Latest / True Crime and Wine Time / S5E P21 - The Man Who Vanished After Killing His Family_ The John List Nightmare Episode 2

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S5E P21 - The Man Who Vanished After Killing His Family_ The John List Nightmare Episode 2 · True Crime and Wine Time

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Oh look there we are.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Hello one, Hello, Hello, Hello, look at that kid.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: We're here on a Thursday. I'm excited. I'm excited. Hello everyone,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: and welcome to another episode of True Crime and Wine Time,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: where we dive into the most jaw dropping true crime stories.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Well sipping something smooth to take the edge off. So,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: you guys, let's pour our glasses, lock your doors, and
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: let's uncork the truth behind some of the darkest of crimes.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: And oh boy, is this one of those that's really
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: I'm sure it is, Yes, it is. Well, you guys,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, Lama. You're probably familiar with me now,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: and The Lovely Terry True Crime is out for the
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: next few weeks, so I'm bringing on some fabulous guest
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: co host tonight. I have the Lovely Lady and Gray
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: with me again.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Yes, hi, oh y'all. I have had such a pleasant
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: time in the past couple of weeks. So despite this
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: difficult topic, I had to return to finish this disturbing
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: case because it took decades to reach resolution. The story
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: has been fascinating yet difficult to cover.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it has. It makes me very angry. It
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: makes you very angry too, Yes, maybe mad. It's between
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: I think everyone is just like Lama. Can you please
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: stop picking out these cases?
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Please rough?
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: This one was rough, but you guys before we begin.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: If you're watching us on YouTube, please hit the like
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  Speaker 1: leave a rating and a review or download as it
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: helps our little podcast noticed. All right, leading Gray, why
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: don't you tell us what we will be covering tonight.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: I'll be glad to tonight. We'll be covering part two
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: of the story of John List, who was a devout
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: Lutheran father and lived with his beautiful family and mother
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: in a quiet New Jersey mansion. That is, until he
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: murdered them all. It would take eighteen years. A Clay
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Bust in an episode of America's Most wanted to finally
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: unmask the man who thought he could outsmart time and
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: get and get some long awaited justice. This is the
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: story of Faith control and one of the most cold
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: blooded family annihilators in American history.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: Agreed, and I'm sure I will have just as many
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: rants tonight as I did last week. I'm sure Terry
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: has rubbed off on me so much, so it'll be
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: in spirit of Terry. I'll make sure to have all
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: my rants. But before we get into that leading gray,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: what are you drinking tonight?
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Well? I plan to have my normal tonic water with lime,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: and I was going to add a splash of Canton Mcalbert,
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: but I don't have any crystal crystal light. So I
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: was gonna add this, oh to my tonic water. Okay,
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: that's Sonic Cheerry Limy flavoring, but you can. You can
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: get this up. I got it at Walmart, I think,
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: But instead I went Sonic and got the real thing.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: So I got my rock forty four Cheerry limaylorious ice
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: from Sonic.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Is it like a slushy? Is that what?
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: Oh? No, it's got that bullet eyes.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: Oh okay.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: Don't you have Sonic up there in Ohio where you live?
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: We do, yeah, but I've never I've never been to one,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: now that I think about it.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: I also have a pretzel for later when we don't
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: watch Big Brothers.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: So pretzel. We love snacks. Well tonight, you guys, I
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: got a bottle of Barefoot moscato tonight. Nothing fancy, but
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: does the job for the price. And that's what both
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: feet picked up for me. No peach wine, like you
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: said he would earlier, jerk, I should fire him already.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Well no, he brings you those V eight things and
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: they look pretty taste.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: That's true. Peach mango. I know you've been talking about
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: get them, but it's the peach mango. That orange pineapple
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: is good, but it has a bit of a there's
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: tea in it. That's where the coping from. And it
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: does have a hint of the tea and the aftertaste,
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: and I do not like tea. The other one that
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: the peach mango does not, so it was just fruit.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: That one, well, no, it has tea in it as
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: well as you just can't taste the aftertaste, isn't.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't, you don't.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: I'm going to try those this weekend. I'm gonna get
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: some of those and try that.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know if the tea is very prominent, but
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: again I don't like it, so other people may not
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: even notice that.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: I don't like tea, so that probably won't hurt me.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's get into Okay.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: When we left John emil List, he had just murdered
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: his entire family, his wife, three children, and his mother,
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: and left town for a new life with a zero
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: balanced ledger. He was free of his obligations and all
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: concerns for his family. He told himself their souls were safe,
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: he had seen to that, and he would join them
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: later on. He was sure God would forgive him of
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: his grievous sin, and if he repented and lived a
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: pass life from this moment on, he would be forgiven completely.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: Sure he would see them again one day, That's what
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: he told himself.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: After cutting himself out of all the family photos, he
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: took the scraps of himself as well as this passport
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: and burned them and his weber grilled to prevent officials
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: from having a recent photograph for their wanted posters list.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: After leaving the family car in long term parking at
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: the airport, took trains and buses in a non direct
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: path westward, even traveling back through his home state of Michigan,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: using cash and fake names to buy tickets he wanted
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: to get as far as he could and had considered
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: a few different cities. Ugh, hmm, I had a stupid face.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: I know, he's just like punchable.
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: In the.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Immediately after the murders, officials believed that List would turn
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: himself in. The List himself was sure he would be
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: caught within a week or two. Both would be incorrect. Well,
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: they thought he would turn himself. Who turns themselves in?
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: After that?
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: Like? How often did that occur during this timeframe where
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: they're like, yeah, that's probably what's gonna happen. They just
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: turned themselves in after murdering their own family, you know,
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: I mean back then and the time we're talking about,
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: you could literally move like thirty fifty miles away and
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: start a whole new life.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: Nobody would know.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: But I don't think. I don't know. I don't know.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: Unless they thought his money would run out because he
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: didn't really have that much.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: You know, Well, you know he's a broke bitch. We
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: know that. Yeah, we know a basic one.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and well his pastor sent out a message
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: begging his lost congrement to contact him. No one expected
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: that search for John emil Les mess Burger would last
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: nearly eighteen years. I don't even think John Liss thought
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: that eighteen eight years ago.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: Right away, police wondered how a family could be missing
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: for an entire month without the school or church sending
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: anyone to investigate. It turns out that some people had
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: rung the doorbell fight getting no answer, they just left.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: The only person who had cared enough to push it
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: further had been the drama coach. We won't stay on
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: him too long. He's kind of weird.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: No.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: He had asked a friend on the force to investigate
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: much earlier, but lacking evidence of something amiss, had been
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: unable to get any action.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: Investigators came up with one hundred and fifty pieces of
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: evidence from the crime scene in preparation for the prosecution
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: of the killer. Since his passport was missing, they suspected
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: he might have left the country. Even so, a dozen
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: officers guns ready kept watching the funeral service in burial side.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Alma was flown to Michigan, but the other four were
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: buried side by side in cheap metal caskets. Since there
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: was no money to give them a better funeral. Helen's
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: mother and sister insisted on burial, contrary to what List
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: had specified in his letters. List did not show up.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: I don't understand why they're in cheap metal casket, Like,
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: was money not raised or services donated in the wake
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: of a truly, truly horrific and tragic situation?
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean the times nowadays, somebody would do a
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: go fund me and it'd be.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: They lived in a rich people neighborhood.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: Okay, I know, but back then people minded their own
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: business too, But that was one of the problems.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: You're right, You are right different times at different times.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: So the FBI published a wanted flyer with an older
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: photo of List and a physical description. This is one
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: of my favorite parts of this whole freaking story. You
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: guys ready for this? Yeah, they also learned that he
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: suffered from severe hemorrhoids and was badly near sighted.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: That is not surprising, is it.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: No, No, I find them. I find the selling of
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: him having severe hemorrhoids hilarious because, I mean, no one
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: is looking at this guy's butt, like, why is this
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: the information you're putting out? And I think it was
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: just to humiliate him, and I applaud because it has
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: stood for decades. We're still talking about it, we're still
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: talking about its severe hemorrhoids. So the flyers were sent
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: to pharmacies and eye doctors all over the country, but
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: they refrained from sending flyers to the Lutheran Church, which
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: I don't know why.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: They didn't think of that. I mean, he's so religious,
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: it's crazy. But so they searched through list file and
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: discovered that he had rented a private post.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: Office box a PO box for the kiddos to receive pornography.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, yeah, yeah, the pious man did have a
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: vice other than then murder. I'm just gonna say this,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: aren't you kind of curious though, like what his pun was.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, come on, oh, hello, Anthony Christopher. I hope
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: you're doing well. Saw the big announcement the other day.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: Good for you.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: Anyway, I want to sell the details because I think
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: Terry uh will want to deliver some of that news
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: when she gets back.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: But I love seeing you. I hope you're doing great.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: All right, So back to the story, John List had
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: simply vanished poof gone. No hemorrhots are being talked about,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: nobody knows where he is.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: Nine months after the murders, on August thirtieth, nineteen seventy two,
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: breeze Noel burned it down. Now, numerous kids had been
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: out of the notorious abandoned house, but its destruction was
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: not due to their cattle seances, because of course they
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: had salances in that house. The cause of the fire
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: proved to be the work of an arsonist, a crime
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: that also went unsolved.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Well, this makes me very sad because it was historic
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: and gorgeous, and I have a thing for those. It
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: makes you so sad it's not very anymore.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: One thing I didn't see, though, was that it had
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: become like a tour on a tour, you know, people
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: will drive by and look at it. So I wonder
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: if the neighbors didn't get tired of that and said
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: let's get rid of their house. I don't know, but anyway,
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: a new house was built on the property several years later,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: and despite it being a new home with new homeowners,
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: the residents of Westfield called it the list House.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Oh that's what it looks like now. I mean, that's nice,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: but a nice place.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: I like the other one better, to be honest, But
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: what are you gonna do? Yes, Michael, you are listening
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: to the Lovely Lady and Greg who's off also one
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: of our mods if you guys don't know, But she's
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: a mod, she's a researcher, she's a rider. Now she's
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: a guess co host. So I love that. Ye Now
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: John was not. I'm sorry. John was now a man
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: on the run and he wanted to live his new life.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: He of course grew a mustache because disguises, and wore
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: a hat low on his head to hide his features.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: M the good old mustache trick. Gonna confuse everybody with
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: that he trade? Maybe it was for the porn.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: Y?
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Oh is that an ed hardy? Had he would? He would?
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: So he traded in his suit and tie for more
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: casual clothes. He began to look for a new place
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: to call home and researched several different cities in the West.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: I love this part. Phoenix was considered, but he dismissed
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: it as too hot. No lives detected there. I would
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: think it was too hot too. San Francisco was also considered,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: but he dismissed that lovely city due to too many hippies.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: It's damn hippiest because, of course there were too many
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: hippies for John Lynz right, so he settled on Denver, Colorado.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, Denver is gorgeous, so he did pick a
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: good spot. I love Colorado, it's so beautiful. So he
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: knew he had to lay low, so he rented a
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: room under his assumed name of Robert P. Clark Boring,
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: and then went to a local Social Security Administration office.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: He walked in off the street, claimed he had lost
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: his card and needed a new one. He completed a
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: piece of PA paper, signed his name, and a few
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: minutes later he was presented with his new card. The
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: simpler times, don't even get me started on that process,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: because it has been vane lately.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: So life in nineteen seventy one, We're getting a new
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: ID was as simple as that. Why without twenty four
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: to seven news coverage, CCTV cameras on every street corner,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: and technology tracing every step he took made it much
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: easier to disappear than it would be today. Not to mention,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: he didn't have to contend with true client crime sleuths
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: salothing all day every day as we are wont to do.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: Like us, because we're nosy, we will find you. John
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: emil List went into that office and Robert P. Clark emerged.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Bob Clark took a job as a line cook at
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: the Holiday Inn. Yes, yes, you heard correctly. A line
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: cook is exactly what he should have done before he
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: murdered his family. He took an unglamorous job to pay
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: the bills. It wasn't that hard, was it. John.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Look at that nice pool there though, he use that pool.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: So he laid low. He didn't spend a lot of money,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: nor did he make friends. He paid cash for a trailer. Also,
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: for the first time in his life, he did not
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: attend church. He felt it too risky. As his Lutheran
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: face was well known in Westfield, New Jersey. He had
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: a pretty low key life for a few years.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: Now we need him to take a quick break because
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: this has to be mentioned, not because it is credible,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: but because it is funny as hell. So in nineteen
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: seventy two lists, remember he's on this wanted list list list.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: I can't believe I just signed it anyway, So he
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: was also proposed as a suspect in the dB Cooper
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: air piracy case. Because of the timing of the murders
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: and his disappearance, which was two weeks prior to the
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: air lane. Jack came because this is wild.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Though. Now, if you don't know who dB Cooper is,
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: because well you are young, here is a brief synopsis.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy one, a man using the name Dan
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Cooper hijacked plane, demanded two hundred thousand dollars ransom and parachutes,
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: then jumped from the aircraft moonflight over Washington State, vanishing
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: without a trace. Part of the ransom was found in
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty, but the rest and Cooper himself were never
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: seen again. The FBI closed the case in twenty sixteen.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: But it's still kind of wild, so a rabbit trail
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: search might be worth your while later.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, it is a fun crazy like that doesn't
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: look like Lisz really, I don't know, so, No, I
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: don't think so. A few reasons for the suspicions were
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: multiple matches to the hijackers description and the reasoning by
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: law enforcement officials that a fugitive accused of mass murder
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: has nothing to lose. Well true, yes, but.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Well after his capture, Liz was questioned about this, but
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: he denied any involvement in the Cooper case. His name
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: is still occasionally mentioned in Cooper articles and documentaries. There
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: was no direct evidence to implicate him. The FBI no
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: longer considers him a suspect, but sure he had nothing
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: to lose. But John Lisz jumped out of an airplane.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Come on, I mean, that is a wild I did
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: not know until this story that those events were only
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: two weeks apart.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: I didn't realize either wild news cycle.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: That must have been for the people in the seventies,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: like what yeah, what is happening? Fascinating on both of
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: those Well, Eventually, surprisingly, he began to make friends. He
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: shaved off his secret mustache and helped prepare tax returns.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: Several years later, he went back to full time accounting,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: and by nineteen seventy six he decided he was ready
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: to go back to church, and he joined Saint Paul
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: Lutheran Church in Denver.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: That's a pretty church, It's very pretty. The following year,
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: he acquired a driver's license again nineteen seventy two seventy three.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: It's easy to get, and bought a car he used
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: to drive old in a firm members of his church
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: places is that?
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: Did he has a car? Did he have an orange beetle?
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know, cap'n did that? So what do you think?
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: Oh, oh, we know beatles in the seventies of people
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: who kill is not great.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: Actually, actually had a friend in college who had one
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: of those weeks. Now that I'll look at it, it's
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: like maybe I'm he was a little creepy, was he?
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Because yep, yep, yep. He then became part of the
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: church's finance council because of course he did as he
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: realized he would not be caught. He grew into his
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: new life, and he now decided he was ready to
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: start dating.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Oh God, could you imagine Dolores. Dolores was thirty five
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: years old and described as reserved, a bit indecisive, and
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: a bit of a worrier, so she was perfect for
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: John List. They met at a Lutheran gathering for singles
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy seven. They actually kind of look a leg.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Oh Bill, get that out of my head, all right?
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Sorry to If you wind YouTube, I can see the
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: Sledge show. So they actually dated for eight years before
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: they married in nineteen eighty five, and then John as
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: Bob Clark, moved into her condo in Aurora, Colorado. Their
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: next door neighbor was none other than Wanda Flannery. Then
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: neighbor who would ultimately bring an end to John list
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: double life. Yeah, Wada, there's a Wanda with their cat.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Look at that cat, A cat I knew.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: I liked to Wanda. The Lords and Wanda were described
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: as best friends, always at one or the other's home,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: having coffee, chearing gossip. Wanda was described as fun and
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: a bit of the grandmother everyone would love to have.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: For some reason, I see a mix of Lucy and
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Ethel were still Magnolia's here with these two. John's soon
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: found out though, that even if he could temper out
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: run his past and the things he had done, he
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: could never outrun himself.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: No, no, Surely, after his marriage, List was fired surprise
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: from a job for failing to keep up with company changes,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: and also was asked to leave his posts as a
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Sunday school teacher because he was too strict and demanding
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: of the students. What no surprise, Okay. His attempts to
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: become an independent financial consultant also failed. It seems that
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: his former life was repeating himself. It turns out John,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: you're the problem. You are the problem problem.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. He had a difficult time finding work in a
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: poor economy at his kliend age of fifty five, and
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Delores began to regret twining her life to his, imagine
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: that she grew continued us and spoke of leaving him
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: as long as Liszt sat alone each day at home.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: After an unsuccessful outing, his neighbor Wanda Flannery, got to
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: know him pretty well, and it would not be long
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: before he regretted allowing her into his life.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: A series of bad things happened in the life of
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: List and his second wife. He was once again unemployed
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: and unemployable. Their neighborhood deteriorated and property declined in value,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: and their dog was Sadness was beaten to death outside
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: their gate.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: Now, I don't want that.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: I don't like that either. I was going to ask
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: more questions and I was like, no, you know what, No,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: I don't. I don't need to. I'll live blissfully aware
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: that please and thank you. But anyway, something had to
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: change now.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: Wanda Flannery had a particular hobby that ultimately to the
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: end of his running. She liked to buy tabloids. They
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: came home each week with several of them to entertain herself.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: I want to be bussies with Wanda so.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Much tabloids are a lot of fun back there.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Now you just have the Internet, which is really just tabloids.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: It really is.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: But I remember being little seeing those while they were
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: check out at the grower, and that one that one,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: and my mom would be like, those things aren't true.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: Don't read those. It's not even true stuff. They're just
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: making making news, so people buy them. And now here
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: we are internet are will people just believe anything they
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: see on the Internet. Will She was ahead of her time,
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: wasn't you? But yeah. In February nineteen eighty seven, she
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: looked through an issue of World Weekly News and spotted
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: an article about a man, John List, who had murdered
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: his entire family.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: That boy.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Many years earlier and hand gotten way.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: I asked the boy just real quick with the tabloids.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it's still on HBO match, but
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: there's a documentary about the National Inquirer. I believe it is,
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: and it's fascinating. I recommend everybody go watch it. It
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: was very, very, very interesting, and I watched weird documentaries
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: all the time, but that was my my faith anyway.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: So it stuck out to Wanda that the photo of
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: this killer looked remarkably like her neighbor Bob Clark.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Even their odd habits were the same. She glanced up from.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: The newspaper to see her neighbor out on the porch
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: and fell at once that she was looking at the
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: man who had committed the perfect murder. I don't, I don't.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know how it's a perfect murder when they
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: know who did it. But okay, yeah, She read the
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: article through again and wondered to herself about the possibilities.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Like List, Clark usually wore a code and tie both
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: and both were religious men who taught Sunday school. Hmmm.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Then she read the ipiot description of the scar that
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: List had behind his right ear through a mastoid ity.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: Bob Clark has just the same scar. He was an
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: accountantuck List and from Michigan. Both had chronic money problems,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: had travel holding jobs, and seemed to overspend.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: Hmmm, so maybe all the financial problems weren't all because
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: of Helena after all. Oh, look, before we move on,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: look who it is. It's the lovely Terry issue crime.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Hey babes, Harry, I hope you're doing good. We're not
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: burning the channel down.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: So yeah, keep it safe for you glad to see it, Babs,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: I too detect a pattern here. He just yeah. Bob
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: also looked several years older than Eh claimed, just old
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: enough to be John List.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: So Wanda wondered if she should tell Dolores about her suspicions.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's a tough choice. I mean, surely Dolores
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: knew more about the man's background and could assure her
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: that Clark was legitimate. So she took the paper over
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: to Dolores's house when John had left for a temporary job.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: He had somehow managed to find he probably just at
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: the train station, and showed it to her. She urged Dolores,
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: who was mystified, to show it to Bob and see
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: how he reacted.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Delores said she would, but then tossed the paper out,
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: so Wanda said nothing further. Then Bob found a job
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: in Richmond, Virginia, and he knew packed up and moved
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: to the East. Wanda remained uneasy. I don't know how
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: you go to your bestie and be like, oh, by
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: the way, Tolores, I'm pretty sure her husband for the
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: last fifteen whatever years, killed his whole family and is
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: one of the most wanted men in America and then
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: be like, yeah, you should show him this and see
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: what happens. Wanda, girl, what, how do you think that
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: was a good plane?
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Just could you imagine?
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: I guess Wanda thought, you know, if Nick be she
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: could take him, even came after her. I don't know,
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: it's hard.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: That was all crazy. Yeah, Well, while looking for a
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: job what he spent most of his life doing. It
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: sounds like to me he found himself in Virginia interviewing
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: for jobs doing tax returns, and was ultimately hired by
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: a downtown Richmond firm thirty six years after he had
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: met his first wife in the state while he was
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: still in the army. Ooh, it's never a good idea
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: to probably go back, but we'll see what happens. It
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: was sixteen years since the murders, sixteen years, and now
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: he was back East. John was sixty two, but told
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: everyone that he was fifty six. Okay, So I was.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Just looking at that office building. It looks like a
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: save in new office building, doesn't it.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Of course, you don't know.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: That's going to say, you don't even know what that
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: looks like. I just don't know how he keeps losing
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: all these tax jobs, Like, how can you keep getting
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: fired from these? I don't understand.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: I know you have experienced, but like, I just don't
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: get it.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think it was his work. I think
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: it was his I meant, don't have to be you know,
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: you don't have to be like a salesman's boisterous and all,
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: but you know you got to be to talk to people.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: It's a little bit. You do have clients. Okay, true,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: you do have clients, So it's trip. So John was
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: of course a commergion. Commergion at work. I even wrote
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: that word in and I can't even say it.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: Curmudgeon, curmudgeon, thank you with the assistance. Yeah, work.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: Easily made grumpy. I can't figure that out. He didn't
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: seem the type it all to get grunty about nothing.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: He refused to carpool with his coworkers, and he was
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: insist when the paper towels ran out in the bathrooms.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: He expressed his displeasure to all, but since he was
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: a low level employee at the firmer only could do
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: was complain. Here's the thing, John, take your own paper
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: towels to work. I'm even sell them for a dollar apiece.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: You know, make some money that he's not gonna do it.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: So he had run in a room when he first
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: moved to Virginia, and then soon Dolores joined him. That's
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: a nice house, Oh, that is it is. It is
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: very cute. Now they didn't have a lot of money,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: but they soon found a home an unincorporated mid Lothian
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: m sorry whoever lives there outside of Richmond. It was
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: an unensuming ranch on a call to stacked in a
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: planned community called brander Mill. Again, I don't know how
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: these people don't have any money at their age, like
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: I just.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: I know at their age. Yeah, I don't either. They
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: should have I know.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: It was a tough time.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Right, but he didn't have a marketable skill. He just
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: couldn't market it's, you know, yeah. Reverend Joseph Vote described
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: the couple as shah and somewhat retiring, not extroverted, but
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: seemed devoted to each other. They attended church every week,
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: and Bob especially seemed to take his faith seriously. He
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: had also told the reverend that he had taught Sunday
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: school when he lived in New Jersey. It appears by
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: this time John living his ball wasn't trying to hide
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: his past life in New Jersey, right, Why would you
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: say that nobody knows?
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: Oh well, he's not the smartest now. Jerome Kendall, another
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: friend in Virginia, said, nothing stood out about Bob Clark.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Oh there's your bro, not at all what I thought.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Jerome was gonna okay, and.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Looking at that, all that crazy hair and the beard,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: all right he was.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: He described him as brown, and my immediate thought was, oh, brown,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: because John's a piece of shit. But no, no, apparently
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: that's not what that means. Kendall said, if Bob Clark
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: wore a brown suit and was in a brown paneled room,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: he might fade into the background. Though I'm sure Kendall
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: would agree with me on the piece of ship.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Hard I do, but you do? Oh look at that.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: He also got the impression that Bob and Dolores preferred
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: to keep to themselves. He also mentioned that on occasion,
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: the man he knew as Bob Clark seemed a bit
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: nervous and looked over his shoulder frequently. Still, for many years,
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: John List, living as Bob Clark, and his second wife, Dolores,
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: continued on with their simple and private lives in peace.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: Just moving on with the life. Meanwhile, back in New Jersey,
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: all this time has been going on. Detective Jeffrey Paul
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: Himmel had worked the case hard for years. In finally
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five, he turned to the extreme of talking
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: with a sackic I'm not going to go there except
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: to say it was a desperate move for a desperate
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: man who had followed every lead, sent out numerous aged
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: photos of John List, and felt he had nothing to lose.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: The crimes were fourteen years old and the case was cold.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: The psycha gave him no information that led to anything.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Surprise. You know how confident this man is.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Look at that picture.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: What he's wearing, a striped suit with a polka dot tie.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: I lot the tie too. I think we know that.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: Part isn't probably o natural, But look at himself. He
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: looks very serreous. Oh yeah, but.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: That striped suit and polka dot tie is up to things. Yeah, anyway. So,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: for example, this is what the psychic person had to say.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: She said, John List didn't fly sorry DP Cooper enthusiast,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: but he traveled a rossland when he fled, and that
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: he was most likely in the southwest. Now this sounds
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: spot on, but I'm a cynic and I see this
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: as just good guess work based on information the detective
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: provided her from the case. I mean also, if you
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: want to get far away, where do you go? You
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: go west? So she added that List might also return
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: to the cemetery on birthdays. So Hummel actually staked out
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: the cemetery on John's sixtieth birthday, as well as the
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: birthdays of his children. Of course, pos John List didn't
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: show up because he wasn't feeling any guilt or remorse.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: The case was soon transferred from Hummel to Captain Frank Marinka.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: This doesn't seem to have anything to do with the soak,
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: But are I know? I like this guy. He's got
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: that Stephen Queen thing going there, doesn't he? But it
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: was just a transfer of a normal cold case and
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: needing fresh eyes. The Crown was now nearly two decades
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: old with little hope of being solved. Marinka was not
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: as willing to give up on it as one of
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Flannery had been. Something new was on the horizon and
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: he wanted to take advantage. And he is that car.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Car's pretty awesome.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: He is the bullet he looks kind of he's got
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: a Stephen the Queen thing going. And also I see
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: like James Rockford for some odd reason from Rocker.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Johnson and the shoes.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Must be I don't know.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Well, we don't want to spend a lot of time
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: talking about John Walsh. I mean, I could bitterly talk
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: about him for hours, so I'm going to refrain because
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: he would absolutely be multiple episodes series of his own
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: and we all got time for that. Okay.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: John Walsh isn't icon in the true crime world, but
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: he got his role in the most devastating way.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: Now, please research this man. Leader. I promise you won't
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: be sorry if you don't know who he was, because
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: you haven't.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Been around as long as some of us. Some of us,
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: but John Walsh is amazing and fantastic. After the tragic
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: abduction and murder of his own son in nineteen eighty one,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: as Adam Walsh became a fierce advocate for missing children.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: He used the platform he was given a TV movie
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: about his son's case to publicize other missing children's photos,
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: leading to thirty seven missing children being located from a
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: movie a television movie. With this success, he realized the
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: power of using the media as his battlefield, and luckily
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: a Fox executive agreed. Oh I guess you guys, if
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: you're don't know the story of his son, I know
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: I would never be able to tell that Story's awful.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: It's awful.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: But let's talk about one of my two favorite shows
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: for my childhood.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: And they're both gonna be mentioned tonight. I think the
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: first one. Oh wait, it is the other one. Maybe anyway,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about this one. Maybe the other one doesn't
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: pop up all talk about at the end. So America's
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Most Wanted was a television show about serious crimes fugitives
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: that enlisted the aid of its viewers to help identify
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: potential suspects, and.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: That is John Walsh.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: They dramatized the crime and then provided what information they
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: could to assist those who might be living near someone
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: who is wanted for a crime. Each weekly segment soon
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: averaged about six thousand calls, which is amazing. This is
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: crazy Internet, you got Yeah, that's a all right. So
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: some of these tips led to arrest of nearly one
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: per broadcast. That's amazing statistics. That doesn't sound like a lot,
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: but it is. And in nineteen eighty eight, Westfield Captain
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Moranka decided to get his unsolved case on the air.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: I just realized, my other show's not going to be
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: talked about because it's not a mystery of what well.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: But you can mention it later. I will. However, the
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: List case was considered too old for Maria's most wanted
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: The television show initially turned it down. Then the executive producer,
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Michael Linder, was scheduled to speak at a law enforcement
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: conference in Delaware, so Captain Marinka in Detective Hami went
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: taking the List files with them. They approached Linder with
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: the case.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: Linder was originally hesitant because of the age of the crime.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: It had been, you know, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen years, but
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: they showed him the case file and crime scene photos.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: When he saw the photos of the children laid out
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: in what was obvious premeditation, he changed his mind. And
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: the show had also been under pressure from the FBI
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: to showcase older cases. I don't know want FBI is
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: pressuring them, but okay.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: At the time, John List was the FBI's third oldest
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: missing fugitive, and Linda thought this would be a great
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: test case for the show. So the more Lander thought
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: about it, the more he found it all around captivating
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: and ordered a segment on it. It seemed to the
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: tech detectives the last possible shot they had to ever
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: bring John lizz to justice, and all of the witnesses
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: were still and available.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: Which is that's a lot.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's kind of been heard of when things
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: go in solved long period of time. But you guys,
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: there was one problem. No one had a recent photo
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: of List that had been one of the most important
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: factors in other arrests.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: Right, they put up their little photo have you seen
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: this guy? And that usually helps, but he burned all
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: this photos so they didn't really have one. The one
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: they did have of John List was nineteen years old Linder. However,
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: new Freak Bender, a forensic sculptor and photographer in Philadelphia.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: Bender was able to use clay to reconstruct faces of
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: decomposed bodies, and he might be able to show what
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: List would look like many years later, so he agreed
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: to do a bust for the show. These are like
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: my favorite people evers, I don't know how they do it.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: They're just amazing.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: It's amazing, it's amazing in your computers.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: You guys, Yeah, this is all done with Clay's crazy.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: It's fascinating.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: And Bender was also called a conjurer in clay because
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: he could conjure the face in three D. I mean,
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: that's different, so much better than a photograph. And he
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: would be sent skulls of unidentified people, mostly children, and
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: he would recreate their heads to assist authorities in identifying them.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: In the list case, Bender had just th reeal photos
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: and needed to make a guy in his mid forties
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: into a sixty three year old man. And so he
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: did what creative people do. He got creative, and he
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: enlisted some expert help.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Bender worked with an anthropologist on the normal aging process,
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: on phone structure and skinfolds, and a criminal psychologist, Richard Walter,
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: on personality characteristics that might show up in his physical features.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: They figured that since Liszt had lived such a rigid life,
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: he would not have changed that much. Aside from being
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: pawnchier with dripping skin, he may have a pronounced, receding hairline,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: he would still have the scar behind his ear, and
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: he would still dress conservatively. Bender also included the horn
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: rim classes and the final touch of the clay bust
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: made by Bender. Was he turning down of the corners
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: of List's mouth, not of guilt or sadness, but out
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: of fear of getting caught, and also just because he's miserable.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: He's a miserable person. And I think that's actually fairly good.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: Some people don't think so. It's it's impressive for not
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: knowing anything.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: It's pretty good. It's creepy good, actually it really is. Yes.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: And I think that the formal clothing, you know, the time,
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: the suit, I think it makes it. I think that
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: was a big key for that well. The show aired
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: on May nineteen eighty nine. John Walls, program's host, introduced
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: the segment as New Jersey's most famous murder case. The
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: story ran for ten minutes to an estimate of twenty
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: two million viewers.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: That's wild.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: Twenty too many people at one time saw that bust.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: If Liz was out there, someone would have seen him, surely. Now.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: John List himself generally watched the program, ling the challenge
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: of figuring out the crimes.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: Go fucking figure yeah, figures now.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: However, that night, Hendeloris went to a church social, so
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: he missed the show, but back in New Jersey, Patty's
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: ballroom singing companion Susan Cousins was watching. She said, when
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: she saw the show, she was frozen in time as
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: a grieving sixteen year old.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: I bet, I bet Now back in Colorado, our homegirl,
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: Wanda Flannery was also watching with her daughter and son,
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: and it is creepy but amazing. So she had seen
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: the thing right, but to her, the bus did not
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: look like Robert Clark, her former neighbor. Nevertheless, though she
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: still felt that she had made the right connection, she
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: knew she had to act. If only to say to Lores,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: she had her son in law call the phone number
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: provided on the show and give them the clerk's new
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: address in Virginia. I probably would have made somebody else
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: call from here. I'd been like, oh if he when
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: we need you to call this number, Okay, I can't
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: do it, but I need you to do it for me.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: He said, yeah. For long day, stepping up girl. Our
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: three hundred calls came in about the list case that evening.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: Just that night, fielded by a FI agents now. Bernard
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: Tracy was a Westfield detective who was nineteen years old
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: when the murders happened, and he had worked on the
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: case at some point over the years, and he was
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: at the station when the tips came in, but he
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: missed that call, so it was sent onto the FBI
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: and then forwarded to the Richmond office.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: Isn't it a wild how that happens.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: I wonder if he'd got in the call, if he
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: would have done something that not. But it's still it's
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: still work out.
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: It's funny. I'm working on another story at the moment,
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: and there's similarities between that one and this one, and
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: I've been getting them a little confused because they both
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: involved these big shows and you know, calls, tips getting missed,
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: and it's just it's interesting. So anyway, two agents checked
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: out the leads that Thursday, June one, nineteen eighty nine.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: The Clerk address was first on the list, and agent
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: Kevin August approached the house and knocked on the door.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: He heard a vacuum being turned off and a woman
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: opened the door, Robert P. Clerk. He asked, he is
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: at work? Delores told them the.
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: Two agents asked to come in and speak with her. Obviously,
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: she didn't think they were the ice cream men in
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: the ice cream truck. She invited them in.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: I just got that.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: Sorry slow, I thought I missed it. Anyway, she invited
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: them in. She didn't line say she was her sister,
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: and they showed her the FBI flyer on john List.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: They asked if this could be her husband. She paled
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: noticeably and bean a tremble as she tried to read
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: the flyer. She admitted there was a resemblance, but denied
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: that this man could be her husband. She then began
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: to cry. She offered a wedding photo, and when they
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: looked at it, they knew there was no doubt this
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: was their man.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: He literally hadn't changed at all. No, he had all yes.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: Here and it's grayer, that's all.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: No.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: So they asked about the scar, where her husband was,
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: from what he did for a living, and it all
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: added up. One agent stayed behind and the other drove
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: off to Bob Clark's place of business, alerting to other
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: agents to meet him there. They entered the offices and
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: saw Bob Clark coming down the hall with the xerox
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: machine with papers in his hand, and guess what, he
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: didn't look surprised at all.
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: No.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: They identified themselves as if BI and asked for his identification,
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: asked him several identifying questions, which he answered affirmatively, and
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: then they asked if he was John emil LIUs. No,
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: he said without hesitation. His response was too quick, as
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: in practiced mentally for this moment. He showed no annoyance
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: or curiosity, which in itself is suspicious. What are you
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: talking about?
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: I do feel kind of bad for like his wife,
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: like Dolores, Like could you imagine like wait what.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: I know she would be like no, it looks like
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: but no, it can't be there, you know, Yeah, I
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: can feel sorry for her.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: They searched him for a weapon and then said your
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: John List, aren't you. He told them he was Robert Clark.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: Now red blotches broke out on his face, which we
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: talked about in the first episode. So August cuffed him
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: and told him he would have to come to their
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: office for fingerprinting, and he passively allowed them to do
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: whatever they needed to do, and he never even want
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: asked what he was charged with. And that's how you
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: know how you know, that's how you know that they
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: are that because they're not any one of us.
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: I'd be like, what the what what did I do? Yeah?
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Fighting it and yeah, he just went on wrong with him. Well,
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: fingerprints proved that List had finally been arrested for the
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: murders of five people, his own family. He requested a
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: court appointed a lawyer, which was denied. He was held
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: without bail. The Laurus arranged for a lawyer, David Peaball,
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: to compose a statement for the press. She repeatedly told
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: reporters and anyone else who would listen to her husband
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: was not John List and had not done these terrible things.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: Oh sweet sweet to Lauris.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: I know. I think there's just a mental block there
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: of not wanting to accept that reality.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: And I don't blame her.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: That's normal my opinion.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, how do you even wrap your het around
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: such a thing? You know?
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: Really? Oh there he is, look at that, But he
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: looks a lot like the bus. The glasses are the same,
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah they are. Like did you take his classes, off
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: of his faith, off that bust and put him on
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: this for this smuke shot?
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: I kind of wonder, wonder so Liszt pleaded not juty
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: and his veil was set at a million dollars.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: He wasn't going anywhere.
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: Anywhere, you know, Like this is nine that's a buttlad.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: It was bail, you know. So he was remanded into
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: state custody pending an extradition hearing to New Jersey. Surprisingly,
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: he agreed to be extradited, but insisted that he'd be
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: allowed to return to New Jersey as Bob Clark, even
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: though he had been unable to prove that he existed
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: as Robert Clark before nineteen seventy one. At the end
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: of June, he was in New Jersey again for the
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: first time since he fled in nineteen seventy one. He
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: was now eligible for a court appointed attorney, and Elijah
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: Miller was appointed. Look tall he is.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: He was tall?
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: He is tall. Yeah, I didn't realize that's all he was.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: Well. The guest defense attorney, Elijah Miller, pressed for a
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: change of venue and suppression of the confession letter. Remember
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: that was the five facilary he wrote to his pastor
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: eight seventy and half years ago. But in order to
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: do this he had to drop the insistence that the
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: state proved that he was in fact John List, not
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: Robert Peter Clark. Both requests to the court change the
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: venue and suppression of the letter were denied on top
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: excess that List looks like an Ostrich, and it's so true. Yeah,
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: not John List.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, John List looks like an Ostrich.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just look like.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: Animals sometimes and you feel like that's him. He would
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: put his hand head in the sand anyway. So in
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: his opening statement, Miller conceded that List had done what
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: he was accused of doing. On November ninth, nineteen seventy one,
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: his attorney presented that List had a fragmented, obsessive, compulsive
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: personality and was ill equipped a function in the face
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: of overwhelming difficulties. He had acted he believed for the
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: salvation of his family in a godless world that no
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: longer made sense to him. He's doing his job, all right.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: Court appointed attorney. All right.
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: We can only work with what they've got, which in
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: this case was nothing. Eleanor Clark, one of the prosecutors,
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: described him as cruel and calculating to the point of evil.
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: He wanted a new life, so he seemed closed the
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: accounts on the old woman and left it behind. He
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: had voluntarily committed the murders with full knowledge and with malice.
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: The face to Brand's ballistics reports, autopsies in his own
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: letters indubted him beyond shadow of a doubt. At the
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: same he's a happy woman. He's happy.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: They have the same hairstyle.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, they do anything.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, now. The defense entered information that Helen List had
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: been suffering from excuse me, syphilis acquired from her first husband,
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: John had found out about that in nineteen sixty nine,
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: after she has successfully hidden that from him for most
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: of their marriage. This piece of information failed to have
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: any mitigating effect. I don't know why it would, right,
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: this is Marvin.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: I'm just I was laughing about Marvin Taylor better husband.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: But it's a pretty low bar. That why it is
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: a low bar. Let's see. The prosecutor brought in a
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: psychiatrist who rebutted the Defensi's idea that List had a
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: character disorder. I don't know, I'm not sure I agree
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: with that, but a situational depression from midlife crisis. He
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: talked about how Liz believed that if he killed his family,
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: he was sending them to heaven, but he could not
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: kill himself because that meant he would go to hell.
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: He claimed that once he started killing, there was no
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: more control. Once he had fled, he put it behind him.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: And finally reached the point where he only thought about
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: what he had done on the anniversary of their deaths,
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: so he only had to think about him once a
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: year because they all died at the same time. Won't
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: this guy got this guy?
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: The trial on five counts of murder in the first
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: degree lasted seven days. That's not really not surprising because
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: he had already like admitted to all of it. So
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: I don't think they need a whole lot of witnesses.
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: Probably just place and those leaders and I see it.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: I mean it's still quick though. Seven days for this
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: kind of case is pretty sure.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: But probably not nineteen ninety. I was gonna say that
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: was My next thing was that on April twelfth.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: Ninety we didn't have like, well, I.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: Don't know, we did have groundbreaking new technology DNA. You
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: guys watched Forensic Files.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: They say that in every episode of for.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: All like two hundred episodes, round breaking new technology.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: Anyway, sorry guys. On April twelfth, nineteen ninety, List was
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: found guilty on all counts. Surprise.
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: This was less than one year after America's Most Wanted
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: episode had aired on May twenty first, nineteen eighty nine.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: He was given life in prison five consecutive terms, and
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: he would never be released.
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: Good John and the Lizard would be eternally synonymous with
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: concepts of selfishness, horror, and even He is a man
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: who could coldly, calculatingly and cunningly conceive and carry out
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: a cowardly plan to assassinate each of his three children that.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: Look at him like right there, he just seems angry
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: that this is happening to him.
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: I know, it's like, how dare you kind of you know,
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: I have it all worked out with God, so you
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: don't need to worry about this for something, and things
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: about me disgusting. I think that it's interesting where you
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: were talking about it being the trialing only last than
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: seven days. I think it's more fascinating that it took
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: less than a year after he was arrested, because well
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: nowadays it takes like three years. Now.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: He must not have waived a speed trial though that
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: I'll do it.
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: Well, that could be he may not have trying to
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: predict the next sea word. No, we're not going to okay.
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: We have talked several times during this two part series
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: about the letter that List had left for his pastor.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: This letter was basically his confession and used against him
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: a trial as evidence. After his conviction, he appealed his
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: verdict because everybody gets rit to do that study of
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: this letter being a confidential communication who his pastor should
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: not have been entered as evidence. He lost his appeal.
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: Here's a partial text of the letter John wrote his
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: pastor in New Jersey after he murdered every member of
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: his family.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: Right, are we ready? Guys? Are you prepared for a
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: bunch of Lana side eye? Because it's going to happen.
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: It's coming. It's gonna be a lot of eye rolls
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: inside eye. All right, dear Pastor Renwinkle, I am sorry
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: to add this additional burden to your work. He means
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: murdering his whole family.
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: I know that what has been done is wrong from
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: all that I have been taught, and that any reasons
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: that I might give will not make it right.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: But you are the one person that, while not condoning this,
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: will at least possibly understand why I felt that I
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: had to do this.
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: What suck.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: No one.
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: I wasn't earning anywhere near enough to support us. Everything
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: I tried seemed to fall to pieces true. We could
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: have gone bankrupt and maybe gone on welfare.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: No, but that.
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: Brings me to my next point. Obviously, knowing the type
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: of location one would have to live in, plus the
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: environment for the children, plus the effect on them knowing
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: they were on welfare was just more than I thought
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: they could and should endure. I know that they were
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: willing to cut back, but this involved a lot more
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: than that.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: Are you.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: Fucking hitting me? Yes, middle fingers all around this guy?
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: Oh no, Heaven forbid if you're poor or on welfare?
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: With pat being so determined to get into acting, I
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: was also fearful as to what that might do to
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: her continuing to be a Christian. I'm sure it wouldn't
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: have helped, Okay, all right? Sure? Number four. Also, with
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: Helen not going to church, I knew that this would
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: harm the children eventually in their attendants. I continue to
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: hope that she would begin to come to church soon,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: But when I mentioned it to her that mister Jewbell
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: wanted to pay her an elder's call, she just blew
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: up and said that she wanted her name taken off
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: the church rolls. Again, this could only have an adverse
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: result for the children's continued attendants. Okay, sure, sure, okay, sir,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: So that is the sum of it. If any of
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: these had been the condition, we might have pulled through.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: But this, oh, this was just too much. At least
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: I'm certain that all have gone to heaven now. If
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: things had gone on, who knows if this would be
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: the case. Of course, mother got involved because doing what
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: I did to my family would have been a tremendous
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: shock to her at this age. Well, their said I. Therefore,
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: knowing that she is a Christian, I felt it best
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: that she be relieved of the troubles of this world
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: that would have hit her. After it was all over,
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: I said some prayers for them all from the hymn book.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: That was the least I could do.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: What least?
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: Are you kidding me?
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: Now?
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: For the final arrangements, Helen and the children have all
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: agreed because I asked them at dinner before I killed
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: them that they would prefer to be cremated. Please see
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: to it that the cost her CAPSULEO. What a chief
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: escape this guy her mother. She has a plot at
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: the frankenmuf Church Cemetery. Please contact mister Herman schecklists. He
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: is married to a niece of mothers and knows what
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: arrangements are to be made. This fuck face. That is
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: the end of that letter. But the audacity of this man.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: It's so bad. I'm gonna said a prayer, so everything's
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: cool now time.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: It's the least I could do.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: Yes. List later stated he had also prayed, this is
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: over them while they're dead. He's lying them all up.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: Your family, father, upbraiding you. In the name of Jesus,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: our Savior, please take the family into your family home.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: They are also innocent in this matter, and he felt
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: that with the Lord prayer. Of course, John Liz continued
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: his letter with more lame justifications with regard to his
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: thoughts on his forgiveness, how others will no doubt think
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: what he did was horrific, but he didn't see any
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: other alternative.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: I mean the welfare come on that right there, forgetting
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: forget you know, Jesus loved the poor people. Yeah, you know,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: different things, I guess, but okay, well now Another interesting
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: thing is psychiatrist Stephen Simmring talked with John List for
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: hours after List's arrest. Doctor Simmring is board certified and
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: adult psychiatry with subspecialty certification in forensic psychiatry. He is
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: tested in hundred or testified in hundreds of civil and
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: criminal trials as an expert witness.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: Doctor Simmering said that in nineteen seventy one, John List
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: was so rigid in his thinking he only saw three
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: options for himself himself. One runaway that seems fine, okay.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: Two go bankrupt boom, No, you're not getting to heaven
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: if you're poor.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: Apparently. Three kill his family. That one that's the one
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: he went with. Apparently.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: So okay, I'm so glad that this doctor's name is
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: doctor Simmering and not doctor Lewis because I'm good to
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: done that one. I couldn't have done it.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: Oh boy, it would have been that would.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: Have been bad because this one sounds like he knows
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: what he's talking about. Uh. John rejected bankruptcy as he
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: considered it a sin. He rejected suicide because it was
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: the unpardonamal sin.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: Just just.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: What is it?
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: It's like number two? Right, that shall not kill? Or
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: is it one? I don't it's at the top, all right,
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: that one is?
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, that left his family. He knew this was
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: a sin, but he was convinced he can repent and
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: live a pious life and be forgiven. Now I'm no expert,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: but I have been to Sunday School and I have
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: taught it, so I know a little bit, a little bit.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: But I'm unsure why he thought he could be forgiven
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: the sin of murder but not the sin of bankruptcy.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: No.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, come on now, John, After all,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: to God, sin is sin. I mean, if bankruptcy is
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: a sin, it's no different than anything else can be
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: forgiven with the right you know, belief and following and everything.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: I mostly wonder, though, why he didn't consider coming clean
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: to his family, selling that house, getting into something more reasonable,
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: or at least take a second job, because that's what
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: normal people do, right.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, I live in this big ass mansion that
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: they can't even afford. They don't have, you can't still
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: get you could downside to what a four bedroom house
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: that's being too poor for you or something.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: Like.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: I just I don't even know what that even means
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: to them. Oh God.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: So.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: Doctor Simmring also said lists actions weren't a result of psychosis.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: They were not some sort of break in reality. I agree,
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: they were not. It's very obvious he described John List
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: as not a psychopath, but as having an obsessive compulsive
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: personality disorder, which is not the same as obsessive compulsive disorder.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: Those are two very different things. I just want to
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: establish there is a personality disorder and then there's another disorder,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: and those are two very very different things, because one
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: likes to clean and the other one likes to kill
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: or I don't know, but anyway, rather than have zero
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: care for others, which is a psychopathic trait, List had
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: a lack of normal empathy. Was how doctor Simmring described it.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: His personality would allow him to rationalize his actions until
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: he didn't feel strongly about them. As a result, his
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: ability to cartmentalize his life allowed him to move on
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: without guilt. Now I'm pretty good about compartmentalization, but I
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: couldn't do this. There's no way, There is no way.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: Wild.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: I know, it's just absolutely wild. He was able to
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: rationalize what could not be rationalized and justify what could
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: not be justified, and this was how he was able
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: to live his life by doing Texas by day and
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: reading historical books by night. Oh hello, Amy, have you
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: joined the show?
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: It is It's fine. You can join us.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: You won.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: That's fine, We would.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: Like for you to join us. Oh okay, But John List,
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: it seemed that once he was in prison, Oh yeah,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: that's right, he might be forgiven, forgotten get. In March
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: two thousand and two, television journalist Kan Chin interviewed John
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: List for ABC's evening magazine show Downtown. It was promoted
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: us the first time in thirty years that List had
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: spoken about the murder of his wife, three children, and mother.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: While that was true, List had been a fugitive for
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: almost eighteen of those years. He was sixty three when
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: he was captured in nineteen eighty nine with the help
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: of America's Must Want a Tip, So that made him
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: around seventy six years old when he sat for this interview.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: The way he shuffled into the room and slurred his
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: words as he responded to questions gave the impression that
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: he was much older. He lost most of his hair,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: and it appeared to have trouble with his teeth. Also
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: sound no pity, no pity, hare, no pity for me, not.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: Me either, Nope.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: Well, much of the program was a recounting of the crime.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: Liszt did speak about what he had done He described
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: shooting his wife as he came on her from behind
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: while she ate toast at the kitchen table. After he
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: dragged her body to the barroom and clean up the blood,
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: he sat down at that same table and head lunch.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: We do have a brief audio clip of his interview
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: with Connie Chung.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: Were you determined to kill.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 4: Them once I made the plan? Yeah, then it's just
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 4: like you going and you're there's no stopping them after
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 4: after you start.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: In two thousand and two, ABC's Connie Chung spoke with
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: John Listen, his first on camera interview about the murders.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: You ate lunch in the kitchen where you had shot
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: your wife in cold blood.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 4: That's correct.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: How could you?
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 4: I was hungry, just the way it was, you would
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 4: be too.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: Sucking guy, Yeah, it's just normal. I'm hungry. He claimed
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: also that he kissed his mother before shooting her, kind
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: of like Judas did Jesus. I really hate this guy,
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: but I don't believe he kissed his mother at all.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: I don't think so either either. So Doctor Simmring, who
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: had evaluated List while he was in prison, mentioned that
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: something was missing in him with regard to relationships and
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: that he was probably more angry at his family than
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: he'd ever admitted, because he can't be angry at himself. Right, No, no, no,
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: it's never his fault. Some of the murders had involved overkill,
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: although Liszt explained that overkilled to be the release of tension. Quote.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: After I'd completed my assignments and assignment, asked Chung, and
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: he said, well my self assignment. Who who says that?
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: John List, it's terrible? Asked why he had just not
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: killed himself when he saw dat mounting up. He explained
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: that suicide bording from heaven. Okay, we've heard him say
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: that before. He said he had a better tser going
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: to heaven if he murdered his family and then sought forgiveness.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: In fact, he fully expected not only to see all
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: of them again in heaven, but they would either have
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: forgiven him or would not know the tragedy had happened
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: at all. As he put it in his trial statement
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: to the judge, he suspected they would all get along
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: as before. I don't well, I would hope if it
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: was heaven they get along better than that.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: But you know it's a fair point. But also I know,
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: fuck this guy. Sorry you guys, says told you I
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: was kinda ran and drop a lot of f boss,
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: because this is one of the worst people, the worst.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: So even as Liz described himself, he referred to himself
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: in the third person as he rather than I, which
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: indicated that he distanced himself somewhat from who he was
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: and what he did. Yeah, also left out a significant
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: fact that he had once had a family and that
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: he had murdered them. Chung pointed this out, and he
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: shrugged it off.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: Hmm, this guy's kind of a stupid face.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: Oh there is again.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: There it is again.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's fine.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: Liszt expressed no real remorse or pain over to the
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: fact that his children had never even had a chance
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: to grow up and have their own families. About his
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: mother's murder, he said that he'd fulfilled his father's requests
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: that he'd take care of her and not let her suffer.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: Did you ever think of that, Jess Chung as if
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: there was another way to interpret the event. I was
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: that an old blooded murder for selfish reason? I mean,
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: did you ever think maybe I just said to do
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: take care of her, let her supper?
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: Can you believe that? Did you ever think of that?
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: Whoa sir? Okay, Now it was clear that he had
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: been planning the murders for oh wild. The family dinner
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: regarding the disposition of their remains proves this. He expected
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: his own children to say how they wanted their bodies
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: handled in the event they died. It's crazy, is.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: It any wonder Patty believed her father wanted to kill them. Nope, no, no,
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: it's totally believable. Well, he expected to be caught fairly
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: quickly after he left the grizzly scene. When that didn't happen,
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 2: he felt no responsibility to turn himself in. It was
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: up to the police to catch me, he said, I mean,
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: in fairness, yes, well I agree. I mean I kind
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: of get that thinking it's like, well, you know, they
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: must don't want me that bad or Heaven forbid. He
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: thought that, you know, God said it was okay, I'm
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: gonna let you away. Because I could see him thinking,
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: oh my God, yes, you know, God must want me
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: to get away with this or I'd be caught. I
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: could see him thinking that.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: Think about that. Yeah, you're probably totally right. He definitely, yeah,
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: definitely probably did. At one point, Yeah.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: He claimed to have seen the tilly end of the
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: America's Most Wanted episode that spelled the beginning of the
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: end of his days of freedom, although the authorities doubt
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: this due to his schedule. That specific night, He admitted
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: he started to sweat, but he figured he'd wait and see.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: He had already decided that he wouldn't run again. If
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: the police caught him, then it was over.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: It was clear that Chung thought her subject was cold
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: and somewhat inhuman, I mean look at him, yes, as
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: he spoke about what he had done to his family.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: This seemed amused and asked her if she'd ever had
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: a more grisly In her view, he was oddly content
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: in prison doing accounting work for the prison, but of
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: course he was probably the longest he ever held his job,
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: the longest stretch security here.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: But also what why are prisoners doing? You're accounting what
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: is happening? And he was living a structured daily routine.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: Given his rigid personality, he actually probably found it very comforting.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: He was probably just fine in there now. On March
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: twenty first, two thousand and eight, List died of complications
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: from pneumonia at the age of eighty two while still
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: in prison, m don't care. In reporting his death, the
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: New Jersey Star Ledger referred to him as the Boogeyman
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: of Westfield. Mm hmm.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: That picture, ladies. He second Salem, Sam says, finally a
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: coworking environment where he fits in. Yeah, he's just one
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: of the guys. He didn't have to impress anybody. Okay.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: Oh and if you're interested. John listrote his memoir while
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: in prison. It is entitled Collateral Damage, and it is
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: entirely self serving. Of course, he blames his entire lifetime
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: of troubles on the forty one days of combat. Forty
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: one days of combat he said for in World War Two,
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: claiming a diagnosis of PTSD was to blame. Sorry, John,
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: I'm not buying your story or your.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: Book, you know, and she buys all the books. It's true.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: I looked for a free PDF version. I'm not gonna
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: lie I did. I couldn't find it. So if anyone
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: has a FREEPDF version, they can email me Tara at
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: TWT Media dot com and we will happily read it altogether. Yeah,
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: it thumbs down, but I will totally read it. Would
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: money even go for his book, just to the publisher
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: I don't. Oh, that's a good question, because since he's
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: the worst. No, I think they got divorced, so probably not.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: Even Libby doesn't. It's not even on with Libby. Oh wow, Okay,
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: Well I'm saying a lot. Well, let's get to our
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: closing thoughts.
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 3: You guys.
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: I wrote nothing out for my closing thoughts because I
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: don't know what to say. I don't really know what
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: to say. There is one grip. We cover a lot
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: of crimes. I've been into true crime for well since
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: America's most Wanted and unsolved mysteries, Babysitters Club, the box
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: Car Children. Mysteries and crime have always been my thing,
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: but one group in particular. I have never been able
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: to understand our family Annihilators. I can't. I can't wrap
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: my head around the selfishness of that. I generally try
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: to with other crimes to see where where are these
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: people coming from? You know, how did they get to hear?
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: And unfortunately, with family annihilators, there is no nothing, There
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: is no good reason why not? Just why take out
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: the children and your whole family for what is usually
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: an ego driven reason. All right, you weren't living in
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: a box car, your family wasn't going to be living
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: in cardboard boxes. Oh no, you would have a four
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: bedroom Brady Bunch style fucking house in the suburbs. And
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: that's that's unacceptable for you. John List, like, get out
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: of here. This is guy. I hate this guy. This
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: is probably one of the worst, the worst guys I've
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: ever The coldness of it is beyond disturbing. And uh,
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: that's really all I have to I am glad he's
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: not in this world. I don't think he is where
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: he thought he was gonna be. If that's your bag,
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: that was his. And I don't think whatever it is
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: you believe is what's gonna It doesn't mean it's all
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: the same.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: But I don't think he's gonna I don't think that's
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: gonna work out how he died in the first place.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: And if you think of his justifications, none of it
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: makes any sense now, none of it.
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: Oh oh we we can't be poor, Oh no, we
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: can't be on welfare. Oh no, I can't put my
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: wife who's suffering from syphilis.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: Well, just one thing that got me about him with
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: her is that she was sick. She was basically bedridden.
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, obviously she could get around a little bit
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: because he didn't kill her in the kitchen, but I
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: mean she was homemound, if nothing else, and he still
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: thought she should be able to go to church every Sunday.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, no, it just didn't always work out
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: that way.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: I mean by then, like, if you don't know what
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: cephalis does your brain, it's not great.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: No, she was not by this point, I don't think
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: she was Helene. You know, she probably wasn't between that
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 2: and the drinking and the tranquilizers.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: You yeah, and then the children. The children seem like
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: very happy kids considering what they are dealing with. But anyway,
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: considering yeah, anyway, that's my rant. I don't like the
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: Stanley and Elands, and this guy is really one of
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: the worst ones.
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 2: He's one of the worst. Well, this story made me
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: really angry for several reasons. You've mentioned a couple of them,
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: but also it's really revolting when the cover crimes against
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: children in any form or fashion, but when it's their
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: parents are the doers of the event, it's abhorrent to me.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: And I'm it also grieves me when some jackwagon wagon
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: it's that face. How about that bastardizes religion to justify
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: they're crazy. Now they have really burns me up. I
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: have a lot of respect for people with strong convictions.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: I do so when a human piece of garbage like
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: John Liszt, who his thought his actions were some sort
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: of sick type of honor killings, that's the only thing
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: that can use to describe them, because that's what he
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: thought they were. In a way, he had to honor himself,
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: so they have whatever. It's just disgusted me because he
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: thought he had he was their savior as what he
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: was in my opinion, he thought I can save them.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: I can make sure they go to heaven if I
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: kill them right now where they have time to go back.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, I mean, you know, Patty, poor Patty,
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: the you know, wanting to be an actor or an actress.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: You know, that's not He's just not gonna let that
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: happened because that's like the devil incarnat or something in
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: his mind. But you know, faith is something meant to
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: bring people peace, comfort them when they grieve, and give
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: them strength during difficult times. If you don't feel that way,
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 2: I respect people who do feel that way, and I'm
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: not going to tell them they're wrong or they need
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: to give it up or whatever, ridicule them or or
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 2: try to turn it around on them like people will do.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: And then you have some loser like journalist come along
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: corrupted an attempt to justify what you can't justify. It
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: just makes me sick. This is terrible. I agree that
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: that posses me off so much as well when people
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: I'm not a very religious person, but like this.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, buddy, sure he just it was like.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like he thought because obviously he's
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: got an ego problem with his personality disorder that he
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: has to save everybody. It's up to him to make
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: sure they stay on this path. Forgetting that well, I mean,
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: if you read the Bible, God's all about free will,
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: don read it more.
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: Well, leading great, Thank you so much.
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: I'll get off that, I know. Right.
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: We've literally sat and talked about John List before forever,
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: like we will go on just ranting about him because
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: you think his garbage. If you guys don't know that
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: by now, Oh we do not like him, but you guys,
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: before we go, we're gonna wrap up. If you like
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: what you heard tonight, please be sure to follow all
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: of our socials and subscribe to our YouTube channel. It's free,
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: that's right, you don't want to do anything. Or if
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: you're listening to our pod, please download and give us
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: a rating or review, depending on which platform you're using.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: All of that helps our helps out tremendously in getting
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: our channel out there. Now, you guys, next week on
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: True Crime in one time, we will be covering the
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: Athens murders of nineteen eighty seven, when senseless crimes changed
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: the landscape of a southern college town and the subsequent
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: trial ended up changing the Georgia death penalty law. And
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: you guys, I have a guess com and it's gonna
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: be the Lovely Cabin. She'll be joining me next week,
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: next Thursday, eight pm Eastern when we cover this. And
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: I don't really know anything about this, so I am
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: very interested in at least I don't think I do.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's one of those that once I'm like, oh yeah,
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: I remember, but it's not ringing a bell actually, so
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: I'm excited about it.
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: If you need more of Terry true Crime, who's not here,
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: but she's here in Spirits and I, you can always
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: find us doing something on our True Crime and wide
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: time YouTube channel Terry is out for the next few weeks,
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: so there will be no Midday Missing until September. But
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: you guys, couch Court with Lama is Bad. Yes, right now,
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: we are currently covering the trial of Stephen Lawson, one
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: of the people who have been tried in the disappearance
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: and murder of Crystal Rogers. If you are unfamiliar with
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: the Crystal Rogers case, I did a huge deep dive
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: covering everything about her case, as well as other unsolved
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: cases in Bardstown, Kentucky, and we just wrapped up yesterday
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 1: the trial of Brooks House and Joseph Lawson, who are
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: also responsible. I guess I don't know. I have a
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: lot of opinions on them. They're probably unpopular ones, but
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: it's still worth a watch. I thought it was. It
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: wasn't you know, no Karen Reid trial, but it certainly
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: is interesting. So I encourage you. You can find all
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: of that in our Crystal Rogers playlist to catch up now.
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: If you haven't yet, please like this video, subscribe and
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: hit the notification bell so you don't miss when we
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: go live or drop an episode. And I forgot to
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: mention it this week but if you like the show
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: Big Brother that has nothing to do with true crime. Well, actually,
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: this year the theme is murder mystery, though they haven't
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: tapped into it at all, and I'm very annoyed about
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: that too.
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: Actually, I am so annoyed.
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: Who loves throwing murder mysteries?
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: It could be even a game of Clue all season,
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 2: and so I'm disappointed in them.
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: I'm so disappointing their production. Hire me, Big Brother, Come on,
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 1: I'm a good producer.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: Anyway, join our discord, the Courtyard, because here in about
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: fifteen minutes, I'm going to stream the live episode tonight
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 2: where they're getting evicted.
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: Anyway, we love true crime, we love reality TV. We
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: do both over on our discord.
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 2: That's where we all hang out when we're not live,
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: So you can find the link in chat or I
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: think in our about section or something like that. Now,
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: I want to thank Lady and Gray for being a
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: lovely co host tonight.
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: And last week she took a big gamble coming out
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: making her appearance as a co host. Round of a
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: clause for her, Everyone let her know she did an
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: amazing job in the comments section, and is there anything
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: you would like to say Before we we sign off.
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: I want to thank you for having me as co
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: host again. I've had so much fun doing this, and
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 2: I want to encourage other members of the team to
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: give this a try. And I am looking forward to
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 2: happen next week because I love when she does this
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: because she really I understand this is kind of like
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: her story, and if it's her story, she's really gonna
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: bring and it's gonna be amazing. I just know it.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 2: So I just want to thank everyone for being here.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: Come on this corn and watch Big Brother with us.
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: It's eviction night and not well.
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: Thank you everyone for listening and supporting us. Until next time,
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: take care of your mind, take care of each other,
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: and never stop asking the hard questions. Now go forth
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: and be well amazing.
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: Bye guys,