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Problematic Sexual Behaviors with Laney Knowlton · The Trauma Therapist

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gamiferson.
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Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
0:07
Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
0:11
Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show.
0:15
Speaker 1: Five four, three, two and one. Our folks, welcome back
0:19
Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm very excited to have as my
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Speaker 1: guest today, Doctor Laney Nolton. Laney, welcome, Thank you.
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Speaker 2: It's really nice to be here. Thank you for having me.
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Speaker 1: Appreciate it so. Doctor Nolton is a licensed marriage and
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Speaker 1: Family therapist supervisor licensed in multiple states, a certified sex therapist,
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Speaker 1: and president of the Society for the Advancement of Sexual Health.
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Speaker 1: She's a creator of the Connected Recovery model, which combines
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Speaker 1: a treatment of problematic sexual behaviors and fidelity and betrayal
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Speaker 1: recovery with relational counseling and sex therapy to an attachment
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Speaker 1: focused lens. She has authored multiple books, most recently Healing
0:59
Speaker 1: from betray Infidelity and Problematic Sexual Behaviors. We talked about
1:04
Speaker 1: that and everything else here. Lend you. Welcome to the podcast.
1:09
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I'm really excited to talk with
1:11
Speaker 2: you today.
1:12
Speaker 1: Awesome? All right. So before we get going, before you
1:15
Speaker 1: say anything, where are you from originally? And where are
1:20
Speaker 1: you currently?
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Speaker 2: So I grew up in Massachusetts. I currently live in
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Speaker 2: northern Utah, and I have an apartment in Dallas because
1:26
Speaker 2: that's where my office is. Wow, all over the place.
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Speaker 1: Okay, very interesting, all right, So let's dive in how
1:34
Speaker 1: the heck did this did this start? For you?
1:37
Speaker 2: So? I have six kids, and when I was pregnant
1:40
Speaker 2: with my fourth or no, after I had my fourth,
1:43
Speaker 2: right before I had my fifth, I went back to
1:45
Speaker 2: grad school to be a marriage and family therapist. And
1:48
Speaker 2: during one of my residencies, a one of my classmates
1:52
Speaker 2: was talking about the things that she was doing, which
1:55
Speaker 2: had to do with where she works with sex workers
1:57
Speaker 2: that were on the street to help get them some sources.
2:01
Speaker 2: And so she's talking about this and it sounded super
2:05
Speaker 2: interesting to me. So I said, where do I sign up?
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Speaker 2: How can I help? And so I ended up in
2:10
Speaker 2: some of the worst parts of Dallas in the middle
2:12
Speaker 2: of the night. Once a month, they do the Dallas
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Speaker 2: Police Department, Dallas County Sheriff's Department does sex workers sting
2:21
Speaker 2: once a month, and so we went and we would
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Speaker 2: give them resources, We give them food and clothing, and
2:29
Speaker 2: people would donate their time and we'd talk to them
2:31
Speaker 2: and find out what's going on. Because they realized they
2:34
Speaker 2: were picking up the same folks every month and they
2:36
Speaker 2: wanted to try to end the cycle. So we had
2:38
Speaker 2: twenty minutes to talk to them, evaluate their needs, and
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Speaker 2: then talk them into going to treatment instead of jail,
2:44
Speaker 2: because at that point it was something that they needed
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Speaker 2: to go to jail for if they were picked up
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Speaker 2: for soliciting sex work and.
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Speaker 1: Hang on, So what about that was fascinating to you
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Speaker 1: when you said your classmate was talking to you and
3:00
Speaker 1: something just lit up. Why talk to us about that?
3:05
Speaker 2: It felt like I could make a difference, and it
3:08
Speaker 2: felt like this was something that really mattered. We were
3:10
Speaker 2: looking at people, not just at Like. I love research.
3:15
Speaker 2: I think it's super important and I really try to
3:18
Speaker 2: focus put an empirical lens on anything that I do.
3:23
Speaker 2: Hence a reason like I went to Rutledge to try
3:25
Speaker 2: to get my book published to make sure that I
3:27
Speaker 2: had the empirical backing. But at its core, it's about
3:30
Speaker 2: people and if I'm able to connect to people that
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Speaker 2: are hurting and help them to be able to not hurt.
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Speaker 2: That's that's my bread and butter.
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Speaker 1: What was it about the sex worker part, because then
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Speaker 1: that's a niche, that's a specific niche. And some people
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Speaker 1: were like, well, I want to help people who were
3:53
Speaker 1: have addictions, which wouldn't exclude that population necessarily, But why
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Speaker 1: that niche and why do you think you could make
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Speaker 1: a specific difference for those individuals.
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Speaker 2: Now that was only the beginning. Currently, I don't work
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Speaker 2: with a whole lot of sex workers at the moment.
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Speaker 2: What I specialize in our people with problematic sexual behavioral
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Speaker 2: patterns and which can be up to and including compulsive
4:15
Speaker 2: sexual behavior disorder and those who have been betrayed. And
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Speaker 2: to me, it just opened the field to look at
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Speaker 2: the impact of sexuality. The taboo neis about discussing it.
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Speaker 2: We don't talk to There are so many populations that
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Speaker 2: are experiencing pain and we're afraid to talk to them
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Speaker 2: about it. So it had more to do with these
4:39
Speaker 2: people need help and nobody wants to talk with them,
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Speaker 2: and that to me is the common theme. And as
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Speaker 2: I talked to them, I remember one person showing up
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Speaker 2: and she was talking about how she had a husband
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Speaker 2: who was really awesome who provided her with a lot
4:55
Speaker 2: of stability, and it just wasn't exciting enough for her.
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Speaker 2: I'm like, what would make somebody pick that? And how
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Speaker 2: can I help them? I also specialize in sexual abuse,
5:06
Speaker 2: so that ends up those threads all connect A lot
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Speaker 2: of the people who struggle with problematic sexual behavioral patterns
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Speaker 2: have experienced sexual abuse. And actually a lot of the
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Speaker 2: people who have been betrayed also have that in their history,
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Speaker 2: and the betrayal can trigger emotions connected to that. So
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Speaker 2: it feels like it all connects for me.
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Speaker 1: So let's talk about how things unfold it for you
5:32
Speaker 1: after that, such that you got into these various kind
5:36
Speaker 1: of tributaries of adventures, if you will. So I.
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Speaker 2: Was looking for experience, and that because I was a
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Speaker 2: stay at home mom and had no job experience. I
5:50
Speaker 2: had been a stay at home mom for over a decade,
5:52
Speaker 2: so I was able to do it's called the prostitute
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Speaker 2: Diversion Initiative, and so that was some of my experience.
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Speaker 2: And then the office I ended up working in, which
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Speaker 2: was a private practice, they say that they specialize in
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Speaker 2: pornography addiction and sex addiction. I don't use those terms currently,
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Speaker 2: although I have credentials that I'm a certified sex addiction therapist.
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Speaker 2: He sat. However, I think that the term sex addiction
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Speaker 2: is currently used as an umbrella, but the language tells
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Speaker 2: people that it's an addiction instead of being able to
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Speaker 2: understand the current studies show that it's an impulse control disorder,
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Speaker 2: and not everybody who struggles with problematic behavioral patterns fit
6:34
Speaker 2: that end of the continuum. So that's why I don't
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Speaker 2: use that. That's a side note. But so as I
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Speaker 2: worked in that practice, I saw people's pain. There weren't
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Speaker 2: any groups available for females that were struggling with problematic
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Speaker 2: sexual behaviors. So I started.
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Speaker 1: Wouldn't defined what does that mean? Problematic sexual behaviors?
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Speaker 2: So that is a generalized umbrella. It is any behavior
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Speaker 2: that's problematic to you, that is incongruent with who you are,
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Speaker 2: incongruent with who you want to be, that goes against
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Speaker 2: your morals and standards.
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Speaker 1: So it's self diagnosed in a sense.
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Speaker 2: That's my opinion. I think it very much has to
7:11
Speaker 2: do with our morals, standards, our relational contracts, what we
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Speaker 2: promise to others, what we promise to ourselves, whether or
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Speaker 2: not it's impacting us. To me, those are all questions
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Speaker 2: we need to ask.
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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, so man, you've had some really interesting experiences,
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Speaker 1: so continue on.
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Speaker 2: So the office that I was working in specialized in
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Speaker 2: that I realized there weren't any resources for females who
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Speaker 2: are struggling with it. There were also almost no resources
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Speaker 2: for people who had been betrayed. It focuses on the
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Speaker 2: resources focus on men who have betrayed within primary relationships
7:55
Speaker 2: that include marriage that are heterosexual, and some of the resources,
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Speaker 2: a few of them, were available for females who had
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Speaker 2: been betrayed within marriages that were heterosexual. And there weren't
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Speaker 2: resources across the board, the same level of resources for
8:12
Speaker 2: those who had been betrayed versus those who were struggling
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Speaker 2: with the behaviors. And there certainly weren't resources for anything
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Speaker 2: outside of heterosexual relationships that were monogamous.
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Speaker 1: So I sounds familiar. Yeah.
8:26
Speaker 2: I started to pull in all the tools that I
8:29
Speaker 2: learned from different trainings that I went to and try
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Speaker 2: to put the pieces together because I think we have
8:36
Speaker 2: a lot of the pieces, they're just not connected. So,
8:39
Speaker 2: as a marriage and family therapist, there were no classes
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Speaker 2: on infidelity in my master's program, which is not to
8:45
Speaker 2: bash my master's program, because there are no classes anywhere
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Speaker 2: in any master's program. I don't understand how you become
8:52
Speaker 2: a marriage and family therapist without learning about how to
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Speaker 2: treat infidelity. And people who specialize in sex therapy usually
9:01
Speaker 2: aren't trained in relational counseling. They're usually not trained in
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Speaker 2: problematic sexual behaviors, and they're not trained in treating betrayal.
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Speaker 2: People who are trained to treat problematic sexual behaviors have
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Speaker 2: very little, if any training, usually in relational counseling or
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Speaker 2: sex therapy or betrayal. That they're just not connected. And
9:18
Speaker 2: when I saw those gaps, I knew I needed to
9:21
Speaker 2: bring them together.
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Speaker 1: We need all of them, So let's talk about that.
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Speaker 1: How do you bring them together in the work you do?
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Speaker 2: To me, it's using the attachment focused lens is super necessary.
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Speaker 2: I really like Carl Rodgers' work too. To me, the
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Speaker 2: Rogerian approach of everyone matters. Everything makes sense in contact
9:46
Speaker 2: or context, and then you're looking at how does this
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Speaker 2: impact the things that you've done, the things that you've experienced,
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Speaker 2: how do they impact your ability to be able to
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Speaker 2: connect to yourself and others, and when I look at
9:58
Speaker 2: it through that lens, I can use similar tools for
10:02
Speaker 2: each person who is part of the equation. Additionally, I
10:05
Speaker 2: don't feel like there's a huge difference between We can
10:09
Speaker 2: shift pronouns to them instead of him, she, her, and
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Speaker 2: it is so much more inclusive. Just to shift the pronouns,
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Speaker 2: we can shift it to defining things individually for ourselves
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Speaker 2: and based off of our relational contracts instead. So, for example,
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Speaker 2: betrayal is to find off of our relational contracts. It's
10:29
Speaker 2: to fined off of who we are, who we're representing
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Speaker 2: ourselves as, and who we want to be. Instead of
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Speaker 2: saying it is genital contact outside of a marriage with
10:38
Speaker 2: someone other than who has signed the license the marriage license,
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Speaker 2: So it's shifting into using more inclusive language, which actually
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Speaker 2: helps to define it better. If you look at betrayal
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Speaker 2: as a violation of a relational contract, that puts so
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Speaker 2: much more into the equation and narrows it down to
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Speaker 2: a point where it actually applies to people and can help.
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Speaker 1: So when you use that word contract, that can be
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Speaker 1: kind of perceived or actually a literal contract, right because
11:11
Speaker 1: not many many people don't have a literal contract, but
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Speaker 1: there's an agreement, yes, certainly, whether explicit or not. So
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Speaker 1: can you give us an example someone comes into your office?
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Speaker 1: What types of people come into your office? What types
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Speaker 1: of people are you working with? And how do you
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Speaker 1: put into practice everything you just said?
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Speaker 2: I do individual, relational, and cup and group therapy. So
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Speaker 2: I have individuals of all genders who come into my office.
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Speaker 2: And I have individuals who struggle with problematic behavioral patterns,
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Speaker 2: often related to sex or romantic connection relationships. And I
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Speaker 2: have people who have been betrayed. I also have people
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Speaker 2: who've gone through sexual abuse, even if they're not in
11:57
Speaker 2: a relationship that's currently dealing with betrayal. Those are the
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Speaker 2: three general populations I work with. Those with PSB are
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Speaker 2: those struggling with PSB?
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Speaker 1: Okay, So, so someone comes into your office, example, struggling
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Speaker 1: with PSB? How might they present, how might they show up?
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Speaker 1: What does it look like?
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Speaker 2: Usually for males who are struggling with PSB, it is
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Speaker 2: usually because they have been discovered by their significant other.
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Speaker 2: I've had very few males come into my office who say, Hey,
12:31
Speaker 2: I'm really struggling with this problem and I need some
12:33
Speaker 2: help when it hasn't been discovered within their relationship. Females
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Speaker 2: and folks who are non binary or LGBTQ plus will
12:42
Speaker 2: often come into my office because they say, I'm really
12:45
Speaker 2: struggling with this. I don't know how to stop.
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Speaker 1: So to me, what might look like in the first example,
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Speaker 1: for the for the for the man.
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Speaker 2: So, for example, their significant other may have found on
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Speaker 2: text messages from somebody. They may have gotten pictures from
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Speaker 2: somebody that's showing an affair. They may have discovered money
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Speaker 2: that was spent on a credit card. I had somebody
13:10
Speaker 2: who there. They had paid off their credit cards and
13:14
Speaker 2: within a month or two there was another one hundred
13:17
Speaker 2: and fifty thousand dollars on the credit card, and they
13:19
Speaker 2: realized it was being spent on camgirls. And obviously that
13:24
Speaker 2: was not part of their relational contract, which was unspoken
13:28
Speaker 2: or spoken, not written, But the agreement that they would
13:32
Speaker 2: not spend one hundred and fifty thousand dollars in a
13:35
Speaker 2: month or two on camgirls was very much understood within
13:39
Speaker 2: the relationship, even if it wasn't overtly stated.
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Speaker 1: Okay, when when, what do you how do you work
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Speaker 1: with that? How do you relate? What is what are
13:56
Speaker 1: you doing as a therapist in that kind of situation.
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Speaker 2: So for the person who's struggling with problematic sexual behaviors,
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Speaker 2: the first thing I do is tell them they're not
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Speaker 2: a monster, They're not just broken, and there's a reason
14:09
Speaker 2: that they got to where they got to, and there's
14:11
Speaker 2: hope we can process through this, we can figure out
14:14
Speaker 2: a way out of this, we can help them to
14:16
Speaker 2: break their patterns. For somebody who's been betrayed, the first
14:19
Speaker 2: thing I tell them is I believe you. You're not crazy,
14:22
Speaker 2: you're not making it up, and you can't heal. So
14:25
Speaker 2: to me, those are the two different approaches that which
14:29
Speaker 2: have the same underlying message. There isn't something wrong with you.
14:33
Speaker 2: Granted there are things that are broken, but we can
14:37
Speaker 2: heal them. I really like the concept of konsuki. I
14:39
Speaker 2: don't know if you've heard of that. It's a Japanese
14:41
Speaker 2: art form er. You men pottery with gold, and the
14:44
Speaker 2: idea is that the work we do to be able
14:47
Speaker 2: to heal makes us even more beautiful than we were.
14:50
Speaker 2: And to me, that that's the message I want people
14:52
Speaker 2: to get.
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Speaker 1: How did you get to be that person? He seriously?
14:58
Speaker 1: Because you did? You just grow up very compassionate.
15:05
Speaker 2: I had to me a very hard psychological and emotional childhood.
15:09
Speaker 2: My family was pretty abusive. I'm not in contact with
15:13
Speaker 2: most of my biological family anymore, but I have an
15:15
Speaker 2: adopted mom who's been my mom for twenty years now.
15:18
Speaker 2: She's amazing, and I have lunch with her. I actually
15:21
Speaker 2: have lunch with her later today. We have virtual lunch
15:23
Speaker 2: once a week, and so I've built my family. I
15:28
Speaker 2: think it may have been partially because of that. I
15:32
Speaker 2: knew how much it I wanted to belong and be
15:35
Speaker 2: loved and seen and appreciated for who I was, and
15:38
Speaker 2: I want to make sure I give that to other people.
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Speaker 2: I think people matter.
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Speaker 1: That's incredible, lady, it is. I mean, you exude this.
15:49
Speaker 1: I mean you have this amazing smile. You just exude
15:53
Speaker 1: this like warmth and compassion. That's what it is. Thank
15:59
Speaker 1: you really you do?
16:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, I could feel it, and I'm like, it's amazing,
16:05
Speaker 3: it really is, and that it's incredible that there are
16:10
Speaker 3: people out there like yourself who are working with and.
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Speaker 1: Kind of meeting these other people where they're at. I mean,
16:21
Speaker 1: I could imagine there's a lot of shame around problematic
16:24
Speaker 1: sexual behaviors and betrayal no matter what side you're on,
16:30
Speaker 1: maybe to a greater or lesser's degree, but the attachment lens,
16:36
Speaker 1: let's bring that in there. Why and how is that
16:40
Speaker 1: important within these contexts?
16:44
Speaker 2: So attachment at its core to me is can we
16:46
Speaker 2: trust ourselves? And we can we trust others to show
16:49
Speaker 2: up for us? Are we able to connect with other people?
16:53
Speaker 2: Does it feel safe to us? So many people who
16:56
Speaker 2: develop patterns of problematic sexual behaviors don't know how to
16:59
Speaker 2: come to people in a healthy way, usually because of
17:02
Speaker 2: trauma that they've gone through. Usually it's because they have
17:05
Speaker 2: been taught connection isn't safe. They've been taught that they
17:08
Speaker 2: aren't allowed to feel emotions, they've been taught that their
17:11
Speaker 2: needs don't matter, and so they go into equations believing
17:17
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be heard, I'm not going to
17:19
Speaker 2: be seen, I'm not going to be loved, And then
17:21
Speaker 2: they do behaviors that are incongruent with who they are,
17:24
Speaker 2: and they feel a lot of shame around that, and
17:26
Speaker 2: then they try to stop them, and then they can't
17:28
Speaker 2: stop them, and then they feel like there's something broken
17:30
Speaker 2: about them. So they don't trust any of the connection
17:34
Speaker 2: that's offered to them. They don't trust that their significant
17:37
Speaker 2: other or others or even their family members or friends,
17:41
Speaker 2: the ones that if they're toxic, I can understand that
17:44
Speaker 2: being part of the equation, and you'll have to make
17:46
Speaker 2: shifts so that you have a healthier support system. But
17:49
Speaker 2: they don't trust that they actually are loved and that
17:51
Speaker 2: they matter. So to me, understanding that you are able
17:56
Speaker 2: to connect to yourself, that you matter, that you're not
17:59
Speaker 2: just broken, and then learning how to connect to other
18:02
Speaker 2: people and trust what they bring to the equation. And
18:05
Speaker 2: by trust, I don't just mean we use the word
18:09
Speaker 2: trust to define things in a positive light. So if
18:13
Speaker 2: I trust someone, it's I trust you're going to be
18:15
Speaker 2: there for me. I trust you'll keep my confidences. Trust
18:20
Speaker 2: is just predictability of behavior. It's behavior over time. So
18:23
Speaker 2: I can trust that maybe one of my friends will
18:26
Speaker 2: be able to show up for me and listen every
18:28
Speaker 2: time I need to talk, but they're going to have
18:31
Speaker 2: a hard time being able to sit in painful emotions
18:34
Speaker 2: around a certain topic. I can trust that maybe somebody
18:38
Speaker 2: will be able to I had a friend who I
18:44
Speaker 2: told her something that I thought was in confidence. She
18:46
Speaker 2: shared it with our friend group, and I realized we
18:48
Speaker 2: just defined confidence differently. So to me, confidence was between
18:52
Speaker 2: the two of us. To her, confidence was in the
18:54
Speaker 2: friend group. And then I could either adjust what I
18:57
Speaker 2: was telling her to say, Okay, confidence is within the
18:59
Speaker 2: friend group, and I'll shift to your definition, or I
19:01
Speaker 2: could say, hey, if I tell you this, can we
19:03
Speaker 2: please keep it confident? And either one of those is
19:06
Speaker 2: an okay approach, and then that maximizes connection. So attachment
19:10
Speaker 2: is being able to connect to people in a way
19:12
Speaker 2: that's safe. It's being able to trust that our needs
19:15
Speaker 2: and emotions matter, and it's being able to trust that
19:18
Speaker 2: our needs are going to be met by the people
19:20
Speaker 2: connected to us, or set up the boundaries so that
19:23
Speaker 2: we won't be hurt by them and destroyed by them
19:26
Speaker 2: if they aren't. So with my friend that I just
19:28
Speaker 2: talked about, she wasn't trying to hurt me. We just
19:30
Speaker 2: had different definitions, and then I could figure out how
19:34
Speaker 2: I needed to tell her things.
19:37
Speaker 1: In that example, with the man who spent that amount
19:41
Speaker 1: of money on chemgirls, you said, how did you work
19:47
Speaker 1: with him?
19:49
Speaker 2: So with I don't give specific examples that are identifiable,
19:54
Speaker 2: but to me, this is the path I work with
19:56
Speaker 2: with everyone. It's okay, what's going on? For you. Let's
20:01
Speaker 2: number one, identify the behaviors, figure out what boundaries we
20:04
Speaker 2: need to set up around them, and then work on
20:08
Speaker 2: I call it disclosure, and that's the word that's used
20:10
Speaker 2: for it sharing that information in a way that is
20:13
Speaker 2: therapeutically helpful within the relationship. And so in that case,
20:18
Speaker 2: I happened to work with his wife, not with him,
20:23
Speaker 2: and sharing that information was something that was done. We
20:26
Speaker 2: did it in a therapeutic fashion so that she had
20:29
Speaker 2: the answers to this is what has happened. She knew
20:32
Speaker 2: what was going on. He was able to say, now
20:36
Speaker 2: you know all the things, so I'm not hiding something
20:38
Speaker 2: because a lot of times if people don't share what's
20:40
Speaker 2: happened in a therapeutic way, not in a super shaming way.
20:44
Speaker 2: Disclosure can be done in a really shaming way where
20:48
Speaker 2: it's basically, you suck as a human being. You did
20:50
Speaker 2: all these horrible things. Now like go report it, sort
20:53
Speaker 2: of like you're reporting to a principle instead of let
20:56
Speaker 2: me share with you the things I did. I'm really sorry.
20:58
Speaker 2: I made so many mistakes, so let me figure out
21:01
Speaker 2: how I got there so I can shift out of it.
21:03
Speaker 2: So we were able to look at what's underneath it?
21:05
Speaker 2: And then we went back and.
21:06
Speaker 1: Well, I guess that's my question. What for him? What
21:09
Speaker 1: was underneath it? I mean what actually? So you're the
21:14
Speaker 1: wife was a client?
21:15
Speaker 2: Yes, she was my client. We have other therapists that work,
21:19
Speaker 2: so I usually work in conjunction with other clinicians. I
21:22
Speaker 2: won't work as so if we have a DIAD, I
21:26
Speaker 2: will not work with both people and do their couples work.
21:28
Speaker 2: I will work with one person, or I will do
21:31
Speaker 2: their couple's work, and I bring in we have another
21:34
Speaker 2: clinician that works with the other individual and potentially somebody
21:38
Speaker 2: who works with the couple. Shit, if it's a DIAD.
21:42
Speaker 1: Now, did he identify this as a problematic behavior? Yes himself.
21:47
Speaker 2: Okay, most people should come into my office too.
21:50
Speaker 1: Okay, but what but he did? Wasn't your client?
21:54
Speaker 2: I did co therapy. I do co therapy sessions, which
21:57
Speaker 2: is all four of us are in the room. So
21:58
Speaker 2: I'm there with my client, he's there with his therapist.
22:02
Speaker 2: All of us talk together, and then we do individual
22:05
Speaker 2: work separately.
22:06
Speaker 1: Okay, So just for an example, what was the underlying
22:10
Speaker 1: or what could the underlying issue have been for that person?
22:13
Speaker 2: It's almost always childhood trauma that has developed. So a
22:16
Speaker 2: lot of times they're sexual abuse that needs to be processed.
22:20
Speaker 2: A lot of times there is psychological or emotional abuse.
22:25
Speaker 2: Very few people who develop problematic patterns of behavior were
22:29
Speaker 2: taught that their emotions and needs matter. Now, I am
22:31
Speaker 2: an emotionally focused therapist, that's marriage and family therapy, s Johnson.
22:36
Speaker 2: So I look at emotions and needs, and I look
22:39
Speaker 2: at attachment. And so his ability to believe that he
22:43
Speaker 2: mattered as a human being would have been deeply impacted
22:46
Speaker 2: by the things that he went through in childhood.
22:49
Speaker 1: And this behavior is somehow are there successfully or not.
22:55
Speaker 1: He's trying to fulfill some need.
22:58
Speaker 2: That way, it's people who believe that their needs can
23:02
Speaker 2: never be met by other people or won't be And
23:05
Speaker 2: often it's I tell people, it's like if you have
23:08
Speaker 2: a bucket that has no bottom on it, in order
23:10
Speaker 2: to fill it with water, you have to have a
23:12
Speaker 2: fire hose on. And so if you don't believe, if
23:16
Speaker 2: it never hits that you matter, if somebody says that
23:19
Speaker 2: they love you and you can't believe it, then you're
23:22
Speaker 2: going to have to pour things into it to try
23:24
Speaker 2: to believe that you're good enough. It's constant validation. So
23:28
Speaker 2: the individuals I work with who struggle with problematic porn
23:31
Speaker 2: use and I'm not anti porn, I am anti human
23:34
Speaker 2: trafficking and I'm anti deception, But people who struggle with
23:39
Speaker 2: problematic porn use very often it's if you look at
23:45
Speaker 2: the work that's necessary for emotional connection sexual connection, Porn
23:50
Speaker 2: very seldom includes things like one minute that hurts, Hey
23:56
Speaker 2: did you do the dishes? Who's taking care of the
23:59
Speaker 2: kids tonight? Who's taking care of whatever. It doesn't do
24:02
Speaker 2: the work ahead of time to connect it is, and
24:06
Speaker 2: you also you're predicting what they're going to do, the
24:09
Speaker 2: faces they're going to make, the sounds you're going to hear.
24:12
Speaker 2: You're never rejected because it's not actual acceptance, but you
24:16
Speaker 2: can show faces are always going to be the same,
24:19
Speaker 2: They're always going to respond in positive ways. I will
24:22
Speaker 2: never be rejected. But then at the core you also
24:25
Speaker 2: realize you'll never be accepted because they're not actually responding
24:28
Speaker 2: to you. It's recorded, or they're being paid for what
24:30
Speaker 2: they're doing, So it's not acceptance as it's core, which
24:33
Speaker 2: is why it doesn't actually fill your bucket. If the
24:37
Speaker 2: bucket has no bottom because you don't believe that you're
24:39
Speaker 2: worthy of love and belonging.
24:41
Speaker 1: Wow, d's it is? Jeez, let me just remind of
24:47
Speaker 1: when I'm speaking with doctor Lanye Nolton, Lanie, I just
24:52
Speaker 1: want to touch on, uh, the book Healing Portraial and
24:56
Speaker 1: Fidelity and Problematic Sexual Behaviors. Who's it for? Why'd you
25:03
Speaker 1: write it? So?
25:05
Speaker 2: It is for anyone who has problematic sexual behavioral patterns
25:09
Speaker 2: and anyone who has been betrayed, regardless of gender, regardless
25:13
Speaker 2: of sexual orientation, regardless of relational orientation. Sorry, my headphones
25:19
Speaker 2: were falling off, regardless of relational status. So I wanted
25:24
Speaker 2: to put together an umbrella that connected the tools in
25:27
Speaker 2: the field from an attachment focused lens that were inherently
25:33
Speaker 2: person centered, that didn't make you believe, no matter which
25:37
Speaker 2: category you happened to fall into or identify with, that
25:40
Speaker 2: you were wrong, that there was something bad about you
25:43
Speaker 2: that gave people hope. So it's a workbook and it
25:47
Speaker 2: walks people through the recovery process. Early recoveries building emotional
25:51
Speaker 2: safety through truth with yourself and within your relationship. Middle
25:55
Speaker 2: recoveries empathy and connection. It's traditional relational counseling with a betrayal,
26:00
Speaker 2: sensitive lens and late recoveries, healthy sexuality. And then there's
26:03
Speaker 2: a chapter at the end on parenting. Not all of
26:06
Speaker 2: my clients have kids, but the ones who do very
26:09
Speaker 2: often i'll get the question, how do I make sure
26:12
Speaker 2: this pattern doesn't continue? So it's breaking into her generational patterns,
26:16
Speaker 2: and how do you talk to your kids about sex?
26:18
Speaker 2: How do you talk to your kids about betrayal? How
26:21
Speaker 2: do you tell them what's happened or not tell them
26:23
Speaker 2: what's happened. So that's what that last chapter is on.
26:26
Speaker 1: So for listeners, how would someone know if they're if
26:34
Speaker 1: they have problematic sptual behaviors?
26:37
Speaker 2: It's usually something that you will be doing. So it's
26:41
Speaker 2: a pattern of behavior that has continued to happen, not
26:44
Speaker 2: just something that happens in an isolated event, although this
26:48
Speaker 2: can work for people with isolated infidelities. So if it is, hey,
26:53
Speaker 2: I fell into this, this is not something I want
26:56
Speaker 2: to be doing. I ended up having an affair or
26:58
Speaker 2: I ended up acting in this way that's in congruent
27:02
Speaker 2: with who I am. It can help you no matter
27:04
Speaker 2: where you are in the process. It doesn't have to
27:07
Speaker 2: be somebody who qualifies for compulsive sexual behavior disorder, which
27:11
Speaker 2: is that's the phrase I use. It's in the ICD
27:13
Speaker 2: eleven and the World Health Organization they identify that it's
27:18
Speaker 2: not in the DSM, So we don't have one in
27:20
Speaker 2: the DSM at the moment. But you don't have to
27:24
Speaker 2: be that extreme to be able to utilize this. And
27:27
Speaker 2: I use the same tools for people who have been betrayed,
27:29
Speaker 2: not because I'm calling them co addicts, not because i'm
27:32
Speaker 2: calling them codependents, not because I'm saying this is their fault.
27:36
Speaker 2: Because I want them to be able to see if
27:39
Speaker 2: somebody that they are connected to is doing the work.
27:42
Speaker 2: And one of the things that I found was I
27:44
Speaker 2: would have people come into my office and each individual
27:48
Speaker 2: would be doing their work, but the language is so
27:50
Speaker 2: different and the approach is so different that they'd end
27:53
Speaker 2: up farther apart and they wouldn't be able to They
27:57
Speaker 2: just have to trust, and trust isn't there because it's
28:01
Speaker 2: been broken. So to rebuild trust when you don't understand
28:04
Speaker 2: what somebody else is doing or how they're doing it,
28:06
Speaker 2: and it doesn't make sense to you, to me, didn't
28:09
Speaker 2: make any sense. So I wanted to connect all of
28:11
Speaker 2: those tools.
28:13
Speaker 1: So before we close out statistically, who experiences or has
28:24
Speaker 1: more problematic behaviors sexual behaviors? Is it men? Women? Can
28:29
Speaker 1: we even look at that?
28:33
Speaker 2: Historically we have thought the answer was straight men or
28:38
Speaker 2: gay men. Actually, so I guess let's say men. However,
28:41
Speaker 2: I think it's across every population. I have seen it
28:45
Speaker 2: with every population I've worked with. It may be problematic
28:49
Speaker 2: patterns that look a little bit different for straight females.
28:53
Speaker 2: Oftentimes it has to do with romantic connection, but it's
28:56
Speaker 2: not healthy romantic connection. It's connection that violates who they
29:00
Speaker 2: want to be, that violates their relational contracts, connection that's unhealthy.
29:05
Speaker 2: So I think it's across all populations. I don't think
29:09
Speaker 2: it's just straight men. And with LGBTQ plus folks, there's
29:14
Speaker 2: a lot of Again, we're looking at incongruence. We're not
29:18
Speaker 2: looking at I'm not judging relational patterns. I'm not judging
29:22
Speaker 2: relational orientations sexual orientations. I am saying, if it's incongruent
29:29
Speaker 2: with who you are, if it's causing problems for you,
29:31
Speaker 2: if it's harming you are others, And I say harm
29:35
Speaker 2: not hurt, because BDSM is a very valid sexual need
29:39
Speaker 2: and desire for a lot of folks, so I don't
29:42
Speaker 2: want them left out either.
29:44
Speaker 1: Understood, appreciate that. All right? How do people learn more
29:47
Speaker 1: about you and what's going on for you?
29:50
Speaker 2: So if you're interested in the book or in my materials,
29:52
Speaker 2: all my handouts are free online. That's at Connected Recovery
29:55
Speaker 2: Training dot com. And my original books say Coupled Recovery,
30:00
Speaker 2: but I switched to Connected Recovery because it's not just
30:02
Speaker 2: for couples, it's for anybody. And then Knowlton Counseling k
30:07
Speaker 2: N o W l t N Counseling dot com. If
30:09
Speaker 2: you want to work with me as a therapist.
30:12
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll have each of those linked up here at
30:15
Speaker 1: the show notes page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com.
30:18
Speaker 1: Lny awesome, love you. Love to have you back a
30:21
Speaker 1: later day, Circe, appreciate you being here.
30:24
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It was really nice to meet you.
30:26
Speaker 2: I loved our conversation.
30:27
Speaker 1: All right, we'll be in touch.
30:29
Speaker 2: Sounds good. Go