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Did the Early Church Believe in the Rapture? | Lee Brainard | The Week in Bible Prophecy · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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  Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Well, hello everyone, welcome to the podcast today. Mondo Gonzalez
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  Speaker 2: here in studio with Lee Brainer. Welcome Lee, Mondo. It's
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  Speaker 2: good to be with you guys again. And what a
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  Speaker 2: topic to talk about. Yeah, this is a great topic
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  Speaker 2: because we see the confusion out there as it relates
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  Speaker 2: to dispensationalism, a kind of a big word.
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  Speaker 3: People wonder, well, what the heck does that mean?
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  Speaker 2: And there's there seems to be a lot of hatred,
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  Speaker 2: whether it's you use a word like dispensationalism or even Zionism,
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  Speaker 2: as we not only do we see it in the
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  Speaker 2: Christian Church, but we see it through the political We
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  Speaker 2: see it a little bit with certainly Tucker Carlson or
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  Speaker 2: Candice Owens some of the others that are become very
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  Speaker 2: anti Israel.
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  Speaker 3: Is that what you're seeing.
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  Speaker 1: I see the same thing, and I think we're going
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  Speaker 1: to see this anti Israel, anti Zionist, anti Jewish spirit
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  Speaker 1: continue to increase in America as we get towards the
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  Speaker 1: end of the age, because, as we know, one of
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  Speaker 1: the very signs that you've come right up to the
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  Speaker 1: end of the edge of the world is that the
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  Speaker 1: whole world is going to hate Israel for Christ's sake.
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  Speaker 2: And so you know, on that note, I heard one
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  Speaker 2: person say, give me any evidence at all of that claim.
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  Speaker 2: What biblical evidence would you have? I got my own views,
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  Speaker 2: but what biblical evidence would you have that there's hatred
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  Speaker 2: at the end of the age of the Jews. Specifically,
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  Speaker 2: what scripture comes to mind?
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  Speaker 1: Well, in the Gospels we read in several passages that
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  Speaker 1: you should be hated of all nations or all men
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  Speaker 1: for my Name's sake.
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  Speaker 3: Was he speaking only plain Devil's advocate?
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  Speaker 1: Yep?
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  Speaker 2: Was he speaking only to the Jews standing in front
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  Speaker 2: of him, or was he speaking to the Church or
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  Speaker 2: believers in general.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I think he was definitely addressing the people in
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  Speaker 1: nation of Israel, the Jews. It was in a context
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  Speaker 1: talking about the tribulation. But it's also I think perfectly
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  Speaker 1: legitimate to take and lift that principle up and apply
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  Speaker 1: it to Christians because we bear the same testimony.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I look and see when you come to
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  Speaker 2: like Zachari twelve, right at the end that you have,
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  Speaker 2: I will make Jerusalem burdensome stone, and all nations will
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  Speaker 2: come against it. You're like, well, that sounds pretty clear,
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  Speaker 2: right as it relates to that. I also see two
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  Speaker 2: even in Zachari fourteen, there's a great war where Jesus
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  Speaker 2: is appearing and all the nations are gathered together. Even
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  Speaker 2: when we talk about Armagedon, where they gathered, whether they're
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  Speaker 2: gathered in Israel, right, and whether you're at Meguido or
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  Speaker 2: whether you're down south in the Valley of Joseph. Lots
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  Speaker 2: of argument on where Armagedon is, but nevertheless they're there.
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  Speaker 2: And then we see in Zachara are in Revelation twelve,
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  Speaker 2: what is the devil doing? Right, He's going after the Jews.
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  Speaker 2: That's right.
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  Speaker 3: So I mean there is definite evidence.
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  Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, you can't miss the anti Semitism, anti Zionism
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  Speaker 1: in the Bible unless you intentionally miss it.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, or if you try to say that's been fulfilled.
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  Speaker 1: Well.
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  Speaker 2: The other thing too, that comes up, and what we
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  Speaker 2: want to discuss today is has helped define some terms.
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  Speaker 2: Because I love friendly discussion or debate. Even I have
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  Speaker 2: a lot of friends. We interview people who are Covenant theologians.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe they're all millennial, they don't believe in a physical millennium.
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  Speaker 2: I want to make sure I represent them right, because
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  Speaker 2: all millennial means non millennium, right, like an atheist and
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  Speaker 2: a in the front is a denier of the word. So,
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  Speaker 2: but a millennialists they they believe in a they believe
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  Speaker 2: in a millennium. Okay, but it's not a physical one,
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  Speaker 2: that's right, it's a spiritual one. And it's not necessarily
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  Speaker 2: even a millennium because of millennium means thousand years.
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  Speaker 3: So, but these are our brothers and sisters in Christ, right,
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  Speaker 3: we love.
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  Speaker 2: Them and we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna spend the
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  Speaker 2: millennium with them, and I think a physical one.
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  Speaker 3: But they will often position themselves.
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  Speaker 2: And we're going to unpack this as being anti dispensationalism. Well,
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  Speaker 2: first of all, what in the world talk about just
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  Speaker 2: the word itself and dispensationalism as a system. You hear
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  Speaker 2: that phraseology too, What does it mean? What does dispensationalism mean?
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  Speaker 2: And let's unpack that.
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  Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I want to make sure that
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  Speaker 1: people understand that dispensationalism is not a synthetic system that
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  Speaker 1: you take and you place on the Bible and you
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  Speaker 1: forced the Bible to fit the system. Dispensationalism is simply
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  Speaker 1: a hermoneutical concept, a hermoneutical approach to the scriptures. You
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  Speaker 1: start with the literal hermoneutic, the historical grammatical hermeneutic, where existently, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: you're going to be consistent about it. You're going to
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  Speaker 1: let Israel be Israel. You're going to let the Church
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  Speaker 1: be the Church. You're going to trust the plain statements
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  Speaker 1: about the tribulation, about the Antichrist, about a millennium, about
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  Speaker 1: the thousand years, about the arrival of the Kingdom at
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  Speaker 1: the second Coming. You take all this at face value.
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  Speaker 1: That's the foundation of the whole thing. It's really how
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  Speaker 1: you approach the Bible. And then we build on top
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  Speaker 1: of that with the outcome of that hermeneutic. And we
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  Speaker 1: so we'll say, okay, if we follow this hermonutic, we're
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  Speaker 1: going to have a clear distinction between Israel and the Church.
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  Speaker 1: God has one new covenant program that he's working through Israel,
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  Speaker 1: and there's an aspect of that new covenant program that
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  Speaker 1: applies to the Gentiles. There's one new Covenant, but it's
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  Speaker 1: going to have one blessing for Israel and one blessing
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  Speaker 1: for the gentile dominated Church, but also On top of
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  Speaker 1: that foundation, that hermeneutical foundation, we're going to bring up
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  Speaker 1: a couple other things. We're going to say, Okay, we
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  Speaker 1: believe in a literal seven year twelation at the end
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  Speaker 1: of the age, because we take Daniel nine twenty four
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  Speaker 1: through twenty seven. Literally, we're expecting somewhere off in the
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  Speaker 1: unknown future the final seven years, and those seven years
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  Speaker 1: are declared upon Israel. The first sixty nine weeks were
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  Speaker 1: upon Israel, the last week will be upon Israel.
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  Speaker 3: Two.
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  Speaker 1: But we also a third one that we could put
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  Speaker 1: up on top of there that comes straight from the hermaeutic.
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  Speaker 1: The Bible talks about a future kingdom, a literal thousand year.
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  Speaker 3: Kingdom physic physical kingdom. Yeah, And it.
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  Speaker 1: Mentions the kingdom in the Old Testament with only a
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  Speaker 1: couple hints of its length, no clear statement of its length.
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  Speaker 1: We come to the Book of Revelation in our chapter
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  Speaker 1: twenty we find its length mentioned six times in one
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  Speaker 1: short stretch of scripture, at one thousand years. So we
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  Speaker 1: have these things here that are clear results of the hermeneutic,
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  Speaker 1: and so we don't force the Bible into this literal kingdom.
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  Speaker 1: We don't force the Bible into a literal tribulation. We
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  Speaker 1: don't force the Bible into this hard distinction between his
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  Speaker 1: and the Church. We actually got that simply from our hermeneutic.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that is that.
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  Speaker 2: It really is the key when I look at there's
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  Speaker 2: a variety of aspects of what we understand is the
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  Speaker 2: formalized system of dispensationalism.
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  Speaker 3: But the core nugget, I mean, if you wanted.
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  Speaker 2: To and this has come straight out of Charles Ryery's
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  Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five ninety six book. So you know, I'm
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  Speaker 2: not quoting somebody else, or I'm not quoting even as
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  Speaker 2: somebody that's that's a detractor quote the original guy, right,
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  Speaker 2: but he gives it, he brings it down. He says,
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  Speaker 2: if you can't strip away everything else, the pre trips,
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  Speaker 2: strip away everything else. And you were to summarize this
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  Speaker 2: into three things, it would be the core foundation of
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  Speaker 2: the system of dispensationalism is number one, taking the Bible
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  Speaker 2: in a very little harm Renukal way what you just
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  Speaker 2: said consistently literal normal. We understand when Jesus said in
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  Speaker 2: John ten, I am the door. He's not talking about
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  Speaker 2: cedar or redwood or mahogany. It's a metaphor. Okay, so
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  Speaker 2: even a literal hermonautic taking the Bible in a plane way.
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  Speaker 2: The typical thing is if the plain sense makes common sense,
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  Speaker 2: seek no other sense. Right, So that's we hear that phrase.
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  Speaker 2: And that's the thing is if the text is going
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  Speaker 2: to be spiritualized or you know, made figurative or metaphorical,
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  Speaker 2: there should be something there that would warrant that. But
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  Speaker 2: normally take everything in a normal, plain way. That's the
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  Speaker 2: first cardinal point. The second cardinal point is based on
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  Speaker 2: the first one. We see Israel and the Church being distinct.
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  Speaker 2: It's just it plays itself out. The Church is not
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  Speaker 2: the new Israel and the Israel was not the pre Church.
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  Speaker 2: So and there's a lot of ways to unpack that.
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  Speaker 2: And the third one is just everything God does is
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  Speaker 2: for his glory. You're like, that's dispensationalism at its core. Really,
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  Speaker 2: that's it. And so what I want to say, yes,
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  Speaker 2: that's it. But I would also say that every Christian,
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  Speaker 2: every single Christian today, holds to some form of dispensationalism.
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  Speaker 2: And they're gonna go no, no, no, and you go no, no.
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  Speaker 2: Hold on a minute, because do you eat right exactly.
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  Speaker 2: Dispensation is is a is a Greek word, okay, nomia right,
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  Speaker 2: it means Oikos means house right or and noma means law.
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  Speaker 3: So you have like a ruler of a house, a house,
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  Speaker 3: a household ruler. And it's the word is in the Bible.
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  Speaker 2: So this is like you say, well, I'm not a dispensationalist,
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  Speaker 2: so you don't believe the Bible, because I'll read it here.
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  Speaker 2: And if He'sians one ten sart in verse nine, it says,
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  Speaker 2: having made known to us the mystery of his will,
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  Speaker 2: according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in himself,
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  Speaker 2: that in the dispensation of the fullness of times, he
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  Speaker 2: might gather together in one all things in Christ, both
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  Speaker 2: which are in heaven and are on earth.
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  Speaker 3: I'm reading this is the new King James. I believe, yep.
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  Speaker 3: So there's the word dispensation. If ess ten.
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  Speaker 2: And if we go to Pesians three, verse two, Paul says,
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  Speaker 2: for this reason, I Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus
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  Speaker 2: for you gentiles, if indeed you have heard of the
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  Speaker 2: dispensation of the grace of God which was given to
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  Speaker 2: me for you. So it's this idea of a of
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  Speaker 2: a of an economy or a management. But I'll just
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  Speaker 2: say this that the reason why I say every U
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  Speaker 2: Christian is a dispensation is because none of us are
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  Speaker 2: going out and offering a sacrifice that's right. And so
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  Speaker 2: if you talk to anybody that, even a covenant theologian,
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  Speaker 2: you'd say, hey, do you offer did you offer your sacrifice?
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  Speaker 2: To go oh, no, we don't do that, and you
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  Speaker 2: go why not because and they go, well, well, what
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  Speaker 2: do you mean. It's go, well, you don't offer a
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  Speaker 2: sacrifice because that was part of the previous Come on, man.
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  Speaker 3: Say dispensation.
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  Speaker 2: It was part of the previous dispensation. And all we're
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  Speaker 2: saying is that when we look at the Bible, we
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  Speaker 2: recognize that God works with humanity in different ways. For
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  Speaker 2: I'll give you one example and get your thoughts on this,
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  Speaker 2: because you mentioned pork Well in dispensationalism has seven different
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  Speaker 2: They recognize seven different dispensations of the Bible. Again, everybody
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  Speaker 2: believes at least two Old Testament sacrifices and New Testaments,
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  Speaker 2: so there's at least two. But we also even some
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  Speaker 2: of the early Church fathers, they had several at least
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  Speaker 2: four or five. Even Augustine had several and we recognized, well,
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  Speaker 2: in the garden they were innocent, and they ate day vegetables, right,
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  Speaker 2: Genesis one day vegetables, there was no meat.
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  Speaker 3: Sorry, man, vegetarians.
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  Speaker 2: Well, then even after they fell, let's just continue that
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  Speaker 2: up until the time of the flood Genesis nine. After
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  Speaker 2: the flood, God says, you can now eat meat, just
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  Speaker 2: don't drink the blood. You're like, oh, well, we recognized,
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  Speaker 2: well something changed. See got interacted with man differently. And
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  Speaker 2: then when we come to Leviticus eleven with Moses, God says, okay,
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  Speaker 2: I said before for all of humanity you can eat
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  Speaker 2: meat nor blood. But now I'm going to be even
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  Speaker 2: more restrictions on you. No pork, et cetera, shrimp. And
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  Speaker 2: then we come to the New Testament. And in all
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  Speaker 2: the sacrifice and we come to a New Testament, people
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  Speaker 2: can argue whether those are lifted up. We at least
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  Speaker 2: we know we're not doing sacrifices anymore. So right there,
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  Speaker 2: you have several dispensations, so we're all dispensationalists. And at
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  Speaker 2: the end of the day, what I tell people is
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  Speaker 2: you have to admit that we're not forcing that frame
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  Speaker 2: framework on the Bible.
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  Speaker 3: It's there, isn't it.
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  Speaker 1: That's right. And another thing that people need to understand,
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  Speaker 1: dispensation lists didn't invent in the mid eighteen hundreds the
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  Speaker 1: concepts of dispensations. They inherited them from their Puritan forefathers.
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  Speaker 1: They were part of the Reformation testimony, and the Reformation
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  Speaker 1: testimony got it because dispensations had come all the way
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  Speaker 1: through Church history from the early Fathers now at the
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  Speaker 1: time of the Reformation, and then up in the time
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  Speaker 1: of the Puritans up to John Darby. People varied whether
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  Speaker 1: they saw three, four or five dispensations prior to the
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  Speaker 1: time of the Church, but they treated dispense exactly the
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  Speaker 1: way dispensationalists do. Didn't matter if they were all millennial.
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  Speaker 1: They treated the dispensations exactly the same. They had the
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  Speaker 1: same explanations for them, the same descriptions of them, the
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  Speaker 1: same content in those dispensations. So what it comes down
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  Speaker 1: to is really when we're talking about non dispensationalism versus dispensationalism,
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  Speaker 1: we're talking about whether we have completed dispensationalism or incompleted dispensationalism.
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  Speaker 1: The only issue is is there one more dispensation coming
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  Speaker 1: before the eternal state?
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  Speaker 3: Right, and that is the kingdom, that is the thousand
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  Speaker 3: year kingdom.
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  Speaker 2: And so so let's go back for another because there's
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  Speaker 2: no doubt if you certainly there's other major components, as
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  Speaker 2: you mentioned in the full understanding of what dispensationalism taught,
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  Speaker 2: but it's you talked about the kingdom. So let's bring
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  Speaker 2: that up because one of the elements, one of the
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  Speaker 2: one of the again we can limit to three, but
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  Speaker 2: let's say, what are the ten core elements? As an
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  Speaker 2: example of this sationalism is these other things? You mentioned
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  Speaker 2: the preacher rapture seven of WEEKA Daniel being future, and
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  Speaker 2: you mentioned the physical literal kingdom. Okay, so it's really
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  Speaker 2: most people aren't dispensational. And let's say A'm millennial. That
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  Speaker 2: that's kind of contradictory, right, right, because to be dispensational,
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  Speaker 2: you you really have to believe in a physical, literal kingdom. Now,
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  Speaker 2: let's focus on that for a moment because if someone
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  Speaker 2: wants to say, well, I'm a millennial and I'm not
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  Speaker 2: and I'm not a dispensational as this, okay, somebody you'd say, well, dismissationalism.
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  Speaker 2: Lee started with Derby in eighteen thirty, right, and you go, well, okay,
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  Speaker 2: which part of that are you saying started with Derby? Okay,
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  Speaker 2: obviously we just said that the idea of dispensations did
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  Speaker 2: not start with Darby. That started within the church fathers.
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  Speaker 2: To start, I just read it out of the Bible.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Paul's talking about this, this dismisation, and he calls it
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  Speaker 2: of the grace of God post Jesus. So let's take
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  Speaker 2: another element. Thousand years Okay, millennialism. Did that start with Derby?
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  Speaker 1: No, it absolutely did not. We go back. We see
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  Speaker 1: many people from the Reformation forwards who taught a literal
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  Speaker 1: thousand year kingdom. We go back through church history, we
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  Speaker 1: go back to the early Fathers. We see a number
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  Speaker 1: of the early Fathers taught a literal thousand year long kingdom.
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  Speaker 1: It was more prevalent in the first few centuries the
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  Speaker 1: church than later on, but it had a remnant testimony
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  Speaker 1: that went relatively.
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  Speaker 2: Deep called killism. Right, yes, killism a killiasm. You know
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  Speaker 2: how you pronounce it? So killiasm here? So killiasm. Why
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  Speaker 2: is it called killiasm.
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  Speaker 1: Because that is the Greek word for a thousand Kilia,
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  Speaker 1: where millennia is a Latin word for one thousand.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, so now so here again people say dispensationalism began
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  Speaker 2: with Darby, and we've already established that the idea of
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  Speaker 2: dispensations didn't begin a Derby start in the Bible. That's sorry,
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  Speaker 2: and everybody's a dispensationalist in that framework. Under that definition.
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  Speaker 2: We also recognized that, now this thousand year reign physically
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  Speaker 2: did not start with Darby either. A major component of
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  Speaker 2: modern dispensation did not start there.
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  Speaker 3: It started in the Church fathers, right.
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  Speaker 1: That's right. In fact, it goes deep in the Church fathers.
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  Speaker 1: Some of the early rabbis prior to the time of Christ,
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  Speaker 1: and their tradition passed through to the rabbis after the
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  Speaker 1: time of Christ. These rabbis taught that there was going
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  Speaker 1: to be a glorious reign of Christ the Messiah. They
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  Speaker 1: didn't know who is going to be but their Christ
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  Speaker 1: or the Messiah for a thousand years they saw it coming.
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  Speaker 1: Did they use the term a thousand some of them did.
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  Speaker 1: They did have a thousand.
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  Speaker 3: Years that's pretty important.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, And they what they saw is based on things
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  Speaker 1: like Hosea, not Hoseah. But yeah, Hoseah, Yeah, yeah, Hoseah
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  Speaker 1: five and six. That was the fact that Israel was
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  Speaker 1: going to be set aside. They had a time of
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  Speaker 1: the Gentiles followed by a return to Israel.
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  Speaker 2: Well, they had the two days, you know, right, two
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  Speaker 2: days and then then the third day he'll revive us,
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  Speaker 2: which would give at least a conceptual idea of more
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  Speaker 2: than I would think that a covenant. The logian would
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  Speaker 2: love that because it's a little bit of a spiritualization
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  Speaker 2: of Hosea six to one and two that you know,
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  Speaker 2: two days again he will hurt us, and then and
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  Speaker 2: the third day he will revive us and we will
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  Speaker 2: live in a site after two days, so you have
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  Speaker 2: this idea of that being one thousand years per day,
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  Speaker 2: two thousand years, and then in the third day would
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  Speaker 2: be a thousand year you know whatever.
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  Speaker 3: The third day or the third the Sabbath.
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  Speaker 2: Basically, they understood this, and that's kind of what I
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: see too, is that many of them, especially the early Church,
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: had this idea of that there would be six thousand
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: years of history followed by a thousand years of Sabbath kingdom.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, based.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: On you know, the the typology of the creation. We
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: so no doubt the Jews went on that as well.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: So let's let's go to another character another characteristic of
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: dispinse of again full blown dispensationalism, and that is what
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: about a tribulation period? Okay, so people say, well, the
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: whole idea of a tribulation period also seventy week of
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Daniel started with Darby.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: But this idea of a.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Tribulation period for a specific segment of time, people say
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: that that's started in eighteen thirty.
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: Okay, talk about that.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Well, I would say, let's just go back to Daniel
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: chapter nine, verses twenty four through twenty seven. Read the
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: passage slowly, clearly. Working through that passage with sixth grade
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: level grammar, We're going to see very clearly that the
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: Messiah was crucified after the sixty.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: Ninth week ended.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Yeap, the sixty ninth week ended, and he's crucified not
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: for himself, and then often the distant future we have
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: the seventieth week starting. But in between the close of
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: the sixty ninth week and the start of the seventieth
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: week you have the crucifixion of the Siah and the
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of the Romans, and
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: the coming of the Prince who is to come from
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: the Roman people. So you've got these three things that
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: are in between the sixth the close of the sixty
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: ninth week, and the start of the seventieth week. So
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: these weeks do not touch together. It's a future seventieth week,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: and it doesn't The passage doesn't tell us how much
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: time is going to evolve in that window or that parenthesis,
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: but it does demand a window or parenthesis at.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Least of forty years. Yeah, at least a minimum. This
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: is what's to me. It's really it's mind boggling that
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: many people try to in the Covenant camp or even
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: the Jews if you see them today, because you can
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: tell that they were arguing against the Christian interpretation of that.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: They try to make either the seventieth week already all
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: those seven weeks fulfilled. But from a Covenant perspective, is
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: this idea that well, well of that seventieth week, that
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: final seventy week, the sixty nine weeks ended, so now
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: you have another seven years and they want to see
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: them contiguous. There's no gap there. So then they say, well, okay,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: Jesus started it. So the first three and a half
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: years where his were part of that seventieth week, and
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: then the second three and a half years obviously was
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: something else. And you go, well, wait a minute, how
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: does that even possible? How is that possible? Because the
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: seventieth Week didn't begin sequentially until the temples destroyed.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: That's right, it's impossible.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: That's right. And if you were gonna stick with a
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: literal seven years and you measure that from AD seventy,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: you're not gonna go the kingdom should have come at
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: a D seventy seven, right, or whatever's gonna happen should.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: Have whatever should have happened.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is where you so here again, let's
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: go back a little bit to what we understand as
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: a you have Obviously there is I can read it.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: Let me read this in Daniel nine. A lot of
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: people will argue that, well, why are you guys assuming
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: that the seventieth week mentioned here is identical to the tribulation, okay?
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Or using Daniel twelve's language a time of great trial,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: a great wrath, we see Jesus using similar language, something
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: that's never happened in the history of the world. Up
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: until then it never will be again. He's quoting Daniel
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: chapter twelve. But in Daniel nine it talks about it
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: says this, then he shall confirm a covenant with many
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: for one week, but in the middle of the week
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: he shall bring an end to sacrifice, an offering, and
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: desolate even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: out on the desolate or the desolator. Here we have
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: this idea of desolations. Yes, that doesn't seem like a
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: positive thing, right.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: No, I mean once you take up the subject of
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: the abomination of desolation, you're taking up the subject of
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: the Antichrist. You're now in the ground or on the
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: ground of a literal tribulation at the end of the age.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's not like even in the language itself,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: it's associating this time with a time of trouble.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: And here's a guy called the desolator.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: So he's coming in, he's desolating things, right, And what
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: is desolation, Well, it means to bring something to ruin, right,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: So you have that imagery, but also talk about because
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: I don't think anybody there's very few I'll say it
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: that way that has done as much as you have
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: done in the early Church Fathers, especially in the non
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: English Church Fathers, which most people don't have access to,
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: and you were researching them looking for language that would
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: speak about all of these things that we understand, you know,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: an antichrist, a tribulation period, even a rapture, which we'll
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: get to the rapture in a second. Talk about even
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: what you have found, especially Ireneus who has discussed the
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: idea of a tribulation, physical literal, a physical literal Antichrist.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, people say, oh, what's wrong with you people?
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: You know this that all started with Darby. That's dispensationalism
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: on steroids. Again, a distinction of modern dismensationalism is the
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: idea that there's going to be a literal Antichrist and
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: there's going to be this period of tribulation, which we
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: describe as the seventieth Week of Daniel. There's going to
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: be a literal guy in a literal temple, et cetera.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: And they'll say that started with Derby. So once again,
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: is that true?
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Absolutely not true. I mean, because when you take up Ironeus,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: you're taking up a man who lived about seventeen hundred
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: years prior to where Darby's pre tribulational ministry started. And
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: so when you look an iron As, we discover something
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: very interesting. Not only did he teach a preacher a rapture,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: he taught the foundation stones of dispensationalism, a distinction between
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Israel and the church. Now we say Israel in the church.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: His common terminology is the Old Testament church and the
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: New Testament Church.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: Now let's before I don't want to move too fast.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: The word church comes from comes from eclac and the Greek.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: So he's writing in Greek.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Eclecia just means what the assembly or the synagogue, or
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: the gathering.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: The gathering.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: So we oftentimes today we will use the word church,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: and certainly dispensationalists do. They will use it as a
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: technical church. Right, But that isn't that that we have
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: to be careful of that, right because that could work
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: against the idea where you say, oh, well, church, he's
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: using the word church there and he's talking about, uh,
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: the Old Testament eclesa.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: But that's it's just a general Greek word right right.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: Well, and where it comes from is iron As was
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: using the septuagen the Greek translation of the Old Testament,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: which uses the word ecclesia dozens and dozens of times
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: as a representation of Israel, particularly Israel in the wilderness.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: And you have the word a dot uh Hebrew, which
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: is the word congregation. And so you even today you
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: have like if there's several Messianic churches, Messianic congregations sale
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: use of that word. They're called adat Shalom or you know,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: a dot yashua. There they are the congregation of the
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Messiah or machiak. And so the Hebrew word a dot
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: is translated in the Old tested subtuogen as ecclesia. So
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: it's not a technical term only for the New Testament
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: eclesia the church made up of Jews and Gentiles, and
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: so this So when so talk about that, because many
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: of the Covenant theologians will say, see there there's iron
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: as not making a distinction between the two groups, but
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: they're forcing It's interesting how they're forcing a New Testament
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: dispensational distinction. I don't know why they embrace that on
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: the passage, but that's not what the passage is say.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: It's exactly right. So What Ironeus does is he talks
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: about the Old Testament Church. God's going to finish his
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: program with the Old Testament Church, goes into the New
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Testament Church, the New Testament era where we're at. He's
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: got a few things left to finish with the Old
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Testament Church, but he goes to the New Testament Church.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: He's going to finish the New Testament Church program, and
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: then he's going to go back and pick up the
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Old Testament Church where we left off. And in the tribulation,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: a literal tribulation, the Old Testament Church is going to
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: be persecuted by the Antichrist. In the tribulation, the Old
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Testament Church is going to offer sacrifices in the Temple
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: that are acceptable to God. So he's got the Old
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Testament program, which is Israel in the tribulation offering sacrifices
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: and persecuted. Now people say, well, see the churches being
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: persecuted by the Antichrist. He's talking about the Old Testament Church,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: not Juice Church chose. And he makes it very clear.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: And this is a classic example that if you don't
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: understand the person's ecclesiology, you probably are not going to
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: understand their eschatology. Either.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's super powerful because again when you I look
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: at one of the best examples is First Quentins ten,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: verse thirty two, where Paul says, give no offense to
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: the Jew or the Gentile or the Church. That's right,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: And you go, whoa, whoa, whoa, where's he getting these
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: three three groups? He basically separates out the Church as
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: being a distinct group from the Jews and Gentiles. Now
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: we know that this new body of believers Ephesian chapter
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: two is made up of Jews and Gentiles, but it's
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: a one new body.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: That's right, That's what I find it.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: It's separated from the the idea of of Old Testament
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: national Israel, that's corporate Israel, and so so so. Here again,
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: let's let's summarize a couple of things. Many of the
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: many of the distinctions of what we understand is dispensationalism.
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: Clearly did not start with Darby, right.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: That's absolutely right. They're they're they're based in the Bible.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: They were understood, many of them by the Old Testament Jews,
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: they were understood by the early Church. They were lost
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: in the Church are largely buried when replacement theology took
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: over starting in the second century and coming full hilt,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: full tilt by the third century.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: So let let's make let's let's bring up another point
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: here is that when when you're having a discussion about
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: these theological points, maybe somebody's watching, you know, as somebody
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: who's dispensational have a debate with somebody who's a millennial
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: or covenant theologian or you know, comes from a reformed
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: perspective as an example, many times both of them will
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: appeal to the early Church.
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: Now, to me, the early Church is the early Church monolithic.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: Absolutely not. It's no different than today. It's no different
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: than today. So I can appeal to my early church father.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: That guy's going to appeal to his early church father,
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: and then what do we do? Right, So this is
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: where the limits of appealing to the early Church is.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: By definition it's limited.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: But many people will say, well, I hold onto the
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: view that has been around for eighteen hundred years. And
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: you go, says, who who are you appealing to? Because
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: if you're appealing to because what they'll say often is
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: the view that I hold is a is a view
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: that was pre Darby, And you go, well, are you
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: talking about Ironas are you talking about origin a right?
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: I mean, are you talking about Augustine?
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: So even there they were on polar opposites, right.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So the real value of the early Church Fathers
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: is not to determine who's right. The real value of
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: the Early Church Fathers for the dispensationalist is to have
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: plenty of animal to prove that it's simply not true
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: that pre tribulationism, a literal tribulation, a literal millennium a
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: dispensationalism didn't exist until Darby. So, because one of the
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: main arguments thrown against dispensationalism is we don't have to
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: weigh your arguments. We know that you're using the Bible
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: deceptively because nobody in Church history, no early father ever
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: taught it until Darby. So this is an invented fiction
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: in the eighteen thirties. It belongs in the same category
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: as Seven Day of Venice and Jelba Witnesses. But we
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: are able to show from Protestants from the beginning of
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: the Reformation forwards the Derby, and we're able to show
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: in the early Church, and there's a few hints of
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: it in the medieval ages, too sure that there were
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: pre tribulationists dispensationless in prior to Darby. So we completely
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: throw out that argument that dispensationalism didn't exist simply by
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: referring to church history. Once we've thrown that bogus position out,
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: now we have to have a man demand eyeball to
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: eyeball debate simply on what saith the scriptures.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, because let me bring up another one, because
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: I'm saving the pre Chrier rapture, which is clearly distinctively dispensational, right,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: I'm saving that distinctive for last. The other one that
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: comes up often, which I see, which of course I've
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: written about in my book The Red Heifer.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: The mystery of the Red Heifer is this.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Idea that there's going to becoming a future tribulation period
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: which is going to have a temple in it, a physical, literal,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: rebuilt temple, which is going to include sacrifices that are happening.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: And not that I'm embracing in that endorsing that simply
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: just it's a matter of fact that that's going to happen. Well,
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: as we see many people have said that's again that
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: comes from dispensational heresy, dispensationalism, heresy, and I go, wait,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: wait a minute, and the if you go onto our
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: website and I've put this there profitswatchers dot com slash
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: temple made it really easy.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: I discussed are we crazy?
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Are we crazy to believe in a third physical temple
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: being rebuilt according to prophetic scriptures? And so I go
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: through and I answer the different things, but it comes
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: back to a literal hormonety. But secondly, I said, for
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: all of those people that say this idea only began
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: with Darby, I went through and gave I mean, it's
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: probably longer than my article is.
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: Scripture are not scripture but historical.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: Data after data boom boom boom, talking about all not all, certainly,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: but so many places in the church fathers that describe
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: the Antichrist a real literal guy sitting in a very
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: real literal temple that has been rebuilt at the end
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: of the age. This is post seventy a d. These
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: are church fathers that are saying this. So once again,
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: what we want to say is if you say, if
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: somebody says that believing in a physical temple being rebuilt
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: at the end of the age is distinctively dispensational heresy
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: and only begin with Darby is one hundred percent false.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: That's exactly right. If people are going to go down
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: that path, there's really only two explanations. Either they don't
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: know enough about church history that they should stop talking
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: about the subject until they actually learn some church history,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: or they are willing to twist the facts of history,
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: ignore the facts of history, sweep them under the rug
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: to win the debate. That's not a good look. You know,
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: if we're going to actually embraced the historical grammatical hermeneutic,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: which everybody professes to believe, if they're a conservative evangelical,
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: we've got to stick with the facts of history and
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: the facts of grammar and the plain statements of scripture.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: And if you go back and you study history, it's
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: very clear there was there will be a literal tribulation
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: with a literal temple and a literal anti Christ. This
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: is very common in early fathers. What's interesting about this,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: some of these early fathers, like Ucbius and Efhriem, the
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Syrian that taught this point, they were actually all millennial,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: which is very fascinating because throwing away a literal millennium
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: happened earlier than actually throwing away a literal tribulation.
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: Right, which is interesting because.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: The reason I just having a conversation with a friend
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: of brother in Christ and he's a millennial, and I
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: had asked him, do you believe in a tribulation?
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: And he goes, yeah, he goes.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: I have no problem with an anti Christ coming, you know,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: and ending the age. So for them, you and Leaven
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: like somebody like RC. Sproll at least originally some people
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: claim he became post millennial, but in his book Last
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Days according Jesus, but many of the of the all
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: millennials still believe that there is a final tribulation. Uh,
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: it's you can't really be post millennial and believe that
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: because post millennial means you're gonna end on a good note, right,
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: and then you're gonna you've brought the millennium and then
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: Jesus returns. But for those that are all millennial, they
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: often can embrace a tribulation period in anti Christ, and
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: then Jesus comes back in moments over then we're into
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: we're into the eternal age. So that's but like you said,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: historically speaking, they they got rid of the millennium first
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: before they got rid of the tribulation, and many of
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: today just of course some of the real strong preteris
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: or others, they've gotten rid of all of it altogether.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Now in the last few minutes here the key distinction,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: I would say that that really makes you a dispensationalist. Again,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: not the other things, because those were all prior to Derby.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: The big dog, I mean here we are Lee the
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: big one that people will will make the claim is
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: that this idea of a pre trib rapture, a rapture
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: prior to this seventy the Week of Daniel or the
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: day of the Lord a seven year period is only
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: found in modern day Darbyite dispensationalism. That no one else
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: had this view prior. Now again I'm sitting here speaking
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: to the guy who's written more on this.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: Is is that true?
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Absolutely not. If you go with an open heart, willing
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: to let the plain statements of the early church fathers
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: be taken at face value, and you actually investigate look
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: at things in context, you're going to see that the Ditticky,
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: which was probably written either in the end of the
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: first century or the very beginning of the second, was
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: pre Trim and the Didock. He was in the era
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: of when either they at the tail end of John
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: the Apostle, John's life or very shortly after his death,
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: it was pre Trim. You come to Ireneus, who claims
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: that AD just so.
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: People, he's around toward AD one.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: Five, right, Yeah, Well, and Ireneus says that he got
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: his teaching on eschatology from aged men who had sat
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: at the feet of the Apostles themselves. There's one step
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: removed from the Apostles, basically Papias and Polycarp that's who
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: he learned it from him. And Papias and Polycarp learned
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: it from John and Clement, and Clement was in there
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: and they learned it from John and Peter and James.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: So we have a very close proximity here to the
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: early Apostles themselves. And so this early church father, iron
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: As very clearly taught in four different passages a pre
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: tribulation rapture.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: See.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: So this is important too because the let's you just
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: give the title of your book, because again for people
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: that say, well, I've never heard that before, all this
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: is is one hundred percent derby, and you're going to
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: go no, and so talk about your book.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: Okay. So the book is called Recent pre trib Findings
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: in the Early Church Fathers. It's available on Amazon and Watchers, yeah,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: prostly Watchers in a few other places. And what the
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: book does is it brings out the pre trib argument
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: from the Didiki, from iron As, from Freemnissyrian, and from Eusebius. Now,
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: there were already the most dispensationlests were already aware that
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: there was a pre trib argument in the Didiki and
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: in iron Aus. But what I did is I clarified
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: and expanded on the argument for a pre trib rapture
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: and gave people some information that they were not aware of, especially.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: The use of the language like you said with iron
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: Ares and using Ecclesia and others contextually.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: And then when it comes to Eusebius, I brought out
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: nine pre tribulation rapture passages that nobody was aware of existed.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: As far as I know, nobody even knew or guessed
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: that Eusebius was pre trib until I brought this information out.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: It's not found in his works that are translated, but
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: he's got some strong evidence for a pre trip rapture
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: in the works that have not been translated into English.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: And then when it comes to Efraim the Syrian, who's
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: in the fourth century, I bring out ten crystal clear
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: pre trib rapture passages that plainly state that the church
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: is going to be kept from the Great Tribulation. The
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: language is so clear that you basically have to poke
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: your eyes out to deny it.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: So in addition, the let's just say that some people
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: again playing Devil's atica, that's good. Well, that's a that's
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: a reference not to all seven years, it's only a
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: reference to the Great tribulation the last three and a
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: half years. Would that really even matter too much because
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: it still shows it annihilates a post trib rapture, And.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it does it basically, it would essentially, because
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: if you're going to go down that road, a lot
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: of some of the early fathers didn't hold a seven
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: year tribulation at the end of the age. They held
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: the three and a half year tribulation at the end
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: of the age. So it's still a literal pre trip rapture.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: So that's that's the important thing here, is that when
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: you look at the hatred going out there, what we
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: see often sadly is that most people that argue against
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: the spensationalism don't fully understand it. They don't understand the distinctions,
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: they don't understand the limits. And we've just spent the
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: last forty minutes looking at almost all, almost all of
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: the major distinctions individually, isolating them out, showing that they
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: existed prior to Arby.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: I would like to add one closing thought here, and
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: that's that you know, people get frustrated, Why is God
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: going to go back to the Jews? They rejected the
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: Lord and he's moved on. This is exactly the point.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: God is a god of second chances, he said, Israeli's side, temporarily,
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: not permanently. He's the God of second chances. He's going
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: to give Israel a second chance to receive their Messiah,
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: to receive the New Come nationally.
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: Nationally.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And so this is this is a tremendous blessing.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: If God can give recalcitrant, impenitent, backsliding apostate is a
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: second chance that we can rest assured He's going to
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: give any human being on planet Earth a second chance.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is where you go to Romans eleven
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: and no doubt. Paul talks about the doctrine of election,
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: not even he's talking to a variety of things, but
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: specifically says, well that the doctor and election would stand.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: He says, but you know what, Hey, the elect received it.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: So in this sense, Paul was part of the elect right,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: he received it, and he said, and the rest were blinded.
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: But Paul goes on to say, I think there's something
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: to say that God is not going to allow the Jews,
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: to the national Jews, to end on such a sour note,
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: because it's kind of an affront against him, even though
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: they're a fault.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: It's not he's not a fault.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: But he's like, no, I'm going to I'm going to
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: succeed and I'm going to win.
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: I'm going to vindicate my name.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: And this is why in Romans eleven, Paul makes the comment,
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: as we know, the gifts and the calling of God
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: are irrevocable, and he says all Israel will be saved
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: and he'll remove on godliness from ungodliness from Jacob Right
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: Roman's Element twenty sixth. But in addition, he says, hey,
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: have they stumbled so much that they have fallen out?
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: And he says no.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: He goes, look if through their falling, their stumble, all
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: this amazing glory has come to the Gentiles, how much
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: more their restoration? And he says, that's going to be
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: what we've seen in the Gospel going to the whole world,
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: and we're being recipients of it based on their failure,
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: the Jews tripping. They didn't fall completely out of off
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: the stage. They tripped, and of course some Jews got saved.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: Paul says, they're in restoration, which could only be national
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: because if there wasn't a future restoration nationally, you'd say, well,
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: Jew Paul got saved.
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: Big deal.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: It's a national restoration. And if that happens, He says,
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: what that's gonna be riches to the world. This comes
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: back to riches when during the millennial period.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: That's right. Final thought, I like to say, if you
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: thought Pentecost one point zero was amazing, wait till you
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: see Pentecost two point.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: Zer amen bro Well, it couldn't have been a better
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: person to talk with about this topic than you, Lee,
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: And so thanks.
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: Everybody for listening.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: Today. We've got to run, but this I hope you
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: come back to this because you're gonna This is not
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: going away. They are gonna be those that will attack.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: What we just say is a straightforward plane reading of
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: scripture which leads to these topics. They did not start
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: in eighteen thirty with Darby. No matter how many times
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: we have to say it, it's mainly just straw man attacks,
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: which we know is fallacious reasoning. So thanks for listening
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: and we will catch you next time.