Latest / Unresolved Dependencies / #11 Fancy Shirts, Schnitzel and Credits Consumption 💸

Transcript

#11 Fancy Shirts, Schnitzel and Credits Consumption 💸 · Unresolved Dependencies

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I need to Joseph, are you underwater?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have I think it's quite good sound.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Do you agree?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Do you agree?
• 0:19
  unknown: No.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds like vacation.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: It does.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: It does.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, your your your shirt screaming vacation, I have to say.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: That is a top-tier fancy shirt today.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Fancy shirt.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Fancy shirt, yeah.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'll go as far as saying fancy shirt.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: And welcome to the fancy shirt show.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Fancy shirt.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Just kidding.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, only only half of the podcast actually wearing fancy shirts, but we're still quite fancy.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but it was like that's that's enough for a new episode of Unresolved Dependencies.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: How have you been, Sebastian?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Good, good, relaxed and stressed at the same time because I just I just had two weeks of vacation actually.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um and now I'm back to work since a few days and directly jumped in the two days' workshop.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Many, many problems, many problems that are not that they're like out of my competency.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: But you expect but you expected to resolve them clearly.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: And now I I'm stuck with them.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, everything back to normal, I would say.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how it is, uh, as always, but for vacations, it's always stressful before and afterwards, and then you think, oh damn, when is the next time I go on vacation?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: But are you one of those people who are like literally okay, the first day back, you're already booking your holidays for the next one?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, literally, I did this today.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, today is not my first day in the office, but um it's like the fourth or so.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I actually just uh booked vacation today because I um had the chance to book all of the or most of the rest of the travel of the year because we have a so super internal talk.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: We have a new booking tool for for flights and stuff like that, and um I now booked a bunch of flights, and then there is a week in October that um is not occupied and I don't need to travel somewhere, and there are no crucial meetings yet fixed, so I took the chance and fry five weeks of vacation into it, with the hope then to take the rest um around Christmas because I I have plenty of vacation days left.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So actually, actually, I did book the next vacation or just like kind of um submitted it for approval and it was already approved, which is nice.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Nice, therefore, yeah.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you so you're gonna be traveling you're gonna be traveling just as much as Joe's travels then, clearly.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we did that.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: I maybe even a bit more, I'm not sure.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's a very busy schedule for my spring and all.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we need to switch things around for the next episodes.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: But where do you travel to and where did you go last time?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we've actually had a correct answer this time.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: We actually have correct answer.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: We had it.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they had the very amazing Sharon Smith who got back to me through the in through the Instagram.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: We're on Instagram, in case you didn't know.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: So far, it's on there to see pictures of what Sebastian eats.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Kids, we are so cool.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: We are on Instagram.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're we're 6'7 in all the time, so I had to do it.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we're just so down with it.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, congratulations to Sharon who gets credit in Paris.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: How was that last time?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Paris.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, in France, yeah, it wasn't by choice.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, much as if you know anybody visiting France, sorry, apologies for any French people listening, you don't ever go to France or Paris on purpose.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's always by accident, you know.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so how did you end up in Paris by accident?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: I had a connection through there.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it again confirmed my suspicion that Charles de Gaulle airport is the worst airport in the world.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: After Amsterdam and Frankfurt.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, Amsterdam's a great airport.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Charles de Gaulle is the worst airport in the world.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not gonna I'm telling you, I'm not gonna go into a massive grant about it, but yeah.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's a topic for I'm gonna control myself, but yeah, if you doesn't hold like if you ever want to hear my rant on Charles de Gaulle airport, then all you need to do is just ask that to me.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, I was in Paris Adelaide over there um before travelling to Nuremberg.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't do Nuremberg because I've already done that before as a previous answer.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that was the correct answer from Sharon.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: So regular listener of the podcast, uh, thanks for listening.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for the correct answer.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to get involved at any point, you can you can you know contact us through tw through Instagram or email us.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, it's uh unresolveddependencies.com.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: So what is Sharon now gifted to?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because we said she will get something when someone gets it right.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: We just never expected by so many countries and so many cities in the world show is traveling to that anyone would get it right.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: So we really need to make something up now for her.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you'd have thought that we'd we'd thought this through, we'd have everything prepared and ready, but but we haven't.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: We're sorry, we're just not we're just not prepared.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's 11 episodes, we're still pretty badly prepared, but we do need to sort ourselves out.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: I will see if we get some nice stickers done or something like that.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: We I think there's some good things.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Stickers or could stick stickers, and then we can kind of work our way up from there, and then Sharon gets a nice uh sense.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I smell something like to throw.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're at a conference and you're like in the in the audience and we are presenting like workshop or any session or so, you can just fry something with the logo on it, or so what to shut us up, you mean yeah, to say right.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, that works.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's it's better than just you know shouting and saying shut up or spending out.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, I do have yeah, so say something to fry, I think that's fun.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and also I can give it to my dogs so they can they can so that's the real reason.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's the reason actually the real reason is the real reason.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, the real reason is that I sit in the audience while you're presenting and I throw things at you, so that is the real reason.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um Frisbee's stickers, we'll order them, we'll get them, we'll see how we're gonna have to look at like balls, like a ball or something, which you can just like okay.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: We'll work this out between us, but yeah, but yeah, well done to Sharon.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: But we've got a new clue.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: So clearly, you know, we're getting interest now.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: People are actually engaging with us on the channel, so who knows?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Might get some more clues through.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, where is Joe traveling next?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: I am traveling to a famous city uh that was once part of the Hanseatic League.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and in its country, it has the it the most extensive number of UNESCO World Heritage sites.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: Where am I going to next?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let us know.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, almost alldependencies.com, or you can hit us up on the socials, Instagram, LinkedIn.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we've not done TikTok yet, we're not that cool, but maybe we'll have to uh figure out TikTok at some point as well.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, after a social media game, at some point as an adult, you just draw a line and say, I'm too old for this shit.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think TikTok we might be.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm too old for that.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: But you know what?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm you know, I'm never too yeah, exactly.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: But you never I'm not too old for, you know, admiring what you've been eating.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so yeah, this time um it's a very very close to Joe's heart, I would say.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um it is, yeah.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: And you may have seen this on the socials, you may have seen this on the socials, yeah.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, uh, because we went out for dinner date, and because you were actually in Numberg, as you just mentioned, and I myself um I was curious enough to come down to Nemberk um and pick you up for a nice schnitzel.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: So he's he's a he's a great guy to go on a date with.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: I got I got a free ride, uh, he paid for the meal, good conversation.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: I I think I got at least three drinks out of him as well.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, like the best dad you had in years, it's been the best day I've had for quite a while.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, so you know, yeah, all the socials are in the comments.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, yeah, exactly.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what but what what did we eat?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this is the most important thing, and I do this was amazing.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: What did we eat?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe maybe you can this time talk about the schnitzel because I just had a cordon bleu, which was nice and tasty, full of cheese, full of ham.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one actually, I have to admit, cordon bleu is one of my sweet spots and favorite foods in existence.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, not only my dad, um yeah, makes it a little bit different because he um is using some kind of chicken, uh, just for me for the gains, and um do it basically by himself of all the stuffing and stuff around it, so it's more or less whatever you can do, self-made.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but also, for example, when I go over France to to watch some Bundesliga, some football or Champions League, we usually go to a um very nice German restaurant before that, um, have some drinks and as well coron bleu.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the same as well here where I now live in the in the city when once there is like a birthday party, or for example, first date with my girlfriend was actually at our place where we ate uh eat coron bleu and very big schnitzels, actually, bigger than you have at the place.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're here, you come to my place and then we go for real big schnitzel.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a French dish for cord en bleu?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean there's a French name, it sounds French, doesn't it?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Which which already makes me dislike it more, so yeah, yeah.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: We're really we're really slapping the French.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna we're gonna have lots of complaints in this episode, but I'll tell you.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, exactly.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but this place will have the most amazing, not just a schnitzel, a gros grosser schnitzel, the biggest schnitzel, bigger than I think your dog, uh bigger than my head.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think at one point I managed to actually cut it in such a way so it actually resembled Ireland, uh, which was quite interesting.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, that was fun.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: I was I was I was so impressed that I managed to do that.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, yo, yeah, tab of the man and look at you.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: See, see, now I've offended the Irish as well, but my excuse is that I'm half Irish, so I'm only taking the Ireland Schnitzel.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's uh maybe that's a good uh good name for the episode, the Ireland Schnitzel.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it's quite possibly well, I think I did take a photo, but we'll get that out on the social.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: But certainly it's a it's a what's the name of the place?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's in uh Alangen, is it no?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's still not Erlangen, it's in Firt Fürt.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so it's called Kruner Brauhaus.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's basically famous for beer and the brewery, but they also do schnitzel and and all of the stuff.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And the basically the outer rim of the schnitzel is is not um traditional, it's made based on pretzels, so it's um a bit different to your um Austrian dish and favorite schnitzel you may have eaten so far.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that's make it a little bit special, yeah.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: But the headers beer was just like astounding.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, definitely.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's famous for the for the brewery, actually, for the beer.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, so it's directly on top.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so we're still we're trying to resolve our dependencies not only for this podcast, but also you know, with the occasional dinner day too.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: In real life, in real life, yeah.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, we are still talking outside of this, would you believe?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Surprisingly, to our own.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, a topic that's got me really kind of interested at the moment, to move on to more serious topics.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Is it project operations related?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, that's that might happen.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: That might happen one day, maybe.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um co-pilot credits.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean the chances chance is bigger than it happens to you too instead of to our audience.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, yeah.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: You never know.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's co-pilot credits.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Copilot credits, of course.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's what I wanted to say next.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally not application lifecycle management.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, but yeah, co-pilot credits.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want to know?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm a certified license expert.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you are not, no, I'm not.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's a confusing topic.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: So this is why I wanted to talk about it because I'm I can't be the only one trying to make sense out of all of this.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: So let's let's talk first of all in terms of okay, um, how you can consume them, first of all.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, and just stop me at any point if I'm getting things wrong or if I've misunderstood things.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, not yet.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, not yet, not yet, okay.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you have not started.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: I've not started, but when as soon as you can just just interrupt me because I just want to make sure I've got it clear, and then but hopefully by us getting it clear on here, then others will also be a little bit more enlightened with it.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be a win-win-win situation.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's three ways you can get co-pilot credits.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: You can buy uh the co-pilot credit capacity packs through M365, through CSP, whatever your provider sort of is, and that's in kind of in increments of I think it starts at 2500 and it kind of goes its way up from there, I think.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you can buy it on an annual and a monthly commit.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's one way you can kind of do it.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: You've got the ability to consume it through pay as you go Azure subscription, where you have to go into PowerPlatform Admin Center, configure your bidding plan, uh, and then from there you're then paying a slightly higher rate.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's like one cent per credit.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, but um it's it depends on like um where you set the billing plan up because, for example, for the work IQ API and Copolit Cowork, this happens on the Microsoft Admin Center, actually.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: But so far, so correct.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't know if the if the tiers or bundles or packages are starting at 2500.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea, no idea how the scales, it just scales in in tiers.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And if you need one credit more, you need to buy the bigger package.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right, so we should probably step back a bit because because you know, in terms of okay, why would you need copilot credits?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's mainly just for any time you're using anything that's kind of I guess vaguely agentic.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: So anything like, for example, a custom copilot studio agent, anything involving those services that you just mentioned, that's where you require these sort of copilot credits to use these kind of experiences.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: It kind of depends.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: So if we we talk the classic um experience, if you do have an M55 co-pilot license and you just um use the agent in terms of like a um chat interface, or you, for example, have it linked up to internal resources like HR documents, very, very common example, and you just chat with that.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is included in the M55 Copilot license, so this consumption.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: But for example, if you have set up an autonomous agent that that runs through um uh service account somewhere in the background that kind of scans your emails or does any wild actions while you're away, this would then probably consume credits, yeah.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because M365 Copilot does include some usage entitlement, some copilot credit usage built in.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is written in the um in the license guide that um it includes a fair amount of credits, which um it's very hard to translate what is like how many is fair amount, and I actually super lucky that I'm on this podcast apparently.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I asked Microsoft what is a fair amount um of Copalot credits because I had no idea, and I had a customer asking that.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, what is a fair amount?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: And um, they actually claimed um when I was talking to them, this was like two months ago or sorry, um, that this fair amount is that high that you are as a human, you should not be able to reach that limit.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: So um kind of like the API thresholds and you know the same.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it's more like limited to um to call out any kind of attacks or to call out any any kind of automatic program such as ping everything milliseconds or so.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: That would be then blocked at some point.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: But if you are a human person, even though you use the agent on a daily basis and very much frequently, you should not ever reach those limits.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the nice thing is if you will reach these limits, then um Microsoft would be then as well able to lift that for you if there is a use case where it is actually what happened.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I've not heard that this has happened so far.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because if you go on the and we'll link to this in the in the show notes, you've got the copilot credit estimator tool thing where you can punch in a bunch of data and stuff like that.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the scenarios that you can do there is okay, custom agent, okay, does the users have an M36 uh copilot M365 license?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yes, how many users?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: The more you put into that, the more that kind of gets deducted down.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: So for certain scenarios, if you've got an internally facing co-pilot studio agent, as long as the users have got an M365 copilot license, then a conversation around copilot credit shouldn't be needed in theory, is my understanding.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe you can correct me there.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, as as long as kind of is used in terms of um a real conversation with the licensed user, does this cover it?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because again, you're charged at the moment, and again, this may have changed, correct me if I'm wrong.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: You're your charge traditionally based on okay, one copilot credit.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Every time, for example, in a conversation node in the copilot studio agent where the agent goes, Hello, how are you?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, message node, that's one charge.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Anytime you're using a Gen AI capability, it's charging two credits at a more expensive.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and then even like tool use is more than that.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: So if you use any tools or something that charges more, I think uh oh, I don't I could have looked up the numbers, I think it's like up to 15 or something, and especially like when they like have triggers and stuff like that, it gets uh very much more expensive.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so yeah, that's kind of so there, so I think the important message is that one credit or one message as it was called before, is not translating into one action on the on the agent.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's actually the point why, for example, estimation of like how much is the runtime cost of this agent is so difficult because you may have an agent that runs with different child agents with different tools with handling three, four, five scenarios, and each of the scenarios they may be the same uh processes over and over again, um, but you don't know how much or how often which of these uh processes or orders um will be will be triggered because they then all consume a different amount of credits based on whatever happens there.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because the thing that I'm advising customers at the moment is okay, for just just initially just go down the route of the second option that we spoke about.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: There is a third option which I'll come back and mention.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Go down the route of having the pay as you go with the Azure subscription, let that sort of bed in maybe for two, three months after you go live with the solution.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Then at that point, you've got a much more accurate picture in terms of what your usage is going to be, and then you can go and then order some commit, you know, commit to some binds and capacity packs based on what the actual workloads are like.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that for me feels at the moment like the the best option to kind of recommend there.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think as well, so and I think the I mean definitely during testing and so you can see like, okay, what is the rough the cost of like one runtime of these agent functionality if you can data mine it and then you can maybe scale it up and then figure figure out how much it will consume on a monthly basis.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, so having some kind of uh limited um budget on the on the Azure subscription, this is a good way to start off, and then later on you can, anyways, um scale.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the assumption is that you will in three months or in six months or in eight or twelve months, you are using more credits than you're using today.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyways, it would make sense to potentially buy these little bit cheaper um packages then.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that leads you on to the third way you can get your co-partner credits.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's through this thing called, I believe it's called P3, where I think it's provision and purchase through Azure.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: But this is like, okay, you know you're going to be using like so many credits.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you're basically buying all of it upfront for the year, um, but you're getting a massive discount, an absolutely huge discount on that compared to if you were to go down different routes.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um in some cases, I think, um, and I think the most expensive pack that you can get that will set you back a nice cool quarter of a million dollars, but you do get a 40% discount on the prices there.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe it's a good deal.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's free off taxes, right?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: So so That is how you can acquire it.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh M365 Copilot does, I think there's certain cases where maybe you could argue, okay, if a customer is not already or is on the fence about M365 Copilot, they want to do more with a genetic stuff, but they're not too sure whether M365 Copilot adds value there.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: I can see they potentially have it.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually saying to them, okay, go and get the M365 Copilot license because it is going to, I guess, subsidize some of your aging costs around all of that.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: What I didn't realize as well, and I told you about this the other day, was that apparently some of the Dynamics 365 SKUs also include copilot credits.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Basically, any of the premium SKUs that there are today, so Dynamics 365 sales premium, uh customer service premium thing.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh supply chain, uh supply chain, and more of which I one more.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, one more.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can get it.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: But not project operations, interestingly.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Which you could which based on a price point is at fairly similarly positioned as the other options there.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, basically, with those, I think you get per user around about, I think it's it's a thousand credits per month, it says in the license.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a few credits per month per user.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, which I didn't realise there.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's actually pretty good because what we're seeing is that you know a lot of the the first party apps now have these agentic-based sort of experiences.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: They are in all for all intents and purposes, technically speaking, copilot studio agents behind the scenes.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: So if you don't have uh provision in place to be able to sort of um, you know, um for it to consume co-pilot credits, then those agents aren't going to work.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, if you go on the tool that I mentioned, the co-pilot uh credit estimator tool, then you can actually mock out those scenarios for those first party agents and see what you need as part of that.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so it's it's quite a complex topic, and it's taking us nearly 13 minutes to talk through what I think are the most essential details.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I've missed out some um important stuff, but well, it gets more complicated actually.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh enlightenment, please.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it gets more complicated, especially if you're then um using uh cool cowork, or you're using as well the work IQ APIs, which are not in preview.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, first of all, maybe what is each of them?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: So work IQ are work IQ APIs.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: You can, I think both names are valid at the moment.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, is basically the layer uh on top of Microsoft Graph.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: So where all of your work-related information is like this is like the golden data, basically, the the pot of the data which is really then making a difference in your answers for um for M55 Copilot or any agent, like where your business data looks like calendar data, emails, the nasty messages from Joe and Teams, all of that is there in graph.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: But my messages are always nice and polite, just say.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that was okay.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you think so, you I will not leak any internal chats, but if someone pays me, no, no, I don't want I I don't want HR involved, please.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: I do not want HR involved.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, sorry.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: So let me explain.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so um, but because Microsoft Graph is like not ideal to be consumed with a large language model or with any kind of service, I would assume.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um Microsoft has built this work IQ layer and with that the work IQ APIs.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: So when your custom agent now wants to access like this kind of business data from this optimized uh layer for LLMs and agents, this will cost you money.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: This will cost um uh money in terms of per call and per action um for any kind of custom agent.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's all included in the M35 Copilot um license.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: So the chat which you use on your daily basis, for example, this is this is all covered, that's fine.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: But if you build now a custom agent, um this will be charged.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: And as I mentioned earlier, this um billing or this um subscription needs to be set up in Microsoft Admin Center and not in PowerPlatform.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: So again, we have two different admin centers where like close to the same functionality lives, which is a bit I want to say not transparent.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, to get we just did this internally to estimate like what do we pay on a monthly basis for AI?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's less than we thought, to be honest.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's like not in the six figures.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Wasn't like uh what was it Uber level where you're blowing the budget in quarter via?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's no, it's not like that, it's like less than I thought.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: But getting this data was like I I ran from store to store basically to get free items, and I I had to kind of pick each number from different places, and that was quite annoying.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, the work IQ IPI and the work IQ functionalities, if you're using custom agents, will be used by uh will be charged by consumption um with your or with the connected Azure subscription, similar, excuse me, as you can set it up on the power platform, but just in the admin center, and there is no way to just buy packages at the moment there, so it's um only pay code fully consumption based.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And the same happens then as well for co-pilot cowork, while the M365 uh co-pilot um license allows you to use cowork, um, basically enables cowork for you, but to actually use it, um, it is again consumption-based, everything that happens in there.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, this is actually right now the case where we're trying out where is the use case on co-pilot uh chat versus where is the use case on Copolit Cowork?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because in some I think early demos or early examples, um, meanwhile, Copolit chat is has grown a lot, has integrated agents like PowerPoint, so you can just um add uh type in add PowerPoint, and it again can generate you a very decent um PowerPoint based on your corporate identity and with all the data.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: But you can do the same the same stuff in cowork as well, which then is potentially a little bit better, um, but potentially as well costs you money.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and this is currently like the question where we need to be very careful for like what is the use guys and what is the best tool to use to get this use guys.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's it's the one advice I give to anyone at the moment, just you know, you're not you're no longer just okay, estimating okay, 50 users for this license, whatever it is, all this sort of stuff.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna have to really go into deep into this sort of stuff because every single if you're showing any single agentic kind of experience that a customer or you wanted to put that in place and people are excited about that, then you need to have a serious look at how co-product credits are being consumed and built.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and that could across your organization, yes, and that could be quite a critical factor there because this could end up costing you a far more than what you usually anticipated just because you're introducing uh agentic AI into the equation.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's kind of an interesting thing.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um trying to master myself as I'm going we weaving my way through you know different sort of requirements and things, yeah.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, it's it's not even stopping there.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: So we have a small GitHub Copilot, which also all brings a different like the next shop to the or the next store where um that wants your credits.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um this is interest as well because we're also before we go to GitHub Copilot, just one more ad.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um just um if you're using co-pilot cowork and you want to understand like how much that um action that prompts you want to consume, you can type in slash cost.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um that there is an integrated skill in out-of-the-box covert that then just shows you the credits you just have consumed.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that is very helpful just to understand like this PowerPoint now was five euros.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is it worth it?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: I maybe if if you do PowerPoints the whole day, and instead of sitting there eight hours and clicking PowerPoint, you can get that work done within 10 minutes and it costs you 100 bucks, then it's potentially worth it.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I that is as well a new factor, a new key to to have in mind.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what is what is the output and what is the um benefit out of it.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, that's pretty good.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know you could do that though.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty good.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for sharing.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: You're learning something here, but as well, you can um assign budget limits um on the Microsoft Upman Center for Coburg and Rokai Q APIs.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this can be done overall, but also per user, for example.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have uh just someone who just is not very good in in prompting or describing what they want, and like kind of guessing um their way through um the chat, then you can as well limit that to a certain amount.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that's just to add that not everyone is now freaking out that they need to build billions of billions of dollars um just because they use coverectors.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: You you have your handles as an admin for sure.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: But go into GitHub Copilot, something again which I wasn't aware of, which I wasn't aware of, is that that can be built through Azure.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: You can link it up to an Azure subscription or and build your usage through there.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that I found to be quite sort of interesting.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: It feels to me, certainly based on some conversations I'm having this fiscal with um from Microsoft standpoint, is that GitHub Copilot is is gonna be quite important.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's my feeling.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean Azure as well, right?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, you say, but you there is a pattern, right?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have three different stores, but there is always a pay as you go option through Azure.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that's definitely something to keep in mind.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you then count in Foundry, for example, that's also built for Azure.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: So in a perfect example, if you just start like with a new fresh tenant tomorrow, you would just want to go and have all of your consumption go through Azure.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, potentially just have different um different subscriptions per tool that you can just make sure that you have an overview, what consumes what, but that is potentially the ideal setup in the future to just go with your consumption for through Azure and not have it like split up in 500 licenses here and two licenses there, and there is a budget limit here, and over there there is some free consumption because we um don't use that feature here.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, consumption.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's gonna be the feature.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna consume everything.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: What is not consuming um your pocket, only your time is this podcast.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, hopefully, hopefully it's cost you, you don't have to pay for this podcast.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: We could be charging people.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean that's something.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: We we could so we could charge people to stop of the podcast potentially.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, to listen to it.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: No, to to stop it, I would say.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is a bigger selling point.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so like uh we have a patron set up so that okay, if you're a subscriber, then effectively you you no longer see this anywhere on the internet, we basically block it for you.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: That would be this is a nice idea.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Just you pay like you pay like 20 20 a month, and then just like this person or this like this kind of content is not existing for you in on any social media in any like web search or something, it's just blocked out.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm gonna go.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm gonna go by code that's we need to we need to like go white coding now.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, uh it's a good note to to end this uh session.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of licensing today, licensing and schnitzels.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we'll drop some we'll drop some links in the description to some of the resources that I've been using a lot.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's yeah, every day is a school day for me at the moment, it feels like, and you need to really get your good handle on this because yeah, potent the potential to blow the bank in a very catastrophic style, I think is uh is quite possible here.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: So absolutely.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: So definitely makes sense to be aware of the costs, but as well be aware of what AI brings to the table and how it makes lives easier if it is.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and with that, thank you so much for tuning in.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, comment, like, share, subscribe, tell your parents, tell your children to listen to this podcast whoever you want to.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, force your children to listen to this podcast.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: That is the power you have.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Just sit them down, put you, put the headphones on them.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: They have to listen to this.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: This is their weekly education or fortnightly education.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Buy the three-year-old, their first iPhone, make them set up my account, download this podcast, make them listen to it that they are ready for the future.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and with that.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Joy.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um thank you.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: And see you uh in two weeks, Monday, as always, to Unresolved Dependencies.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: We are here to resolve this.