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The Glass That Proved She Wasn't Lost: How Trust Was Stolen · Narcisist Psychology

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: A glass of orange juice sat on the back step
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: of a house in August, full, untouched, no condensation on
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: the outside, no insects circling the rim. In direct summer sun.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: That should have been impossible. The man who found it
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: was a meter reader named Kenneth Graham. He had no
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: reason to look twice at a glass of juice, but
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: something about it stopped him. The glass was filled nearly
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: to the brim, as if some one had set it
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: down one second ago and walked back inside. Except no
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: one had walked back inside. The woman who lived there
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: had been missing for nine days. That glass would become
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: the first thread investigators pulled, and what unraveled from it
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: was not a story about a woman who vanished. It
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: was a story about a woman whose reality had been quietly,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: methodically taken apart, piece by piece by someone she trusted completed.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Her name was Rebecca Coleman. She was twenty eight years old,
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: and the person dismantling her world at a certification, a
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: calm voice and a plan that had worked before. To
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: understand what happened to Rebecca Coleman, you need to understand
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: what her life had cost her to build. Rebecca completed
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: her second stay at Whitmore Recovery Center in April twenty
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: twenty two. Two years later, in April twenty twenty four,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Dennis Schultz stopped beside her car on the roadside. That
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: number matters because anyone who has watched someone fight their
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: way through recovery knows that the second time carries a
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: different weight. The first time is often shock and revelation.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: The second time is harder. It means the person knows
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: exactly what they are fighting, and they are choosing to
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: fight it anyway. Rebecca came out of Whitmore with a
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: structured life, a small apartment at four fourteen Callaway Street
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: in Garvey, an outpatient therapist, doctor Philip Vance, whom she
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: saw on a regular schedule, a medication routine, a non
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: opioid antidepressant and a sleep aid, both carefully calibrated to
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: her recovery needs, and every Tuesday, without exception, she attended
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: a meeting at the church on Mercer Avenue, where her
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: friend Marissa Twyer drove across town to sit beside her.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Marissa had been doing that drive every Tuesday for three years.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: She had begun making the drive before Rebecca's second stay
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: at Whitmore and continued through Rebecca's recovery. That detail matters
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: not because it is touching, though it is. It matters
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: because it tells you something precise about Rebecca's network. The
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: people around her showed up on schedule consistently, with enough
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: regularity that anyone paying close attention could map exactly when
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: she would be where and who would be watching her.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: Aunt Linda Poole sixty one, lived in Garvey and served
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: as Rebecca's prime marry family anchor. Linda was the person
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Rebecca called when something felt wrong. Linda was the person
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: who noticed when something was off before Rebecca said a word.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: She had been that person for years. Rebecca had plans.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: She was rebuilding, slowly, deliberately, the way people rebuild when
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: they know the foundation has to hold. This time, she
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: was not naive about her situation. She was careful. She
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: kept her appointments, she maintained her routines. She had, by
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: every account from people who knew her well, earned back
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: something that is very hard to earn back, a stable
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: sense of herself. That stability was the target. In late April,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Rebecca's car broke down on the side of the road.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: A man stopped to help. His name was Dennis Schultz.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: He was forty three years old, and he held a
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: certification from the National Association of Sober Companions, a credential
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: that positioned someone as a professional support figure for people
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: in recovery. Within approximately forty five minutes of meeting her
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: on the road side, he had her phone number. The
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: following Tuesday, Rebecca described him to Marissa. She called him
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: unexpectedly kind. There is something specific about that phrase, not
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: just kind, but unexpectedly kind, that signals something important about
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: how Denis Schultz presented himself. He did not come in
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: loud or overwhelming. He came in calibrating. Later, forensic psychologist
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: doctor Angela Norris would describe his affect as calibrated warmth
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: effect that presents as spontaneous but functions strategically. At the time,
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Rebecca had no reason to read it that way. Nobody did.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: What nobody knew yet was that Denis Schultz had done
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: this before. Six years earlier, and four hundred miles to
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: the west, a thirty one year old woman named Tanya
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: or had vanished. Her family was told she had relapsed
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: and left voluntarily. Authorities classified it as a voluntary disappearance.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: That classification was false, but that would not become clear
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: for years, not until a glass of orange juice sat
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: untouched in August sun and a meter reader named Kenneth
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Graham could not quite look away. The weeks after that
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: April roadside meeting moved quickly. Dennis Schultz did not rush.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: He attended the Tuesday evening meetings at the church on
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Mercer Avenue, the same meetings Rebecca had kept for over
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: a year. He sat where she could see him. He listened,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: He never pushed. By the time he moved to Calloway
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Street in mid June, he was already inside the architecture
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: of her daily life. Not visibly, not loudly. He was
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: there the way a weight is there before you notice
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: you are carrying it. That is when the medication changed.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Dennis had positioned himself as someone who could help manage
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: Rebecca's routine, her prescriptions, her schedule, her appointments. On the surface,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: it looked like support. What it actually was control of
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: every pill that entered her body. Her antidepressant was not
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: an opioid. Her sleep aid was not a controlled substance.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Neither showed up on the standard panel used by her
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: recovery program at Whidmore. They were legitimate prescriptions. The third
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: compound was not three weeks before Rebecca disappeared. A receipt
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: was generated at a compounding pharmacy twelve minutes from the
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Callaway Street apartment. The name on the receipt was Denis Schultz.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: The prescription came from a physician named doctor Marcus Webb,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: whose license was already under review. The compound was custom
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: a benzo diazepine derivative blended with a sedating antihistamine. It
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: appeared nowhere in Rebecca's treatment records. It appeared nowhere in
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: the standard monitoring program for people in recovery from opioid use.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: It was designed to be invisible. Dennis had, according to
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: doctor Angela Norris's later forensic evaluation, mapped the surveillance gaps
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: in Rebecca's life and inserted himself precisely there. The compound
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: did not need to be detected, it only needed to
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: be administered. But something happened twice in July, two Fridays,
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: roughly three weeks apart. Linda Poole described Rebecca on those
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: days as like herself again, like the real her, almost
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: agitated with energy. She was sharp, she was present, she
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: wanted to talk, and then within a few days that
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: version of her was gone again. Those two fridays correspond
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: to gaps in the compound's refill cycle. Denis had miscalculated
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: the dosing twice. The clarity Rebecca showed was not a
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: good day. It was the sedation wearing off and her
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: real self surfacing through the fog before he could restore it.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: She did not know that was happening. That is the
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: part that does not settle easily. She was emerging briefly
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: from something she had no name for. Rebecca had been
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: reported missing on July twenty fifth. Nine days later, on
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: August third, a man named Kenneth Graham was reading utility
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: meters on Calloway Street. He came around the back of
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: four hundred fourteen and stopped. There was a glass of
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: orange juice sitting on the rear step, full almost to
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: the brim. The sun had been hitting that wall directly
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: since morning. It was August. No condensation on the outside
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: of the glass, no insects at the rim, no oxidation
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: on the surface. In that heat. None of those things
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: were possible unless the glass had been placed there very
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: recently or unless something had prevented anyone from retrieving it.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: Kenneth Graham left a note and flagged it. Detective Iris
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: Paulson and her partner Tom Hensley arrived within the at
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: four hundred fourteen. The rear door's old padlock had failed
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: to engage. It was not cut or forced separately. At
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: the storage facility in Perrin, the padlock on Unit twelve
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: had likewise failed to engage. Those mechanical faults meant entrances
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: had been accessible without a key, and the glass should
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: not have still been there. Denis had placed it outside
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: to dispose of the last traces of the compound. The
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: plan was to come back. The padlock was supposed to
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: be locked. He had no way of knowing it had failed.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: The glass went to the lab, and what came back
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: confirmed what the receipt had implied. Residue consistent with a
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: benzodiazepine derivative and a sedating antihistamine compounded together. Not a
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: standard prescription, not a controlled substance under the state monitoring program,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: something built to fit precisely through the gaps inside Dennis's car.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: Technicians found two partial fingerprints under the driver's side visor.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: One belonged to Rebecca Coleman. That surface is touched from
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: the passenger seat. The second partial was run through the database.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: It matched an open case six years old, four hundred
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: miles to the west, a woman named Tanya Or thirty
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: one years old when she vanished, whose family had been
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: told she relapsed and left on her own, Tanya Or,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: whose disappearance had been classified as voluntary. The pharmacy footage
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: showed Dennis's gray Chrysler on five separate dates. The passenger
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: was never visible above the shoulder. The image was genuinely ambiguous.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: It could not confirm identity, but it placed the car,
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: it placed the dates, and it placed pressure on a
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: man who now had a pharmacy receipt, a glass of residue,
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: a fingerprint from a cold case, and a forensic psychologist
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: describing his emotional presentation as strategic rather than genuine. That
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: combination did not leave him much room. Everything in the
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: evidence pointed toward one conclusion, and investigators were building toward
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: its steadily. The receipt, the residue, the cold case finger print.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: Dennis Schultz, methodical and credentialed, who had inserted himself into
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: a vulnerable woman's life and then erased her from it.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: The shape of the case felt clear that was the assumption,
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: and it was wrong in one specific important way. Picture
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Kevin Baker sitting across from Linda Poole in early August.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: He was not a detective. He was a clinical social
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: worker who specialized in coercive control, which meant he understood
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: something that standard missing persons investigation did not always account for.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: He was not looking for where Rebecca had gone. He
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: was mapping how she had been prepared to disappear without
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: anyone noticing she was being taken. Baker pulled Marissa Dwyer's
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: account from that last Tuesday evening. Marissa had sat with
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: Rebecca and felt a mild unease she could not name.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: She had dismissed it because she did not want to
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: be the kind of friend who dampened everything. She told
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Baker the unease was there, she had chosen to set
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: it down. Baker documented it and moved to the pharmacy records.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: The compound was not on Rebecca's treatment panel. But here
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: is the thing. It was not supposed to be. It
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: was designed around the specific gaps in what the program monitored.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: This was not opportunistic someone had researched exactly what would
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: and would not show up. That reframed the question. The
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: working assumption had been that Denis was exploiting a relationship
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: he had stumbled into the roadside meeting in April, an
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: opportunist who recognized vulnerability and moved quickly. But the compound
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: told a different story. You do not commission a custom
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: formulation designed around a specific recovery programme's monitoring gaps unless
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: you have done this before. You do not know which
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: gaps to target unless you have already tested the edges
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: of the system. The finger print from Tanya Or's cold
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: case was already in the record. When Baker brought his
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: coercive control mapping to Detective Paulson alongside that print, the
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: picture shifted completely. The April roadside meeting was not where
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: this began. The credential the National Association of Sober Companion's
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: certification was not incidental. It was the mechanism. It was
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: how Dennis Schultz located women in exactly the right kind
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: of vulnerability, Women who had already fought hard to stabilize themselves,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: women whose support systems were calibrated to interpret declining function
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: as relapse rather than harm. He had not stumbled into
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: Rebecca's life. He had positioned himself to find her, and
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: somewhere forty miles east in a storage unit in a
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: town called Perrin that was positioning was still active. The
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: confession came without a lawyer present making final arguments. Dennis
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Schultz negotiated it himself. He would confirm Rebecca Coleman was
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: alive and the state would not pursue the maximum sentence.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: That was the trade. He gave up the location in
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: exchange for the ceiling. Detective Paulson and Kevin Baker were
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: already moving before the paperwork was signed. Perrin is forty
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: miles east of Garvey, a storage facility on the outer
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: edge of town, Unit twelve. The padlock on the door
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: had not been forced. It had simply failed an old
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: mechanism that had not fully engaged. That mechanical failure was
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: the only reason Kenneth Graham's discovery at four hundred fourteen
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: Calloway Street had meant anything at all. The juice glass
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: that Dennis had placed outside to disappear had stayed because
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: the door he expected to open never did. Inside Unit twelve,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Rebecca Coleman was alive. She was sedated and under the
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: custody of Sheila Lowe, a woman Denis had paid to
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: hold that position. Rebecca did not know where she was.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: According to records reviewed after the fact, she may not
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: have fully known she was anywhere at all. She was
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: hospitalized for six days. Her recovery afterward was described in
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: court documents as complicated and nonlinear. That phrase does not
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: fully carry what it means. For weeks, possibly months, the
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: architecture of her own perception had been chemically managed by
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: some one else. The compound had been designed to fit
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: invisibly inside her life. Her clarity in July. Those two
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Friday afternoons when Linda said she seemed like herself again
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: were not breakthroughs. They were accidents. Dennis had miscalculated the
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: dosing cycle twice. Rebecca had surfaced without knowing she had
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: been submerged. The legal consequences moved through the CIS to
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: mid stages. Dennis Schultz was found guilty of unlawful restraint,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: criminal intoxication, and related charges. Sheila Lowe entered a separate
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: guilty plea doctor Marcus Webb, the prescribing physician who had
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: authorized the custom compound. Three weeks before Rebecca disappeared, surrendered
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: his medical license. The fingerprint mattered in ways that extended
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: beyond this case. The second partial print recovered from beneath
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: the driver's visor in Denis's car. The surface reachable from
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: the passenger seat matched a cold case file opened six
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: years earlier. Tanya Or had been thirty one when she vanished.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Her disappearance had been classified as voluntary after she contacted
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: her family to say she had relapsed. That classification was false.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Tanya Or was found alive. She was located in a
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: residential facility in another state, carrying memory gaps spanning fourteen months.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: Her case was reopened. Authorities noted that additional charges remained
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: under review, pending forensic analysis. The outcome of that review
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: had not been made public as of the time this
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: episode was produced. Six years a woman whose disappearance had
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: been sealed as a choice she made a family that
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: had been handed a story about relapse and left to
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: carry it. Dennis Schultz's certification as a sober companion was
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: not a credential he had earned and then misused. It
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: was the search mechanism. It produced, access to women who
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: had fought their way to stability, and whose support systems
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: were structurally trained to interpret deterioration as regression rather than harm.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: That is what doctor Angela Norris meant when she described
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: his affect as calibrated warmth, not that he was skilled
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: at seeming kind, that the kindness was the architecture. There
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: is something specific about this case that does not leave easily,
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: not the crime itself, the design of it. Rebecca Coleman
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: was twenty eight years old and two years out of
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Whitmore Recovery Center when Dennis Schultz stopped beside her car
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: on an April afternoon. She had built something meetings on
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Tuesday mornings at the church on Mercer Avenue, her aunt Linda,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: sixty one years old, and driving out to Garvey to
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: check in her friend Marissa, making that same Tuesday drive
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: for three years without being asked twice. Rebecca had people,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: she had structured, She had, by every measure, done the
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: hard work. Dennis did not find a gap in her defenses.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: He found the defenses themselves and learned to speak their language.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: The thing. Marissa said afterward that she had felt a
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: mild unease and set it down because she did not
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: want to be the kind of friend who dampened everything.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: That line has wait not because she failed, she did
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: not fail, but because the manipulation was engineered specifically so
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: that the people closest to Rebecca would interpret their own
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: inns sins as over reaction. The doubt was not incidental,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: It was load bearing. Kevin Baker, a clinical social worker
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: who specialized in coercive control, not a detective, was the
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: one who named what had been visible all along. He
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: mapped it. He brought the map to Detective Paulson. The
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: system found Rebecca because someone understood the system well enough
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: to describe exactly how it had been defeated. What this
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: case leaves behind is not a question about whether justice
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: was served. Dennis Schultz is convicted, Sheila Lowe is convicted,
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Doctor Marcus Webb no longer holds a license. Those outcomes exist.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: What it leaves behind is the question of the credential,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: a certification that in this case functioned as a targeting system.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: The National Association of Sober Companions did not create Dennis Schultz,
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: but the access that credential provided was real, and Rebecca
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: Coleman was not the first person to move through his
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: life without knowing what she had entered. Tanya Or is alive.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: Rebecca Coleman is alive. Their recoveries are their own and
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: they belonged to no one else's telling. The juice glass
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: stayed on the porch because an old padlock did not
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: catch one mechanical failure in August heat under direct sun.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: That is the margin. That is what the difference looked
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: like from the outside. This show is made by Obo Media.