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The Debbie Fahey Files: Too Many Questions · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Adam Shand. In a recent episode of the podcast, I
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: spoke with former Victoria Police Assistant Commissioner Noel Ashby about
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: quadruple murderer Alistair Farquhar McRae, known as Sandy. In July 1985,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: McRae killed Dominic Marafiotti in Mildura over a drug deal,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: then drove to Adelaide and killed Marafiotti's parents, Rosa and Carmelo,
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: at their Woodville North home. Six months earlier, he'd killed
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: another man, Albert O'Hara in Melbourne, once again over a
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: drug deal. Arrested in 1987, McRae was given four life
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: sentences with a non-parole period of 36 years. That non-parole
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: period has expired and and McRae, now 77, is seeking
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: his freedom, subject to a review by the Parole Board
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: of South Australia. Noel Ashby believes McRae has more to
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: answer for and should never be freed. Ashby pointed to
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: the suspicious circumstances around the alleged heroin overdose deaths of
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: more than a dozen women who worked in brothels and
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: massage parlours in Melbourne in the late 1970s and early 1980s.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Ashby believes that McRae, who worked for a man named
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Geoffrey Lamb, known back then as the Brothel King of Melbourne,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: may have been involved in the deaths of some of
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: these women. I called for anyone with information to get
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: in touch with me, and soon after the episode aired,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I got a message from the daughter of one of
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: these women. Deborah Joy Fay died of a heroin overdose
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: in a Melbourne hotel room in August 1981. The coroner
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: ruled the overdose was self-inflicted, but Debbie Fay's daughter has
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: conducted her own investigation, which has raised important evidence that
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: that suggests McRae could have had a hand in her death.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: To protect her identity, I'm calling Debbie Fay's daughter, Des. Des,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: welcome to Real Crime.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Thank you. It's good to be here.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been quite a week. Now, when we did
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: the interview with Noel Ashby, former Assistant Commissioner of VicPol,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: we made a call out that anybody who might have
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: information about the dozen or more suspicious people heroin overdoses
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: around the 1980 period should come forward. But little did
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: we know that you were working in parallel with this.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: So I feel like we're destined to talk. And tell me,
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: what did you think when you heard the podcast?
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: Because I had some recollections of McRae's name from growing
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: up through family stories, but I didn't, there was nothing
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: ever there that was that really linked it to it
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: and again they were only stories and I just I
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: honestly thought that was just hearsay but hearing it and
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: the way that you presented it in your podcast and
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: linking to potentially 15 other deaths at the time and
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: it was just so coincidental I'd ordered my mum's prob
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: file so the the public records of Victoria file and
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: what they call a body card on the sunday night
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: and just by chance i was listening to a podcast
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: to go to sleep on the monday and i like
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: listening to murder and mayhem um i was listening to
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: your podcast and it was just like it was just
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: way too coincidental and it was just i've really i
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: had to reach out to you and say hey this
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: is what's going on and one thing's led to another
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: where i've gone down a rabbit warren.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, thank God I didn't put you to sleep,
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: otherwise you might have missed the crucial information. That's right.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: And I think my job would have been a lot harder.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: But I think there's a real opportunity here, and because
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: you've had snippets of published material over the years, misspelt,
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: I might say, about your mum being connected to Macrae,
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: so you're never really sure.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: No.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: And tell me, in your life, what What has that
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: absence of information been like? What's been the impact on you?
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: Well, if you don't know, you don't know. So I've
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: always left with questions. So I was always told that
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: mum suicided when I was three. She was 23 when
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: she died and that she had suicided. And I guess
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: my upbringing didn't allow for me to get that information
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: that I was real that was true I didn't grow
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: up obviously in Melbourne in that environment I think I
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: was there until I was five and then I was
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: taken away by my biological father and he never ever
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: spoke about her never and if it was it was
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: always in a derogatory manner so I just didn't ask
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: so it was very very minimal information that I had
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: about mum pardon.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Me for saying this but given that information you were
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: given You could be forgiven for thinking mum abandoned you,
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: she was a junkie who couldn't handle her life and
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: ended it.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Getting the files put a lot of things into context.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: You don't want to talk badly about someone that's died,
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: especially to their daughter. So there's a lot of information
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: that I found out for the first time reading the
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: reading the coronial files and it is confronting but again
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: you don't know what you don't know and you don't
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: miss what you've never had so I never really had
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: a mother growing up so I don't know what that
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: connection's like what it is to have have that I
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: don't recall anything about her I don't don't have any
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: recollection of her whatsoever so I'm looking through the eyes
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: and I know that it's my mother but I'm very,
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: I guess, abstract from it in a way.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Have you seen pictures of her?
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, seen pictures of her. Not many. I think I've
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: got about four pictures of her. I've got one picture
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: of her and I together, and I think that's the
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: only picture that I've been... I was only told that
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: it was me. I don't know that it was me,
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: but that's the only picture that I have of her,
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: of her and I together.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: I can't help but feel... that you're hearing her voice
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: through this process.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. It's putting some pieces together. It's not painting
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: a very pretty picture because what I'm reading is obviously
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: the shitty side of her life. I'm not hearing the
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: good stuff. It's like the statements clearly state that she
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: was a prostitute and she was quite heavily involved in
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: some pretty nasty stuff. So it would be good to
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: know some good stuff, that'd be really good.
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: Well, that's right because the paperwork that you've got paints
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: a picture depressingly familiar to people in Melbourne at that time.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. A drug-addicted woman who couldn't handle what was going
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: on so she took her own life in a squalid
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: motel in St Kilda and that's the end of the story.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: See, that's the thing. If you look up the hotel
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: from that time... So it was the Queen's Lodge in
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: St Kilda. And if you actually look that up for
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: that period, it actually wasn't a squalor. So I've been
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: imagining that it was some dodgy cockroach infested hotel. And
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: from what I can gather from historical pictures, it actually
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: wasn't that. It was actually a little bit more upmarket
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: than the red brick sticky carpets and vibrating bed that
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: I'd imagined for a number of years. So I'm happy
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: about that part.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: I think the vibrating bed might have been an optional
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: extra in those days, but let's not go there. And
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: that motel's now gone. There were lots of these little
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: motels in the area at the time, little one- or
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: two-storey low-rise motels that were frequented by people who were
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: using it for sex work, for drug use, for a
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: And so as we talked to Noel Ashby, he made
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: it very clear that Alistair Farquhar McRae, known as Sandy,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: should not get parole. He's 77. He's a quadruple murderer.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: And I had no idea that you were sitting there
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: with that name in your mind as well. And you
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: contacted me. We talked. You said you were getting the
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: public records file on her death from the coroner. And
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: within one or two days, it appears as if by magic.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: And it shows a much closer relationship between Sandy McRae
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: and your mum. What did you find out?
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: Well, so I was expecting maybe his name may have
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: been mentioned. I didn't expect to find what I found.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: So the first file that I received was the body
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: card and it actually had a deposition of a witness
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: statement from Sandy McRae. In it, it says that he'd
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: known mum for three years and obviously quite a lot
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: of other things in that statement. There was mentioned the
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: day before she passed she'd actually left her the i
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: think it was the one of the escort parlors or
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: massage parlors whatever you want to call them back in
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: the day i mean she was going to a doctor's
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: appointments at the the hospital down there and he received
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: a telegraph from her a telegram a telegram yeah.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: Who sends a telegram i mean even then.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Who sends a telegram? Yeah, that's exactly right. And the
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: telegram itself.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: First red flag. That's the first red flag for me. Yeah.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: So she left that place at 2 o'clock on the
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: 11th of August, 1981, So two o'clock and then she's
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: gone to the hospital. I don't know whether she actually
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: made it to the hospital, whether she'd actually had an
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: appointment at the hospital. There's nothing, there's no evidence here,
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: no documents backing that up. And then it sent, so
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: I've got his statement here, then sent the telegram. Tuesday
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: the 11th of August at about 2pm, Debbie left from
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: the escort agency at 92 Perry Street, Collingwood. She was
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: supposed to be going to the Queen Victoria Hospital to
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: have a checkup. At the time she left me, she
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: was in a good frame of mind and appeared to
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: be happy. To my knowledge, Debbie had not used heroin
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: since about 10 days previously. At about 4pm the same day,
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: I received a telegram from Debbie, which said, I quit, DS, again,
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: love you heaps, car in car park across from hospital.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: ticket in the glove box. Sorry, can't handle pace, Debbie.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: So he was, he's allegedly the last person that had
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: communication with her. Again, I can't confirm that. But she
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: checked into the motel at 2.30 that day. So between
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: 2pm and 2.30, she managed to get the car and
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: allegedly park it at the hospital car park, get the
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: parking ticket. send a telegram and get to the motel
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: to check in.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: Two, take her own life. Now, these things just don't
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: add up to me.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: No.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Let's take a step back here. 2pm, McRae says your
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: mother left him. She was in a quite good frame
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: of mind and appeared to be happy. Yeah. She'd not
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: used heroin for about 10 days previously. So not two
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: hours later... Everything seems to have changed. And as you
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: say in the telegram, she says, I quit. So she
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: leaves the car at Queen Victoria Hospital for some reason
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: and then gets herself to the Queen's Lodge Motel in
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: St Kilda.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: Now, the hospital and the motel are about six and
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: a half, seven k's away from each other.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: And what's wrong with the car? And she says, car
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: in car park. Well, where are the keys? So there's
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: just questions there aplenty.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Now let's take another step back. Nine days earlier, before
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Debbie died, he says in his statement, I was concerned
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: about her. I went to a girlfriend of hers' place.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Her girlfriend denied she was there, but I went in
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: and found her hiding in a wardrobe. Why was she there?
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: hiding in the wardrobe from someone who days later, nine
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: days later, she's saying, I love you heaps, it doesn't
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: make any sense as well.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: It doesn't make sense. But it also says in that
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: section too that she was under the influence of drugs. Now,
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: go back to the section where she hadn't used in
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: 10 days.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: And how does he know that?
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: There's a contradiction there. That's right.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: There is. But.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: He says nine days before, that's when she found him
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: and found her hiding in the cupboard because that's what
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: you do. And then he says, goes on to say
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: that she hadn't used for 10 days.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: Right. And then he goes on to say that it
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: did not surprise me that Debbie had overdosed on heroin
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: as all the binges she had were to the extremes.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: And it was only inevitable that she would go too
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: far one day and overdose. But days earlier, on the
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: same day, she's healthy and happy.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: She's fine.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Hasn't had a hit for 10 days, yet he's convinced.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: And the other interesting thing, sorry to jump in here,
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: but what I find really a big red flag is
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: when he writes, several weeks earlier, Debbie had been charged
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: by the police with trafficking and possession of heroin. This
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: had worried Debbie as she thought that she was being
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: looked at as a real big dope dealer. It was
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: very apparent that Debbie was very distressed about this. And
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: even though we never talked about it, well, how does
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: he know it? I knew that she was very scared
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: about the charges. Well, maybe it was him that was
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: scared about the charges because something that Noel Ashby has
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: told me subsequently is that McRae and his boss, Jeffrey Lamb,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: there was heroin in their establishments, in the massage parlours
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: and brothels that they ran. And Lamb himself was a
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: heavy heroin user. So I think, and Noel believes this
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: is true as well, that McRae is bricking in this
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: series of events to make sure that this is regarded
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: as a suicide.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Which raises all kinds of questions and, of course.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: And it paints him, he's painting himself as being a
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: nice bloke. So when he discovered her in the cupboard...
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: And she was obviously high. He clearly states in there
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: that he took her home and looked after her and
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: he had to stay up all night to make sure
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: that she was okay. So here I am. I've gone
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: to rescue this damsel in distress and I'm doing all
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: I can to look after her.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And yet he's really setting up this circumstance where
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: she's a hopeless heroin user. Her suicide is inevitable and
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: yet the circumstances on the day are are highly suspicious.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: And of course, if police had known that within four years,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: he would become a quadruple murder convicted, or he's convicted later,
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: but he would commit four murders, they would have looked
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: at him differently in these circumstances. And you can imagine
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: in the tone of the times, there was an epidemic
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: of this sort of event happening, women overdosing on heroin
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: in very similar circumstances. And I think several of them
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: could be regarded as hot shots and murders And I'm
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: not ruling out your mother's death by any means.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: No, but until we get all the bits, which I'm
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: waiting for.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Well, I think also that just like you, there's somebody
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: else out there who's got information. If you're sitting there
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: right now and you know what happened, you know more
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: about the relationship between Debbie Fay and Sandy McRae, that
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: you come forward right now because... This man, in my opinion,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: should answer the questions before he's allowed to be free,
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: even at the age of 77. But I think more,
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: and you've done some great work on that. I've got
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: to give you big credit here. I'd love to claim credit,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: but this is not my work. You got the information
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: from the attending officer, Ron Fovell, who went to the
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: motel after your mother was found by one of the
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: staff at the motel. What did he detail there?
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: So in Ron's– Ronald Favell, so he was the– at
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: the time in August 1981, he was a constable.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: In his– Actually, you've actually demoted him. He was a
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: detective senior constable. No. So he had some seniority.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: No.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Oh, okay.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: At the time in August 1981, he was a constable.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: I see.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: It wasn't until the inquest– In 82, that he is
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Detective Senior Constable.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, so he's gone out of uniform by the time
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: the inquest has happened. Well done. Thank you. Details matter.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So in the report of death, it states in there,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: and his statement as well, that at the time of
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: the death, she was separated, found her lying flat on
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: her back. Next to the bed was found two syringes.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: One had blood in it. and one had blood in
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: it and on the hypodermic syringe tip. Also present were
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: four empty foils with trace of white powder. Also present
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: was a spoon with a burn mark underneath.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Blackened underside and a residue in the bowl.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Blackened underside, that's right. But then when you get the pathology,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: look at the pathology report... It states a hypodermic syringe
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: and pieces of foil. It doesn't quantify how many syringes,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: so we don't know that. But then it says two
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: spoons as well with a white residue in the bowl.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: The residue contained morphine. So this is from the Pop
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Pathology Report. And there's also a decomposing lemon.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: Right, which is often used in the process of mixing
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: up the heroin. One thing he did say, and he's
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: quite observant here, Constable Ron Favell, And I found him
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: on Facebook, by the way. So if you hear this, Ron,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: get in touch because you may be able to add
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: some more detail to this, maybe answer a couple of
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: questions that linger about this. But he says in his statement,
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: the spoon was consistent with the method that drug addicts
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: mix an amount of heroin in and then heat it
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: over a candle or cigarette lighter. He is meticulous about
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: everything else in the room.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: But there is no candle or cigarette lighter. So how?
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: And you found this. I didn't. You did. Yeah. it's
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: not mentioned so if there's no heat source in the
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: room how did your mother heat the heroin to inject.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: Right to inject it yeah yeah and look i'm not
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: um all up on drug use why would there be
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: two needles would be my question And he only reports
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: one spoon, but yet two spoons were tested. Where did
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: the other bloody spoon come from?
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Well, exactly. And two syringes suggest possibly two people. Four foils,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: four caps as they called it, is a lot of heroin.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: And I think in an earlier statement, she was in
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: a previous relationship. We'll talk about her in a minute.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: But she talked about your mother's heroin use and she
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: would use no more than half a cap Yeah. So
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: here she is with four, two syringes and no lighter.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: And no lighter. Where's the lighter? And the fact that
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: he was so meticulous in his description of the scene
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: around what he's saying, why would you say that there
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: was a lighter there?
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Right. Absolutely. And why wouldn't you? Or a candle. He
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: makes specific reference to.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: A blackened spoon.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And he seems to be. He understands drug use,
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: heroin use. He understands that a drug addict, this is
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: what he writes, having a habit of four caps a
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: day is referred to as having a large habit, which
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: could require the cost of $ 200 a day.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: But if you read, is this the deposition that you're reading?
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, so that deposition is dated in July 82, June
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: or July 82, right? Is he speaking about what his
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: knowledge of drug use was in August 81 or July 82?
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: I think he's just working off his notes of his
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: day book, which he should be to make this deposition.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: But nonetheless, it raises the whole possibility of this is
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: four caps for one person. Yes, it would be a
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: lethal dose. But your mother had never used that much heroin.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: I know that she, there is reference to the fact
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: from McRae that she had attempted suicide on previous occasions,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: but he would say that, wouldn't he? So I don't, he's.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: So it really begs the question, did McRae murder your mother?
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: What do you think?
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: I think that his statement is certainly setting it up
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: to look that way. I think the other witness statements
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: are certainly setting it up to look that way. without
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: getting the Freedom of Information Act that we're really, really
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: waiting on and trying to ascertain around the drug trafficking
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: charges that she was allegedly... Right... that was allegedly happening
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: at the time, to link that up, I think there's
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: a strong possibility.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely. I think... And I run this past a
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: former head of homicide in New South Wales, a couple
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: of homicide detectives in Victoria, and the absence of the
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: heat source... the extra syringe, the amount of heroin there,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: the contradictions in McRae's statements are all red flags that
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: would require further investigation had they been apparent back in
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: the day. I'm not criticising Ron Fovell or anybody else.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: No, not at all.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: Because there were lots of these deaths at the time,
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: 12 or 15 of them, and.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: In all these cases, the living man tells the story.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: And McRae is the surviving partner. He identifies your mother's body.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: He gives the full statement of her movements. It's all
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: up to McRae.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: So when I got the coronial, the next file, the
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: next prov file, which was the coronial inquest file, didn't
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: really give me much more information, but it did give
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: me who identified the body. And that was Sandy McRae.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Now the body, so she passed on the, she checked
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: into the motel on the 11th. She was discovered at
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: 11.30 on the 12th of August by some poor darling housekeeper.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: I really feel sorry for her. And that was at 11.30.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Police attended at 11.45. She was then pronounced, she was
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: then transported to hospital and I don't know how she
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: got to hospital. And she was pronounced dead at 1.35.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: But by 1.45, she was at the morgue. And then
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: she was identified by Alistair McRae. And on that, Alistair
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: indicates that he was her fiancé at the time.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: So he's now upscaled. He's now upscaled, yeah. He could
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: have been your stepfather.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, lucky me. In all fairness, I don't know what.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: It was worth. Yeah, quadruple murderer or the father you had.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: But needless to say, your father was still married to
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: your mother at that time, I believe.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And like he, so we'll go
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: back to the timeline. So the autopsy happened on the
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: 13th of August as well. And she was taken to
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: the funeral home for cremation on the 13th as well.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: So that all happened very quickly.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: As you would, and I think in the end, the coroner,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: and see, the thing is, the coroner makes a finding
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: that she had self-administered the lethal dose of heroin.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: I don't blame the coroner for coming to that assumption.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: I think it is an assumption. Yeah. Based on the
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: input that they had from McRae, from the scene, and
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: I think the fact that if it is correct, the
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: heat source was missed. There was no other reason to
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: suggest anybody else was involved. But Noel Ashby, I talked
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: to him yesterday. He's now in China. He's going to
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: check in again in a few days. But his belief
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: is that the trafficking charges would hold the key to everything.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Exactly what was your mother facing? And did it possibly
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: involve McRae? Or was that a loose end that he
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: needed to tie off, as it were?
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So one of the family stories that I heard
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: along the way was that mum was trying to get
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: out of that world. Keeping in mind I was a
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: very young teenager, I didn't know what that world was really,
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: that she was trying to get out of that world
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: and that's why she died. Could it have been that
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: the drug trafficking charges and what she was telling the
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: police around that time with who she was living with
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: and obviously was in quite an intimate relationship, what was
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: she telling them at the time?
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Well, that's right. That's right. And, I mean, had she
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: been in custody? I mean, was that the reason she
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: wasn't using? And I think the fact that McRae provides
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: a critical piece of information that corroborates what you were
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: told as the family story that she was trying to
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: get away. Nine days earlier, she is hiding from him.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. And, like, I don't want to rewrite history.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: I just want the facts. I just want to know
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: exactly what happened. There's way too many inconsistencies, and if
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: you compare all three witness statements as well, there's a
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: lot of inconsistencies amongst what was reported there as well.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: So there's a few red flags around that, and I
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: could imagine that McRae and all that would have been
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: quite intimidating at the time. And the timeline of her death,
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: it just doesn't... From when she was reported as being found...
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: to being shipped off to the crematorium and McRae identifying
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: the body, how did he get informed? How was he told?
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: What was his demeanour? But they're the little bits and
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: pieces that I'd like to know. But yet it was
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: my biological father that ordered the request for the body
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: to go and be cremated. Why wasn't he the one
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: that identified her as her legal husband? Where's his statement?
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: What was he up to? around that time because I'd
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: put him well and truly in that mix somehow because
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: I know my mum had actually shot him somewhere after
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: I was born between there quite badly with a shotgun.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: That's new news. Your mother shot your biological father?
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: Because he was a piece of shit. He wasn't a
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: very nice man. He wasn't nice to me growing up.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: It was quite horrific. So I can imagine that he
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: would have been the same to her the whole time.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: But she's in a relationship with Sandy McRae. You've got
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: the whole underworld woman. Get them onto him.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Boy. So what happened to your father?
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: He died in August 2020. I think from cancer. I'm
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: not 100% sure.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: And did you ever ask him what happened to mum?
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: It was a very taboo subject, extremely taboo. I got
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: little tidbits, and he'd use that as a carrot, to
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: get me to do things growing up and even then
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: I'd only get very minimal information and not much. It
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: was never anything substantive and I don't have any actual
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: real recollection of anything positive.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: So get you to do what? What did your father
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: get you to do?
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: He was quite abusive. He was very abusive. So he'd
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: use that to get me to do certain things.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: You've not had an easy go, have you, in life, Des?
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: Yes and no. Yes and no, like you don't. I'm
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: probably a product of my upbringing, but in spite of
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: my upbringing, I guess.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: So who raised you in the end?
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: He did up until I was about 13 and then
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: I was in foster care for a few years. Then what?
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Then I lived with quite a few friends on and
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: off and then I was out on my own.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: And you made a good go of life. You're independent.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: You've got your own children.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a son. He's 16 and taller than
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: me and he's a sweetheart.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: So you made it through despite a rocky start.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. But the thing that shines, so my great,
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: so up until I was five, I was in the
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: care of my great grandmother, which was Debbie's grandmother. But
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: it states in her statement that she actually raised Debbie
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: as well. So we've got that. I don't know how
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: to explain it. And then, so I've got other siblings
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: as well, but two of those, two of my sisters,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: were actually raised by my father's parents. So, yeah.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: And these are not your mother's biological children, your siblings?
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: They're from your father from another relationship, right?
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So I'm the only child of my mother. But, yeah. And, like,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: if you read Nan's statement, it's quite telling as well. Like,
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: it doesn't paint a pretty picture. Yeah. At all.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: No.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: Of what was going on back then.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Tough times. Tough times. Now, next steps. Next steps. You
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: need to get the file on the drugs charges.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Yep. So I've requested.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: requested that through the freedoms of information and then i
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: followed that up with an urgent request um with big
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: police freedom of information this morning but from what i
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: can gather there's quite a big backlog and it takes
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: some time well.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: I think the world's going to get out of your
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: way and it's going to it's going to assist you
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: going with you no no no i really feel that
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: And the other thing we didn't mention also, which you
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: discovered in the file, was that your mother had been
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: in a same-sex relationship with a woman prior to this
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: last episode before she died. Yes. What does that tell
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: you in there?
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: That she definitely jam-packed her 23 years. She, yeah, and
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: that was interesting itself. I was just like, okay, all right.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: But that was her name. I've since discovered and I
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: think I'm pretty confident that I discovered her and that
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: she has passed because I found her body file because
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: I couldn't find any other avenues. I did quite a
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: few deep dives all over the place and then had
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: a brain snap and thought I'd do a search like
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: I did for mum's file and she was there. And
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: that was in 1985, I believe, she passed.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: I think she could provide more background information of the
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: relationship between your mother and McRae. Her name was Faye
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Janice Dale.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: That's right, yeah. Yeah. And, again, if you read all
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: three statements together, there's a lot of parallels and a
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: lot of double up of information. There is. Like Nan
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: doesn't mention McRae by name, which is telling. She also
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: doesn't mention that, she doesn't mention Faye Janice either, and
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: they lived at her house for a period of time.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: So, like, it could be the way the questions were
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: asked and all that at the time. You don't know.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: There's obviously a lot of information that we'll never know,
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: but there's a lot of red flags across all three statements.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Well, these are very... These are very dangerous people. And
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: let's not forget that when McRae kills Dominic Marafiotti in Mildura,
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: he then goes to Adelaide and kills his parents.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: So this is only a matter of a few years later.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: So I wouldn't blame your grandmother, your great-grandmother.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: Is she your great-grandmother? My great-grandmother, yeah.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't blame your great-grandmother for being cautious about And
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: going along with.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: Because I think the thing is your mother was, whether
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: your mother was murdered or took her own life, she
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: was a victim of her own lifestyle.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: The people she was associating with, the milieu, but that
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean that a proper investigation shouldn't happen even at
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: this time.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: No.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: And now.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: Like if there's 15 other women linked. in this same
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: sort of similar scenario, their lives mattered. They were women,
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: they were mothers, they were sisters, daughters. Just because they
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: were prostitutes or drug addicts or whatever lifestyle they were
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: living at the time doesn't mean their lives don't matter.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: They do. And it's what happened to them to be
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: put in that position and things were a lot different
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: back then.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: And... their lives do matter, and especially your mother who
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: we're talking about, because we have McRae who's seeking parole
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: at the age of 77 in South Australia. And I
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: think most people seem to agree that he's going to
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: get parole. And I think it's only fair and only
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: just that he's asked the question at least, what did
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: you know about this? And answer those questions. Where is
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: this telegram? Where did you receive it? Well, there's extra questions.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: How did you know that Debbie was at the Queen's
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Lodge Motel? Who told you? Yeah. How did you attend
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: the morgue? How, how, how, why, why, why? Yeah. And
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you've written to him.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: I have. And I wrote to him before I'd actually
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: seen the files.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my advice. I didn't know what I
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: didn't know then.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: That's okay. Yeah, I didn't know either. And I honestly
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: thought that I was going to get the file and
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: there may or may not be some sort of mention.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: I didn't expect to find a statement from him. I
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: didn't expect to find that he was the one that
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: identified her. I didn't expect for him to say that
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: he was her fiancé. And like, dude, if you were
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: her fiancé, why aren't you paying for the funeral? I've
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: literally got a receipt that says I paid for the funeral.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: I was three. Give me my money.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: You paid for the funeral.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Apparently. The receipt's in my name.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: How did that work?
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: You finally get a mention at that point.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: That is bizarre. Well, that is about all the news
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: that's fit to print at this stage. We don't know
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: what we don't know yet.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: No.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: There's more to come. Yeah. But I really.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: I want the evidence to show for itself. I don't
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: want to make up scenarios. I'm very mindful of that.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: But I think we've got good grounds to attempt to
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: link it all together.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Good. And I'm going to keep following this until we
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: get to a conclusion and that the Parole Board is
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: made aware of the discrepancies in this investigation and that
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: your mother and any others who perished in the same
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: way are given respect and dignity of a proper investigation.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: And I don't want to cast aspersion, criticism on the
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: police of the past, because I think the thing about McRae,
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: the way they were living, they understood there was an
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: epidemic of these deaths going on due to heroin. And
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: they knew how such an investigation would roll. And the
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: fact that he could intercede at critical moments to guide
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: the investigation towards the assumed conclusion, it is not the
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: fault of the police. But I would hold them accountable
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: today if nothing is done with this information. Yeah, yeah.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: And the one that, the query that sits there in
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: the back of my mind, they obviously knew that McRae
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: was linked to mum. He identified a body. So they
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: had to have known on the 12th of August that
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: there was a link there. And if he was so
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: well known around that time, which he was, why isn't
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: he mentioned in the statement? And why wasn't further investigations
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: done then?
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: So many questions. And, you know, I had the chance,
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: if I'd known about this maybe 10 years ago, I
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: would have asked more questions because I knew Paul Higgins.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: the police officer who was convicted of taking bribes from
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: Lamb and to smooth things over. And I also knew
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: his great friend, Brian Francis Murphy, who I don't think
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: was involved in any of these matters, but he knew
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: what Higgins was up to. And he told me that
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: McRae was pure, undistilled evil and that he's capable of anything.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: And I must go back through my old recordings because
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: he talked about him numerous times and I wonder whether
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: there's one or two lines that I've missed in there.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: But in the meantime, watch the post box, watch the
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: email inbox and we'll see.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, you want me to give everyone my email address?
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: No.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: No.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: No, I'll put mine on the end of this and
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: they can send things to me and I'll forward them
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: to you. My email address was well known to people,
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: but we need to keep your– because, I mean, listen,
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: this guy is 77, but I don't think he's any
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: less dangerous than he ever was, frankly.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: No, no.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: So we need to protect your identity, protect you generally,
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: but make sure that he's held accountable. Yeah.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: So the article that you sent me that throws another–
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: link into the situation so in it it states so
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: there was a news article court hears of brothel king's
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: police minders and in it it clearly states that lamb
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: had access to police files around 81 so what was
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: he shown what information did he have what information did
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: he have on mum and anyone else that may have
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: reported anything.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: Did she know too much? Now, Des, thank you very
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: much for today. We're going to talk to you again
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: really soon. But now I'm going to put this out
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: to the universe again. It's worked once. Hopefully it works again.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: Somebody else out there knew Debbie Fay, knew Sandy McRae,
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: knew Jeff Lamb, Paul Higgins, and the other cops involved
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: in the protection racket. What do you know? What do
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: you know? It's time to come forward.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: And even if it's any personal information about, About mum.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: I'd like that as well.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Good. Okay. Excellent. All right. Thank you, Des. As I say,
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: you can get in touch with me on adamshandwriter at gmail.com.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: If you're worried about, you know, your security or confidentiality,
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: you can always call Crime Stoppers on 1-800-333-000. But help
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Des out here. This is the daughter who never got
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: to know her mother, who's lived a hard life. She's
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: come through everything. to live a functional, happy, harmonious life,
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: and she deserves the truth. Wouldn't you? In the same circumstance.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Make sure you get in touch. This has been Adam
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Shant for Real Crime. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: to this episode and supporting this story. Independent storytelling that
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: shapes the world is what Podshape really cares about. Right now,
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: there's thousands of people listening to this show and our
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: other true crimes, and they're completely engaged. More than 10
• 42:47
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• 42:50
  Speaker 1: thought about advertising your business in a podcast, there's a
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: link to reach out in the show notes or head
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: to Podshape.com to book a free call.