Latest / Breaking Precedent / Breaking the Capital Ceiling: Erin Harkless Moore on Who Gets Funded and Why
Transcript
- BP_Erin Harkless Moore_Basecut Leah: [00:00:00] Erin, welcome to Breaking Precedent. I'm excited to have you here. Erin: Thank you, Riley. It's so good to be here with you today. Leah: I know. I have been wanting to have this conversation for a [00:00:10] long time because there are so many interesting topics to go through. Before we dive into all of it, I wanna start with a little icebreaker, [00:00:20] and I just thought this was the most adorable, most wonderful thing when I was reading about you, and it's that your [00:00:30] grandmother used to carry around literally index cards- Yes Leah: and she'd bring them to church and out on walks, and on them, she'd [00:00:40] be... she would describe your accomplishments so she could- Yes ... tell people about what you're doing. So my question for you is, if your grandmother were still carrying [00:00:50] these index cards today, not the resume version, not the LinkedIn version, but the version she would pull out at church to tell someone who you are and why it matters, [00:01:00] what would that index card say, and what would you want her to say? Erin: Oh, wow. Well, uh, just to start, I'm, I'm smiling 'cause my... really all my grandparents, uh, I [00:01:10] was fortunate enough to have three out of my four grandparents all live well into their mid-90s. Uh, so which was such a blessing to get to have so much time with them, and they were all, uh, just [00:01:20] hugely influential in, in my life. Erin: But this, this, this one grandparent, my granny, uh, she was a real firecracker of a, of a lady. So- She Leah: must've Erin: been ... I'm sure she [00:01:30] would, she would've been busted out my note card, my brothers, my cousins, uh, all of us and, and, and sharing, uh, the good news of, of all that we were doing. What she would say, [00:01:40] I would come back to, to impact. Erin: Erin's having impact out, out in the world. Um, and Thinking about that in a couple of [00:01:50] different dimensions, uh, in the community, you know, how I show up with my family, uh, with my kids, uh, just the things that we're doing in our neighborhood, at the [00:02:00] school, you know, supporting, supporting them, just being a good mom, I think, I think she would, you know, be proud and, and wanna, wanna name that. Erin: Um, and then just the, you know, living a life [00:02:10] that is, you know, rooted and grounded in, in service, um, lifting others up. I mean, I, when I, I think you said not to answer it like the resume, but if I, if I think about my [00:02:20] job and what I do, it's trying to connect and bring capital to those that have been overlooked, people and markets that have been overlooked. Erin: Uh, so I think she would, she would call [00:02:30] out, uh, that, that impact, that service, that connectivity. Um, she'd probably tell me I should, you know, take a nap. She was always trying to get me to take a nap. Oh, [00:02:40] Leah: really? Erin: And rest. That's a nice granny. Uh, so I think she'd be like- Yeah ... "Make sure you're rested and healthy- Yeah Erin: and eating well," and all those things. Uh- I love it ... she would, she would wanna check on that and, and, and make sure that was [00:02:50] present, uh- ... in how I was showing up in the world. But I think- Yeah ... she would, she would boil it down to service and impact. Leah: I love it. I love it, so sweet. Well, I wanna go back, and [00:03:00] I wanna start where all the best stories do, which is before you were a Goldman analyst, before Harvard Business School, even before Pivotal, I wanna go [00:03:10] back to San Antonio. Leah: So I've heard you describe growing up with this really strong servi- service ethic, which you just talked a little bit about. Your dad was a doctor. Your [00:03:20] mom managed his practice and then taught at a community college. Can you take me back to yourself as a kid? And, you know, what, what did you [00:03:30] experience growing up, and what did you care about growing up as a kid in San Antonio? Erin: Yeah. You know, San Antonio, I've, I've not lived there. I've, I've, I'm now approaching that point where I've [00:03:40] lived more of my, or living more of my life outside of where I've, I've grown up. But San Antonio's my home. Uh, my roots are there, and I, I think it's one of the most [00:03:50] Interestingly, um, kind of American cities in its diversity and history. Erin: It's, it's majority, uh, you know, Hispanic in terms of the population, the culture, the food, [00:04:00] the music. Um, it has a large African American population, large German, Czech, uh, kind of population in that part of Texas and approaching the Hill Country. So you know, for me, I was [00:04:10] always exposed, you know, to so many different types of people. Erin: Hearing, you know, I'd go over to a friend's house, and her grandparents, my best friend, they, they spoke Spanish. So it was kinda like, [00:04:20] "Hey, you gotta maybe know a little Spanish." Sure. Leah: Did you learn some Spanish? Yeah. Erin: I learned a little Spanish. I love it. Uh, I was always a secret weapon, uh, in school when, uh, we'd do, like, some academic [00:04:30] competitions, 'cause I'd show up and they'd be like, "Why is she doing some of the Spanish stuff?" Erin: And they'd be like, "Oh, she s- actually speaks not bad Spanish." Although I've lost a lot of that, that learning, uh, 'cause I'm not, you know, kind of [00:04:40] in it and immersed and, and speaking every day, of course, anymore. But, but I think that the, the culture, that kind of pure San, Puro San Antonio, that pure San Antonio, the, the community, it's [00:04:50] such a community-minded place. Erin: And so I was just always a, a, as a kid, to your question, just, like, curious, like wanting to understand, you know, where people [00:05:00] were from, what they were, where they were going, what they were eating, what they were doing, and always asking questions. Uh, and I think that probably annoyed my parents a little bit.[00:05:10] Erin: Is it's like, "Would you just, you know, sit down with your book and stop, you know, asking so many questions?" But I'd read the book, or I'd, I'd thumb through, again, the encyclopedia, and I'd [00:05:20] just wanna understand more. But I think a lot of that was rooted in coming from a place where it was, you know, diverse, and there were so many different backgrounds and [00:05:30] cultures. Erin: Um, and you know, my mom would cook, we'd eat, you know, Tex-Mex once a week, uh, so it was just, like, in our house. And then we'd have our soul food, and we'd have our, you know, all the [00:05:40] things. But it was just, um, this kind of, uh, mixing of, of backgrounds and ideas that was just kind of foundational to how I grew up and how I was raised that I think fueled [00:05:50] that, that curiosity in me that's carried all throughout my life. Erin: But it, it's really, kinda looking back, I think, is core to kinda who, who I was and how I was built, [00:06:00] uh, as a kid. Yeah. Leah: It's amazing. I mean, what a, what a gift to be able to grow up in such a diverse place like that. Was there any moment that you can remember in your [00:06:10] childhood, something you maybe saw in your house, or a conversation at dinner, or something you watched your mom navigate, that looking back now was maybe already telling the story of [00:06:20] the work you'd end up doing? Erin: Oh, wow, that's a great question. I, I, I think some of it is just now as a, a, an adult, a [00:06:30] mom, a parent myself, I, I've always had such respect and admiration for, for my parents. But, um, now raising my own kids and seeing, you know, what [00:06:40] they were doing, and particularly my mom who, um, before, you know, I was born or my brother was born, she, she actually worked in a, a hospital. Erin: She managed the whole medical records department. She had a [00:06:50] long career herself, and then stepped back, um, focused on the family, stayed home with us, and then went back into working and helping to manage my dad's practice and then teaching. But [00:07:00] I think it was seeing, you know, uh, uh, I just always admired how much she was doing, but she made it all seem, as many women do, so [00:07:10] effortless. Leah: Yeah. Right. Right. Erin: And, um, you know, uh, but there were times too where she might have been a little, like you kind of, "Oh, she looks a little stressed." And, and I think- Leah: Now you Erin: know why ... Leah: I [00:07:20] was- Yeah. Erin: Yeah. Now I- Yeah ... now I know why. Yeah. Now I, now I get it. Yeah. Uh, and I think about that, you know, what my children- Mm Erin: are seeing and, and how I'm- Mm-hmm ... how I'm relating with them and to them in the world. But I, I think it was, it, it [00:07:30] was just, yeah, observing all the things that she was doing and, and the work she was leading at home and, and out in the world, you know, really struck, struck with me that... And my parents always [00:07:40] encouraged me, said, "You can do whatever you want." Erin: I mean, there was never, you know, "Dad's a doctor, you have to go into medicine. You have to follow in my footsteps." It, my parents always encouraged both me and my brother to [00:07:50] pursue our interests and what spoke to us, and I think that was a real gift too when I look back on it to kind of anything was possible. Erin: And maybe [00:08:00] one other example too, we, we, breakfast was our family, uh, meal. My dad grew up on a farm in rural Northeast Texas. Um, he still wakes [00:08:10] up very early for someone who's retired- With the roosters ... and decided Yeah, with the roosters. Yeah. Uh, I always know I can call him, but sometimes I'm like, "It's a little early to call, call." Erin: Um, and [00:08:20] my mom might be sleeping in, but I'm like, "Well, it's like, you know, 5:30 central time, 6:00." He's up. He's up. I'll- Leah: Wow. Wow ... Erin: I'll call him. So 'cause, you know- Yeah ... as we got older [00:08:30] too, my brother and I with sports and other activities after school, dinner was not necessarily a meal we had time to share as a family, but we always had breakfast. Erin: That was our [00:08:40] meal pretty much every day, uh, 'cause my dad loved breakfast and we, again, back to my mom- Doing so much. I mean, she would cook like a full breakfast most days. We'd have like [00:08:50] bacon and eggs and toast and all the things. And it was just those conversations about, you know, kind of the day and the world and, you know, now everything's online. Erin: The news that [00:09:00] we might... We'd have all the new- We'd have The New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the San Antonio Express News delivered to our house. And so just seeing my parents talk about the world, and they always talked about it with us, I think that, [00:09:10] you know, was a little bit of this looking back, too, like, "Aha," like there's more than just what's here. Erin: And, um, you can ask questions. You, you should, you should ask questions. You should [00:09:20] come prepared in this time together as a family and community to have an opinion and say what you think. Um, and I think that, [00:09:30] that, too, is, is foundational when I look to kind of what I'm doing today or where I am. Like, it's... Erin: It, it feels like those seeds were very much set in those family [00:09:40] moments, uh, growing up, for sure. Leah: It's incredible. Uh, the breakfast, the breakfast is an interesting perspective because I think we're all so conditioned to like [00:09:50] get the kids out the door and get them to school. Yep. Have you kept up a breakfast tradition with your family? Leah: Or like- I ... how does it work for you in your house Erin: now? Yeah, so well now, yeah, and [00:10:00] I, I, I, I used to not think actually I was a morning person growing up because everyone else in my family was like, you know, getting my dad's up with the chickens. My brother is b- b- uh, g- growing up always felt more... I was kinda like the last one to [00:10:10] come downstairs and like only wanted to eat cereal or something, and they're, you know, over there having waffles and bacon and, um, all this other food. Erin: [00:10:20] Um, so it's funny because I, I, I... The way my husband and I kinda divide our childcare, you know, I'm on point in the mornings actually. He's kind of on point in the evenings. [00:10:30] So I do, um... And my husband sometimes joins or, or not. You know, he's maybe getting off to work or going to, to exercise or other things. Erin: But, but we do find ourselves, I, [00:10:40] I have a little routine and the kids like, um... It typically falls on Monday, Wednesday, Fridays, but that's usually when I'll make oatmeal like on the stove. My, my son calls it- [00:10:50] Oh, fancy ... the oatmeal from the pot. Yes. Not the microwave. Yes. And that little- Yes ... extra time, um- I love it Erin: in the... You know, we're sitting and, and we're chatting and kinda- Yeah ... what's, [00:11:00] what's ahead, what's coming in the day, and I think my husband kinda has his routine in the evening, and- That's awesome ... you know, most evenings I'm... If I'm not traveling, I'm coming in, too, and, you know, trying to just get the kids to [00:11:10] share like what- Yeah Erin: not in how was your day, 'cause as you know, as a parent, too, you'll get fine, okay. So- Leah: Nothing. You get nothing. Erin: Nothing. Yeah. It's like, "What did you do?" Yeah. "Nothing." Right. Nothing. Um, [00:11:20] but like, what was the most interesting thing that happened today? Mm. What surprised you today? And- Leah: Mm-hmm ... Erin: you can kinda get- That's Leah: great Erin: get some, uh, get, get... And then, and then particularly my son, once he starts [00:11:30] talking- He could go on for hours, so then- I Leah: love that ... we end up having some good conversations. I love that. It's so great. So great. Yeah, my son who, my six-year-old, this [00:11:40] morning, it's a Friday morning. Yep. He had camp this morning. He was like- Yep Leah: "Can you make me weekend waffles?" I was like- Yeah ... "Weekend waffles are for the weekend, okay?" Weekend, yes. [00:11:50] Because they take time- They take time ... and Mommy does not have time this morning. Erin: No, we don't have time for that. Yes. I'm the same. We do usually waffles or pancakes on Saturdays. Yeah, yeah. It, it's, it, particularly when it's not [00:12:00] a sport in season, I've got a little bit more time- Right Erin: to, like, to marinate with, with, with the breakfast. But during the week- Yep ... it's, I'm like, "You're lucky you get this oatmeal- Leah: Right ... Erin: from the pot." Leah: Yes, from the pot. [00:12:10] From the stove. Exactly. So good. So I saw that you were always interested in math. Um- Yes ... and that's actually something that resonated with [00:12:20] me, because I was also a math major. Leah: But talk to me about how that love of math pointed you into the direction of Wall Street. You ended up at Princeton's Investment [00:12:30] Company. I mean, what a path to take there. So how did that all happen? Erin: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think for me, I, I've always, I've always thought of myself as someone who was, you know, both [00:12:40] using the left and the right, the right brain. Erin: I've always, I always also enjoyed kind of writing and, and I'm a big reader and, and, and using that side. But the math just, it was the [00:12:50] fact that there was always an answer, like you could ... And you kind of had to show your work, too. I think as someone who, you know, likes to, you know, win and be right, it kind of resonated [00:13:00] with me that, like I can logically think this through, I can show my work, I can get to the, get to the equation, get to the final, final answer Leah: in a way [00:13:10] that- It's Erin: very satisfying Erin: Very satisfying, exactly. Yes. Where sometimes, you know, I'd write a paper in English- Mm ... and I'm like, "I thought this was really good," and it would come back. I remember in college, one professor, we just ... [00:13:20] I actually went to see him once and I was just like, "What do I," a little bit, "What do I need to do to get a better grade?" Erin: He, he kind of was like, a little bit like, "I just don't like your writing." And I was like- Oh, gosh ... "Hm, [00:13:30] that, that feels-" Leah: That Erin: feels wrong Not satisfying That Leah: feels Erin: wrong. This seems wrong. I should get an A on this paper. Yes. I worked really hard on it. Leah: That's right. Erin: But, you know, in, in the math and the, in, in, in [00:13:40] stats and all those types of classes, you, you can sort of see the problem, work your way through it, and I thought that was just really interesting. Erin: Um, and I always did, you know, again, pretty, [00:13:50] pretty well at it. So when I got to college, I, again, I kind of both the left brain and the right brain. I, I majored in finance. Um, I also had a second major in English [00:14:00] literature, so I could kinda keep, keep, uh, keep that side motivated as well. But that led me to, um, and so, you know, Wall Street, and again, a [00:14:10] lot of when I look back on my career too, or like those early moments, some of it was frankly seeing other people that I respected and admired what they were [00:14:20] doing, and frankly kinda copying them or ask- again, asking them questions. Erin: Like, "You just came back and spent the summer in New York, and like what were you doing? And tell me more about [00:14:30] that. Oh, okay, maybe I should apply for, for that internship. Um, if someone who has kinda come to the, from the same school, you know, same academic background, [00:14:40] maybe I have a shot." Um, but I loved that, and again, kinda the Wall Street from what I, I knew, I didn't... Erin: Again, no one in my family had a [00:14:50] finance or kind of business, um, background or career, so it was looking at some peers and, and friends and talking to professors and, um, maybe [00:15:00] even like seeing a Wall Street movie or you know, thinking back something like that. But I thought like, "Wow, this is like feels also like a very practical kind of [00:15:10] application of, of some of the quantitative things I find interesting, and that there's a people component too." Erin: And that was one thing that drew me. I, my first summer on Wall [00:15:20] Street I was working at, um, what was then Merrill Lynch, um, on a trading desk, effectively. It was like a sales trading role. And I thought, "Wow, these people are ins- this is crazy." Like the [00:15:30] energy, it, it was in some ways almost kinda like intoxicating. Erin: Um, and the phones are flying, and you're, you know, just listening in and taking notes and doing all the things and doing some quick, it was a, [00:15:40] a derivatives, structured derivatives desk, um, also doing the m- like, okay, what's the call? What's the strike price? Doing all that work, and I just thought, "Wow, this is so, uh, cool." Erin: But it was about the relationships too. [00:15:50] And so I think for me, um, seeing like, wow, I can kind of bring The people side that I enjoy, uh, the [00:16:00] curiosity side with the math and the quantitative was like a dream kinda come true. So I said, "Well, this is what I should do with my career." Leah: Did you know what being an [00:16:10] allocator was at the time, or was that something that was new- Yeah Leah: that you had to learn? Erin: Uh, that was completely new. So when I meet young people now that are in [00:16:20] college or, you know, early in their career, like, "I wanna, I wanna be an al- I wanna be a limited partner. I wanna be an allocator," I'm like, "How do you even know what Leah: this is?" Like How do you know what that is? I know. Leah: It's amazing. They're so smart now. Erin: I had [00:16:30] no idea. Um- Yeah. Yeah ... and so again, some of it, you know, is, like, luck and, luck and circumstance and- Mm-hmm ... preparation, I think. Look, you, when you get in the door, you get in the room, you still have to deliver, [00:16:40] right? Mm-hmm. But when I was interviewing at Goldman Sachs in the Superday I had been in, um, I went to asset management 'cause like, you know, I enjoyed the sales and trading floor [00:16:50] experience in the summer, but I was like, "I don't know if this is, like, the exactly the, the job I want." Erin: So I'd been doing a lot of coffees and just chatting with folks, and I said, "Let me try out..." Uh, they had openings in asset management, so I [00:17:00] said, "Well, I'll try this." Um, you know, they funneled me there for the super day. And then I happened to, you know, interview with a bunch of groups, but who called me back was [00:17:10] effectively the kind of fund to funds alternatives platform at Goldman Sachs at the time. Erin: So this is, you know, 20-plus years ago now. Um, manager selection, doing manager [00:17:20] diligence and building fund portfolios on behalf of, um, institutional and private wealth clients. That was, that was the team that I interviewed with. And they gave- That's where I [00:17:30] got a job. And so I said, "Well, this is great. I'll take this job. Erin: It's at Goldman Sachs, it's in asset management." Uh, but I had no idea. Like, I didn't know what... You know, and it's funny, I [00:17:40] connected, reconnected recently with the, um, the partner that, um, well, this is actually now maybe more than, more, more than recent. It was many years ago. But w- a long time after we had worked [00:17:50] together. Erin: And he said, "Wow." They always... I was calling me Harclas, you know, my maiden name. "Harclas, you're still doing this." Like, "Good for you." Leah: Been doing it a long time. Erin: And I [00:18:00] was like- My gosh ... yeah, good for me I guess. But I, I didn't know what it was. And I, I, I took that job- So funny ... but I was working with some of the smartest- Wow Erin: uh, folks at, I think, again, one of the [00:18:10] best, uh, firms on Wall Street. Um, learning from the best and getting to learn the art of fund diligence from very, again, the first, first job I had, and [00:18:20] I've effectively been doing it ever since. Leah: It's, it's amazing. And I think, okay, so a couple things about that story that strike me. Leah: Yeah. So you've been very direct about this, that when you started at Goldman, [00:18:30] there were no female partners in your group. It's so, you know, I mean, full stop. Like, sit with that for a moment. Like, no female partners. So you join [00:18:40] this group and, you know, you look up, you look around, you're... And what do you think? Leah: Does that... Do you realize at the time, like, I'm the only woman in the room? Do [00:18:50] you not even realize it at all because you're kinda just so used to being in these environments, I wonder? Erin: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, a little bit of both. Like, some of it is you [00:19:00] just, you're, you, you know, you're a finance major, you're o- you're doing these internship programs. Erin: I, uh, you're... It's sort of the norm, right? So I, I, I think you both, you [00:19:10] don't notice it, but then you do notice it. And especially with distance, too. I'm like, wow. And, and again, there, there were, there were lots of women. There were some other senior women, you know, [00:19:20] VP-level, uh, amazing women that I work with. Erin: Uh, eventually, before I left, they, as an analyst, a, a, a woman partner, uh, laterally kinda came into what... And they had merged some [00:19:30] teams together, so there were, you know, over time, more, more senior women. But, but no, exactly, I mean, the MDs and the partners were, were, were men, who were great, and some of the best, um- [00:19:40] advocates and sponsors and mentors to me too. Erin: But I think it's, um, you know, it's, it, it is... And when I contrast with other [00:19:50] places that I've worked, you know, maybe like a Cambridge Associates, which when I was there was led by, the CEO was a woman, Sandy Urie, right? And, um, led the firm masterfully for many years. [00:20:00] Um, so it's the subtle things of where you, you don't necessarily see. Erin: I think to believe that something is possible, you need to sort of see it. And, [00:20:10] um, you know, when I was there, I mean, there were other women and other women of, other Black women and, and, you know, again, VP levels, some senior levels, but [00:20:20] there weren't that many. And so I'm sitting there thinking, "Well, could I, could this be my path if no one else ," you know, "looks like me?" Erin: And, and it, it's, it's, it's... [00:20:30] It can be hard. Um, but again, you still have, you can cultivate and build relationships. I think that's so important. I tell people all the time early in their career, [00:20:40] you know, you never know when you might find connectivity with, with someone and they take an interest in you, and it's mutual, right? Erin: I've had many men, and, and some of it coming [00:20:50] back to a love of sports or a shared connection over something, or I'm just, I'm just good at my job, and they like that, and they wanna elevate me and get me in the room. And so you, [00:21:00] you, you have to find those allies and advocates everywhere. But I do think at the same time it rep- the representation in who is in these rooms matters too. Erin: And, you know, again, I, [00:21:10] now I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm old, it's like it's better, but we still have work to do, right? There, the, I wanna see more women, more people of color, all different backgrounds, and, you know, o- [00:21:20] orientations and disci- I mean, we should have everyone have a seat at the table and be represented so that any, any young person can see themself and say, "Hey, I can do that too." Leah: Yeah. No, I love [00:21:30] that. And it, it so resonates. I mean, I had a similar experience when I was at IBM too, right? As an engineer in my group, and you could kinda see women across the [00:21:40] organization, but was there anyone really getting these, like, distinguished engineer titles or- Yes ... you know, like, highly technical? Leah: And so I think, you know, I'm curious, for me, I think that [00:21:50] was a time where I realized I wanted to kinda, like, break out and break free and, you know, be an entrepreneur. But for you sitting in those rooms, how [00:22:00] did that affect how you thought about your career trajectory, your path? I mean, I love this concept of making the invisible visible, and I [00:22:10] wonder, like, did that start at Goldman because of the experience you had there? Erin: Yeah. No, well, it's something you said too that really resonates too 'cause it's, it's back to, you know, there might be [00:22:20] one, but they weren't, they maybe weren't the investment, the deal lead, or they weren't the tech- you know, being seen as the technical person. So one thing I maybe, uh, [00:22:30] bad or good, we could debate, I had internalized was, um, I don't want there to ever be a question that I'm not proficient, [00:22:40] like that I'm, or excellent, right, technically and all those things. Erin: So I looked, again, as an analyst at, at Goldman and saw, well, a lot of the folks who, again, happened to many of them be men, had the [00:22:50] CFA. And no one told me to go do the CFA. Uh, but I said, "You know what? That seems to be..." And I, as I researched and learned more about, about the [00:23:00] designation and the credentialing, I said, "Hmm, you know, I'm gonna learn some stuff, but if I keep up my, my dues after I pass these tests, people will know I have gone through [00:23:10] this program and this process." Erin: And so some of it was, you know, I think things like that were front of my mind as I was thinking or looking ahead of like I wanna make sure, you [00:23:20] know, I'm, I'm unassailable when I walk into the room, you know, uh, that I belong. Um, and sadly, sometimes you have to do that by the credentials and where you went to school and, and all [00:23:30] of those things. Erin: Um, but I think beyond that too, I, I saw just the importance of You know, still being true to myself 'cause that's why I'm [00:23:40] there too. That's why they hired me, you know? And, and I have talents and skills that others don't have, and I, I don't wanna minimize that either, trying to be someone or something [00:23:50] that I'm, that I'm not. Erin: So I think that, that authenticity, um, you know, was always in my mind as well, um, in trying to, to [00:24:00] balance those things as I was looking, you know, ahead, um, and, and considering different jobs, whether or not to go to business school, all of those things. Um, [00:24:10] it was, you know, is this something that I... Do I, do I find this work interesting? Erin: Are the people interesting? Am I, am I, am I, and am I learning? You know, those were kinda some of the criteria that [00:24:20] were always top of mind as I was kinda thinking ahead to those next steps. Leah: Yeah. Well, I, I love this story [00:24:30] about you cold emailing your way into HBS's alumni own- networks, at endowments and family offices, just to figure out how you could get on the allocator side of [00:24:40] the table. Leah: And I read that somewhere along the way you wrote your own index card, and I'm wondering, what were you actually looking [00:24:50] for that you felt like this traditional path you wa- were on wasn't giving you, and, and what did you put on that card? What was on the index card? Erin: Yeah, the index card. Uh, well, one, back to... Erin: And [00:25:00] I tell, the... I look back on it now, and it's the boldness that you kinda have. I think that also being in school affords you to just- Leah: Mm-hmm ... Erin: email people. Leah: Yes. [00:25:10] I know. I always read emails from some student at some- Yeah ... college. You're kinda like- Yeah ... "Oh, I wanna help you." Yeah. Erin: I wanna help them. Yeah. And you know, if you're, it's your alma mater, you're like, "Well, of course I would help them." Erin: So [00:25:20] I was, I was pleasantly surprised by the, the, the number of people that res- responded. And even if they themselves were like, "Oh, I'm a little busy," or, you know, but they'd pass me off to someone [00:25:30] else, which then, you know, led to another interesting conversation that opened doors to opportunities and built relationships. Erin: So I just always encourage folks to, yeah, use those alumni [00:25:40] directories. They're... If people have opted in and are sharing their information, you know, they may not respond, but shoot your shot. Go ahead and email them. Yeah, Leah: go for it. Erin: But back to the index card, um, [00:25:50] what was on the, the card was I, I wrote very specifically I wanna change and push to change how capital is allocated, and who is in the room, [00:26:00] is in the table. Erin: And, and, you know, it, it... These were the points where, you know, I was at Cambridge Associates specifically and working on behalf of large family [00:26:10] offices and private foundations and, um, you- You know, it's an amazing platform where we're sourcing the best-in-class managers around the globe in every asset class. Erin: And I [00:26:20] said, "Look, there's still a disconnect in who's, you know, who's in these portfolios, the, the, the, the profile of fund manager, the backgrounds. Are they a fund, or emerging [00:26:30] funds, funds ones, fund twos, fund threes?" Um, and so for me, that was, like, the marriage of the, the work I was doing and the impact that I wanted to see [00:26:40] in the world. Erin: And, and I felt like, and part of this index card exercise was my husband pushing me a little bit 'cause I was kinda, like, complaining, like, "Oh, what is going on with my career, and what am I [00:26:50] doing?" And, you know, I think Leah: a- And did you feel like it was, like, the same patterns, the same people? Like, it just wore on you over time? Erin: I think a little bit, a little bit of that. Mm-hmm. And some of it was, you know, I, I, [00:27:00] I, I don't remember specifically, but I, I, I, I, I think I had just been at a, maybe an HBS alumni event or a reunion. Or there was something where I was seeing other people, and it was a little bit [00:27:10] like, well, they're on this... Erin: Someone's on this path, or so-and-so's changed jobs, and they now have this bigger job with a bigger title. But, you know, what am I doing? Where, where am I going? [00:27:20] Um, and, and I think to your question too, like, being okay with, um- It may not, my path may not look just like [00:27:30] someone else's path. Like, everyone's on their own journey, and that's okay. Erin: But where my husband was pushing me a little bit was, you know, if you, you have to be able ... If you don't write it down, and [00:27:40] if it's not brief and crisp and clear, how are you gonna know what to pursue and what to go after? And I sat with that and I thought about it. I said, "You know, that makes a ton of sense." Erin: And I think for him [00:27:50] too, it's, it was a little bit, as I reflect on it and we were talking about it, it's a little bit of like what is the life you want to lead? 'Cause he framed it as, you know, I was like, "Are you trying to [00:28:00] get rid of me?" But he's saying, "If you got hit by a bus tomorrow, and I'm, you know, putting to- a memorial together, what would I write about you? Erin: Uh, and I know what I'd write about you as a mom and a wife and our [00:28:10] family, but what is this piece of Erin professionally?" And I think that, that, that was what I sat with, and I said, "You know, what is the thing [00:28:20] when someone talks about the work I've done, wherever it is, at whatever company or, you know, volunteer, whatever it is I'm doing, what is the thing, you know, [00:28:30] that they'll speak to?" Erin: And that was, that was writing that down, and then it's actually very, uh, freeing and clar- you bring so much clarity too [00:28:40] when you can s- someone presents an opportunity, you say, "Well, it's not, that's not what's the, that's not what the card- That's not on my card ... is telling me." Yeah. "That's not on the card." Erin: Love that. "So you know what? That's great. Actually, let me help. [00:28:50] I can introduce you to someone else. How can I be helpful? But that's not the job for me. That's not the, the board I need to s- whatever it might be." Um, and so that [00:29:00] was really, um, powerful to have that, have that just at my, at my fingertips, um, and then just kind of imprinted then on my mind and on my [00:29:10] heart. Leah: Yeah, I love that. It, uh, the power of an index card. I need to, like, go find my- Yeah ... stack right now right down the line. Yes, I know. Just carry it around. It's so good. Just have it Erin: in your- Yes ... have it in your [00:29:20] wallet or in your- So good ... purse and, you know- ... you can go back to it when you, when you're feeling off-track. Leah: Yeah. So you, you built this extraordinary foundation [00:29:30] between Goldman and Cambridge Associates and Harvard and, you know, eight years learning to allocate capital at the highest, highest levels. And then Pivotal called. [00:29:40] And wow, what, what did you think? You said you literally pinched yourself. You thought it was too good to be true. Leah: I wanna hear, like, what led to [00:29:50] that phone call and, and what were you feeling at the time when you got it? Erin: But ex- well, exactly as you said, that it was a pinch me moment, and it was also a little bit like, am I being... Is this a joke? Or is, like- ... [00:30:00] someone trying to play an elaborate prank on me? Someone punking me. Leah: Yeah. Erin: Is someone punking me or pranking me? Because, again, it went back to the index card, and, like, I wanna influence how capital is [00:30:10] allocated, who's in the room, advancing, you know, different voices and perspectives. And I hear about this opportunity, uh, to join an organization where [00:30:20] Melinda French Gates is basically doing that, and hiring someone to build and continue to build an investment, uh, program and portfolio and function [00:30:30] to do that, um, in the private markets. Erin: And so I was like, "Wow, this is, this is too good to be true." And at the time, kind of the funny anecdote is, so this was, like, [00:30:40] late 2019, early 2020. Um, our website, we, the website... I mean, our website is amazing now. It has so much detail on our, our [00:30:50] work and our, our strategy and highlights some partners. At the time, the website was basically like a landing page. Erin: It was like, Pivotal, you know, further, faster, [00:31:00] empowering women. Meet our founder, Melinda Gates. I'm like, "Is this some..." Like, I thought, did someone just build, like, a website just to get- Just to- ... prank me? It's not- Leah: Send me there- 'Cause you don't- And [00:31:10] then, yeah. Erin: Just to send me there, 'cause immediately you- Oh my gosh Erin: you approach, you, you know, headhunter, recruiter calls or someone- Yeah ... puts you in contact with someone, and you're like, "Let me start doing my homework. Let me prep to learn more." Yeah. And I'm like, how can [00:31:20] I find out anything about this organization? It doesn't, doesn't seem real. But it, but it, it is real, it was real. Erin: Um, and how I heard about it, so I think back to the, the [00:31:30] intentionality that the index card or, like, clarity was giving me. I was very happy at Cambridge, and I was... It also shifted some of the work I was doing, working more with mission-aligned [00:31:40] families and, again, philanthropies and building portfolios with, with... Erin: that were aligning the values and the investment kinda thesis and process together. So I was spending more time on that, which led [00:31:50] me to be doing more thought leadership. I was writing, wrote some papers. I was out, you know, and about, speaking at conferences, and had connected, um, someone that I knew pretty well in the kinda [00:32:00] impact ecosystem, was working, uh, advising Pivotal on a variety of things, including this search. Erin: And so she told me, she said, "I think I have this really [00:32:10] interesting opportunity for, for you." But I, I believe part of why she thought of me, because I was sharing with her, she saw what I was doing. And I was talking about that work, and I [00:32:20] was telling her, "Look, I, I'm trying to, you know, spend more time with clients doing this at Cambridge." Erin: So I think that, that probably got her thinking, "Huh, I know Erin. I know her background. She, she'd [00:32:30] be great for this role, but wow, she really wants to lean in." And be at a mission-driven organization. So, um, so I think that was, that was part of it too. But that's how I found my [00:32:40] way to Pivotal now, um, over six years ago. Leah: It's incredible. It's incred- I mean, the power, too, of sharing what you wrote- Yes ... on an index card with people [00:32:50] and, and getting out there and sharing your values. I mean, at the time when you joined, the idea of the care economy as a serious investment thesis was not widely [00:33:00] accepted. And, you know, to join from Cambridge over to Pivotal, you're being asked to stake your reputation and your career on a bet that a lot of people in finance probably would've [00:33:10] called a little bit soft, right? Leah: So was there any sort of internal conflict or rubric that you used to kind of assess the [00:33:20] opportunity? Or from the beginning, were you just like, "Whatever. I'm all in," like, "I get it"? Erin: Yeah. No, it's I'm laughing because I did. And this is the... It was interesting [00:33:30] to just, like, ground this when I was making these decisions in the point in time we were in a, uh, as a country and a world. Erin: So this was in COVID. I was actually set to fly out to Seattle [00:33:40] for my final, or maybe like a kinda super day-type interview and meet a bunch of folks, go to dinner, and then I was gonna take a red-eye back home, uh, early March 2020. [00:33:50] And if you recall, uh, King County and Seattle were one of the early epicenters of COVID. Erin: So, um, our [00:34:00] HR team at the time, they were calling and they said, "Hey, you know, I think we'll just pivot your interview to this, uh, this thing called Teams. We- It's this new Microsoft feature [00:34:10] Teams. And then when this COVID stuff blows over, 'cause we feel a little nervous flying someone out to basically where they're, you know, the B-roll ambulance you've seen on the [00:34:20] nightly news is, like, down the street from our office." Erin: I said, "Okay." But in my mind, I'm thinking, I've been seeing clients. I've been to Brazil for a business trip, and so much stuff, like, in February. I'm like, "Well, I'll come to [00:34:30] Seattle. What is this COVID? Nobody knows what this is." But we did the interviews, um, again, those interviews virtually, and then the world shut down. Erin: So I was sort of sitting here [00:34:40] both to your question of like, okay, what is this place? I have, um, y- what is... You know, the mission resonates, but as you were saying, it's like, [00:34:50] okay, I've, I've been at a large, very established organization. It's kind of my whole career, right? Like, like you said, check, check, check. Erin: Goldman Sachs, Cambridge, [00:35:00] you know, Princeton Endowment, all very blue-chip places. And, and again, not that- Pivotal or Melinda's reputation wasn't blue chip either, but it was, it was new. It was still- Leah: It was new ... you know, an early- Erin: [00:35:10] Yes, and it was Leah: a new focus, and it was opening up- New Erin: focus ... capital Leah: and yeah. Erin: Exactly. Exactly. And so this question of... Because again, that was an early investment that we made, uh, as you [00:35:20] mentioned, in the care economy, uh, partnering with Magnify Ventures as they were raising and launching their first fund and, and focused on, on the care economy and tech for modern families. So, [00:35:30] so I was weighing all of those things, that kind of uncertainty, also not having met anyone in person. Erin: And as I've shared earlier, you know, I, I'm a people [00:35:40] person, right? I'm like, I didn't get to... I said to my... I was saying to my husband, "I didn't get to go look them in the, look anyone in the eye." And he kinda rolled his eyes at me. He's like, "What would you have actually Leah: learned from, from doing [00:35:50] that?" It's like about the vibes, though. Leah: Like you can- It's something about Erin: the- ... Leah: feel the energy. Yeah. Erin: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And so I, I hadn't been able to do that, and there was this uncertainty, like you said, of, [00:36:00] you know, is this portfolio real? The market, the things that they're, they're testing and pursuing to advance women's power, are they [00:36:10] investable? Erin: I don't, I don't know. Um, but I came back to, I think is, to your question of, like, what was the rubric, it was a little bit of the [00:36:20] fundamental question is, you know, am I gonna learn something new? And I think if that-- when I boiled it down to that, and it was still the [00:36:30] core, like, you know, getting to build, build the team, build the process, um, that was exciting too and, you know, in a way that I wasn't doing to the [00:36:40] same degree at, in my, my prior role at, at Cambridge. Erin: So weighing those things, it, it, that, that gave me a little bit more comfort to maybe take the risk [00:36:50] on some of the market and the dynamics that were, you know, felt a, a little, um, more uncertain. Leah: Yeah. I had this [00:37:00] rule at TaskRabbit, and the rule was, what gets measured gets managed. And the care economy, $648 billion economy, [00:37:10] larger than the pharmaceutical industry, no one had ever measured it before. Leah: I just find that so extraordinary [00:37:20] because, you know, as an investment thesis, it is a massive, massive industry. And then once you do the work to actually make that transparent, bring it [00:37:30] visible, make the invisible visible, um, it becomes a very clear category. Can you talk about the work that went into that [00:37:40] and, you know, the strategy that you all are executing there? Erin: Sure. Uh, you said it perfectly. If you-- Erin: It's easy to dismiss something or to look [00:37:50] past it if you haven't quantified, if you haven't quantified, if you haven't measured, if you don't have a, a way to value it. And I think for us, you know, Erin: when you roll [00:38:00] back to the very early days of Pivotal, the fundamental question is, well, what's holding back women's progress? Erin: Social progress probably, but particularly progress for women and holding back women's power, [00:38:10] um, and opportunities for girls and women and families. And so we were looking at these big segments and that, that caregiving, again, Erin: the most essential [00:38:20] work that we all do, right? Everybody's a caregiver at some point in their lives. Erin: But most of that, disproportionate amount of that, falls to women, and it leads [00:38:30] to folks stepping out of the workforce, not leaning into entrepreneurship because they don't know if they can take-- who's gonna care for their kids or their, or their, their loved [00:38:40] one, or they don't have paid leave to take time off. Erin: And so it's a huge cost to society and economic cost to growth, right, as well. [00:38:50] So I think that led to, again, to your point of like, well, we have to size this, so then it, it becomes undeniable what the opportunity is. Um, but, you know, how we are [00:39:00] continuing to approach and think about that space, it's, it's, it's still a huge market that I think a lot of investors are, are, are more aware of because [00:39:10] of some of this research. Erin: Um, more firms With a thesis around it, like Magnify Ventures that I mentioned, um, and, and several others [00:39:20] as well. Um, but I think we need... And we're doing this now kind of across our fund strategy, looking, you know, at venture, but also later stage, [00:39:30] you know, invest- Like, how, how do we make sure that the full kinda capital stack is being brought into this investment opportunity? Erin: Uh, because I think, [00:39:40] you know, a company, some of that is the storytelling or the, you know, what's the company that's public, or what's the, what's the business that I think of when I think of, you know, how you created a [00:39:50] category basically with TaskRabbit, right? It's like that didn't exist before, and now people, like, understand that and they think about that. Erin: And so then that, that shows, okay, now I can build maybe [00:40:00] the next TaskRabbit or the next Care.com or whatever it might be. So I think we just need more, you know, more exemplars to kind of work their way through. And so we're just [00:40:10] thinking about how as we, both as fund investors and direct investors, support that ecosystem kind of across, you know, companies as they grow in scale. Leah: [00:40:20] Yeah. Yeah. You said before, we're not lowering the bar, we're just reframing the bar. And can you say more about that? Because I think what you're really saying is that the bar [00:40:30] itself was built by people who didn't see this market. And so what does reframing the bar actually look like in practice? Erin: Yeah. [00:40:40] I think it c- Reframing the bar comes back to, for me at least, like, what is, what is the risk or the question that you're trying to answer? Erin: And perhaps instead [00:40:50] of sticking with the same metrics or patterns th- that have been used, it's like, okay, well, if I, if I'm trying to, [00:41:00] if I'm worried about incentives being aligned, this is a classic example, you know, allocators will look to, and you've probably, you've experienced this yourself as a fund manager. Erin: Well, how much, what is [00:41:10] the GP committing to the fund? How much skin do they have in the game? So if I'm checking a box or I've got that as my bar of, you know, whatever percent, 1%, 2%, whatever, [00:41:20] that might be excluding a fund manager who hasn't created or doesn't come from wealth to put that much capital into their fund. Erin: So when [00:41:30] I think about, okay, well, what is the risk? It's a- it's around incentives, it's alignment. What's another way that I can ask that question? Like, how can I get at- [00:41:40] Are, are they, again, sitting on the same side of the table as me wanting to pursue, again, a good outcome? And so that's, that's when I think about the reframing, and that's [00:41:50] one, just one very specific example and kind of fun, fun diligence. Erin: But I think it's true, you know, as we look at direct investment opportunities, the whole thing, it's like it's not just, well, [00:42:00] that's doesn't check this box 'cause I need a market of this size. It's like, well, were you even asking, are we thinking about the right market? Back to the care economy, right? Like, let's, let's come at this another way and [00:42:10] really interrogate ourselves and maybe some of the biases that are just embedded in a process or that we're each bringing to the table to try to get to the [00:42:20] result that we wanna see. Erin: Because you're gonna have the same... If you're just doing the same things, how can you ever expect to have a different outcome? That's why I say if I'm, if I'm, if I'm only looking for a [00:42:30] certain profile person Who wears a Patagonia vest. I mean, I, I have a Patagonia vest myself, but you know- So do I ... that f- that founder archetype. Erin: But yes, Leah: yes, yes. Erin: That I'm gonna miss out on other opportunities- Yeah ... 'cause I'm [00:42:40] so focused on just this one thing. Leah: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You're a working mother navigating this exact system yourself. So I'm curious, [00:42:50] have you ever had a moment where you've looked at your own life and thought, "I am the problem I'm trying to solve"? Leah: Because I certainly have. And I'm the [00:43:00] person this market is failing. I mean, what does it feel like to live inside the thesis you're actually investing in as well? Erin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, [00:43:10] it's incredibly, uh, I think useful and powerful, and I, I think about our, you know, our team here at Pivotal. We have folks from, you know, different [00:43:20] backgrounds. Erin: It's, you know, it's, it's, uh, we, we do have a, a man on our team. I was gonna say it's not, it's not just women. And, you know, his perspective is great, too, but it's, uh, it's all of us kind of [00:43:30] bringing those perspectives to the table is really important. But it's, it's like you said, I, I think it's a, um, it's understanding the problem. Erin: The best founders or some of the best [00:43:40] founders are building when they understand the problem. Um, and I think about myself in, in, you know, my seat leading this team is, is, yes, [00:43:50] living and understanding some of these problems, but also recognizing that we wanna invest both in our fund strategy and kinda the companies that uh, looking through that they're investing in, but particularly in our direct [00:44:00] strategy around, you know, care and care economy and women's health in solutions that benefit everyone. Erin: So I'm... You know, I have... We're both very privileged folks. Like, we have a lot of good things [00:44:10] happening for us, um, resources that others don't have. So I wanna make sure, you know, we're also investing in solutions that are, the ni- you know, 99% can use, too. So I think it's, like, [00:44:20] both and. It's like I can appreciate the problem as a mom, as a woman. Erin: You know, we're doing a lot in women's health, too, and I was just chatting with someone the other day, and we was talking [00:44:30] about this company. And so I'm looking. I'm like, "Oh, let me... Well, I guess let me go order those supplements Leah: that they're..." Erin: Yeah. That they're telling me I need to have. For, like, perimenopausal- Yeah Erin: yeah, menopausal women. I'm like, "Well, great. Absolutely. I can try [00:44:40] it." Leah: Yes. I'm on that train, too. Absolutely. I'm like, "Let me, let me be Erin: a user." I Leah: just interviewed Joanna, Midi Health. Yeah. I'm like, " Erin: Sign me up." Exactly. Midi- Yes. Sign me up. And [00:44:50] it's great- Yeah ... 'cause I could... You know, when we're looking at a company- Mm-hmm Erin: uh, and we've done, Summer Health is one of our portfolio companies. Uh, one of my colleagues whose kids are a little bit, little bit younger, I mean, she, she [00:45:00] signed up. She was using the product 'cause she was like, "Let's see how it works." Um, and you know, my kids are kinda aged out a little bit of that, like, I need a on-demand pediatrician. Erin: But it was great 'cause she was able [00:45:10] to give some real time user feedback. So, so I think, yeah, seeing and living the problem, that's, that's just so foundational to all the work we're [00:45:20] trying to do at Pivotal, is just having more perspectives be in these rooms, so that when the founder shows up, someone says, someone's just not thinking, "Oh, I don't get that," or, "That's not a problem that [00:45:30] anybody cares about." Erin: It's like, "No, I care about that 'cause I'm a, I have- I'm a caregiver. I care about that 'cause I'm, I'm, we're gonna, half of the world, we're gonna go through menopause." Yes. [00:45:40] Leah: Seriously. Going through it Erin: right now. And so that's- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Leah: Yeah. It's so funny. Well- Yeah ... I think Pivotal's model, as I see it, is really- [00:45:50] Yep Leah: its own precedent break, because- Mm-hmm ... most capital will sit in one lane. You're either in- Yeah ... philanthropy or in advocacy or you're investing, and you are doing [00:46:00] all three simultaneously and on purpose. So I'm curious, with that strategy, I mean, it is, you know, a pretty radical bet on [00:46:10] how change can happen, and I'm curious if there was a point of conviction or insight that made you follow that kinda three-pronged [00:46:20] approach to, um, inspire a change. Erin: Yeah. Uh, I, I think it, it really came back to the, the, the premise or [00:46:30] the, the mission objective, the strategic outcomes we're driving towards. You know, we want, to put it simply, women to be in positions to control resources, you know, make [00:46:40] decisions in their homes, in their communities that impact them and their families. Erin: And philanthropy alone is not gonna get us to [00:46:50] that point. Advocacy and policy work alone is not gonna get us to that point, and investing is not gonna get us to that point either. So I think it was recognized when we, when that intention was [00:47:00] set, it was clear that, you know, uh, you need to show up to the fight with all the tools or to build a house with all the tools. Erin: It's like, I'm not gonna build my hou- a house with just a hammer. I need I need a bunch of [00:47:10] different tools to... You know, you could build some sort of house, but maybe not a house you actually wanna live in, right? Um, and so you, you need all those levers, all of those tools. And I think [00:47:20] Melinda and, you know, the vision she had and having, you know, been a philanthropist for many, many years, also a businesswoman for many, many years, [00:47:30] recognizing that, yeah, philanthropy can, can address market failures and can go really, really far and do a lot of amazing things, like move the needle in global health and education and some big, [00:47:40] big problems, but we need innovation as well. Erin: You need capital and innovation in these sectors and, and behind these themes. [00:47:50] And you need government at all levels, s- local, state, and federal, to be setting the conditions to enable that behavior from the private [00:48:00] sector and from the nonprofit sector and philanthropy. So, so I think it was just that, like set- having the mission and the goal and then realizing that, you know, maybe, you know, we haven't [00:48:10] gotten where we want to be because maybe we're only using just one tool. Erin: Um, and so setting up an organization, a group of organizations that on from day one, [00:48:20] and the premise is to, is to use all the tools and to collaborate effectively, right? Uh, it's all in service of our impact. It's not just, you know, how much money is Erin gonna [00:48:30] deploy or how many grants are we getting out the door? Erin: It's like, okay What is the objective that we're working towards? And if I can be helpful to my program colleagues in [00:48:40] advancing the work around women's health or women in the workplace, I'm gonna show up and do that. If they can be helpful in making an introduction or getting one of their partners to speak to one of our [00:48:50] founders to unlock a door, we're gonna do that, too. Erin: We're gonna use our, our voice, our principal's voice, Melinda's voice, to uplift these partners in this work as well. That's, that's hugely important [00:49:00] to driving change. And so it's, it's all of those things together, um, are really important to move the needle. Yeah. Leah: I mean, it's incredibly powerful, and I think it speaks to the point that, [00:49:10] you know, there is no silver bullet here. Leah: You can't just focus on one thing and expect to achieve the overarching mission. So I love that you're taking this holistic [00:49:20] approach and collaborating and working together across different, you know, asset classes and ways of thinking. It's great. So I have to ask this next one directly, because all of us are sitting in [00:49:30] this room right now, and DEI and the political climate, you know, has taken a hard shift. Leah: And, you know, you've talked about leaning [00:49:40] into the economic case rather than the moral case, and I'm just curious, you know, what does this shift feel like from the place you're sitting right now? [00:49:50] And is there anything that the economic case can reveal that actually, you know, makes it stronger, not just defensible? Erin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, [00:50:00] it's, it is a change, for sure. I'd be lying if I sat here and said, you know, the same number of folks are showing up at conferences and events and the dollars [00:50:10] flowing to next gen diverse managers. You know, the, the, the, it's, it's not, and it's, it's real, right? We're, we're, we're seeing it. Erin: We're, we're living [00:50:20] with it. We're ... I'm seeing it with our, our fund managers and our partners, you know, as they come back to market. It's harder to ra- It's always hard. It's always hard. You know this. You've raised capital as a, as a GP and as a founder. It's hard to raise [00:50:30] capital any time. But the moment that we're in now, you know, it's, it's, it's a flight to, you know, kind of [00:50:40] what has worked, right? Erin: And can I get as much, you know, OpenAI in my portfolio as, as I can as an allocator? And so [00:50:50] that's just made it really, really hard, uh, for, for, uh, for that, you know, again, that, that kind of pushback, those headwinds that you, that you speak [00:51:00] to. And I see it, yeah, in our portfolio, in the conversations that I'm having, the rooms that, that, that I show up, that we show up as Pivotal. Erin: And, you know, through that, though, [00:51:10] we, we remain true to our mission, and we believe that, you know, to advance social progress, you wanna... and women's power, we want to, you know, have a diverse [00:51:20] set of voices of all stripes, right, all, all backgrounds, right? But, like, represented these markets that we've been talking about that have been overlooked, women's health, care economy, we need to fund them 'cause that benefits everyone.[00:51:30] Erin: And this gets to the economic piece of it, right? I- As we talked about earlier, we're both data-driven people, and so when I look at some of these stats and data [00:51:40] and, you know, it's, you know, if you, if we got to gender parity in global entrepreneurship, it would add $5 trillion to the economy. Like, [00:51:50] let's, let's just pa- Like, these are big, big numbers and big opportunities that we're, again, we're leaving on the table. Erin: And for me as an investor, [00:52:00] I, I always feel like, you know, again, some of the best investors are always those that are maybe a little more contrarian, right? Or, like, the, the, the crowd is going here, the herd's going here, the puck's going there, and you're, you're skating this direction. [00:52:10] So to me, it's like these are huge gaps and huge opportunities with potential to make a lot of money, and again, to make, I think, people's [00:52:20] lives better, like the moral side too. Erin: But again, focus on the economic opportunity. Why would I not at least take that meeting or [00:52:30] spend a little bit of time to learn a bit more about that opportunity? And so that's where I, I think, you know, just continuing to... And, and we're pushing ourselves to, you [00:52:40] know, share more where we can about what's working in our portfolio, and what isn't too, so that someone doesn't say, "Well, I'm gonna just do what Pivotal does," and we're like, "Well, actually, don't do all this 'cause this didn't work."[00:52:50] Leah: Yes. We want it to work, right, Erin: for everyone. Leah: We Erin: want it to work. Yeah. Yeah. But if we're not transparent in talking about, and again, being data-driven, you know- Yeah ... here are the [00:53:00] metrics, here's what's working, here are the gaps, here are the opportunities, then, you know, I think it's, it's, it's harder to expect, particularly in the environment that we're in, people- Yeah Erin: to get on board. [00:53:10] Leah: Do you think there's a version of this headwind where it actually becomes clarifying because it kind of filters out people who maybe were only here for the optics of it, [00:53:20] and then it leaves the investors who are here because of the returns case with more opportunity to generate returns? Leah: I don't know. Erin: No, I, I think that's [00:53:30] fair. I mean, a little bit of the- Mm ... you know, the, maybe some of the tourist, uh, Yes ... behavior and mentality- Leah: Right ... Erin: goes away. And where- Mm-hmm ... you have conviction, um, th- you have [00:53:40] even greater ability, and, and I think that's something we've done. And m- you know, Melinda has set, you know, she's, she's Erin: When, when, when I'm updating her, when our team's updating her on, on where the portfolio is, is [00:53:50] sh- You know, she's data-driven, too, and she wants to know how the performance is or what we're learning, but she still sees the opportunity and says, "You know what? Keep going." And I think, [00:54:00] yeah, that's, that creates more space for us to get out there and do more, right, uh, and, and demonstrate the opportunity. Erin: So, I mean, I love to be, you know- [00:54:10] Capped out from an investment 'cause so many other people are seeing the opportunity. But until that happens, we're gonna keep showing up, we're gonna keep deploying capital, um, and again, just hope that the [00:54:20] success will draw others in over time. Leah: So you just mentioned Melinda, and I'm curious. Leah: You know, you're working with one of the most influential women in the entire world when it [00:54:30] comes to how capital and social progress is connected. Is there anything that she's taught you, something she does, a habit, a way of asking [00:54:40] questions, something you've quietly learned or adopted or, you know, s- maybe something you've ob- observed her to do that has [00:54:50] influenced how you lead as well? Erin: Yeah. Um, you know, Melinda's an amazing human and also an amazing mom. I think that's, uh, just as, as moms here, too, and, [00:55:00] and women, she, she's... Her, her children are, are awesome young, um, adults as well. But I think, and this comes back to kind of why I mentioned that, is I think people in [00:55:10] relationships. I've seen the care, um, that she brings to every connection and every conversation, the preparation that she brings. Erin: You know, when she's going to a meeting, [00:55:20] um, when she's spending time with a partner, you know, if we're, we're, we're meeting with her beforehand, she's- she's- she's read the notes. She has questions. She's gonna put her hard hat on or [00:55:30] put her gloves on and roll up the sleeve and, like, be, be there and be present. Erin: I can think of another example. We were at an, uh, annual meeting for one of our fund managers, and she actually spoke, and they said, "Well, it's fine if she [00:55:40] wants to just kinda come in and speak. I know she's busy." And I said, "No, she's gonna stay. She's gonna..." She was there the whole day. Wow. Wow. And she sat in the front row- That's amazing Erin: with her notebook- My God ... and was, like, taking notes. And then [00:55:50] after she's asking me, "Erin, what about... " I was like, "Oh, man. I got some more work to do." Yeah. But it's, it's the preparation and it's the people and the care and the follow-up and the notes [00:56:00] she sends. And, and I think that's true of, um, you know, how she engages the trust she has in us, uh, the, you know, senior leaders at Pivotal to [00:56:10] execute this important work. Erin: Um, you know, her life's, with her philanthropy and her investing, you know, she has great trust in, in us, and that's a real privilege to have, [00:56:20] too. So, so those are things I've, I've taken up of, of, you know, I think maybe we're always, uh, things I maybe kinda knew instinctually, but, like, seeing [00:56:30] her and the power that she has in doing that, it was like, "Okay, wow, if Melinda's sitting here taking notes- I should get my notebook out too. Erin: Yes, Leah: and be ready to [00:56:40] answer her questions. And- Erin: Yeah ... get ready to answer her questions I love it 'cause she- I love it ... she's a good student. It's awesome. She does her homework and is well-prepared, and is just so thoughtful in how she, she connects with people. [00:56:50] Leah: Yeah. It's amazing. So we talked about how the care economy was invisible, partly because no one had measured it. Leah: So just the act, the act of naming it, of sizing it, [00:57:00] was really important. Can you think of, is there another next invisible economy right now? I don't know if it's gonna be $648 [00:57:10] billion hiding in plain sight, but is there anything that you think, um, we still haven't measured that is missing that could be important? Erin: Oh, [00:57:20] goodness. It's many things. Um, I- women's health I think is more in the consciousness, and we're doing a lot of work there philanthropically, also [00:57:30] investing behind it. I think people understand that market, but there's still gaps, and I think there's more we can do and more research and data that [00:57:40] we- that needs to happen that can then inform invest- you know, investable opportunities. Erin: That's still W- th- that's still untapped. And, and, you know, [00:57:50] women live longer. We live longer than men, but we spend more of our lives in poor health. And when I heard that, I was like, "Well, that's not good." Like [00:58:00] Yeah. Why is- I wanna live Leah: longer ... that? Erin: Yeah ... and be in poor health. Right. And so then that got me thinking to your question of like, well, what else are we not-- We've measured that or that's just a data point out there, but, like, let's go [00:58:10] a layer deeper, right? Erin: Like, what does that mean for, you know, studying diseases that may impact women differently, dispr- or, you know, [00:58:20] disproportionately versus the things that we face distinctly, or we've talked about menopause and other, other areas. So I, I, I feel like we're, we're... Women's health is much more in the consciousness, but there's [00:58:30] still-- So it's not hidden like, like care economy was maybe the same deg-degree, but I think there's more we can do there to quantify opportunities, do more research, [00:58:40] and then invest behind it. Erin: Um, and I think, yeah, AI intersecting these areas as well that are where I get excited around care economy and women's [00:58:50] health. I think there are opportunities there, um, to where, you know, we're maybe focused more on the, the big models and the, you know, OpenAI and Anthropic when they're gonna go [00:59:00] public and this and that, but it's like, you know, how is drug discovery gonna be transformed with AI? Erin: I, I think there's, you know, and people are talking about this, but that's where I get excited [00:59:10] thinking about particularly areas where we can focus on issues that impact women as being a space. And then the last one I'd say, which is I think [00:59:20] much, much more known now, is, is around women's sports, um, is a space that is, you know, still [00:59:30] much more in the consciousness. Erin: I, I often joke when I... You know, my, my son, um, he's the sports fanatic in our household. He loves A ball, and [00:59:40] he's always out in the backyard. Like, I think there's gonna be, like, a dent in my house 'cause he's, like, always kicking his soccer ball into the fence- Oh, gosh ... in the, the back of the house. Leah: Yeah. Erin: But if you were to ask him to name, like, five athletes, [00:59:50] I, I think at least two of them would probably be, probably be women. Erin: Might be Trinity Rodman, 'cause we go to Spirit games here in DC. And so he's growing up sort of seeing women athletes [01:00:00] just be excellent, right? And we watch it on TV. We go to, go to games. Um, and so I, I, I feel like though, but the percentage of women's sports of the broader global [01:00:10] sports market is still so small. Erin: And the rights, the media deals, the valuations of the franchises and the leagues are still far outpace- you know, below where, [01:00:20] where the men's side is. So I think that's a investable opportunity that we, and we, we know it, but we're still... The capital hasn't quite caught up there yet. Leah: Yes. Huge [01:00:30] opportunity. Leah: I'm gonna have Kelsey Robinson, who is a three-time, uh, Olympic medalist for volleyball, on the show in a [01:00:40] few weeks. I'm gonna interview her on Monday, and she is starting... She'll be the professional volleyball player on the San Francisco team for Love- Erin: Oh, great ... Leah: the- Yes, for Love ... yeah, the League One [01:00:50] volleyball. Leah: Yeah, yeah. So it's incredibly exciting to see- Yeah ... all of the movement that's happening there, and that is a- Yeah ... massive business just- Oh, huge ... waiting to be scaled, so I- Huge. [01:01:00] Huge ... that's, it's a good one. It's a good one. Erin: Yeah. Leah: Yeah. Um, you've really spent your career making the invisible visible, naming what capital refused to see. Leah: [01:01:10] 20 years from now, what precedent do you want people to say that you broke, looking back? Erin: Oh, that's a good [01:01:20] question. I, I think that we've broken the precedent that, again, you have to, you know, a founder or a fund manager has to [01:01:30] f- i- i- it's accepted that they, that it looks different than maybe how it's looked, how it looks today and how it looked 20 years prior. Erin: And when you open up a Midas [01:01:40] list or any list, you see a bunch more women on there, and we're already seeing that, right? But I, I think that, [01:01:50] that to me is some of the, the, the, the precedent or the, the mold that, that we'll have helped to break when, um... And that's how I kinda, I kinda define [01:02:00] Our success, my success as an investor and an allocator here is that, you know, others look at our portfolio or look back at this portfolio and say, "Wow, those are [01:02:10] some really good... Erin: Those are, those are some iconic funds, and we were there year one." And I think making it, you know, changing some of the in- these are all very, like, uh [01:02:20] very nerdy allocator, uh, precedent things. But, you know, that we maybe shifted the, the tolerance, you know, for risk in some ways, in that, you know, people... Erin: [01:02:30] Emerging next gen fund's a fund one. Oh, too risky. Well, is it really that risky, or you should rethink how you have built your process or [01:02:40] who you partner with to be able to capture that alpha? Because the data shows, as we've talked about, consistently, funds one to four, so these emerging funds, outperform [01:02:50] vintage year over vintage year. Erin: Um, so I think you have to be good at picking them, right? You have to build a process to do that, and we've, like, we've invested in some great ones. We've also invested in some that are not gonna do so great. But [01:03:00] it's, uh, it's, it's having that, I think, willingness to take that risk. I hope that we've demonstrated what you can achieve when you do it, and that others, you know, see that as, [01:03:10] as not a precedent that they have to follow- Leah: Yes Erin: any longer. Leah: Yes. I love that. I love that. So we've talked a lot about this economic case backing overlooked founders and investors, [01:03:20] overlooked markets, but okay, here's my question. What if the economic case is not actually the last obstacle, and what if the real obstacle ends up [01:03:30] being something deeper, maybe a story people have told themselves for so long that they think it's true, right? Leah: Do you, do you... If you peel back the layers, do you [01:03:40] think there's another layer, another story under there, and how do we break that? Erin: Ooh, yeah. I mean, I, I think, I think that's [01:03:50] a, a really honest and real way to think about why progress is slow many times. [01:04:00] Because, because there's something under, like, the hood or at the core that is inhibiting action in the face of all of [01:04:10] the information, data, statistics to show you Otherwise. Erin: Um, and I do think that's [01:04:20] why storytelling, i- and I mentioned earlier, you know, us using now our, our wonderful website and our social media channels and our platforms and our... [01:04:30] And when Melinda's out in the world talking about all of our work, you know, that, I, I think that's the antidote. That's what maybe chips away at. Erin: You have to counter, [01:04:40] like, that belief or that, that story that someone's been told for so many times that they think, "Well, that, that's true. That has to be the case. Even if the... Again, I'm gonna make a lot of [01:04:50] money doing this, this other thing, I'm just gonna do this, 'cause I- that's, like, what works." Like, you have to platform and show what else is possible from trusted, credible [01:05:00] individuals to kind of break that, that malaise, like, break that, that w- something that's rooted so, so deeply from, from making the [01:05:10] action. Erin: So it's... So I think you gotta counter the story with another story. Leah: Yes. It's actually part of the reason why I love doing this podcast, too, 'cause it's, like, I get to elevate all these amazing [01:05:20] stories. So it's, it's such... It's so much fun for me. Okay, so here's the last question. Um, we opened with the index card, writing down your purpose before you [01:05:30] fully lived it. Leah: What would you put on that card for the next generation of women trying to build in spaces that maybe capital hasn't discovered yet? What's one [01:05:40] thing that they, you think that they should write down and believe before anyone else does? Erin: Hmm. I, I think it's, [01:05:50] it's conviction. It's, it's you, you have to have, you have to have conviction and, and then doing the homework and, and again, getting, getting the [01:06:00] data to kinda- Leah: Get that data Erin: to hold you- Yeah. Get that data, but to hold you through the doubt- Yeah ... and the, the haters, the naysayers, all the- Mm ... things that are gonna kinda come at [01:06:10] you. Um, I think that's, I think that's kind of the, the, the convi- whatever's on the card, it, it has to be rooted in a, in a deep faith and belief and conviction. Erin: [01:06:20] So that's what I'd, I kinda come back to. So when I think about mine, you know, and what's motivated me for the, you know, last many, many years, it was that. Like, it was seeing some examples, but it was like, [01:06:30] this is... You know, I've spent, at that point, you know, a decade plus allocating capital in a certain way with a certain set of results, but yet seeing all these [01:06:40] other, like, opportunities out there that ultimately turned out to be good, too. Erin: So it was just... And then, and it was the data, it was the research showing that. It's like, well, I have conviction. Like, [01:06:50] I, I believe this. And then I think I, I write it down, I can go do it. Leah: Yep. I love that. I love that conviction. Well, Erin, this has been an amazing conversation, so inspiring, [01:07:00] so much fun. Thank you so much for joining me here. Erin: Oh, thank you for having me. This has been awesome. Just thank you, too, for, for building this podcast and this community and all the things that you're [01:07:10] doing, like, 'cause it's so important, and you've had so much success as a, as a founder and operator and investor, too, and so I just... It, it... You could be doing a lot of things, but like sitting [01:07:20] You're like spending more time- Yeah Erin: like, like you said, sharing these stories- Yeah ... to show people what's possible. So thank you. That's right. This is just a real honor- I love it ... to be here with you. Leah: You gotta... If you walk [01:07:30] through a door, I just feel like you gotta leave it open for others. Yep. Just bring people- I agree ... along. So thank you. I agree. Erin: Thank you. Leah: That was Erin Harkless-Moore, an investor who didn't just follow [01:07:40] capital into overlooked markets. She challenged the assumption that those markets were overlooked in the first place. From San Antonio to Goldman Sachs to [01:07:50] Cambridge to Pivotal, Erin's story is really about one thing, the refusal to accept that what is invisible to finance is invisible by [01:08:00] accident. Leah: She kept asking a question that most investors were too comfortable not to ask, "Why is this $648 billion economy sitting [01:08:10] outside the frame? Who decided it wasn't worth measuring? And what changes when we finally point a camera at it?" She reminds us that the most [01:08:20] powerful act in investing, maybe even in any field, isn't the check you write. Leah: It's naming what everyone else decided to look past. When you measure something, [01:08:30] you give it gravity. When you give it gravity, capital flows, and when capital flows, lives change. So here's the question she leaves us with. What else [01:08:40] is out there right now doing enormous work and still sitting off the ledger? Leah: What is the care economy equivalent in your world, [01:08:50] the thing that is foundational to everything and has somehow never been counted? And if you are the person who sees it, what are you waiting for? [01:09:00] If you know someone who's rewriting the rules in their own industry, I wanna hear their story. You can reach out to me on my website, breakingprecedent.com. Leah: Until next time, [01:09:10] I'm Leah Solivan.