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When Force Stops Working · Spiritual Sense: Practical wisdom to quiet an overthinking mind and recharge your soul

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Many blessings and welcome to this episode about how to create what you want in life without force, without causing stress to yourself or others. And we're going to get into some ancient stories. I have an ancient story here which Shireen has lovingly put together from an ancient epic, secret text for most people in the west who've never heard of it. And as we go through life, we of course all want things. We want to get the things that we like, things that we want. And a lot of the time it comes to this energy of forcing it to happen, pushing through, making it happen. And all this, like the means justifies the end. I'll do anything to get what I want. But that causes terrible, terrible pain. Not just in the moment, but also long term consequences. If the actual act of creation and getting what we want is not aligned with the highest good, then it's destined to disaster. So we're going to get into this and how can we create from a more graceful, loving, inspired place? So welcome to the episode and how are you doing, Shireen?
• 1:13
  Speaker B: I'm doing wonderful. Thank you for being here.
• 1:15
  Speaker A: Oh, it's a pleasure. Pleasure.
• 1:17
  Speaker B: I appreciate your presence. Sending you blessings, sending everyone blessings.
• 1:23
  Speaker A: Yay. So, Shireen, just get a little bit of context. Why are we reading these stories and how did this all come about?
• 1:33
  Speaker B: I'm writing on the Ramayana and it's so consuming. I'm so consumed in a wonderful way because the mind is just so still because of it. And I've noticed that the stories in the Ramayana, every story actually has a modern parallel. If you take out the scaffolding, right. Of just like the physical things and you just go into the actual story, it has a modern parallel.
• 2:13
  Speaker A: Yeah. These ancient stories have a lot of magic secrets in them. So I'm going to read you a, you know, shortened version of Shireen's original story here and you can get her stories on her sub stack, which we'll put a link to. What is the substack? In case anyone's listening to this, they want to type it in.
• 2:30
  Speaker B: Shireen. Chara.substack.com so if you want the full
• 2:36
  Speaker A: version of this story, this is a shortened version, then you can get it there. And we're going to talk about how this applies to you getting what you want without stress. And this is about a king and a magical gift giving, gift fulfilling cow. He didn't find enlightenment, he forced it. And then he learned why it wasn't enough. I have wanted many things. Kingdoms, victories, the fear of my enemies. And I have had all of them. Then I saw her at the edge of a stream near the sage's hermitage. A wish fulfilling cow. She moved through that place the way abundance moves through somewhere that has made room for it. And I understood for the first time what it meant to want something so completely that everything else became background. I went to the sage and offered him a kingdom's worth of wealth for her. For this magical cow. He said no. He told me gently that he couldn't be separated. That she couldn't be separated from the place that allowed her to exist. Taking her would be like taking the lamp. The light from a lamp. By removing the lamp from its flame. I didn't believe him. I've spent my life not believing people who said something couldn't be done. So I sent my armies. When it was over, my sons were all dead. All 100 of them. My armies gone. And the sage was standing exactly where he'd been before. Staff in hand. Unmoved. I understood something I had never understood before. There is a kind of force. My kind of force cannot touch. And I'd spent my life believing that force was the answer to everything. If you just applied enough of it. And I was looking at a man who hadn't even tried to defeat me. He had simply remained what he was. Something shifted. Not surrender. More like pushing against a door so long that when it finally opens, you fall through. One thought remained. I am going to become what he is. I sat down under a tree and began. The first years were easy. I still had my warriors discipline. I burned away everything that wasn't what I was trying to become. Pride went first, then anger. Then I failed. A woman was sent to break me. And I broke. I began again. A man insulted me and I cursed him with the power I'd built. I had the power. The realization wasn't there yet. So I began again. Years became decades. I was no longer a king doing a practice. I was a man for whom the practice had become the only life I knew. One day the gods came and told me I had earned the highest station. But I needed one thing the gods couldn't give me. I needed the sage to say it. I went to him. Two men who'd become enemies longer than most stories last. I felt none of the old rage. I felt gratitude. Because without him, I'd still be a king. His refusal had been the first thing in my life force that my force couldn't overcome. That refusal was the beginning of everything. He looked at me a long time. Then he said it. I recognize what you have become. Of all the things the story could have ended with, it ended with this gratitude towards the person who refused you toward the limit. Your force couldn't break that. The one that turned out to be the door. So Shireen, what does this story mean? What on earth is this?
• 7:15
  Speaker B: I have a question for you. When you were reading it, what was striking about the story?
• 7:22
  Speaker A: Well, he wanted something. He was willing to put his armies towards it. And then he got his ass kicked. And then he, it didn't work out at all. And, and, and then he realized something else needed to happen and he was willing to, to put his, to change his ways and really put in the effort to change himself. But even that wasn't necessarily working out very well for him, despite all the hard work. You know, it's like after a certain
• 7:54
  Speaker B: point, it worked out at the end.
• 7:55
  Speaker A: It did in the end. It did in the end. It did work out. But it was like he put his, his intentions towards something valuable. But ultimately he had to sort of loosen his grip on these things and give up and not be so addicted to what he wanted. Even, even a good thing had to sort of to some degree be released in order to achieve it.
• 8:23
  Speaker B: Right? Right. Absolutely, absolutely. So a couple of episodes ago we spoke about this wish fulfilling cow, we spoke about on the other side where the sage was protecting the cow and the cow, what happened, he wanted this cow and this is the king. And so what happens to the king is he becomes Vishwamitra, a very big sage in the Ramayana. And so that's the king. And one thing that I always feel is we are not grateful or truly from our heart grateful for things that didn't work out in our life. If you really look back in your life, there are certain things that didn't work out and it was really for the better. It didn't work out and we are not grateful enough. And that's one thing that sage taught me is to be grateful for whoever refused, whatever they did, whatever didn't work out, for whatever reason, to be really grateful because I am who I am right now because of everything that happened before.
• 9:44
  Speaker A: That's very deep. It's very true as well. You know, a lot of the times we think I want, I want, I want, I want, and that's it. But there's a reason things don't happen in our life. There's a reason everything happen, does happens or doesn't happen. And if we're not aware of what's really going on and we think it should be the way we like it all the time. We're not actually existing on the plane of existence, of reality. We're in our head thinking, there's like this stream of life that I wanted to happen and there's my actual life over here and somehow there's something wrong with my actual life. But this is the real thing and it must be a reason for it working out the way it does. I mean, most of the time it's actually the only the challenges that we learn from if we're really honest about it. I don't know many people, I mean, I'm not sure I know anyone actually who hasn't learned from their challenges or obstacles. You know, it doesn't mean we have to fail miserably every time. But like, if everything's going easily and we get what we want all the time, that there's normally not that great deal of growth going on until something comes into our life that doesn't work out the way we want. And then we have to reassess what's going on.
• 11:04
  Speaker B: Absolutely. So that's the first thing I felt, right? And I was reading that when I was writing that, I was like, oh my God, he was so grateful. Or what happened? Like, let's say in a relationship, right? Someone refused to be in a relationship with you. Like, you're bitter or you're like, oh, whatever. But are you really grateful for them not being in a relationship with you? Right? Like, that's really something because it's for the best, whatever happened. And the second one I feel that I learned from this story was a relationship to our limits. Because in the first, in the previous episode, we spoke about how this king comes, right? So there's this wish fulfilling cow and there's this sage, and the cow is in the ashram and he asks for the cow and the sage says, no, it needs to be in the ashram. That's the only place it can exist. And he comes with his armies. And when he comes with his armies, the cow sends armies. The armies are dead. The sage stands with a staff, all his weapons are nullified, and he's standing there alone in ruins. The king. And so this is the king we are talking about and the relationship with our limits, right? So he always knew how to get things by force. Always. Right? That was his M.O. the whole time of his existence. He got things by force. He was a king. But there were limits to that force. And what is my relationship with my limits? Because sometimes, many times what we think are limits, right? Either we have to suffer through them Or I have to feel bad for my inadequacies, or I have to push them out of the carpet and say they don't exist. Or we have all of these range of emotions with our limits. I feel we don't have a healthy relationship with our limits because the limits we have is the door we walk through to get to the other side. And so that is the kind of relationship we have to have with our limits. You know, because he first used force, it didn't work. Then he sat in meditation, and so he walked through the door of his limits.
• 13:44
  Speaker A: Well, he certainly put in a lot of work. I mean, this is a shortened version of this for a much longer story in the original Ramiana, but it sounds like he spent a rather long time doing deep meditation, being tempted, failing, starting again, failing, starting again, and just gradually, gradually getting it together. And he didn't give up. You got to give it to him, you know, that's a lot of dedication. Seems like in the Ramya, these people are willing to sit down and do hardcore meditation for years and years and years, aren't they?
• 14:16
  Speaker B: You know, Angel Michael, isn't that true for you too? It's true for me. I mean, how are we here after decades of doing this?
• 14:27
  Speaker A: That's true.
• 14:27
  Speaker B: Suddenly all of a sudden we got enlightene.
• 14:31
  Speaker A: That's true. No, they did, they put in the work. It, it's what's. There's a whole bunch of things that stand out in this, but one is the, the, the amount of practice that they're putting in. I mean, it is, it is impressive, it has to be said. I mean, it's a story, but it's, it inspires me to put in a bit more hours per day. Because these, because from these stories, they're sitting there under a tree for like 10 hours a day, like for 10 years. Right. I mean, of course, I'm not sure I could actually manage that every day. I have stuff to do, but you've got to give it to them. So the dedication is definitely there. And even if they fail or get tempted or something goes horribly wrong, they don't give up. That's another thing. Because a lot of people, I mean, what. Just compare that to the average person today who first of all doesn't do any meditation at all. Or if they do, it's five minutes here and there. Oh, and then if they fail, if
• 15:29
  Speaker B: so, they'll just put an app, you know, a button in an app, and I'm done for the day.
• 15:33
  Speaker A: And then, and then after that, if it doesn't work out for like the first time. They say it didn't work for me. So it's like an interesting like parallel to the modern world, which is just do it properly, hardcore for years and years and years versus doing it very poorly, half ass and then giving up at the first inkling of a challenge. So that tells us a lot, doesn't it?
• 15:58
  Speaker B: Actually, it does tell us a lot. You know, of all of the people in the Ramayana, right, these sages were the ones I really connected with. Like when I was writing that, I felt I was writing me, right? I did and I gave, you know, I failed this and that. Some of the elements, like the woman and all of that is from the original story. I took the original story. But you know, the other things about Pride Burning, all of that was me. What I've noticed is that I was very grateful actually when I was reading this story. In the original version, when I was reading this story, I was very grateful because I felt, you know, okay, my meditation is also like that. I sit down and then I don't do well. I mean, it's been three decades or more than three decades I've been doing this. And so it goes in and out. And the practice is good sometimes not so good sometimes. But to not give up, just not give up.
• 17:10
  Speaker A: Exactly. That's. That's the bigger lesson there, isn't it? Just keep up the good work with love and compassion and, and to realize that there's more important things in life than just focusing on what we want and fighting for it. Because that's how he started off. I'll get whatever I want because that is how a lot of people operate. I'll get anything I want and I'll put. I'll put my entire force behind it. And even if I screw people over and wreck everyone's lives, it doesn't matter. That kind of zero sum type of energy. I'll do anything to get what I like.
• 17:45
  Speaker B: Another thing about this King the Vishwamitra story is it's not a classic inspiration story, right? It's not classic. He worked, worked hard and he succeeded kind of thing. It's first he did the absolutely wrong thing, absolutely wrong thing and failed catastrophically. And then he did what he's supposed to do and then he did some more and he did some more and then, you know, then there was like he saw results. And so that's what I feel, that most of us now are in between somewhere, right? We try something and it could be totally wrong the way we are trying it, but we keep trying it. We keep trying it and sometimes we do it and then we succeed and we know. So we are somewhere in between what the king was going through. And the thing I liked was he realized his force was no match for the sage. The stillness of the sage was what inspired him. Because that's in the original telling that he says, shame on the Kshatriyas who couldn't match Brahmana. That's what it says. And so. The stillness of the sage is what inspired him. Right. And that's what made him do what he did, the inspiration of stillness. And that's what I like, the inspiration of stillness. We don't need to push, push, push, push, push. Right, hold it, hold it. Be still, be quiet, do what we need to do. And when the door needs to open, the door will open.
• 19:45
  Speaker A: That's beautiful. There's no need to force. Everything has its time. And I feel in, in the world we live in today, this is more important than ever. Because if we are in a hypnotic trance, pushing through things, trying to force them to happen, it doesn't work out. Because a lot, a lot of us nowadays, because of the technology that we work with, it's all mental work, right? And if we can't think properly because we're forcing and we're obsessed, we actually end up producing poor work and doing stupid things without. And it takes longer so on. On a spiritual level, this applies, obviously, but on a practical level, in a day to day life, if we slow down, calm down and then take action from that place, it leads to better results much quicker. My personal feeling about this is if I try and slow down by like 10 to 15%. My personal feeling is that almost all things in life can be significantly improved by turning the dial down 10 to 15, 20% on the speed. If everything just gets turned down a little bit, it creates this certain space and grace where everything is, is kind of bathed in peace and ease and then it can happen more smoothly. But this, it's got to be done. Got to be done. We're going to do it now. Do it now. Do it now. Push, push, push. That is causing terrible pain and it's not getting the result either. And it has a backlash against. Seems like these Ramayana stories, they're redeeming stories. There's this terrible person who does these awful things and then, then they get battered down in one way or the other. Then they decide to be, to do 10 years of meditation under a tree.
• 21:47
  Speaker B: Oh, I love those stories. Right, so in the Ramayana, when I'm now when I'm writing it, the ones where I really feel, oh, it's me is Vasishta. When I was writing Vasishta, I couldn't tell the difference between me and Vasishta. Vasishta is the sage that stood with the staff. That's the sage. And this is Vishwamitra we are talking about. So I couldn't tell the difference, right? And I really could go inside the soul and see what he's thinking, what he's feeling. You know, it was like just these feelings were coming about him and I was thinking, oh, the quality of the mind is so quiet, is so quiet. And so that is what for me I'm taking is not only all. They're very redeeming but also very. There are so many modern parallels, right? Don't you agree? So many modern parallels. But the quality of their mind was different. And that quality of the mind cannot be had with everything we are doing in modern life. It needs a different pace, it needs different inputs. It needs different things.
• 23:17
  Speaker A: Ten years under a tree.
• 23:20
  Speaker B: Ten years under a tree.
• 23:21
  Speaker A: Yeah, but we have to do the best we can in our situation. Did the, the sage, did he. Was he a bad person first and then had redeeming qualities or did he start out good? Because it seems like a lot of
• 23:35
  Speaker B: these stories, he's the only one. He's the only one who started out good.
• 23:39
  Speaker A: Okay. All the rest of them were bandits
• 23:42
  Speaker B: or all the rest of them are bandits and this and Right. So he's the only one. He was born a Brahma Rishi. Right? He was born a Brahma Rishi, the Vasishta. Okay. When you're writing from different points of view, that's what's going on. When you're writing from different points of view, you don't logically decide this is who I'm going to identify with. Because you're getting into the character so much, at some point something clicks about the character.
• 24:13
  Speaker A: Right?
• 24:15
  Speaker B: Right. Like okay, I could have picked Sita or I could have picked Rama or you know, I could have picked any of those people. But when I'm writing about them, I know I'm writing about Sita or Ramas. But when I'm writing about Vashishta, I feel, oh, this is me.
• 24:33
  Speaker A: Yeah. So why don't you tell. Tell everyone listening. What, what are you doing? Exactly? Because you're. I can tell you obviously know what you're talking about, but someone else. These are all strange sounding names that, that have no context. So what is your project and how do they find more about it?
• 24:52
  Speaker B: Okay, so Ramayana is a big epic. It's a story about Rama the king, Sita, his wife, and how they go into exile. They're sent into exile for 14 years in the forest.
• 25:08
  Speaker A: Why are they sent into exile?
• 25:12
  Speaker B: Oh, that's a long story.
• 25:13
  Speaker A: Right? Well, they were sent. They should have been taking the kingdom, but they were sent into exile instead.
• 25:18
  Speaker B: Okay, you want to know why they're sent into exile? Then go to my substack.
• 25:25
  Speaker A: So this is. This is kind of the clay sounds a little bit like the Lion King, isn't it, in a way that they're sent into exile rather than getting the throne? It's. These are themes that seem to repeat themselves in these type of stories, isn't it?
• 25:39
  Speaker B: Right, so they're sent into exile. And so they are in exile. And he has his brother. They're in exile. And at one point in the exile, the story shifts. At this point is there's a demon who can shape shift, right? And so the demon shape shifts. The demon is not very good looking, but shape shifts into this beautiful young girl. And he comes to Rama, the king. So Rama is very virtuous, really. Dharma, he follows Dharma, and so she comes to Rama. So the demon's name is Supernaka. So she comes to Rama and in this beautiful form. And she doesn't have any subtlety. The demon is not a subtle demon, and goes to Rama directly and openly says, hey, Rama, not Rama, hey, you. I want you. I can give you this and you can get this from me and blah, blah, blah, right? And so Rama, very gentle, listens to everything she has to say with attentiveness. And he says, I'm married. My Dharma doesn't permit me to offer you whatever you're asking. And he points to Lakshmana, Lakshmana, the brother and the brother. So Rama is very still and quiet and all of that. And Lakshmana is fire, right? Fire. So Lakshmana, without mincing words, tells her to get lost. Get lost, right? And so they're living in a small hut. They're in a forest. Remember, this is about 13 years into living in the forest. So they're living in a forest. They're living in a small hut. And so Sita is at the door of the heart watching all this. And she notices Sita. The demon notices Sita. And she realizes, okay, one of the things about the demon is there's no filter between want and have I want. So I'm going to have right there's no opposite do they want, do they, you know that all that is not going on, that equation is not going on inside. I want, so I'm going to have. And so the Supernaka, the demon sees Sita and she realizes that Sita is the one who is in between her wanting Rama. And if she leaves, right, if she's, if she's removed from the equation, then she can go after Rama. And so she charges at Sita. And before she knows what happens, before anything, anything, before they know what happens, Lakshmana comes and cuts off her nose and cuts off her ears. And when that happens, when he cuts off her nose and cuts off her ears, then she springs back into her original shape of being a demon. Remember she was a, you know, beautiful young girl and now she's a demon. And then she screams ghosts. She goes screaming because she decides that the humiliation of what happened to her needs to fall on everyone around. And so she goes screaming to her brother, who is Ravana. And that's when the story hinges because what happens is. So Ravana abducts Sita, but the way Ravana hears about the story is through Supernaka the demon. So the demon is Ravana's sister and she tells him about Sita. Anyway, so if you want to know the whole other details, how they got exiled, what happens in the forest, I mean they are very wonderful stories in between. And it's first person. So you. So let's say when I'm writing about Suparnaka, which was hard, I'm writing in first person, Supranaka, what I'm thinking when I see Rama, what I'm thinking when I see Sita, what I'm thinking of my desire, it's all coming in first person.
• 30:33
  Speaker A: Fascinating. Yeah. So where do they find their cell?
• 30:39
  Speaker B: Shireinchada.substack.com the link will be in the description.
• 30:45
  Speaker A: Yeah, so if you're interested in stories, epic stories and spiritual significance and the
• 30:51
  Speaker B: amazing modern parallels, right. In Supernaka, when I was writing it, they are amazing modern parallels. Amazing modern parallels.
• 31:03
  Speaker A: Yeah. I mean the world we live in now is full of shapeshifters, isn't it really? Like people, people shapeshift and the technology itself is a! I mean, AI is a shape shifter. You can produce whatever you. I mean it's, it's a shape shifting entity.
• 31:18
  Speaker B: Right? But also, right, like people say, oh, even let's say someone they voted for. Oh, I didn't realize though. You know, they were like this because they changed Right. Even on a large scale. I mean, I'm talking about a larger scale. That's. What's going on is they have one face when they want something, and then when they don't get it, there's a different face going on.
• 31:46
  Speaker A: Comes different. Yeah, that's.
• 31:48
  Speaker B: Oh, but Supernaka is a very interesting character, actually. There are lots of modern parallels. Lots of modern parallels which we won't get into right now.
• 31:58
  Speaker A: But it's a. It's a complicated, wondrous story. But. So how do we get what we want in life without forcing? That's. That's the.
• 32:10
  Speaker B: Yeah, let's go back to our.
• 32:11
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 32:12
  Speaker B: The king who became a sage, Vishwa Withra.
• 32:18
  Speaker A: Yeah. I think the. The key thing for me personally thinking about at least for many years, is that it can I feel I've already attained what I want in myself before I take action. Because it's either I feel lack and I'm running after it. Like the demon you just mentioned, Shereen. Like, I want it and I'm gonna get it. Right. I feel lack, I'm going to run after it and force it to happen. That's one way of. That's how pretty much everything operates most of the time. The other is to say, let me just take a moment to remember I'm okay, I'm safe, I'm all right. You know, I feel good in my heart and have good thoughts, relax. And then how can I do actions that are actually virtuous and beneficial and supportive and, you know, going to make my life better and other people's lives better? That. That's. That's a very different way of living. And it does require stopping and then taking action rather than just push, push, push, push, push. So if, if. If there's that capacity just to slow down. And then do it from a good place, you know, solves a lot of the problem.
• 33:37
  Speaker B: Right. You were talking about push, push, push. And I'm remembering something. For the sage, the king who became the sage, Vishwamitra, it worked only when he stopped pushing. The door opened when he stopped pushing. Right. Because initial years of his tapasya, initially when he's sitting in intense meditation, his warrior discipline came in, and those were the easiest. But later on, he had to come come at it with a very different mindset, which was not a pushing mindset.
• 34:23
  Speaker A: Yeah. We have to allow, you know, to come into a spacious place. It's the same with meditation. I find I can try and, like, push, push, push. But oftentimes nowadays, if I just go for a Walk. And I'm not trying too hard. I can experience deeper states of higher consciousness because it's not. It's not all push, push, push all day long. You know, there's. There's a certain grace and there's a. There's actually a deeper state of consciousness that exists anyway that you can't really reach it from forcing it to happen, you know, because it's already there, you know, so slow down, Slow down and just allow everything to expand and then move forward. This is a. Something that really is needs to be said again and again in this mad world we live in. Because. Because it's like if you wake up in the morning and immediately are stressed out about everything and immediately check all the stuff on the phone all day long, a whole day, and go to sleep. Push, push, push, push, push. I mean, what kind of life is that really? And is it even working? Is it getting the result? And then even if we get what we want, if the. If getting there only happened by endless stress, by the time we get what we want, we'll be so stressed out anyway, we can won't enjoy anything. So it's. It's like hell in the moment and hell afterwards. So how can that be successful? So there it is.
• 35:58
  Speaker B: One last thing.
• 36:00
  Speaker A: One last blessing.
• 36:02
  Speaker B: No. Anything else? One last. Before we do the blessing, one last thing?
• 36:07
  Speaker A: Yeah. Turn everything down by 20%. Easier said than done.
• 36:10
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 36:11
  Speaker A: But if you can slow down, then the forceful energy will get less just by slowing it down. It's hard to be forceful if you're also slowing down and relaxing. All right, so what's our blessing today?
• 36:33
  Speaker B: Pick a number. Or should I pick one?
• 36:35
  Speaker A: Just open it up at random. Let's see what we have.
• 36:41
  Speaker B: Decisiveness.
• 36:42
  Speaker A: Oh, there it is.
• 36:47
  Speaker B: This is God's blessing for you. Decisiveness. You have mastered the art of viewing situations with clarity and understanding. This emotional detachment has sparked an awareness, leading you down the right path. No matter the challenges, your stillness and composure fuel your wisdom.
• 37:19
  Speaker A: Beautiful. Yay. So thank you, Shereen. Thank you for all your stories and fascinating research and magical creations. Thank you, everyone, for listening. And we'll probably not be having unusual epic stories next podcast, but you never know. Let's see what happens. Shereen has. How many of you got? Shereen?
• 37:45
  Speaker B: I'm in the middle, but I'm anticipating. Okay. When I first started, right, I thought I was writing eight essays, and now I'm in the middle, but I'm anticipating close to 50.
• 37:59
  Speaker A: 50.
• 38:01
  Speaker B: So, yeah, but each is a story. Each is a story.
• 38:04
  Speaker A: Stories. Yeah. These things. It's it's a bit of a departure from my usual podcast, but I think it's like, if you understand, like, these mythical stories, what they mean, you can apply it to your life in different ways. And I think we are living in a big story like life. This is a story like that. That's why the most famous books in the world are all stories, because we are in a story, or that's what life is. So we can't avoid stories because we're in one. There's a beginning, middle, and end, and challenges and heroes journeys and obstacles and shape shifting monsters and all kinds of things. That's what life is made of. And so we might as well understand what we're dealing with and enjoy it. So have a great day, beautiful week, and we'll talk to you in the next episode.