Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Gap Years, ATAR Myths & the Real Path to Success After School [with Amy Dyer]

Transcript

Gap Years, ATAR Myths & the Real Path to Success After School [with Amy Dyer] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, so we are getting towards the business end of
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: the year, especially if you are sending a year twelve
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: student off to school. We only have a matter of
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: weeks now until year twelve exams kick off. A whole
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: lot of schools have demanded that university applications go in
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: so that kids know what they're doing next year, assuming
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: they're going to go to UNI. Today on the podcast,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: a conversation about careers, career counseling and what your kids
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: are supposed to do when it comes to the end
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: of school. Stay with us. Hello and welcome to The
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Happy Family's podcast. Moname's doctor Justin Coulson. This is where
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: you get real parenting solutions every day on Australia's most
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: downloaded parenting podcast. Today, I am delighted to be joined
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  Speaker 1: by Amy Dyer. Amy Dyer is a careers counselor with
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  Speaker 1: more than twenty years of experience working with senior school
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  Speaker 1: students in schools around Queensland. Her aim is to empowers
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  Speaker 1: you some parents to make informed decisions regarding senior schooling
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  Speaker 1: and vocational and tertiary pathways. We will link to Amy's
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: details in the show notes. But Amy really glad that
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: you've joined me on the podcast today, I'm putting my
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  Speaker 1: fourth daughter, three year twelve. As we speak, she's about
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  Speaker 1: to do a final exams. We're literally living it and
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: going through everything's associated with it right now. And the
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: scaling conversation is one that keeps on coming up, and
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  Speaker 1: it's one that I sort of dismissed with a wave
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  Speaker 1: of the hand and say, don't worry about it, it
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  Speaker 1: doesn't matter. But for parents who are really concerned about
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  Speaker 1: how their students subjects, how their child subjects are going
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  Speaker 1: to be scaled up or down, and where they come
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  Speaker 1: in the class and the cohort and that sort of thing,
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  Speaker 1: what does this really mean?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, this could be a controversial answer because it's not
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  Speaker 2: going to suit the narrative of all schools. So scaling
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: is something if we're going to keep it really simple,
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  Speaker 2: where there is a governing body and they determine what
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  Speaker 2: subjects scale higher or lower. Scaling simply means that there
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  Speaker 2: is a decision that has been made by somebody else,
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  Speaker 2: not the school, that determines that, for example, a higher
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  Speaker 2: level math is harder.
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: To achieve well in than a lower level math. But
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: that spreads across the entire curriculum of subjects.
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  Speaker 2: So when we're talking scaling, there are a lot of
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  Speaker 2: myths out there, and I spend a lot of my
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  Speaker 2: day busting those myths. But essentially, from my point of
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  Speaker 2: view and from my opinion only, I look at scaling
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: as important if you are wanting, needing or know you
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: can achieve an ATAR of about a ninety five or higher.
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  Speaker 3: When we're playing in that.
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  Speaker 2: Upper end of the atars, we do need to look
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  Speaker 2: at scaling. Unfortunately, there are just some subjects that if
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: you choose to do them, they could limit your ability
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  Speaker 2: to get.
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  Speaker 3: Up into that range. But I guess the question justin
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  Speaker 3: is whether or not you need to be in that range, because.
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  Speaker 2: There is a way to get into any course and
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  Speaker 2: any outcome in any career, irrespective of ATA. And that
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: is the job that I essentially do working with students
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  Speaker 2: to look at what's direct and what we can use
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  Speaker 2: as a backup to get to UNI. But if we
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: start talking about scaling and making sure that we're doing
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: subjects that get us up into that high range, I
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  Speaker 2: think what we're essentially doing to our students is teaching
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  Speaker 2: them that the purpose of learning is to get the
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: best result possible. And as you and I know, if
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  Speaker 2: we can look at our time in industry and time
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  Speaker 2: in work, we're not actually about the best result. We're
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  Speaker 2: about the most appropriate result, what works for our business,
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  Speaker 2: what works for our day to day world. And that
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  Speaker 2: doesn't have to mean that we have achieved exceptionally well,
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  Speaker 2: it just means that we know what we're doing, and
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  Speaker 2: we're capable, and we actually enjoy what we're learning and
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  Speaker 2: what we're working toward.
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  Speaker 1: Amy, let's go there. I was going to come to
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: this later, but you've brought it up tertiary pathways. Well,
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  Speaker 1: first of all, I just have this belief that children
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: and shouldn't be going straight to university. So here's my
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  Speaker 1: question for your gap years gap yeares, Over the last
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  Speaker 1: i'd say ten years, I've shifted enormously from maybe to
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  Speaker 1: almost definitely accept in the rarest of cases. Now, that's
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: a fairly extreme position to hold. But where do you
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  Speaker 1: stand on gap years? What are your thoughts?
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  Speaker 2: I'm with you there, justin I would say that there
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  Speaker 2: was a point in time where I was the same
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  Speaker 2: as you that just be careful.
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  Speaker 3: We don't want to stop the momentum.
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  Speaker 2: We want that learning to continue from school, into university
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  Speaker 2: and then into industry. But recently there has been and
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  Speaker 2: when I say recently, I'm thinking somewhere in around the
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  Speaker 2: last five to ten years, there has been a certain
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  Speaker 2: change that has we just seem to be seeing higher
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  Speaker 2: levels of burnout with our students. And I find that
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  Speaker 2: I'm having a lot of conversations with students where they're saying,
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  Speaker 2: I just need a minute, I just need to finish
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  Speaker 2: year twelve, and I just need a in it.
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  Speaker 3: And I think because we go.
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  Speaker 2: Back to this narrative all the time of what is
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  Speaker 2: success when you're in a school system, success is the
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  Speaker 2: atar that's the ultimate for most students that are eligible.
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  Speaker 2: I find that if I'm having a conversation with my
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  Speaker 2: vocational students, that is not their narrative of success. They
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  Speaker 2: have found a different way to work through their schooling
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  Speaker 2: and they have a different idea of what their goals
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  Speaker 2: are and why they're working in the way that they are.
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  Speaker 2: But those that are working in an atar narrative, we
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  Speaker 2: are looking at success based on the number that they achieve.
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  Speaker 2: And I will often ask students do you have a
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  Speaker 2: number in mind? And they will simply say yes, I do.
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  Speaker 2: And I ask if you don't achieve that how you feel,
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  Speaker 2: and I do here certainly through a wide variety of
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  Speaker 2: clients that it can look like failure if they don't
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  Speaker 2: get to that number.
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  Speaker 1: So University, a couple of quick ideas here, and I'd
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  Speaker 1: love to get your support or any pushback on what
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  Speaker 1: I'm about to share. First off, I failed year twelve.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I keep on talking about how I graduated
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  Speaker 1: year twelve, but I think that's an inappropriate term to
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  Speaker 1: use because I scored on the bottom fifteenth percent of
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  Speaker 1: the state. But I did complete year twelve somehow. I've
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  Speaker 1: got a piece of paper that said that I was finished.
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  Speaker 1: So I finished school somehow. I got to the end
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  Speaker 1: of year twelve, had a radio career media for nearly
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  Speaker 1: a decade, and then went back to Taife and then
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  Speaker 1: university as a twenty seven year old and stayed for
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: eight and a half years full time study and ended
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  Speaker 1: up being a doctor. I have a couple of friends
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  Speaker 1: who have done similar things. In fact, I've got one
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  Speaker 1: mate who've finished school halfway through year eleven, just hated
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  Speaker 1: it and then went on to go to university later
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  Speaker 1: in life and became a He's now a specialist working
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  Speaker 1: in hospitals in South Australia. All of this is to say,
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  Speaker 1: we make such a big deal about getting into your
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  Speaker 1: first preference or getting into university or whatever it is.
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  Speaker 3: I feel like.
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  Speaker 1: There's just so much angst and so much stress around
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  Speaker 1: it completely unnecessarily tell me where I'm wrong or am
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  Speaker 1: I dead on?
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  Speaker 3: Here? Are you dead on?
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  Speaker 2: That's a big one to unpack, and I think I
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  Speaker 2: want to start with saying that when I meet with
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  Speaker 2: students and we are having genuine and authentic conversations about
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  Speaker 2: their interest areas, and I don't talk to them about
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  Speaker 2: their results at all, I ask them about the way
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  Speaker 2: in which they process information, how they like to learn,
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  Speaker 2: are they problem solvers?
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  Speaker 3: Are they communicators? I ask them a simple question like
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: what does leadership look like to you?
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  Speaker 2: And because we don't ask students these questions, because they're
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  Speaker 2: not wrapped up around assessments, they actually don't really know
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  Speaker 2: how to answer some of these questions. So when they
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  Speaker 2: are picking a course, and when we've sort of narrowed
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  Speaker 2: it down to a few areas, I'll find there's often
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  Speaker 2: hesitancy when we're looking at courses that have a high atar,
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  Speaker 2: and I will ask them is this because this is
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  Speaker 2: not some thing that you're thinking is for you, or
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  Speaker 2: are you worried you simply can't get the atar, so
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  Speaker 2: you are going to.
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  Speaker 3: Exclude it from your choices.
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  Speaker 2: And more often than not, students are putting those invisible
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  Speaker 2: barriers up because they think, well, I can't get to
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  Speaker 2: that atar, so therefore that can't be the career for me,
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  Speaker 2: even though after all of my questions that I've asked them,
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  Speaker 2: it would be a great fit.
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  Speaker 3: So that's when we have the conversation about what a
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  Speaker 3: pathway can look like.
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  Speaker 1: Let's talk about vocational studies and trades. My contention, my
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  Speaker 1: hypothesis is as follows. We have a trades shortage. We
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  Speaker 1: don't have enough houses, we don't have enough electricians, we
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  Speaker 1: don't have enough plumbers, we don't have enough people who
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  Speaker 1: can build stuff, and our country is only getting bigger.
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  Speaker 1: And therefore, my sense is that if you've got a
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  Speaker 1: child who wants to get into any of the trades,
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  Speaker 1: manual trades, or even the indoor trades, there is going
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  Speaker 1: to be so much demand for their services that they
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  Speaker 1: will be able to forge a successful career, make all
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  Speaker 1: the money that they need, and do just fine in life.
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  Speaker 1: Two questions here, Am I right? And how do we
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  Speaker 1: reduce the stigma for kids who go to university given
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  Speaker 1: that only thirty percent of Australia dults do have a
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  Speaker 1: university degree.
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  Speaker 2: Well, that's a big question and one that I actually
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  Speaker 2: feel genuinely passionate about. I've grown up in a family
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  Speaker 2: of tradees. I personally went to university, but I have
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  Speaker 2: a number of trades that surround me and they've been
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  Speaker 2: extremely successful in their lives. I think that we as
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  Speaker 2: parents need to do our research on the school we are.
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  Speaker 3: Sending our student to.
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  Speaker 2: And I might be baking a broad statement here, but
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  Speaker 2: we don't know what We don't know who our children.
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  Speaker 3: Are when we start them somewhere in prep.
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  Speaker 2: So for me, if I was looking for a school
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  Speaker 2: that was able to support my student whichever way that
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  Speaker 2: they decide to grow and develop, I would be looking
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  Speaker 2: at a school that comes from the angle of do
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  Speaker 2: they offer a broad curriculum and can my student or
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  Speaker 2: can my child world be successful in school with a
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  Speaker 2: trade and can they achieve well with an am tariff?
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  Speaker 3: UNI is for them?
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  Speaker 2: So we have our state schooling is amazing for that
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  Speaker 2: they have one of the most broadest curriculums that they
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  Speaker 2: can to suit all the different learners that go into
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  Speaker 2: our state system from the private sector. It is a business,
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  Speaker 2: and they are going to choose the narrative that best
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  Speaker 2: suits the clients how they're aiming for.
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  Speaker 3: So some private schools are going to be very heavy
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  Speaker 3: and vocational.
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  Speaker 2: Some are going to balance their curriculum across both, and
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  Speaker 2: others are going to stay in that more academic space.
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  Speaker 2: None of those schools are right or wrong. They all
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: have a place. We just have to make sure that
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: if our student is at a school where you're feeling
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  Speaker 2: it's not going to meet their needs moving forward, that
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  Speaker 2: it's okay to make a move.
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  Speaker 3: It's safe to make a move.
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  Speaker 2: And it will allow your student or your child to
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: be able to develop a skill set that aligns more
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  Speaker 2: with who they are as they grow and develop and
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  Speaker 2: as we learn who they are.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so my segue into my final question, how does
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  Speaker 1: other than maybe listen to a conversation like this, How
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  Speaker 1: does a kid in your ten year eleven or year twelve,
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  Speaker 1: or even a twenty four year old, or perhaps even
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: a forty six year old who's listening to us talk now,
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  Speaker 1: how do you decide what you're supposed to do with
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  Speaker 1: your life.
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  Speaker 3: You start with your best guess and see where it
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  Speaker 3: leads you.
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  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said that. I literally just put
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  Speaker 1: my hand up in the air. This is what I
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: keep saying to my kids. You're not supposed to know.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: You just try you just try stuff. Yeah, just be productive,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Just do something.
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  Speaker 2: And I want to also add to that, I just
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: want students and parents out there to genuinely hear just
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: because you don't follow the crowd doesn't mean you're not
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: learning and not continuing to develop your skill set. I
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: genuinely think it's a better type of learning when you
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: get out of what is such a standardized system that
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: schools are and you take a minute to work out
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  Speaker 2: who you are.
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  Speaker 1: Amy Dyer, what a delightful conversation. I really hope that
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: parents will share this with their kids who are going
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: through those senior years of school, and hopefully it will
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  Speaker 1: lead to some great discussions over the dining table about
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: what to do, how to do it, and when to
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: do it.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, I hope so too that they need that safe
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: space to be able to come.
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  Speaker 3: Up with it on their own.
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  Speaker 1: Amy Dyer is a careers counselor. You can find her
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: details at Amydier dot com dot you if you'd like
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: to engage with Amy and see if she can offer
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: the advice, support and direction that you might be struggling
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: to find in your family with your kids. Amy delight
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: to talk with you. Thanks so much for being on
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: the podcast. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: Ruland from Bridge Media. More information and resources to make
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: your family happier available at happy families dot com dot
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: u