Latest / Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast / BPS 340: Oscar® Winner Russell Carpenter A.S.C. - Shooting Blockbusters, Avatar, Titanic & James Cameron

Transcript

BPS 340: Oscar® Winner Russell Carpenter A.S.C. - Shooting Blockbusters, Avatar, Titanic & James Cameron · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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  You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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  podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast,
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  Episode number three forty. If you set your goals ridiculously high and fail,
• 0:21
  you fail above everyone else's successes. James Cameron broadcasting from a dark,
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  windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next draft.
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  It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while
• 0:36
  teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex
• 0:41
  Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I
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  am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof
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  Script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually
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  focuses on the kind of project you are and the goals of the project you
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  are, so we actually break it down by three categories micro budget, indie
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  film, market, and studio film. There's no reason to get coverage from
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  a reader that's used to reading temppole movies when your movie is gonna be done
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  for one hundred thousand dollars, and we wanted to focus on that at Bulletproof
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  Script Coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, w MEE,
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  NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist,
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  and many many more. So if you need your screenplay or TV script
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  covered by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Today's guest
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  is oscar winning and legendary cinematographer Russell Carpenter. Now, if you guys have
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  been under a bridge or under rock somewhere for the last thirty years, Russell
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  Carpenter is the cinematographer of not only some of the biggest movies of all time,
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  like Marvel's ant Man, Triplex, Charlie's Angel, The Negotiationator, True
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  Lies, Monster in Law, and some of my favorite eighties and nineties action
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  films, Hard Target, which was John Wu's first American movie, The Perfect
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  Weapon, and Death Warrant. But the one I'm Leaving Out is probably his
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  largest and biggest movie ever, actually the second highest grossing film ever, Titanic.
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  Russell, by far is one of the sweetest and kindest souls I've ever
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  had. The pleasure of talking to now. Russell is not only famous for
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  working on Titanic, but also working on just with the most amazing directors and
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  filmmakers over the course of his career, none being probably more prolific than the
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  legendary James Cameron. And Russell and I sit down and talk about his almost
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  his entire career, as well as working with James Cameron. How he got
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  the job on True Lies, which is an amazing story, and how he
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  got the job, and then from there, how he got to Titanic,
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  and what was it like working on the biggest movie of all time at the
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  time he was making it. I mean, it was a two hundred million
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  dollar movie when nothing was even close to a two hundred million dollar movie.
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  To have that kind of scope and to deal with what he was dealing with
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  on a daily basis, all the stories, all the rumors of the project
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  going down and it's gonna be a complete catastrophe, and it was just a
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  thing that you can't understand in today's world. What he went through on Titanic
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  and just the mere size of it all and how he was able to handle
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  that is a lesson for any cinematographer working not only on big movies obviously,
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  but even on smaller indie movies. And he just recently did an indie movie,
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  and we talked a little bit about his process with that, how he
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  works with directors, how he sets up his movies. I dug in really
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  deep, and he was so kind to give us almost ninety minutes to answer
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  all the questions I had for him. He was so so generous to do
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  so. So get ready for an epic, epic conversation with Russell Carpenter.
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  I like to welcome to the show Russell Carpenter, the legendary Russell Carpenter.
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  Thank you so much for being on the show. Russell. It is a
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  pleasure to be here. Thank you so so much. And I'm so glad
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  I ran into you in Senegear down in La right. Amazing, It's amazing
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  what happens when you're here in La Yeah. Yeah, Segere is the place
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  that you'll constantly rerunning into anybody you ever met. You're right, Absolutely everybody
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  in the business kind of walks in there and you're they're walking around like crazy.
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  No, So I wanted to ask you this first start off, at
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  the very beginning, when you were born no, I'm joking. When how
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  did you get into the film industry in the first place? Right? What
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  made you want to become a cinematographer? At first, it was just playing
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  something to do with my friends. I grew up in the Orange County area,
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  that the deepest, darkest, very Republican Orange County. This was about
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  two nice ages ago. So we were when we were playing, we were
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  we were working with super super eight millimeter cameras and it was just us dumb
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  things to do to keep ourselves occupied. With my friend's eye and in fact,
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  I uh uh. My sister Maureen, who was the sanest of the
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  four as children, uh for raising these ugly animals wouldn't say that, called
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  chuck their desert lizards to me. And they looked like road killed when they're
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  alive. God, and but there, because I grew up watching things like
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  the original King Kong over and over and over again because it was on the
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  local station so much, we decided we would make a monster movie. So
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  we tied. We took one of her lizards called a Chuck Waller, and
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  incidentally, my my best friend in the world with its named Chuck Waller.
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  That's hilarious and uh so we tied strings to the lizard, I mean the
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  thread to the lizard, put plastic I mean paper paper wings on the lizard,
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  and fluent endlessly back and forth in front of a landscape painting. That
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  was our That was our first movie called It came from the pet shop,
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  okay, and we worked, we worked our way up from there. So,
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  uh, I was afraid at the time. I eventually got out of
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  high school, dodge tracked by doing a v TV the audio visual television kind
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  of stuff. And I at that time, you know, I didn't have
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  the money to go to uh you know what, uh USC or U c
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  l A. And I was terrified of those places. They were right,
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  I mean, with God by me when I went to instead went to San
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  Diego State, the state college. San Diego State College at the time became
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  San Diego State University, and I had the supreme luck to get a job
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  at a at a public television station, very slow one, and that's where
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  I really actually got to work with a sixteen millimeter film and they made every
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  mistake in the world. But at least, you know, I learned these
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  mistakes by doing and it really gave me an opportunity to instead of just learn
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  about it, learn about film in the classroom, learned about it by just
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  going out there and doing it. And I stayed in. I did that
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  for a while until I was offering a job there. I quickly discovered that
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  I really I had a trouble just going every day the same job and sitting
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  in a little desk, and I couldn't do it, So, okay,
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  I quit. I went to Hawaii for a while. I lived on uh
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  tuna, fish and peanut butter best best served together. I found out and
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  slept on beaches and I was I was on a beach the north end of
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  Hawaii at Kalalau Valley, and one morning I woke up and there were these
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  helicopters was setting in from the sky and they were landing on the beach around
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  me. And these guys got out wearing T shirts shorts, and they had
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  these cases and they said Panavision on the side of it. You know,
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  this was out of the middle of nowhere. And it turned out that they
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  were there to film the the the gosh, what year was Hawaii? Is
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  this not Hawaii? O? No, it was not. It was the
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  Jessica Lang Kong And I stayed I watched this happen and it just kind of
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  it was literally a side of in the heavens, and maybe I should get
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  back and get back to California and do something. And I got a job
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  at another public television station, and after working there for a couple of years,
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  hooked up with a director, Tom Everheart, who we were both tired
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  of edifying people, and he wanted to make a low budget horror picture.
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  So he convinced this, I would guess call it an oppose burtisuer Czar.
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  We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to
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  the show to fund our little movie. If this fellow's life could be like
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  the most prominent zombie in the movie, obviously obviously and uh uh we we
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  had to have a plane crash or the remnants of a plane crash in the
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  in the movie. So we we almost burned down somebody's backyard reading that,
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  and uh and and then miraculously this little movie was uh was released, you
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  know, not like for like four days or something like sure. Sure,
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  that gave me false hope. And I I'm not far but moved north to
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  l A. And uh and that's where the I would call it the starvation
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  started. But I think my false hope was just that false hope. And
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  uh and I I was afraid. My problem was I was just afraid to
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  make phone calls just were just people. And I realized that there are lots
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  of other people had had. Well. At that time, we had sixteen
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  millimeters demo reels that we had to you know, shure to show to people
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  and we would just you know, put them in their hands and then we
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  would wait for two to three weeks it would take them to actually look at
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  the reel, right, and it was it was a good experience for me.
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  I uh, I just learned that not to be so afraid. I
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  was still more defied. Eventually, what happened was that friends of mine that
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  I've been working with the documentaries and working and they moved up to LA and
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  they were starting to do things and they would get me in on interviews with
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  things. And from there it was really uh uh, you know, well,
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  I would call it it was like a lightning fast fifteen years overnight success.
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  Yeah, overnight success. Fifteen years of you know, just waiting and
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  waiting and waiting for the for the very next thing that came in. But
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  in the meantime when I was real I was I at that time. Again,
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  it was like VHS tapes or video tapes that I would watch the work
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  of cinematographers that I really admired, and I watched these things backwards and quarrowers
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  backwards and quarwards and and learn learn from that. That was kind of how
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  I learned. Plus the little time I would have on the on the set,
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  and I was starting to do the dramatic form stoff if you call it
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  that, because it wasn't really dramatic. It was kind of shlock, right,
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  let's just call up like it was, sure, but it got more
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  on a set, and that was the best experience I could have. And
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  I just moved from zero budget to no budget to you know, slightly you
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  budget movies, and it was very much harder to get into the Union.
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  So I just it just doing this as I worked my way along. So
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  basically you were just grinding it for fifteen or twenty years until you started really
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  getting some momentum build up for yourself. Yeah, And I would say,
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  I mean to people who are who are in the same position, I just
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  said, if there was one thing besides learning as I went and really going
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  to as many seminars as I could and all that. For me, it
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  became just a matter of resistence. And in one way it was miserable but
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  I'm waiting. But in the other way, I did have anything else I
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  knew how to do, so I kind of had to stick with this,
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  you know, even when it just seemed like rimmerling grim and so so I
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  but eventually I got to a point where I said, I think I can
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  make a living at least doing the the independent films. And the other thing
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  that happened was that sometimes things would happen that were like sheer seemed like sheer
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  disaster, you know, and they actually led to something where to a break
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  like for instance, I did four episodes of The Wonder years before I was
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  fired. And okay, why were we fired? Well, a couple of
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  reasons. One I would walk, you know, with that I would walk
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  into somebody's office so they say, oh, Russell, you know I I
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  want to talk to you about one thing. You know, the dailies,
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  you know that the film it's it's just too bright. You've got to darken
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  it down. This we don't want this to play gets purely broad comedy.
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  And I, you know, I'm thinking, wow, that's not the way
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  they lit it. I don't know quite know what they're talking about. Then
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  and then literally like ten minutes later, somebody said, hey, Russell,
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  I will want to talk to you about something. They take me into the
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  room, the room and look, I looked at their TV sent and they
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  say this, this is this is the wonder year. It's supposed to be
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  brighter. You're lighting it too dark. And I mean, oh my god.
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  And I'm just saying, oh, I don't think I'm long for this
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  this job. And also at that time, and I didn't really understand it
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  that well. The people ran the show. It's called showrunners. They they
• 15:58
  really wanted the DP to try to tell the director what to do, because
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  the directors would come in and they were at that time TV I like TV
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  traffic cops. And the person who really ran the show was the showrunner.
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  And and I was coming from the space of the director's the boss. I
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  want whoever he or she is, I'm serving that person. And that and
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  that didn't really kind of for that show made me the wrong for a person
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  for the job. So I got I got fired from that. I didn't
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  know what to do. I was, you know, I was doing in
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  between. I was doing like these odd job things for They had this thing
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  called man Like. It was a temporary employment agency pulled manpower and that was
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  and and I would do jobs like one of the worst jobs I ever had.
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  But it wasn't lightening. Was was I worked. I lasted half a
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  day. I worked at this place. It was like this, Mom and
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  pop a vegetable liquid, vegetable vitamins for your plants. Okay. It sat
• 17:22
  with about twenty other people in a room and we went by hand. We
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  put labels on these Oh I'm like, oh gee. A guy who would
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  walk around and tell us yeah, no, no, that's down a little
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  to the right, you know, or speeded up or whatever. And it
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  was the most mindless thing. And I asked the guy next to me,
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  he said, how long have you been here? And he said five years?
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  Oh my god. And that was epiphany. And the epiphany was wow,
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  you know, there were probably millions of people in the world who have
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  job and and however miserable time. At least I have a job. At
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  least when I'm doing it, I really love it, you know, And
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  it just made me I don't know, it didn't really get me over anything
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  except at least having appreciation for the for the job, for the job.
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  And but what happened was I did like after that show I had was really
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  running out of money. I took it, so I was trying to get
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  out of doing I was doing a lot of I know, the year Z
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  level horror movies. That's something I really didn't want to do. It was
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  petitary too, and it was but I had the greatest time when the people
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  were great, the director was great. And one of the people who was
• 18:56
  in that was Eddie Furlong and he had just he had just not too long
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  ago done Terminator too, and yeah, he was very young and so and
• 19:10
  the people who were kind of his on sake Gertie and said, oh,
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  you know, there's something about you get along really well with Jim Cameron.
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  So before we get to Jim, because I have a bunch of questions about
• 19:22
  Titanic and your relationship with Jim, I want to take you back a little
• 19:26
  bit too, one of your first films, and I'm just dying to hear
• 19:30
  what experience was like and what lessons you learned from shooting Critters to the main
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  course, Uh, well, let's see what I heard, because I mean,
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  that's the thing that a lot of people only see the oscar. They
• 19:45
  only see not from you, but generally when they see someone successful in the
• 19:48
  business, they only see the end result of twenty thirty years of grind.
• 19:55
  Will be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the
• 20:02
  show. Uh yeah, and I I I That's what I have to say,
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  is that for all of that, I mean, they're either there are
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  a few cinematographers in the business who seem to you know, like rise out
• 20:18
  out of the depths of the ocean, I mean fourth own cinematographers, right,
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  uh, you know, and the Irish convinced you are or or Chievo
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  o Chieva, yeah, Chievo or Ville Mos or one of these guys films.
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  So you go, oh my god, they're fully formed, you know,
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  and they're they're like fourteen years old. They're shooting, you know,
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  these these masters, he says. And I'm and why am I still on
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  the bunny slopes of life? You know, just you know, briand in
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  and out. You know, that's scooting alone. I don't know how the
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  world works, but I do know that if you keep putting out the energy
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  eventually, I mean, thing things, things happen, and I I I
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  had a great time with with Critters too, and I and and you're just
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  trying to you know, even though even though you're looking at your heroes and
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  and at that time I was looking at people like Victoria Gerrarro when I and
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  I'm shooting Critters too, And yet something from from my hero that I can
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  apply to this an additor or trying to make the light a little more interesting.
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  And uh so, each each thing that you do is somehow putting a
• 21:56
  part of your personal camera together, because we are I'll talk about the gear
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  and stuff like that, but the real gear is the real camera, is
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  the camera inside the one that you're putting together, that that you'll be putting
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  together for your whole life. Is that And and anytime you get on the
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  set on anything, it's just just the most excellent opportunity to not only develop
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  the vision, but to learn how to develop the vision while things are falling
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  apart, because in a way, on film sets, they always are because
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  there's usually never enough time. Uh there's usually I wouldn't call it the daily
• 22:41
  emergency, but but a lot of things just don't happen the way you imagine
• 22:48
  they might, especially when you're starting out, because people that you're working with
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  are have usually have about the same experience level that when Wood as a young
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  cinematographer. So, uh, I would just take these these little things that
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  I could do, and maybe it certainly wasn't every shot, but I would
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  say, Okay, at the end of the day, I could say,
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  oh, but I did some terrific stuff with that shot or that shot and
• 23:21
  that shot and and uh so it was It was never a situation where oh,
• 23:30
  I felt that I'm a good good enough to wait for a script.
• 23:33
  That was not the idea. That idea never happened. It was I've got
• 23:37
  to eat, you know, I've got to pay the mortgage. What gave
• 23:42
  you to get experience? And I think that that was one of the best
• 23:47
  uh uh. A person that I know who worked in a lab he said,
• 23:52
  you just said do everything you can do, you know, just do
• 23:56
  every everything you can do. And that turned out the the way that that
• 24:03
  worked for me and people I have and I have talked to cinematographers. No,
• 24:07
  I will wait until I have a script that I think was worthy of
• 24:14
  being of shooting, and that worked that worked for them. That I the
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  I just I picked the path that I needed to pay out of necessity basically.
• 24:23
  Now, you so during that time, during the time, you were
• 24:26
  doing a lot of horror movies like Nightmare before Nabaron, Elm Street and the
• 24:30
  legendary puppet Master, which was one of my favorite. I loved. That
• 24:34
  must have been such fun shooting puppet Master. Well, I that I only
• 24:40
  did I did, uh like additional sure, additional stuff photography At that time.
• 24:47
  I would do anything that I could work it on Nightmare and Elm Street.
• 24:51
  That I mean, those those stuff were actually a lot. They were
• 24:55
  really a lot of foot and they were done in basically warehouse us out in
• 25:00
  the Santa Clarita Valley kind of they say, lay off the grid and they
• 25:06
  were at gosh, I figure up what years there was this question? Have
• 25:11
  been the eighty years? Oh that was eighty nine. Yeah, it was
• 25:15
  again it was much much harder. Uh. Well, let's just say the
• 25:22
  Union has really changed, uh a lot. And now now I see the
• 25:26
  Union as as as much we're realistic in terms of uh, their their educational
• 25:34
  programs and it's not like it's it's not kind of like life and death just
• 25:41
  to get into the union. But at that time, it was it was,
• 25:44
  it was tougher. So those of us we needed a place to paint,
• 25:49
  to do something. We were we were that was what we worked on,
• 25:55
  things like the new line, the company that did not cary. Now
• 25:59
  we were a relatively new uh company, and this this was a place that
• 26:04
  we could work. And then we also you know, and I also met
• 26:07
  other other cinematographers and filmmakers who I've known forever. My I uh by gaffer
• 26:17
  Leon Levin. We we met in the in the eighties and on we've been
• 26:21
  working part it up together ever since. So that's a long that's a long
• 26:26
  relationship now. And then you also during that time you started getting some more
• 26:30
  action work, and you actually worked on some of my favorite action movies of
• 26:34
  the late eighties and early nineties, like the classic Death Warrant by John clavondm
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  uh per perfect perfect weapon, our target. Yeah. When when I when
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  I look back on the tarp in your open here, uh, that's where
• 26:49
  we'll be right right up there. Because you never had uh more than three
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  word sentences. Can they started to say, you know, yeah, it
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  was action, it was action. Yeah, And the have it and about
• 27:08
  as mindless as they come. But you know again, I you're working.
• 27:15
  And that was the thing that one is one thing leading to another. The
• 27:19
  director of Death word uh oh. Just like on Darien's Ring, his father,
• 27:30
  his father was going to do with this film, a Japanese sci fi
• 27:33
  movie that had at the time that phenomenal budget. I think of fifty five
• 27:38
  million bucks I have. I'm looking at it right now. It's a monster
• 27:42
  budget for its day. It was Solar Crisis, right it was that called
• 27:45
  Solar Crisis, and and it turned out to be an unwatchable movie. But
• 27:51
  I did good work on that. I was really happy with what I did.
• 27:55
  And so I went back and I collected bits and pieces. I got
• 27:59
  this and that, and then I went in and I basically retimed the thing
• 28:03
  myself that uses my show reel. So here I have my whatever it is,
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  Okay, let's say fifty five million dollars show reel show. And I
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  didn't know what to do with it, but so I had that I had
• 28:18
  something to show. And as you go along, you just have to because
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  because as a cinematographer, you can be the potential cinematographer that you want to
• 28:27
  be, but you have to show people that you are, in fact,
• 28:33
  validly a real cinematographer. So that's why it's even if something that you do
• 28:41
  is the acting's bad or this or that stories, but somehow you can cobble
• 28:48
  it together skillfully, either yourself or whether you get the help of an editor,
• 28:53
  and you can use that to show people. But showing people something that
• 28:57
  you've done is that's absolutely pyramidical that you have that. So yeah, I
• 29:06
  would. Yeah. Now, as far as there was one movie in that
• 29:10
  time period in the early nineties, Hard Target, which was a big deal
• 29:14
  back in the day because it was John Wu's first American film. What was
• 29:19
  it like working with John and how did that that change? Because I know
• 29:22
  he was used to live I mean, I think Hard Boiled and The Killer
• 29:26
  they shot in like two hundred and fifty days or something like he just sat
• 29:30
  and just shot. You didn't have that on Hard Target? How was that
• 29:34
  that relationship to work with that on that movie that it was amazing? But
• 29:40
  when John is one of the nicest people you could ever meet, and you
• 29:47
  do We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back
• 29:56
  to the show. How is it that this guy is shooting the most violent
• 30:03
  movies ever. That are are our guests there. They're clever, they're very
• 30:11
  but you know there's a lot of blood lying around and and and dove doves,
• 30:18
  doves stuffs. Yeah, of course we even, Yeah, we had
• 30:22
  our obligatory jobs. Yes you did. And ye uh it was. I
• 30:30
  know. It's hard on John in the sense that in a in America,
• 30:38
  he said, and he said this to me after the film, he says,
• 30:42
  one thing I've learned is that in America, celebrity is everything. So
• 30:48
  he said, celebrities and at that time, you know, John claud he
• 30:52
  was huge, He was huge. And he said, and therefore they have
• 30:59
  they have a lot more or input, not only into how things are shot
• 31:03
  sometimes, but especially how things are cut afterwards. And and he said,
• 31:07
  he said that that was probably one of the reasons he eventually went back and
• 31:15
  did some of these really great films back in China was that he was not
• 31:19
  used to dealing with the political culture in Hollywood, and he was not used
• 31:29
  to I mean, really being the god on the set. Not that I'm
• 31:37
  not saying that in an egotistic saying it in the sense that it's the vision
• 31:45
  record vision, and he said, if he wanted to do a big action
• 31:52
  scene with you know, amazing action, he literally have hundreds of people who
• 31:59
  would want to do this crazy ass stop that would be very hard pull off
• 32:06
  in the United States given the regulations that they they have. But the experience
• 32:15
  of working with him was great, but also learning that the way that he
• 32:20
  shot was very different in terms of how action his states in the United States.
• 32:25
  In the United States, you'll take your action, and you'll take your
• 32:29
  moments, and you'll shoot in pieces at this piece and here, and then
• 32:32
  we moved this piece, and it doesn't necessarily have to be shot In order.
• 32:37
  John would arrange his shots action as though it was a kind of a
• 32:45
  putting all the springs into a fine Swiss watch. Interesting, every little piece
• 32:53
  of action would lead to another piece and flow in. And so instead of
• 33:01
  doing all these little pieces, says he would do, he would make it
• 33:07
  more of a ballet. And it makes sense as a whole. But in
• 33:12
  order to do that, and this is where it falls on the cinematographer was
• 33:17
  working with with John, is that you'll want to do it with seven or
• 33:22
  eight camera of course, and and how you get the one, how you
• 33:27
  light for that and and then one how you how it's almost impossible to keep
• 33:34
  the other camera out of the shot, but somehow you do it. And
• 33:37
  so we would do these takes, and we do them once or twice,
• 33:43
  and and and he would have it. It might it might take us them,
• 33:46
  you know, several hours to set these things up. Well, once
• 33:51
  it happened, you just go, oh my god, this shot took us
• 33:54
  to this camera and and he he then he knows that okay, he want
• 34:00
  me use two thirds of a second of this shot which is going to take
• 34:04
  us to the other angle. And that may last three seconds which will take
• 34:09
  us to the other angle. You know, it was really a name.
• 34:13
  So then basically instead of instead of doing seven or eight different setups, you
• 34:16
  would work really hard to get everything in one setup, but you basically have
• 34:22
  done your done the scene or done that that sequence. Yeah, and it's
• 34:25
  a it's also it's harder on it to stun people in the actor because you
• 34:31
  have to make it look like every pit connected mhm. And uh but uh
• 34:40
  it these things had an energy though when they will cut together. That was
• 34:46
  really right. Yeah, So I learned not only a lot about how to
• 34:52
  choose for multiple cameras, but I also learned something about you know, stage
• 34:57
  tune, editing, and and flow. I mean even Hard Target after you
• 35:00
  i mean you watch Hard Boil. Do you watch the Killer and then you
• 35:04
  watch Hard Target. You can tell he's handcuffed a bit, but but but
• 35:08
  you can see the wu come out. Yeah. Yeah, you know,
• 35:15
  yes, and some of the signature things that that you'd like to do.
• 35:17
  We certainly you'd certainly did those. But but but then you can also I
• 35:23
  mean, so here this is a John Yes, but it is. And
• 35:29
  then you go back and you look at Hard Boil and they have a lot
• 35:32
  I mean, there's a lot more going on than those bills. Yeah,
• 35:37
  I mean, they're they're amazing. You know, they're master they're masterpieces of
• 35:42
  action. I mean yeah, yeah, you go back and look at the
• 35:47
  bird cage scene, the opening of Hard Boiled. Oh my god, so
• 35:52
  yeah, just oh my god, where what playing that did this come from?
• 35:54
  I mean, it's they're they're really amazing films. Uh. Yeah.
• 36:00
  So that was a great experience. So, so you were starting to talk
• 36:05
  about how you and mister Cameron got together. You were saying that you met
• 36:08
  you worked with Eddie for long after Terminator two, and his people said,
• 36:12
  hey, you would work well with Jim. Yeah. At the time,
• 36:15
  he was Jim wanted to do a he wanted to do an independent film.
• 36:22
  Yes, a drama, Yeah, that drama that he wanted to do,
• 36:27
  A thriller or something like that. He wanted to do. I heard about
• 36:29
  that. It's at room This This is a famous film that's never been made
• 36:34
  about the life of a person who had like fifteen or six flower personalities.
• 36:39
  And it's been around Hollywood for I don't know, he on and somehow it's
• 36:45
  never gotten made. But he wanted to do that, and so Eddie's people
• 36:53
  and also some other people who knew me, I guess, suggested Jim that
• 37:00
  he should meet me. I got wet. There was a party at the
• 37:07
  end of at the end of that cemetery too, and I think he came
• 37:10
  to that. We talked a little while, and I, you know,
• 37:14
  I was I probably had the life force at the time, like a of
• 37:20
  a piece of wood or something personal, you know, just and then it
• 37:29
  was weird because because after that I was I was in Louisiana, New Orleans
• 37:34
  with John Woo because that film well, that film fell apart. But what
• 37:39
  I did do was I did show my fifty five million dollar sample. Real
• 37:45
  amazing, real amazing example real. Yeah, and he liked it, and
• 37:52
  but the film fell apart that well that's okay, So I didn't you know,
• 37:59
  I just go back to while doing the John Wuffield and it's really weird.
• 38:06
  I got this phone call from his producer while I was there, and
• 38:10
  he said, she said, when you get back to town, I want
• 38:15
  you to have lunch with Jim Cameron. He has this project he'd like to
• 38:20
  talk to you about. So and this is before the internet. So my
• 38:27
  crew and I start to get every copy of Variety that we can possibly get,
• 38:31
  and I'm in through of these varieties trying to see what he has because
• 38:36
  in my mind, I'm thinking he's got a little documentary or he's got something
• 38:40
  something little project that he needs to save it. This is and this is
• 38:45
  the converse. This is that's the phone call that at that point in Hollywood
• 38:49
  history and to this point as well, you get that calls like, hey,
• 38:52
  Jim Cameron wants to meet you about a project. I'm assuming that's a
• 38:53
  really big deal. Well it was a big deal, but I couldn't put
• 38:58
  my I couldn't put my own I couldn't put the Russell I knew up to
• 39:04
  that point in the same room of uh oh, and it's a it's a
• 39:09
  big feature. So I'm looking through these things and all I can see is,
• 39:14
  Oh, he's doing something with Arnold Forest called True Lives. And I
• 39:17
  go right past that, because of course that's not what we're talking about here.
• 39:23
  That couldn't be. But you couldn't even believe that you would be even
• 39:27
  up for that situation. Yeah, but when I got back, uh exactly.
• 39:32
  And then then when we got back and called called his producer up there,
• 39:37
  and lunch was sent up, and again it was surreal. We were
• 39:42
  near his house in u in Malibu and we're sitting down at Tony's taberno.
• 39:50
  Yeah, I guess that's what it was called. We'll be right back after
• 39:53
  a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show, and he
• 40:02
  starts talking about this film and it's it's this, Barno. You know,
• 40:07
  my head is kind of exploding it. I can't believe he's talking about this
• 40:13
  film, right, and this is this is how Jim hires somebody. So
• 40:17
  we're you know, so he's starting to talk about the film, and he's
• 40:22
  talking about this and it's and like halfway through the conversation he says, he
• 40:27
  starts using the word we, and it's says, and then when we get
• 40:30
  to Washington or these kinds of problems, you know, and then after that,
• 40:35
  you got to go there and we've got to be ready to do that.
• 40:37
  And I'm and I'm sitting there, you know, like a dog.
• 40:42
  You know. I can't I can't even understand. I'm looking at him,
• 40:45
  but I can't understand. Surreal, completely surreal. It was totally surreal.
• 40:52
  And so we have lunch and I leave and I call him my agent and
• 40:57
  I say, because by that time I had an agent. I I said,
• 41:00
  I think I was just hired to do this big picture. And she
• 41:04
  called me back two days later and she says, yeah, you knuckle ahead,
• 41:07
  Yes, you were hired to do the film. And uh. And
• 41:14
  then it was that, I guess, of course that opened the gym cameray.
• 41:19
  Uh. And it was very interesting because uh, the pre production went
• 41:27
  really really well, uh, you know, and I just felt like,
• 41:32
  yuh, of course, I felt like I had a lot to prove and
• 41:36
  airing stuff like that, and and then uh, and then we started filming,
• 41:40
  and uh, and that that that went really well too. It was
• 41:45
  going, oh my god, and uh, just never let this happen yourself,
• 41:50
  because this is what I did. I said, Well, I don't
• 41:52
  know what, because I had heard stories about other cinematographers that did work with
• 42:00
  him, and they weren't good stories. Well, I don't know. Maybe
• 42:07
  maybe I'm the person who cracked the coons covering so well. And so all
• 42:15
  those legendary Jim's Cameron stories, at least on true lies didn't happen. They
• 42:20
  didn't have that up until about the fourth weekend. And this story I tell
• 42:27
  a lot because it's it's it. It has something to do with persiscols,
• 42:31
  I guess, and also something to do with the fact that that sometimes you've
• 42:37
  got to develop his skin, a tough enough skin that you know that you
• 42:43
  realize that it's not about you when it because I went out on plenty of
• 42:45
  interviews, turned down plenty of times, and you know, you're you're kind
• 42:50
  of in the same boat that an actorate is well, and you're going to
• 42:52
  meet with a lot of reject it and you just cannot take that person.
• 42:57
  Just go back and just keep doing your thing and hoping the next thing covers
• 43:00
  along and it eventually it will maybe not as fast as he will want it,
• 43:06
  but there it is. But so we we were he had been watching
• 43:14
  everything on the on the at that time, on the camera video. Yeah.
• 43:20
  And so now we're in a we have a screening one night. It's
• 43:23
  the first time we're in a theater and the gym's screening room is there are
• 43:30
  about forty people in there. They're all harving heads and we're doing we're The
• 43:37
  film starts to roll and we're watching the scene and it's a scene where Arnold
• 43:42
  Forrzenegger has has just returned from his first mission that he was up in the
• 43:45
  snow, and he returns home and he goes over into the room where Jamie
• 43:52
  Lee Curtis is sleeping, goes over looks at himself in a mirror as he
• 43:59
  takes up is ready or you know, or something like that. And so
• 44:04
  that shot comes on and it's it's a little dark, and I think,
• 44:08
  oh, I'm going to have to have them to reprint on this printed up
• 44:12
  of people. And all of a sudden I look over at Jim, who's
• 44:15
  who's sitting beside me, and he's just sitting there shaking his head. I
• 44:21
  go, Jim, Jim, what's wrong? And now he says, loud
• 44:24
  enough, so you share everybody in the room, he says, he says,
• 44:30
  I have the highest paid actor in this or any parallel universe. Won't
• 44:37
  see his eyes. Kim, Jim, Well, I'll just print it up
• 44:42
  three points. I think everything is okay. So no, you print this
• 44:45
  scene up three points and you've ruined the mood of the scene. And that
• 44:50
  loud enough for everybody to look here. Oh so, I you know,
• 44:54
  from then on, I just want to die because because you wait a couple
• 45:00
  more minutes, and then he'd says something about, you know, as shot
• 45:04
  had come up but was maybe a little overexposed, and you see, where
• 45:08
  on earth do you learn to read the light theater? Oh woud you know?
• 45:15
  And and so I endured like three more comments like this, and literally,
• 45:22
  before you know, they turned on the lights, and you know,
• 45:25
  but before the light was all the way up, I think I was out
• 45:29
  of that room. I just ran out, you know, And I was
• 45:31
  out. I went out to the parking lot. I called my wife and
• 45:34
  said, well, you know, I had my run with Jim Cameron,
• 45:37
  and I'm sure, this was my last day at least were horrible blah blah
• 45:42
  blah. And I look up and there's the first assistant director and the and
• 45:47
  then one of the producers and they're just smiling at me and they're laughing at
• 45:53
  me, right, and I go, what what? And and they just
• 46:00
  say, you know, he does that to everyone. And I said no
• 46:04
  and no, they said, just call you know, they said, we
• 46:07
  gave the name of a couple of the other said, is it just called
• 46:10
  there when listen, you know, talk to them about this. I did.
• 46:15
  I talked to Michael Solomon had in the ABYSS and he said, well,
• 46:22
  did he use the line about, uh, you know, where on
• 46:24
  earth did you learn to And did he did he say his grandmother could shoot
• 46:30
  better than this or you know? And I said yeah and that I said,
• 46:39
  okay, you know, I really have to have this credit and I'm
• 46:45
  going to stick it out. And uh there were days that would go fly,
• 46:49
  and there were days that just felt like somebody hooked me up to two
• 46:52
  high voltage wires and I was being electrocuted to the entire day, you know,
• 46:58
  until they called wrap And uh that was that was true? Lies,
• 47:04
  That was true? Lies, And that that was If there was ever a
• 47:07
  trial by fire picture, that was that was it for sure. I mean
• 47:12
  you hear I mean, I mean I studied Jim's career fairly closely in the
• 47:15
  Abyss. I mean, one of the one of the craziest experiences of all
• 47:20
  time. And you hear all these stories about him and I and you know,
• 47:23
  I actually knew some people who worked on Avatar and how he's changed over
• 47:28
  time but yet still very very Jim. But so I wanted to ask you
• 47:32
  about working with work. He has changed. I've heard he's I heard and
• 47:38
  this is just again from secondhand. I've heard he softened a bit. He's
• 47:43
  not as like he would be back in the prior before Titanic stage, but
• 47:49
  he's still Jim. Yeah. The thing about well, wasn't the thing about
• 47:55
  Jim whenever he gets opportunity work with him or maybe somebody will like him who's
• 48:02
  come along, is that there's a singularity of vision and almost a lazier like
• 48:12
  concentration on the scene that he's doing. I mean, I've never seen anybody
• 48:19
  concentrate like him, and I've never seen anybody working harder than he does on
• 48:25
  the set. I mean, it's it's amazing. I mean, how can
• 48:29
  somebody be that and invested second after second, you know, because the the
• 48:34
  rest of us mortals seem to say, Okay, I just did that.
• 48:37
  Now I've got a chance to take a breath. Maybe I'll just go over
• 48:40
  to the craft service table and do this. That doesn't seem to be Jim
• 48:45
  to me. He is. I mean, there's in terms of pure devotion
• 48:52
  to what he's doing, I've never seen another person like him, you know,
• 48:57
  in my experience. And that's that's really suddle thing. And he and
• 49:04
  my sense about him is that every time he does a project, he goes
• 49:07
  out and says, there's something I don't know how to do. There's something
• 49:10
  I've never done, you know with true lines. That's well, I've never
• 49:15
  really shot, you know, a comedy, you know. So I'm going
• 49:19
  to do a comedy or you know, or now Here's Titanic and I'm going
• 49:27
  to make I need to make a film that not only succeeds as an attuo
• 49:30
  film, but I've got to make a film that totally succeeds as a love
• 49:35
  story. Or the action is not going to mean very much. And so
• 49:39
  he's he said, he says well, I don't know how to do this
• 49:44
  film net and finished. That's his attitude. We'll be right back after a
• 49:52
  word from our sponsor and now back to the show. And uh, and
• 50:04
  you know, I don't think he expects everybody to be perfect, but I
• 50:07
  think I know he expects everybody be doing the absolute best job they can,
• 50:13
  but they know how to do no. And and that's that's saying a lot.
• 50:17
  And I mean, I think for the storms that come up, when
• 50:22
  they do come up, if you learn not to take them personally and know
• 50:27
  this is this is, this is going to last another minute and then it's
• 50:30
  back to work, then then then you have a chance of not having a
• 50:37
  nervous right down and some people and some people just can't handle that. Some
• 50:40
  people take it too personally. And then this business, I think is one
• 50:43
  thing I've learned over the years is you can't take it personally. A lot
• 50:46
  of times you just can't. You got to move on. You can't take
• 50:51
  it personally. And then the other and especially as a director of photography,
• 50:54
  you need to so if there's angst almost set also need to develop the skills
• 51:01
  that you're not the main source with that a or you're doing something too.
• 51:09
  You know, Okay, we all know that things have to be done,
• 51:13
  they have to try to do them in a certain time. But I think
• 51:17
  I would really starting out, I would mistake my passion when I say,
• 51:25
  oh, this is just passion. But you know, in some ways I
• 51:30
  look back at it and say, oh, that wasn't passion. You were
• 51:32
  just being an asshole. There's that, yeah, And you can learn to
• 51:38
  have that passion and this took a long time to learn. You can learn
• 51:43
  to have that passion and also have a roaring good time because you're doing all
• 51:47
  of the best. You know, you're in the position having one of the
• 51:51
  best jobs at least any think that anything have Now when when working with a
• 51:55
  director that's so hands on, like what advice would you give? What best
• 52:01
  would you give you? A cinematographer who has a very hands on director,
• 52:05
  meaning that he's very involved with the visual look of the film and how is
• 52:08
  shooting it might even tell you a little bit of like I want this year
• 52:12
  because because a lot of times, you you know, with Jim and I
• 52:15
  talked to mister Cameron. He's obviously a very technical director and he really knows
• 52:21
  a lot about what you're doing and pretty much about what everybody else is doing
• 52:24
  on the set. And as he's probably often quoted, he'll he'll he'll tell
• 52:30
  people that that he knows that and that and that, and the whole miserable
• 52:35
  aspect of that is that he's probably right. When you're working with the genius,
• 52:39
  it's it's like here. And I went with Jim in that category.
• 52:45
  I do. I think he I think because you at one point you go,
• 52:51
  how can somebody who's so technical you do a movie that's also has so
• 52:59
  much imagination? And and the way he paints and how he how with his
• 53:05
  camera angles and the structure, the structure of his script, he sets up
• 53:10
  a totally immersive experience, you know. And that is that that they have
• 53:16
  that technical side and that that that artistic side, all firing, you know,
• 53:23
  on on all all cylinders. You know, they're they're all work all
• 53:29
  the Uh. You know that doesn't happen with Jim, you you know,
• 53:34
  And I I guess in my personality make up, I'm a pleaser, and
• 53:40
  I do I am a person who says, this is the director's vision.
• 53:44
  How can I help this director with his or her vision? What you want?
• 53:51
  Uh? And so you go in. So there's Jim on one end
• 53:55
  of the spectrum who is just happy to set up and and frame every every
• 54:00
  camera you know, uh huh and uh you know what, I'm like a
• 54:07
  Titanic. H It's interesting like as a cinematographer I had, I had the
• 54:16
  freedom to do things the way that I thought they should be done. But
• 54:22
  if I wasn't doing what you wanted, you would definitely let me le so
• 54:27
  right. You would say no, no, I want that's not it,
• 54:30
  I want this, or or I think the light year should be harder or
• 54:36
  something like that. So he literally would get that detailed, like no,
• 54:38
  this needs to be It's like almost like a Kubrick in that sense that has
• 54:43
  such a complete control of the vision that if he doesn't see you doing what
• 54:46
  he wants, he will push you or nudge you in the proper direction according
• 54:52
  to this vision. But I also tell directors that I know don't have those
• 55:00
  chops. You know, they're wonderful people who come from writing or some other
• 55:04
  they say. And especially now it's much much easier with digital. Really,
• 55:10
  look, if you see something like that that for some reason doesn't work for
• 55:15
  you, just just tell me and I and you know and unless it's something
• 55:22
  really we really don't agree with. But I am, I am. I
• 55:28
  just said, okay, well, yes, I can uh do this a
• 55:31
  little different and let's let's see if you're and then you know, in a
• 55:35
  second, I'll come back and say that that's right, that it's it's it's
• 55:40
  not so much technical, it's just something. It's it's story driven to most
• 55:45
  people. So as a cinematographer, you go okay on films. There are
• 55:49
  lots of things that have the same but I've always found every single film to
• 55:53
  be different, and a lot of that has to do with how you work
• 55:58
  with the with the director. I did a lovely film in India called Part
• 56:02
  the Very Low, and the director was fantastical. But we we never really
• 56:08
  after she told me what where she felt the heart of the story was or
• 56:13
  or or this particular scene. We didn't really talk about uh lighting we uh
• 56:22
  and she and in this situation I was I would suggest blocking. I would
• 56:28
  say, okay, given what I just saw, we could do it this
• 56:30
  way, this way and this way, and because we're on a budget and
• 56:32
  know if we do it, we'll do it this way. We tell the
• 56:35
  story and we just shaved a couple of shots off the scene because we're doing
• 56:43
  it more efficiently. So as a cinematographer, you can be a service in
• 56:47
  to any kind of director that you're you're working with. But again, if
• 56:53
  if it's a Jim Cameron, we know that they're going to have lots that
• 56:59
  have been point about things that other directors may not care a bit about.
• 57:05
  It's very very flexible boes that way. So let's talk a little bit about
• 57:09
  that little film Titanic. That is, you know, we've heard legendary stories
• 57:16
  about, you know, stories from the set. I knew a few actors
• 57:20
  on the on the set that have told me a lot of stories. I
• 57:22
  mean, at the time it was the biggest budget film in filmmaking history,
• 57:30
  in Hollywood history. I mean, you basically had every toy you ever wanted
• 57:34
  as a cinematographer on set. I'm imagining, can you can you tell me
• 57:37
  what it was like working on a film of that size and also that magnitude
• 57:43
  of me because everybody in the world was looking at that movie and looking how
• 57:47
  it would finish and how it would end uh or or a lot of the
• 57:53
  well, well, we'll say your younger listeners or cure for reading that tip.
• 58:01
  The film was such a phenomenon when it would be made, there was
• 58:07
  actually on the front of Variety, I think there there was a there was
• 58:12
  an outline box with its called Titanic Watch because every I thought this thing was
• 58:20
  going to be uh just just ghastly flop, because it was the most expensive
• 58:29
  movie at the time, and there there were occasionally there would be set backs
• 58:35
  because things were being tried that had never been tried before. And also it
• 58:42
  was it was what I call, uh a very special movie in that it
• 58:49
  was a hybrid movie in the sense that a lot of its heart and soul
• 58:53
  was where the David Lean epics, you know, Ryan Sun or Doctor shuvag
• 59:00
  Go or you know the UH, the those big films that it had had
• 59:07
  a beating heart like that. And yet it was it was it was using
• 59:14
  technically, it was using some very very old techniques and at the same time
• 59:22
  it had UH the out their foot was distinctly in the future in terms of
• 59:27
  being done with computer totally cutting edge at that time. You know, when
• 59:31
  the when then the film was in pre production, they hadn't really worked out
• 59:37
  a really viable way to make realistic ocean water we'll be right back after a
• 59:45
  word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. But there were
• 59:57
  two two things that I would read in the paper, uh you know,
• 1:00:01
  because now it's good. It wasn't just the trades, it was the la
• 1:00:04
  times. Well. One was that things were unsafe on the set, and
• 1:00:09
  that is not true. That there was a week We had sometimes uh safety
• 1:00:16
  meetings that would last up to an hour because we had an international crew,
• 1:00:22
  so you had to you had to do all the safety notes in English and
• 1:00:27
  then in Spanish because we were in Mexico, and then we had a lot
• 1:00:30
  of home gearyan stent people. Uh so so. But but safety was was
• 1:00:37
  really really at top of everybody agenda, and Jim, really, it is
• 1:00:45
  definitely not a well, you know, people are expendable kind of thing.
• 1:00:46
  So whatever somebody cracks of rip breaks leg, that wasn't it. I didn't.
• 1:00:52
  And the other thing was, well, they're just they're just down there
• 1:00:54
  every day figuring out how to throw gold bullion into the the water. This
• 1:01:00
  thing is so expensive, you know. And that wasn't the case either.
• 1:01:05
  You know, people would come down from the studios and try and figure out
• 1:01:10
  how to make things be less expensive. And they weren't coming up where eating
• 1:01:16
  solutions either, in fact in fact. But the thing was, the film
• 1:01:20
  was so big it was hard for anybody to get a get a handle on
• 1:01:23
  it. And when I came down the first time I went down there,
• 1:01:28
  it was before the rose Rido Beach. The studio hadn't really been built.
• 1:01:36
  It was a work in progress, and there was an ex compliment about it.
• 1:01:38
  It was it was like, well, this is how the gold Rush
• 1:01:43
  was being you know, buildings coming up like you know, crazy in days.
• 1:01:47
  I would go, I was actually working on another movie at the time
• 1:01:52
  this was happening, So I'd come down on the weekends and and it's like
• 1:01:57
  every weekend, gosh, there's another big building just came up, and there's
• 1:02:00
  a there's the tanks are being built. And it was really quite a sense
• 1:02:05
  of excitement about it. And then, uh, but what happened was,
• 1:02:10
  you know, on a on a regular film, you have a sense of
• 1:02:15
  where everything fits in and here are the pieces, and you can look at
• 1:02:21
  the film as a totality. This film is just so big, you just
• 1:02:27
  had to look at it. I did. It's weak, and it was
• 1:02:36
  you're constantly being at one fire after another well, this says it, this
• 1:02:38
  said, it isn't ready. You know, it's like and I'll just just
• 1:02:44
  for example, my John bud Lee was my gap around that that picture.
• 1:02:50
  He went out as a ship was being built and he was trying to figure
• 1:02:52
  out what how to table something as a Titanic, because basically the whole thing
• 1:02:59
  is just a huge piece of scaffolding. I mean a huge piece of scaffold
• 1:03:05
  on water. Uh yeah, well but yeah, but not much of the
• 1:03:10
  ship was ever in water. I mean that's part of the illusion that they
• 1:03:15
  the tank parts. Most of the tank was just three feet deep, just
• 1:03:20
  just deep enough so a lifeboat could be in the water and you'd have like
• 1:03:24
  three inches of clearance at the bottom of the water. You know. It's
• 1:03:30
  kind of like being at Disneyland that way. And I saw it was easy
• 1:03:34
  to move the lifeboats around and then much closer to the ship. Then the
• 1:03:40
  tank was dug much deeper, so people could jump off the side of the
• 1:03:45
  ship and not land in three feet of water. They had to, you
• 1:03:47
  know, have these twenty twenty feet deep there. And I mean it was
• 1:03:53
  this crazy logistic, you know, and there was this this castor going way
• 1:04:00
  too long no, no, no, please don't. We're fine, we're
• 1:04:02
  fine. How people figure this out, I mean how things were scheduled.
• 1:04:08
  The ship itself and a lot of the sets were basically engineered the same way.
• 1:04:15
  Uh uh cemeteries engineer letting a coffin into the hole. You have cables
• 1:04:24
  under the let's say you have roles under the coffin, and then the winches
• 1:04:28
  you unwine the winches and the cable or straps loosened and they start to take
• 1:04:35
  the weight of the coffin and it drops into the hole. That is the
• 1:04:40
  same thing. That was the same thing as how that huge ship was was
• 1:04:45
  dropped. And also we had sets that had to be dry in her one
• 1:04:53
  seem less say say take that giant dining room with those lights in there.
• 1:04:59
  Uh, we shot are dry scenes, and then a month or two later
• 1:05:02
  came back and shot the wet scenes and we were in that dry set was
• 1:05:09
  actually built inside a tank. So now filled up with water, and we
• 1:05:16
  have to change all of the lights out because they're going to go under water
• 1:05:23
  and they have to stay lit because that's what happened with the lights on the
• 1:05:26
  Titanic. So so now you're into all kinds of logistical things, so to
• 1:05:31
  make it look like the water is rising, which one end of the set
• 1:05:36
  would be lowered on straps until the water started to creep in, and then
• 1:05:44
  the rest of the set would be lowered to make it look like the water
• 1:05:46
  where rising at a pretty fast rate. And then then you end the take
• 1:05:51
  and you go back to one. But going back to one, can we
• 1:05:55
  set everything? Gree said everything. And there were times that the set would
• 1:05:59
  go into the water and there's chaos happening. You've got hundreds of people and
• 1:06:04
  and all that all the soul were all the table cloths. Uh, they
• 1:06:09
  start to float around and we're talking, you know, about one hundred tables
• 1:06:13
  or something like that. They're floating everywhere. So resetting is not an easy
• 1:06:16
  thing. And that was kind of the story of all the amazing takes at
• 1:06:23
  the end of the at the end of the movie where the ship's going down
• 1:06:26
  and hundreds of people are running up and download the ship. That was probably
• 1:06:34
  the last film We're real when you saw three hundred people running up and down
• 1:06:42
  that way, because four years later you'd have one not even that long.
• 1:06:47
  Along comes Peter Jackson with Lord of the Rings and he's got thousands of orks
• 1:06:57
  or whatever running around and they're all they're all computer driven and so so Titanic
• 1:07:02
  is really that that movie that made the push out of out of what we
• 1:07:09
  called more classic kind of filmmaking. So how how did you shoot? Like,
• 1:07:14
  how do you shoot a film of that size? Like just on a
• 1:07:17
  technical standpoint that the massive amount, how big was your camera department? That
• 1:07:24
  would depend on what we're shooting. We started off with the smaller fill u
• 1:07:29
  uh, smaller scenes uh, and we'd have one or two cameras and that
• 1:07:34
  was it. And we'd go along that way for a while. And then
• 1:07:39
  when we got to the really big stuff, that's well for the cinematographer before
• 1:07:45
  everybody, that's when the crazy thos happens. You've got Jim would say,
• 1:07:51
  hey, you know what, let's go outside tonight. I want to see
• 1:07:55
  the whole ship and uh, and we're going we weren't even scheduled to do
• 1:08:01
  this for like three more days, and we're not even sure that we can
• 1:08:04
  get everything up and running because just going back to how when you talk about
• 1:08:10
  the immensity, we wound up with something like forty miles of cable inside the
• 1:08:16
  ship and the ship when you go around when you look together side, all
• 1:08:20
  it is is it's scopoli scalfolding, and one set of it has what looks
• 1:08:27
  like a ship blind it and only the two top decks of the ship are
• 1:08:32
  built along the real ship. They and the smoke stacks and stuff like that.
• 1:08:40
  And so we're guarding. Back to my daffort when we're talking about the
• 1:08:44
  immensity of things, he says, he comes back one day and he said,
• 1:08:48
  well, we're going to start out with we need we need fifteen hundred
• 1:08:54
  lights. And I, yeah, that's what I What kind of lights are
• 1:09:00
  we talking about? Like lights? Lights? Like film lights? He said,
• 1:09:04
  well, I counted, we counted the portholes, and we've got seven
• 1:09:09
  hundred and fifty portholes. We need. We need what we call a visible
• 1:09:15
  light that the camera can see that looks like it should belong there. And
• 1:09:19
  then we want a ever. We should have at least a one k pointed
• 1:09:25
  out of every porthole. Okay, and so so we've done, we've done
• 1:09:30
  the portholes, and we're up to fifteen hundred lights. So he starts to
• 1:09:33
  put his list together and he goes to twentieth century Fox. We'll be right
• 1:09:45
  back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show.
• 1:09:55
  And John gets a little letter back, a little note that the it's very
• 1:10:00
  it's a very nice note, but the subtext is, you were insane.
• 1:10:05
  You don't know what you're doing. We're going to send down some people who
• 1:10:09
  are going to help you figure out how many lights you need. Okay,
• 1:10:13
  they do that, So they go up, so they go out with John.
• 1:10:17
  This is in pre production. They come back at the end of the
• 1:10:23
  day and these guys say, you don't have enough lights. You need more
• 1:10:28
  light. And they were right, and I have to handle twentieth century box.
• 1:10:35
  They found lights, They went to warehouses, they found you know,
• 1:10:39
  and they refurbished a bunch of of lights. Because at the end of the
• 1:10:45
  day you have just you have those fifteen hundred lights just for the portholes you
• 1:10:48
  have and a lot of them have to be sealed because we go underwater,
• 1:10:57
  right, and then you have all the lights in all the sets for the
• 1:11:01
  whole movie. And now the number is slipping my mind. But we had
• 1:11:09
  a phenomenal amount of light, not only decorative lights, but lights that we
• 1:11:15
  had to use ringing from everything from the huge lights that kind of light the
• 1:11:18
  ship at night to everything we needed to make the movie because because you can't
• 1:11:27
  you have to have your lights hidden, clustered, because you can't just say,
• 1:11:31
  oh, I need a five K and move it from the stern to
• 1:11:34
  the bow which is eight hundred feet away. You know that's not going to
• 1:11:38
  work. So it to John Buckley's credit. I mean, it was just
• 1:11:45
  an enormous undertaking to do this. And the number of lights was in the
• 1:11:51
  thousands of cable the cabling for this thing which looked like I call it like
• 1:11:58
  if you ever saw that movie Brazil by Terry Gillia. Sure it looked like
• 1:12:01
  a Terry Gilliam version of the company in the fifties. I mean it was
• 1:12:08
  a complete cluster whatever of cabling. And how it all stayed on I'll never
• 1:12:15
  know. And and and it was it was a constant battle because because lights,
• 1:12:27
  you know, they're lights, lights, and they go off, you
• 1:12:31
  know, right, God's fifteen hundred. My mind hurts. My brain is
• 1:12:34
  hurting thinking about trying to keep track of a shot because there was no high
• 1:12:39
  end visual I guess they could have done something visual effects, but like you
• 1:12:43
  want fifteen hundred l seven hundred something portals, you're in the middle of a
• 1:12:45
  shot, one of the lights goes out, like, oh my god.
• 1:12:48
  Yeah. And we learned our lesson in the first way because we I mean,
• 1:12:55
  we had a lot of people back there, you know, in the
• 1:12:59
  scaffold area, but because it was the first man and I think we were
• 1:13:01
  shooting a couple of days earlier, we like John would see some lights going
• 1:13:05
  out, or worse, Jim would see some lights out and it says,
• 1:13:09
  one of those lights doing that, and you've looked over and you had to
• 1:13:12
  notice. I mean, oh my god, yeah, and so John would
• 1:13:15
  say, get somebody down to so and so and so and so and this
• 1:13:18
  is god on It's truth. So somebody would run back there and eventually you
• 1:13:27
  see the lights go on. And then about three minutes later we'd hear,
• 1:13:32
  you know, this is so and so. I'm down here. I don't
• 1:13:38
  know where I am. I can't find my way out, you know,
• 1:13:41
  when somebody get me because I'm you know, I'm really starting to get nervous,
• 1:13:45
  you know, who eyes that. We would have to play a zone
• 1:13:51
  system and then I'm the same person. We put everything in quadrants, so
• 1:13:57
  like going up, you had level you you have level, you know ABCD,
• 1:14:03
  you know, all the way to whatever it was, and then and
• 1:14:08
  then horizontally you'd have a number so every every quadrant and we have the same
• 1:14:13
  person befooring as this says, worked the same fairly small quadrant night after way,
• 1:14:18
  because that is uh, that was the only way we could do this
• 1:14:24
  efficiently. But that h looking back now, it seems funny, but when
• 1:14:30
  you're waiting, when the director is waiting, it wasn't. I mean,
• 1:14:34
  it's it's it's honestly, it's a miracle that no one got hurt. Yeah,
• 1:14:39
  I think in construction some that stunt really Yeah, And we did have
• 1:14:47
  let's see, some somebody else got hit by a car walking along the road
• 1:14:51
  down there that that wasn't on the set. And then that we had one
• 1:14:57
  big night that had and rehearsed for weeks where they at the end of the
• 1:15:03
  at the end of the movie that the stern of the ship goes near near
• 1:15:09
  vertical. Yes, people start falling down and this was they were. What
• 1:15:15
  they were falling down into was a bunch of stunt pads covered in green so
• 1:15:21
  we could extend they make it look longer. And they hadn't all worked out,
• 1:15:29
  so the timing, so one person would fall and they were when I
• 1:15:32
  say fall, they were all on these things. Uh these descender rick descender
• 1:15:38
  fan rigs would slow the fall down if it still looked real that it would
• 1:15:42
  be you know, they weren't literally falling more under control. But they had
• 1:15:45
  to get out of the harness and then jump out of the pad, you
• 1:15:50
  know, not get out of the harness, but disconnect. But on the
• 1:15:57
  first two takes in the in the excitement of it all, like some people
• 1:16:03
  weren't getting it out of the way. So the next person down like somebody
• 1:16:06
  cracked or rebb the land and Jim just said, hey, we're not doing
• 1:16:12
  this anymore, so somebody's going to really get hurt. And uh uh So
• 1:16:16
  we came back later and the really significant falls they were done by uh CG
• 1:16:26
  CG. Yeah, base based on a real person doing a fall that then
• 1:16:30
  became a CG person. Yeah, he was cutting edge because there was nothing
• 1:16:34
  like that at that point. There was nothing like that at that point.
• 1:16:39
  And if you look back at it now, you know you could, Yeah,
• 1:16:43
  you can pick certain things apart and go, but that person is not
• 1:16:45
  quite rocky, right, that must be Yeah, my favorite, My favorite
• 1:16:49
  spoof or the biggest mistake I've saw in Titanic, if I could be so
• 1:16:54
  bold as it called something out, was when Jack's running down the hall while
• 1:16:58
  the water's rushing behind them him and grows and you see the face that they
• 1:17:01
  plant. They face replaced the stunt people, and you could that's the only
• 1:17:06
  really like blaring visual effect shot that was like, ah, yeah, that
• 1:17:12
  that that was the one where you know, he really tried to make that
• 1:17:15
  work, and I guess he pushed the technology too far. Yeah, and
• 1:17:23
  now place well is common lights, but at that time, now there's one
• 1:17:30
  there's one more question about Titanic I had, and this is a I've read
• 1:17:33
  an American Cinematographer magazine article years ago that I think you gave about the wide
• 1:17:40
  shot of the ship sinking into the water. That the bulbs, because they
• 1:17:45
  were hot, the bulbs on the actual deck, not like film movie movies
• 1:17:49
  lights, but actual lights practicals would hit the water and they would pop,
• 1:17:55
  so that after you would reset, you would have someone go in there and
• 1:17:58
  have to re unscrew and screw back in new light. Is that true or
• 1:18:00
  is that something is true here? The timing on all of the scenes where
• 1:18:06
  that started out basically looking dry and then sinking into the water. Timing was
• 1:18:14
  of the essence because uh, let's just take the dining room. Dining room.
• 1:18:21
  When we shot all the dry the drive drive seems like dinners and stuff
• 1:18:26
  like that, basically normal lights. But when that same set was going to
• 1:18:33
  sink into the water, all the bulbs had to be uh enclosed in a
• 1:18:41
  glass fitting. They had to be water tight because as soon as water hit
• 1:18:46
  any of these bulbs, uh uh, they would explode. Yeah, oh
• 1:18:53
  God. Also if they just stayed on, eventually the heat would build up
• 1:19:02
  inside that air tight by container and it would explode because of the heat.
• 1:19:09
  Jesus. So what we had to do was, I mean, and again,
• 1:19:13
  because we had so many people in these scenes, we would work and
• 1:19:18
  work and work and rehearse and rehearse and rehearse, get our whole camera set
• 1:19:23
  up. Then you would do and this is this is just common thing,
• 1:19:27
  especially with sinking things. You'd have to do a set search with divers showing
• 1:19:36
  set and make sure that it's nothing or and there was nobody down there who
• 1:19:43
  had been left behind, somebody who hadn't heard the we're gonna shoot you got
• 1:19:46
  it, so that would be time consuming too, so awesome, So you're
• 1:19:50
  looking at another twenty minutes just to do that. Will be right back after
• 1:19:58
  a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. Then the
• 1:20:09
  real action, once you call action, the real action has to happen within
• 1:20:16
  minute and a half because as soon as you roll cameras well, the lights
• 1:20:21
  come on, you roll cameras and then you know that about a minute and
• 1:20:26
  a half from now, these lights have to be underwater where they're going to
• 1:20:30
  flow. So that's the tiny issue of it all because there was this kind
• 1:20:36
  of this one and a half or two minute drill. That thing had to
• 1:20:41
  happen so that the lights would go into water. But inevitably, if you
• 1:20:48
  say let's just say let's just say a hundred lights, okay, you go
• 1:20:54
  for take two, seven of those lights have gone out. So we had
• 1:20:59
  a team would running grab those lights and then replace them nip lights they were
• 1:21:03
  working. That part didn't take us because we were prepared for that. That
• 1:21:09
  didn't take us long as that you know they might have. Now what h
• 1:21:15
  and I know you've given me so much of your time today, Russell,
• 1:21:17
  thank you so much. I have a few more questions, if your if
• 1:21:19
  your game? Sure, all right, what is the biggest lesson you learned
• 1:21:24
  from shooting Titanic, because that is it was unlike an experience that most cinematographers
• 1:21:30
  will ever have. Yes, In fact, right through we're thinking for a
• 1:21:35
  long we said, yeah, gee, Russ, when are we ever going
• 1:21:40
  to do the big movie and be careful what you wish for? Yeah?
• 1:21:45
  Yeah, that's right after titles at the end of the day, the last
• 1:21:51
  the last day called wrap and instead of a big wet yeah, people like
• 1:21:58
  zombies just wandered to the parking lot, got into their cars and rove away
• 1:22:02
  broke broken, broken souls, broken spirits. Yeah, yeah, that's the
• 1:22:09
  biggest lesson, was uh on a film like that that, Hey, you
• 1:22:18
  can't be overwhelmed by trying to gobble up the whole experience all at once,
• 1:22:26
  if then you'd never start. You just for me, it was Okay,
• 1:22:31
  I've got the scene. I'm going to do the best I can on this
• 1:22:34
  scene this day, and I know I've got a group of really good people
• 1:22:39
  who are working on the sets that we're going to shoot, you know,
• 1:22:42
  a week from an hour, two weeks from that. Just to really just
• 1:22:46
  hang in there and and do your very best that you can with what's in
• 1:22:55
  front of you. And that was the only way I got through it.
• 1:22:59
  Yeah, because if you try to eat right, if you try to eat
• 1:23:00
  the entire cake, you'll never get through. You have to take it bite
• 1:23:03
  by bite, slice by slice, day by day. Now, what's the
• 1:23:09
  biggest mistake you see young cinematographers make? Uh? Well, because because I've
• 1:23:18
  seen a lot of really great young cinematographers and I don't know what what what
• 1:23:24
  else is happening after I think, gosh, the the only thing I think
• 1:23:29
  is that there was there was a value in shooting film that you really had
• 1:23:33
  to know you're stop what what you can do with exposure? And uh,
• 1:23:42
  the only thing that I'm hearing from the lab is that that that sometimes people
• 1:23:48
  shoot thinking that they can fix everything, and when they when they get into
• 1:23:55
  the you know, the post production process, and they you know, and
• 1:24:01
  I can't say that I've seen because I've never seen that, but the labs
• 1:24:04
  have, and they'd say, don't these people know that their film could look
• 1:24:11
  so much better if they really paid attention to the lighting this actress for this
• 1:24:16
  actor and and try to do as much of the work on the day while
• 1:24:26
  while you're shooting. And then also, I know, also because you have
• 1:24:30
  a very good then if you have a very good sense of what can be
• 1:24:33
  done and should be done in post, you can say, you know what
• 1:24:36
  that wall over there is too right right now, but I know it's going
• 1:24:41
  to take me fifteen minutes to fix that now, and I can do it
• 1:24:45
  in thirty seconds in the post. You can just in that kind of knowledge
• 1:24:50
  that oil oil would be a big, big help. All right, very
• 1:24:58
  very good advice. Now, what would you on a business standpoint, the
• 1:25:02
  film business standpoint, what advice would you give a cinematographer wanting to break into
• 1:25:06
  the business. Uh, well, besides the thick skin and and knowing,
• 1:25:15
  hey, you've got to be in this long way, the first two things.
• 1:25:21
  I god, there's so many things. Just learning to work with people.
• 1:25:28
  That's such a because lots of people are really good at what they do
• 1:25:32
  and they're not good at the people end of it. I would, I
• 1:25:39
  would say the cinematographer, even though you just want to be an artist,
• 1:25:43
  the cinematographer has to be an artist, of course, but a scientist enough
• 1:25:48
  enough to know what the camera that he or she's working with can do what
• 1:25:54
  it's capable of. You also have to be a manager because as you go
• 1:25:58
  along you you're going to have to start to manage how how that your your
• 1:26:04
  we, your people, your weapons are, how their positioned, you know,
• 1:26:10
  in terms of who's who's doing what so you're getting the most efficient use
• 1:26:15
  of them. And then uh and then a politician a politician and I mean
• 1:26:23
  not not so mentioned the smarmy sense of every offering thinking, but it is
• 1:26:28
  a political business. When when I shoot a test with an actor or an
• 1:26:32
  actress, part of what I'm doing there I mean at the screen test is
• 1:26:36
  not only not only is learning what I need to know, but really imparting
• 1:26:41
  to that actor and actress that I will have their best interests at heart.
• 1:26:45
  I want to make politically, I want them to be comfortable to know that
• 1:26:53
  uh uh was set for them as way to be a safe place where they
• 1:26:58
  can live the best work. So there's that politic uh political in the sense
• 1:27:02
  that somebody did a bone hitt thing. We did a bone hand thing,
• 1:27:06
  and instead of yelling at them, no, people make mistakes, this person
• 1:27:12
  was trying to do their best job. Mile Agrieven with people. Is that
• 1:27:15
  if the biggest issue I have is that I know somebody is very competent and
• 1:27:20
  they're just not trying. That that's the big issue. Better. So So
• 1:27:29
  anyway, there are so many things you've got to be able to do and
• 1:27:31
  make make art well while catastrophe is happening around you. Well that's the other
• 1:27:38
  thing. Well one who in a nutshell? Those are the things that I
• 1:27:44
  do. Now, I'll ask you the last few questions. I ask all
• 1:27:47
  my guests, Can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your
• 1:27:51
  life or career? Oh? There, these are heavy questions. Yeah,
• 1:28:00
  I know they will know if I have an answer to right now. Look,
• 1:28:05
  yeah, I didn't know. I don't have an answer to. All
• 1:28:12
  right, well, then we'll move on to the next question. It's okay,
• 1:28:15
  what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, whether in
• 1:28:17
  life or in the film business? Uh? In life and the film business,
• 1:28:27
  because it seems like whatever whatever we choose to do in life, there
• 1:28:30
  are other lessons that were here. It seems to me we have to learn.
• 1:28:36
  And uh, what is who say as passionate as I am, or
• 1:28:43
  as fast as I want to go or whatever as good as I want.
• 1:28:45
  When I have picture to look, I have to have empathy for what anybody
• 1:28:51
  on the set is going through. I mean, I think developing empathy that
• 1:28:57
  that that somebody might be at work and they might be coming up a very
• 1:29:02
  very tumultuous home life, or or they're working. Uh and uh, you
• 1:29:12
  know, maybe they're they're they're working with a with some injury that's healing,
• 1:29:17
  or or just that I could say something. I don't think it happened much
• 1:29:24
  now, but I could certainly see it happening early on. You say something
• 1:29:28
  that's meant to be a joke, and yet it cuts to the quick with
• 1:29:32
  somebody, and and you just have to have just trying to again have the
• 1:29:38
  empathy of what it's like to be another person on the set or to be
• 1:29:45
  you know, happy having to work. Make me what what does that experience
• 1:29:49
  like? We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now
• 1:29:59
  back to the show. The excellent, excellent answer, And what are three
• 1:30:05
  of your favorite films of all time? Oh my god, and pick anything
• 1:30:11
  that comes to mind. Okay, yes, for the look of it,
• 1:30:14
  rent Uh searching for Bobby Fisher because I love the story. I love the
• 1:30:20
  way it would. Oh god, there's so many searching searching for Bobby Fisher.
• 1:30:30
  Such a that is like a dp's movie, isn't it? What he
• 1:30:32
  did? And the name I'm sorry, please forgive me the name. Oh
• 1:30:36
  yes, Conrad Hall. What he did with like he was shooting with mirrors
• 1:30:40
  and he was what he did in that movie for cinema on a cinematography standpoint
• 1:30:45
  is remarkable, right yeah, yeah, And just just the got it took
• 1:30:50
  some things when he did. But how beautiful that blub looks, and how
• 1:30:56
  was shot the camera was placed because a lot of that, I mean,
• 1:31:00
  you really are putting yourself in the place of this very young young I guess
• 1:31:05
  eleven years old. M hm. And and that was a great Oh god,
• 1:31:11
  there's there's so many more films and oh, you know Red Shoes,
• 1:31:15
  which a lot of people, yes, Red Shoes is just I to me,
• 1:31:19
  I thought that was a stunning a stunning film and a marvel of the
• 1:31:26
  technical process. And I probably got hunter more, probably right now right here.
• 1:31:31
  That that's what coppens to mind. And last question, what was it
• 1:31:36
  like winning the Oscar? I have been asked that, and I think it's
• 1:31:43
  a for for me it was really weird. But when I found out it's
• 1:31:47
  all about the dress, you know, but if my wife's dress, but
• 1:31:51
  she was going to wear. But uh, it was at that point I
• 1:31:59
  was not uh. I think I was so serious. I didn't really allow
• 1:32:04
  myself to feel the joy, the kind of kick in the pants that that
• 1:32:10
  must be. I uh uh the And what happened was I won the Oscar
• 1:32:18
  and then within uh eight hours later, I was in the hospital. I
• 1:32:25
  the very night I passed a kidneys and I didn't pass, but I had
• 1:32:29
  a kidney stone. And that's such agony. So you really couldn't you could
• 1:32:35
  have relish in the achievement. Yeah yeah, So everyone's like, uh yeah,
• 1:32:42
  but uh, it's really weird. Like right now, I feel like
• 1:32:45
  I'm enjoying uh uh what passes for a career and is much much more.
• 1:32:50
  I'm having much much more to find on the set, appreciating a lot more
• 1:32:55
  and and and I have I would say a little bit or maybe maybe a
• 1:33:01
  considerable about more of tranquility because early on I was just so nervous about,
• 1:33:11
  you know, how things are going or not going in there. Now I
• 1:33:15
  look back and I say, yeah, well, like right now, I'm
• 1:33:17
  going through a period where a little bit is seems to be calling, and
• 1:33:21
  now I'm going through a period where too many people have called and I or
• 1:33:28
  whatever. Yeah, you know right, I just say I can take what's
• 1:33:32
  kind of on the plate where the more ease than I than I did before.
• 1:33:40
  Russell, I want to thank you so so much for your time and
• 1:33:44
  amazing stories and amazing advice you're giving our listeners. Thank you again so much
• 1:33:48
  for being here. Okay, well, thank you very much. That interview
• 1:33:53
  does not disappoint Russell again is so amazing, and thank you Russell so much
• 1:33:58
  for taking the time out. I know. So you literally just got back
• 1:34:01
  from Bali and heading over to Vancouver, and you had two days to rest,
• 1:34:04
  and you took an hour and a half of that time to speak to
• 1:34:08
  me. So thank you again, and I hope you guys got a lot
• 1:34:10
  out of that interview. You know, it was just such a thrill for
• 1:34:14
  me to sit down and talk to Russell and to pick his brain about his
• 1:34:17
  process and his first hand experience of working on some of the biggest movies of
• 1:34:21
  all time, working with the biggest directors and filmmakers of our generation. So
• 1:34:28
  it was such a pleasure and humbling experience doing this, so I hope you
• 1:34:31
  guys got a lot out of it. I know I did. I got
• 1:34:34
  really jacked up and really inspired and kind of start shooting again. But there'll
• 1:34:40
  be more on that later. But anyway, guys, thanks again for listening.
• 1:34:44
  You want to see anything we talked about in the show, head over
• 1:34:46
  to our show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot TV. Forward slash three for Thank
• 1:34:50
  you so much for listening. Guys. As always, keep on writing no
• 1:34:54
  matter what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof
• 1:34:58
  Screenwriting podcast full of group screenwriting dot tv. Mm hmm