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It’s National Roundabouts Week. Who knew? · Talking Michigan Transportation

• 0:07
  Jeff Cranson: Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast.
• 0:10
  Jeff Cranson: I'm Jeff Cranson.
• 0:12
  Jeff Cranson: You may not know it, but the Federal Highway Administration has designated this week, September 21st through the 25th, as National Roundabouts Week.
• 0:24
  Jeff Cranson: The Federal Highway Administration has actually been doing that since 2018.
• 0:29
  Jeff Cranson: So I thought that was a good reason to talk to Garrett Daw, who is MDOT's engineer of traffic safety.
• 0:37
  Jeff Cranson: And he had a lot of really good things to say about this topic, and mostly how it's transformed people's driving and been a net benefit in terms of safety and reducing crashes, especially serious crashes.
• 0:52
  Jeff Cranson: We've kind of evolved from talking to skeptics and trying to defend where roundabouts are installed to now having to answer questions from people who want more of them.
• 1:03
  Jeff Cranson: And like everything in a challenging funding environment, uh it's just not possible to install them everywhere all at once.
• 1:11
  Jeff Cranson: But it's important to know that Federal Highway Administration says roundabouts reduce intersection crashes, resulting in death or injury by an average of 82%.
• 1:21
  Jeff Cranson: That's a pretty whopping number.
• 1:22
  Jeff Cranson: And they can also reduce traffic delays.
• 1:25
  Jeff Cranson: And one of the other big benefits is they reduce idling.
• 1:28
  Jeff Cranson: So they're better for the environment and they're better for everyone's carbon footprint.
• 1:32
  Jeff Cranson: So I hope you enjoy the conversation with Garrett.
• 1:35
  Jeff Cranson: So Garrett Daw, traffic safety engineer at the Department of Transportation in Michigan.
• 1:41
  Jeff Cranson: And I should note that there are several people involved in traffic safety, but his role is statewide traffic safety engineer, which probably sounds a lot more complicated.
• 1:53
  Jeff Cranson: I should actually say it probably doesn't sound as complicated as it really is.
• 1:57
  Jeff Cranson: He's dealing every day with requests around the state for speed limit changes, adjustments for school zones, things like intersections, traffic lights.
• 2:09
  Jeff Cranson: And this is where Garrett will tell you that a traffic light is not a safety device, it's a traffic control device.
• 2:15
  Jeff Cranson: And then, of course, when it comes to intersections, roundabouts, which is what I wanted to talk about this week, as I mentioned in the introduction, the Federal Highway Administration has designated September 21st through 25th in 2026 as National Roundabouts Week.
• 2:30
  Jeff Cranson: They've actually been doing that since 2018.
• 2:33
  Jeff Cranson: And the thing, Garrett, that amazes me about this is that uh when I started in the department, we were often having to defend roundabouts and going to public meetings and dealing with a lot of complaints uh on social media.
• 2:46
  Jeff Cranson: And now we're we're more often um having people ask for them.
• 2:51
  Jeff Cranson: Is is that your experience?
• 2:53
  Garret Dawe: Yeah, I would say more often than not these days.
• 2:57
  Garret Dawe: And and thanks for having me, Jeff.
• 2:58
  Garret Dawe: I appreciate being here.
• 3:00
  Garret Dawe: Um, but yeah, I I would say, and probably it's because roundabouts have been around for a while.
• 3:05
  Garret Dawe: I think Michigan started installing them maybe in the in the 90s on a more um, you know, more often.
• 3:13
  Garret Dawe: And so probably been around for 30 years or so.
• 3:16
  Garret Dawe: So it's it would be rare for a someone who drives in Michigan not to have driven through a roundabout or many roundabouts or a roundabout every day.
• 3:25
  Garret Dawe: Um, and probably just are seeing firsthand now the the benefits of them from a safety and an operational perspective.
• 3:31
  Garret Dawe: And yeah, less likely to be concerned about a new one going in these days.
• 3:37
  Jeff Cranson: Oftentimes it's uh an intersection that might involve a state route intersecting with a local road and and the locals, uh local community.
• 3:47
  Jeff Cranson: I know uh city of Walker, suburb of Grand Rapids, requested help with one a few years back, and you get that in other places.
• 3:54
  Jeff Cranson: And uh the department's always happy to cooperate if it fits the the criteria.
• 4:00
  Jeff Cranson: Does that surprise you, even in the I guess the more conservative areas of the state, how they've come to embrace them?
• 4:06
  Garret Dawe: If you'd asked me that question 20 years ago, I'd say yes, that probably would have surprised me.
• 4:11
  Garret Dawe: My experience with roundabouts or or proposing them, it was usually met with a lot of opposition because it was new.
• 4:18
  Garret Dawe: There was just apprehension from from folks, especially in those conservative areas, as you mentioned, where you know change is is um scrutinized a little bit more.
• 4:26
  Garret Dawe: But but these days, no, that doesn't surprise me at all again, because I think the their um their benefits have just been proven in in everyday driving for most people.
• 4:36
  Jeff Cranson: So if you're talking to somebody, you know, family, friend, uh on a weekend and the the topic comes up um without getting too deep into the stats of which there are many, do you just start out by explaining that yeah, the the they don't prevent crashes, but the crashes that you have are very likely to not involve serious injury or death.
• 5:00
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, it's is is it that simple?
• 5:02
  Garret Dawe: Absolutely.
• 5:03
  Garret Dawe: Yes.
• 5:03
  Garret Dawe: That I use that probably most often in when I'm when I'm talking to folks, whether it's family and friends or or just the general public about the benefits of roundabouts is yeah, you may, upon initial installation, you may actually see an uptick um in property damage-only type crashes, just as folks get used to them.
• 5:23
  Garret Dawe: But the the true benefit is that the fatal and serious injury crashes almost disappear, Jeff.
• 5:30
  Garret Dawe: It it I think we're on somewhere around an 80% crash reduction factor nationwide uh for fatal and serious injury crashes um when you install a roundabout, and and we've certainly seen that come to fruition in in Michigan.
• 5:44
  Garret Dawe: So to me, as a safety engineer, that is the absolute number one reason to install roundabouts and to promote their utilization.
• 5:53
  Garret Dawe: Is it's right in line with our toward zero deaths and safe system approach themes here at MDOT, is it it's hard to find a better tool to achieve that.
• 6:04
  Jeff Cranson: So one of the things I still hear about, uh especially in in urban areas in the the city of Grand Rapids has been very aggressive about installing roundabouts on local streets over the last uh, I don't know, 15, 20 years, uh, is pedestrian safety.
• 6:18
  Jeff Cranson: Have we have we evolved on that front?
• 6:20
  Jeff Cranson: Have we figured out some things to make them, you know, both safe for the the vehicles and the pedestrians?
• 6:26
  Jeff Cranson: I think so.
• 6:27
  Garret Dawe: Um, you know, I think the fact that roundabouts reduce vehicle speeds going through an intersection is an inherent and probably obvious uh safety benefit to pedestrians and bicyclists.
• 6:40
  Garret Dawe: But we have learned some things about them over the years that, especially kind of at the exit points of roundabouts where folks maybe want to wanting to speed up and having a crosswalk right at that exit area, can can result in some conflict.
• 6:53
  Garret Dawe: So we we've done some things with um pedestrian hybrid beacons, which are kind of like a traffic signal to give pedestrians a dedicated phase if there's you know frequent pedestrian activity at those locations.
• 7:05
  Garret Dawe: But of course, just basic signing, marking, making sure that we're drawing attention to the fact that pedestrians or bicyclists may be crossing at these locations as you're approaching or exiting a roundabout, I think has probably done a lot of benefit.
• 7:20
  Garret Dawe: And while it's a concern, it's still not something that comes up very frequently in terms of us looking at crash reports or crash histories.
• 7:28
  Garret Dawe: Um, it's it's really not a big concern on our end at this point.
• 7:33
  Jeff Cranson: You hit on a key point, and I've heard others make mention of that too, and I wonder what you could extrapolate from that.
• 7:38
  Jeff Cranson: Uh for other applications, the fact that a roundabout kind of forces you to pay attention.
• 7:45
  Jeff Cranson: You can't be looking at your phone, you can't be yeah, focused on other distractions.
• 7:49
  Jeff Cranson: Inherently, you have to slow down.
• 7:51
  Jeff Cranson: So, I mean, what does that tell us about uh overall behavior on the roads?
• 7:57
  Garret Dawe: Right.
• 7:57
  Garret Dawe: And I think that's uh you know a big reason for the apprehension, too, is folks can be worried about being confused or feeling uncomfortable approaching or going through a roundabout.
• 8:07
  Garret Dawe: But from a traffic engineering standpoint, that's not something that we should be afraid of doing, making a driver feel less comfortable.
• 8:15
  Garret Dawe: Um, because what does a driver do when they're not feeling so comfortable?
• 8:18
  Garret Dawe: They tend to put both hands on the wheel, their their attention goes to the road, they're watching for for pedestrians or other uh vehicle conflicts.
• 8:26
  Garret Dawe: And um, yeah, they tend to be safer drivers in those situations.
• 8:30
  Garret Dawe: Now we don't want to go too far with it and make them feel unsafe, right?
• 8:34
  Garret Dawe: But making a driver feeling on feel uncomfortable is not something that we should be afraid of.
• 8:39
  Garret Dawe: And I think roundabouts are a good example of that and why they have such a safety benefit.
• 8:45
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, a friend of mine from the Northeast, um Boston was doing this, they called them rotaries there, uh, long before they made their way into Midwestern uh intersections.
• 8:57
  Jeff Cranson: And uh he used to say that the number one thing to know is don't make eye contact.
• 9:02
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, that's good advice, I'd say.
• 9:05
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah.
• 9:06
  Jeff Cranson: Um so going forward, I mean, when like everything uh with limited resources and a decades-long funding crisis for transportation, um, how often do you or have to work with the the regions on a request and just have to say, you know, no, we really just can't afford to do that right now.
• 9:28
  Jeff Cranson: Even if we know overall, once you do that, it's probably going to be less costly to maintain than a signalized intersection.
• 9:36
  Garret Dawe: Unfortunately, too off or more often than I would like.
• 9:38
  Garret Dawe: Um, roundabouts are a more expensive solution.
• 9:41
  Garret Dawe: Uh, they're one of the more expensive tools in our toolbox.
• 9:44
  Garret Dawe: So modern roundabouts these days, at least on the MDOT side of things, when we tend to install them, they're in the three and a half to four million dollar range, um, which can be pricey.
• 9:55
  Garret Dawe: And sometimes we don't have budgets that support that amount.
• 9:58
  Garret Dawe: So we're we're either having to try to combine funding sources or going with a different, more interim solution, I guess, until we can find those funds.
• 10:08
  Garret Dawe: But that's an interesting point because we've been having recent discussions within the department and exploring alternative roundabout designs or even materials that could potentially lower those costs without sacrificing the safety benefit that comes from them.
• 10:26
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, so I I think that you you hit on a key point that if it's the department and you're doing them on trunk lines, then they inherently need to be bigger.
• 10:35
  Jeff Cranson: Locals can do them with a smaller footprint for the most part.
• 10:39
  Jeff Cranson: And talk about why that is.
• 10:41
  Garret Dawe: Right.
• 10:41
  Garret Dawe: That has a lot to do with um the amount of commercial traffic or large trucks that might be traveling through roundabouts.
• 10:49
  Garret Dawe: So, you know, if you've got an intersection that's carrying a lot of truck traffic, it's probably going to be bigger just so they can navigate it.
• 10:56
  Garret Dawe: Although I will say that the truck apron on the inside of the roundabout circle that you see, that kind of that 10-foot swath of slightly raised pavement, is intended for uh truck trailers to drive across in order to navigate those turns.
• 11:11
  Garret Dawe: But even on trunk lines, there may be alternatives with smaller designs and maybe a center island that's entirely mountable like that to still achieve a roundabout at not quite the cost that we're used to.
• 11:24
  Garret Dawe: But that that's very dependent on the specifics of a of a given intersection, the amount of traffic going through it, the geometry leading up to it, et cetera.
• 11:33
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, I think that's highly misunderstood.
• 11:35
  Jeff Cranson: Jesse Ball, MNETS social media coordinator, has pointed out more than once on a video or a still photo that shows the truck trailer going up on that apron, that that's the right thing to do.
• 11:46
  Jeff Cranson: But I I think a lot of people, uh, general citizen sees that and and thinks that they've left the traffic lane.
• 11:54
  Jeff Cranson: Um, so there's an education process there.
• 11:56
  Garret Dawe: We've made a mistake in our design, and and um, you know, now they're having to drive on the sidewalk essentially is kind of the impression.
• 12:04
  Garret Dawe: But no, that's exactly what that's there for, um, is for those trucks to to ride up on it to make their turns.
• 12:10
  Jeff Cranson: Please stay tuned.
• 12:11
  Jeff Cranson: We'll be back with more talking Michigan transportation right after this.
• 12:17
  MDOT Message: Roundabouts keep traffic moving, but they work best when everyone follows the same simple rules.
• 12:23
  MDOT Message: Slow down as you approach, yield to traffic already in the roundabout, and don't stop once you're inside unless it's necessary.
• 12:30
  MDOT Message: Use your turn signal as you exit so others know your plan.
• 12:35
  MDOT Message: A little courtesy goes a long way in keeping everyone moving safely.
• 12:41
  Jeff Cranson: So um when you think about the the stats, the reduction in injuries and the reduction in and all crashes and the the slower speeds, um, it just it seems like a a no-brainer.
• 12:54
  Jeff Cranson: Um what would you say is something to consider and why they they don't necessarily work in all applications?
• 13:03
  Garret Dawe: Right.
• 13:03
  Garret Dawe: Well, I think, you know, and like many solutions, there's a there's a cap, there's a threshold of you know the amount of traffic that you may be trying to move through an intersection to where a roundabout no longer is feasible.
• 13:15
  Garret Dawe: Uh our most recent research found that once we get beyond a two-lane roundabout, once you get into a three-lane roundabout situation, some of those operational and safety benefits aren't as strong because it's just very complicated.
• 13:29
  Garret Dawe: There's a lot of traffic trying to move through it.
• 13:32
  Garret Dawe: Um, so we've kind of taken the position of if we have to go beyond two lanes, we're probably looking at a different solution other than a roundabout.
• 13:40
  Garret Dawe: So they're not for every single intersection, but many intersections, they're they're a very viable solution, and they're probably most beneficial in areas where you're trying to transition vehicles from high speed to maybe a lower speed environment.
• 13:56
  Garret Dawe: So that first primary intersection coming into a town or coming into a city, those are often excellent locations to consider roundabouts.
• 14:04
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, so when you mentioned that uh that number of lanes, I definitely get that when that becomes complicated, especially if you just get beyond two.
• 14:12
  Jeff Cranson: But also it's about uh the distance between them.
• 14:15
  Jeff Cranson: I think I I know a lot of people have, and again, it's a learning curve.
• 14:19
  Jeff Cranson: Once you get used to it, maybe it's not so bad, but uh there are some uh across the state where there are two uh consecutive ones that are pretty close together, and that tends to lead to extra confusion.
• 14:30
  Jeff Cranson: So is there a is there kind of a general guideline on that?
• 14:34
  Garret Dawe: I wouldn't say there's a guideline.
• 14:35
  Garret Dawe: I'd say that yes, there's certainly extra confusion uh that's probably added when they're directly adjacent to one another.
• 14:43
  Garret Dawe: And it can be difficult to sign and mark those situations as well to provide good guidance to drivers.
• 14:49
  Garret Dawe: Um, probably other situations where they wouldn't make sense as you know, plugging one or replacing one traffic signal within a corridor that's got several signals.
• 14:58
  Garret Dawe: Sometimes that's probably not the best utilization of them either.
• 15:02
  Garret Dawe: Um, but as far as spacing goes, you know, probably the further apart they are, the the the better.
• 15:08
  Garret Dawe: Um, but we we often see them, you know, at either side of a of a freeway interchange, and that spacing certainly is usually sufficient.
• 15:16
  Jeff Cranson: So how how do you figure out the the signs for things like that?
• 15:20
  Jeff Cranson: Because what seems very logical to one person isn't necessarily to somebody else, and you can't focus group all these things, but everybody thinks differently, right?
• 15:29
  Jeff Cranson: Some people think very visually and some people think uh intuitively.
• 15:33
  Jeff Cranson: So sometimes you probably go with signs and then later have to make changes.
• 15:38
  Jeff Cranson: Uh, how do you kind of monitor that and and make adjustments?
• 15:41
  Jeff Cranson: Right.
• 15:42
  Garret Dawe: Well, our I mean, our initial signing applications are usually based on nationally accepted standards like the the manual and uniform traffic control devices, provides us a lot of guidance on how to sign for them.
• 15:54
  Garret Dawe: Um, but every situation is a little bit different, and it depends, you know, if you have multiple lanes or just one lane, um, to where how much you want to emphasize the pavement marking aspect of it versus versus signing of them.
• 16:07
  Garret Dawe: So it's very specific on the individual intersection that you're that you're going with.
• 16:13
  Garret Dawe: But in general, you're going to see, you know, in a multi-lane approach, you're going to see signs that tell you which lane you should be in, uh, depending on what your destination is as you approach, to encourage you to be in that lane before entering the roundabout.
• 16:26
  Garret Dawe: Of course, you're going to see yield signs and pavement markings and any um pedestrian warning or or crosswalk pavement markings as you approach as well.
• 16:35
  Garret Dawe: So it they're all very important features, especially into the multi-lane roundabout situations, but unique to every situation as well.
• 16:43
  Jeff Cranson: So before you became the statewide traffic safety engineer, um you were in the north region, which is uh, you know, the northern half of the lower peninsula, vast region geographically, several counties.
• 16:57
  Jeff Cranson: But can you think of what you consider some successes where uh you know a roundabout was installed?
• 17:03
  Jeff Cranson: I I think the the new one at in Traver City at M22 and M72, for instance, has been a has been a big success.
• 17:10
  Jeff Cranson: Are there others?
• 17:11
  Garret Dawe: Yeah, the the probably the first one I was involved with was in Misich, Michigan, at the intersection of M115 and M37.
• 17:19
  Garret Dawe: And that was a location that is an intersection that had significant operational challenges, especially in the summer months, uh, with traffic going to and from Traver City from Grand Rapids areas, for example, um, but also a significant safety issue with because it was just a two-way stop-controlled intersection before the roundabout ends.
• 17:39
  Garret Dawe: So I remember when that one went in, um, the operational and safety benefits that we saw immediately were were eye-opening and probably an example of a big reason that I was kind of hook line and sinker bought into to roundabouts.
• 17:53
  Garret Dawe: That would be a good example.
• 17:55
  Garret Dawe: There was also one in uh US- 131 in the Fife Lake area that was installed after a few tragic crashes occurred at that intersection, and and since has really resolved that issue as well.
• 18:07
  Garret Dawe: So that those would be two that jump jump right into my mind.
• 18:11
  Garret Dawe: Yeah, that one's previous position.
• 18:14
  Jeff Cranson: That one, especially in Fife Lake, I think is is been a great success.
• 18:18
  Jeff Cranson: But we did get pushback, I heard from a former lawmaker, former Senate majority leader, as a matter of fact, about it.
• 18:26
  Jeff Cranson: And uh I guess you know, he travels through there a lot uh on his way north and just thought it was gonna be one more thing to slow you down because it's not far from where the freeway ends, and you go back to Toon Lane and just you know, you're just thinking that okay, I'm gonna get slowed down now.
• 18:41
  Jeff Cranson: I've I've been on a freeway for you know 80, 90 miles, and then this happens, but it's it's worked out really well.
• 18:48
  Jeff Cranson: And the same with uh the one you talked about at M-37 and M-115.
• 18:51
  Jeff Cranson: There was skepticism about that.
• 18:53
  Jeff Cranson: There were people that were thinking, you know, no way, that's not gonna work.
• 18:56
  Jeff Cranson: And uh I agree, I I go through there often and it's worked out really well.
• 19:00
  Garret Dawe: Yeah, that's usually the case when we get pushback uh uh you know before putting them in, that that that feedback usually kind of goes away and it's replaced with with compliments.
• 19:08
  Garret Dawe: Not always, but most often.
• 19:11
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, so uh what else have you learned in your job now?
• 19:14
  Jeff Cranson: How long has it been?
• 19:15
  Jeff Cranson: In uh two years, three years?
• 19:16
  Jeff Cranson: I can't remember.
• 19:17
  Garret Dawe: Um just over two and a half years, I think.
• 19:20
  Jeff Cranson: Okay.
• 19:20
  Jeff Cranson: So what what what have what has surprised you and where are you finding your satisfaction?
• 19:27
  Garret Dawe: Oh geez, that's a that's a tough question.
• 19:30
  Garret Dawe: I would say um certainly the the experience getting out beyond just uh my previous position, which was just north region, and kind of interacting in a more of a rural environment.
• 19:42
  Garret Dawe: It's been very interesting for me to interact with our other six regions um and and learn of the unique challenges that that they have as well, especially in the in a vulnerable road user environment.
• 19:54
  Garret Dawe: Um more of those urban environments as well.
• 19:58
  Garret Dawe: That was something that was a little bit foreign to me previously.
• 20:01
  Garret Dawe: Um so that's been an interesting aspect of traffic and safety that's um certainly new in my role.
• 20:08
  Garret Dawe: I would say also too, just the the manner in which we select uh safety projects and how we prioritize where we assign our safety funding.
• 20:18
  Garret Dawe: We've we've made some modifications over the last couple of years to be much more proactive in that area.
• 20:24
  Garret Dawe: And I would say that's probably the thing I'm most proud of at this point in in uh my two and a half years in the role is getting into a more proactive environment with traffic safety versus just reacting to where where bad things have happened, trying to prevent them from happening in the first place.
• 20:38
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:39
  Jeff Cranson: Well, well said, and I really appreciate that that you're thinking that way and you're trying to bring some foresight to this.
• 20:45
  Jeff Cranson: And I'm glad also that you mentioned the vulnerable road users because we've got some legislation working its way through right now that I think could have some really positive effects down the road.
• 20:55
  Jeff Cranson: So those are all good things.
• 20:57
  Jeff Cranson: Garrett, thank you as always for for talking about this.
• 21:01
  Jeff Cranson: I uh wasn't sure how you were celebrating National Roundabout Week, so I thought I should you know get in touch.
• 21:06
  Jeff Cranson: We could talk about it.
• 21:07
  Garret Dawe: I appreciate you letting me know it was roundabout or national roundabout week, so now I'm celebrating.
• 21:11
  unknown: Thanks.
• 21:12
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, now you can put it on your calendar every year.
• 21:14
  Jeff Cranson: Well, thanks, Garrett.
• 21:16
  Jeff Cranson: I appreciate you taking time to talk about this.
• 21:18
  Jeff Cranson: Thank you.
• 21:19
  Jeff Cranson: My pleasure.
• 21:19
  Jeff Cranson: Like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Machine Transportation.
• 21:23
  Jeff Cranson: You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Bust Route.
• 21:28
  Jeff Cranson: I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Deviler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who poops the content, and Jackie Stelinas, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.