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Pastors' Perspective-10/19/26 · Pastors Perspective

• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: to call us today to ask your questions about the Bible,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: the Christian faith, just about anything that's on your mind.
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  Speaker 1: My name is Brian Perez, thank you so much for watching.
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  Speaker 1: And listening, yes, you can watch on Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram.
• 0:37
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  Speaker 1: hear from you guys. But, uh, if you have a question,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: call in. You've got an hour to do so. And
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  Speaker 1: today we've got Mike Chattick, the senior pastor of Image
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  Speaker 1: Church in
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  Speaker 1: San Juan Capistrano, how are you doing, Mike?
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  Speaker 2: I
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  Speaker 2: am doing great. Great to be here, Brian. Good to
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  Speaker 2: be
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  Speaker 1: here. Good to have you here, I should
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  Speaker 1: say. It is good to be here
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  Speaker 2: too.
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  Speaker 1: You feel the same way. Yes.
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  Speaker 1: Aaron Hale joins us too. He is the pastor of
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  Speaker 1: Calvary Chapel Foothill Ranch in Lake Forest. Aaron, good to
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  Speaker 1: have you here again. Great to be here, Brian. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: we're ready to talk to you folks at 888-564-6173. You
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• 1:45
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  Speaker 1: get them today. So if you have a question today,
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  Speaker 1: right now, call in 888-564-6173. Let's go right to the phones,
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  Speaker 1: why not? Beginning with Natalie in Las Vegas, who is
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  Speaker 1: listening to us on the K-Wave app. Thank you, Natalie,
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  Speaker 1: for downloading the KWave app and for calling in today.
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  Speaker 1: What's your question?
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  Speaker 1: Um, I was watching. First of all, thank you guys
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  Speaker 1: for doing this. I love this. Been listening forever. Thank you, Natalie.
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  Speaker 1: And come from Mission Viejo, so not too far from
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  Speaker 1: Foothill Ranch, right down the street. Anyways, yeah, anyways, and
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  Speaker 1: thank you, Brian. Uh, I know that sometimes you don't
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  Speaker 1: get enough praise.
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  Speaker 1: I praise myself all the time, so that, that I
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  Speaker 1: do get plenty of praise. I always pat myself on
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  Speaker 1: the back and no, I'm joking. Well, I always try
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  Speaker 1: to stay humble that the Lord allows, I always say
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  Speaker 1: that the Lord allows us to humbly both in the
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  Speaker 1: right parameters. So there we go. Anyways, um, my question is, um.
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  Speaker 1: I was watching a scene from The Chosen.
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  Speaker 1: And it showed the valley like it was doing like
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  Speaker 1: the valley of dry bones.
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  Speaker 1: And I know it comes from Ezekiel 37.
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  Speaker 1: But can you just give me some quick like I'm
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  Speaker 1: trying to learn better because I struggle with retaining things.
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  Speaker 1: And so I'm just trying to get a better understanding
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  Speaker 1: of what that was about and was it, did it
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  Speaker 1: have anything to do with Elijah or Elijah, like I,
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  Speaker 1: I'm a little bit confused, so if you wouldn't mind elaborating.
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  Speaker 1: So did you guys see this episode? Did either of
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  Speaker 1: you see this episode?
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  Speaker 2: I did not. I'm one of the few that's never
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  Speaker 2: watched The Chosen, to be honest.
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  Speaker 1: I've
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  Speaker 1: watched the first couple of seasons, I think.
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  Speaker 2: All right, so Aaron is the resident chosen X.
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  Speaker 1: Basically, it just shows, it basically just shows the valley
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  Speaker 1: of dry bones and the Lord walking through it. And
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  Speaker 1: I just wanted to get an understanding better for just
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  Speaker 1: for learning purposes and even not even based on the chosen,
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  Speaker 1: just based on that passage of scripture, just. So like
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  Speaker 1: what is the valley of dry bones? What is the
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  Speaker 1: whole uh reason for that passage in Ezekiel? Is it
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  Speaker 1: And like just what is it about? What is it,
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  Speaker 1: I know it's referencing Israel and about like the exile,
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  Speaker 1: but is there, I don't know, whatever you have to
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  Speaker 1: go on, like whatever you can throw out to me
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  Speaker 1: just to educate me.
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  Speaker 1: All right.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean, uh, again, I can't speak to the,
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  Speaker 2: the chosen and exactly what their interpretation is there, but
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  Speaker 2: as far as the scripture is concerned,
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  Speaker 2: Ezekiel is what we call an exilic prophet. So when
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  Speaker 2: you're reading the prophets, one of the things you can
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  Speaker 2: always always ask yourself interpretively is, is this a pre-exilic prophet,
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  Speaker 2: an exilic prophet, or a post-exilic prophet that kind of
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  Speaker 2: gives you major historical redemptive context. What's going on? What
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  Speaker 2: are they speaking to? What is God speaking to this
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  Speaker 2: prophet about? And so Ezekiel is in that middle group.
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  Speaker 2: He's an exilic prophet. So at this time, Israel is
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  Speaker 2: captive in Babylon.
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  Speaker 2: Um, they've been decimated. They've lost their land. They've lost
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  Speaker 2: their temple. They've seemingly lost everything.
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  Speaker 2: And that's when you get this vision that God gives
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  Speaker 2: Ezekiel in this moment of despair, not just for Ezekiel,
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  Speaker 2: but this would be national despair that the Israelites feel
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  Speaker 2: and God promises, he says, hey, look at this valley
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  Speaker 2: of dry bones. You look at it and there's nothing
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  Speaker 2: to hope for here, right? This is a valley of death,
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  Speaker 2: you know, there was life here, but the bones picture death,
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  Speaker 2: and he says this valley is going to be a
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  Speaker 2: picture of Israel and then in the vision Ezekiel sees
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  Speaker 2: all of a sudden these bones are coming back.
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  Speaker 2: Back to life and the flesh is being renewed and
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  Speaker 2: uh the sinews and everything and giving life to this
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  Speaker 2: valley and it's a picture of both spiritual and national
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  Speaker 2: restoration of Israel in the future. So it's this vision
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  Speaker 2: of hope, some good news for Ezekiel and for the
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  Speaker 2: people of Israel. So basically, while you're in exile, while
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  Speaker 2: everything looks completely hopeless, continue to trust in the Lord
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  Speaker 2: who's gonna be faithful to his promises.
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  Speaker 1: OK.
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  Speaker 1: Aaron, any thoughts? I think Mike's covered that well.
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  Speaker 1: What were you saying, Natalie?
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  Speaker 1: So does it basically mean like the Lord will breathe
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  Speaker 1: new life back into
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  Speaker 1: Like Israel in that regard.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so again, it's remember, so this is, you know,
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  Speaker 2: 500+ years before the time of Christ.
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  Speaker 2: So this is a picture that God is going even
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  Speaker 2: though remember they're not in Israel at this time they're
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  Speaker 2: outside they're in Babylon and what this vision is is
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to bring you back to your land you're
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  Speaker 2: gonna come back to the land of Israel, you're gonna
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  Speaker 2: rebuild your temple and then of course this is, this
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  Speaker 2: is where some people get into differences of opinion about
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  Speaker 2: the details of the vision does it refer to multiple.
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  Speaker 2: Timelines? Is it, is it just national political, um, some
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  Speaker 2: people see, you know, even resurrection, like bodily resurrection. Some
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  Speaker 2: people point to that, but I think certainly what it
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  Speaker 2: has to do with is restoring Israel as a nation,
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  Speaker 2: being brought back to the homeland, rebuilding the temple. And
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  Speaker 2: of course, in Ezekiel and in Jeremiah, you also get
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  Speaker 2: this picture because at the end of the day, the
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  Speaker 2: goal is not just to bring Israel back to the land,
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  Speaker 2: it's to get.
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  Speaker 2: Give them a new heart to take out that heart
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  Speaker 2: of stone and to give them the heart of flesh
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  Speaker 2: because that's the fundamental problem. Israel keeps lapsing over and
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  Speaker 2: over again and in as far as it relies on
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  Speaker 2: Israel's faithfulness to keep the land, they're never gonna be
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  Speaker 2: able to keep it. God's gonna have to actually give
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  Speaker 2: them a new covenant so it points to spiritual uh
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  Speaker 2: return as well.
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  Speaker 1: OK. Does that help you, Natalie? Actually, a valley of dry,
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  Speaker 1: is there actually a valley of dry bones, or should
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  Speaker 1: I not take the clipping or the passage of the chosen?
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  Speaker 1: Too much to, not to heart, but just
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  Speaker 2: Did you see that? No, yeah, so 11 thing I
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  Speaker 2: don't know because, and this is where, um, the, I
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  Speaker 2: think the shows and like people ask my opinion on it, um,
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  Speaker 2: I think it can be helpful and good, so I'm,
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  Speaker 2: I'm not like against it. On the other hand, I
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  Speaker 2: think it can be confusing, um, so if someone's first
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  Speaker 2: exposure to a passage like the one.
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  Speaker 2: Uh, you're referring to is really the chosen. I could
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  Speaker 2: see how, again, uh, Brian just pulled up a, a
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  Speaker 2: little clip and it shows Jesus walking through it. So
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  Speaker 2: that might be a little confusing because, of course, the
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  Speaker 2: passage in Ezekiel was, you know, half a millennia before.
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  Speaker 2: Jesus. So they're doing, it seems like they're doing some
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  Speaker 2: interpretive work there. So that could be putting some images
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  Speaker 2: and timelines and stuff that could actually make it harder
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  Speaker 2: for you to understand what's here. So in that remember,
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  Speaker 2: this is a vision. He's not literally showing him, you know, uh,
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  Speaker 2: an actual historical site. Hey, look, look, they're doing an
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  Speaker 2: archaeological dig. Ezekiel see all these bones? Hey, you know,
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  Speaker 2: he's actually showing him a vision.
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  Speaker 2: So this is not a historical site that he's looking at.
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  Speaker 2: He wants to give him a vision, which is a
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  Speaker 2: picture of something else, of what he's gonna do with Israel.
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  Speaker 1: It's not a historical site that people can visit on
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  Speaker 1: the next trip to Israel that Mike Chattick, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: exactly like, hey, we think we found the valley. You, you're,
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  Speaker 2: you're missing it. This was a vision.
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  Speaker 1: All right, Natalie, thank you for your phone call today
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  Speaker 1: here on Pastor's Perspective at 888-564-6173. Now we'll talk to
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  Speaker 1: Rudy in Baldwin Park. Hey there, Rudy, what's your question today? Hi, pastors.
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  Speaker 1: Hi pastors. How are you? How are you
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  Speaker 2: doing? Good. How are you, Rudy?
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  Speaker 1: Hey Rudy.
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  Speaker 1: Good. Thanks for taking my question. My question is about, um,
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  Speaker 1: when you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior
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  Speaker 1: and receive the Holy Spirit.
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  Speaker 1: It says that we're under grace now, not under the law.
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  Speaker 1: So my question is, when we send, because we do send, um,
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  Speaker 1: it says in Romans 5:13 that since we are no
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  Speaker 1: longer under the law.
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  Speaker 1: Um,
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  Speaker 1: Oops, I think we lost you there, Rudy, because, well, um.
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  Speaker 1: In Romans 5:13, it says sin is not charged against
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  Speaker 1: anyone's account where there is no law. And since we
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  Speaker 1: are under grace, there's no more, no, no law for us, right?
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  Speaker 1: And it because in Romans, um
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  Speaker 1: Romans chapter 8 I believe or chapter 8 I believe
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  Speaker 1: it says, it says um because through through Christ Jesus,
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  Speaker 1: the law of the Spirit, it gives you life, has
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  Speaker 1: set you free from the law of sin and death.
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  Speaker 1: So my question is, um, according to Romans 5:13, if
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  Speaker 1: we sin, does that mean as as Christians it's not
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  Speaker 1: charged or put on our account?
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  Speaker 1: What would you say, Aaron?
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  Speaker 1: We are responsible for our, our sin and choices in
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  Speaker 1: the sense of um needing to repent of that, to
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  Speaker 1: clear that before the Lord. But, but when we place
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  Speaker 1: our faith in Christ, Rudy, our, our sins are, are
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  Speaker 1: washed away past, present and future. It's not as though
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  Speaker 1: when we struggle with sin, we're back under the law.
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  Speaker 1: We're under a new covenant of grace. In fact, the
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  Speaker 1: book of Galatians speaks to that.
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  Speaker 1: A church that was tempted to go back to the law.
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  Speaker 1: And Paul writes to them and he says, are you
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  Speaker 1: so foolish, having begun in the spirit of you now
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  Speaker 1: being made perfect by the flesh. And sometimes we can,
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  Speaker 1: in our failure, misinterpret and think, well, well now because
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  Speaker 1: I've sinned, because I've, I've not been able in my,
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  Speaker 1: in my own strength to walk uprightly before the Lord consistently. I, I,
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  Speaker 1: I'm
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  Speaker 1: I'm outside of God's grace, but, but God's grace is
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  Speaker 1: there for us in those very moments. And, uh, Paul, he,
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  Speaker 1: he speaks to that. I, I actually think Romans 67
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  Speaker 1: and 8 is a beautiful pathway that that takes us
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  Speaker 1: back to the grace of God as Paul writes about
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  Speaker 1: his own struggle against the flesh, the things that I, I,
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  Speaker 1: I want to do, I don't do and what I
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  Speaker 1: don't want to do that I do, and he, he
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  Speaker 1: Speaks to his frustration there in that chapter.
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  Speaker 1: And says, who will deliver me from this body of
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  Speaker 1: death in my struggle against sin. But then in Romans
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  Speaker 1: chapter 8, we, we find that there is no condemnation
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  Speaker 1: for those that are in Christ Jesus who don't walk
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  Speaker 1: according to the spirit. Don't walk rather according to the flesh,
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  Speaker 1: but according to the, the spirit. And I, I think
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  Speaker 1: a commentator from a generation ago spoke of our need
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  Speaker 1: to flee to the 8th of Romans.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, um, I think, you know, sometimes.
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  Speaker 2: Salvation, um, people use the term in different ways. Typically, what,
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  Speaker 2: for example, uh, the reformers, they broke up salvation into
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  Speaker 2: three separate pieces, or not, I shouldn't say separate, distinct justification, sanctification,
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  Speaker 2: and glorification.
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  Speaker 2: And the important thing to say is, how are we justified?
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  Speaker 2: We're justified by grace through faith alone. So once we
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  Speaker 2: are justified, you've placed faith in Christ, you are now
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  Speaker 2: declared in the right. You have a right standing with God.
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  Speaker 2: Now that's how God looks at you, that's how God
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  Speaker 2: treats you. He adopts you into his family, and if
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  Speaker 2: you mess up today, you do not get kicked out
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  Speaker 2: of the family, you do not lose your justification because
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  Speaker 2: that would be justification based on works, but rather by
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  Speaker 2: faith in the gospel, it's the righteous work of Christ
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  Speaker 2: that is imputed to us, so we're in the right.
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  Speaker 2: Insofar as we're talking about sanctification though, because remember God's
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  Speaker 2: the goal in the gospel is not merely, OK, I
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  Speaker 2: wanna declare sinners right through what Christ did he actually
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  Speaker 2: wants to sanctify us and make us more like Jesus.
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  Speaker 2: This is where again some people get accused of actually Paul, uh,
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  Speaker 2: anticipates that he's being falsely accused of saying, oh hey,
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  Speaker 2: you know, let's just live however we wanna live because
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  Speaker 2: of grace. He says, no, that's, that's utterly foolish if
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  Speaker 2: you've truly received and received.
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  Speaker 2: Grace, how could you live in sin any longer? One
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  Speaker 2: of the signs that you have genuine faith that you've
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  Speaker 2: received God's grace is you begin to change and you
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  Speaker 2: live a life of repentance. So for example, like in
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  Speaker 2: First John, if we confess present tense, which means ongoing action,
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  Speaker 2: if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just
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  Speaker 2: to forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. So again,
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  Speaker 2: we're in a right standing with God because of Jesus.
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  Speaker 2: We don't lose that, but why do we.
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  Speaker 2: Then have to confess regularly as John says, because of sanctification.
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  Speaker 2: The goal is we've got to continually grow. God does
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  Speaker 2: not want us to continue in sin any longer. So
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  Speaker 2: on the one hand, salvation is secure through justification that's
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  Speaker 2: received by faith in Christ alone. But then we are
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  Speaker 2: called to cooperate with God, to partner with God in
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  Speaker 2: obeying the, not the law of Moses, but actually as
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  Speaker 2: Paul says in Galatians, the Hanamas to Christu, the law
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  Speaker 2: of Christ.
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  Speaker 1: Does this help you, Rudy?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, those are great answers. I just, yeah, those are
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  Speaker 1: great answers. I appreciate it. I just, yeah, so that
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  Speaker 1: makes me feel like as a Christian, as long as I, uh,
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  Speaker 1: like I said, if I make a mistake, I, I
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  Speaker 1: ask for repentance. I repent and ask for forgiveness. There's
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  Speaker 1: no reason for me to ever feel, um, guilty,
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  Speaker 1: you know what I mean?
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  Speaker 2: Exactly.
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  Speaker 1: sin-wise, you know.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. And I think, you know, for example, where this
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  Speaker 2: is the, the fall season in our church, we kind of,
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  Speaker 2: we do like a celebration of the Reformation.
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  Speaker 2: Uh, every, uh, because, you know, famously on October 31st,
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  Speaker 2: while
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: everybody
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  Speaker 2: else is
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  Speaker 1: celebrating
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  Speaker 2: Halloween, uh, we're celebrating the day that Martin Luther famously
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  Speaker 2: nailed the 95 theses to the door of the Wittenberg Church.
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  Speaker 2: In Germany, and again, one of Luther's things is he's
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  Speaker 2: wrestling with a guilty conscience. Um, he had this great
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  Speaker 2: little line because he was an Augustinian monk. He was
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  Speaker 2: trying zealously to be as right with God as he
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  Speaker 2: possibly could, do everything the Catholic Church told him to do,
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  Speaker 2: you know, do penance, confession, indulgences, like anything you can do.
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  Speaker 2: He even became a monk, and he said if any
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  Speaker 2: monk could have attained heaven through his monkey, it should
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  Speaker 2: have been I, but he was left with this guilty
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  Speaker 2: conscience of, man, you know, even though I'm.
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  Speaker 2: Working hard and I'm trying, I know I'm still not
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  Speaker 2: good enough. And this is when he was driven to
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  Speaker 2: study the New Testament and Romans in particular, some of
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  Speaker 2: the passages we both cited so far, and he realized
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  Speaker 2: what is the answer to this guilty conscience, it really
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  Speaker 2: is the gospel.
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  Speaker 2: It's the gospel of justification by faith. It's no longer
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  Speaker 2: about you and even your guilty conscience. God is greater
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  Speaker 2: than our conscience. Paul even says, so trusting in Christ,
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  Speaker 2: we have a secure grounding we can know that we
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  Speaker 2: are saved.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for calling us, Oh wait, Aaron,
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  Speaker 1: did you wanna add something? Amen. Oh yeah, that's a good,
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  Speaker 1: good thing to add. Rudy, thanks for your phone call. 888-564-6173.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Now we'll talk to Paul in Highland who listens to
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Pastor's perspective on the Kwave app. What's your question for us, Paul?
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Uh, basically it has to do with modern translation since
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: the vines are no longer used in modern translation, mostly, um,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: when the pastors come to a passage like that where
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: there's a singular pronoun talking to, um, uh.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: To an individual that unless the person is pointed is
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: pointed out that that's being done, a person may not
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: know that it's talking to an individual, not a group.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: And then of course there's also cases where the plural pronoun, uh,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: second person pronoun is being used talking to an individual
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: such as Peter when he was being told by Jesus
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: that he was being shifted like wheat by Satan. Uh,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Jesus used the plural pronoun telling Peter this.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: And then it wasn't to the singular when he told
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Jesus said that I pray for you and then it's
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: then it's singular and so and then the similaration happens
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: with Nicodemus.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: where Jesus said, except a man be born again, he
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: cannot see the kingdom of God. He tells Nicodemus that
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: he
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: He uses a plural when you, when you, when he
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: says to Nicodemus, I say unto you, that's singular, except
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: ye must be born again or you must be born again.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: That's the plural being used, and he's telling Nicodemus not
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: just Nicodemus, but everyone needs to be born again. Anyway, the, the,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: the question is, is when you go through verse by
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: verse and you come to these pronouns that they're being
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: pointed out when they're plural or singular talking to an
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: individual or group.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: So are you saying then that like the King James
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: Version will distinguish between uh singular and plural, while the
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: modern translations do not, and does that confuse people nowadays
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: because they're not getting the full picture.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: It can,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: yes.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: OK, is that the question?
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm, I'm so you laid out what a concern was.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: What's the question you're saying?
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: As a pastor going through, do you go to the
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: trouble to point out that whether it's the plural or
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: singular that's being used talking to an individual or a group?
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: Um, I can, yeah. If, if, I mean, I look
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: at the Greek, so.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: If it's singular or plural and it makes a conceptual difference,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: then yeah, I mean it, it does that it does
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: that all the time, you know what I mean? So there's,
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: for example, if, if you look at Greek, I mean
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about New Testament here of course Hebrew and
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: then a little bit of Aramaic in the Old Testament,
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: but there's a ton of things to point out constantly,
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: to be honest with you.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Um, I can point out the, the tenses, the moods,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: you know, the, you know, is it in the indicative?
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: Is it in the air as passive, particip? I mean,
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: I don't sit there and do a, a lecture. Um, uh,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: to be honest, I used to do that, uh, years
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: ago when I was in seminary, and, uh,
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Thank God I have an understanding patient congregation because, um, I,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: I would major on the minors, uh, too often and
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: I think
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: The longer I've been a pastor, again, like if you
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: give me 3 hours to do a lecture, uh, on
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: a Saturday or something, I can give you plurals and
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: singulars all you want and, you know, masculine plurals, but
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: in a Sunday sermon, I think I try to keep
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: the main thing the main thing, and if pointing out
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: a singular or plural, and, and sometimes, by the way,
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: the answer is yes, it, it does make.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Uh, quite a bit of difference. Other times it's a,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: a relatively minor thing, um, then I wouldn't make a
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: point of it unless I believe it actually is making
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: a major contribution to the passage.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Paul.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Uh, your question, I, I.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: I suppose I, I would want to commend you. I
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: think what's behind it and your heart is wanting to
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: see the word preached rightly and, and accurately, and I
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: really can't speak on behalf of other pastors, but we
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: should be seeking to understand.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: In in context, context, what's there, um, unlike Mike, I,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: I don't read the original language. I'm not a scholar
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: in that regards, but we should be digging beneath the
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: surface to understand the full breadth of what's being said
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: and what isn't being said. And sometimes that's relevant, the,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: the language, the pronouns as you've pointed out, and uh
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: sometimes maybe less so. So in terms of the
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: What the, what the main point is, what the main
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: message is, what is it that God is trying to say? We,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: we do want to dig a bit deeper and make
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: sure that we're, we're understanding and, and that's where using
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: language tools is important. That's where referencing good commentaries is
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: helpful to make sure that we're not just coming up
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: with our own ideas, but they're consistent with what
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Um, those that have gone before us that, um, love God,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: love his word, are, are studied, committed to it, that
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: they've come up with something at least similar. And, and
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: in terms of the original language that our, our extrapolation
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: is consistent with what was what was originally intended. So
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Uh, I'd, I'd say it's a great question. Sometimes it's
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: more important than at other moments, um, but, uh, I,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: I hope that's helpful to you, Paul. Now for the
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: average person who doesn't have all the, you know, hasn't
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: studied the original languages or anything, and, and maybe we
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: should all study the original languages to some degree, to
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: some point, maybe not to some degree as in studying
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: so much, you get a degree, but that might
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Somebody listening might say, well, wait, I'm, I'm trying to
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: talk to my neighbor about Jesus, and what if I'm
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: using the wrong terminology, and maybe I, and it almost
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: makes people feel like they're not smart enough to share
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: their faith or something. What would you guys say?
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I, I think again, I, I think studying the
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: original languages is great, um, you know, not everyone has
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds or thousands of hours because learning a
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: language is hard from, from the ground up, you know, um.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: So to really have and honestly most pastors I know
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: don't have time they're, they're actually busy pastoring and believe
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: it or not that that's a lot of work, um,
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: outside even studying the Bible, actually leading a congregation, all
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: the decisions that go day in and day out helping
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: people through sickness and death and divorce and all this
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: kind of stuff, making decisions, you know, where, where are
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: we gonna meet, how much is the building cost, can
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: we afford this? Should we sign a like doing all
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: of that, um, so I think.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: The underlying issue is just translations in general. So like,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: you know, um, was pointed out just, you know, King James,
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: and yes, I would actually, by the way, say I
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: think that is an advantage of the King James is
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: the theses and thou's like that, that is good. There's
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of disadvantages I would actually say, but that
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: is an advantage in general, there is no one translation
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: that's perfect and does it all, you know, whenever you
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: go from one language to another, it's not a 1
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: to 1 equivalence.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: So, um, I think one thing that anybody can do
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: is read, like if you really wanna, if you're talking
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: beyond just devotional, like, hey, I'm gonna sit down and just,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: you know, with my cup of coffee at 5 in
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: the morning before I hit the freeway for work, you know,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: you're probably not gonna do this. You just pick one translation,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: read it, pray, and get, get moving with your day,
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: but read different translations side by side. This is what
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: I tell, um, people like if you're doing exegesis from
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: English text only.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: Read multiple translations. So like when I went to Vanguard University,
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: this is before I studied Greek and Hebrew in seminary, they,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: they made a rule for our, for our um um.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Uh, exegesis class, read every passage in at least 10 translations,
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: and you're like, good grief, um, so we would read
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: it in 10 and then when you do that, make
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: note of any differences, any significant significant differences. Then if
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: there are any, and by the way, many times it,
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: there's actually not a significant significant.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: difference. It's simply saying the same thing a different way. Uh,
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: that's usually what it is. But sometimes, no, it's actually
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: saying kind of a, a little different thing. Make note
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: of it, and that's when you go to your commentaries.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: You can go to lexicons, you can go to concordances,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: and then you can kind of see what's going on.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: So to be clear for, for people who don't have
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: the time or, or maybe even the money.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: To study original languages, you can get an awful lot
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: from doing comparative study of various English translations. I can
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: give further advice, specifically, get some more formal equivalence translations.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: That's what we tend to call word for word, get
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: some dynamic equivalence translations, that's thought for thought. So get
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: kind of a mix of both and kind of look
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: at them together, make those notes of any differences, and
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: then you can do further research on whatever difference it makes.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Paul, what do you think of that?
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Paul, you there?
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: Yes, OK, so what do you think of what was
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: just said? Taking the time to
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because that's the reason I use the KJV is,
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: is that's not an issue.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, the, the theses and thou's are great. I
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: definitely think that's great. Um, in academics, uh, King James
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: usually is not preferred to be used for a variety
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: of reasons, least being a lot of the English words
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: no longer hold the same meaning, uh, they do today, which,
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: which confuses people, especially younger people that aren't familiar with it.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: But another good thing just to, you know, uh,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: Point out one thing I think the King James Version
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: does well is the poetry sections of the Old Testament.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: I actually think the Old King James language for the
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: poetry is for me, I think, I think it's preferable.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: I think it comes across more poetic than I think
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: a lot of the modern ones.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Well, there's the ASV and there's the ESV. There's the
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: uh John Darby translation. They still use the V's and vowels.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: All right, well, thank you so much for your phone
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: call today, Paul from Highland, and thank you for listening
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: on the KWave app. Thank you for downloading the app.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: If you guys don't have the KWave app on your phone,
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: I recommend you download it. We recently redid a bunch
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: of features to it. It's now available for your iPhone
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: and your Android. Find it wherever you get your apps.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for calling in today, Paul. 888-564-6173
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: is the number to call.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: We've got Mike Chaddock, the pastor of Image Church in
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: San Juan Capistrano here today, as well as Aaron Hale,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: the pastor of Calvary Chapel Foothill Ranch in Lake Forest.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: And the guys are here to answer your questions until
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: 4 o'clock this afternoon. So call in to 888-564-6173. If
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: you're watching online right now on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: you can call in too. We've got the number there
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: on the bottom of your screen.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: You can call in before 4 and we'll try to
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: put you on. If you can't call in, you can
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: submit your question online, and, uh, easiest way to do
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: that is to scan the QR code. If you're watching
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: on Facebook, YouTube or Instagram, that'll take you to the
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: pastor's perspective page at Kwave.com where you can fill out
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: the form.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: And that'll get your question to us, but we won't
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: see that question today. So if you have a question
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: today that needs to be answered today, maybe you're meeting
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: with someone tonight, then call in today. 888-564-6173 is our number,
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: and we'll be right back here on Pastor's Perspective.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: We are back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: to call. You've got about 25 more minutes to call
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: in and ask your questions. Mike Chaddock and Aaron Hale
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: are answering those questions today at 888-5.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: 646-173. Quickly, let me ask a question that was submitted
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: online before we go to the phones, and, uh, Thomas,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: you'll be up next, so don't hang up. But Laura
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: wants to know, she's in Santa Ana, and, uh, she's asking,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: is there a Bible in a year podcast that you
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: would recommend? Aaron, got any recommendations? Yes, great question. I
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: love that. That's someone that's, uh, excited about, interested in
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: being in God's word every single day, and we, we
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: live in
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: A great time in the sense that there's so many
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: wonderful tools available to help us do that very thing.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: And I'd encourage you to go in two directions. One
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: is Bible in a Year.com, that's the website that corresponds
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: to Jack Graham's podcast, Bible in a Year. And uh
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: if you follow that, he is going to take you
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: through the word of God, Genesis to Revelation.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: In the course of 365 days, and sometimes having that
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: that accountability, that structure, it's, it's what we need, and
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: it's helpful. The next one would be either Bible.com or
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: the YouVersion app. They're they're both the same thing. And I,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: I know so many people blessed by the YouVersion app.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: There's lots of resources on there, uh, great variety, but
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: many Bible reading plans as well. And so you can
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: go there.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: And uh the the simplest approach would just be finding
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: a a structure and a daily plan for reading. And
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: uh that that can guide you through and my, my encouragement, actually, I,
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: I encourage our church body in this regularly.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Um, in your daily reading of the word that, that
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: you'd pick one place, if you're able. Maybe it's the
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: break room, maybe it's the couch, uh, maybe it's your car.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: Pick one place, pick one time. Pick a time during
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: the day. We're not all able to do this. Some
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: of you, your work shifts change, but, uh, personally, I,
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: I like to spend time with the Lord in the
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: morning before I've, uh, screwed things up too badly.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Um, so, uh, doesn't work for everybody, for some of you,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: it needs to be on a break later or in
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: the evening, but consistency is, is good. Same place, same time,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: and then in the word, reading through the Bible, reading
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: through a book of the Bible, which is why I
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: love this question. And something as simple as a bookmark
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: can really be helpful because if you've gotten away from it,
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, we, we, to go back a few questions, we
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: start struggling with condemnation and guilt and we think, oh,
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: I haven't read and um go back to where you
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: last read, pick it back up and read again. But
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: at any rate, you, great, great resource and Bible in
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: a Year with Jack Graham, another idea there, specifically as
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: a podcast.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Any recommendations,
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: um, for podcasts, no, um, myself, just, uh, I, I
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: love audio Bible, um, for me it's one of those
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: things where
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I think just hearing it, maybe it's just me
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: because I grew up, I, I read so much uh
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: there's something nice I noticed it's so it's different too, um,
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: I think when I read I tend to really zoom
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: in and focus on details, um, whereas when you're listening
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: you can't really do that you're, you're having to just.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: I, I feel like I get the big picture a
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: little bit better when I listen as opposed to read
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: and again it's not that one's better than the other,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: it's just different. I, I get, I learn differently. So
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: I just love using, uh, any audio Bible and just
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: listen to the word of God and you can, and
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: the cool thing is you can do that. I mean
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: you can do it in the car, you can go
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: for a walk and encourage people to get some exercise. hey,
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: go out for a walk and listen to the word
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: of God.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: And just to encourage people too because, um, and I think, uh,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Aaron's recommendations, uh, were good if Bible New Year podcast
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: means like somebody expounding or interpreting or something, um, I
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: think that that can be great obviously depending on, um,
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: which ones you're using the ones Aaron recommended are good, um,
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: for me again, I just, I love just hearing the
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Bible sometimes no commentary. I just want to hear the
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: word of God read and I think especially for someone
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: new to the Bible, I think just.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: Letting the Bible wash over you and just hearing it
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: and just become more and more familiar with it. You
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: may not understand everything. There'll be parts that are confusing, whatever,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: but just introduce yourself to the Bible. Just let it
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: become familiar and I think the more you go through it,
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: the more stuff starts making more sense to you. And
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: so just encourage people, just familiarize yourself with the Bible itself.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Laura, thanks for sending in your question through the pastor's
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: perspective Facebook page using messenger. Now let's go to Thomas
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: in Texas, who's watching us on YouTube, so we'll wave
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: hi to Thomas, and uh what's your question? Thanks for
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: calling in to 888-564-6173.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: Ah, first of all,
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: blessings be upon you all in the most merciful and
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: holy name of Jesus Christ.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: Thank you. My question will be about, uh, as you
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: were speaking about some translations of the Bible, cause I've
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: got a friend who is not Christian, and he sort
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: of questioned me about the translation cause as you know,
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: in the previous time, the Bible was written in the Hebrew,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: in the Arabic language which Jesus Christ spoke, and Latin.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: So he said, like if you go back in time
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: in the Greek Bible, uh,
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: The prisoner, whose name is Barbas, who was released instead
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: of Jesus Christ. They say his full name was Jesus Barbas,
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: and Barbaus means Son of God. So they're just sort of,
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: uh sort of gets their goal accomplished cause they believe
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: Jesus Christ was not crucified. Cause I don't know, I'm
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: not a Greek speaker.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: So,
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: I just had a question for that cause you were
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: speaking about a lot of translations while I was watching you.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: Hm, Mike.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: Um, so again, they, they say that Jesus and Barabbas
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: are the same person.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Uh,
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: they don't say Jesus and the Barabbas are the same person.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: They say before the Bible got translated by Mr. Martin Luther,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Barbara's full name was Jesus, like there are two Jesus
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: mentioned Jesus of Nazareth and Jesus of Berberus.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: Hm. Uh, so they say like, uh, Jesus of Nazareth
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: got crucified and Jesus of Barbarus got sort of released
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: and Barbarous means Son of God. So that means Jesus
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: was not crucified to accomplish their whole goal. Uh, they
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: say that and
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Uh, he said just to ask to your pastor, and
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: I would just give you guys a call because you
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: were speaking lately about a lot of Greek Aramaic translations
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: of the Bible. Mhm.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: Yup, that will be it.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting, um.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I, I mean, I don't know what to say.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: The apostles are pretty clear that it was Jesus of
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Nazareth that was crucified. Um, it says it over and over, uh,
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: the Greek is clear, the Greek is the earliest.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: Um, manuscripts of the New Testament that we have, so
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know what text they could possibly be referring
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: to because the Greek doesn't say that, and it's the
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: Greek manuscripts that we have and there's no.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: Version or story of that that comes earlier, you can
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: have later stories and of course the Islamic version which comes,
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: you know, what, 600 years later, um, that changes because
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: that's basically the Islamic view is they kind of adopt
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: some of the story.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Of the Bible, but then they say, oh, but there
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: were errors and we're gonna come around and we're gonna
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: fix it or change it or tell a different story,
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: such as Jesus wasn't really crucified. He was sort of,
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: you know, rescued or delivered. Well, that again, that's coming
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: over half a millennia later, that is not what.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: The original text say so if there's a specific text
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: um that you wanna cite um I'd be happy to
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: look at that one specifically um but just as a
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: general response to that claim I'd say it's just completely
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: non-historical and non-textual.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: What about the fact, uh, or Muslims also believe that
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: Christians worship three different gods, not just one God. Is
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: that true?
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Is it true they claim that? I mean,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: that
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: is,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: that's true. That is what I asked. Yes,
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: that, that is true that they claim that and you know,
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: I think that is.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Obviously that's a misunderstanding of the Trinity. And again, the,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: the very word Trinity, for example, is not in the
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: Bible and people um are fond of pointing out, which
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: is perfectly fine. The point is not that the word
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: is there, that the concept is the word was created
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: to help avoid that very idea that because there's two
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: opposite errors that people make with respect to the Father, Son,
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: and the Spirit.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: They can on the one hand say they're all the
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: same person. It's there's no distinction in persons. It's just
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: God who puts on his father hat. Then when he's done,
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: he takes that out, puts on his son hat, and
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: then puts on the, the, the spirit hat. And so
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: there's really no difference. It's, you know, a monad with
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: three different roles. That's one error. The opposite errors, you
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: got three actually different gods, which is polytheism basically.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: And that's not the Christian view because the Christian view
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: begins with the Old Testament view, which is Deuteronomy 6:4,
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: Shama israel Arunaya Elohenu Arunayahad, which is the Lord our God.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: Our Lord is one. There's only one God, and
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: The apostles and the early Christians did not go against
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: that monotheism, that covenantal monotheism of the Old Testament. There's
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: only one God. That's the foundational framework for their understanding
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: of Jesus. Then they go on to ask, well, if
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: there's one God, what do we say about the Father, Son,
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: and Spirit? Well, we already ruled out polytheism or three
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: gods because we've already.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: Said there's only one God that has to be fixed,
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: yet we see Father, Son, and Spirit each being referred
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: to as God. Furthermore, it can't be the modalism view where, oh,
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: there's no distinction in persons because for example, at the
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: baptism of Jesus, you actually see the inner life of
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: the triune God, Father, Son, and Spirit.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: Speaking to one like interacting at the same time, you
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: have God the Father saying, behold, this is my son
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: and who I'm well pleased. You have the Son, of course,
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: who's being baptized, then you have the Spirit who's descending
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: in the form of a dove on the Son. So
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: you actually have the triune God right there before you,
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: and the word Trinity was created to help.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Preserve biblical doctrine against those two common errors. So, I
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: think it's understandable that somebody who doesn't understand the Bible,
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: doesn't understand the Jewish roots, uh, of the New Testament, um,
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: to come at it from that tritheistic sort of.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: Perspective, but it's, it's simply not biblical and it's certainly
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: not historic Christianity.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and as Mike pointed out, as you move on
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: into the New Testament, you find multiple places where Father, Son,
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: and Holy Spirit are, are held on the same.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: Uh, playing the same level. Jesus in giving the great commission.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: He said, you know, go into all the world, preach
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: the gospel, baptizing in the name of the Father and
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, speaking of
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: the three as one equally. There are, there are other
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: places that speak to the same thing. And something I
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: wanted to
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: Share with you, Thomas, because you you've got, you've got
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: one or two questions here from your Muslim friend and
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: there are going to be more. And I would just
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: encourage you to
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: Um, and perhaps you already have, but I, I would
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: say get a hold of some good resources to help
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: you dig in and understand, um,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: Understand the the Islamic perspective, understand the teachings of Islam
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: in
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: Uh, contrast to, to the gospel and what the Bible teaches. I'm, I'm, uh,
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: Brian has just brought up for us, a Glad News
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: Ministry with, um,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Sammy Tonago, there we go. I was gonna say a
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: slightly different name, but there we go. And a couple
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: other books I would just mention, Reaching Muslims for Christ
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: by William Saul, uh, comparing the Quran and the Bible,
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Rick Richter, um, and, and there are others, a Google
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: search can help you find some, some good resources to
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: be able to answer, answer your your friend, I'm sure.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: Um, Kingdom of the Cults probably would be a great
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: resource too. That's sort of a clearing house for all, um,
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: religions and faiths outside of Christianity, or many of them
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: I should say, but um,
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: I, I hope that's helpful to you, Thomas. What were
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: the first two you mentioned Aaron? Uh, Reaching Muslims for
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Christ by William Saul, S A A L, and comparing
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: the Quran and the Bible, Rick Richter.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: All right, very good. Thomas, thank you for your phone
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: call today here on Pastor's Perspective. Now we'll talk to
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: Alex in Rialto. Welcome to the program, Alex. Thanks for
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: calling 888-564-6173.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Hi, hello. How can we help you all the time.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: What was that? I'm sorry. I was just hoping because
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: I listen to you guys all the time, like when
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: I get off work. Awesome. Thank you. So kind of
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: crazy to be on this side of it, um, but yeah,
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: I have been going through some marriage struggles related to infidelity. Um,
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: we've been married for about a little over 8 years now, um.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: And I don't know what the recovery is really going
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: to look like. So if you guys have any guidance
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: on that, uh, particularly my husband is, uh, not believe.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: He doesn't have a relationship with Christ right now. Um,
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: I continue to pray for that, but it's not. Did
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: he ever have a relationship with Christ? How did you
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: guys meet, etc.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: So I don't think so. He's had a lot of
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: hardship in his life. So, um, and his mother was
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: a very hard atheist. So I don't think he really
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: had that opportunity to grow in that. And then just
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: lots of death in his life, a lot of loss.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: I think he struggled with that piece of, you know, like,
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: God would not allow this to happen kind of thing.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: Um, but we met when I was in college, so
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: I was going to school, uh, UC San Diego, and
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: he was in the military actually at the time, so
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: they're just, you know, same area.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: bump it to each other, hit it off.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: OK, Mike, what would you say to Alex?
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm, I'm so sorry to hear that. It's obviously a, a,
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: a very tough road, uh, assuming he's willing to walk
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: it with you. Um, are you, is he, are you
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: guys going to counseling right now? Is he willing to
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: go to counseling? What's the situation as far as that?
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so he's going to like his own individual therapy
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: and then we're starting couples therapy.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: OK, you said you're not in couples therapy?
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's, that's the next thing
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: we're doing together.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so I, I think obviously that's great
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: if he's, he's seeing someone, but for you, since you,
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: you know, you're the one calling, you're, you're a believer, um,
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: I definitely think that would benefit you because I think
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: not only
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: You know, for you to get guidance, right, on what
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: does this road look like for you on your end, having,
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: you know, the one who's who's been wronged in this
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: particular way, but I think you also need to see
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: what work is he doing, what counsel.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: Is being given him, you know, um, I hope, of course,
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: this counselor, um, that he is seeing is a good
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: and wise counselor. I, I would hope it's a Christian counselor. Um,
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna guess if he's not a Christian, maybe it's not, uh,
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: unless maybe that's something that, um, you had asked him
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: to do. So again, where people.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: Because I've, uh, sadly, I've, I've heard a lot of
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: people go to counseling and then the counsel they got
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: was not good. And by not good, I'm not just
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: saying my opinion, I mean, against, I think biblical values,
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: biblical standards, that kind of a thing, you know, so, um, I,
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: I would definitely recommend that step gets taken, that you
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: do it together. That doesn't bar you even from doing
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: your own, you know, individual counseling if.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: You think that would help, but I, I definitely think
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: that's what something you need is to see together like
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: what are we doing, not just what are you doing
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: on your own? What is being said? What are you,
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: what are you saying to them? What are you disclosing? Uh,
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: what are they telling you? I think you should be
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: in on that process. I think that's very, very important
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: because like I've said, I've, um, at the end of
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: the day, this, this has to be an agreement that
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: the two of you make if you're gonna work it out.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: It can't just be two individuals.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: You know, figuring it out on their own, you definitely
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: have to come together and be like, hey, what, what
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: are we gonna do? How do we, uh, approach this
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: together if there's going to be a way forward and
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: of course I, you know, I hope there's healing for
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: you and you grow in your walk with the Lord having,
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: you know, been hurt, uh, in this way, and I
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: hope he comes to Christ, you know, um.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: You know, the truth is we're, we're all sinners, we've
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: all fallen short of the glory of God and maybe
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: this is something he's like, man, I didn't think I
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: could do this, you know, this is a new low
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: for me. I trusted in my own goodness. I trusted in, oh,
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: maybe I haven't done this before or whatever and you know, and,
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: and maybe there'll be a brokenness there and I think
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: that's what we have to have if we're, we have
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: to see our need for Christ.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: You know, we're not going to come to Christ if
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: we don't think we need him. So hopefully this becomes
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: an occasion in which he will come to Christ and
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: then of course, um, all kinds of things become possible.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: Aaron, what would you say to Alex? Yeah, as Mike shared,
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: working together on this in, in the context of counsel
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: is really important because you
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: Where there's been infidelity, you, you, you want to be
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: wise as a serpent, gentle as a dove, you, you
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: want to be able to measure change and a commitment
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: to that change. There, there needs to be mechanisms for accountability, um.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: You, you want to proceed with caution and you wanna,
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: you wanna be able to do that again in the
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: context of that.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: That counselor, hopefully a biblical counselor, if that's if that's possible,
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: or a pastor. I realized with a spouse that's not
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: a believer, that that might be tough. But
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: Them, them going and getting help and telling you they're,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: they're better, that's just, that's not enough. There's there's gotta
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: be avenues to be able to have access to um
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: Their life in a more full way to be able
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: to um
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: Again, have opportunity to.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: Measure and and see consistent change, uh, to be, to
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: be certain that things are on a trajectory toward healing
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: and that this isn't.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: This isn't just a situation where someone got caught. Um,
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: unfortunately that happens sometimes and there's just temporary change that
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: takes place, but it's not, it's not consistent. And for,
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: for your sake and for your, your heart and your well-being, you,
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: you want to be very careful about that. This is
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: one of the reasons why.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: This would be
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: A place in scripture that would give an allowance for
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: a marriage ending. It's not a requirement though. It doesn't
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: have to end. God can work, he can move, even
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: in a situation with a spouse that's not a believer, because, uh,
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: as Mike pointed out, it, it could be an opportunity
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: for this, this one to come to know Christ through this. So, I,
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: I just would
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: encourage you to be um sober as you walk forward,
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: deeply dependent on the Lord in prayer and definitely bring
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: the counseling and the path forward into the context of
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: You two working together with a with a counselor, preferably
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: someone who's that counsel is being informed by the word
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: of God.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: Alex, how long ago did the betrayal happen?
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: Um, so
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: One was a month ago.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: And the other one was 6 months prior to that, um,
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: so I guess that was gonna be a follow up
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: question is, you know, like how far does the forgiveness extend, um,
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: you know, how many allowances.
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: I know that's not, there's no real answer for that,
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: you know, like, um, were these two instances with two
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: different people or with the same person on more than
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: one occasion, a different, different people. OK. And these, so
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: these happened a month ago and 7 months ago and
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: it was disclosed or was he caught or what happened?
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: What happened? Uh, he was caught both times.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, see, those are, and this is why, you know, it,
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: it's not a cop out to say definitely you want
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: to do counseling because those are details, for example, if
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: somebody is not caught and they come clean, like obviously I,
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: I have more optimism about, oh, hey, there's some repentance
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: there and wanting to move forward if they're getting caught,
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: that isn't them coming clean, right? There was no, you know,
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: even after, um, a, a failure being caught, you know, in,
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: in a vice, there can at least be the virtue of, hey, confession,
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: I come forward, I admit it.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: But to see one vice followed up by another of
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: concealment is not good. And then I think, like you said, there,
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: there's no magic number of, you know, you know, uh
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: should I forgive him this time, that time. I think
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: forgiveness and reconciliation are two different things. That's very, very
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: important to say. I think as a Christian, yes, you,
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: you forgive him, not because even he deserves it, but
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: because you believe in what Christ has done for you.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: When we pray the Lord's prayer, we say forgive us
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: our debts as we forgive our debtors. We release the
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: debt to God, but reckon, so that's a one-way street
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: doesn't he could say, I don't want you to forgive me,
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: and you can still forgive him for the sake of
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: Christ anyway, but reconciliation is a two-way street, and that
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: you can forgive him but not be reconciled because the
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: reconciliation does depend not just on you forgiving, it depends
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: on him repenting.
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: He's, he's got to stop the behavior. He's got to
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: become accountable. He's got to do the, the hard work
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: and be willing to do it. And to be honest
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: with you, some people, not saying it's him, some people ironically,
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: they're not willing to do the work. They're like, oh,
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: you know, if you're gonna ask me where I am
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: all the time and you're, you're gonna wanna see my
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: phone or you're gonna wanna check the, my email, you know,
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: I don't want to do. It's like, look, you did
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: the violation. I, I know this isn't what you would
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: want to do, but you
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: You have to, if you care, you got to put
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: in the work. You got to do what you got
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: to do, but some people aren't willing to do that.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: So I, I just doubled down on what Aaron and
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: I both said about couples counseling, preferably Christian. I, I
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: do feel like you probably, it's my opinion, but I,
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: I think you should stick to your guns on that
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: one that you're seeing Christian counseling. I just, I think
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: as a Christian for you, I think that's very important.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: If he doesn't want to do it.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: That's, that's his decision, but he also doesn't have to
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: repent either, you know, so it's a decision you're going
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: to ultimately have to make.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: Alex, thanks for calling in today to Pastor's Perspective. We're
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: gonna be praying for you, and there's a program that
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: airs here on Kwave 11:10 on the weekends. It's from
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: New Life Ministries. They do something called the Restore Healing
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: after Betrayal intensive. It is for women who have been betrayed.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: The next workshop is happening next month, just a few
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: weeks away in Washington DC. You can find out more
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: about it at newlife.com.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: Slash restore. Alex, thanks for your phone call. We are
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: out of time today here on Pastor's Perspective, but we'll
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: be here again tomorrow. Mike Chaddock and Aaron Hale, thank
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: you guys for joining me today. We're going to archive
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: today's episode on Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify if
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: you missed any part of it or just want to
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: hear it again, or maybe share it with your friends.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: God bless you guys, we'll talk to you tomorrow right
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: here on Pastor's Perspective.