Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #257 Jason Flom with Rickey Jackson

Transcript

#257 Jason Flom with Rickey Jackson · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: On May nineteenth, nineteen seventy five, two men approached fifty
0:05
Speaker 1: nine year old Harold Franks outside of a Cleveland, Ohio
0:08
Speaker 1: grocery store, demanding his briefcase. Franks resisted, and the men
0:12
Speaker 1: clubbed him with a pipe and splashed acid in his
0:15
Speaker 1: face before shooting him twice in the chest. The shooter
0:18
Speaker 1: fired into the grocery store as well, hitting co owner
0:21
Speaker 1: Ann Robinson, who survived. Mister Franks, however, did not. An
0:26
Speaker 1: eyewitness wrote down the plate number as the assailants sped
0:29
Speaker 1: off in a green convertible. Despite the plate number and
0:32
Speaker 1: other compelling leads, police instead focused on the word of
0:36
Speaker 1: twelve year old Eddie Vernon, who had been bragging about
0:38
Speaker 1: witnessing the crime from a bus, repeating an alleged rumer
0:42
Speaker 1: naming Ricky Jackson as well as Wiley and Ronnie Bridgman
0:45
Speaker 1: as the assailants. Vernon's classmates and the bus driver denied
0:49
Speaker 1: even having the vantage point to see the crime during
0:53
Speaker 1: interviews and then the lineup. When Eddie Vernon tried to
0:56
Speaker 1: back away from the lie, investigators threatened to lock up
0:59
Speaker 1: his parents if he didn't stick to the story. By
1:02
Speaker 1: ignoring more compelling suspects and instead coercing a child. The
1:07
Speaker 1: states at Ricky Jackson as well as Wiley and Ronnie
1:10
Speaker 1: Bridgman to death rout. When the nineteen seventy four reinstatement
1:14
Speaker 1: of the death penalty in Ohio was struck dout as
1:17
Speaker 1: unconstitutional in nineteen seventy eight, those condemned between those years
1:21
Speaker 1: had their senses commuted to life, including Ronnie, Wiley and Ricky,
1:25
Speaker 1: assuring the possibility of their innocence one day being recognized.
1:30
Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today's
1:47
Speaker 1: story is important in so many ways. The man who
1:53
Speaker 1: lived through this well four decades of imprisonment on the
1:58
Speaker 1: basis of an eyewitness who wasn't there, who was twelve
2:01
Speaker 1: years old at the time, who was coerced, pressured, croutbeaten
2:05
Speaker 1: by authorities, the same authorities who overlooked or ignored evidence
2:10
Speaker 1: pointing to the actual two assailants and what was a brutal,
2:14
Speaker 1: brutal crime. And I'm very, very honored to have the
2:18
Speaker 1: man himself, Ricky Jackson. Ricky, thank you for being here today.
2:21
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me Jason, I appreciate it. Thank you.
2:24
Speaker 1: So let's set the stage here. When I tell you
2:27
Speaker 1: the name of the place where this occurred, people are
2:29
Speaker 1: probably going to be given some knowing nods in their
2:33
Speaker 1: car or their home wherever they're listening, because it feels
2:36
Speaker 1: like every other episode we do is a wrong for
2:39
Speaker 1: conviction based in Cuyahoga County.
2:41
Speaker 3: Well, when you look at the number of Alexanderies through
2:44
Speaker 3: Kyahoga County, it justifies the statement you just made. At
2:48
Speaker 3: least in those times, the police pretty much owned the
2:51
Speaker 3: prosecutor's office, the coroner's office, whatever they sent up the pipeline.
2:56
Speaker 3: Nobody went against the police.
2:58
Speaker 1: No, that's right. Your story, as you were telling me earlier,
3:03
Speaker 1: is important because if it could happen to you, it
3:07
Speaker 1: can happen to anyone. And when I say that you
3:10
Speaker 1: lived a relatively normal, peaceful life growing up, you were
3:14
Speaker 1: only eighteen when this happened. You were still really a child,
3:17
Speaker 1: let's face it, but you know, turning into a man.
3:19
Speaker 3: I mean back in the mid seventies, you know, life
3:22
Speaker 3: was not as hectic as it is today, and I
3:25
Speaker 3: was doing the typical eighteen year old stuff. One of
3:28
Speaker 3: my friends, or Wilie Bridgeman, he had joined the National Guard.
3:31
Speaker 2: He came home one day on lead we saw that
3:34
Speaker 2: uniform and we were so all and impressed and amazed
3:38
Speaker 2: by that.
3:39
Speaker 3: That we immediately set our sights so on joining the military,
3:43
Speaker 3: you know, and.
3:44
Speaker 1: You joined the Marines, right, and then we're honorably discharged
3:47
Speaker 1: for medical reasons.
3:49
Speaker 3: Yes, I was doing a detail and the driver pulled
3:52
Speaker 3: off before.
3:53
Speaker 2: I had a good burm hold.
3:54
Speaker 3: On the back of a dump truck and I fell off,
3:56
Speaker 3: and my back hasn't been the same. I thought I
3:59
Speaker 3: was going to be able to get out, we had
4:00
Speaker 3: my back and re enlist. But in the process of
4:03
Speaker 3: doing that, Eddie burning happened.
4:08
Speaker 1: Yes, Eddie Vernon happened. That's a help of a way
4:11
Speaker 1: of putting it very direct. It all comes down to
4:15
Speaker 1: this kid, and I'm talking about he was a kid,
4:17
Speaker 1: he was twelve years old. I feel that he's a
4:19
Speaker 1: victim in this as well. I don't know if you
4:21
Speaker 1: share that belief.
4:22
Speaker 2: I do. I do. I strongly share that. I mean,
4:24
Speaker 2: he was a twelve year old kid.
4:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, and at twelve years old, we know how easily
4:29
Speaker 1: influenced you can be and how easily scared you can
4:32
Speaker 1: be at that age. And then a lie just grows into.
4:36
Speaker 2: Something you can't control.
4:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, it grows horns and it gets worse and worse.
4:42
Speaker 1: So Eddie Vernon, was he just a kid from the neighborhood.
4:45
Speaker 1: Did you guys know him?
4:47
Speaker 2: He used to be our paperboy at one time.
4:49
Speaker 3: I remember when I used to come home from school
4:52
Speaker 3: to have lunch in the winter time.
4:54
Speaker 2: He will be sitting at our kitchen table.
4:55
Speaker 3: My mother would like give him soup and a grilled
4:58
Speaker 3: cheese sandwich or something like that because it was so
5:01
Speaker 3: cold outside before he continued on with his route. I
5:05
Speaker 3: mean because of our age difference. I never, you know,
5:07
Speaker 3: hung out with him and anything, but I knew his family.
5:11
Speaker 1: The crime itself, this is a crime that happened on
5:15
Speaker 1: May nineteenth to nineteen seventy five when fifty nine year
5:19
Speaker 1: old Harold Franks, who was a money order salesman, where
5:22
Speaker 1: he was leaving a grocery store on Fairhill Road in Cleveland, Ohio,
5:25
Speaker 1: when two men approached him. The men confronted mister Franks
5:29
Speaker 1: and demanded his briefcase. And this is where it gets
5:32
Speaker 1: really crazy. When Franks resisted, they clubbed him in the
5:36
Speaker 1: head with a pipe and splashed acid in his face.
5:39
Speaker 1: What kind of sick people are these And one of
5:42
Speaker 1: the men then shot him twice in the chest and
5:45
Speaker 1: fired a shot through the store's glass front door, hitting
5:49
Speaker 1: fifty eight year old Ann Robinson, who was the co
5:52
Speaker 1: owner of the store. She was shot at the neck,
5:54
Speaker 1: but somehow miraculously survived. Mister Franks tragically did not. The
5:59
Speaker 1: two robbers fled with the briefcase. Remember I said, two
6:02
Speaker 1: robbers containing four hundred and twenty five dollars and some
6:06
Speaker 1: blank money orders, and they escaped in a green car
6:09
Speaker 1: that was parked down the street. Did you have a
6:10
Speaker 1: green car, by.
6:11
Speaker 2: The way, No, never, I didn't even own a car.
6:16
Speaker 1: Okay, man So and by the way, the three guys
6:19
Speaker 1: convicted for a crime the two guys committed. That's just
6:22
Speaker 1: one little fraction of the problems with this case. Right
6:26
Speaker 1: find out as we go along.
6:28
Speaker 3: May nineteenth, the crime had just happened not two hundred
6:31
Speaker 3: feet from where we lived, the three of us, and so,
6:34
Speaker 3: you know, we saw people gradually going towards the Fair
6:38
Speaker 3: Hill area, and so we asked, like, what's going on,
6:42
Speaker 3: you know, and they like, somebody just.
6:44
Speaker 2: Got killed up at the store.
6:45
Speaker 3: We didn't have nothing to do at the particular time,
6:48
Speaker 3: so we decided to go up there and be lucky
6:51
Speaker 3: lose as well. We got up there and by the
6:53
Speaker 3: time we reached the location, the police were up there.
6:56
Speaker 3: There were TV cameras out there. The police had the
6:59
Speaker 3: area Hordendolph and there was a body with the sheet
7:03
Speaker 3: laying askew. And I saw Eddie Vernon at the scene
7:07
Speaker 3: at a crime and he was looking around like everybody
7:11
Speaker 3: else was. And so we stayed up there for approsequently
7:15
Speaker 3: fifteen to twenty five minutes and we left.
7:18
Speaker 1: The investigation involved detectives Eugene Terpe and James Farmer, as
7:24
Speaker 1: well as numerous others. They had the license plate number
7:27
Speaker 1: of the green escape car. This case came with instructions
7:30
Speaker 1: that escape car belonged to a guy named Ishmael Hickson.
7:34
Speaker 1: And they were also pointed this is I mean when
7:37
Speaker 1: I read this, my head about exploded. Okay, so get
7:40
Speaker 1: this everyone. They were also pointed in the direction of
7:44
Speaker 1: Paul Gardenshire, whose own mother contacted the store owner and
7:50
Speaker 1: the police to report that her son had a gun
7:54
Speaker 1: and that she believed that he was involved in the shooting.
7:58
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
7:59
Speaker 3: The same caliber gun, mind you, of the gun that
8:02
Speaker 3: was used to kill mister Franks.
8:04
Speaker 1: The guy's freaking mother came forward, and then another informant
8:08
Speaker 1: also implicated Gardenshire, who said that he stole his grandfather's
8:13
Speaker 1: thirty eight caliber gun, which was the murder weapon, and
8:16
Speaker 1: was driving around in a convertible that was yes, you
8:19
Speaker 1: guessed it green in color, and that was the escape car.
8:23
Speaker 1: These details were not public knowledge at the time, right,
8:26
Speaker 1: so this is inside information, and Officer Terpe found the
8:31
Speaker 1: green convertible exactly where the informant said it would be.
8:35
Speaker 1: I'm getting the chills now.
8:36
Speaker 2: There were a lot of viable suspects.
8:38
Speaker 3: The FBI even got in contact with the Cleveland Police
8:42
Speaker 3: Department and told them that you need to be looking at.
8:45
Speaker 2: These guys right here.
8:46
Speaker 3: They have anmo of throwing liquids in people's faces when
8:49
Speaker 3: they robbed them, you know, And you know, the police
8:54
Speaker 3: for a time went down this road. But when you
8:57
Speaker 3: got a twelve year old boy saying that he was
9:00
Speaker 3: an actual eyewitness, you know, and they're not going to
9:03
Speaker 3: spend on that time chasing these leads of what might
9:07
Speaker 3: have been when we got an actual witness.
9:10
Speaker 1: And of course you're referring to Eddie Vernon, who had
9:13
Speaker 1: he actually seen anything and had you and the Bridgeman's
9:16
Speaker 1: actually been the culprits, he could have pointed you out
9:19
Speaker 1: to the police when you were all at the scene
9:21
Speaker 1: right after the crime had occurred. But the fact is
9:24
Speaker 1: he hadn't seen anything, As he admitted so many long
9:27
Speaker 1: years later, he was actually on the bus with a
9:30
Speaker 1: bunch of his classmates at the time of the crime.
9:32
Speaker 1: They all heard the gunshots, but none of them had
9:36
Speaker 1: a vantage point to see anything. It was not possible
9:40
Speaker 1: for them to see the crime, not even the bus
9:43
Speaker 1: driver who would have had the best view. So from
9:46
Speaker 1: what I understand, there was a rumor that you and
9:48
Speaker 1: the Bridgemans may have been involved. We don't know how
9:51
Speaker 1: this river got started. Maybe there wasn't even a rumor
9:54
Speaker 1: at all. Maybe your name came from the cops. Either way,
9:58
Speaker 1: it's hard to know. But how the hell is Eddie
10:00
Speaker 1: end up as a target of police coercion and get
10:03
Speaker 1: forced into making a statement implicating you as well as
10:06
Speaker 1: Wiley and Ronnie Bridgeman.
10:08
Speaker 3: Edward Burning was running around the neighborhood telling people that
10:12
Speaker 3: he had saw the whole crime and he knew who
10:14
Speaker 3: did it, and so you know, eventually this got back
10:18
Speaker 3: to the gentleman that owned the store where the crime
10:21
Speaker 3: took place, and so he tracked Edward Burning down, took
10:24
Speaker 3: him back to the store and started grilling him, like,
10:27
Speaker 3: if you saw who did this, you need to tell us.
10:30
Speaker 3: And so the store owner got the police involved, and
10:33
Speaker 3: then the police started putting the screws in Eddie burning.
10:36
Speaker 3: But upon talking to this twelve year old boy, even
10:40
Speaker 3: for a rookie police officer, it would have been easy
10:43
Speaker 3: to tell that this kid was fabricating a lot of shit.
10:47
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I mean, this is probably an insecure
10:49
Speaker 1: kid who wanted to be the center of attention. So
10:51
Speaker 1: he went out and told people he had seen the crime. Well,
10:54
Speaker 1: and that's what started this whole snowball effect. And then
10:56
Speaker 1: the police get this tunnel vision and they decided that
11:00
Speaker 1: they don't really care about investigating the crime. In fact,
11:02
Speaker 1: when they did investigate the crime. When investigation they did,
11:06
Speaker 1: they collected physical evidence from the scene, but inconveniently, none
11:11
Speaker 1: of it matched you, Ronnie or Wiley. So the evidence
11:15
Speaker 1: that they did have, which again should have been the
11:18
Speaker 1: giant red flag ding ding ding ding ding that should
11:20
Speaker 1: have been it, right, all of that evidence pointed to
11:23
Speaker 1: other people, including the license plate number of the green
11:26
Speaker 1: escape car which they.
11:28
Speaker 3: Had, I mean, and all these people had arm robbery
11:32
Speaker 3: on their rap seats.
11:33
Speaker 1: So no other investigation was conducted into these or any
11:37
Speaker 1: other leads. Once Eddie Vernon came forward, all the other
11:41
Speaker 1: investigations stopped and they focused on you three guys with
11:46
Speaker 1: absolute total tunnel vision.
11:48
Speaker 3: They pretty much kidnapped this kid, you know, and they
11:52
Speaker 3: told his parents if they ever tried to get involved
11:55
Speaker 3: or ever tried to stop them from coming to get Edward,
11:57
Speaker 3: that they would prosecute them. Had complete and total control
12:01
Speaker 3: of this twelve year old kid, and so this began
12:05
Speaker 3: the process of molding Eddie Vernon from a liar and
12:10
Speaker 3: to aligning witness. They pretty much had to build this
12:13
Speaker 3: case and give Edward burning information as they went along,
12:17
Speaker 3: which is why his testimony and his statement changed from
12:21
Speaker 3: day to day, you know, because they were feeding him information.
12:25
Speaker 3: He didn't see what happened, and so he had to
12:27
Speaker 3: create something and they kept the pressure on it. Fast
12:31
Speaker 3: forward a few days later, the three of us were
12:34
Speaker 3: coming home from a party. Was about one o'clock at night,
12:37
Speaker 3: and my dad had this policy when he locks his
12:40
Speaker 3: doors at night, all in ain't getting in, you know,
12:44
Speaker 3: so it wasn't not common for me to, you know,
12:46
Speaker 3: go sleep at the Bridgeman's house, who stayed just a
12:48
Speaker 3: couple of houses down for me. Anyway, just as I
12:51
Speaker 3: was knotted off, I saw lights going by my window,
12:55
Speaker 3: you know, flashlights, And before I could get my whereabouts together,
12:59
Speaker 3: the door was exploded in the room was filled with
13:03
Speaker 3: police officers who with guns lights, and they were shouting
13:08
Speaker 3: my name and was shouting at Bridgeman's names. They got
13:11
Speaker 3: me first because I was right there on the couch
13:13
Speaker 3: in the front room where the door was kicked in,
13:15
Speaker 3: So they grabbed me, threw.
13:16
Speaker 2: Me to the floor, knees in the black.
13:19
Speaker 3: Handcuffed me, asking me what were the Bridgeman's at And
13:22
Speaker 3: I was so confused. I didn't know what to say
13:24
Speaker 3: because I was horrified. I mean, it was just like
13:26
Speaker 3: a total shock. But by the time they drugged me
13:30
Speaker 3: outside and had me on top of a police car,
13:33
Speaker 3: I could look down the street and see my entire family.
13:43
Speaker 3: I could see my entire family stressed out in the street,
13:48
Speaker 3: and every one of them had a shotgun pointed at
13:50
Speaker 3: their heads.
14:05
Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Traig
14:09
Speaker 1: through its pro bono program. Greenberg TRAIG leverages its more
14:12
Speaker 1: than twenty four hundred lawyers across forty two offices to
14:15
Speaker 1: serve the greater good of our communities and provide equal
14:18
Speaker 1: access to justice for all. In the field of criminal justice,
14:21
Speaker 1: Greenberg Triwerg attorneys have exonerated in freedomand in Philadelphia, represent
14:26
Speaker 1: numerous individuals previously sentenced to life for crimes committed as
14:29
Speaker 1: juveniles and resentencing hearings, and received the American Bar Association's
14:33
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one Exceptional Service Award for Death Penalty Representation
14:36
Speaker 1: for their work on five death penalty cases. GT is
14:40
Speaker 1: reimagining what big law can be because a more just
14:44
Speaker 1: world only happens by design.
14:53
Speaker 3: It became obvious to me that they had hit my
14:55
Speaker 3: house first en route to the Brisma's house, and they
14:59
Speaker 3: finally got to Bri out of the house, and I mean,
15:01
Speaker 3: we were still just totally in shock. We didn't know
15:04
Speaker 3: what the hell did we do. We had just came
15:06
Speaker 3: from a party. There was no incident at the party,
15:09
Speaker 3: so we are totally confused as to what's going on,
15:12
Speaker 3: not knowing that this is all related to that man
15:16
Speaker 3: having got killed. A couple of days earlier up at
15:18
Speaker 3: fair Hill. We didn't know this at the time, We
15:20
Speaker 3: had no clue. We get downtown the next morning, we
15:26
Speaker 3: go into a lineup, they do their thing, they let
15:30
Speaker 3: us out. Unbeknownst to us at the time, Eddie Burning
15:35
Speaker 3: was standing behind that two way glass.
15:38
Speaker 2: And he refused, he couldn't pick anybody.
15:40
Speaker 3: He didn't pick anybody, and so the police never told
15:46
Speaker 3: us we were free to go. Instead, they took Edward
15:49
Speaker 3: Burning in the back room, a twelve year old boy,
15:52
Speaker 3: unescorted by a parent or a lawyer.
15:55
Speaker 2: Took him back in the back room and they threatened him.
15:57
Speaker 3: They told him that they couldn't do nothing to him
16:00
Speaker 3: because he was a kid, but if he didn't pick
16:03
Speaker 3: us out in that line up Ricky Jackson and Wally
16:06
Speaker 3: Bridgeman and Ronnie Bridgeman.
16:08
Speaker 2: That they would make sure that he never saw his
16:11
Speaker 2: mom and dad again.
16:12
Speaker 3: They would sending his mom and dad to prison for
16:15
Speaker 3: a long time because he started this process and now
16:18
Speaker 3: he had to finish it. And so while we were
16:21
Speaker 3: outside in the common area making a phone call to
16:24
Speaker 3: call our folks and say, well, you know, they haven't
16:27
Speaker 3: told us anything, so I guess you can come and
16:29
Speaker 3: get us he points us out while we're out in
16:33
Speaker 3: the common room with hundreds of other people, prisoners or whatever,
16:37
Speaker 3: making phone calls.
16:38
Speaker 2: And a couple hours later, they called us and told.
16:41
Speaker 3: Us that we had been indicted for murder and they
16:45
Speaker 3: were seeking the death penalty. And that's when we found
16:49
Speaker 3: out that Edward Vernon was a kid that was saying
16:53
Speaker 3: that he had saw us do this. It was just
16:57
Speaker 3: mind boggling because my mind instantly went back to that
17:00
Speaker 3: day when I saw him standing there at the scene
17:03
Speaker 3: at the crime like everybody else in the neighborhood, you know,
17:07
Speaker 3: and like, why wouldn't you say to the police because
17:09
Speaker 3: there was plenty of police there.
17:11
Speaker 2: That's him right there.
17:12
Speaker 1: Because Eddie Vernon never saw a freaking thing nothing. He
17:17
Speaker 1: just told a lie like many little kids do, and
17:21
Speaker 1: then he got roped into repeating that lie in an
17:25
Speaker 1: arena where the stakes were well life and death and
17:29
Speaker 1: so On May twenty fifth, nineteen seventy five, You, Wiley,
17:33
Speaker 1: and Ronnie were all charged with aggravated murder, aggravated attempted murder,
17:38
Speaker 1: as well as aggravated robbery, and the trial started that August.
17:41
Speaker 1: You guys went to trial. The prosecution's case rested. Well,
17:46
Speaker 1: there was nothing else other than the testimony of this
17:48
Speaker 1: little kid who is now thirteen. His testimony was all
17:51
Speaker 1: over the place. He initially told the cops that he
17:53
Speaker 1: was on the bus coming home from school when he
17:55
Speaker 1: saw two men attack mister Franks as he got out
17:57
Speaker 1: of his car walked the store, But a trial Eddie
18:00
Speaker 1: that he had already gotten off the bus when he
18:01
Speaker 1: saw the attack, and that the attack occurred as Frank's
18:04
Speaker 1: emerged from the store, So very very different than what
18:06
Speaker 1: he originally said. That should have been a huge flag
18:08
Speaker 1: there as well. An Robinson meanwhile testified the woman who
18:11
Speaker 1: was shot in the neck that she had been shot
18:14
Speaker 1: by a bullet that came through the store's front door,
18:16
Speaker 1: but she was unable to identify the robbers, understandably so,
18:19
Speaker 1: and a sixteen year old neighborhood girl testified for the defense,
18:23
Speaker 1: saying that she walked into the store just before the
18:25
Speaker 1: attack and saw two, not three men outside the store,
18:27
Speaker 1: and that neither of the two men or any of
18:30
Speaker 1: you three guys, very brave young girl. Several of Eddie
18:34
Speaker 1: Vernon's classmates testified that he was on the bus with
18:36
Speaker 1: them when they heard the gun shots, but that none
18:39
Speaker 1: of them were able to see the robbers.
18:41
Speaker 3: During the course of our three separate trials, we had
18:44
Speaker 3: nearly every kid on that bus testified in our behalf
18:49
Speaker 3: about what they saw where the bus was at that time.
18:52
Speaker 3: And that was like ten or twelve kids saying the
18:55
Speaker 3: same thing. You know, he couldn't have possibly be seen,
18:58
Speaker 3: and we were all on the bus together. He didn't
19:00
Speaker 3: get out before we got all we got off at
19:02
Speaker 3: the same stop, and the bus driver he's got the
19:06
Speaker 3: best seat in the house, you know, but he didn't
19:09
Speaker 3: see anything. But it was so easy to inflame an
19:12
Speaker 3: all white jewelry when you got a black person accused
19:15
Speaker 3: of killing a white person. You know, anything you have
19:18
Speaker 3: to say on your behalf, never really not listening to that.
19:22
Speaker 3: You know, Let's let's get to the park where we
19:24
Speaker 3: execute this dude.
19:25
Speaker 2: You know.
19:26
Speaker 3: And that's pretty much what my trial balled down to,
19:31
Speaker 3: you know. I mean a judge even said during a
19:35
Speaker 3: recess that he didn't believe the state witness for one minute.
19:40
Speaker 3: But I'm not gonna take the power out of jury's hands.
19:44
Speaker 3: That's your job as a judge. If you have a witness,
19:48
Speaker 3: a key witness, you talk about executing three people, and
19:53
Speaker 3: you say, outside of the court record of I don't
19:56
Speaker 3: believe this kid for a man that he's lying. I
19:59
Speaker 3: saw him and being coached out in the hallway, but
20:02
Speaker 3: I'm not going to do anything about it. And when
20:05
Speaker 3: you're up against stuff like that, there's no way you
20:08
Speaker 3: can win.
20:09
Speaker 1: And let us not forget that. In so doing, and
20:12
Speaker 1: not just the judge, but the prosecutors, the cops, and
20:15
Speaker 1: everybody else who was involved in this fiasco, they're also
20:20
Speaker 1: allowing the two guys that committed this disgusting crime to
20:25
Speaker 1: remain free.
20:26
Speaker 3: Thank you for bringing that up, because it's a point
20:29
Speaker 3: I try to make so often about the uncounted victims
20:34
Speaker 3: that off Boss imprisonment possibly created.
20:37
Speaker 2: We'll never know the numbers you guys.
20:39
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, did have alibi witnesses who testified.
20:42
Speaker 3: I hate to keep saying this man, but whatever we
20:45
Speaker 3: had to say, Yes, we had a lot of witnesses,
20:47
Speaker 3: you know, my mother, I mean, timelines, everything. But all
20:52
Speaker 3: they wanted to know was like, when is we gonna
20:54
Speaker 3: hang this league? And I'm sorry to say that, but
21:01
Speaker 3: that's what I felt like. You know, it didn't matter
21:04
Speaker 3: what we had to say. It didn't matter that the
21:07
Speaker 3: evidence was shitty. A white man is dead and somebody
21:11
Speaker 3: needs to pay for it. If they didn't do this,
21:14
Speaker 3: they probably did something else, you know, And that was
21:17
Speaker 3: the Bavaili attitude.
21:19
Speaker 2: How can you be prepared.
21:21
Speaker 3: To kill three young men based on almost absolutely nothing,
21:29
Speaker 3: but they were willing to and didn't blink an eye
21:31
Speaker 3: about it. I spent two and a half years on
21:34
Speaker 3: death road. I came within two months of being executed.
21:42
Speaker 3: This has got to stop. For a long time, I
22:04
Speaker 3: thought that this was just a racio and an economical issue.
22:09
Speaker 2: But this happens to everybody.
22:12
Speaker 3: I know a lot of gunneries from around the country,
22:15
Speaker 3: including Hawaii. You know what I'm saying, that had professions,
22:19
Speaker 3: they had children, they were happily married, and they got
22:22
Speaker 3: caught up in this same madness. They got caught up
22:27
Speaker 3: in the same madness. And when it's you against the state,
22:30
Speaker 3: guess what, You're gonna lose every time. You are gonna
22:35
Speaker 3: lose every time because they don't have to follow the rules.
22:40
Speaker 3: And if they get caught, guess what, there's no repercussions.
22:45
Speaker 1: Right. Imagine if the suspect went to a twelve year
22:49
Speaker 1: old kid and threatened him, I'm gonna take your parents
22:52
Speaker 1: away from you. You'll never see him again unless you
22:55
Speaker 1: do exactly what I said. You lie like I tell
22:57
Speaker 1: you too. I mean, we all know that no allowed
23:00
Speaker 1: to bribe a witness, but the government can offer them
23:03
Speaker 1: plea deals. I can threaten them and not supposed to
23:06
Speaker 1: threaten them, but they do. But they could definitely offer
23:09
Speaker 1: them plea deals, and that's the best bribe of all.
23:11
Speaker 1: So it's like, yeah, you have no shot in hell.
23:13
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, and you had no shot in hell.
23:15
Speaker 1: So in August of nineteen seventy five, you were convicted
23:20
Speaker 1: along with Wiley, and Ronnie was convicted in September, and
23:24
Speaker 1: all of you were sentenced to death later commuted to
23:27
Speaker 1: life in prison, which is like a living death sentence.
23:29
Speaker 1: What was your experience of death.
23:30
Speaker 3: Throw The moment you got back, there was always this
23:34
Speaker 3: feeling I'm impending doom, Like it was right around the corner.
23:38
Speaker 3: You know, you had you had two options, go crazy
23:42
Speaker 3: or you accept this and make it work for you.
23:45
Speaker 3: You know, I was on the mission anyway, you know,
23:47
Speaker 3: I was innocent, you know, and I wasn't gonna lay
23:50
Speaker 3: back here waiting for my death. Dating So between my workouts,
23:54
Speaker 3: I would write. I wrote so many letters, you know,
23:57
Speaker 3: and they cut the lights off at a certain time
23:59
Speaker 3: in prison, so you got to get up on the
24:01
Speaker 3: bars and like get the little light coming out from
24:04
Speaker 3: the security light outside. And I'm up, like two thirty
24:07
Speaker 3: in the morning just writing anybody that would listen, you know,
24:11
Speaker 3: like I'm on death row, my execution data so and
24:14
Speaker 3: so so and so I'm innocent. My two friends are
24:17
Speaker 3: innocent looking to my case, you know. And that's what
24:20
Speaker 3: I did, worked out, made friends back there. You know,
24:24
Speaker 3: you survived, man, the best you could, you know, like
24:26
Speaker 3: I said, But it was always an impending doom while
24:29
Speaker 3: I was back there. You know, the Ohio state legislation
24:33
Speaker 3: was in flux about what they wanted to do with
24:36
Speaker 3: the death penalty and soul. They placed the moratorium on executions,
24:41
Speaker 3: and that's what eventually got everybody off of death row.
24:44
Speaker 2: Doing my stint back there, but.
24:47
Speaker 3: Life in general back there was like, you don't have
24:51
Speaker 3: a life. Your life is on the calendar, you know,
24:56
Speaker 3: you can see the end of your life.
24:58
Speaker 2: It's on the calendar. So you lived.
25:00
Speaker 3: From day to day and hope something comes down from
25:03
Speaker 3: the United States Supreme Court or the Hio Supreme court.
25:07
Speaker 3: That's going to spare your life. You know, things could
25:10
Speaker 3: have went the other way. This interview might not ever
25:14
Speaker 3: be happening today. My daughter might not be here today,
25:17
Speaker 3: my wife, my other children. Things could have easily went
25:21
Speaker 3: the other way. You know, it's not uncommon for innocent
25:24
Speaker 3: people to get executed.
25:25
Speaker 2: It happens all the time.
25:27
Speaker 1: So I know you had been writing letters. A very
25:29
Speaker 1: powerful image you gave before from death row leaning up
25:32
Speaker 1: against the bars to get a little bit of light
25:34
Speaker 1: you could get. So you had written probably to everybody
25:36
Speaker 1: and their mother by this point. But how did you
25:38
Speaker 1: manage to get the Ohio Innocence Project particulication? When did
25:41
Speaker 1: they get about I.
25:43
Speaker 3: Think it was around two thousand and five when I
25:45
Speaker 3: first wrote them, they were just themselves starting up. I
25:50
Speaker 3: contacted them and I gave them the particulars of my case.
25:54
Speaker 3: It was a long process, I mean, because they vetted
25:58
Speaker 3: everything that you send them and say to them, because
26:01
Speaker 3: they only deal with totally innocent people. I say, ope
26:06
Speaker 3: appeared of like three and a half years. I got
26:10
Speaker 3: a letter from them saying that they had decided, after
26:13
Speaker 3: reviewing my case, to take our case. It took another
26:16
Speaker 3: additional three or four years, you know, to get to
26:19
Speaker 3: the point of the recantation for Maddy Vernon.
26:22
Speaker 1: So okay. Twenty eleven, Cleveland Scene magazine published a very
26:27
Speaker 1: detailed examination of the case and highlighted the many, many
26:30
Speaker 1: inconsistencies in Vernon's testimony, as well as the absence of
26:33
Speaker 1: any other evidence linking you, Ronnie or Wiley to the crime.
26:37
Speaker 1: And the article pointed out that Vernon had been paid
26:40
Speaker 1: fifty dollars by Ann Robinson's husband to testify at the trial. Okay, now,
26:44
Speaker 1: fifty dollars in nineteen seventy Whatever it was to a
26:47
Speaker 1: twelve year old kid, probably was a lot of money.
26:50
Speaker 1: But besides that, there's all the other stuff. But that
26:53
Speaker 1: was the fact, most importantly that Vernon had failed to
26:55
Speaker 1: mention in his testimony that he had literally been paid
26:58
Speaker 1: for it. Okay. So, Kyle Swenson, the recorder who wrote
27:03
Speaker 1: this article, attempted to interview Eddie Vernon, but he refused
27:06
Speaker 1: to talk about the case. So Swinson reached out to
27:09
Speaker 1: Vernon's pastor, Arthur Singleton. This Swinson, guy, man, I'd like
27:12
Speaker 1: to buy him a beer. When Singleton mentioned to Vernon
27:15
Speaker 1: that the reporter wanted to talk to him, Vernon brushed
27:18
Speaker 1: him off, telling him to ignore the reporter. But months
27:21
Speaker 1: later Swinson sent his article to Singleton, who asked Vernon
27:24
Speaker 1: about it, and still Vernon refused to talk about it.
27:27
Speaker 1: In twenty thirteen, Singleton paid a visit to Vernon in
27:31
Speaker 1: a hospital where Eddie Vernon was being treated for high
27:34
Speaker 1: blood pressure. Singleton later said in a sworn AFFI David
27:37
Speaker 1: that he asked Vernon again about the article, and this
27:39
Speaker 1: is a direct quote. Eddie Vernon told me that he
27:42
Speaker 1: lied to the police when he said he had witnessed
27:44
Speaker 1: the murder in nineteen seventy five and he had put
27:47
Speaker 1: three innocent men in prison for the murder end quote.
27:50
Speaker 1: Then another quote. He told me that he tried to
27:53
Speaker 1: back out of the lie at the time of the lineup,
27:55
Speaker 1: but he was only a child that the police told
27:57
Speaker 1: him it was too late to change his story. Quote.
28:00
Speaker 1: Singleton said that Vernon then broke down and wept, and
28:05
Speaker 1: he said, quote I could see the weight being lifted
28:08
Speaker 1: from his shoulders end quote.
28:11
Speaker 3: By then, I and myself, Brian Howell, Mark Gatzi, and
28:14
Speaker 3: the rest of the team were quite familiar with each other.
28:18
Speaker 2: I get a call one day and Brian.
28:20
Speaker 3: Said I could immediately tell that it was something, something
28:27
Speaker 3: I've been waiting for for a long time.
28:29
Speaker 2: I didn't know what it was, but I knew just by.
28:32
Speaker 3: His attitude and the way he was trying to keep
28:36
Speaker 3: his composure, I knew it was something big. And when
28:39
Speaker 3: he told me that Eddie Vernon had recanted his testimony
28:45
Speaker 3: being a lawyer, that he is the great lawyer that
28:47
Speaker 3: he is, he was like, Yep, this is great.
28:52
Speaker 2: But it's not the end of the journey.
28:54
Speaker 1: You know.
28:55
Speaker 2: Now we have to get a judge to accept this.
28:59
Speaker 3: And I got to tell you, Ricky, recantations are the
29:03
Speaker 3: hardest piece of evidence to get before judge.
29:06
Speaker 1: You know.
29:07
Speaker 3: Once a witness makes a statement, that's it. But we're
29:11
Speaker 3: going to see what we can do.
29:12
Speaker 1: So now, after this recantation, Brian Howe and Mark Gotzi
29:16
Speaker 1: at the Ohio Innocence Project filed the petition for a
29:18
Speaker 1: new trial on behalf of you Ricky Jackson, and similar
29:22
Speaker 1: petitions were later filed on behalf of the Bridgeman brothers,
29:26
Speaker 1: and the Ohio Innocence Project's reinvestigation of the case uncovered
29:30
Speaker 1: evidence that when Vernon attempted to recant his identification of
29:34
Speaker 1: the three defendant's police intimidated him to testify falsely. The
29:38
Speaker 1: police had never disclosed to the defense attorneys to any
29:42
Speaker 1: of you guys that Vernon attempted to recant his accusations
29:45
Speaker 1: prior to the trials. Of course, if they had, it
29:47
Speaker 1: would have blown the case up. So of course they didn't, right,
29:50
Speaker 1: because they were just deep in their own lives now. So,
29:53
Speaker 1: police reports obtained by Ohiouse Innocence Project also showed the
29:57
Speaker 1: police considered the two other men, Paul Guard and shion
30:00
Speaker 1: Ismael Hickson, as suspects, but their investigation was terminated as
30:05
Speaker 1: soon as this young kid falsely identified you three guys.
30:09
Speaker 1: And of course, lastly, the license plate on the green
30:12
Speaker 1: car scene speeding away from the crime was matched to
30:15
Speaker 1: a car belonging to mister Hickson, whose record, his long
30:19
Speaker 1: rap sheet, included a robbery and a shooting a year earlier.
30:23
Speaker 1: Back in nineteen seventy six, a year after the Franks murder,
30:26
Speaker 1: Hickson pled guilty to over a dozen counts of aggravated robbery.
30:31
Speaker 1: So now we get to twenty fourteen, Judge Richard mcmonagall
30:36
Speaker 1: held a hearing on your motion for a new trial.
30:39
Speaker 1: Eddie Vernon testified that police had bet in the details
30:42
Speaker 1: of the crime. A direct quote from him, I don't
30:44
Speaker 1: have any knowledge about what happened at the scene of
30:46
Speaker 1: the crime. Everything was a lie. They were all lies.
30:50
Speaker 1: End quote.
30:51
Speaker 3: Edward Vernon was a catalyst to all of this. He
30:54
Speaker 3: got all of this started, He got us locked up.
30:57
Speaker 3: But in the end, his testimony is what got us free.
31:03
Speaker 3: Anybody that was in that courtroom, in that gallery that day,
31:07
Speaker 3: hearing him from the witness stand left no doubt in
31:12
Speaker 3: anyone's mind that this was a guy that had made
31:16
Speaker 3: a terrible mistake. And now he's sitting here, everybody against him,
31:22
Speaker 3: everybody hating him. But he's sitting up here and doing
31:26
Speaker 3: what he know he has to do. And he did it. Man,
31:31
Speaker 3: he really did it. And so I know a lot
31:33
Speaker 3: of people can't understand this. People like I don't care,
31:36
Speaker 3: I still would hate him or whatever. Well, that's y'all's.
31:40
Speaker 2: Problem to deal with. I don't have no time for it.
31:42
Speaker 3: You know, I'm just giving credit what credit is due
31:45
Speaker 3: because his testimony and his candor on that witness stand
31:50
Speaker 3: was tent about to us being free.
31:52
Speaker 1: Here today, so Vernon told the judge that he was
31:55
Speaker 1: on the bus when he heard two pops that sounded
31:57
Speaker 1: like firecrackers. The bus was, you know, in the neighborhood,
32:00
Speaker 1: in the area of the store, but not near enough
32:03
Speaker 1: to the crime scene that he could have seen anything
32:05
Speaker 1: that took place, just like all the other kids on
32:07
Speaker 1: the bus had said. But based on a rumor he
32:09
Speaker 1: heard on the street, he went to the scene and
32:12
Speaker 1: told police that you three guys committed the crime. He
32:15
Speaker 1: was thinking at the time he was doing the right thing,
32:17
Speaker 1: he said to the officer, and that he knew who
32:18
Speaker 1: did it. But he testified that he had tried to recamp.
32:21
Speaker 1: The detectives took him to a room, just like you said,
32:24
Speaker 1: into a room and told them that they would arrest
32:27
Speaker 1: his parents for perjury and he would never see them again, etc.
32:32
Speaker 1: So he agreed to testify at the trials. He was
32:36
Speaker 1: a traumatized kid at that point, and I can't even
32:39
Speaker 1: imagine being in his shoes, much less yours.
32:41
Speaker 3: The court had decided to take a brief recess, and
32:45
Speaker 3: the prosecutor went to the ad bench and they talked
32:47
Speaker 3: to the judge and they took me back into my
32:51
Speaker 3: holding sale and I was in there about a minute,
32:54
Speaker 3: and my lawyers came in and said, Rick, they got
32:58
Speaker 3: a proposition for you. They said, if you plead guilty
33:02
Speaker 3: right now to all the charges, they'll consider sitting served
33:07
Speaker 3: and you can go home today. And we got to
33:10
Speaker 3: have a decision right now. I mean, nothing in the
33:14
Speaker 3: courtroom was guaranteed. This was guaranteed. You know, plead guilty
33:21
Speaker 3: and you can go home today. But you're gonna live
33:24
Speaker 3: your life as a convicted murderer. It only took a
33:27
Speaker 3: few seconds when I told my lawyers, like, you know what, man,
33:31
Speaker 3: I'm innocent, and it came too far at this point,
33:35
Speaker 3: I ain't got nothing to lose. I'm gonna stay with
33:38
Speaker 3: the hand I was deal. We went out there, We
33:40
Speaker 3: went back out in the courtroom and proceeded with the proceedings,
33:43
Speaker 3: and after most of the testimony, the pertinent testimony, the
33:48
Speaker 3: prosecution once again went to the bench and I heard
33:53
Speaker 3: the judge say are you sure in a whispery tone,
33:57
Speaker 3: and the lady nodded, and they went back to their
33:59
Speaker 3: pspect the benches, and the judge.
34:02
Speaker 2: Asked me to rise.
34:04
Speaker 3: He said that the state was not going to you know,
34:08
Speaker 3: they weren't going to pursue me anymore. In other words,
34:10
Speaker 3: they weren't going to try to prosecute me anymore. They
34:13
Speaker 3: really believed that was innocent, you know, And it was
34:18
Speaker 3: just as simple man. After all that.
34:20
Speaker 2: It was just as simple man.
34:21
Speaker 1: So Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Timothy McGuinty said, and this is
34:25
Speaker 1: very powerful, he said, quote the state concedes the obvious. Wow.
34:31
Speaker 1: McGonagall dured the hearing, granted motions for the new trial
34:34
Speaker 1: filed by you and Wiley, and vacated your convictions. Ronnie's
34:38
Speaker 1: conviction would later be vacated as well. The prosecution then
34:41
Speaker 1: dismissed the charts and you were released after thirty nine years,
34:45
Speaker 1: three months, and nine days, and would you say four
34:48
Speaker 1: hours on top of that, And at that time you
34:50
Speaker 1: were the longest serving defendant exonerated in US history. We
34:55
Speaker 1: know that there are others who served longer that we
34:56
Speaker 1: never heard their names because they were never freed. But this,
35:00
Speaker 1: this is the flip side, now, right, This is the
35:02
Speaker 1: good part. This is a good stuff. This is what
35:04
Speaker 1: I live for, right, So tell us about that moment
35:07
Speaker 1: when you were finally vindicated and released and walked out
35:13
Speaker 1: into the first free ara you had breathed in almost
35:18
Speaker 1: forty years.
35:20
Speaker 3: I guess that's one of the quirky things about all
35:22
Speaker 3: of that. You know, it's just saying those simple words guilty, innocent,
35:26
Speaker 3: Just those simple words, man. But it took so much
35:31
Speaker 3: and so much time to get to that point. Honestly,
35:36
Speaker 3: I was kind of subdued because I was tired. I
35:41
Speaker 3: was tired. But at the same time, I was grateful
35:44
Speaker 3: because I made it through the ordeal, and I feel
35:49
Speaker 3: like I was stronger than they were. But it was
35:52
Speaker 3: more tremendous relief than actual glee and happiness.
35:57
Speaker 2: You know. It's just like, man, it's nice to be
36:00
Speaker 2: able to breathe again.
36:01
Speaker 1: You know.
36:02
Speaker 2: It was a great moment. Man. Everything after that was
36:05
Speaker 2: like I was on cloud nine. You know. It was
36:08
Speaker 2: just a great relief man, to be free. You know.
36:13
Speaker 1: So, ultimately all three of you guys were compensated. I
36:17
Speaker 1: wish I could say that for most of the people
36:19
Speaker 1: that are on our show.
36:20
Speaker 2: Yes, and it's a real tragedy. Man.
36:22
Speaker 1: It should be automatic. It should be you walk out
36:25
Speaker 1: of prison with an apology and a big check and
36:29
Speaker 1: a chance to start your life anew. But even the
36:31
Speaker 1: people who do get compensated normally have to wait years,
36:35
Speaker 1: typically have to wait years.
36:36
Speaker 2: I can attest to that.
36:37
Speaker 1: Trust me, and now, luckily, thankfully, you have been compensated.
36:42
Speaker 1: There's no amount of money that would be enough, but
36:44
Speaker 1: it does give you the freedom to be able to
36:47
Speaker 1: live out your days in relative comfort.
36:50
Speaker 3: I'm sixty five now, you know, and I've been fortunate
36:55
Speaker 3: enough to be surrounded by people who have given me
36:58
Speaker 3: so much, you know, helped me navigate the world that
37:03
Speaker 3: I've been absent from for thirty nine years.
37:05
Speaker 2: And you know, trust me.
37:07
Speaker 3: Man, if I didn't have to help, man, I'm still
37:09
Speaker 3: lost today. I've been out here for almost six years now,
37:12
Speaker 3: and I'm still kind of lost compared to what a
37:16
Speaker 3: lot of guys got it.
37:17
Speaker 2: Man.
37:17
Speaker 3: I had it. I had it easy. Man, I cannot lie.
37:21
Speaker 3: This is a social problem. This is our society, This
37:24
Speaker 3: is our America.
37:25
Speaker 2: You know.
37:26
Speaker 3: When I became an exignery, always before that, I always
37:30
Speaker 3: thought it was black people because that's all I ever
37:32
Speaker 3: saw black people.
37:33
Speaker 2: On TV getting exonerated.
37:35
Speaker 3: But my first Exigonnery conference after I got out of prison,
37:39
Speaker 3: I saw people from all manner of life. They have
37:44
Speaker 3: an innocence project in Hawaii, and that boggles my mind.
37:48
Speaker 3: I've been to Hawaii. It's paradise. Why would you need
37:51
Speaker 3: an innocent project over there?
37:53
Speaker 2: But it just.
37:54
Speaker 3: Brings back home that we need it everywhere, you know,
38:00
Speaker 3: because justice isn't perfect anywhere. And it just opened my
38:06
Speaker 3: perspective upon like, man, this just isn't an inner city
38:10
Speaker 3: black problem. This is an America world problem, you know.
38:16
Speaker 3: But there's a lot of stuff you can overcome, man,
38:18
Speaker 3: you know. And I'm living a great life right now,
38:22
Speaker 3: and I try to live my life and an example
38:26
Speaker 3: of what it can be like I mean and out
38:28
Speaker 3: of perfect life now, but I'm living a life that
38:31
Speaker 3: I love and the life that I usually dream about
38:34
Speaker 3: in my prison cell every night, every night, you know, now.
38:39
Speaker 1: Ricky, without further ado, the best part of the show
38:44
Speaker 1: is the same every week. It's called closing Arguments, and
38:47
Speaker 1: it's the part of the show where I first of all,
38:50
Speaker 1: thank you again. I'm going to turn my microphone off,
38:53
Speaker 1: kick back of my chair with my eyes closed and
38:55
Speaker 1: my headphones on, and just listen to anything else you
38:58
Speaker 1: want to share my journey.
39:01
Speaker 2: You know.
39:02
Speaker 3: I know a lot of people say I don't know
39:04
Speaker 3: how you so calm, cool and collected, but you need
39:09
Speaker 3: it to be there to understand why I am the
39:11
Speaker 3: type of person I am today forgiving understanding. Yes, I
39:16
Speaker 3: get mad sometimes when I think about I just had
39:20
Speaker 3: a baby two years ago, my butt, my daughter's about
39:23
Speaker 3: to turn to my first child. I think about all
39:26
Speaker 3: the time that I'm not going to have with her,
39:30
Speaker 3: and I kick myself in the butt for that, because
39:33
Speaker 3: I need to be thinking about the time I do
39:35
Speaker 3: have with her. But sometimes those thoughts creep in, Like
39:39
Speaker 3: my mother died while I was in prison, you know, And.
39:42
Speaker 2: It's just stuff like that.
39:44
Speaker 3: You know, it's okay to reminisce about the time you lost,
39:47
Speaker 3: but you can't get caught up in it. You know,
39:50
Speaker 3: you can't get caught up in it. You have to
39:53
Speaker 3: appreciate what you have right now. And that's what I'm doing.
39:57
Speaker 3: I have a beautiful wife. I have three knucklehead step
40:01
Speaker 3: children and lovely the daughter me and my wife had together.
40:05
Speaker 3: We got three dogs, we have a beautiful home, and
40:08
Speaker 3: I'm blessed.
40:09
Speaker 1: Man.
40:10
Speaker 3: You know, the easiest thing to do is to be
40:12
Speaker 3: angry and bitter. You know, I'd rather be happy and
40:16
Speaker 3: get out there and try to change the system. Channel
40:19
Speaker 3: that anger and bitterness and resentment into doing something. Man,
40:23
Speaker 3: Get out there and help somebody because somebody helped me,
40:27
Speaker 3: you know, And I'd be a complete asshole if I
40:30
Speaker 3: will just sit here and then't try to help anybody else.
40:39
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to
40:42
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wartis,
40:46
Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production
40:50
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
40:53
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
40:57
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at
41:01
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On
41:04
Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both
41:07
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason flam Ravil. Conviction is
41:11
Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with
41:14
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one