzion So you start talking those who lost their lives, but then you're transitioning. Josh Weinberg: I love it. It's amazing. Orly Erez Likhovski: into what we have and being grateful for what we have and sort of looking for a brighter future. So I think this transitioning is really, really needed and necessary. And I think a lot of our congregations are doing that because otherwise it's so abrupt and difficult. And especially obviously, as we have very, very difficult government and we keep saying, you know, that we have to differentiate between the government and the people. But it's very hard, around holidays, national holidays, and ceremonies that are being produced. you know, ⁓ the is responsible for them. It's very hard because feel, I would say the immediate feeling is alienation toward many of those celebrations. then you're like, okay, if I'm not part of those national celebrations, then where am I? And how do I celebrate? And so I think over last few years, especially after October 7th, we've seen more and more Josh Weinberg: Hmm. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: alternative celebrations that are being initiated by the civil society. And thank God we have an amazing civil society contrast to a terrible, awful, government. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Ahem. So what you're saying essentially is that, you know, for so many years had one state ceremony and here's word that we can't translate to English so well, that they were mamlachti they were sort of national, you know, apolitical but stately. I mean, I think that's the best way to look at it. And if I understand you correctly, Orly, it seems like you're saying that, you know, over the past two years, the state ceremonies have taken on themselves a political agenda. Orly Erez Likhovski: Mamlachati. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: almost, you know, and especially with who's being asked to participate in those ceremonies and who is, know, sort of the, the legendary honorific of, you know, being a torchbearer and lighting the torch. You yourself penned, I think, a really powerful op-ed in Haaretz, you know, criticizing one of the decisions of who should light the torches. Do you want to say a word about that? ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, you but before that, I want to take us a little back to the history because when I'm thinking about Independence Day, when I was growing up, every house had a flag, an Israeli flag on it, which we hung every year for a week before Yom HaAtzma'ut. So it was like that. And then we had, you know, flags on the car. So it was, you know, later when I grew up. So it was like... Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: A consensus, right? And I remember like being real, real excited and everybody was sitting down in front of the television, the one channel that we had and watching the torchbearer, you know, the lighting of the torches which is like, you know, kind of, kind of weird ceremony because it a very like military aspect to it. it was like, you know, how do you say in English? ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Yeah, you could compare it to like, you know, old other like Soviet ceremonies or something like that, but whatever, you know. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, how do you say in English, Medurat Hashavet? Like, you the... Josh Weinberg: there's this sitting the campfire you know, the ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so everybody's like, everybody's like, you know, one, you know, people watching the same thing and feeling, I would say, connected to it. And this has changed even before October 7, even before this government. Like over the years, people felt more sort of, I think, alienated toward this. I remember years ago, probably over a decade ago, I felt I couldn't hang a flag in my home and instead I hung a flag that said peace. So not like the regular flag because I wanted it to declare something. And I think especially with a flag, a lot of liberal Israelis had a very complicated relationship and they felt the flag has become so associated with extreme right-wing people that it has been taken from us. And I think the amazing thing that we saw during the pro-democracy protest of 2023 was exactly the reclaiming of the flag and people saying, Josh Weinberg: Hmm. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: You you can't take it from us the same that you can't take the state of Israel from us. This is our flag as it is yours. And you remember the sea of flags, right? In Tel Aviv, in the ports, in other places. Josh Weinberg: thought it was such an important and sort of collective decision to come and sort of reclaim the flag and say, actually, and for me, it also represented a reclaiming of the concept in the term of Zionism. ⁓ And say like, no, actually, our flag stands for the values of a and democratic state, the values laid out in Megillat HaAtzmaut which I want to touch on as well. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Exactly. And by the way, in the protest, used of the Declaration of Independence, so it was sort of the reclaiming ⁓ the Declaration of Independence as a major symbol of what it means to be Israeli. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, you know, and I'm thinking about that. I'm thinking about, our own, know, much more observance. you know, whenever I sit around tables representing the reform movement, whether it's at the Conference of Presidents of major American Jewish organizations or the Jewish Agency, the World Zionist Organization, I introduced myself as a religious Zionist, you know, as religious with a with a small R in that, know, Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah. Josh Weinberg: I believe deeply in what Ben-Gurion tried to establish here and that Yom HaTzmaut was going to be a holiday like the other holidays in the Jewish calendar. And it would have the symbols, you know, the same symbols of other holidays. Like we would have a festive meal. I think we call that a mangal now, you know, and we would say special Kiddush and would, you know, have a day off, of course. ⁓ And would Orly Erez Likhovski: You By the way, by the way, the only holiday where we have public transportation because it's not a religious holiday. So that's wonderful. Josh Weinberg: Right, Yeah. mean, Purim and Hannukah and all those holidays too that you have this similar things, but also like what's the text that we read? So some in observant or religious world have whole debate about whether you should add the specific prayers for festivals like the halal prayer. And we in the reform movement definitely do. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Hallel's religious reform Zionists with a Bracha of course. And what are we going to read? And I love the fact in the modern times, the text that's almost like a haftarah, like a prophetic text that's chosen is in fact, Megillat Ha Atzmaut And we read it even with Ta'amei Mikra, with tropes. ⁓ ⁓ at the plaza, yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Right. Yeah, you know, we had there was a ceremony yesterday that the yeah, they got a plan of reading the Declaration of Independence with trope was initiated by the World Zionist Organization. So that's that's beautiful. I think really taking this back and saying this is what matters. This is our motto. This is, know, why we're here. And this is sort of the light unto nations that we want Israel to be. And, you despite the fact that we know how far we are from it, but we have it in front of our eyes. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, you know, the Declaration of Independence itself, Megillat HaAtzmaut you know, it's really divided into two parts. It's one that tells the story of who we are, know, establishes our collective narrative, and then also shares our aspirations what the state can be. And I want to I wanted to ask you, like, what what's inspiring to this year as you enter into these moments of mourning and celebration. Orly Erez Likhovski: So I think, as I said, I think the gap between what needs to be and what we have is huge. But I think because it's so huge, the vision is clearer than ever. So we have the vision in front of our eyes. And I think the fact that in the Declaration of Independence, was reaching a hand for peace. the Arab nations and just imagining that they wrote it in the middle of a bloody war is inspiring, right? I mean look at what happens now how we are from peace So I think it and especially words that are you know that the state of Israel should be based on the principles of freedom Justice and peace as envisaged and envisioned by the prophets of Israel So I think this is also really important in telling is well is listen. This is how a Jewish and democratic Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: state should be. This is what Judaism is about, right? Not what we're seeing now. for me, it's even more important. And as you said about sort of talking about Zionism, there are a lot of talks in Israel and I know a lot of talks in North America about whether people define themselves as Zionists and what does it mean, right? Especially in the face of this government. And I think we really should relate to it, treat it as we did the flag, right? So we should reclaim our Zionism and say, know, Zionism, you know, at its core and when the Zionism was founded, as Herzl, Herzl, you know, about it, Zionism is not having a state of our own for the Jews, Jewish people, but also having state which would be a light unto nations, right? A state which would be based on the values of equality of, ⁓ you know, tikkun olam, right? ⁓ a better society, having, you know, full equality to the Palestinians of Israel, you know, offering peace. This is Zionism and not what we're seeing now. And as you said, the religious Zionism party with a large R, with a capital R, Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: That's like, that's a distortion, right? That's not Zionism. I think it's important to state it outright and say, take it back, right? And not just give it away as we say about Israel in general, right? So really sort of taking us back to the course, to the right course. I think it's important to talk with Israelis with people outside of Israel all year, year round, but especially on Yom HaAtzmaut Josh Weinberg: Well, I think that's incredibly powerful and I couldn't agree more, obviously. And I think that too often I have conversations in the diaspora and I just spent this weekend with, you know, a couple hundred reform movement leaders with the URJ board who are really struggling, really struggling. like, first I just want to say that for me, Yom HaAtzmaut is a day to sort of sit back and acknowledge everything that Israel has created. Everything that has come. And like, it's like this Hollywood story, if you think about it. Now I have 364 days to be critical. Okay. I had to say, how have we not lived up to the dream and look at the government and look at the settler violence and look at the, failure, you know, we know the long list and listen to all of the other episodes of this podcast. Um, and you know, Atzmaut for me is one day to say, okay, let's celebrate, you know, like if, if you call your uncle, and say happy birthday, but you know, you're really a difficult person and I have a lot of trouble with you and but happy birthday, you know. Orly Erez Likhovski: You know, I have to tell you that my kids always say that my birthday blessing, I'm like, I wish you this and please be more organized and more this and they're like, that's not a blessing for the birthday. Josh Weinberg: know, I I know. And sometimes, you know, sometimes we can't help ourselves and, know, and on your birthday, we really wish you would get a lot better. And it's like, know, I sent my friend a get better card. They weren't sick. just wanted them to get a little bit better. And here it's one moment me to say that. And it's another moment to clarify that know, Zionism never meant to be easy. Okay. And that I think it asks us to hold tension and to, you know, on the basic that we as a Jewish people can have a sovereign, independent political entity in our ancestral homeland. Okay. Full stop. And aspirationally, yes, we aspire to be this chevra le'mofet, right? This exemplary that I think, you know, in ways I can point to examples of where, yes, that is the case. You think the resilience and how people just stood up without questions asked and volunteered and helped each other and came to each other's need. like, you know, it's such beautiful example. Of course, that's partially because the government wasn't to do that and didn't step in. And I'm thinking a lot about it, you know, with diaspora Jews here. And people are really struggling to disassociate the term Zionism with the policies or the behavior of the current coalition. And to me is frankly sad. And I think that the American story right now gives us actually has us a favor in reminding Americans that they can be patriotic American citizens without necessarily, and I'll be gentle here, without necessarily aligning in full with the policies or the behavior of the current administration in the United States. And I want people to look at Israel in the same way and to say, no, this is a part of us. This is central to our Jewish identity. And actually Zionism, as you beautifully said, doing that work to Orly Erez Likhovski: You Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Josh Weinberg: change actually and to fulfill that initial prophetic vision laid out in Megillat HaAtzmaut in the Declaration of Independence. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah. so, so, you know, I think for me, it's hard to say I criticize is, you know, the government for 364 days, let's celebrate it. Like for me, it's really hard to separate it. I mean, I find it hard to have like a worry free celebration. I acknowledge that this is what we should do, right? And be grateful for what we have. And as you say, we have so many Josh Weinberg: Hmm. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: so many great things here, right? And obviously like, you know, our home. But, it's, think, especially since October 7th and you know, the fact that we said, okay, we need a state to have our own homeland in order for us to be safe. And obviously, Israelis are safe nor Jews around the world are safe. So I think this is sort of something that has been really unsettling for since October 7th, also saying, well, This was the promise, right? Did we fulfill this promise or haven't we fulfilled this promise? So that's like, right, right, right. So I think that's probably on many, you know, the mind of many people, know, during this time with, you know, constant attacks on, you know, synagogues and Jewish institutions. Josh Weinberg: Or have we regressed? mean, yeah. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: all around the world, right? Whether it's in England or North America or Australia or so many places. So think for me, that's also very unsettling In general, on the other hand, you say, the whole world has gone crazy, right? It's not one state or the other. We are seeing really, really disturbing phenomenon globally across the globe. And then the question is, what can we do about that? And I think one thing that we should do is to try to make sure that at least the homeland of the Jewish people should be Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: the state that we want it to be and that it should be welcoming to all Jews as it should be, As is ⁓ the Declaration of Independence, really the gathering of the exiles and the fact that it is the home that every Jew should feel home. And of course, non-Jew, non-Jewish citizens should at home as well. And so those are of my thoughts around this. I do want to say, because you before the... this year's ceremony of the torch, lighting, whatever, I don't know how he said it in English. In it's had like, yeah, a torch lighting. So, you know, every year the government picks 12 people. They're supposed be very remarkable and impressive, either in specific fields or in, you know, contribution to society. And there used to be, some kind of, you know, disagreement, public, know, maybe criticism, ⁓ but it was of within, I would say like the, Josh Weinberg: Yeah, the torch lighting ceremony, think. Orly Erez Likhovski: the limits of, you most people said, you know, I wouldn't pick those people, but that's okay. And think over last year, it has become really, really insane. And especially this year, it started the fact that ⁓ one of the torchbearers is a person who was by Netanyahu after October 7th to be in charge of releasing the hostages, Gal Hirsch. And he was very, very critical toward the families the hostages. Josh Weinberg: ⁓ a retired general in the army and yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and he was very critical toward the families of the hostages, actually really publicly for their calls and protests demanding that their loved ones be brought back. for the of the hostages, it was like a major blow. Like, how could you celebrate this person? Yeah, yeah, that not only did not help us, but actually attacked us. Josh Weinberg: ⁓ it was a total gut punch for them. Yeah. I saw one commentator said, was just a play on the name. said, you should invite Hersh's mother not Gal Hirsch right? That saying you should invite the mother of of course, slain hostage Goldberg Polin ⁓ to light torch or any. ⁓ He have of course alive to yes. Orly Erez Likhovski: ⁓ right? No, or Hersh himself right? If the government maybe would brought the captives earlier, he could have been alive. So I this was sort of one thing that was extremely outrageous by government. And as a result of public pressure at the end, one of the family members of the hostages is going to light the torch with him, Gal Hirsch, because the government understands that's like going one step too far from what the Israeli public is going to accept. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And remind us who Rabbi Zarbiv is. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so that's the other choice. person going to light a torch is a rabbi called Abraham Zarbiv He's serving as a religious judge in a rabbinical court, as he's a state employee. And he served on duty during the war after October And what he in his armory was drive like a D9, how do you call it? Like a bulldozer, A bulldozer actually ruining buildings of Palestinians. And said many ⁓ very, very to say the least, expressions saying that all of should be taken down, that he's sorry he didn't more buildings ⁓ and that basically all Palestinian should be destroyed, all Palestinians. And instead of that, Josh Weinberg: Like a bulldozer, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Jewish settlements in Gaza should be built. And he was really, really bragging about how he destroyed everything and how wonderful it is for him to destroy all the buildings in ⁓ And his name became synonym in Hebrew for the word, if you say to lezarbav, it's like to destroy, to flatten ⁓ obviously in very, very negative sense. And he, a who, Josh Weinberg: guys. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: exemplifies destruction racism and hatred was selected by the government to light a torch. And by the way, because he's serving as a rabbinical judge, we filed a complaint to the ⁓ person charge of ethics of judges saying that, right, that he's not allowed to say those. I imagine a judge talking politics, this, that. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: that he's a state employee essentially, right? Orly Erez Likhovski: and our complaint was found justified. the former judge who was in charge of ethics of judges said, you're right, it's not okay. And he should be told that this is not okay. ⁓ So of actually holding him accountable, talking about accountability, he was this reward, which is unbelievable. So yeah, was sort of what I wrote on my ⁓ op-ed in Haaretz. So on the one it's unbelievable. On the other hand, it's very believable. It's like the fact that the police didn't find anybody who was involved in the program in Raanana, it's not surprising, but still it's outrageous, right? Because I think guy, Rabbi Zarvib, is really exemplified what this government is all about, right? I mean, the fact that this government supports hatred and racism is a known fact, right? But over over again, we are shocked to find they ⁓ decide to different occasions, including Wednesday. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, it's when you walk into a bookstore and the section on dystopian reality has been moved to current events. ⁓ And you can see that. Orly Erez Likhovski: completely. Josh Weinberg: So Orly, just what is the ceremony in Tel Aviv that's happening? And who are some of the torchbearers? And that's the ceremony that we should take note of. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so the interesting thing is that a lot of people feel that they cannot watch formal governmental ceremony anymore because it is so far ⁓ our values. ⁓ so this year, an alternative torch lighting ceremony taking place in Tel Aviv in the plaza ⁓ in front Tel Aviv Museum where we used to hold all the protests calling for the release of the hostages. And so that's basically a ceremony celebrating Josh Weinberg: you Mm-hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: liberal values, democracy, equality and peace, which is really what Independence Day should be all about. So 12 people are going to light the torches that are part of either the civil society or institutions. First and Rabbi, member of Knesset Gilad Kariv, who is really one of the amazing voices for everything we believe in inside the Knesset. So that's very, I think it's a great honor that the Reform Rabbi lights one of the torches. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, we should be proud. Absolutely. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, for sure. So one of them is Gilad Kariv and then we have another politician is Bogie Elon who used to be IDF Chief of Staff and the former defense minister. used to be in the Likud, but he has become a ⁓ very vocal of the current government. We have some of the civil society, including those who established Brothers in Arms, which is one of the major ⁓ protest organizations. We have Josh Weinberg: from the good party of course, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: the CEO of Rabbis for Human Rights, Avi Dabush, who lives in the Gaza envelope and was affected, of course, by October 7th. ⁓ Rabbi, yeah, yeah, right, right, right. Rabbi Avi Dabush, of course, I'm sorry, you're right. Yes, we are very pluralistic. We members of hostage families, Kalderon, who is the cousin of Ofer Kalderon who was released. Josh Weinberg: I think we can call him Rabbi also. We recognize all streams. Orly Erez Likhovski: And we have a major general, don't know how you say, Tat Aloof i B'miloim English. Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Yeah, I think it's a... Orly Erez Likhovski: something colonial, I don't know. I don't know the ranks in English. a Druze senior army official used to serve in the army, Amal Asad. So he was one of the people who led the struggle against the nation state law, which is still obviously one of the traumatic bills that the Druze community in Israel especially fought against. Josh Weinberg: No, it's... ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: and you know that passed in 2018. have ⁓ Sumia, Sumia, ⁓ Brigadier General Amal Asad. And have Sumia Bashir, she's a Palestinian female ⁓ leader, very, very impressive. from a women wage And we have also the woman who established women wage piece, which is Yael Admi. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: He is a brigadier general. ⁓ remembered it. ⁓ Mmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: and many others, ⁓ know, civil society organizations and former members of Knesset. it's really a scientist who's head of the Israeli Academy for Sciences. I really we have talking about being grateful, right? And appreciating what we had really 12 people who are so impressive, who care so much about the Israeli society, who have done so much to bring about, to make this place a better place. And so Reform Movement is also part of this. I mean, we are, you know, going to some of our congregations are going to screen that and we are going to be there in person. So I think this is really what people are looking do on Independence Day. Something being part of a ceremony that really, really relates what we believe in. And the fact that we have to have an alternative ceremony is too bad. But ⁓ think still important to have this as a real alternative to. ceremony that we cannot be part of. So tell me Josh how you are celebrating Yom HaAtzmaut Josh Weinberg: Yeah, so I'll be here in New and we'll to kids' school celebration and there are a of tekasim for Yom HaSikaron. I'll actually be with our URJ board and doing our ceremony here. And Yom HaZikaron is always the time for me to just sit back and reflect a little bit. and look forward to celebrating with many in the Israeli community here in New York. And also trying to inspire our ⁓ and American Jewry to take a minute to think back and really reflect what this is and to say, you know, this is an opportunity for us to really deeply engage, to learn more about Israel, to think about how we ⁓ how our relationship has evolved and changed and what we can do to support Israel. And I wanna just invite people who are listening now to say, heard a lot of people say, I can't support Israel right now. I said, that's fine. But I want you to support the organizations that reflect your values. And of course, number one for me is to support the Israeli reform movement right now. And know that the movement is in ⁓ dire straits need of financial support and as much support that we can get so. I wanna invite people to dedicate their Yom HaAtzmaut to doing that. I also wanna invite people on May 17th the afternoon, we're gonna be holding a learning session that of course early you'll be part of called Israel Depth. It's an opportunity leaders really around the world to join in online and hear from experts a number of different topics from politics and activism and advocacy education. and to how we build stronger partnerships. And so really looking forward to that. So Orly, think in closing. Orly Erez Likhovski: And yeah, I think it's important because I think it's like educating people about Israel is important, right, to really get the complex and nuanced picture of what's going on because the situation is very, very difficult, it's challenging, but we have to understand that there are a lot of people trying ⁓ change the situation in both our countries. And you say, think it's important not to back. but actually to lean in to help us. Because we know that what we're doing really is relevant not only for Israelis but for really liberal Jews all over the world. And I have say that the fact that so many people care about what we do outside of Israel really strengthening for me year round and especially during Yom Josh Weinberg: Yeah. you know, you this week I was particularly inspired by two people that I met and I've met them few times before. That, of course, is Maoz Inon and Aziz Abu Sarah who are on tour now around the states promoting their book that just came out called The Future is Peace. And of course, you know, of them will have a lot to mourn on Yom Zikaron as they both lost, know, Maoz's family was murdered on October 7th and Aziz lost his brother to police violence ⁓ during the Intifada when he was a young And they have themselves to making peace. lots of people will dismiss them as being naive or being too idealistic. And what if decided that they were going to just make peace? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, during the end of father, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Josh Weinberg: Of course, there people who always trying to disrupt that. And we know that Israel has threats. of course, you know, let's the ceasefire holds with Iran and with Hezbollah and Lebanon and, you know, what's going on. Of course, what's going on in Gaza and Hamas. All things are true. But it was a moment of inspiration. And. please. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, completely. find them inspiring. can tell you that the IRAC staff went Nazareth, I think it was almost two years ago, and we met Maoz there. It was maybe six months after October And I remember he told us that he change the past, but he can the future. Josh Weinberg: Uh-huh. Orly Erez Likhovski: and he decides to forgive everyone and to look ahead and to decide how we can bring about peace. And I think he's an amazing person. can tell you that ⁓ 10 days, I'm going to attend a peace conference in Israel for the time that he's one of the people who you know, he's got to be there and he's organizing it. I guess Aziz is going to be there too. And I'm ⁓ in the middle of their book. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, beautiful. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: And I think it's important to have the word peace in our lexicon, right? Even if we say, okay, it's not around the corner. ⁓ I have it in my phone. if it's not, look, phone has a really nice democracy in Hebrew and Arabic on it. So, and the way, Maoz gave me this sticker in one of the protests in Tel Aviv. ⁓ So I it's important to... Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: to talk about this, right? And people say, ⁓ we tried peace and it didn't work. But then other people say, well, we're trying war over and over again, right? So we seem to be able to try this all the time. Why not try peace again? So I think having this vision in front of our eyes and trying to bring about leaders talk about this is huge step forward. So I think it's really, really important to get Israelis to talk about this. People hardly talk about this anymore. know we always say, you we used to have songs, right? Talking about peace, right? And, you children used to sing ⁓ songs peace and this does not happen anymore. ⁓ We to bring this back, right? Because we can't go on with a future on living on our sword forever. We need have this long-term vision of changing it. I ⁓ agree with you they're truly inspiring. And ⁓ the fact that they their, you know, their loss and turn it into something that is hopeful is amazing. And this brings us back to where we started, which is the Israeli-Palestinian joint ceremony, right? Where people say, we've lost those loved ones. We're going to take this and do whatever we can so no won't feel the pain that we are feeling. So I think that's amazing. in conclusion, like what I like, my ⁓ slogan right. We have in our anthem, in our tikvah. And this brings us back to where we started, which is the Israeli-Palestinian ⁓ joint ceremony, right? Where people say, we've lost those loved ones. going to take this and do whatever we can so no others won't feel the pain that we are feeling. So I think amazing. my ⁓ slogan is right. We have in our anthem, in our Josh Weinberg: Beautiful. Beautiful. Orly Erez Likhovski: hope is not yet lost. hope is not yet lost. And I think this is a very, very good sentence to end this with. Yeah. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I just wanted to ask you also, mean, are you able to celebrate this year or am I being too naive in my sort of birthday greeting for Israel? Orly Erez Likhovski: You know, it's I think with a very heavy heart, what we usually do is just get together with friends and, you with family and go out to the nature if ⁓ the should be nice and just a little bit. And I think especially this year after we, you know, with the war with Iran that just ended not too long ago. And, you know, the ceasefire is so fragile. Who knows how long it's going to last. I think we're with us this really, really heavy weight. So I can't say all happy, but I'm sure that like this alternative ceremony in Tel Aviv would fill me with lot of hope and inspiration. And I think we're going to see thousands, if not tenths of thousands of people there because this is what people are looking for. So I think I am yearning for, for, you know, this inspiring moments to give us a lot of energy to celebrate and to continue fighting. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, beautiful. Well, thank you, Orly. And I hope we have many more conversations about Zionism and about what this means for us today. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, for sure. yes, to all of you conversations like this are really why we this podcast. And this podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better, as we said in depth today for all who are here and for all who care about it from afar. But that takes honest conversations and it takes partnership. And if these episodes mean something to you, please share it and help us keep this conversation going. Josh Weinberg: Chag sameach. If I could say. And to stay up to date, subscribe on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to help us grow, leave a five-star review and send this episode to someone who should be part of this conversation. Maybe your review should say something like, you know, approaching these days of Yom HaZikron and Yom HaAtzmaut I was feeling somewhat ambivalent and not sure about how to think about it or how to feel about it. But now I have a great sense of clarity after listening to Orly and Josh discuss, you know, something like that. Orly Erez Likhovski: You Josh Weinberg: And if you're interested in sponsoring an episode or using it to mark an upcoming occasion, we would love to hear from you. And as always, if there's a topic you want us to explore, reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you. Chag sameach v'shalom. Orly Erez Likhovski: Bye bye, thank you.