Latest / The Smart Cookies podcast / The Manosphere with dr. Lisa Sugiura
Transcript
- zaza: Doctor Lisa Sugiura is a reader in Cybercrime and gender at the School of Criminology and criminal Justice at the University of Portsmouth. I hope I pronounce that Cly Team Strategic innovation fellow and the deputy director of the Saber Crime awareness clinic. Her research focuses on online devience and technology facilitated gender base abuse and sexual violence. She has published on topics including the pharmosutocal Trade Online, research, etics and rape culture Online. Her research projects involved the language of cybersexism, the role of technology and domestic abuse, and extremist and missogenistic behaviors In salle communities. She's the author of the book's respectable devens and purchasing medicine Online, opportunities and risks for consumers and the insult rebellion, The rise of the mamosphere and the virtual war against women, Dr. Sugiura, Welcome to your trash. lisa_sugiura: Thank you for having me zaza: Since you recently published an article about him, Let's start with Andrew Tate, the famous self proclaimed misogynist and influencer, who is currently sitting in jail, I think somewhere in book arrest in Romania on sexual assault and human trafficking charges, although somehow still managing to tweet bad poetry from his jail sale, so much like probably every other guy last year. Also this year my social media feeds were bomb Parted with Andrew Tates, clips and statements, some of which were that women are men's property. That depression doesn't exist, Only being a loser does, and my personal favorite that sleep is for cowards, because real man obviously grind all the time. Now the more I listen to him, the more he just seemed like one of those sad older guys and the local pub. We probably all know who are not doing particularly well and just keep drunkenly. I think that women belong in the kitchen, and that's why the world is so messed up now. in real life, we don't take these types seriously. In fact, they're an example of what not to be and how not to behave. So I guess my question is why are so many people taking and rotate seriously? lisa_sugiura: So absolutely. I mean, I think that's the fundamental point here is that, although to too many included some of it that we, he seems to figure a ridicule. but actually his messages, everything that he has created for himself. This Lthamale persona is incredibly appealing. It has touched a nerve with young men and boys who are somehow struggling with their identity. I feel that he is the only role model that they have That they need to aspire to this very narrow perspective of manhood that they should be controlling and abusing women. That their only importance and self worth is their physique and money and fast cars. and unfortunately they're not really kind of seeing beyond that. S of how damaging and toxic that influence is. zaza: Most of these young men who are Andrew Tate, fans, have like mothers and sisters and female friends, or maybe even daughters in their lives, right people who they care about. And yet when they hear Andrew Tate say, for example, that women are responsible for getting is actually assaulted, they kind of negate these relationships. I just read article on c n N an hour ago where a young woman from Britain detailed how her two brothers, who were her best friends before, suddenly became cold and aggressive And in dominating, once they started following and rotate online, they basically became different people. lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: Maybe this is more of a question for a psychologist or something, but what is so appealing in these messages that it makes some people turn on on folks who, who they've known their whole lives lisa_sugiura: Well, I mean, what is doing is offering them a sort of excuse or a perspective than that for all their problems. So zaza: Right? lisa_sugiura: so we've already identified research shown that it's predominantly younger, younger men and boys that zaza: Yeah, lisa_sugiura: are more susceptible to agitato, Following agitato joined his husbands university. And the atelessence is a hard time anyway, right, Young men and boys are being bombarded now, not just from Andrew Tain his ilk, but from wide main stream that somehow that they're in crisis that it is bad to be a man That movements like me too, have somehow had a really detrimental effect on men, rather than obviously trying to tackle sexual violence. And so there are young men who are feeling threatened, And then you get somebody like Andrew Tate, who presents himself as this maverick. You know, it's kind of cultural. He's offering them this different perspective where all their problems are external. It's not their fault and it obviously presented in a very unnuanced fashion As well. Women are the problem, um, and so uncomfortable as it may seem, then it's easy then for some to Generalize all women to be the same, irrespective of family members, people that that they actually love and care for man. Certainly, through my research have actually seen this where they can still. they can almost reconcile that that kind of belief in women is evil, or that women should be subjugated even with the fact that they still love love family members. But it's almost. It's kind of biological reasoning as well. Well, they can't help it, The women there just born this way, but you know you know they're still lesser than men, so it's just buying into really antiquated ideas of sex roles. zaza: So you can go. I love my mom, but she should follow my orders lisa_sugiura: Yes, yeah, that's how they essentially. Yeah, you know you're my zaza: And lisa_sugiura: mom. zaza: there's no lisa_sugiura: I zaza: problem lisa_sugiura: love zaza: with lisa_sugiura: you, zaza: that. lisa_sugiura: but you're still zaza: Yeah, lisa_sugiura: less than me. You're still worthless because you're a woman. and there's even the tension then of you were born from a woman. zaza: Yeah, lisa_sugiura: There's a resentment there as well that you know they came from. So that's really awkward as well. Address zaza: This doesn't seem like a very comfortable place to have this in your mind, All of these are lisa_sugiura: M. zaza: opposing, you know, views like Okay, I love my mom, you know, but she should be subjugated. My sister's cool. but you know my sister is a woman, so she should do as I say and stuff like I just, it's kind of hard to imagine this being a desirable comfortable place you lisa_sugiura: No, zaza: know from lisa_sugiura: And that's zaza: which to operate lisa_sugiura: that's zaza: in the lisa_sugiura: I mean. zaza: world lisa_sugiura: that's that's really important. It's not healthy. This isn't he presents himself, and there's even been people that support him who say, Oh, he does amazing things for young men challenging depression. He's encouraging young men who would otherwise be isolated to go out, look for a better job or a Ob, or go to the gym and all of those in their own on their own without the context of everything else. he's doing. Yeah, great, but then, as you're already highlighted, he says, depressions for losers says that women should take responsibility or sorry, some responsibility for being raped. And so it's and of course, any any boy or young man that doesn't fit that alpha manhood that the all powerful male who is successful in Particular areas like sex and money and sports and fast cars and things. Well, then they're going to feel less than as well. They're going to feel really inadequate. any way, striving to reach something which is a huge visage. Know how he's made. That is arguably from criminal activity, which he is now being. You know, he's in jail for and from pyramid schemes he is. so so he is actually profiteering from from the people that are following him. People that are looking up to him that are looking for guidance. He is modified, Misogeny. zaza: Right, yeah, yeah, like you said, Besides all of the misogeny, that he's peddling the other part of what makes the Androwtate phenomena so mind boggling is that it's all just an obvious scamp right lisa_sugiura: Yes, zaza: designed to sell his lisa_sugiura: Yes, zaza: atrocious Get rich quick schemes to desperate guys. lisa_sugiura: That's zaza: For lisa_sugiura: it. zaza: all of this you know, self empowering talk. He's actually getting rich by making men feel more victimized or victimized and even more powerless Because he lisa_sugiura: Absolutely zaza: says that everyone is against them right, lisa_sugiura: so there's nothing new. He is following the tried and tested pickup artistry model, zaza: Uh, lisa_sugiura: So zaza: uh, lisa_sugiura: back in back in two thousand and five, we had meal strives as the game, which was a best seller, Global, which gave zaza: Yeah, lisa_sugiura: tips and techniques. Basically, you know, to trick women into into bed treating women is just me. a body's to be seduced right, but that that whole approach of trying to tell me That they are somehow worthless unless they're successful with women. And hey, look s a quick way. Here's some quick techniques to trick them right, and you know it just costs you the sum of ex amount that's been going for years and years. And so he's just capitalized on that same approach. zaza: He also presents himself himself as embodying the perfect form of masculinity right, which is, at least, that's what he's saying, the only way to true independence and happiness. for for all men in this world, he is living his own dream. And lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: yet the man seems royally pissed off all the time. So is anger and essential part of the mamosphere. lisa_sugiura: Well, yes, I mean there's there's different groups within the Manispere and they have. zaza: We're going to talk about that in the lisa_sugiura: Okay. zaza: Yeah, in a second, Yeah, yeah, lisa_sugiura: Yes, zaza: absolutely lisa_sugiura: there is. There is an overriding sense of anger and resentment and bitterness. They're not happy people. Essentially zaza: Okay. I spend a lot of the time on the internet. actually way too much, but that's a separate issue. anyway. I hear this term a lot, but even so, I only have a vague idea of what it actually is. So what is the Man sphere? lisa_sugiura: Okay, So it's a network of blog forums websites where men from different groups come together. They coalesce for the different reasons which united are, by a a hatred of feminism of women Of progression, as well a belief that for society to improve, and predominantly for men's lives to be to be better, and for men to be back in their rightful place at the top of the hierarchy, there needs to be a return to those sort of traditional values and gender roles back. Think back to the nineteen fifties where men were men and women were women, and each knew their place. the men with the bread winners. women should be at home. And and then then the world would be a better place. zaza: Right? Yeah, what is the primary home of the Memosphere Or is it just scattered around lisa_sugiura: Uh, zaza: like I don't know four Chan, or read lisa_sugiura: yeah, zaza: it or hidden message boards, Or how does it work? lisa_sugiura: it's not as if I mean you could you can go. You can find space is called remanisfsite. You can do that, but there is evidence of it all throughout the Internet where you get some dedicated signs in some, shut, down, some reopening, linked with in sales and voluntary celebites on men's rights activists or the pick up artists community, Men, The room way you can get fathers for justice, who I think need to be considered a little bit differently to the rest of the Manisphere because they. re. I think their primary concern is obviosly, one of a very real issue affecting men and the realization that actually women. well, you know, women shouldn't be just deemed the primary care givers of children anyway. So you know that that kind of supports their argument, but you can find even Activity not just on dedicated places and forms, but on main stream social media side. so all of the all of the main big ones, Twitter face book, tick tark, even though they say their rules and regulations say that they don't allow had speech and misogeny, And then you get the more clandestine sites, the sites that are that were designed for abuse and and trolling, And that's their ethos. Basically so all of the Chans for And sixteen keeps going. zaza: Yep, lisa_sugiura: Read it. You even get evidence of manispheractivity and certainly the language is sleeping as well into things like gaming site as well a discord, zaza: Hm. lisa_sugiura: Twitch. and you'll probably do as well get you maniforouusers as well, you know on those sorts of platforms. zaza: All right. you mentioned some of the groups. lisa_sugiura: Yes, zaza: I think you said men's right activists. lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: Men going their own way. lisa_sugiura: yeah, zaza: We already talked about pick up artists. We all know what that is, lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: and in sales as well. And then there's the fathers for what was it again? lisa_sugiura: Father's rights activists, zaza: Fathers writes activists. Okay, we're familiar with pick up artists and we're going a talk about Insel more a lisa_sugiura: Okay, zaza: bit later. But can you break down men's right activists and men going their own way lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: group For us a little bit. Because I'm slightly confused as to what that is lisa_sugiura: Absolutely yeah. So as said, here's kind of commonalities, but the kind of man aims, I would say, probably differ somewhat. So men's rights activists, or m r. S. for short, these are the contemporary manifestation of the the original Men's rights movements which can be dated back to nineteen sixties. Nineteen Seventies, originally started at the Men's liberation movement, which was Ali Feminism. Second wave feminism. The two worked in tandem together. recognizing the problems of rigid gender and sex roles. You know, men, feeling pressure to be the bread winner, Women zaza: Okay. I lisa_sugiura: wanting zaza: did not know that lisa_sugiura: women wanting to be more than sex object or zaza: M. lisa_sugiura: housewives. Although, obviously, if you know if you want to be a house like that's great, but it's about choice, but there was a lot of discord between the two movements. And where is Still have facets of the original Men's liberation movement, where you have male feminists and men who know who are allies, you had a splinter group develop into the Men's rights movement where, instead of really focusing the energies on men's problems, men as victims of domestic abuse, the fact that there's no shelters for these victims, zaza: M. lisa_sugiura: high suicide rate, lots zaza: right. lisa_sugiura: of lots of genuine issues. Know it would be. let's take Away from what women have achieved. So is it a fighting for men's shelters? Let's shut down all the women shelters. So you know you kind of think you're not really helping those that you claim to be concerned about, and that sort of attitude of blaming feminist and blaming women has continued into the men's rights activists today. and really, where you see, sort of Almost like a collaboration, I'd say is thin, so the men's right activists cross over with the old Right as well zaza: Uh, lisa_sugiura: in zaza: huh. lisa_sugiura: terms of M, and I think as well in terms particularly within, maybe American politics, in particular, that you'll really see some of the narratives of the men's right activists kind of fitting within the far right discourse as well. and then men go in their own way. So with thee With this community you have men who have just come to the decision that because women are so inherently evil and problematic that they're just going a cut all times with them, life would be better if there was no interaction with women whatsoever, But the contradiction is many of them are married and it's impossible. I mean, what do they do in work? Do they just not refuse to speak to another woman? Use to speak to a woman in the shop, for example, over. But so they post their stories of how they deliberately ignored a woman, or they haven't spoken to a woman today, and how their life is so much better because of it, but yeah, zaza: So what your your sister calls you and she's like me? Can you help me move And you're just hang up the phone and lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: you're like lisa_sugiura: yeah, zaza: my day is awesome lisa_sugiura: and they would brag about that. zaza: Right right? Okay? So it's more of a of a online thing because lisa_sugiura: Yes, it's zaza: it's lisa_sugiura: performative. zaza: impossible out in the real world, lisa_sugiura: It's really performative zaza: Performative. lisa_sugiura: and that's what zaza: But lisa_sugiura: a zaza: what? lisa_sugiura: lot zaza: What's lisa_sugiura: these groups zaza: what's lisa_sugiura: are. zaza: the aim? What's the aim of what's the ultimate goal of these men going their own way just to be some sort of like a ascetic monk in the desert? Or or I have trouble imagining what's the dream Life here? lisa_sugiura: The aim is, I mean, it's whatever wanted to be that week. Um, zaza: All right, So it's fluid. lisa_sugiura: it's fluid because I mean to be a true mug town. it would be you know you have no interaction, but they also appreciate that in today society which is in favor of women. According to them, it's pretty impossible not to have any interaction, so that doesn't And diminish their mug status. But yeah, zaza: Sorry to what status lisa_sugiura: mugtile, so men going their zaza: Mctowalright, lisa_sugiura: own way, appreviation, zaza: I'm sorry. All right, Mactawright, lisa_sugiura: Yeah, I mean, zaza: Got it. lisa_sugiura: there's also zaza: They love their acronyms, don't they? lisa_sugiura: oh yes, yes, you don't you. don't zaza: Yeah? lisa_sugiura: you? don't say the full. The full names of the community. Is that? zaza: Yeah, lisa_sugiura: Yeah, that that shows you as a complete Norma and outside, I mean, you also get other groups. I didn't mention things zaza: Yeah, lisa_sugiura: like the No fat. zaza: All right, so that's yeah. I know what that one is. lisa_sugiura: You do zaza: That's lisa_sugiura: know that zaza: no masturbation, lisa_sugiura: one. Yes, zaza: no masturbation, And then you get super powers after a couple lisa_sugiura: enlightenment, zaza: of months lisa_sugiura: Basically, zaza: enlightenment, right, lisa_sugiura: and they cross over with again far right groups like the Proud boys Because the proud boys before they disbanded, zaza: Hm, lisa_sugiura: and then I believe they've come back. you know, had the hashtagnoank as well, So a lot of the ideology you know, they kind of shift and they picked up elsewhere. You also get trade cons. So as I said, you know that conservative Far right ideology, so trantcons very much based with that of Christian fundamental is, want to go back to the nineteen fifty, rigid gender roles. Although it's a bit, the term is a bit pajoritive in the manisphere, so not many people say so they'll talk about trdconideology, but not very few people would say. Oh yes, I identify a tradcone. zaza: So were all of these groups kind of born out of the pickup Artists movement? Or lisa_sugiura: No, zaza: is lisa_sugiura: No, zaza: it more complicated than that? lisa_sugiura: this more complicated and certainly they facilitated online that they wouldn't wouldn't be in the current manifestations. It wasn't a digital technologies, but no, as I said, some men's rights activists go pre into that, so not pretty inter, but pretitthe world Wide Web. So zaza: Yep, lisa_sugiura: they you know that the idea that men, some had to strike back for the very survival that society is somehow misandressed and feminism is the scourge. Well that you. now that goes back to the nineteen seventies, And as we pick up artistry, some of these ideas you know they're not. You know, the fact that you know, so seduce women and things like that. I mean these are not. They're not particularly novel. They're just dressed up in a new fashion online. zaza: Yeah, is, is there a part of the memosphere that is just like Let's focus on ourselves, and and all of this stuff without the we have to take back what women have, whatever stole from us or all that stuff. Is there a more reasonable part of the mamosphere, Or is it all Just is the underlying theme of all of these groups? Always, you know, rooted in misogeny. lisa_sugiura: So I mentioned Father's right to activist who zaza: Okay, lisa_sugiura: part of it and I think you know, I think I'm quite trying to be quite careful about distinnots of homogenizing them with all the zaza: Yeah, lisa_sugiura: abuse and offensiveness, but I mean there is, there's going to be pockets where there's going to be less of the sort of abusive behaviors. But unfortunately, The majority now of these spaces have been manipulated, and the that's they take enter stage now, the mesogeny, the races, the home pout, All of that that That. That is what you will find more often than anything that is supportive or healthy, zaza: What is Red pill or Red lisa_sugiura: Right. zaza: pilling? lisa_sugiura: Okay, zaza: as it pertains to the atmosphere, What does that mean? lisa_sugiura: Yes, zaza: I know it from the Matrix? lisa_sugiura: yeah, yeah, so it's an ideology that's predominantly link with men's right, active as M. r. S. As you said, it is co opted from the Matrix, which is ironic given so it's essentially if you have the choice of taking the red or the blue pill, like you see Nino's character in the film Where, if you take the blue pill, you know you're just you're just happy to To live in the facade. Basically, and if you take the red pill, you're waking up to life's reality that the society is sued in favor of women. women, inherently and biologically evil men. Men are the true alpes, but they are repressed by the the qualities against them in society, And the reason I said it's ironic is the kiss. S who made the film have said that the Red pill Blue Pill allegory is about transgenderism, which is something that is not recognized in the Manisphere In fact, transphobia is prevalent in the Manisphere Because the very, the very notion of trans people. their very existence is denied. So they believe in. They believe that by no, biological by biology is immutable. So The very fact that they continue to use this this allegory when that's not what it was created for. zaza: Yeah, lisa_sugiura: In fact, the real opposite. Just you know, I just I just think well, that's very interesting. zaza: Yeah, that reminds me of the movie Wall Street from the eighties. I don't know if you've seen it with Michael Douglas, lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: With Oliver Stone, directed that movie and he said that the main villain Gordon Gecko, played by Michael Douglas, was designed as a really despicable character, And then he was co opted by all of these Wall Street types who thought he was the coolest guy. And then lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: they imitated his fashion and all that stuff, Though it seems that it happens quite often lisa_sugiura: Clan. zaza: anyway, He Researcher, You must spend a lot of time on these chans and message boards and blocks and stuff. Did you ever catch yourself being kind of affected by all of this content? I mean, do you do you think we're all susceptible to this kind of dangerous thinking If we spend enough time devouring this content even if we originally hold completely opposite views? lisa_sugiura: That's a really, really interesting and important question. Actually, so yes, I spent almost. I think well, it was about three years without a break, Um, zaza: Wow, lisa_sugiura: immersed in, usually in cell sites and communities, but also the broader Manisphere. I also interviewed self identified current and Forman cells as well on Yes, are you. I'm not too proud to admit it deeply affected me, although I thought I thought I'd taken all all all the steps to kind of prepare myself for this, and also may be a little naively thought. I'm a criminologist, You know, this is. this is my. This is my work. You know, I understand, you know the the depravity of human nature, but I was more concerned going into the research, particularly when I directly inter acted with him selves about my online security. So things like my social media accounts and what they could find out about me, I was more concerned perhaps for that side of it rather than my own emotional well being, and an, Yeah, I mean as a woman researching misogynists, spending a long Time just reading deeply hateful post. Yeah, that that obviously affected me and really kind of kind of it home to me. You know about, you know about my place as a woman in society, but also that point you said, and I know you kind of alluding to likeradicalization, Like how easy is that it happened And I mean, it's certainly not the case that you just A few things and you instantly indoctrinated, you know, And and there's there's external internal factors. What else has gone on in your life? And obviously the person you are, Lots of other things, or why people might be more vulnerable to forms of radicalization, But there is certainly something about spending a long time being immersed in this sort of content without having any counter narratives as well. so of course I've got all of that in the work I do. I can spend hours and hours researching, but I'm also talking then a lot about. Obviously other things. I'm not just engaged in inselideologies, But what really? what was really stark for me was when I realized was becoming decentitised zaza: Yeah, lisa_sugiura: post, which I would have been horrified at early on in the research I was just becoming. I don't an ay complate About, but they weren't affecting me as much, and that was the wake up call for me where I thought No, I want to be. I know. this probably sounds a little bit masticistic, and I don't mean it that way, but want to realize that they are hateful that they are abusive. I want to understand that they are harmful. I don't want to just take it. You know. just go. Oh, look, there is another other racistomisogonistic post. I never want to realize How how bad they are And so yeah, that that process of decensitization I think it's really clear that that people go through that people go through that who then don't have any any healthy narratives or material or people outside to kind of help them cope with that. So so so yeah, you can. Under And how, how people partially those who may be vulnerable as well, You know that that they're in a bad place in their lives. They're looking for answers, looking for solidarity and support. Unfortunately is the last thing they often get in these places. But yeah, that if that's all people are engaging with that all they're exposed to you. Can you can certainly see how these ideas can start to encroach on people's identity Es. zaza: It's a bit scary. I remember spending just a couple of like ten years ago. I spent a couple of months on the random board of Four Chan, lisa_sugiura: Oh zaza: and it was pretty bad. After just a couple of months I was like this is not good for me. I felt that my thought processes were somehow changing lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: and you know, so, for someone who doesn't have an academic background or support like you said and is younger, it just seems like Easy for them to get completely sucked in fast. lisa_sugiura: Yeah, absolutely. I mean. I also had times where I felt pretty nihilistic And that's not usually zaza: Yeah, lisa_sugiura: my sort of demeanour. Is that realization of that's what? In sale? That's how in sales act. I mean, I certainly didn't feel like I was becoming an insult. Not that I'd be allowed. I could be a Femcell, but it couldn't be an insel, because as a woman you wouldn't Allowed. But yeah, that that thought of. Oh, I'm having some pretty dark thoughts. Now when did I become fatalistic? You know, you make you make the connection that. Yeah, I think I need to break now from this sort of content. zaza: Creepy anyway, So the most well known group of the anmisphere, We mentioned them a couple of times already are the insults men who form a sub culture around the fact that their involuntary celebte, they're also infamous because they have perpetrated many deadly straight up terrorist attacks right, such as the Isle of Vista killings. I think that's Elliot Roger or the Toronto Van attack. You wrote a book about them called the Insel rebellion. I believe it's publicly accessible online. lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: What makes an individual go down this extremely dark path where they proclaim the proclaim themselves as hopeless outcasts. lisa_sugiura: Yeah, so so as I said I, one of my main sort of research questions was to try and understand why people would become an insult. What makes an Ins? Why would you self identify as one, Given the fact that it seems a pretty, a pretty depressing existence. And and so what I found, And this is. This is a difficult thing. Because you, I mean, even The interviews. I feel like there's that. I need to kind of go beyond the surface of what was said to me, and and certainly look beyond what you know what people are posting online, because online you'll find lots of narratives about and it's not about becoming an inset for. for in self it's what they call. You know. It's waking up to know their life circumstance Like this is something they always were That they just didn't realise it before. And so how they think about that process to finding out there in Insel, If you want to believe their wording is finding like mind ther, It's finding the science. It's it's zaza: Right, lisa_sugiura: hearing other people's experiences which are long with their own. It's being provided with those seductive explanations for all their Roblems that are external to themselves as well. So it's other contradiction. On the one hand, there, waking up to the fact that they are the lowest of the low. You know you, You're basically this come of the earth, but actually can't help that. That's that's You were just born that way and it's because you know just because you've borne this way, you could be happy, but women won't let you be because they don't want to be with you. Basically, Um, so then the stories are very much that of rejection. That loads the stories of rejection, which are interesting. Given the I would hazard a guess, most people will have been rejected at some point in their life That there will be an experience where you may have liked somebody romantically, but they didn't feel that same way about you. zaza: Oh yeah, lisa_sugiura: I'm Saying that's not painful because obviously at the time it really is, particularly when you're at a lesson, but it's almost like a rite of passage. I'm not saying everybody has to go through it, but most people do go through these things, But for Inself, it shapes them, It shapes their whole identity, their character. They put everything on that one experience or experiences, and then they will. they will Struggle. Think, because I've had that rejection and I can never approach another woman again. they then learn about in sales, and then it will just makes sense basically zaza: M, lisa_sugiura: and going back to the point I said earlier about having to be kind of careful critical about some of the explanations that given for being an Insel as well, there are papers now that coming out in the academic community, which Say that the demarcake between misogenist in sales and in sales, I, I appreciate that you do. I think we need to realize that in sales are not all homogenous, Um, but I think kind of saying, there's misogenis in sales, and then there's inalesslike. there's good inslesindthis bad in sales, And I think there's a lot more murkier than that, and also, once you start labeling one particular group misogynist than that's, just given them license As well. but anyway, zaza: M. lisa_sugiura: I think it's useful to say misoginsinsells, but De stand kind of more beyond that, But but some of the work that's coming out, and I've certainly seen this written online and also in my interviews where explanations for becoming an Ins involved things like mental health and depression and diversity, and I feel very uncomfortable about this because I think when it's stigmatizing these all To stick mitized issues to, it's not a default As well. We don't just want to say all in self have mental health issues and anybody with mental health issue would then be vulnerable to becoming an inset. I think there might. there might be a link. And actually, I certainly talked about that, my book that there's there is an association, and certainly when people are more vulnerable that they could then be seduced by these ideologies more easier. But I don't Never just want to kind of make it as a default, and also, I think it's important as well that they, the mental mental illness or, and misogeny and offensive behavior they're not. They're not mutually. They don't have to be mutually exclusive as well, and it's not an excuse as well. even if somebody is mentally and well, if they are then espousing really horrible, misogynistic and hateful and races things, they could still be misogynistic and hateful and resistant. Um, you know, they can be both basically as well. it's not. zaza: M. lisa_sugiura: It's not an excuse, And I mean then there's plenty of people who struggle with these issues who are not abusive as well, so I think that's that's A, Was import, important and and partially when we're talking about in sales now, and here's obviously lots of discussion about whether or not they should be deemed to be terrorists and things like that, You know as an extremist group, But we don't talk about mental health. When we talk about other extremist or terrorist groups. We're not saying nobody was saying with Isis. Oh wonder, I wonder if they were doing this because they were mentally unwell. Pretty sure you had mentally unwell people in there as well, But it's interesting how the narrative is kind of moving to that direction to kind of almost excuse some of the ideologies, which I'm a little bit uncomfortable with, but as I said, I also know am acutely Where the Yes, there are venrabilities and yes, there are people in the insult community that have these issues and they genuinely need support. And even you get. some people may be become insel because they were looking for that support in the first place and they got swept up in the toxicity. But yeah, I think we just need to look upon this a bit more critically. zaza: What are the basic tenets of insult ideology? How do they see the world? You mentioned biology already. But lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: there must be more. I know. they're using special terms. I don't know. if that's insult, specifically, this chat and Stacy lisa_sugiura: Oh, zaza: and Virgin lisa_sugiura: that. zaza: and chat lisa_sugiura: A zaza: and all lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: that stuff. lisa_sugiura: that is Insel. zaza: Okay, Can we go through that a little lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: bit lisa_sugiura: so that's that's the kind of lexicon of incels, but zaza: Right? lisa_sugiura: it has kind of permeated elsewhere in the mamisphere as well. So we mentioned the Red Pill already, and that is a ideology that has been embraced by incales. but but at a lesser extent, when you compare that with the so called black pill to the black pill is Extension of that red pill. So they've woken up, they realized that society is unfairly structure in favor of women, and feminism is really bad and men are now disempowered. And then the black pill is that realization that your circumstance as an insel becaus, like the cementing of being an in Sal. your circumstance is unchangeable is immutable. So that's where you get that nihilistic world view that. zaza: All right, So you can't do anything about lisa_sugiura: That's zaza: it lisa_sugiura: it. That's it you. This. This is why they say things like I didn't become an in cell. I was always an in cell. I know it just just took me till whatever time for me to realize that, And so that that's the black pill. and with the black pill, Actually, and I really kind of had to interrogate for this because okay, what is? I mean? I understand what it's about, but what is it? What is it? O knowin terms of people believing in the black Bill, how what is And actually broken down? It's just lots of pseudo scientific studies and surveys from dating its that they use to support it, and there's also a manipulation of theories from evolutionary psychology and biology as well that they use to then say you know, Look, we have scientifically proven this point about the world. You know World as it is, and so there's certain ideas within it which did not originate within sales, that they have then twisted to suit the their philosophy. So you get things like hypergamy, which comes from like the Indian cast system, where it's about marrying up, so families would want their daughter to marry somebody richer. So they get they get the money The diary right, So that's hypergamy, Marrying Up so in sales, believe all women a hypergamous, that they're only interested in money and appearance. Then you get things like the eight twenty rule, which is, it's a manipulation of paretos principle where you had the wealth distributed in Italy, and this is actually you've got. So you've got. Let me get this right. You've got eight percent of women who are come Eating for the twenty percent of men, zaza: Right. lisa_sugiura: and then vice versa because women are only driven by looks, And then you've got From that you've got look where you. It's about changing your appearance to make your life better so you can see. Actually, there's a cross over with Andrew Tate, for example, even though he's not an Insel and I don't know he's not, he's not necealy connected with in sales, Pers and they certainly don't. It's not as if in sales are, Think him, either, He is the actualization of the chat. as he said, About the most best, the best looking guy, You know, he's white. He's muscular. he's got. you know, he's got incredible sexual prowess. Basically, but that idea that you can change your appearance to improve your life and it involves things like bone smashing it, take hammers to their faces Because they believe that a more chisel definition is going to make them more handsome, But that completely undermines the black pill. that says their life circumstance s unchangeable So they're trying to change it. But then so mass? you know. Surprisingly, it's just full of mass contradiction. But yeah, so things like the Halo effect as well, which is psychological concept where good good looking people and more Favored in society, where there's been studies that show things like in job interviews that an attractive person is more likely to get a job over a non attractive person. And of course, what mean by attractive conventionally attractive, So know societal standards of what is good looking. So there are. this is what is uncomfortable within sales. There are things which makes sense. There's things to be challen, There's things to kind of be discussed here. They make some valid points, which you know is you know, it's almost uncomfortable amongst the cacophany of abuse, But then it's the way that they manipulate it and present it and then use all the the really the words that they've got their own language. as you said, Chad, Stacy, the most attractive women and Becky's who's studious, Nod and women. Then List goes on for women, Women are never referred to women, their females, and then things like voids, because they're devoid of any humanity, Their robots and things like toilets and holes, and it just gets worse and worse and worse and worse, And there's lots of words which have sale on the end for the various forms of in sales. There's even the racially diverse in sales, which have some pretty race kind of words attached to them as well, And the scene is lower even lower on the hierarchy, if that's even possible, because of course whiteness is what is revered, but yeah, lots. zaza: So what about the Alpha Beta Sigma thing? I see this Sigma thing everywhere these days, like on on Instagram and like various mems and stuff, And I have no clue what that means. lisa_sugiura: It's the hierarchy, So I zaza: Okay, lisa_sugiura: mean it's the hierarchy, So you've got the the look scale one to ten. you know, so alpha child? zaza: So it's always about looks. It's lisa_sugiura: Yes, zaza: not really about money. it's more about lisa_sugiura: well, zaza: attractiveness. lisa_sugiura: they go hand in hand, but I mean for in zaza: Okay, lisa_sugiura: sales for insults, I mean they appreciate that if you know, a rich man can still get a woman, zaza: Yeah, lisa_sugiura: but they do still prirartise. Looks That that seems to be the driving zaza: Hm. lisa_sugiura: factor zaza: Okay, So what's a Sigma? Then I know Alpha Beta. whatever, But what's then the Sigma thing? lisa_sugiura: So wasn't sure that Sigma was part of it. It wasn't something that came zaza: Okay, lisa_sugiura: across in my research. I know that's something that's kind of coming out now, and I'm kind of trying of work out where it fits on the scale, zaza: Yeah, yeah, all right, all lisa_sugiura: if zaza: right. lisa_sugiura: I'm honest, zaza: okay. All good. lisa_sugiura: because the betzetright, I mean in sales, refer themselves as beater sometimes, but to zaza: Yeah, yeah, lisa_sugiura: beat a still higher, I mean the true it like you ll tell, the true kind of hard cold black building sets where they say site. But of course Sigma is after you know beater than zaza: Yeah, lisa_sugiura: you got Sigma. So that that's I mean, that's work that I need to look into zaza: That lisa_sugiura: more zaza: that one goes out to Jessica Fletcher or something? Okay for you for your book. You talk to a lot of insels you said. lisa_sugiura: Ten. zaza: Did you get a sense of what kind of lives these people are leading And what are there circumstances outside of their digital lives? Or are they like vastly different? Are there some commonalities that you lisa_sugiura: Well, zaza: could discern? lisa_sugiura: interestingly, Um, I think there was only one that said that they admitted to Annybody, off line that they were in insult. Everybody zaza: Okay, lisa_sugiura: else kept their Insel identity secret and they said it was because they wanted to avoid the stigma. Basically that was now attached to the community, but also interestingly, they were really keen to impress that they were highly educated, but of course then that that validate What they're telling me as well. I'm really, you know, I've got loads of qualifications they got. They wanted to say they had good jobs. Of course, I'd be like. Well, Surely you could get a woman. Then you know, if you've got a good job, you've got money. We know this, and then hey say. Oh no. my looks are so abhorrent that. just this is why I said earlier. That looks still trump money, zaza: Okay, lisa_sugiura: but they. zaza: so these are not like people living in their mother's lisa_sugiura: Oh, zaza: basements. lisa_sugiura: well, that's that's what they wanted to tell me, though, again, this is what they're telling me, and that's interesting in itself that they wanted me to think that in every other area of their life, aside from sex and romance, that they were somehow doing okay, they were successful. they, although ost, of them would say that they didn't have you know. they didn't speak to women as well. When I asked them about their relationship in family Members. some would say you know, know all women are pains, or know them fine, or they would make that they would distinguish between their female relatives and other women. You know my mother's fine. She's the only person only women that I can trust that sort of thing, But it was really interesting. They wanted to challenge the stereo type of insults being neat, so not in education or employment or training. You know, basically the sort of basement They wanted zaza: Yeah, lisa_sugiura: to challenge that unset, but also which was unnerving is where one said to me. You'd be surprised. Know insult everywhere Know, they're not just so isolated. You're probably working with lots of insults who really hate you, which was a bit nice. zaza: Okay, so these actually might be people that are in sales online. but you know we know them in our personal lives, and that's possible and we would never think that they're in sales. In fact, lisa_sugiura: Oh, you cut out. then. zaza: All right, no, no problem. I'll just repeat that, So it's actually possible that some of our, some of the people that we know in our lives and we never think of as in sales are online. Actually in sales. lisa_sugiura: Um, sorry, zaza: You can't just tell from lisa_sugiura: So you cut out again. Then zaza: Hello, lisa_sugiura: I can hear you now. zaza: Hello, All right, perfect. Yeah, I just wanted to ask, so it's actually possible that some, some of the people in our lives man might be insults online. but offline you could never guess. lisa_sugiura: I mean, that's what they wanted again. That's what they wanted to zaza: So lisa_sugiura: tell zaza: that's lisa_sugiura: me. zaza: what they were saying, but that's lisa_sugiura: That's what zaza: not necessarily lisa_sugiura: they were saying. zaza: the truth. lisa_sugiura: Um, I mean, I would. why. I would critically question. that is if they. you know if they were well, it is not. I don't say. they definitely weren't well educated or they didn't have jobs. Um, but to me the biggest issue was that they weren't interacting with women and they didn't have the confidence to speak Women. Not even in. I mean, appreciate. they were speaking with me on line and they were really. I mean, they were really forthcoming. They were very eager to talk. In fact, there was no reluctance there. so it was. it was as if you give them a platform they'll speak. But but yeah, the commonality was that you know they don't interact with women. And of course you think well. If you Have this, you know, if you have this other life, then surely you would be interacting with women sometimes. So I just seen that the Tories didn't marry up. zaza: Was there anything that surprised you when you were talking to insults? lisa_sugiura: Um, Yeah, so what surprised me was the fact that I really struggled with feeling sympathetic for them at times. This is not to deny the the misogeny, the abuse, so not to excuse it in any way, shape or form. but you know they are. They really did open up about stories of vulnerability beyond the I was rejected The age of thirteen when I asked to girl out, you know actual things that sounded really hard. you know in their childhood and things, and say again, the mental health issues and things. So I, for me, there was that tension to try and navigate between. Yes, I can sympathize, I can recognize there is humanity and that's always always important. Though people are not one dimensional, are they? They can do these really abhorrent things and then actually still be. You still have some decent qualities, or say, Need some support and be genuinely suffering in some respect, But of course this, that's all happening together. It doesn't can. things don't cancel each other out. But yeah, you know, I thought I do feel. you know I do. I did feel sympathy, and I kind of kind of maybe didn't think I would do that. basically, zaza: Okay, we're drawing to a close. Up until now, young men who kind of feel left behind have been snatched up by various right wing figures like Jordan Peterson, offering pretty stale conservative. You know, solutions such as you know, be more like a lobster or something, but recently there's been some talk on the left about especially working class men facing more and more structural disadvantages like I don't know if you know Richard Reeves. He published the book called of boys and men, lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: I haven't It, but I believe it's about the rapidly growing education and pay gaps lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: in favor of women, and the rising alienation and suicide rates, especially amongst young men. I watched an interview with him and he says we should keep having a conversation about the advancement of women, but also have a conversation about what could we do for men who are struggling. lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: Do you think that's part of the solution to? I don't know, Insuldem, or lisa_sugiura: Oh no, zaza: or the man is fair, lisa_sugiura: yeah, no, absolutely, we really do need to be involving young men and boys in these conversations and having them from a much much earlier age is too late to start talking about things like healthy relationships and consent and gender quality. When their teen age s. they're online much earlier and they're on gaming side and things like that and their ideas. You know. they're already forming their kind of world views and stuff, and kind of trying to kind of grapple with, You know, with kind of complexities of their lives and stuff long before so absolutely there's a real place for education. And yet it's about men and boys being allied to women. But yes, recognizing that the same structures that are oppressing women are oppressing men too, as well. you know the when you get some andutateing, there's just this one way to be a man. there's hypeormusculine, which is so unrealistic as well, and the encouragement of coercive control like this is. this is how you say Women is essentially you abuse them. you know you know, and it's also really condescending. you know, kind of saying. Oh yeah, so manages. You're just going to be aggressive and abuse. right, you know, you know when men don't need to be like that, and I probably say most men don't want to be. They don't want to be deemed aggressive and abusive and misogynist, So yeah, absolutely need to be having those those conversations, the support. but it's not. I think. It's beyond that as well, though I think. I mean, I mentioned briefly about things like whether not in sole terris. Certainly there can be more done in terms of policy and social mediate, platforms in terms of not know, not tolerating some of zaza: M. lisa_sugiura: the really zaza: Hm, lisa_sugiura: hateful content and things more more representation in tech because they're not really understanding who has been disproportionately abused online. But yes, there's lots of different approaches, but I think going back To you know your question about should we be supporting young men and boys? Well, Yes, absolutely, I think there's very real problems that are facing young men and boys in our societies today. zaza: As a bit of an Eastern European come, basically a James Bond villain. I lisa_sugiura: Uh, zaza: have to ask you the following at the end what's the link between capitalism and man lisa_sugiura: Oh, zaza: Is Phere, lisa_sugiura: oh yeah. of course it is. Of course it is. zaza: Right, lisa_sugiura: I mean right. okay, I think focusing on the communities themselves. I'm gonna say, say how the Manisphere has developed. Right is profit driven. Social media companies and the tech companies they don't care about using safety. zaza: Right, lisa_sugiura: they zaza: yeah, lisa_sugiura: care about profit. right, they care about clicks. attention. Like what's going to get? the you know The the most views and things like that. So they re huge part of this problem in terms of propagating the ideologies as well. But yeah, Capitalism undepends everything doesn't. It goes hand in hand with all the rest of the impressions absolutely, And I mean, we go back to who we started with. And what is he driven by? right? You know, he is driven by money Right zaza: Hustle University lisa_sugiura: exactly Now. He's a hustler, Is there? He's not even trying to hide it. So so yeah, I think you know capitalism. Is you know? a driving voice of these communities? zaza: Last question. The title of this podcast is you're a trash, So I have to ask you something trashy at the end. What is a Femcell? You lisa_sugiura: Oh zaza: dropped that on me during the interview. lisa_sugiura: so female in sale. Basically, although I mean in sale, zaza: Is that an actual thing? lisa_sugiura: Yes, yeaheahabsolutely, is an actual thing. I mean N sale originally was for anybody, Doesn't matter in respective gender, but it's since been zaza: Okay, lisa_sugiura: mostly appropriated by men. men who have an agenda against women. But yeah, there are. there are em sels and offshoot. You know, women who struggle to find romantic in Relationships, but they're not viewed as real in cells by mail in cells because they believe that regardless of your circumstance as a woman, you will always find a man that wants to sleep with you because you have your sexual market value. Even if you're deemed conventionally ugly, you will man will still still be a man that sleep with that woman. So therefore a woman can never ever be an insult. zaza: Okay, so they exist, lisa_sugiura: M. zaza: but lisa_sugiura: Hm. zaza: they're not part of the community. They're not part of the lisa_sugiura: You get zaza: mamosphere lisa_sugiura: well, you get zaza: or insult. lisa_sugiura: some. Certainly on Facebook. You get some closed groups that they in sell. They actually use involuntary celibate to try and distinguish now from inside, zaza: Okay, lisa_sugiura: and they zaza: Wow, lisa_sugiura: do allow women, And that's you know. That's a bit of a clue as well where it's like the more misogynistic and probably the ones that are like no women allowed. So be no females or voids, or whatever horrible term they're using for women that day. But yeah, And you get Femcel communities as well. zaza: This is all fascinating. Thank you so much for taking the time. I know you had a cold, but you. still? You still did it. lisa_sugiura: I zaza: Thanks lisa_sugiura: got zaza: so lisa_sugiura: through zaza: much. I lisa_sugiura: it. zaza: really appreciate it. lisa_sugiura: Thank zaza: Yeah, yeah, lisa_sugiura: you. zaza: we got through it. Where can people follow your work or find your books lisa_sugiura: Yeah, zaza: or would lisa_sugiura: so zaza: you like to share any of your social media accounts? lisa_sugiura: yes, So my book the Insel Rebellion is open access, so that means it is free to read online. Just Google. It's available from the publishers side, but I think if you just google it, you'd be able to be able to access that and I'm on Twitter at Lisa and score secure, zaza: Awesome, thanks again. Thanks so much. this was wonderful. I hope we get to talk about this again. There's so much stuff to unpack there, lisa_sugiura: Brilliant, Thank you so much